Epoxy opinion: MAS vs. West vs. System 3
WLH666
planked mahogany hull. M.A.S. Epoxy without the health and working
attributes of amines seems like a good choice. Any one have any experience
on working with this product in comparason with the old favorites West and
System Three.
W.I.mosher
working with an epoxy there are some things that you must be aware of, WEST is an A
type epoxy, much more expensive epoxies for jet aircraft assembly are F type. West
has an Amine type agent for curing, no solvents so when you lay on 3 mills you get 3
mills, with solvent curing Epoxy when you lay on 3 mills you may get
1.5 or so, so it actually shrinks. West is very permeable meaning it will soak into
the wood and adhear to it. lets say you are filling a crack between two boards in
your boat. and you apply West, it will adhear to the wood all around,will run deep
into the crack, and will be flexable enough to withstand the flexing on the hull
when set, and will keep moisture from intruding.
However The best thing about West is that they will give you the benefit of all of
the year of the Gougen Brothers boat yard for a song, you can buy step by step
pamphlets from them on wooden boat repairs, Fiberglass Boat repair for about $3.00,
They will also provide you with technical information on every thing you will be
wondering about once you get started and if you get into trouble just call them and
they will help you out. when you buy into west systems you are buying into a full
support network, it is like having a big brother there to help out when you need it.
Their epoxies are mixed with a pump system that is Idiot proof(almost). Failure of
most epoxies is usually caused by improper mix ratios.
Hope this helps! They also have a high tolerance for getting asked the same stupid
question more than once, and wont embarrass you for it. I should know! WIM
Albert Gunther
: I dont know anything about MAS but i do know a lot about WEST Epoxy. here goes, when
If I hadn't read the original post I might think W.I.mosher was bad
mouthing System Three. I suspect that's not the case, at any rate, I
might say that all the favorable things said might also apply to System
Three, certainly the quality of their products anf the free technical
services provided.
--
Al in Kingston, WA <----- 47 52'30"N/122 30'45"W
Don Welch
I've used both West and System 3, and would use either one again. Both worked
well, and have held up equally. Niether one scores higher in my experience
as far as quality goes. Price is the only thing I would base my decision on,
and for my area (Portland, Oregon) I get the best price and over-all value
on the System 3. Three gallon kit = $115.00. My .02 anyway....
Tom Shea
Welch) wrote:
>
> I've used both West and System 3, and would use either one again. Both worked
> well, and have held up equally. Niether one scores higher in my experience
> as far as quality goes. Price is the only thing I would base my decision on,
> and for my area (Portland, Oregon) I get the best price and over-all value
> on the System 3. Three gallon kit = $115.00. My .02 anyway....
Since the price issue has been raised, may we hear about the cheapest mail
order sources for these epoxies? I've found that Jamestown Distributors in
RI has the lowest prices for West products (4.35 gallons of 105 resin for
$173).
Are System Three products available from any discount mail order shops?
Thanks,
Tom
G. Mayner
If you have not tried the products from Raka Products you should try
them. They can be reached at rakac...@aol.com
I have nothing to do with them nor do I get anything from my
recommendations. I tried their epoxy as well as epoxies from the "Big
Two" and the only difference I see is fancy packaging and about US$35.00
per gallon in price.
Garry
KernHend
>>I have nothing to do with them [Raka] nor do I get anything from my
>>recommendations. I tried their epoxy as well as epoxies from the "Big
>>Two" [System Three & West System] and the only difference I see is fancy
>>packaging and about US$35.00 per gallon in price.
Let's see now:
How about technical support during normal business hours, prepaid delivery
[System Three], product support literature, troubleshooting, product
liability insurance, etc. Besides you are way off base on your $35.00 per
gallon difference.
Price is but one indication of value - not the sole determinent!
Kern
System Three Resins, Inc.
G. Mayner
G. Mayner <gma...@access2.digex.net> wrote:
<stuff deleted>
>
>
>If you have not tried the products from Raka Products you should try
>them. They can be reached at rakac...@aol.com
>
>I have nothing to do with them nor do I get anything from my
>recommendations. I tried their epoxy as well as epoxies from the "Big
>Two" and the only difference I see is fancy packaging and about US$35.00
>per gallon in price.
>
>Garry
After I posted this I got a note via e-mail from a person who appeared to
be a little miffed about it. I suppose he did not like the idea that I
was taking shots at his firm. I did not mean to offend any of the "Big
Two" or insult their products. I fully agree System Three and West are
great products that do well in boat building.
My note was simply meant to offer an alternative to buyers who don't need,
as my critic put it "prepaid shipping, technical support during business
hours, technical publications, product liability insurance",etc........
I was also mistaken about the price difference between Raka and the
others. The actual difference is closer to $15.00 or $20.00 per gallon.
I am sure a couple of hundred bucks on a small boat won't make any
difference the next time I decide to build one! :-)))
And to the guy who wrote to me: Try to cut back on the caffiene a
little.. :-)
Garry
KernHend
Garry Mayner <gma...@access2.digex.net> wrote:
<stuff deleted>
Not miffed at all! But when you state something as fact, "the only
difference I see is fancy packaging and about $35.00 per gallon in price",
you ought to get it right. System Three epoxy costs $37.87 per gallon
delivered to any US zip code (7.5 gallon kit) while West System epoxy
lists
for $55.16 per gallon (Group C 5.29 gallons, 11/1/95 price list) and can
generally be purchased at 20 to 25 per cent off list . At 25 per cent off
list the West System epoxy would come to $41.37 per gallon. Generally,
any
freight costs incurred in purchasing West System epoxy are paid by the
buyer
whereas System Three pays freight on all orders over $100 ($5.00 if
less than $100) to any US zipcode.
Mayner states that his "note was simply meant to offer an alternative to
buyers who don't need,as my critic put it, "prepaid shipping...." Well
now!
Shipping is part of the purchased cost isn't it? If the cheap source
charges
freight and the more "expensive" source doesn't, then any price comparison
has got to take this into account. This will run about $4 per gallon in
UPS
zone 5.
So the actual difference isn't even close to "$15.00 or $20.00 per
gallon".
It's more like $5 or $6 per gallon. Or maybe $35 or $40 on a small boat.
Mayner, however, states "I am sure a couple of hundred bucks on a small
boat
won't make any difference the next time I decide to build one!" A couple
of
hundred bucks WILL make a difference. But don't look for these savings
with
the cheap epoxy!
So what do you get when you pay a little more for epoxy "from the "Big
Two""?
Well, first off Gougeon Brothers and System Three have combined epoxy and
boat building experience in excess of 40 years. They have both "been
there,
done that". The literature of both companies reflects this. Furthermore,
both companies formulate their products. That is, they blend their
products
from some of the raw materials that the "cheap epoxy" companies simply
repackage. Included in these blends are additives that help flow &
leveling, help prevent cratering (fisheyes) from substrate contamination,
help prevent long term embrittlement that could lead to cracking, improve
the
wet out and adhesion to fiberglass, help prevent "clouding" when curing in
less than ideal conditions, etc.
All this adds to the cost of producing the product and must be reflected
in
the selling price. None of it will be worth anything to a boatbuilder
until
the first time he has the epoxy coating on his carefully crafted strip
plank
canoe turn cloudy. Then he will spend more in sandpaper costs than he
saved
on the epoxy and the boat will never look as good as it might have
otherwise.
As I stated in my first posting on this thread:
Price is but one indication of value - not the sole determinent!
-----
One of the things I love about the internet newsgroups is the combination
of
the shared sense of itimacy coupled with the ability to be uncivil when it
suits our pleasure. (We are, after all, complete strangers and if we
really
want to share and learn from each other we ought to mind our manners.
Otherwise, the more decent of us will simply drift away.) Mayner finishes
with "And to the guy who wrote to me: Try to cut back on the caffiene a
little.. :-)". BTW, Garry, I don't drink coffee.
Kern Hendricks
System Three Resins, Inc.
Seattle, WA
Dave C. Hale
I have been following this exchange and want to say don't get discouraged.
I personally appreciate your contributions, both technical and others. Have
been searching for a System Three Homepage (unsuccessfully). Is there
one??? Having used your product, I can say that the LACK of a strong and
offensive odor is one of the things I appreciate most about it.
Again, it would be 'right nice' if Sys 3 had a home page with some online
technical advice available...
(replys should be sent to:
pimi...@aol.com
my email addr at home)
Dave aka Pimiteoui
Tom Shea
wrote:
>
> You may order a copy of our price list (catalog) by calling 800/333-5514.
> Ask them to throw in a complementary copy of The Epoxy Book.
>
> Kern Hendricks
> System Three Resins, Inc.
> Seattle, WA
>
Actually, I went one better and ordered some Sytem Three Clear Coat epoxy
and some water reduceable Linear Polyurathane. I'm going to try this
combination in place of the West 105/207 covered by West 2-part LPU
varnish that I have previously used. I've been happy with the durability
of the West combination, but that particular varnish is not sold anymore
and the 207 hardener provides an odd color tint on some woods. There are
two other attractions for the System Three products in this application:
1. The Clear Coat epoxy is advertised to have extremely low viscosity and
I hope that it penetrates more for a better bond.
2. The water reduceable LPU should be much safer than the 2 part LPU that
I used to use. I really hope that I don't give up much durability.
I'll be happy to post some comments and comparisons after I gain a bit of
experience with the System Three products. Could anyone comment on
their experience with these or similar products?
Tom
Kevin Riley
I agree, how about a WWW page.
Be the first epoxy supplier out here.
*******************************************************
Kevin Riley, Boat builder, Woodworker, Tool maker
And all around Schooner Trash
"Real sailors sail gaff rig"
Kevin Riley
G. Mayner
>
>>>And to the guy who wrote to me: Try to cut back on the caffiene a
>little.. :-)
>
>
>Not miffed at all! But when you state something as fact, "the only
>difference I see is fancy packaging and about $35.00 per gallon in price",
>you ought to get it right.
I'll try to do better!!! :-)
<more stuff deleted!>
>
>Price is but one indication of value - not the sole determinent!
We agree on this one.
>
>-----
>
>One of the things I love about the internet newsgroups is the combination
>of
>the shared sense of itimacy coupled with the ability to be uncivil when it
>suits our pleasure. (We are, after all, complete strangers and if we
>really
>want to share and learn from each other we ought to mind our manners.
>Otherwise, the more decent of us will simply drift away.) Mayner finishes
>with "And to the guy who wrote to me: Try to cut back on the caffiene a
>little.. :-)". BTW, Garry, I don't drink coffee.
>
>Kern Hendricks
>System Three Resins, Inc.
>Seattle, WA
WOW! This thread is growing like mold on warm cheese! :-) I got a nice
note from Kern via e-mail. He has raised some good points here and
probably educated some of the folks who read the group.
If I appeared to not "mind my manners" I apologize. I had no idea a
difference of opinion might cause ruffled feathers. :-)
Kern brought up the point in e-mail that some people here might get
disturbed because he was posting a "commercial" message. I hope not! As
I said, he raised some good points and the prices discussed are no secret
if anyone wants to check suppliers.
I would like to see more of this type of exchange relative to almost any
material used in boat building. Every consumer needs to know what is
available and how to get it. It might add to healthy competition among
suppliers and ultimately result in better/cheaper products.
Soap box mode off...... :-)
To Kern: You *really* don't drink coffee????????? :-)))))))
Happy laminating to all.
Garry
Alex Schmoll
Mayner) wrote:
> In article <44pqgi$m...@access2.digex.net>,
> G. Mayner <gma...@access2.digex.net> wrote:
>
> <stuff deleted>
>
> >
> >
> >If you have not tried the products from Raka Products you should try
> >them. They can be reached at rakac...@aol.com
> >
> >I have nothing to do with them nor do I get anything from my
> >recommendations. I tried their epoxy as well as epoxies from the "Big
> >Two" and the only difference I see is fancy packaging and about US$35.00
> >per gallon in price.
> >
> >Garry
>
>
> After I posted this I got a note via e-mail from a person who appeared to
> be a little miffed about it. I suppose he did not like the idea that I
> was taking shots at his firm. I did not mean to offend any of the "Big
> Two" or insult their products. I fully agree System Three and West are
> great products that do well in boat building.
>
> My note was simply meant to offer an alternative to buyers who don't need,
> as my critic put it "prepaid shipping, technical support during business
> hours, technical publications, product liability insurance",etc........
>
> I was also mistaken about the price difference between Raka and the
> others. The actual difference is closer to $15.00 or $20.00 per gallon.
> I am sure a couple of hundred bucks on a small boat won't make any
> difference the next time I decide to build one! :-)))
>
>
> And to the guy who wrote to me: Try to cut back on the caffiene a
> little.. :-)
>
>
>
> Garry
Garry:
It seems you struck a sore spot with one of the manufacturers. Perhaps
there is a lesson to be learned here. I (who am not a professional boat
builder by any stretch of the imagination) am always on the look out for
ways to save money on my projects. If I didn't scrimp, they just wouldn't
happen. I'm sure many of the hobbyists who frequent this group are in the
same (if you will) boat.
Maybe Kern could have made his point a little more gently and/or
instructively. I certainly hope that his attitude is not representative of
that of System 3.
There is value in all the customer service items he cited. However
sometimes you've just got to save a buck. That's part of the fun of it.
Alex.
--
Alex Schmoll -- asch...@icis.on.ca
KernHend
>> Since the price issue has been raised, may we hear about the cheapest
mail
>>order sources for these epoxies? I've found that Jamestown Distributors
in
>>RI has the lowest prices for West products (4.35 gallons of 105 resin
for
>>$173).
>>Are System Three products available from any discount mail order shops?
West System epoxy is mostly distributed through the marine distribution
chain. Jamestown Distributors offers the product at a discounted price.
I haven't checked lately but I believe it is 25% off list. I believe you
will have to pay the freight charges if they ship this to you. If you
INSIST on using this product and have a local source you might want to
take the Jamestown catalog into your local outlet and do some bargaining.
The marine distribution chain generally works like this:
Manufacturer => Distibutor => Retailer => Customer
It is not unusual for the manufactuer to only get fifty cents of every
retail dollar. For him to make enought money to stay in business he
generally has to "adjust" the suggested retail price to a level that nets
him what he needs.
System Three Resins generally distributes like this:
Manufacturer => Customer
In some cases we do have distributors but these are generally fiberglass
supply houses as opposed to marine stores. We sell direct to end users of
our products via mail order. (UPS actually). As noted earlier freight is
prepaid on orders of $100 or more ($5 freight on anything less). We do
not discount off our price catalog. These prices are already less than
epoxy can be purchased from the marine mail order companies.
You may order a copy of our price list (catalog) by calling 800/333-5514.
Ask them to throw in a complementary copy of The Epoxy Book.
Kern Hendricks
System Three Resins, Inc.
Seattle, WA
PS. Sorry for the commercial guys. I wasn't even going to jump in on
this thread in the beginning but a reader posted a note insinuating that
we charged about $30 per gallon more than a new low priced guy. I had no
choice but to get involved.
KernHend
>>It seems you struck a sore spot with one of the manufacturers. Perhaps
>>there is a lesson to be learned here. I (who am not a professional boat
>>builder by any stretch of the imagination) am always on the look out for
>>ways to save money on my projects. If I didn't scrimp, they just
wouldn't
>>happen. I'm sure many of the hobbyists who frequent this group are in
the
>>same (if you will) boat.
>>Maybe Kern could have made his point a little more gently and/or
>>instructively. I certainly hope that his attitude is not representative
of
>>that of System 3.
Since when does correcting an error strike "a sore spot with one of the
manufacturers"? How could I have made my point "point a little more
gently and/or instructively"? I simply stated the facts surrounding the
pricing issue. They can be checked out by anyone. Garry admitted that he
may have overestimated the price difference a bit in a later posting. He
even went on to thank me on the forum for being instructive.
As far as your comment, "I certainly hope that his attitude is not
representative of
that of System 3", goes: This IS the attitude here at System Three!!! We
try to be honest, forthright and truthful with our customers, suppliers
and those we deal with. I set this policy as president of the company.
So what IS the " lesson to be learned here" anyway?
Kern Hendricks
System Three Resins, Inc
Seattle, WA
PaulBreed
I would like to see more vendors frequent the news groups.
It the discussions are factual and civil I think it improves the
information content of the net.
If the news group turned into a flame war between opposing vendors that
would not be so good ;-(
Paul Breed
KernHend
Things really do go better with Coke Cola. In moderation, of course.
Kern
KernHend
Kevin Riley <li...@radix.net> writes:
>>My server must be hiccuping
>>I did'nt post this twice
I got it twice
I got it twice
Kern
Kern
G. Mayner
In article <44vhmc$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
PaulBreed <paul...@aol.com> wrote:
>I think all posts by Kern etc... are reasonable and right on target.
>I would like to see more vendors frequent the news groups.
>It the discussions are factual and civil I think it improves the
>information content of the net.
>
Absolutely!!!!!! Kerns's comments were informative and appropriate for
this group. Maybe he will send out some free samples (10 gal should do
it) of resin and some cloth to practice with. :-))))) Just joking Kern!!!
>If the news group turned into a flame war between opposing vendors that
>would not be so good ;-(
I'm sure the readers here would tell any hard core flamers to take a hike.
Garry
Kevin
I would like to throw some experience with System 3 from a professional
shop.
The ASF Boat building school in Alexandria Va. uses System three almost
exclusively. This was Joe's idea (the schools Director and instructor)
and it was a new experience for all of us. We all used West up until
this point.
After using Sys3 for a vary short time we all are convinced.
What I like the most is the ease of use. The 2:1 ratio with a little
room for slop makes it easy to get right. I know West has the pumps, but
have you ever hade a pop of air come out of the pump and then try to use
that mix? Sys3 also has almost no smell at all, and what smell it has is
not unpleasant.
Another feature we like is how easy it is to tune the hardeners to your
own needs. The temperature here ranges from 30 deg in winter to 98 in
summer. (the shop has no heat) This stuff will kick in temperatures that
stop the others.
The only people I know that use MAS is Chesapeake Light Craft in
Annapolis. I don't have Chris's phone # handy but I think he lurks here
occasionally and might jump in with something on MAS
Stuart Wier
topic. More than one writer claimed that one of these three
epoxies, I won't say which one, softened under the kind of heat
you get on a normal summer day. Anyone else see that happen?
Stuart Wier
KernHend
Before we launch off into these unknown reef and shark infested waters; it
might be helpful to look at a little science:
There are two types of common plastics: thermoplastics (vinyl, nylon,
polyethylene, etc.) and thermosets (epoxy, polyester, melamine, phenolic,
etc.). The characteristic of thermoplastics is that they can melt.
Thermosets can not melt but all will "soften" at elevated temperatures.
Some thermoset materials are already soft at room temperatures. Moisture
cured urethanes (3M 5200 and others) are a good example of this. Two part
polysulfide rubbers used as teak deck caulks are another example.
All thermoset plastics have a physical characteristic known as the glass
transition temperature. It is a point at which the material most rapidly
transitions from a glass like (hard) material to a rubber like (soft)
material. It can be determined for any material by plotting the modulus
(resistance to bending, for example) versus temperature. One simple
determines the modulus at various temperatures and plots these on a graph.
The point at which the reverse S shaped curve is the steepest is the
glass transition temperature (which is abbreviated, Tg).
Raising the temperature of an epoxy resin above its Tg does not damage the
resin so long as it was not charred or burned. In fact, resin systems
like System Three's Phase Two epoxy or Gougeon's Proset resins must be
post cured (further cured after initial set up) above their room
temperature Tgs to achieve ultimate cure and maximum Tg.
When you cure an epoxy system you generally get a Tg about 30 to 40F
higher than the curing temperature. It is entirely possible to cure a
resin system and then find that raising its temperature will cure further.
This is what happens with Phase Two or Proset epoxies. In fact, these
higher temperature systems actually "lock up" at room temperature and must
be post cured or they will never fully cure. Their Tg is raised in the
process to its ultimate maximum for the resin system
Lower Tg systems like West System, System Three and others will generally
reach full cure (maximum Tg) by curing around 80-90F. Raising their
temperatures will generally not produce much further cure. However, if
they are cured at 50F they will further cure when the temperature rises.
When any epoxy system is warmed above its Tg it will also change slightly
in volume. If it was not fully cured and this occurs the volume will
change slightly, the Tg will rise and "print through" (the appearance of
the weave pattern/wood grain in the finish) will occur. This is why if
you are building a boat in a cool environment you ought to get the thing
warmed to 80 to 90F prior to final fairing and painting. Otherwise, you
risk print through on the first warm day. It is also why you should be
cautious about painting your boat a dark color. Print through can occur
whenever the surface temperature exceeds to Tg of the resin.
So why don't wood/epoxy boats fall apart if it gets really hot?
There are several reasons. First, even above the Tg the epoxy will likely
still have sufficient tensile, compressive, flexural and shear strengths
to do the job. At room temperature epoxies probably have a "safety"
factor of 3 or 4. Above the Tg the factor may fall to 1.5 or 2 but this
is still sufficient. The second reason is that wood is a good insulating
material and even if the skin temperature rises above the Tg the glue
joints probably will not. Finally, bonding strength is not simply a
function of the Tg. 3M 5200 has a Tg below freezing yet it is a tenacious
adhesive.
Is this an issue you should worry about? What precautions should you
take?
Worrying about this subject is like worrying about falling into a crack
during the next earthquake. Boatbuilding epoxies have Tgs more than
sufficient to do the job. You could, however, raise the skin temperature
on a hot July day with the sun beating down on the boat hot enough (paint
it a dark color or lay something dark on it for several hours) so that the
epoxy would soften enough to dent it with a screwdriver or your
fingernail. Once it cools it will again be quite hard.
Now all this assumes you got the resin/hardener ratio correct and mixed it
thoroughly. The maximum Tg of the system occurs when you get these
correct.
All this is why epoxy suppliers recommend that wood/epoxy boats be painted
a light color. Paint it light and you minimize the problems described.
So why don't epoxy suppliers provide the highest Tg products possible? Is
there a difference between the Tg of the various resin systems?
Any epoxy system (like any boat) is a compromise. When you want a high Tg
system you are generally going to give up resilience and impact
resistance. Raising the Tg (we'd change the chemical characteristics of
the system to do this) produces a more brittle system. (We get around
this in our Phase Two epoxy in a way beyond the scope of our current
discussion). If the epoxy system is too brittle then it may fail to do
one of its most important jobs in wood/epoxy boat building: Protect the
wood from moisture. Brittle systems are highly prone to microcracking.
This is further aggravated in a wood/epoxy system because the wood is
organic and will slowly move over time due to moisture cycling, stressing,
etc. These microcracks can allow in infusion of moisture into the wood.
The designer of any formulated epoxy system (System Three, West System,
etc.) makes an appraisal of the intended use translates this into desired
physical properties, gets out the chemical recipe book and puts together a
system that he then tests to make sure that what he formulated does what
he wants it to do. All the time he takes into account that when he
changes one property he usually changes one or more others. So he ends up
balancing these properties to achieve the results he wants. The ultimate
test of his system only comes after years of use in actual situations.
Brian Dixon
>I think all posts by Kern etc... are reasonable and right on target.
>I would like to see more vendors frequent the news groups.
>It the discussions are factual and civil I think it improves the
>information content of the net.
>
>would not be so good ;-(
>
Hear, Hear! I wish people would just read for usable content and quit
peeing into the wind at each other. Kern's post was fine by me, and there's
no secrets about prices (including Raka's) and about what you get for those
prices. One point not made (I don't think) is also the background and
development that you get with either System III or with WEST versus Raka
and other newer companies. Epoxies exist in hundreds of different types
and formulations, and like metal alloys, sometimes only differ a little
in what's in them. But also like alloys, those little differences can
sometimes be a *big* difference to your project and its intended use. If
you decide to save money and go with an outfit with less development and
reputation, then fine. If you want to pay for that reputation and development
and take the risk of inflated prices then fine. Whatever floats your boat.
I, BTW, chose to go with a name brand epoxy supplier, and sorry to say it
wasn't System III. It was WEST. The only reason was because I'm a first-
timer and the builder/designer of the design I'm building is a WEST supplier
and I just kept things simple by buying a lot of my supplies from him, and
also so that when I had boat and epoxy-specific questions he could answer
me directly. But next time, I may very well go with System III. I like an
awful lot about their epoxies and if weren't for the reasons stated above,
I'd have just gone with them.
Brian
Brian Dixon
>Absolutely!!!!!! Kerns's comments were informative and appropriate for
>this group. Maybe he will send out some free samples (10 gal should do
>it) of resin and some cloth to practice with. :-))))) Just joking Kern!!!
>
Do what I did and send for S3's epoxy trial kit...it's somewhere around $14
or so and it was nice to try (good stuff) and it did a great job fixing
my wife's broken cutting board too (grinz). I was impressed with how the
stuff sucked into each tiny crack in the wood. Beats Elmer's any day (haha).
Brian
Alex Schmoll
(PaulBreed) wrote:
> I think all posts by Kern etc... are reasonable and right on target.
> I would like to see more vendors frequent the news groups.
> It the discussions are factual and civil I think it improves the
> information content of the net.
>
I've got agree very strongly.If more of the guys "who make the stuff" get
involved in the group, it'll (hopefully) clear up a lot of misconceptions
about various products, services and ideas about how to get things done.
They're (presumably) the experts, right?
I would not like to see blatant unsolicited advertising posted on the
group. But on the other hand, it seems to me that "early netiquette" is a
little hard on people who actually are associated with a particular
manufacturer. If the information given is a valid part of a discussion
based on experience, knowledge or research, why should we discredit (or
dis-allow) the source because he/she is
a member of X or Y Corp?
Alex
Alex Schmoll
(stuff deleted)...system 3...
>
> Another feature we like is how easy it is to tune the hardeners to your
> own needs. The temperature here ranges from 30 deg in winter to 98 in
> summer. (the shop has no heat) This stuff will kick in temperatures that
> stop the others.
>
Kevin:
Have you really been able to use the epoxy (System 3) down to 30 degrees
F.? My shop is unheated as well, and I'm trying to figure out some sort of
solution so that I can do a bit of work this winter. What's the lowest
temp you've had succes with.
Does working at this cold temperature effect the durability of the glue?
KernHend
>>Have you really been able to use the epoxy (System 3) down to 30 degrees
>>F.? My shop is unheated as well, and I'm trying to figure out some sort
of
>>solution so that I can do a bit of work this winter. What's the lowest
>>temp you've had succes with.
>>Does working at this cold temperature effect the durability of the glue?
Alex:
This is Kern getting the "science" side in.
That is getting a little on the cold side. We say that you can use it
down to 35F (with our fast Hardener #1). But it will be very slow. The
rule of thumb is that for every 10C (18F) change in temperature the cure
rate will halve or double depending on the way you go. For example, if it
takes 24 hours to reach a sandable state at 70F, then it will take 48 at
52F, 96 hours at 34F. The glass transition temperature will be fairly low
due to the low curing temperature ( see an earlier post on heat softening
of epoxy, Tg, etc. on 10/06/95 in this thread). It will probably have
sufficient strength so that you can get on with your work. When the
weather warms up it will complete curing.
So long as any glue joints are not stretched beyond their elastic limit,
they will end up being just as good as a glue joint done in warmer weather
if the ultimate curing temperature is the same.
The rub comes in when you try to sand a thin film of epoxy that has been
cured for 96 hours at 34F. You are probably going to heat it enough
(friction) to raise the temperature locally well above the Tg. Heating it
this fast will cause it to partially melt prior to crosslinking. The
result is gummed sandpaper.
If it is necessary to "sand" it you will probably do better using a
cabinet scraper.
For the reasons stated in the Tg post you should not do your finishing
work without at least heating it to warm room temperature.
Bill Holt
For a period of 5 years, about 10 years ago, I built a boat making
extensive use of epoxy. The design was a YM Wild Duck, one of a series
sponsored in the 40's & 50's by the Yachting Monthly magazine, and
now represented by the Eventide (one of the designs) Owners Association.
They had builders meets, and I went to about 5 or 6. Of the builders
using epoxy, all the ones using using cheaper unknown brands had
become sensitised. The 3 using West or SP Systems, including me,
had survived the experience without becoming sensitive to the stuff.
I always suspected that the difference was only that the people
using the cheaper formulations could afford to slosh it around more,
but it would be interesting to know if that is right.
Back then, in England, there was a big difference in price.
Since then I've always (pardon the pun) stuck to the name brands.
Any other EOA members read this list?
--
Bill Holt bi...@itsound.demon.co.uk
Kevin Riley
We hav used S3 as cold as 35 or 40 deg. We keep it in a warm, insulated
box. A 60 watt light bulb is what we use to keep the box warm. It helps
if you put some heat (like a hot shop lamp) on the parts your fastening.
As to the strength and durability we have seen no problems to date.
Ron Dwelle
problems with the epoxy kicking off. Temperatures were generally 25-50F.
When I've used WEST, I've had to be sure to use the "fast" hardener. I
have no way to measure whether or not the strength of the epoxy was
compromised.
KernHend
>>Just to go off at a bit of a tangent:
>>For a period of 5 years, about 10 years ago, I built a boat making
>>extensive use of epoxy. The design was a YM Wild Duck, one of a series
>>sponsored in the 40's & 50's by the Yachting Monthly magazine, and
>>now represented by the Eventide (one of the designs) Owners Association.
>>They had builders meets, and I went to about 5 or 6. Of the builders
>>using epoxy, all the ones using using cheaper unknown brands had
>>come sensitised. The 3 using West or SP Systems, including me,
>>had survived the experience without becoming sensitive to the stuff.
>>always suspected that the difference was only that the people
>>using the cheaper formulations could afford to slosh it around more,
>>it would be interesting to know if that is right.
>>Back then, in England, there was a big difference in price.
>>Since then I've always (pardon the pun) stuck to the name brands.
All room temperature cured epoxy resin systems use amines or polyamides
(or mixtures of both) in the hardener systems. These materials are
alkaline and can cause sensitization from prolonged and repeated contact
in susceptable individuals. Skin contact must occur in order for
sensitization to develop. However, once developed it is possible for a
sensitized person to break out if he is merely in a room with curing
epoxy. There is no such thing as a "safe" amine/polyamide containing
epoxy harderner system from a skin sensitization standpoint.
The key to avoiding sensitization is to never contact uncured
epoxy/hardener. You can easily do this by wearing gloves. Because of the
low vapor pressure of epoxy/hardener ingredients it is not necessary to
wear a charcoal respirator. One should always wear a good particle mask
when sanding anything, epoxy included.
Kern Hendricks
System Three Resins, Inc.
Seattle, WA
Harnois
All this is the most interesting.
Where can we get System Three products in Montréal?
Thank you
KernHend
>>Where can we get System Three products in Montréal?
System Three is poorly represented in eastern Canada.
We do, however, ship directly to Canadian boatbuilders via UPS (United
Parcel Service). We charge 10% of the invoiced amount for freight. UPS
then acts as customs broker collecting the GST and appropriate Provencial
taxes. For this the get a small fee - usually about CAN$20-25. I do not
believe there is any duty on epoxy going into Canada.
We have been doing this for about three years and it is working out quite
well.