A substitute for fiberglass
Migchelsen
In a fabric store you can find a polyester material that is called BUCKRAM.
It comes in rolls of tape that are 4 inches wide. It is normally used on the
inside of the seams of curtains. There are two kinds of the tape: one kind with
small pockets to put in the metal hooks to hang the curtains, and the second
kind, which has no pockets at all. That is the kind to use. The polyester
material is fine woven, is thin as the expensive fiberglass material that is
used for airplane modeling, and extremely tough. It is also available on rolls
of material that are 22 inches wide, and 47 inches wide.
Combine the tape with plastic resin, the brownish powder glue that you mix with
water (2 spoons of glue, 1 spoon of water). It dries like fiberglass. A few
years ago I had used this combination successfully to repair a hole above the
waterline in a boat, but never thought about it further. Now that I am getting
older, I have to look for a lighter boat.
I used the tape to seal the seams, top and bottom, of a canoe made from Lauan.
This is what I found.
I used the wet method. To work easy, make the glue solution thinner than
prescribed. The glue must really flow like paint. Try the mixture ratio of 2
spoons glue on 2 spoons water. Try it out on a scrap piece of sample first.
Wet the surface to be taped first with the glue solution - the wet method. Put
the tape over the seam. I held it in place with one staple at the beginning.
Then I pushed the tape by about a foot at the time, onto the glue covering each
stretch of tape with glue. Working with my fingers (wear surgical gloves), I
pressed the tape strongly. Working slowly, I found that it stretches slightly
and took the shape of the (slow) bend of the canoe chine without crinkles or
bubbles. At sharp corners, cut away the extra material, or let it overlap and
sand the crinkle smooth when dry. The glue filled the fine weave beautifully. I
let it become tacky and give it a third coating of glue. Exactly the same way
as with fiber glassing. Some spots even needed a fourth layer - apply while
still tacky - to fill the weave smoothly. It dried like a mirror's surface. The
edges were so thin that I even did not have to feather them. I only feathered
some spots where 2 layers crossed at the panel joint, or places where 3 layers
overlapped at bow and stern.
After a very light hand sanding I gave it one coat of quality alkyd, exterior,
house paint primer. Follow up with two layers of paint. No leaks and dry as a
cork. How long this will last, I don't know yet.
So far these are my experiences: Fiberglass is beautiful stuff, but it is user
and environment unfriendly. Its vapours are toxic. The glue solution does not
smell one way, or another.. Sanding the glue is not so bad as sanding
fiberglass. The dust from sanding it, is less penetrating than fiberglass dust
and certainly easier to remove from your body parts. You can even do it indoors
because there is no smell. The big winner is the cost. I paid 50 cents per yard
of tape. Fiberglass cost me $1.25 the yard. Add the 15 percent sales tax in
Canada.
Epoxy is (very) expensive compared to the price of the plastic raisin glue.
The biggest advantage is the time of the pot-life. Fiberglass you do in small
batches. It has a short pot-life, can bubble. You also have to watch for amine
blush. You need chemicals to clean up. Glue is cleaned up with water. The glue
solution has a pot-life of about 3, yes, that is right, 3 hours. You can even
thin it a little bit more in between. Just like the 1/8" Lauan I used for the
canoe: I would never do this for a 50 ft blue water boat, or if the boat is
kept in the water 24 hours a day, for seven days in a week, but for a little
canoe that will be carried around on top of my car roof and then be used for a
couple of hours gunk holing close to the shore. I think it is worth the
experiment, especially, after checking what was left in my portemonnaie
(wallet).
My next project will be to make a canoe frame with a solid bottom, and cover
the sides and the deck this with the 22" and 47" material only and cover this
ultra-lite setup with the glue. Then experiment how long it stands ups to the
knocks. I will keep you NGies posted. Visit web site
www.hometown.aol.com/migchelsen/my homepage for other tips.Sheers and chines,
Barend.
Sirfraciaskonner
willing to comprimise the integrity of my boat just to save a couple of bucks?
Glenn Ashmore
Sirfraciaskonner wrote:
> But how much cheaper is it really than the fiberglass tape? Am I going to be
> willing to comprimise the integrity of my boat just to save a couple of bucks?
A 50 yard role of 6" wide 8 oz Volan tape is about $33
6" DB-170 bi-di tape is about $3 a yard.
This curtain liner stuff is about $1.50 a yard
You might save $30 on a 16' boat on the fabric and another $30 on the resin. But
you have several hundred in the other material and several hundred hours in the
labor. Is it worth it?.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of)
at: http://www.mindspring.com/~gashmore
Sirfraciaskonner
discovery!
Glenn Ashmore
Sirfraciaskonner wrote:
> well then, that is a decents savings. 60 $ on a 16' er, not too bad. Great
> discovery!
I sure hope that was ment saterically. If not, you have a lot to learn.
Badger
points here.
The point of adding fiberglass is to reinforce the polyester resin. If
you add more poly you have not really done much.
Also, Epoxy offers far more then pot life. It is much stronger, and has
far better bonding properties. However it's cost does usually outweigh it's
advantages.
I think maybe in the applications you represent here (canoe's and small
craft) this might be ok. But when I am 20 miles out in the big blue I want
tried and true under me. A man who jumps overboard out there quickly finds
out how insignificant her or she really is.
"Migchelsen" <migch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000912101611...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
Mitch Appleby
Migchelsen wrote in message
<20000912101611...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
>A low-cost substitute for fiberglass?
dory. Using just one sheet of door skin Luan. I figure the boat will be
the water maybe 3 hours a time. Super little boat to fish for bluegill in
small lakes, shallow water. So we're not out of sight of land.
This is new to me. Where do you get the plastic risen? From a fabric
store?
Also the link to your home page doesn't work, could you post that again?
<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><>
<> Mitch Appleby
<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><>
George Jefferson
:you add more poly you have not really done much.
but note he's using some un-named "plastic" resin, so maybe the polyester
fiber *is* a reinforcement. <G>
--
george jefferson : geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
to reply simply press "r"
-- I hate editing addresses more than I hate the spam!
john...@my-deja.com
author of The Sharpie Book) says, "The fabric I prefer above all others
is polyester -- especially Xynole-polyester, which is a 4.2 ounce, open-
weave cloth, much like a scrim or backing material. It comes in a 60
inch width, and is similar to the Japanese acrylic Dynel. Xynole-
polyester conforms to curved surfaces, wets out very quickly, has high
peel strength, high abrasion resistance, high flexibility, good tensile
strength, a light weight for its thickness (roughly equivalent to 8-oz
fiberglass cloth) and moderate cost. It is extraordinarily user-
friendly."
Elsewhere he says he restricts his use of fiberglass to tapes for
fastening bulkheads and covering seams in small craft. He describes it
as slightly more expensive than fiberglass of the same weight, but
about the same as fiberglass of equal strength (4.2 oz Xynole = 8 oz
fiberglass). It is non-allergenic.
He uses it with epoxy, not polyester resin.
Over a period of perhaps three decades this well regarded naval
architect and builder has constructed many blue water boats 30-50 feet
with this method.
My question: How is Xynole-polyester different than or similar to
Barend's BUCKRAM? If similar, we may have a cheap source of a proven,
and otherwise expensive, fiberglass substitute.
John
In article <20000912101611...@ng-cc1.aol.com>,
migch...@aol.com (Migchelsen) wrote:
>> A low-cost substitute for fiberglass? In a fabric store you can find
a polyester material that is called BUCKRAM....>>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
john...@my-deja.com
lightest,with a tendency to "float" when wet out) and Dynel.
"None of them make the builder itch! All three are more flexible than
fiberglass cloth, and have higher tensile strength per unit weight and
better abrasion resistance. Impregnated with epoxy, they are not as
stiff as glass and therefore not as brittle. When compared with
fiberglass, all three of the aforementioned "wet out" more rapidly and
thoroughly, and have higher peel strength from wood and better impact
resistance." (from Reuel Parker's The New Cold Molded Boatbuilding,
p.312)
Yet another:
"An excellent poor man's alternative to the three fabrics already
discussed and a good covering material for plywood decks, houses and
coachroofs is Yellowjacket, a polypropylene-coated lightweight glass
cloth. It can be used with Arabol--a latex rubber lagging compound--
and painted with rubber, epoxy or even oil-base house paints such as
urethane reinforced porch and floor enamel. Yellowjacket can also be
used with epoxy."
Does anyone have experience with any of these materials?
John
john...@my-deja.com
Migchelsen
website is bmbboats.webjump.com.
Migchelsen
know the name. S + C. B
William R. Watt
Migchelsen (migch...@aol.com) writes:
> The glue comes from the hardware store, or marine supply store. The correct
> website is bmbboats.webjump.com.
There are two "plastic resin" glues developed in the 1930's as the first
truly waterproof glues - resorcinol(?) which is the better and much more
expensive of the two, and urea formaldehyde(?). I suspect he is using
urea. Since he is based in Montreal he's probably using Dural's powdered
marine glue which is made in Dorval and is what I found here in Ottawa for
my dogskiff. Manufacturers put different additives in the urea powder, for
example wheat flour to thicken so it can be used to laminate. I suspect
the Weldwood dry powder glue used by Payson in his Instant Boats has urea
in it, maybe Airolite too.
Urea is mixed with water, brushed on, and sets above 70 deg F. It has to
be clamped (I used permanent screws instead). Of course if its just being
brushed on edges and knots to seal, or mixed with (sifted) sawdust to fill
it isn't clamped.
Resorcinol is what they used to hold the plywood Patrol Torpedo (PT) boats
together with in World War II. Wouldn't be suprized if they used it it the
plywood Mosquito bombers as well.
I understand professional boat builders have moved on to epoxy plastic
resin now as it is better than the earlier ones. But urea is cheaper. I
paid $13 for a 1lb can of Dural's which happens to be 1 quart by volume.
Mixed with two parts water that is 3 quarts of glue. A quart is 20% bigger
than 1 litre. The lowest price I could find locally for epoxy was $32 per
litre. Those prices are in Canadian dollars. Add 50% to convert to US
dollars.
I do like a cheap boat.
Spending money throws some people into a deep depression.
Saving a dime makes them wildly excited. :)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Capital FreeNet www.ncf.ca Ottawa's free community network
Badger
of polyester resin for $69.00 and that includes hardener. Will the urea
outperform polyester? must say your knowledge of resins is enlightening.
(gives a bow of respect)
Badger
"William R. Watt" <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:8pte6c$rn1$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Glenn Ashmore
Urea formaldehyde and resorcenol are adheasives and makes a lousy laminating
resin.
Epoxy can be formulated for laminating, adheasive or genral purpose.
Badger wrote:
> Heck I can stroll into any discount marine store and pick up a 5 gallon can
> of polyester resin for $69.00 and that includes hardener. Will the urea
> outperform polyester? must say your knowledge of resins is enlightening.
> (gives a bow of respect)
> Badger
--
sfk...@mindspring.com
mahogany on about a 45 degree angle? Is plywood a later in the war material
they may have switched to? - Frank
"Badger" <bad...@goeaston.net> wrote in message
news:8ltw5.18903$qm4.4...@news-east.usenetserver.com...
> Heck I can stroll into any discount marine store and pick up a 5 gallon
can
> of polyester resin for $69.00 and that includes hardener. Will the urea
> outperform polyester? must say your knowledge of resins is enlightening.
> (gives a bow of respect)
> Badger
Glenn Ashmore
about the Vospers that went to Russia and England but I would bet they were cold
molded too.
Some people don't know the difference between cold molded and plywood. Then
again, some people don't know the difference between adheasive and laminating
resin or structural fiberglass tape and a starch, varnish and wax impregnated
drapery tape.
This has got to be one of the stupidest threads I have seen here in a long
time. Any of you first timers lurking out there, PLEASE do your home work and
don't be tricked into being penny wise and pound foolish by being mislead by
this suggestion.
William R. Watt
> Polyester resin is for laminating glass. It is not a very good adheasive.
> Urea formaldehyde and resorcenol are adheasives and makes a lousy laminating
> resin.
Urea is what is used to laminate exterior grades of plywood, or so I've read.
I used it to laminate the transom on my dogskiff and it worked just fine.
As for the rest of the info I posted earlier on plastic resins, I've got
some variations on the theme by email which shows there is still a wide
spectrum of opinion and conflicting fact on boatbuilding materials. I
think people would be well advised to do their own research. I did last
summer and fall but recalling now from memory carries no iron clad
guarantee. I only found one text on adhesives, written by a Franklin
chemist about 1980. The info in home handyman, boatbuilding, and
Do-It-Yourself texts conflicted. The formula for the Dural's powder glue I
used was so old the chemist at the plant in Montreal didn't know what was
in it, and the military standard on the label on the can could not be
identified by the military or the national standards registries here in
Ottawa.
I guess its all part of the mystery and charm of that makes building one's own
boat so fascinating - and keeps these interesting discussions going.
>> Heck I can stroll into any discount marine store and pick up a 5 gallon can
>> of polyester resin for $69.00 and that includes hardener. Will the urea
>> outperform polyester? must say your knowledge of resins is enlightening.
>> (gives a bow of respect)
>> Badger
>
> --
> Glenn Ashmore
>
> I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there
> of) at: http://www.mindspring.com/~gashmore
>
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Ashmore
about using polyester buckram and "plastic" glue which is Urea-formaldehyde. That
is the laminating I was referring to. Using Urea-formaldehyde as a laminating
ADHEASIVE for wood veneers is perfectly acceptable. Urea-formaldehyde is the
standard glue for interior plywood. Exterior and marine plywoods use
phenolic-formaldehyde. In very rare instances some higher grade marine uses
resorcenol. Phenolic glues are more ecconomical and are thermosetting so the press
can be heated and recycled rapidly. Rescorcinol is the ultimate marine adheasive
but is cold set (room temp) and takes 8 to 12 hours in the press. .
None of the three are gap filling and loose strength rapidly in a thick glue line.
Using urea-formaldehyde to fill the weave of a fiber reinforcement is probably one
of its least appropriate applications.
I guess this thread iritates me so much because it reminds me of my ex-wife. When a
recipe called for milk and we were out, she would mix up some corn starch and water
"because it looks like milk". Real men don't eat quiche made with corn starch
instead of milk and real stitch and glue boats are not built with buckram and
plastic glue.
"William R. Watt" wrote:
> Glenn Ashmore (gash...@mindspring.com) writes:
> > Polyester resin is for laminating glass. It is not a very good adheasive.
> > Urea formaldehyde and resorcenol are adheasives and makes a lousy laminating
> > resin.
>
> Urea is what is used to laminate exterior grades of plywood, or so I've read.
> I used it to laminate the transom on my dogskiff and it worked just fine.
--
Migchelsen
Steve Simpson & Isabel Kerslake
Does anyone know where this materials can be obtained in the UK, preferably
in small quantities for experimenting?
Steve.