Greg LeMond and the 1992 Tour de France
Bruce Hildenbrand
has been hashed a bit, I thought I would add my $0.02.
First off, there are two major paths that the pros use to prepare
for the Tour de France(TIOOYK). The first path is to ride the
Giro d'Italia, a 3 week race which ends about 3 weeks before the
TdF starts. The second popular path is to ride the Dauphine Libiere
a one week race in late May, early June and then the Tour of
Switzerland, a two week race that ends about 1 week before the TdF
starts.
Both paths involve about 3 weeks of difficult racing, the decision
on which path to take is based on rider preference, team nationality
and some intangibles.
In 1992, Indurain, Chiapucci and Hampsten chose the Giro, Bugno and
LeMond chose the Dauphine/Tour of Switzerland route.
I don't think you can count the Tour DuPont as a drain on LeMond's
physical resources. While the riders spent as much as 8 hours on the
bike, the climbing was short by European standards, maximum efforts
lasted 30-45 minutes tops.
So what do I think was the root of LeMond's problems in the 1992
Tour? I think that physically he was OK, but mentally, LeMond
never got in the game. He showed signs of being there mentally,
like the break that he rode with Chiapucci in stage six, but
he never really committed himself mentally to doing what it takes
to be competitive in the Tour.
I say LeMond was OK physically because he showed up and coming
form in the Dauphine Libiere and the Tour de Suisse. He was not
raging in either race, just steady like a training effort.
It is not clear why LeMond never got it together mentally. It might
have been due to all the hassles he had getting to the start in San
Sebastian, it may have been the obviuos sponsorship problems(he and
Giro must have been at odds for him not to wear a helmet in stage 9,
and his team is still searching for a title sponsor for 1993) or it
may have been the psyche job Indurain put on everybody(except Chiapucci)
when he won the first time trial by three minutes.
Well, just my thoughts, I hope that Greg returns to be competitive
(and he will)!!!
Bruce
Kurt Brunton
In article <l81l7u...@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, bhi...@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM
|>
|> It is not clear why LeMond never got it together mentally. It might
|> have been due to all the hassles he had getting to the start in San
|> Sebastian, it may have been the obviuos sponsorship problems(he and
(i.e. he's more concerned about the money than winning the race)
|> Giro must have been at odds for him not to wear a helmet in stage 9,
|> and his team is still searching for a title sponsor for 1993) or it
|> may have been the psyche job Indurain put on everybody(except Chiapucci)
|> when he won the first time trial by three minutes.
|>
I have to agree. Even though Greg is a very talented cyclist, it seems
that over the past couple of years he has been more interested in money than in
winning races. I've been disappointed lately in the way that the stars of the
peleton ride the early season races. There weren't any stars at any of the
finishes of the spring classics. Unlike Merckx and Hinault, who were able to win
classics and tours and who always seemed to be trying to win, todays stars are
satisfied to do one race per year and collect large salaries. I'm glad to see a
cyclist like Indurain win the Giro and the Tour. Maybe the others will see that
you can race more than once per year. As for Greg, let him go play golf, I'm
tired of hearing about his troubles. No one that makes $2M+ per year has
troubles as far as I'm concerned.
Kurt "I'm a lowly paid software engineer who rides because it is fun, not because
someone pays me to" Brunton
Dennis Davis
>The subject of why Greg LeMond dropped out of the Tour de France
>has been hashed a bit, I thought I would add my $0.02.
[stuff deleted]
>Well, just my thoughts, I hope that Greg returns to be competitive
>(and he will)!!!
>
>Bruce
Bruce's article is a convenient place on which to hang this, so here
goes.
Greg LeMond was originally listed as a reserve for the Z team in the
Kellogg's Tour of Britain. Apparently he will now be riding. His
team manager Roger Legeay is quoted as saying:
"Greg will definitely be coming to Leeds. He is aiming for a
good ride in the world championship and he needs some quality
racing."
The Kellogg's Tour runs from Monday August 10 to Friday August 14.
Greg is due to stay in Britain to ride the Wincanton Classic which
is on Sunday August 16. This will be the first time Greg has raced
in Britain since he took the silver medal in the world professional
road race championship at Goodwood ten year ago. It doesn't seem
that long ago that I went to watch that race. Sigh, I'll have to
start looking for grey hairs.
It should be a good race. The sprinters Johan Museeuw (Lotto),
Olaf Ludwig (Panasonic) and Djamolidin Aduzhaparov (Carrera) are down
to ride. Other notable riders include Stephen Roche (Carrera), Phil
Anderson (Motorola), Robert Millar (TVM) and Eddy Bouwmans
(Panasonic). The American team Subaru-Montgomery are riding.
I'm looking forward to it. I was beginning to get withdrawal
symptoms after the ending of the TV coverage of the Tour de France.
Now I will have another week of Phil Liggett & Co before the *real*
cold turkey starts.
--
Dennis Davis, BUCS, University of Bath, Bath, BA2 7AY, UK
D.H....@bath.ac.uk
David Tan,Box 219 Baker Lab,54810,2720402
>
> winning races. I've been disappointed lately in the way that the stars of the
> peleton ride the early season races. There weren't any stars at any of the
> finishes of the spring classics. Unlike Merckx and Hinault, who were able to win
> classics and tours and who always seemed to be trying to win, todays stars are
> satisfied to do one race per year and collect large salaries. I'm glad to see a
> cyclist like Indurain win the Giro and the Tour. Maybe the others will see that
> you can race more than once per year. As for Greg, let him go play golf, I'm
I'm disappointed, too (for what that's worth), with the way the LeMonds and
Bugnos are treating the season. To be fair, though, Indurain placed 4th at
the Fleche Wallonne last spring, while he was still number 2 at Banesto (he
was sidelined by illness this spring) and won the Clasico San Sebastian in '90
(or was it last year?) Merckx has said that he thinks Indurain can win any
number of classics if he puts his mind to it. Delgado was top ten this year
at the Fleche, and I think he did reasonably well at last year's (? am I
thinking of 1990?) LBL.
Dave
Mike Mccallum
>
> bhi...@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>|>
>|> It is not clear why LeMond never got it together mentally. It might
>|> have been due to all the hassles he had getting to the start in San
>|> Sebastian, it may have been the obviuos sponsorship problems(he and
> ***********
>(i.e. he's more concerned about the money than winning the race)
I think Bruce was referring to the fact that Z, the manufacturer of
children's clothing was pulling out it's sponsorship of the team.
Grig is probably concerned about this. Hell, I would be! And whatever
problems he may or may not be having with Giro.... I can see some dis-
straction there, sure.
I don't think how much money Grig is making has either made him greedy
or influenced how he approaches his season. I think if he were making
Jacky Durand's salary, for example, he would still race and train (prepare)
the way he does now.
>
>Kurt "I'm a lowly paid software engineer who rides
>because it is fun, not because someone pays me to" Brunton
--Mike
Thomas H. Kunich
cycling (anymore) for the money. He has already admitted on
camera that he now has more money than he can spend in the
rest of his life. He owns a successful restuarant and a bicycle
manufacturing company that will be successful whether or
not he wins anymore.
The only reason Greg has for racing anymore is because he
wants to. If he gets psyched-out easily now, whose to say
that he wasn't psyched-out easily before and that there weren't
so many great riders around then?
The Tour de France was a real killer this time as should
have been noted by the large number of breakaway wins. It's hard
for any rider to maintain superiority in those conditions and
without his overwhelming TT abilities Indurain would have been
in serious trouble.
Steven King
|> The subject of why Greg LeMond dropped out of the Tour de France
|> has been hashed a bit, I thought I would add my $0.02.
[About $.25 worth deleted...]
|> It is not clear why LeMond never got it together mentally. It might
|> have been due to all the hassles he had getting to the start in San
|> Sebastian, it may have been the obviuos sponsorship problems(he and
|> Giro must have been at odds for him not to wear a helmet in stage 9,
|> and his team is still searching for a title sponsor for 1993) or it
|> may have been the psyche job Indurain put on everybody(except Chiapucci)
|> when he won the first time trial by three minutes.
An interesting side-bar in the latest Velo-News discusses this issue
in great detail. They showed mechanically that Indurains margin was
really no surprise. The TT was flat, save for one short hill, and rather
straight. Thus, a rider could build momentum and maintain it.
Now, if you figure that LeMond rides 172.5 cranks (so says Velo News --
but from reading his book and Hinault's book you would think Greg would
ride a 175 or 177.5 for TTs) and Indurain rides 180 cranks, this figures
to be (approx) a 4 percent mechanical advantage. The flat, straight course
allowed Indurain to make full use of this advantage, since he didn't
need to accelerate out of corners, over hills, etc. The three minutes
he took out of everyone is about a 4 percent difference.
(This part isn't from Velo-News) You might also think that a smaller
rider such as Bugno or LeMond would have an aerodynamic advantage over
a large rider such as Indurain. I think that the use of aerodynamic
gear narrows this advantage significantly. (Those of you who have ridden
into the wind with and without TT bars know what I mean). I don't recall
seeing any formal testing of this hypothesis in the literature, but I
haven't been keeping up the last couple of years. I do know that the
Pro cyclists feel that the gap between the great and the good TT riders
has narrowed with the advent of aero bars. So, whereas in the past an
Indurain would have fought more air throughout such a TT, now he fights
relatively less air and can take advantage of the mechanical difference.
Food for thought, anyway.
|> Well, just my thoughts, I hope that Greg returns to be competitive
|> (and he will)!!!
Definitely. I'll write LeMond and tell him to use 177.5 cranks next time!
Steven (s...@strl.labs.tek.com)
"Sometimes if you have a cappuccino and then try again it will work OK."
(Dr. Brian Reid) "Sometimes one cappuccino isn't enough." (Marcus Ranum)
"A double vanilla latte always works." (Me)
Steven King
|> In article <l81l7u...@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, bhi...@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM
|> Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
[Discussion about LeMond's psychological state deleted...]
|> I have to agree. Even though Greg is a very talented cyclist, it seems
|> that over the past couple of years he has been more interested in money than in
|> winning races. I've been disappointed lately in the way that the stars of the
|> peleton ride the early season races. There weren't any stars at any of the
|> finishes of the spring classics. Unlike Merckx and Hinault, who were able to win
|> classics and tours and who always seemed to be trying to win, todays stars are
|> satisfied to do one race per year and collect large salaries. I'm glad to see a
|> cyclist like Indurain win the Giro and the Tour. Maybe the others will see that
|> you can race more than once per year. As for Greg, let him go play golf, I'm
|> tired of hearing about his troubles. No one that makes $2M+ per year has
|> troubles as far as I'm concerned.
You don't mention the fact the the _depth_ of the teams has increased
dramatically over the last decade. Any significant interview with a
pro cyclist or cycling pundit will reveal this tidbit of information.
Consider this:
Tour De France 1992
-------------------
Banesto:
o Team Leader Indurain - Won the Tour in 1991
o 1st Lt. Delgado - Won the Tour in 1988 (right year?)
Gatorade:
o Team Leader Bugno - World Champion 1991, Giro Winner 1990
o 1st Lt. Fignon - Two-time Tour winner, Two-time close second
Carrera:
o Team Leader Chiapucci - Always in the thick of it, eh?
o 1st Lt. Roche - Won the Tour in 1987 (right year?)
Won the Giro and World's that same year
Z:
o Team Leader LeMond - Three time Tour Winner, Two time World Pro Champ
once second in Tour and once third
o 1st Lt. Atle Kvolosol (sp?) - Twice second in Tour Du Pont, excellent climber
Back in the days of Hinault, you might have one other _major_ contender,
and one or two _possible_ contenders. But everyone in the peloton knew
the Hinault was king and rode accordingly. With the advent of the super-
team (La Vie Claire), Hinualt and LeMond pioneered the concept of a team
with two potential captains. There wasn't a team that could touch them
in a major tour. They still battled a frisky Fignon or Moser, but they
would always sick one or the other on the aggresor. (Just to keep things from
becoming boring, Hinault attacked LeMond during the 1986 tour -- that's how
dominant La Vie Claire was in the mid-80s). Today you have four teams with
two potential Tour winners on each team, and other teams loaded with sprinters,
climbers and TT specialists. Wheh!
Add to this the fact that the speed of the peloton has greatly increased.
The domestics are more interested in FICP points, stage wins and special
category points (climbing, sprinting, etc.) so in stage races and classics
they go full-bore throughout the entire race. Domestics are given contracts
based upon _results_, not necessarily on how much they helped the team
captain win races.
Thus, the chance of someone totally dominating the peloton similar to Merckx
or Hinault is greatly reduced in today's world of pro cycling.
Harry Phinney
: Now, if you figure that LeMond rides 172.5 cranks (so says Velo News --
: but from reading his book and Hinault's book you would think Greg would
: ride a 175 or 177.5 for TTs) and Indurain rides 180 cranks, this figures
: to be (approx) a 4 percent mechanical advantage.
Granted that longer cranks offer greater mechanical advantage, but this
does not in any way reduce the amount of work the rider must do, nor
does it necessarily increase the amount of work the rider can do. All
it does is decrease the force the rider must apply to the pedals, while
_increasing_ the distance the pedals travel. It is similar in some
respects to using a smaller gear.
: (This part isn't from Velo-News) You might also think that a smaller
: rider such as Bugno or LeMond would have an aerodynamic advantage over
: a large rider such as Indurain. I think that the use of aerodynamic
: gear narrows this advantage significantly. (Those of you who have ridden
: into the wind with and without TT bars know what I mean).
I am not convinced. A rider like Indurain still has a larger frontal
area than a smaller rider, and will have a greater amount of aerodynamic
drag.
This discussion reminds me strongly of those a few years ago wherein
people were claiming that only riders the size of LeMond, Roche, etc
could be competitive in the TDF. The claim at that time was that racing
had gotten so much harder since Eddy Merckx's reign that a rider of his
build could no longer be competitive. Now that Indurain is winning, the
same sort of arguments try to show that a larger rider such as him has
an advantage over the smaller riders. Bicycle road racing remains a
sport in which people having many different body types and sizes can be
competitive.
Harry Phinney ha...@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
UCP...@unlvm.unl.edu
they've been defeated. In the case of this year's Tour, "I've been beaten,
Indurain was clearly the strongest." No excuses. As Eddy B has always said,
"In bike racing there is only one reason why you fall off the back of the pack
, and that's because you weren't strong enough. You might have a bad day or
something, but the same excuse used over and over again is just bull.'
This is the mindset for Bugno, he acknowledges the strength of whoever beats
him, same goes for Chiapucci and Fignon. The pro-peleton is a tuff one now,
with the World Cup and FICP points system, making it hard for any rider to
dominate like the true greats (like Merckx and Coppi and many others) did.
To think people were comparing LeMond to the likeness of Merckx last year and
in '89, it just makes me laugh. I hope LeMond comes back, and I'm sure he
will, but he certainly needs to focus on racing, not money and family. It may
sound harsh....but for the true top pro stars....cycling has to be the #1
priority. Everything else has to come second. That's the price for being a
great pro. Chiapucci is one of the few perfect examples. Indurain and Bugno
might fit the same profile but I haven't done much reading about their personal
lives to know for sure.
That's all for now.
Conrad ------------
Michael Collier
>This discussion reminds me strongly of those a few years ago wherein
>people were claiming that only riders the size of LeMond, Roche, etc
>could be competitive in the TDF. The claim at that time was that racing
>had gotten so much harder since Eddy Merckx's reign that a rider of his
>build could no longer be competitive. Now that Indurain is winning, the
>same sort of arguments try to show that a larger rider such as him has
>an advantage over the smaller riders. Bicycle road racing remains a
>sport in which people having many different body types and sizes can be
>competitive.
the argument i can credit is that the TT courses in the TDF (at least
the first of the two, not counting the prologue) were fairly flat, and
without many turns. a "large" rider like Indurain did not need to
accelerate/decelerate all the time. on the other hand, he won the
prologue too, so who knows :-). i guess we will just have to admit he
is a superior athlete (gasp!) and quit trying to determine what his
"edge" is :-).
--
Michael H. Collier INET: col...@ariel.unm.edu BITNET: COLLIER@UNMB
1160 Don Pasqual NW; Los Lunas, NM 87031; (505) 865 8770 / (505) 764 5320
"She was a blonde. The kind of blonde that would make a bishop kick in
a stained glass window". - Raymond Chandler
Kurt Brunton
In article <1683B10F5...@UNLVM.UNL.EDU>, UCP...@UNLVM.UNL.EDU writes:
|> I hope LeMond comes back, and I'm sure he
|> will, but he certainly needs to focus on racing, not money and family. It may
|> sound harsh....but for the true top pro stars....cycling has to be the #1
|> priority. Everything else has to come second. That's the price for being a
|> great pro. Chiapucci is one of the few perfect examples. Indurain and Bugno
|> might fit the same profile but I haven't done much reading about their personal
|> lives to know for sure.
|> That's all for now.
|> Conrad ------------
This reminds me of a story about Sean Kelly. When his wife complained
about all the time he spent away racing (Kelly never took his wife to any races,
he was a proponent of the idea that sex drained a cyclists ability to race), his
wife said something like: It's always your cars, your bikes and then me. To
which Kelly replied: No, it's bikes first.
Kurt "I know why I'll never be a pro cyclist" Brunton
Daniel Cohen
>: (This part isn't from Velo-News) You might also think that a smaller
>: rider such as Bugno or LeMond would have an aerodynamic advantage over
>: a large rider such as Indurain. I think that the use of aerodynamic
>: gear narrows this advantage significantly. (Those of you who have ridden
>: into the wind with and without TT bars know what I mean).
>
>I am not convinced. A rider like Indurain still has a larger frontal
>area than a smaller rider, and will have a greater amount of aerodynamic
>drag.
Of course, but he'll also generate more power. Don't just look at the
drag, look at the power:drag ratio. I suspect that Indurain's is an
excellent build for time-trialing, what surprises me is how well he
does in the mountains where power:weight is most important (does drag
increase more or less rapidly than weight?) I'm also a little surprised
that Lemond, who seems to have more of a climber's build, is (was?)
such a good time-trialist. My suspicion is that now that other riders
have caught on to the sort of techniques/equipment Grig has pioneered,
he'll never regain his previous superiority in time-trials. Time will
tell!
Daniel Cohen Department of Computer Science
Email: d...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk Queen Mary and Westfield College
Tel: +44 71 975 5245/4/9 Mile End Road, London E1 4NS, UK
Fax: +44 81 980 6533 ******* Hit the North!!! *******
Robert J. Schwartz
Tour at that age or greater (thanks Jim H).
1919 Lambot, 33
1921 Scieur, 33
1922 Lambot, 36
1923 H. Pelissier, 34
1925 Bottecchia, 31
1926 L. Buysse, 33
1929 Dewaele, 33
1948 Bartali, 34
1950 Kubler, 31
1952 Coppi, 32
1959 Bahamontes, 31
1980 Zoetemelk, 33
Thats's 0 winners in the last 10 years, 1 in the last 30. Or, to put it
differently, we've seen only one Tour winner Greg's age or greater during
Greg's lifetime. That's not a lot. Statisically speaking, Greg is in the tail
of the bell curve, at least with respect to the Tour.
Time marches on. I don't think people realize how unusual it would have been
for Lemond to have won this year. I mean, was I the *only* person who
noticed how far down the list Sean Kelly's name was in the points competition.
With all the attention to Greg's mental state and desire to win, I just hope
we're not overlooking the obvious.
I realize we're talking about very gifted atheletes with enormous competitive
drive. I also realize we're talking about a race with very unique physical
demands. I'm not saying Greg is "over the hill". I would be thrilled to see
an athlete the same approximate age as myself win one of the world's most
difficult sporting events. 31 (or 32) is not too old (dammit!! :-). But the
numbers are there and they are not in Lemond's favor.
Greg Lemond was at the very first USCF race I ever saw, the Appleton stage
of the 1979 Wisconsin Milk Race. He broke away with Ian Jackson, losing out
in the sprint. The entire spectacle was very impressive, even more so after
I found out that Greg was still a junior. He has impressed me with his
performances many times since.
Bob Schwartz
bsch...@cray.com
Kurt Brunton
In article <1992Aug7.1...@walter.cray.com>, bsch...@gath.cray.com
(Robert J. Schwartz) writes:
|> Greg Lemond is 31 years old.
<del> all the stuff which points out that Grig is probably too old to
ever win the Tour again.
|>
|> Bob Schwartz
|> bsch...@cray.com
Hey, I can appreciate what Grig is trying to do, but I guess what gets
to me is all the Grig fans that are so willing to make excuses as to why he
didn't win the Tour. Grig doesn't help himself out one bit by coming up with at
least five excuses per day during the Tour. Why can't he face the facts that he
is too old to be competitive in the Tour and go for other wins. Does anyone
really think that if any of the other top contenders used a 180mm crank like
Indurain they would have beaten him. Go out and try it sometime, the cranks
really don't make a difference.
Kelly knows that he is no longer the sprint king that he was, and he says
that he's going to retire soon. He knows. Grig doesn't. One can compare
Kelly's record to the likes of Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, De Vlermick and other true
greats, but you can't classify Grig in this group. He just doesn't have the
results. Kelly was and is the King of the peleton.
Grig is the Dough Boy and he's over the hill. So for all you fans of his,
next year expect Grig not to be in the top ten. It's a shame though that if Grig
does not perform well, then American television will return to the Milwaukee
Bowling Tournament or the Hardies Golf Classic. Well, I didn't get to watch any
of the tour on tv this year, so I won't be disappointed next year. Thank god
VeloNews is there for those of us that want real race coverage. No other
magazine comes close. (Of course moreand more pages of this paper is being
converted to MTB racing which just isn't as interesting.)
Kurt "I'm past my prime, but I'm not complaining" Brunton
David Tan,Box 219 Baker Lab,54810,2720402
>
> The Tour de France was a real killer this time as should
> have been noted by the large number of breakaway wins. It's hard
> for any rider to maintain superiority in those conditions and
> without his overwhelming TT abilities Indurain would have been
> in serious trouble.
>
I think it's precisely because of Indurain's TTing that there were such a large
number of breakaways. The only riders Indurain needed to mark were Chiappucci
and, before the Alps, anyway, Bugno. When the race is closer, more riders
are marked and not allowed to get away, especially if the overall pace of the
race is lower (this was apparently the 2nd fastest Tour ever) and the main
contenders on the GC aren't so strung out.
I haven't seen someone dominate a Tour so thoroughly since '85, when Hinault
attacked on the 1st mountain stage and cowed the pack into submission. The
inevitable comparisons of Indurain to Hinault and Merckx keep coming up, but
he reminds me a bit more of Anquetil, with his excellent climbing and
devastating time trialing. Would that make Chiappucci his Poulidor, forever
racing his heart out, forever finishing second to an indomitable, invincible
Indurain? Well, it's early days yet, maybe Chiappucci (or someone else) will
win the next 6 Tours, maybe Indurain will lose his form, and maybe not.
Just speculating :)
sery
> [...stuff deleted...]
>
>I am not convinced. A rider like Indurain still has a larger frontal
>area than a smaller rider, and will have a greater amount of aerodynamic
>drag.
I think the determining factor is the power vs. frontal area(drag). A larger
rider will tend to have greater absolute power so if he can reduce his
frontal area proportionally more than a smaller rider than he will have a
greater advantage. I believe that areo equipment tends to do this.
>This discussion reminds me strongly of those a few years ago wherein
>people were claiming that only riders the size of LeMond, Roche, etc
>could be competitive in the TDF. The claim at that time was that racing
>had gotten so much harder since Eddy Merckx's reign that a rider of his
>build could no longer be competitive. Now that Indurain is winning, the
>same sort of arguments try to show that a larger rider such as him has
>an advantage over the smaller riders. Bicycle road racing remains a
>sport in which people having many different body types and sizes can be
I think Indurain is a superior athelete and is an exception to the "size"
rule. So was Merckx. But over time I doubt that there will ever be many
cyclists over 170lb that will be able to win the Tour (Merckx was in that
range). BTW, trivia buffs, past winners weight and height is one stat I'd
love see.
Paul Sery
Albuquerque, NM
>competitive.
>
Bruce Hildenbrand
>I think that it is entirely unfair to depict LeMond as being in
>cycling (anymore) for the money. He has already admitted on
>camera that he now has more money than he can spend in the
>rest of his life. He owns a successful restuarant and a bicycle
>manufacturing company that will be successful whether or
>not he wins anymore.
>
In my original posting, I did not say, nor intended to imply
that Greg was racing for the money. However, it is widely
known that Greg is a very shrewd businessman when it comes to
the money side of the sport.
What I was trying to say, is that there is a lot of stuff that
goes on in the sport of professional cycling that is not realted
to just pedaling the bike, things that can create huge distractions.
I felt that some of these things took the hedge off his mental
preparation for the Tour(TIOOYK).
And, contrary to what Mr. Kunich thinks, I can assure you that Greg
is very, very concerned when it come to sponsorship! Since none
of us have ever seen any figures on how his restaurant is doing,
I am not sure I would be so hasty to call it successful. Secondly,
Greg has been involved in a number of cycling realted ventures
that have lost considerable amounts of money. Lastly, he has just
recently bought an interest in CarbonFrames(and is moving
production to Reno, I hear) so I think it is too early to
say if this is a successful venture.
>
>The only reason Greg has for racing anymore is because he
>wants to. If he gets psyched-out easily now, whose to say
>that he wasn't psyched-out easily before and that there weren't
>so many great riders around then?
I am sure glad Mr. Kunich knows exactly why Greg LeMond is still
racing, maybe he should call him up and tell him!
>The Tour de France was a real killer this time as should
>have been noted by the large number of breakaway wins. It's hard
>for any rider to maintain superiority in those conditions and
>without his overwhelming TT abilities Indurain would have been
>in serious trouble.
>
As for trying to defend Greg LeMond's performance, don't bother.
As I have said time and time again, the Tour de France is an
incredibly difficult race, of such difficulty that most of us
cannot really know what these riders endure. Every year is
difficult and the fact tht Greg LeMond has won this race 3 times
and been on the podium 5 times is an incredible achievement.
For whatever reason, Greg just did not show up mentally for this
year's race. His poor performance in no way detracts from any
of his past accomplishments. Greg LeMond is a winner and no one
needs to defend him, especially from those who actually know
something about professional cycling.
Bruce
Harry Phinney
: for Lemond to have won this year.
It is unusual for any individual rider to win any particular race. Eddy
Merckx lost most of the races he competed in.
: I'm not saying Greg is "over the hill". I would be thrilled to see
: an athlete the same approximate age as myself win one of the world's most
: difficult sporting events. 31 (or 32) is not too old (dammit!! :-). But the
: numbers are there and they are not in Lemond's favor.
Greg did not just fail to win this year. He was not competitive. There
is a huge difference. It does not seem reasonable to attribute his
relatively poor performance to his age. Does anyone have statistics on
the ages of the top three finishers, as opposed to only the winners? I
seem to remember that Raymond Poulidor was about 38 the last time he
finished 2nd in the TDF. I believe he also finished second in the world
championships that year (1974?).
Harry Phinney ha...@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
Bruce Hildenbrand
>In article <1992Aug6.1...@ccd.harris.com>, k...@controls.ccd.harris.com (Kurt Brunton) writes:
>Tour De France 1992
>-------------------
>
>Banesto:
>
>o Team Leader Indurain - Won the Tour in 1991
>o 1st Lt. Delgado - Won the Tour in 1988 (right year?)
>
>Gatorade:
>
>o Team Leader Bugno - World Champion 1991, Giro Winner 1990
>o 1st Lt. Fignon - Two-time Tour winner, Two-time close second
>
>Carrera:
>
>o Team Leader Chiapucci - Always in the thick of it, eh?
>o 1st Lt. Roche - Won the Tour in 1987 (right year?)
> Won the Giro and World's that same year
>
>Z:
>
>o Team Leader LeMond - Three time Tour Winner, Two time World Pro Champ
> once second in Tour and once third
>o 1st Lt. Atle Kvolosol (sp?) - Twice second in Tour Du Pont, excellent climber
^^^^^
Thrice
Uh, you forgot
o Eric Boyer - finished top 10 in the Tour de France once or twice
o Jerome Simon - finished top 10 in the Tour de France once
o Thierry Clavereyolat - won King of Mountains Jersey 1990 Tour, 2nd in 1991
o Robert Millar - won King of Mountains Jersey 1984, numerous mountain stage
wins and finshed top ten in the Tour once or twice
>Add to this the fact that the speed of the peloton has greatly increased.
>The domestics are more interested in FICP points, stage wins and special
>category points (climbing, sprinting, etc.) so in stage races and classics
>they go full-bore throughout the entire race. Domestics are given contracts
>based upon _results_, not necessarily on how much they helped the team
>captain win races.
>
>Thus, the chance of someone totally dominating the peloton similar to Merckx
>or Hinault is greatly reduced in today's world of pro cycling.
Agreed!
Bruce
sery
>In article <1992Aug7.1...@walter.cray.com>, bsch...@gath.cray.com
> (Robert J. Schwartz) writes:
>|> Greg Lemond is 31 years old.
> <del> all the stuff which points out that Grig is probably too old to
>ever win the Tour again.
>to me is all the Grig fans that are so willing to make excuses as to why he
>didn't win the Tour. Grig doesn't help himself out one bit by coming up with
>at least five excuses per day during the Tour. Why can't he face the facts
>that he is too old to be competitive in the Tour and go for other wins. Does
>anyone really think that if any of the other top contenders used a 180mm
>crank like Indurain they would have beaten him. Go out and try it sometime,
>the cranks really don't make a difference.
I'm neither a Lemond fan nor detractor but I do respect his accomplishments.
At this time in history I don't think anyone knows at what age one becomes
too old to compete. Athletic age is being redefined at this juncture and I
think that it is too early to write off Lemond or anyone else. As to his
supposed excuses I do not think anyone could avoid being accused of making
them without using some bland standard disclaimer.
>
>Kelly knows that he is no longer the sprint king that he was, and he says
>that he's going to retire soon. He knows. Grig doesn't. One can compare
>Kelly's record to the likes of Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, De Vlermick and other
>true greats, but you can't classify Grig in this group. He just doesn't
>have the results. Kelly was and is the King of the peleton.
Okay, you're a Kelly fan. That's fine, so am I. But he has always specialized
in the Spring and Fall classics and less so for the Tour(he hasn't won a stage
since '83 or thereabouts). Lemond peaks for the Tour and the Worlds. What's
the difference? No one can hold good form through the entire season of
120-150 races!
>
>Grig is the Dough Boy and he's over the hill. So for all you fans of his,
>next year expect Grig not to be in the top ten. It's a shame though that if
>Grig does not perform well, then American television will return to the
>Milwaukee Bowling Tournament or the Hardies Golf Classic. Well, I didn't
>get to watch any of the tour on tv this year, so I won't be disappointed next
>year. Thank god VeloNews is there for those of us that want real race
>coverage. No other magazine comes close. (Of course moreand more pages of
>this paper is being converted to MTB racing which just isn't as interesting.)
You're probably right that American coverage will be negatively affected by
Lemond's lack of performence but I would like to see their ratings after
he quit. Hampsten's win should have helped and maybe there is enough real
interest now to wean the networks away from a purely American viewpoint.
Paul Sery
Albuquerque, NM
Harry Phinney
: I think Indurain is a superior athelete and is an exception to the "size"
: rule. So was Merckx. But over time I doubt that there will ever be many
: cyclists over 170lb that will be able to win the Tour (Merckx was in that
: range).
I'd take the other side of a bet on this. I predict that in the future
we will see a gradual increase in the average size of the winners. I
base this on the fact that the average size of the world's population is
increasing, and a belief that body size is relatively unimportant in
bicycle road racing. If you're willing to group Merckx and Indurain in
the same size group, then there have been 7 wins over 23 years for that
size group. Doesn't seem too bad, although I don't know what the
distribution is in the general population.
Harry (6'2":-) Phinney ha...@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
Thomas H. Kunich
>Lastly, he has just
>recently bought an interest in CarbonFrames(and is moving
>production to Reno, I hear) so I think it is too early to
>say if this is a successful venture.
If you are talking about the reported transactions between CarbonFrames
and LeMond -- in Bicycling it was reported that he had licensed the
technology. I don't recall anything about him buying them or
acquiring an interest, but maybe you have other information.>
>>The only reason Greg has for racing anymore is because he
>>wants to. If he gets psyched-out easily now, whose to say
>>that he wasn't psyched-out easily before and that there weren't
>>so many great riders around then?
>
>I am sure glad Mr. Kunich knows exactly why Greg LeMond is still
>racing, maybe he should call him up and tell him!
>
>For whatever reason, Greg just did not show up mentally for this
>year's race. His poor performance in no way detracts from any
Is there some reason you would critisize what is essentially
a truism on my part (LeMond races because he _wants_ to) and
your making an entirely unsustatiated claim (Greg wasn't there
mentally? - What are your psychiatric credentials?)>
Thomas H. Kunich
year the Tour de France was won by a man 42 years old who
was subsequently killed over the winter in a motorcar accident.
Dennis Allard
Unsure if this topic has been hammered to death as have so many others
in this group, but noticed the LeMond thread orienting itself in this
direction, so:
There are four kinds of bodies in cycling.
1. Climbers
2. Time trialists
3. Sprinters
4. Ultramarathoners
1. Climbers -- High power to weight ratio. High endurance.
Smaller size riders seem to have more power for each pound they have
to push up a hill against gravity. This is especially evident given
that they have to push ten or eleven kilograms of bicycle up the
hill with them, even though their overall power is less than that
of a larger rider.
2. Time trialists -- High power to frontal area ratio. High endurance.
Medium size riders seem to be the most optimal here.
3. Sprinters -- Highest power. Enough endurance to stay competitive.
Larger size riders have an advantage.
4. Ultramarathoners -- Highest endurance and ability to recover while riding.
All body sizes can compete in long distance multistage racing. Body
size becomes an issue to the degree that the overall course favors
climbers vs. time trialists. To the extent that the event involves very
long stages of three hundred kilometers or more, such as the original
Tour de France, Paris Brest Paris, or RAAM, the recovery issue and other
mental factors play a more important role.
Dennis Allard
all...@isi.edu
Daniel Cohen
>In article <46...@crl.LABS.TEK.COM> s...@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug6.1...@ccd.harris.com>, k...@controls.ccd.harris.com (Kurt Brunton) writes:
>
>>Tour De France 1992
>>-------------------
>>
....
>>Z:
>>
>>o Team Leader LeMond - Three time Tour Winner, Two time World Pro Champ
>> once second in Tour and once third
>>o 1st Lt. Atle Kvolosol (sp?) - Twice second in Tour Du Pont, excellent climber
> ^^^^^
> Thrice
>Uh, you forgot
> o Eric Boyer - finished top 10 in the Tour de France once or twice
> o Jerome Simon - finished top 10 in the Tour de France once
> o Thierry Clavereyolat - won King of Mountains Jersey 1990 Tour, 2nd in 1991
> o Robert Millar - won King of Mountains Jersey 1984, numerous mountain stage
> wins and finshed top ten in the Tour once or twice
Millar rode for TVM this year.
John Kim
>1. Climbers
>2. Time trialists
>3. Sprinters
>4. Ultramarathoners
I could have sworn, based on the traffic in rec.bicycles, that
it really looks like this:
1. Homebodies
2. Busybodies
3. Nissan Hardbodies
4. Nobodies
1. Homebodies: high hominess to intelligence ratio, low endurance
Lower intelligence couples with high willpower enables them
to argue against reason and empirical evidence when it comes
to mettalurgy, aerodynamics, nutrition, and which pro rider
deserves what.
2. Busybodies: high nosiness to manners ratio, high high levels of
endurance (never lack the energy to flame)
Larger sized mouthes (or faster typing fingers) have the
advantage here.
3. Nissan Hardbodies: high motor-vehicle to bicycle ownership ratio
Often excelletn cyclists, but like to put the MTBs in back and
drive out to where the real singletrack is.
4. Nobodies: no outstanding characteristics.
>
>4. Ultramarathoners -- Highest endurance and ability to recover from
> flames while typing. They just keep posting and posting and posting....
>All body sizes can compete in high volume flame wars. Brain
>size becomes an issue to the degree that the overall course favors
>pseudo-scientific argument vs. sheer ASCII post volume. In
>long wars of three hundred posts or more, such as the original
>Helmet flame wars, Paris Brest Paris, or RAAM, the recovery issue and other
>mental factors play a more important role, as well as the thickness of
>ones skin or the quality of ones asbestos suit.
>Dennisport Classic
>all...@harvard.lampoon.comedy.writer.mafia.isi.edu
-Case
Bruce Hildenbrand
>In <l85fc6...@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhi...@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>....
>>>Z:
>>>
>>>o Team Leader LeMond - Three time Tour Winner, Two time World Pro Champ
>>> once second in Tour and once third
>> o Robert Millar - won King of Mountains Jersey 1984, numerous mountain stage
>> wins and finshed top ten in the Tour once or twice
>
>
>Millar rode for TVM this year.
Kudos to Daniel for not letting me get away with this one. I was putting
together a tape for a talk to a bicycle club and used the 1989 Superbagneres
finish in the Tour de France(TIOOYK) and Robert Millar won the stage riding
for "Z". I realized the mistake a couple of hours after posting it and
wondered if anybody would catch it.
Bruce
Russ Corfman
> the ages of the top three finishers, as opposed to only the winners? I
> seem to remember that Raymond Poulidor was about 38 the last time he
> finished 2nd in the TDF. I believe he also finished second in the world
> championships that year (1974?).
Actually, I don't think Poulidor placed second in the Tour more than once,
twice at the most. He does hold the record for the most top three placings
without a win though, something like eight.
Joop Joetemelk is the Tour bridesmaid with a whopping six second places.
He also had a couple of thirds (I think) and finally a win. One thing a
lot of people don't know is that when he was reaching his potential he
got very ill or had a bad crash (can't remember which, think it was the
former). It was thought his career was over but he came back. It is said
that he missed his best years because of this and whether Eddie Merckz
would have (could have?) still dominated with Joop is questionable.
Ciao,
--
Russell Corfman
AG Communication Systems; Phoenix, AZ
UUCP: ...!{ncar!noao!enuucp | att}!gtephx!corfmanr
Internet: gtephx!corf...@enuucp.eas.asu.edu
(602) 581-4403