I can't get formica to stick to wood??? Help Please
Andy Baguley
Apologies for the post length
If anyone can assist, here is my story....
I'm building a steel boat and the interior walls (bulkheads) are gaboon ply
16mm thick with
oak veneer/mahogany balancer.
The interior of the loo (heads) is Formica lined on all surfaces. I am
having
problems getting the larger sheets of Formica to bond to the mahogany
balancer. This only seems to happen on the larger sheets which are some 7ft
x 4ft. The joint breaks in places causing air bubbles.
After the first attempt with some "generic" solvent adhesive I was able to
break the joint easily and remove large areas of Formica without it
cracking.
I discarded the Formica, changed adhesive to another generic brand, sanded
the wood as best I could to remove at least some of the adhesive, and tried
again with new Formica. This time this heat we had this week seems to have
brought out lots
of de-laminating. It peaked at 27 deg C in the boat!! Air bubbles have
developed wholesale.
The method I am using involves laying the sheet horizontal, coating both
surfaces with adhesive using the plastic spreader, and leaving for 10-20
mins. The time is a bit of a problem, as obviously it takes a finite amount
of time to cover two 7x4 surfaces in the first place.
I then put lengths of 1"x1" as spacers, so I can lay the Formica on the
gaboon without contact to position correctly. Then I gradually bond the two
together starting from one end, removing spacers, and pressing firmly as I
go.
Finally I press down as hard as I can for all over the sheet for some 10-20
mins, by which time I am well knackered and high as a kite in the confined
boat.
It's then left overnight.
Some people have suggested clamping but how do you clamp these two large
surfaces together. I thought that I had got it right second time, but the
heat of this week (in the UK) has proved me wrong. Looking at the bubbles it
seems that
the Formica has expanded since it was applied as in some areas you can push
the bubble around with your hand. I spent today removing a sheet, but this
time the bond was better, but not consistent. Analysis of a "bubble" reveals
adhesive still on both surfaces, with evidence of contact at one time.
I'm also a bit concerned about the adhesive that is left on the ply, as I
have to re-use the 16mm gaboon. Sanding with 40g on an 1/2 sheet orbital is
the best I have found to provide a key for the new coat of adhesive.
I'm now lost as the best way to go, as I obviously need a good bond to
survive the much greater temps, when the boat sails south. But how can I get
these larger areas to stay stuck?
Any assistance regarding the best way to do it, best adhesive to use etc etc
would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for your time.
Regards
Andy
Tom Brown
> Finally I press down as hard as I can for all over the sheet for some 10-20
> mins, by which time I am well knackered and high as a kite in the confined
> boat.
Are you using a J roller?
> Some people have suggested clamping but how do you clamp these two large
> surfaces together.
A vacuum clamp would do the trick. Contact adhesive responds well to heat too.
What is sometimes done is to use a heat gun in one hand and a J roller in the
other. Do this over the entire surface. Be careful not to melt the surface, of
course. I don't think there is any need to wait 24 hours. The adhesive should
be roughly dry when you press the two surfaces together. In fact, you shouldn't
put them together until none of the adhesive comes off on your finger when you
touch it lightly. It should just feel 'tacky'.
> Analysis of a "bubble" reveals
> adhesive still on both surfaces, with evidence of contact at one time.
It could have been too wet when you applied the two sides together. Make sure
your coat is even. The blobs will take forever to dry. Use a brush when you
apply the glue. I usually use two coats of cement on wood. The procedure is to
apply a coat to the wood. When it is dry to the touch, apply a second coat and
apply the first coat to the laminate. Wait until both are at least tacky prior
to pressing together for the final bond.
> I'm also a bit concerned about the adhesive that is left on the ply, as I
> have to re-use the 16mm gaboon. Sanding with 40g on an 1/2 sheet orbital is
> the best I have found to provide a key for the new coat of adhesive.
This shouldn't be a problem. It'll clog your paper quickly, though.
> I'm now lost as the best way to go, as I obviously need a good bond to
> survive the much greater temps, when the boat sails south. But how can I get
> these larger areas to stay stuck?
I would suggest that you use three coats of cement (two on the wood and one on
the laminate). Make sure the coats are dry prior to proceeding. Use a J roller
and a heat gun to cure the glue. Don't hesitate to try a test piece if you're
worried about burning the laminate. If this doesn't work, or if you know
someone with a vacuum clamp, use a vacuum clamp and a bag. It will put far more
pressure on the sheet than you could imagine. I would point some heat lamps at
the glue up too, to encourage curing.
I've had good luck with both the old style contact adhesive and the new style
latex contact adhesive. If I were doing something I really cared about, I would
use the old style and I would buy the Weldbond brand. Don't forget to apply it
with a brush so the coat is fairly even. You need to work quickly with a brush
because it will be a real detriment as the adhesive starts to dry.
> Andy
Good luck,
Tom Brown
Andy Baguley
Thanks for the reply.
Not heard of a J Roller. Can you describe/explain please.
A vacum clamp might be a bit difficult. Do you mean the one that uses a
large bag and sucks the air out, or some other device? Space is confined in
the hull. It's difficult to move a sheet around, let alone get it into a
bag!!!
Like the idea of using heat to get the glue to cure. I did find that heat
aided the removal of the Formica, ie I heated an area with a 2Kw fan heater,
and was able to part the two surfaces easier. It seemed to soften the
adhesive.
In your experience is there any chance of re-vitalising the bonds that have
broken, without having to resort to removing and stripping the bulkheads?
I mean by using the roller and heat gun over the bubble. The surfaces were
first bonded about a month/six weeks back. I did notice that when I pressed
a bubble, it did seen to partially stick, but not for long!!
Thanks again for you help
Andy
"Tom Brown" <tom....@swp.com> wrote in message
news:3B1295A8...@swp.com...
Mike Lazzari
cement is used and it must be completely dry on both surfaces before
contact is made. Get a fan. Start removing your spacers in the center
(centre for you blokes) and work outward with a wide roller applying
quite a bit of pressure to eliminate the bubbles. I wouldn't sand the
old glue but rather would flood with thinner and scrape the old glue off
until the surface is smooth. It must be perfectly smooth.
You can also use all purpose floor and tile adhesive spread with a
1/16th" (2mm) notched trowel. Spread on one surface only and don't allow
to dry before applying laminate. Use the same technique with roller
being careful to not starve the joint by rolling out all of the mastic.
Once in place the formica must be held in place until the glue dries.
This can be accomplished by cross bracing in an enclosed area.
And I sure wouldn't use solvent based adhesive in the enclosed area of a
boat. You will need solvent to remove the old glue however. Get a
resirator for christ's sake!
Mike
P.C.
Tom Brown skrev i meddelelsen <3B1295A8...@swp.com>...
>Andy Baguley wrote:
>
>> Finally I press down as hard as I can for all over the sheet for some 10-20
>> mins, by which time I am well knackered and high as a kite in the confined
>> boat.
>
>Are you using a J roller?
>
>
>> Some people have suggested clamping but how do you clamp these two large
>> surfaces together.
Now if there was small holes in the formica ,Epoxy would fill these ,and if the
Holes will make the hardened Epoxy a lock ,then the holes shuld be no problem as
they are filled with something as strong as the formica ,at the same time ,the
wood will be fully protected ,that way you could glue formica to end woodgrain ,
nothing wrong with modern materials, but that's as you prefere ,If you use one
technike you gain some ,where another could gain different. I don't care eiter.
Just my two cent.
Allen
Andy Baguley wrote:
> I think I must be doing something wrong!!
>
Any chance of contamination? You said you coated the surfaces and let them dry
for 10 to 20 minutes. That's certainly enough time and having consulted with an
expert (my dad) your technique is adequate if not entirely to his liking.
Your post neglected to mention wether you cleaned the surfaces prior to the
application of the adhesive. Saw dust or dirt on the surfaces would interfere
with the bond. Also, is there any chance of the glue surfaces being contaminated
before the Formica is applied? That would also effect the bond.
Glenn Ashmore
crap. I have also found that commercial contact cement (WilsonArt 500) works a
lot better than the DAP/Weldwood sold at the Home Despot.
Contact cement needs from 15 to 30 minutes to evaporate all the solvent and has
a working time of about 3 hours. Use a paint roller to apply an even coat.
After 10 minutes or so, examine the surfaces for dull spots and apply some more
if needed. You want an even, slightly glossy surface.
Put the lamanate down from the center and work out. I keep the edges turned up
and gradually let it grab as I roll. If the edges grab before the center is
well bonded you build up stress in the laminate that will buckle and turn loose
as the glue ages.
Once the surfaces grabs you need to apply about 25 PSI of pressure or about 75
pounds on a 3" J-roller. That means you really have to bare down, which is hard
to do on a vertical surface. (BTW a J-roller is a rubber roller on a steel
frame. By the shape of the handle, it should really be called a P-roller.)
Wait until you try wood veneer. Compared to that, Formica is a piece of cake.
I have given up on contact cement and now use Tightbond II on wood veneer and
epoxy on Formica with a vacuum bag.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there
of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Ludger Hentschel
"Andy Baguley" <andy.b...@cwcom.net> wrote:
> I think I must be doing something wrong!!
>
> Apologies for the post length
>
> If anyone can assist, here is my story....
>
> I'm building a steel boat and the interior walls (bulkheads) are gaboon ply
> 16mm thick with
> oak veneer/mahogany balancer.
> The interior of the loo (heads) is Formica lined on all surfaces. I am
> having
> problems getting the larger sheets of Formica to bond to the mahogany
> balancer. This only seems to happen on the larger sheets which are some 7ft
> x 4ft. The joint breaks in places causing air bubbles.
snip
> The method I am using involves laying the sheet horizontal, coating both
> surfaces with adhesive using the plastic spreader, and leaving for 10-20
> mins. The time is a bit of a problem, as obviously it takes a finite amount
> of time to cover two 7x4 surfaces in the first place.
>
> I then put lengths of 1"x1" as spacers, so I can lay the Formica on the
> gaboon without contact to position correctly. Then I gradually bond the two
> together starting from one end, removing spacers, and pressing firmly as I
> go.
>
> Finally I press down as hard as I can for all over the sheet for some 10-20
> mins, by which time I am well knackered and high as a kite in the confined
> boat.
>
> It's then left overnight.
snip
Four suggestions:
1) If you must do this inside the boat, please get an _appropriate_
respirator, a fan, and somebody to pull you out in case you pass out
after all. Do not underestimate the potentially devastating health
effects of glue fumes!
2) I have had good luck laying up Formica with DAP/Weldwood contact
cement (the original formula). I have had bad luck with DAP/Weldwood
latex contact cement. For me, the latex version failed completely on end
grain. Yet, the original formula worked without any problems.
3) You need to apply pressure to form a good joint. The required
pressure is easy to apply if you can lean on a roller or wood block. The
required pressure can be quite difficult to apply in the center of the
sheet when you have to reach 2' across the sheet. Make sure you
understand the pressure requirements. Also, make sure the sheet is
properly supported in the area where you are applying pressure.
Clamping should not be necessary, however.
4) Although you need the spacers when you lay up the Formica, you don't
want to stress the sheet too much by working too close to the spacers.
Either remove the spacers before you work too much curvature into the
sheet, or use thinner spacers. Formica cutoffs or cardboard make good
spacers.
Ludger
Mike Lazzari
Not my experience at all. In fact I believe the water based stuff to be
superior and I don't use anything else nor have I ever had a call back
with it. It does however require a bit different technique. Why do you
say it's crap?
Mike
Glenn Ashmore
sence. What is the difference in technique?
Mike Lazzari wrote:
--
Mike
<andy.b...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>I think I must be doing something wrong!!
>
For formica, I used contact cement. Buy a good brand (I have no idea
what is available in the UK). Get a J roller, which is a 3" hard
rubber roller on a handle with a bend in it for leverage. You can
develop several hundred PSI of force pushing down with this.
After setting the top down like before with the sticks, start at the
middle and work to the edges with the roller.
to see a picture.
Let the glue dry completely before putting the two pieces together.
Wet glue doesn't seem to work very well.
Mike in Houston
Ed Kirstein
builder and it worked for me is:
Use Formica brand contact adhesive and make sure it is the smelly stuff
which probably means, not the water based.
After you wait the 15 to 20 minutes for it to dry on both surfaces, apply a
second coat. Then after the second coat is no longer tacky, continue with
the lamination. I didn't have a roller so I just simply pressed and rubbed
the Formica with a brown paper bag so that my hands would slide. Never had
a delaminating. Good luck.
Ed
"Andy Baguley" <andy.b...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:UgwQ6.8997$WD.23...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Mike Lazzari
>
> I only tried it once and that was a total failure so I have not tried it
> sence. What is the difference in technique?
>
generally required. It takes a bit longer to dry and must be totally dry
before sticking. This is where most people who are used to the nasty
stuff go wrong. A fan and heat help a lot. Open time is a bit less so
timing is more critical. I generally like to use the 3M #30 neutral
Fastbond. Give it another chance.
mike
Dave Summers
Andy Baguley wrote:
Andy,
Make sure the boards you are laying this laminate on are flat and not cupped
or bowed 2 ways because laminate will not conform to it if it is.Instaed of a
plastic spreader use a roller it's faster and more uniform.Don't start rolling
fom one end, start in the middle and work your way out in both drections to
get any air to escape if any gets caught .Its easier to push air bubbles 4'
vs.8' actually its literally imposible to pusch a bubble 8'. My feeling is your
glue on the first surface you do is probbaly drying to long and the glue on
the second piece not enough,coupled with the fact that your stoned while
your drying(use a fan or mask)You need to buy a roller to roll out the glue
too, patting it down doesnt cut it,you should be applying extreme pressure to
the laminate to get it to bond ,the bend in the roller near the rubber roller
should get very warm from this extremme pressure. If not your not pushing hard
enough. Dont try to roll all 4 areas at onch do one at a time. if you do choose
to use water borne instead of solvent based,apply 2 coats to each,one doesnt
cut it with water based. To me they both work well if you follow directions
properly. Oh yeah when you lay the laminate on your strips ..index the laminate
and pull out the middle strip ...push laminate down and lift one end and pull
out strips and smooth out laminate as you work your way to end and then do ther
side same way to lessen your chance of getting air bubbles in middle.
Dave in New Jersey
huikai
i do alot of cabinet work with mica, you may want to let the glue dry to
the point where it feels only lightly tacky to the finger tips and then
apply the mica. also after the mica is installed try using a formica
roller evenly over the surface.
good luck
huikai
Andy Baguley
Presently I can't source a J Roller here, but I'm still looking. Seems an
essential piece of kit. I'll try the heat gun, thinner spacers, and pehaps
different adhesive
Seems like a combination of poor adhesive cure/bond and laminate distortion
during application.
I have enough to go away and do some experimentation.
For those who are interedted there is a picture (taken last spring, the red
one) of the boat, prior to fairing (now half way through).
http://dixdesign.com/dix38pil.htm Still no windows in yet though. Thanks for
thr concern re health issues. To reasure all I am using a 3M Class FFA 1P1
respirator.
Thanks again, and Regards to all
Andy
P.C.
Andy ,please don't start drilling N in nth holes ,My suggestion maby work if you
_realy want to glue difficult materials and have a NC router ,It proberly work
well with Alu aswell but requier right materials but for a pantry solotion
someone could even chose cromeplated gold <;)
Have a nice day :))
Andy Baguley skrev i meddelelsen ...
Al Cooperband
- Don't apply too much contact cement. Use only enough for a thin coat.
Spraying is a good way to apply it, but cleanup is messy.
- Make sure the cement is dry before applying the panel. It should feel
slightly tacky when touched, but should not stick to a clear finger.
- Immediately after putting the plastic laminate in place, use a small
block of wood (like a 6" piece of 2x4) and a 2# or 3# sledge to pound
everywhere on it to force it into intimate contact with the substrate,
starting in the middle and working out to the edges.
____________________
Al Cooperband
Earl Creel
about a two pound dead blow hammer and a block of soft wood.
Earl Creel
"Al Cooperband" <co...@usc.edu> wrote in message
news:3B14120F...@usc.edu...
NWCedarDecks
you may need to seal the ply with epoxy
my .02
ED
David DeGrazia
and then you can apply formica on new laun plywood but first putty over the
screw and sanded then formica
"Andy Baguley" <andy.b...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:UgwQ6.8997$WD.23...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
K'Honchu
great deal of experience with what you are describing.
About your "generic" glues. Most have a tough time sticking to
the melamine in the Formica. I would strongly recomend the contact
adhesive "Lockweld". Wilsonart sells it under their own label. And
Formica also has a similar mixture from another supplier.
Your race to beat the dry time is eliminated with a contact
adhesive. The "glueing" is not a function of solvent content. You
actually want the glue to "dry" on both surfaces to be joined before
you put them together. The bonding action comes from a crosslinking of
the polymers that occurs after the solvent has flashed off. The
lockweld comes in several grades for application. We spray the stuff
here. But, the "600" is intended for roller or brush application.
I reccomend following the directions on the can. In our climate
here in Alabama. The un-aided drying time for a rolled on layer is
about :30 (Minutes, not seconds) and tack time is about 4:00. (Four
hours) My experience is that you get a slightly better bond with open
grained wood or wood with a slightly roughed surface. (80 to 120 grit.
Highly polished wood just doesnot take contact glue well. I have used
it over teak and mahogany. Oils can be a bother during application.
But, the long term exposure does not seem to weaken the bond. I
reccomend a quick wash and dry with MEK, for teak prior to applying
the glue. The tendancy for the novice is to over coat with the
adhesive. Only a very, very, thin layer is required on each surface.
We spray to a light web coating. Caution: after application and
drying this stuff will adhere ( adhesive or stick) on contact. Only
the slightest touch between the two coated surfaces is required to
start the bond. Align the parts before allowing them to touch. stick
spacers can be helpful. You will not be allowed a second chance to
re-position the laminate. For uniform bonding, some rolling with a
hard rubber roller helps. But, pressure of any sort will do. ie:
Rubber mallet over a rolled up newspaper.
The resulting dried bond has characteristics similar to neoprene.
That is to say very water resistant and non-brittle. Temperatures
below 180 F have little effect.
In a government labratory where emisivity was restricted I once used
epoxy to laminate Chem Surf Formica to some walls. In short: The
experience sucked massively! You must acheive a thourough coating
with a slightly thickened epoxy. And uniform pressure must be held
for the duration of the set.
I hope this doesn't come too late.