Bateau Cheap Canoe....?
James W. Sloan
I've found a couple of creeks I want to explore and I've decided to put
together the Bateau "Cheap Canoe". I don't expect much given that the plans
are free and the materials minimal. Anyone built one to these plans? Any
changes I should make? Is this a stable canoe (13' x 30") or is it
tender/tippy? Should I add a small keel? I'll likely use Luan and
epoxy/glass ( I have enough left over from other projects to go with the
"cheap" theme!).
Thanks in advance,
James
Ed Edelenbos
falls under IMO) are relatively tippy. As long as you stay low in the
boat, you should be ok. Personally, from looking at the design, I'd add
an oak 1x1 keel down the center.
Maybe Jacques will chime in...
Ed
James W. Sloan
aspect ratio would give it more stability than a rounded or V'ed bottom.
There's a ton of plans out there for similar craft, but these are free and
well organized.
I'm 5'11 and 200# so, staying low is probably good advice, the plans hint at
this by the exclusion of anything other than a floor seat anyway.
I've never seen a true flat bottom track worth a hoot without some sort of
keel. I'll cobble some spare stock into one, I'm thinking about 3/4 length
or so. I live in coastal Georgia and it drives me crazy to pass up perfectly
good creeks through the marshes where my powerboat dare not venture...at
least the mud bottom is quite forgiving ! I suppose its one of those
"because its there" attitudes, but I can't help feeling that all the good
fish are somewhere up those creeks.
> From what I've read (no real experience), pirogues (which this boat
> falls under IMO) are relatively tippy. Personally, from looking at the
design, I'd add
> an oak 1x1 keel down the center.
Rick Tyler
Any unballasted, narrow, flat-bottomed boat is going to be pretty
tippy (a ballasted keel on a canoe -- now that's a thought...). I
recently had the opportunity to share a 16-foot Royalex canoe with
another adult, and our combined weight made it so tippy we turned
around, went back to the dock and switched to a rowboat. It would
have worked better with a couple hundred pounds of gear on the floor,
or with us not using the seats.
Jacques shows a seat in the Cheap Canoe that is only a couple of
inches above the floor. If you stay low, you'll be fine.
- Rick Tyler
William R. Watt
all canoes are tippy. you have to get used to using them. like riding a bike.
flat bottom canoes track good. its not the flat bottom but the length to
beam ratio, curvature of the bottom fore-and-aft (called "rocker"),
and in a wind the height of the ends ("windage)" which deterime how well a
canoe tracks. a solo canoe is paddled heeled over sitting amidships to one
side which does put a hard chined canoe at a disadvantage. a lot of small
canoes are paddled flat with a double paddle like a kayak and they would
track better that way.
13 ft by 30 inches is normal for a solo canoe. the sides should be about 1
foot high. you can email the seller of the plans to ask what the capacity
is at 4" of draft and at 6" of freeboard. canoes are normally designed to
draw 4" in normal use. that's where they should perform best. a canoe with
less than 6" of freeboard is overloaded.
good luck.
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James W. Sloan
> all canoes are tippy. you have to get used to using them. like riding a
bike.
Yep...I've managed to roll myself out of a 17 foot aluminum canoe in flat
calm water!
> 13 ft by 30 inches is normal for a solo canoe. the sides should be about 1
> foot high.
OK...I just never had the proportions visualized. I was wondering if this
was close to "normal" for a solo canoe. The sides are cut 1 foot wide with a
1 3/8 relief for some rocker. Looks like the end result is 10 5/8 high by
the plans, given the nesting on two sheets, I'll add what's available as a
little extra freeboard.
> you can email the seller of the plans to ask what the capacity
> is at 4" of draft and at 6" of freeboard.
The plans were free from Jaques at bateau.com. I'll check the site for some
info, I hate to bug the guy on a freebie, especially for such a simple
boat!! What the heck, I'll just put her together and give it a shot. If its
too tender for me, I'll pass it along to a nephew.
Thanks,
James
Wiz
you've got a bone in your teeth now; run with it. I've been screwing my mouth
up when I read that a pirogue is "tippy", so I'll go ahead and out with it...
tippy is relative; take three boats in the same size range a baidarka, a
round-bottom (or multi-chine) canoe, and a pirogue. Go out paddling in each.
You'll come back raving about how stable the pirogue is.
Remember, these things, and their dugout predecessors, were designed to be
propelled by a (skilled) man poling the boat while *standing* near the stern.
I suspect you'll find it quite stable for your uses.
Cheers/The Fader
> I hate to bug the guy on a freebie, especially for such a simple
>boat!! What the heck, I'll just put her together and give it a shot. If its
>too tender for me, I'll pass it along to a nephew.
"LABOR SVGIT"
Andrew Butchart
can feel a bit "tippy" when you get into it - especially depending on your
weight - I'm 220lbs. I've found that it can tip over quite far and actually
gets more "stiff" as it goes - until the gunwale gets under water .... I've
only capsized mine once and that was on purpose. It also works well on very
"thin" water - it practically floats on spit.
I didn't fibreglass my boat, but did use Luan for the construction. I
squeegeed epoxy onto the wood to make it water resistant and then put on a
couple of coats of paint. It's held up well for me and it's a lot cheaper
to build without the fibreglass even though it won't last as long.
I did add a small skeg and some floatation chambers to mine. The skeg has
helped with tracking quite a bit.
There's a discussion board over on bateau.com - or at least there was a
while ago. Lots of people discuss this design there.
--
Andrew Butchart
and...@abutchartconsulting.com
http://www.abutchartconsulting.com/sailing/ - The Floating Bear
"James W. Sloan" <james...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
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Backyard Renegade
> James,
>
> you've got a bone in your teeth now; run with it. I've been screwing my mouth
> up when I read that a pirogue is "tippy", so I'll go ahead and out with it...
> tippy is relative; take three boats in the same size range a baidarka, a
> round-bottom (or multi-chine) canoe, and a pirogue. Go out paddling in each.
> You'll come back raving about how stable the pirogue is.
>
> Remember, these things, and their dugout predecessors, were designed to be
> propelled by a (skilled) man poling the boat while *standing* near the stern.
>
> I suspect you'll find it quite stable for your uses.
>
And I will add my 2 cents here. I say, use the luan, do not glass it,
just paint it and put it in the water. Glassing that boat will only
add weight and cost, still got a 5-10 year boat, max...
Scotty from SmallBoats.com
James W. Sloan
"feel" of just about any boat, but true tippiness is another thing. Since we
have a substantial alligator population where I intend to use this thing, I
want to have some reasonable expectations before paddling off the marsh's
edge. I don't mind canoeing among them, I just try not to swim that much!!
What mods did you make to the original plan? I thought about adding an inch
or two of freeboard, enough to matter but not interfere with arm motion. I
also thought about some flotation chambers, perhaps in the stem & stern
areas. These should be easy enough to enclose and fill.
I'm sure I have enough tape to do the inside and outside seams, I might have
enough 50" 6oz. to do the bottom and outer sides. I'll definitely seal it
all well with epoxy. I was at Home Depot (I know...I know) today looking at
the ply they have in stock, saw something called "Sanderply" (not superply)
that looks a lot like 1/4 MDO although none of the help knew a thing about
it.
Thanks,
James
Rick Tyler
<james...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>That's exactly what I was interested in....I can get accustomed to the
>"feel" of just about any boat, but true tippiness is another thing. Since we
>have a substantial alligator population where I intend to use this thing, I
>want to have some reasonable expectations before paddling off the marsh's
>edge. I don't mind canoeing among them, I just try not to swim that much!!
>
>What mods did you make to the original plan? I thought about adding an inch
>or two of freeboard, enough to matter but not interfere with arm motion.
<snip>
As I recall, the nesting plans for the Cheap Canoe are really tight.
Your extra inch or two of freeboard might double your plywood
requirement.
- Rick Tyler
--
"Ignorant voracity -- a wingless vulture -- can soar only into the
depths of ignominy." Patrick O'Brian
James W. Sloan
closer to the bottom cutout, take away room from the seat and breasthook.
Heck I might pick up a 1/2 sheet or just use some scrap wood for the smaller
bits. Since I'm doing this as a "cheap canoe", the bottom line may go up $20
or so.
Backyard Renegade
> From what I've read (no real experience), pirogues (which this boat
> falls under IMO) are relatively tippy. As long as you stay low in the
> boat, you should be ok. Personally, from looking at the design, I'd add
> an oak 1x1 keel down the center.
Almost. The real problem with Pirogues, and I have built and paddled a
few, is that initially they were used by cajuns to stand and pole
around the Bayou with no real concern as to which way the boat was
pointed... This creates a problem however when you want the boat to
paddle or row in straight, especially if there is any movement to the
water. Now when you convert this to a paddle or row boat you want to
have the directional stability of a rear skeg (can be full length) I
usually have mine start at 3/4 x 3/4 in the bow as you suggested, but
about mid hull start to taper out to about 2 1/2 to 3 inches high a
few inches forward of the stern. It is still a little tough to paddle
these things, I have not built Bateau's version, but the skeg helps a
lot. Maybe Jaques has one in the plan, forgive me if I did not look
and that is the case... if it is already there... nevermind.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com
Ed Edelenbos
say so I went and did a little research (mostly web searching).
Apparently, (and this is probably why this boat is labeled as a canoe)
traditionally pirogues have more beam. The narrowest I found was about
35 inches... a good 16% added. This makes sense if they are going to
be poled or paddled by a standing pilot... the more beam, the more
stable the boat is. Of course like another post said, these were
_skilled_ (meaning experienced) boatmen of this style. A skill that
could be learned but I'd bet you ought to be up on your swimming skills
before you start out the first time (grin).
Ed
Jacques Mertens
> falls under IMO) are relatively tippy. As long as you stay low in the
> boat, you should be ok. Personally, from looking at the design, I'd add
> an oak 1x1 keel down the center.
>
> Maybe Jacques will chime in...
> Ed
>
It's a nice boat but small. Not as stable as a big heavy wide fibegrlass
canoe but more stable than a kayak.
You can add runners or a keel but I would not use oak: some types do not
bond well with epoxy. Fir is just fine.
To see what other did with that plan and how they customized it, see their
web sites. There are more than 10 Cheap Canoe web sites here:
http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/modules.php?name=Web_Links&l_op=viewlink&
cid=17
I like this one:
http://home.student.uva.nl/b.a.m.loeff/kano/Engels/index.htm
Jacques Mertens
were made with 1" thick planks, the weight added stability, inertia.
Our modern plywood boats are light, easier to move but less stable.
--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com
"Wiz" <too...@aol.comSPAMKILL> wrote in message
news:20030705070910...@mb-m21.aol.com...
Richard Cunningham
I just built one of these while waiting for my order of marine ply to come
in so I can get to work on a Michalak Vamp I;ve been thinking about since
January.
After talking to Richard Frye who built Yakoo, I changed the design
slightly by widening the spread in the center by 2", all other dimensions
are the same. This increased the rocker slightly so I added a 1 1/"4 high
keel full length on the bottom.
As for stability (which is why I made the yakoo change, Richard says it
makes the boat more stable in a turn), I'd agree with what has been said
before, tippier than a canoe. I haven't spent any time in a kayak so I
can't comment there. First couple of times I had it out I just sat on a
cushion, found that very tiring. Bought one of those folding low beach/sand
chairs and use it now, much more comfortable.
I made mine from 5.2mm Virola underlayment plywood from Home Depot, poly
resin, 3" glass tape-- used Bondo for some of the fillets, went to resin and
wood flour when I ran out of Bondo. Coated the inside with resin, decided
not to coat the outside when the weight hit just over 50 lbs-- the keel is
glassed, so that added some weight. Still manageble and easy to get on the
roof rack, but not the 40 lbs listed.
I do think the 7' paddle in the plans would be too short though. Granted,
I increased the beam by 2", but my paddle is 90" and I could use another
foot. Unfortunately, using a double paddle has aggravated a shoulder
impingement I've been fighting for a while (rowing doesn't bother it), so I
don't know how much I'll be using the boat myself-- but it's a fun and
fairly quick build and is fun to use.
I used one coat of Kilz primer and a couple coats of Krylon oil enamel and
it'll be stored outside-- so it's just about worst case scenario for a s&g
boat-- Poly resin, water resistant (not waterproof) ply, stored outside.
We'll see if it falls apart in a couple of years, but this was an experiment
anyway. Looks good (or so everybody tells me). I don't know whether a keel
is really necessary though. It does track straight but isn't all that easy
to turn in tight quarters unless you lean quite a bit. If it were built to
spec that might be better.
Here's a really cheap and cheesy page with some build photos:
http://geocities.com/craicer001/boatpics
No text, anybody who's researched s&g building has seen stuff like this a
million times. Too bad I couldn't find any semi-gloss paint though. I did
repaint the inside with "almond" Krylon after being nearly blinded by the
white gloss the first couple of times out!
Go on a build it, it's a fun boat and even if you use epoxy it's still not
an expensive boat.
Good luck,
Rick
"James W. Sloan" <james...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:be5jp4$27b$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
Backyard Renegade
> I do think the 7' paddle in the plans would be too short though. Granted,
> I increased the beam by 2", but my paddle is 90" and I could use another
> foot. Unfortunately, using a double paddle has aggravated a shoulder
> impingement I've been fighting for a while (rowing doesn't bother it), so I
> don't know how much I'll be using the boat myself-- but it's a fun and
> fairly quick build and is fun to use.
Using a 90 inch paddle with what is probably a wide grip is what
disturbed the shoulder. Even if you feel strong enough to "push" the
paddle at that length, your shoulder joint (assume you are a human) is
probably not designed for that much leverage, at that angle... Get to
the paddling groups, or just take my word for it for now. Hope you did
not *!@! your shoulder to bad.
Nice boat by the way, good luck with your next build... and there will
be one...
Scotty from SmallBoats.com
Backyard Renegade
> I increased the beam by 2", but my paddle is 90" and I could use another
> foot. Unfortunately, using a double paddle has aggravated a shoulder
> impingement I've been fighting for a while (rowing doesn't bother it), so I
> don't know how much I'll be using the boat myself-- but it's a fun and
> fairly quick build and is fun to use.
Using a 90 inch paddle with what is probably a wide grip is what
Richard Cunningham
Yeah, it's hard to say what caused the pain since I also mowed the grass
that day, which always gives me trouble. And you're right, pushing is what
causes the problem.
This Cheap Canoe was boat #2, I built a Steve Lewis LilJon first, and
glued up the butt joints today on a Michalak Vamp. This stuff'll eat your
brain!
Rick
"Backyard Renegade" <skcus...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
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Jacques Mertens
pictures etc. here:
http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/ProjectJustRight/chap17/Chap17.htm
--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com
"Richard Cunningham" <csha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
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James W. Sloan
the morning to get started! Thanks everyone for the insights and advice.
I'll post as the thing progresses......Hey Jaques, tell me in advance what
the first mistake I'll be making is. I can then move on to the second one
without delay!!!
James
James W. Sloan
Home Depot (I know...I know) and got her all cut out. Seems like the nesting
plan must not be to scale, the seat dimensions are way bigger than the
leftover material on the 2 sheets. Not a problem though...plenty of other
scrap around.
So far, all is well. I did the cutting with a jigsaw that I'd never used
before so, the first cut or two had some extra wave. Thanks goodness for
fillets & tape!!
James
Backyard Renegade
> In keeping with the "cheap" theme, I picked up some pseudo-luan (meranti) at
> Home Depot (I know...I know) and got her all cut out. Seems like the nesting
> plan must not be to scale, the seat dimensions are way bigger than the
> leftover material on the 2 sheets. Not a problem though...plenty of other
> scrap around.
>
> So far, all is well. I did the cutting with a jigsaw that I'd never used
> before so, the first cut or two had some extra wave. Thanks goodness for
> fillets & tape!!
>
> James
I have used the same stuff. I caution to use only that which carries
the sticker which reads, "type III Exterior Merenti". Also be real
careful of the fact that it is one fat center core with two thin skins
at a 90 degree. If there are voids that run the full width of the
part, they must be filled or avoided otherwise the hull tends to snap
right there just like it was a perforated piece of cardboard. If you
are using this stuff, you may want to consider a exterior coating of
very light glass, just to strengthen the outer skin against tearing. I
have used it for a few plugs while testing hull shapes and it holds up
fairly well. I have one that is almost ten years old, but it is
covered in 6 oz glass. I did have one that cracked out during
construction years ago which sat in mud and grass in my side yard for
about 3 years before the unprotected edges started to delaminate.
Anyway good luck, and happy building.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com
Jacques Mertens
All the dimensions are there, no need to scale anything from the plans.
--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com
"James W. Sloan" <james...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
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James W. Sloan
found tend to be 1/4 inch or so wide and run only an inch or two. I'll be
filling these with epoxy via syringe after loose joining everything
together. At $9 a sheet, I thought it was worth a try...cheap lessons if
not!
I think I've got enough 50 inch 6 oz. to give the exterior at least a good
layer. I might end up using 2 or 3 different epoxy brands before its
done...field testing I say.
Thanks for the advice,
James
James W. Sloan
You are absolutely correct. The dimensions (US & Metric) were all just fine.
I was only commenting that the nesting diagram implies that there will be
enough left to make the seat from the two sheets. Clearly the dimensions
indicate otherwise.
I'm not bitching though, the plans are worth at least 10x what I paid for
them ;).
Thanks for the info, the plans, the web site, etc., etc.!!
James
paddydix
Pat
"Jacques Mertens" <jmer...@e-boat.net> wrote in message
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