Which Filler for Stitch and Glue?
Donnici,Charley
and searching the net trying to decide which filler is better for a
stitch and glue boat.
I have heard wood flour, micro-balloons, BONDO?, and other strange
concoctions...
I think the criteria should be the filler that gives the best strength,
with the least amount of weight added to the boat....
That is what I am looking for anyway...
Also, is there something I can use that would be readily available as a
filler? (i.e. talc?)
Robert Lundy
glass cloth), but haven't needed a fillet yet. Lets look at the items you
mentioned:
Wood Flour-seems OK, cheap makes thick hard stuff
Microballons-mostly used for fairing, sands real easily, weakens the epoxy
(basically you're adding bubbles to the epoxy-thats what makes it easy to
sand
BONDO-lets leave this till last
You didn't mention:
Colloidal silica-this seems to be the choice of most of the posts I've
read-makes an ultra hard joint
Talc-I heard of this only a few times
Pulverized limestone-Dave Carnell reccommends this and its cheap-have read
good success
Now for BONDO-BONDO or any other automotive type filler (NAPA makes "CUZ) is
usually based on a polyester resin-so if you're going to use poluester resin
& cloth to cover the boat, use bondo-just don't mix polyester based stuff
and epoxy on the boat.
NOTE: The mention of polyester and epoxy in the same post is not grounds to
start that topic over again for the millionth time.
Robert Lundy
St. Petersburg, Fla.
see progress at http://www.seawyse.com/flboatyard
"Donnici,Charley" <CDON...@cerner.com> wrote in message
news:D15ED542E12BD3119FFE00805F6551F006812C95@MAILWHQNEWS...
Lloyd Bowles
"Robert Lundy" <rlu...@cityisp.net> wrote in message
news:387fa...@news.city-guide.com...
>
> Now for BONDO-BONDO or any other automotive type filler (NAPA makes "CUZ)
is
> usually based on a polyester resin-so if you're going to use poluester
resin
> & cloth to cover the boat, use bondo-just don't mix polyester based stuff
> and epoxy on the boat.
I haven't used Bondo autobody filler in many years. I remember it as heavy
& weak, not what I'd want on a boat.
Canadian Tire stores sell a Bondo epoxy marine resin, to be mixed 1:1.
I've used it for small jobs & it seemed okay. I prefer epoxy from the big
name companies.
--
Lloyd Bowles
The Mad Canoeist
"Keep the open side up!"
http://www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc
John Abercrombie
>Ok all I am probably going to start a war but, I have been searching
>and searching the net trying to decide which filler is better for a
>stitch and glue boat.
>
>I have heard wood flour, micro-balloons, BONDO?, and other strange
>concoctions...
>
Well, if expense doesn't matter the best stuff I've found is WEST
Filleting Blend #405 (surprise!).
Usually I use a blend of colloidal silica (Cabosil) and microballoons.
If you do it right you won't have much sanding to do, so the hardness
of the Cabosil shouldn't be a problem.
Talc is heavy, but cheap. Good stuff for keeping your gloves dry and
non-sticky when doing epoxy work.
John
Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
then Cabosil (Aerosil), i.e. fumed silica, is the only choice. For
fillets in a stitch and glue boat, I've used a blend of Aerosil and
glass microspheres with very good results. The silica is needed anyhow
in order not to have the fillet material sagging down from
non-horizontal places. Many suggest wood flour, to be used as it is
without anything else, but I understand that the one from under the
table saw is not exactly right because too rough.
One thing: those powders are extremely fine and light and fly
everywhere, so wear a dust mask when playing with them. Good luck, Pippo
In article <D15ED542E12BD3119FFE00805F6551F006812C95@MAILWHQNEWS>,
"Donnici,Charley" <CDON...@cerner.com> wrote:
> Ok all I am probably going to start a war but, I have been searching
> and searching the net trying to decide which filler is better for a
> stitch and glue boat.
>
> I have heard wood flour, micro-balloons, BONDO?, and other strange
> concoctions...
>
> I think the criteria should be the filler that gives the best
strength,
> with the least amount of weight added to the boat....
>
> That is what I am looking for anyway...
>
> Also, is there something I can use that would be readily available as
a
> filler? (i.e. talc?)
>
>
--
Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
Matera, Italy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Marvin
of using a corser filler?
And, Has anyone ever tried using baking flour (Wheat flour) as a filler? I
have no idea where I can find wood floor. Anyone I have asked, looked at me
like I was nuts and I really don't feel like shipping 'dust' accross the
country.
The little bit that I did find was the dust from a table saw that was doing
finish cuts of particleboard baseboards. I have never seen such fine stuff
from a table saw before. But this isn't going to last me long at all.
Marvin
Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:85qttt$clh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Lloyd Bowles
"Marvin" <nik...@ecn.mb.ca> wrote in message
news:wesg4.24102$Vj3.3...@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca...
> What would it matter how corse the filler is? Or, what is the
disadvantage
> of using a corser filler?
Epoxy & coarse filler is lumpy & hard to spread evenly. Then it must be
sanded to look good.
> I have no idea where I can find wood floor.
Use a belt or disc sander on some wood & collect the dust. I found that
wood flour darkens when mixed with epoxy so you may want to choose a light
colour wood. Pine flour & epoxy seems to be a good colour match for okoume
plywood. Pine sands quickly.
John Abercrombie
>And, Has anyone ever tried using baking flour (Wheat flour) as a filler?
Yup. It works ok for non-critical jobs.
Also, it is cheap.
However, since you can buy enough silica and microballoons for a small
boat project for $20 or less, I would only bother with homebrew
substitutes in an "emergency" (Sunday afternoon, stores closed, etc.)
With the cost of lumber (and abrasives) nowadays, I sure would not
sand up lumber to make my own wood flour.
The other thing to consider is how well different fillers "stretch"
your epoxy supply. I found wood dust to be quite "thirsty" for epoxy -
this increases the cost.
John
Nick White
>What would it matter how corse the filler is? Or, what is the disadvantage
>of using a corser filler?
You end up with two problems (at least).
Firstly, the filler does not 'soak up" the glue (mix with it evenly),
so you don't get an even, non-sagging mix, but lumps of wood with
runny glue in between. To get it thick enough not to run everywhere,
you need to make it too doughy to work easily, or get into tight
spaces.
Secondly, the final finish tends to be very rough, and can be hard to
sand, as the glue sits in relatively large pools, and clogs sandpaper,
even if it's set completely.
>The little bit that I did find was the dust from a table saw that was doing
>finish cuts of particleboard baseboards. I have never seen such fine stuff
>from a table saw before. But this isn't going to last me long at all.
I would be wary of that. It will have other glues etc in it from when
it was made, and this could interfere with either the setting or
reliability of the epoxy
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
(please remove ns from my header email address to reply)
....damn spam
!!
<")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/
Donnici,Charley
Thanks for the advice. It has saved me hours upon hours of searching
the internet for this information.
Ok. This is what I have so far:
Wood Flour - seems OK, cheap makes thick hard stuff, but I found wood
dust to be quite "thirsty" for epoxy -
this increases the cost
Microballons - mostly used for fairing, sands real easily, weakens the
epoxy
(basically you're adding bubbles to the epoxy-that's what makes it easy
to
sand
Colloidal silica - this seems to be the choice of most of the posts I've
read-makes an ultra hard joint
Talc - Is heavy but cheap...
Pulverized limestone - Dave Carnell recommends this and its cheap-have
read good success
Wheat Flour - It works ok for non-critical jobs.
Also, it is cheap.
Other:
WEST Filleting Blend #405 is the best stuff I've found.
Epoxy & coarse filler is lumpy & hard to spread evenly. Then it must be
sanded to look good.
I've used a blend of Aerosil and
glass microspheres with very good results.
Any other suggestions? Once again, Thanks.
Charley Donnici
Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
"Donnici,Charley" <CDON...@cerner.com> wrote:
> Any other suggestions? Once again, Thanks.
Yes: milled glass fibers in epoxy (and a bit of silica) make the
strongest structural fillet. Cheers!
Lew Hodgett
>
> Ok all I am probably going to start a war but, I have been searching
> and searching the net trying to decide which filler is better for a
> stitch and glue boat.
Don't know where you are located.
Grefco, Torrance, Ca sells Dicaperl, HP-500, in 30 lb bags (4 cubic ft
bag). It is expanded perlite (8 lbs/cubic ft) and does a great job of
making fairing compound.
For small quanties, less than 10 bags at a time, my cost is $0.62/lb.
It's mined in Colorado, so your cost may be different just based on
shipping costs.
Locate an industrial specialty chemical distributor in your area as a
potential vendor. Will probably be the same outfit that also handles
Cab-O-Sil or AeroSil.
If all else fails, call Grefco and find out who the distributor is
that serves your area.
There is no future trying to screw around saving a few pennies by
using junk fillers when HP-500 is so low cost.
HTH
Lew
S/A: Challenge (Under Construction, still fairing in the Southland)
Visit:<http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> For Pictures
LOUIS DE WIT
I can think of one important missing and that's cotton. You can get it in
different shapes and thikness. Advantage is the fibre likestructure wich
means you make your epoxy stronger. It's easy to sand, but difficult to even
out. There are tricks for this.
Succes,
Louis
"Donnici,Charley" wrote:
> Any other suggestions? Once again, Thanks.
>
> Charley Donnici
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donnici,Charley
> Posted At: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:39 PM
> Posted To: building
> Conversation: Which Filler for Stitch and Glue?
> Subject: Which Filler for Stitch and Glue?
>
> Ok all I am probably going to start a war but, I have been searching
> and searching the net trying to decide which filler is better for a
> stitch and glue boat.
>
JACQUES_MERTENS
we see in this group?
Usually, the designer specifies a filler and to use a different one will not
change much. You may save $ 2.00 on complete boat . . .
If the fillet is taped over, microballoons with some silica for thixotropy
are the best choice but for a small boat, it may not be worth the troubles
to use two different fillers. We use wood flour in our smaller boats.
An advantage of wood flour is the color: it can be varnished.
If the fillet is structural (no tape), glass fibers will be our choice.
--
Jacques Mertens
Boat Plans OnLine
http://www.bateau.com
Donnici,Charley wrote in message ...
Stbdtac
known as DE Filter Powder. H. Depot carries it for coating swimming pool
filters. 25lbs for $9.93 Mixes well, nice consistancy, sands on the hard
side.
FWIW
Terry C
Dan Bollinger
Yumm.
"Stbdtac" <stb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000121205510...@ng-da1.aol.com...
dwe...@gvsu.edu
filler like microballons is much easier to fair off.
Nick White
<danbol...@home.com> wrote:
>Diatomaceous. Dead sea algae carcasses, also used in toothpaste. :^)
>Yumm.
You'll wonder where the barnacles went, when you build your boat with
pepsodent <G>
Lew Hodgett
> Also
> known as DE Filter Powder. H. Depot carries it for coating swimming > pool
> filters. 25lbs for $9.93 Mixes well, nice consistancy, sands on the > hard
> side.
DE comes in about 18-20 lbs/cubic foot. One of the major deposits of
DE is here in California near Lompoc and the people who process it are
my customers.
My supplier sells both DE and Dicaperl. The DE comes from here in
California and the Dicaperl is shipped in from Colorado.
They sell DE for filter material.
They sell Dicaperl for filler material.
Enuf said?