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Bike adjustments
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lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 7, 2019, 6:28:56 PM12/7/19
to
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5
So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
Lou
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5
So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
Lou
jbeattie
Dec 7, 2019, 6:49:42 PM12/7/19
to
The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?
Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.
-- Jay Beattie.
Andre Jute
Dec 7, 2019, 7:17:45 PM12/7/19
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On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
> Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
Andre Jute
My bikes all fit me to within 1mm. Why shouldn't they?
jbeattie
Dec 7, 2019, 10:13:30 PM12/7/19
to
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
>
> > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
>
> In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
>
> > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
>
> In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
-- Jay Beattie.
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 8, 2019, 2:03:34 AM12/8/19
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Lou.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 2:20:33 AM12/8/19
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the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.
It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
Guy Gadboit
Dec 8, 2019, 6:13:19 AM12/8/19
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All that stuff about measuring your foot length and recommending funny ST angles is probably because it's working out how to get your knee over the pedal spindle (see https://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html).
There's a lot of opacity around how these fit calculators work. I think many of them just produce numbers which are simple linear combinations of the measurements you put in with builtin coefficients.
There's a lot of opacity around how these fit calculators work. I think many of them just produce numbers which are simple linear combinations of the measurements you put in with builtin coefficients.
sms
Dec 8, 2019, 7:00:40 AM12/8/19
to
On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
No.
It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
years later it's too big for me.
Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
fit─kind of, sort of. It's like the old Midas Muffler commercial where
the customer asks "do you have a muffler that will fit my car" and the
mechanic answers "fit? we'll make it fit" and proceeds to use a
collection of adapters to create something that can be used.
This approach has benefited custom manufacturers. One short friend of
mine ended up with a beautiful custom titanium frame road bicycle.
Because a triple crankset is preferred in this area, especially for
older riders, she had to go with a Shimano 105 group.
<snip>
Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
years later it's too big for me.
Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
fit─kind of, sort of. It's like the old Midas Muffler commercial where
the customer asks "do you have a muffler that will fit my car" and the
mechanic answers "fit? we'll make it fit" and proceeds to use a
collection of adapters to create something that can be used.
This approach has benefited custom manufacturers. One short friend of
mine ended up with a beautiful custom titanium frame road bicycle.
Because a triple crankset is preferred in this area, especially for
older riders, she had to go with a Shimano 105 group.
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 8, 2019, 7:02:37 AM12/8/19
to
Lou
Tom Kunich
Dec 8, 2019, 9:39:25 AM12/8/19
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On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
His wife was measured and hers was exactly the stock size.
Tom Kunich
Dec 8, 2019, 9:40:40 AM12/8/19
to
Tom Kunich
Dec 8, 2019, 9:44:07 AM12/8/19
to
Frank Krygowski
Dec 8, 2019, 11:20:47 AM12/8/19
to
The only people on bikes back then must have been the crazies and the
masochists. Thank God the marketing industry has saved us!
--
- Frank Krygowski
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 8, 2019, 11:32:37 AM12/8/19
to
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:00:40 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
> On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
>
> No.
>
> It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
> cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
> might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
> close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
> vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
> ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
> conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
> for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
> years later it's too big for me.
I have to disagree with you. Most frames come in 7 sizes now. That is not different than in the past. The frame I am looking at comes in 50-52-54-55-56-58-60 cm effective top tube length. I'm about medium so I can choose between 54-55-56 cm. Most fitting programs advice a 56 cm frame. Most of the time I end up with a one size smaller frame. I'm still quite flexible in my back (still can lay my hands flat on the floor standing up) so a lower handlebar is not much of a problem, within limits of course. It is the reach I find uncomfortable. After 34 years you entitled to new frame I would say ;-)
> On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
>
> No.
>
> It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
> cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
> might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
> close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
> vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
> ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
> conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
> for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
> years later it's too big for me.
> Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
> now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
> various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
> fit─kind of, sort of. It's like the old Midas Muffler commercial where
> the customer asks "do you have a muffler that will fit my car" and the
> mechanic answers "fit? we'll make it fit" and proceeds to use a
> collection of adapters to create something that can be used.
> This approach has benefited custom manufacturers. One short friend of
> mine ended up with a beautiful custom titanium frame road bicycle.
> Because a triple crankset is preferred in this area, especially for
> older riders, she had to go with a Shimano 105 group.
Lou
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 8, 2019, 11:34:50 AM12/8/19
to
Lou
jbeattie
Dec 8, 2019, 11:52:07 AM12/8/19
to
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:00:40 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
>
> No.
>
> It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
> cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
> might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
> close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
> vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
> ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
> conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
> for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
> years later it's too big for me.
Yes, stock frames came in 2cm increments with often dreadful "scaling up" for larger frames that ended up with too short top tubes. Even after the LeMond longer top tube revolution, Colnago steel frames in 1994 in the 63cm size (my size) had TTs that were a full 1 -1.5 centimeter (not mm)shorter than current sizing conventions. https://saarf00.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/21.jpg It was more likely that you would need a custom frame back then than now.
> On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
>
> No.
>
> It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
> cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
> might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
> close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
> vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
> ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
> conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
> for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
> years later it's too big for me.
Also, back in the day, it was all obscure knowledge and mysticism about how one should fit on a bike -- flat back, hump back, KOP or not, etc., etc. There were no fit kits and master fitters and all the things that lead to prescriptive size and position that are popular today. Even custom builders back then tended to make bikes with shortish top tubes.
I had five custom steel frames built for me (ultimately all broken or stolen). When I cracked a head tube lug on my racing bike in 1984, I needed a quick replacement and found a first generation Cannondale at a local store. It fit great, and I never looked back. On a lark,many years later, I re-brazed by broken racing frame and brought it back from the dead. Even with a 13cm stem, the TT was too short for my tastes. I couldn't imagine how I raced that thing and loved it.
-- Jay Beattie.
jbeattie
Dec 8, 2019, 12:11:23 PM12/8/19
to
-- Jay Beattie.
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 8, 2019, 12:38:30 PM12/8/19
to
Lou
sms
Dec 8, 2019, 2:22:38 PM12/8/19
to
On 12/8/2019 8:32 AM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
> I have to disagree with you. Most frames come in 7 sizes now. That is not different than in the past. The frame I am looking at comes in 50-52-54-55-56-58-60 cm effective top tube length. I'm about medium so I can choose between 54-55-56 cm. Most fitting programs advice a 56 cm frame. Most of the time I end up with a one size smaller frame. I'm still quite flexible in my back (still can lay my hands flat on the floor standing up) so a lower handlebar is not much of a problem, within limits of course. It is the reach I find uncomfortable. After 34 years you entitled to new frame I would say ;-)
You made it sound like you were getting a custom frame made. Yes, 7
sizes (I often see only 5 or 6 sizes listed with 3 cm differences) is
sufficient and various component changes (stems, seat tubes, head tubes,
and extenders can be used to get an optimal fit.
For me, my "sport touring" Specialized 56cm is fine for the road. I
don't really have a gravel bike at this time. I guess the closest thing
is my son's old bike that I put some Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires on.
Maybe I'll get some of Schwalbe's Hurricane gravel tires but they offer
less protection than the Marathon Plus. If I buy any more bicycles I'd
need to also hire a lawyer.
<snip>
> I have to disagree with you. Most frames come in 7 sizes now. That is not different than in the past. The frame I am looking at comes in 50-52-54-55-56-58-60 cm effective top tube length. I'm about medium so I can choose between 54-55-56 cm. Most fitting programs advice a 56 cm frame. Most of the time I end up with a one size smaller frame. I'm still quite flexible in my back (still can lay my hands flat on the floor standing up) so a lower handlebar is not much of a problem, within limits of course. It is the reach I find uncomfortable. After 34 years you entitled to new frame I would say ;-)
sizes (I often see only 5 or 6 sizes listed with 3 cm differences) is
sufficient and various component changes (stems, seat tubes, head tubes,
and extenders can be used to get an optimal fit.
For me, my "sport touring" Specialized 56cm is fine for the road. I
don't really have a gravel bike at this time. I guess the closest thing
is my son's old bike that I put some Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires on.
Maybe I'll get some of Schwalbe's Hurricane gravel tires but they offer
less protection than the Marathon Plus. If I buy any more bicycles I'd
need to also hire a lawyer.
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 8, 2019, 3:54:00 PM12/8/19
to
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
>Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
>fit?kind of, sort of.
Agreed. That sort of works:
<https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
wrote:
>Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
Agreed. That sort of works:
<https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ralph Barone
Dec 8, 2019, 6:33:00 PM12/8/19
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>> now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>> various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
>> fit?kind of, sort of.
>
> Agreed. That sort of works:
> <https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
>
I’m not sure where you would get the seat post, stem and spacers to make
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>> now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>> various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
>> fit?kind of, sort of.
>
> Agreed. That sort of works:
> <https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
>
that bike work, but aside from way too much frame flex and steering that
would feel like a tiller, I suppose you could make it work.
jbeattie
Dec 8, 2019, 6:56:03 PM12/8/19
to
-- Jay Beattie.
-- Jay Beattie.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 6:57:20 PM12/8/19
to
reach the pedals better? Do your hands reach the handlebars better?
But tell us how far back your memories reach. Brooks, for example made
various models of bicycle seats in 1880
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 7:04:40 PM12/8/19
to
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 08:52:04 -0800 (PST), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:
Ah, but are you as strong and lithe today as you were 30 years ago?
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
--
cheers,
John B.
jbeattie
Dec 8, 2019, 7:05:13 PM12/8/19
to
-- Jay Beattie.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 8, 2019, 7:17:34 PM12/8/19
to
--
- Frank Krygowski
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 8, 2019, 7:17:44 PM12/8/19
to
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Trek-1400.html>
I really liked the bicycle, but the frame was too small for me. I
forgot the official frame size, but it seemed to be made for someone
smaller and shorter. I could extend the seat post, stem, crank
length, and handlebars. However I could do nothing to prevent my feet
from hitting the trailing end of the front wheel.
I suspect doing the same (extended seat post, stem, crank, and
handlebars, would fail for the same reasons on the Gitane frame in the
photo. Of course, larger diameter wheels would be needed, possibly
using fork extenders. While the Gitane frame might be an extreme
example, I question whether adding extensions will be all that
practical for even slightly undersized frames. I don't know as I've
never tried it.
Incidentally, I don't seem to have much of a problem adjusting to
variations in fit. At one point, I owned 5 or 6 bicycles.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/5bikes.html>
I often rotated components on 3 of these for experiments. It would
take me a few minutes of riding to adjust, after which some minor
tweaks would eventually produce a usable fit. Except for the
occasional really bad idea or really sloppy adjustment, I had no
problems adjusting to changes. It's much the same with pianos,
organs, and computah keyboards, where each keyboard is very different,
and requires some time to adjust. If I were trying to optimize
performance or endurance, I might be more particular, but asking for a
1mm tolerance to be considered acceptable, is far beyond what I
consider to be necessary.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 7:30:41 PM12/8/19
to
bike fitting is simply to justify the several hundred dollars that
being "properly" fitted costs?
See https://www.bcbikefit.com/pricing/
Just think 2 hours and $395 and your "mobile" bike will fit.
To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
there immobile bikes?
--
cheers,
John B.
Andre Jute
Dec 8, 2019, 7:32:22 PM12/8/19
to
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> >
> > In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
>
> What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?
> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> >
> > In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
>
> What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
> My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
> What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.
If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.
> Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,
>what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
Andre Jute
My bike still fits me to within 1mm. In twenty years, when I'm as old and creaky as Jay, I might have to adjust it.
AMuzi
Dec 8, 2019, 7:58:54 PM12/8/19
to
Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
bike riders/customers.
Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
longer.
http://gunnarbikes.com
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Andre Jute
Dec 8, 2019, 8:01:59 PM12/8/19
to
*****
The customer complained that his new suit didn't fit. 'The sleeves are too short,' he said to the tailor.
'Yes sir,' said the tailor, 'but if you hold your arm just so, at an angle as if you're drinking tea with your auntie, it will show just the right amount of cuff.'
The customer tried it. The tailor was right! 'But what about the other sleeve? It is definitely too short.'
'Just lower your shoulder, sir. Yes, yes, a little more. Put your foot out so you can lower your shoulder a little more still. Bend your knee. Yes, that's it. See how beautifully your suitcoat now fits?'
The customer had to admit the tailor was right. 'Wow. But now the leg of the pants is all twisted around.'
'That's easily fixed,' said the tailor. 'Just point your other toe westward, sir, and look over your shoulder to where I am holding up the hand mirror. See? Doesn't that fit beautifully?'
'Yes,' the customer said doubtfully, 'but-'
'Now would sir like to wear his brilliant new suit or shall we wrap it?'
The customer was too intimidated to argue. He walked out into the street in his new suit, his arm crooked as if he were drinking tea, his other shoulder well down over a bent knee with his foot out to the side, his other foot pointing westwards, his head twisted back between hunched shoulders as if complaining to God about a cruel fate.
Behind him he heard a boy say to his father. 'Oh, Daddy, look at the poor twisted cripple.'
'Hush,' the father said. 'Be grateful the poor man found such a brilliant tailor.'
From http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/KISS%20123%20by%20Andre%20Jute.htm
****
Andre Jute
Euphonics
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 8:02:41 PM12/8/19
to
On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 16:17:36 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
overlap" as it is called is quite common. At least one company,
"Thorn Cycles" used to mention that a bike had "toe overlap" in their
catalog. Generally more common in high performance bikes. Sheldon
mentions it and says, " Many, many people ride bicycles with fairly
severe overlap with no practical problems"
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 23:32:55 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
><ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>>>> now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>>>> various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
>>>> fit?kind of, sort of.
>>>
>>> Agreed. That sort of works:
>>> <https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
>
>>I’m not sure where you would get the seat post, stem and spacers to make
>>that bike work, but aside from way too much frame flex and steering that
>>would feel like a tiller, I suppose you could make it work.
>
>Probably not. I recently gave away a Trek 1400 road bike:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Trek-1400.html>
>I really liked the bicycle, but the frame was too small for me. I
>forgot the official frame size, but it seemed to be made for someone
>smaller and shorter. I could extend the seat post, stem, crank
>length, and handlebars. However I could do nothing to prevent my feet
>from hitting the trailing end of the front wheel.
Not to argue about your bike size but "toe interference" or "toe
>On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 23:32:55 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
><ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>>>> now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>>>> various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
>>>> fit?kind of, sort of.
>>>
>>> Agreed. That sort of works:
>>> <https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
>
>>I’m not sure where you would get the seat post, stem and spacers to make
>>that bike work, but aside from way too much frame flex and steering that
>>would feel like a tiller, I suppose you could make it work.
>
>Probably not. I recently gave away a Trek 1400 road bike:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Trek-1400.html>
>I really liked the bicycle, but the frame was too small for me. I
>forgot the official frame size, but it seemed to be made for someone
>smaller and shorter. I could extend the seat post, stem, crank
>length, and handlebars. However I could do nothing to prevent my feet
>from hitting the trailing end of the front wheel.
overlap" as it is called is quite common. At least one company,
"Thorn Cycles" used to mention that a bike had "toe overlap" in their
catalog. Generally more common in high performance bikes. Sheldon
mentions it and says, " Many, many people ride bicycles with fairly
severe overlap with no practical problems"
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 8:04:28 PM12/8/19
to
all he was blamed for. No other way he could have been in California
one night and Ohio the next.
--
cheers,
John B.
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 8, 2019, 8:31:26 PM12/8/19
to
On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 07:30:37 +0700, John B.
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>there immobile bikes?
Yes, there is such a thing as an immovable bicycle:
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>there immobile bikes?
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrought+iron+bicycle>
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+sculpture>
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=inflatable+advertising+bicycle>
etc...
Andre Jute
Dec 8, 2019, 8:36:17 PM12/8/19
to
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:58:54 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>
> 'Gunar abortion' WTF?
>
> Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
> bike riders/customers.
>
> Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
> geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
> longer.
>
> http://gunnarbikes.com
>
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
This is the reference, posted by one AMuzi:
>
> 'Gunar abortion' WTF?
>
> Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
> bike riders/customers.
>
> Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
> geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
> longer.
>
> http://gunnarbikes.com
>
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg
Andre Jute
Eiditic
James
Dec 8, 2019, 8:48:40 PM12/8/19
to
On 8/12/19 10:28 am, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last
> Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program
> didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in
> contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most
> of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday
> so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted
> by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5
>
> So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to
> discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a
> drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the
> measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this
> came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E,
> F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size
> taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new
> Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into
> account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly
> do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these
> As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last
> Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program
> didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in
> contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most
> of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday
> so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted
> by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5
>
> So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to
> discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a
> drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the
> measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this
> came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E,
> F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size
> taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new
> Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into
> account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly
> measurements?
>
The last bike I bought (gravel) was advertised with a chart that was
scaled to leg length. According to my leg length I should have chosen
an XL frame, but I reviewed the frame angles and geometry against my
custom road racing bike, and decided on a L size frame. The XL would
have had my hands too high. Even so, with the L frame I have the head
stem all the way down, and I used a longer stem than the supplied one of
course, and I used a longer seat post too.
I also dislike the sloping top tube "compact" design, for the simple
reasons that;
a) longer frame tubes would probably weigh less than a long seat post,
and a longer seat post likely stresses the frame more.
b) the sloping top tube is very difficult to sit on while you're stopped
somewhere to admire the view and eat a banana.
c) the area in the triangle is reduced which restricts that available to
carry water bottles or frame bags and stuff, if you so desire.
--
JS
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 8, 2019, 8:57:05 PM12/8/19
to
On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 08:02:36 +0700, John B.
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>Not to argue about your bike size but "toe interference" or "toe
>overlap" as it is called is quite common. At least one company,
>"Thorn Cycles" used to mention that a bike had "toe overlap" in their
>catalog. Generally more common in high performance bikes.
Yep, anything with a steep head tube angle and a short wheelbase will
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>Not to argue about your bike size but "toe interference" or "toe
>overlap" as it is called is quite common. At least one company,
>"Thorn Cycles" used to mention that a bike had "toe overlap" in their
>catalog. Generally more common in high performance bikes.
have the problem. I managed to make things worse by routinely wearing
steel toe construction boots while riding. It became an issue after
several low speed crashes while cornering. On my Trek 1400, I once
measured the angle on the front wheel where my toe might overlap the
front wheel. Methinks it was a fairly large 30 degrees, with the
forward motion of my heel stopped by the pedal. I just checked my
Gary Fisher Tassajara:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Gary-Fisher-Tassajara.html>
and found about 5 degrees overlap (again with construction boots). I
previously tried to use toe clips to reduce the toe interference on my
Trek 1400, but couldn't find toe clips that would also work with
platform pedals (so that the waffle pattern soles will slide easily).
I could probably have made something work with custom front fork
extensions and disk brakes, which would increase the wheelbase, but
didn't think it was worth the effort.
>Sheldon
>mentions it and says, " Many, many people ride bicycles with fairly
>severe overlap with no practical problems"
interference problem.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 9:14:00 PM12/8/19
to
On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:56:58 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 08:02:36 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>Not to argue about your bike size but "toe interference" or "toe
>>overlap" as it is called is quite common. At least one company,
>>"Thorn Cycles" used to mention that a bike had "toe overlap" in their
>>catalog. Generally more common in high performance bikes.
>
>Yep, anything with a steep head tube angle and a short wheelbase will
>have the problem. I managed to make things worse by routinely wearing
>steel toe construction boots while riding. It became an issue after
>several low speed crashes while cornering. On my Trek 1400, I once
>measured the angle on the front wheel where my toe might overlap the
>front wheel. Methinks it was a fairly large 30 degrees, with the
>forward motion of my heel stopped by the pedal. I just checked my
>Gary Fisher Tassajara:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Gary-Fisher-Tassajara.html>
>and found about 5 degrees overlap (again with construction boots). I
>previously tried to use toe clips to reduce the toe interference on my
>Trek 1400, but couldn't find toe clips that would also work with
>platform pedals (so that the waffle pattern soles will slide easily).
?? https://www.amazon.com/bicycle-toe-clips/s?k=bicycle+toe+clips
>I could probably have made something work with custom front fork
>extensions and disk brakes, which would increase the wheelbase, but
>didn't think it was worth the effort.
>
>>Sheldon
>>mentions it and says, " Many, many people ride bicycles with fairly
>>severe overlap with no practical problems"
>
>My other bicycles have a longer wheelbase and therefore less of a toe
>interference problem.
I'm not up on "modern" bicycles as all my bikes are "classic" steel
frame, level top tube, etc., and they all have toe overlap and I have
never found it to be a problem as I can't imagine ever turning the
wheel far enough to hit my toe at even walking speeds,
If I start out up a hill than yes, perhaps for the first revolution or
so of the crank I will be traveling slowly enough to have too turn the
wheel back and forth, far enough to hit my toe, to keep balanced but
other than that I have never had a problem.
But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 08:02:36 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>Not to argue about your bike size but "toe interference" or "toe
>>overlap" as it is called is quite common. At least one company,
>>"Thorn Cycles" used to mention that a bike had "toe overlap" in their
>>catalog. Generally more common in high performance bikes.
>
>Yep, anything with a steep head tube angle and a short wheelbase will
>have the problem. I managed to make things worse by routinely wearing
>steel toe construction boots while riding. It became an issue after
>several low speed crashes while cornering. On my Trek 1400, I once
>measured the angle on the front wheel where my toe might overlap the
>front wheel. Methinks it was a fairly large 30 degrees, with the
>forward motion of my heel stopped by the pedal. I just checked my
>Gary Fisher Tassajara:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Gary-Fisher-Tassajara.html>
>and found about 5 degrees overlap (again with construction boots). I
>previously tried to use toe clips to reduce the toe interference on my
>Trek 1400, but couldn't find toe clips that would also work with
>platform pedals (so that the waffle pattern soles will slide easily).
>I could probably have made something work with custom front fork
>extensions and disk brakes, which would increase the wheelbase, but
>didn't think it was worth the effort.
>
>>Sheldon
>>mentions it and says, " Many, many people ride bicycles with fairly
>>severe overlap with no practical problems"
>
>My other bicycles have a longer wheelbase and therefore less of a toe
>interference problem.
frame, level top tube, etc., and they all have toe overlap and I have
never found it to be a problem as I can't imagine ever turning the
wheel far enough to hit my toe at even walking speeds,
If I start out up a hill than yes, perhaps for the first revolution or
so of the crank I will be traveling slowly enough to have too turn the
wheel back and forth, far enough to hit my toe, to keep balanced but
other than that I have never had a problem.
But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 9:15:45 PM12/8/19
to
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:48:30 +1100, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Added to that you can't carry anyone sitting side saddle on the top
tube as we used to do :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
tube as we used to do :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 9:17:15 PM12/8/19
to
On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:31:18 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 07:30:37 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>>there immobile bikes?
>
>Yes, there is such a thing as an immovable bicycle:
><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrought+iron+bicycle>
><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+sculpture>
><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=inflatable+advertising+bicycle>
>etc...
Ah yes. But does one have to pay good money to be fitted to them :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 07:30:37 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>>there immobile bikes?
>
>Yes, there is such a thing as an immovable bicycle:
><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrought+iron+bicycle>
><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+sculpture>
><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=inflatable+advertising+bicycle>
>etc...
--
cheers,
John B.
AMuzi
Dec 8, 2019, 9:46:37 PM12/8/19
to
On 12/8/2019 7:36 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:58:54 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> 'Gunar abortion' WTF?
>>
>> Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
>> bike riders/customers.
>>
>> Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
>> geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
>> longer.
>>
>> http://gunnarbikes.com
>>
>>
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:58:54 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> 'Gunar abortion' WTF?
>>
>> Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
>> bike riders/customers.
>>
>> Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
>> geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
>> longer.
>>
>> http://gunnarbikes.com
>>
>>
> This is the reference, posted by one AMuzi:
> http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg
>
> Andre Jute
> Eiditic
>
Ahem.
> http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg
>
> Andre Jute
> Eiditic
>
Had Mr Ming wanted something different, Gunnar would have
built it differently. Hence the term 'custom'.
http://gunnarbikes.com/site/order/custom-order-form/
sms
Dec 8, 2019, 9:46:39 PM12/8/19
to
On 12/8/2019 12:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>> now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>> various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
>> fit?kind of, sort of.
>
> Agreed. That sort of works:
> <https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
Yes, compact frames are suitable for all size cyclists with appropriate
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
>> now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
>> various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
>> fit?kind of, sort of.
>
> Agreed. That sort of works:
> <https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg>
stems, extenders, and seat posts.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 8, 2019, 9:47:45 PM12/8/19
to
fenders, which increases the overlap. It's been that way for decades and
never caused me a problem.
But I've been on a ride with a friend who managed to topple when pulling
away from a stop sign because of the overlap. He was talking while we
were stopped and didn't realize that he'd turned his steering so the
rear of the tire was outside his toe. As soon as he started up, he
realized it, but too late.
--
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
Dec 8, 2019, 9:48:49 PM12/8/19
to
The #1 item in custom orders is 'level top tube'.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 8, 2019, 10:05:48 PM12/8/19
to
bikes? You get to work up a sweat while going nowhere.
OK for winter, I guess, if it's your thing. But it's hard for me to
understand driving to a spin class any time of year, especially if it's
not winter.
BTW, a Peloton ad recently got the internet's ire up.
https://www.thecut.com/2019/12/peloton-stock-drops-9-percent-following-widely-criticized-ad.html
--
- Frank Krygowski
John B.
Dec 8, 2019, 11:20:25 PM12/8/19
to
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 22:05:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Yup. My neighbor, the Cop, has one and I see him most mornings
pedalling away. But I didn't know it was called an "immobile". I
looked on the Internet and they seem to be now called a " fitness
tracker". Strange, I always thought that they were called a
"stationary bicycle", but of course that's wrong too as they only have
one "wheel" :-)
>OK for winter, I guess, if it's your thing. But it's hard for me to
>understand driving to a spin class any time of year, especially if it's
>not winter.
It is "winter" here although typically it should be the Dry Season
with reasonable temperatures but it is down to 20 degrees (C) which is
tremendously cold for here. Everyone is wearing great padded coats and
long trousers.
According to the Weather Bureau it is a gift from China.
>BTW, a Peloton ad recently got the internet's ire up.
>https://www.thecut.com/2019/12/peloton-stock-drops-9-percent-following-widely-criticized-ad.html
Well, I thought that the film was a bit on the "wacky" side but I
don't think it was anything to get upset about. Really no different
than "Honey, do you want to hear what I did today?" is it?
--
cheers,
John B.
pedalling away. But I didn't know it was called an "immobile". I
looked on the Internet and they seem to be now called a " fitness
tracker". Strange, I always thought that they were called a
"stationary bicycle", but of course that's wrong too as they only have
one "wheel" :-)
>OK for winter, I guess, if it's your thing. But it's hard for me to
>understand driving to a spin class any time of year, especially if it's
>not winter.
with reasonable temperatures but it is down to 20 degrees (C) which is
tremendously cold for here. Everyone is wearing great padded coats and
long trousers.
According to the Weather Bureau it is a gift from China.
>BTW, a Peloton ad recently got the internet's ire up.
>https://www.thecut.com/2019/12/peloton-stock-drops-9-percent-following-widely-criticized-ad.html
don't think it was anything to get upset about. Really no different
than "Honey, do you want to hear what I did today?" is it?
--
cheers,
John B.
Tosspot
Dec 9, 2019, 1:14:55 AM12/9/19
to
maneuvering around street furniture, pedestrians, junctions etc. Also,
adding mudguards doesn't help :-(
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 9, 2019, 2:15:51 AM12/9/19
to
On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:17:13 +0700, John B.
various charges. There are planning fees, construction permits,
environmental impact reports, aesthetic committee approval charges,
inspection fees, assorted licenses, and the usual bribes required to
deploy a non-moving bicycle. Think of these as converting your good
private sector money into their bad public sector money.
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:31:18 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 07:30:37 +0700, John B.
>><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>
>>>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>>>there immobile bikes?
>>
>>Yes, there is such a thing as an immovable bicycle:
>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrought+iron+bicycle>
>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+sculpture>
>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=inflatable+advertising+bicycle>
>>etc...
>
>Ah yes. But does one have to pay good money to be fitted to them :-)
No. However, you don't need to ride such a bicycle to be subject to
>On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:31:18 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 07:30:37 +0700, John B.
>><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>
>>>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>>>there immobile bikes?
>>
>>Yes, there is such a thing as an immovable bicycle:
>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrought+iron+bicycle>
>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+sculpture>
>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=inflatable+advertising+bicycle>
>>etc...
>
>Ah yes. But does one have to pay good money to be fitted to them :-)
various charges. There are planning fees, construction permits,
environmental impact reports, aesthetic committee approval charges,
inspection fees, assorted licenses, and the usual bribes required to
deploy a non-moving bicycle. Think of these as converting your good
private sector money into their bad public sector money.
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 9, 2019, 2:27:34 AM12/9/19
to
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:57:20 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
> reach the pedals better? Do your hands reach the handlebars better?
Never said that. Chosing a bike frame by just stand over height doesn't work anymore with sloping top tubes and handlebars that come in different shapes (drop and reach).
>
> But tell us how far back your memories reach. Brooks, for example made
> various models of bicycle seats in 1880
> --
You are playing silly again.
Lou
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:02:35 -0800 (PST), lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> >> >> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lou
> >> >>
> >> >> Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> >> >>
> >> >> The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
> >> >> What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?
> >> >>
> >> >> Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)
> >> >
> >> >Lou.
> >>
> >> It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
> >> the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
> >> make any more changes.
> >>
> >> It still works for me :-)
> >> --
> >> cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.
> >
> >Lou
>
> Really? And just how are modern bikes fitted better? Do your feet
>
> >On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> >> >> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> > As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lou
> >> >>
> >> >> Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> >> >>
> >> >> The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
> >> >> What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?
> >> >>
> >> >> Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)
> >> >
> >> >Lou.
> >>
> >> It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
> >> the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
> >> make any more changes.
> >>
> >> It still works for me :-)
> >> --
> >> cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.
> >
> >Lou
>
> reach the pedals better? Do your hands reach the handlebars better?
Never said that. Chosing a bike frame by just stand over height doesn't work anymore with sloping top tubes and handlebars that come in different shapes (drop and reach).
>
> But tell us how far back your memories reach. Brooks, for example made
> various models of bicycle seats in 1880
> --
You are playing silly again.
Lou
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 9, 2019, 2:39:27 AM12/9/19
to
Lou
John B.
Dec 9, 2019, 3:21:33 AM12/9/19
to
horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from".
I was amazed that you could be that old and asked you how far back
your memories went. Certainly if you could remember back when there
were only two bicycle seats to choose from it must have been Before
Brooks (for example) started selling more than one model of seat.
So who's being silly? You for exaggerations to bolster your arguments?
Or me for questioning your exaggerations?
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 9, 2019, 3:26:58 AM12/9/19
to
On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 23:15:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
those special paths for bicycles so they can be ridden in safety. Just
imagine, if only more money was spent and more bicycle paths were
built perhaps everyone would be riding a bike instead of playing games
on their hand phone :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:17:13 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:31:18 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 07:30:37 +0700, John B.
>>><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>>
>>>>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>>>>there immobile bikes?
>>>
>>>Yes, there is such a thing as an immovable bicycle:
>>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrought+iron+bicycle>
>>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+sculpture>
>>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=inflatable+advertising+bicycle>
>>>etc...
>>
>>Ah yes. But does one have to pay good money to be fitted to them :-)
>
>No. However, you don't need to ride such a bicycle to be subject to
>various charges. There are planning fees, construction permits,
>environmental impact reports, aesthetic committee approval charges,
>inspection fees, assorted licenses, and the usual bribes required to
>deploy a non-moving bicycle. Think of these as converting your good
>private sector money into their bad public sector money.
No! No! Public sector money is wonderful! Why they use it to build
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:17:13 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:31:18 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 07:30:37 +0700, John B.
>>><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>>
>>>>To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
>>>>there immobile bikes?
>>>
>>>Yes, there is such a thing as an immovable bicycle:
>>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrought+iron+bicycle>
>>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+sculpture>
>>><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=inflatable+advertising+bicycle>
>>>etc...
>>
>>Ah yes. But does one have to pay good money to be fitted to them :-)
>
>No. However, you don't need to ride such a bicycle to be subject to
>various charges. There are planning fees, construction permits,
>environmental impact reports, aesthetic committee approval charges,
>inspection fees, assorted licenses, and the usual bribes required to
>deploy a non-moving bicycle. Think of these as converting your good
>private sector money into their bad public sector money.
those special paths for bicycles so they can be ridden in safety. Just
imagine, if only more money was spent and more bicycle paths were
built perhaps everyone would be riding a bike instead of playing games
on their hand phone :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
Andre Jute
Dec 9, 2019, 6:55:26 AM12/9/19
to
Andre Jute
Dec 9, 2019, 7:05:32 AM12/9/19
to
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 3:05:48 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> BTW, a Peloton ad recently got the internet's ire up.
> https://www.thecut.com/2019/12/peloton-stock-drops-9-percent-following-widely-criticized-ad.html
All that tells you, Franki-boy, is that their marketing department and advertising agency suffered an explosion of group think, with predictable results, magnified by the constant malice of little people like you whose malice is empowered by social media on their phones.
>
> BTW, a Peloton ad recently got the internet's ire up.
> https://www.thecut.com/2019/12/peloton-stock-drops-9-percent-following-widely-criticized-ad.html
It tells the rest of us that you're so weak-minded that, despite your claims to be a "spokesman for bicycles", you gloat about damage done to a corporation that might well in time have put a few people on bicycles. It also tells us you're so railroad-minded that you cannot see that these Peloton people were creating an avenue for proselytising potential cyclists.
Once more everyone runs into the pot-iron barriers around what little there is of your mind. Those pot-iron barriers aren't much good if they leak malice on the scale visible in this post of yours.
Andre Jute
Longtime observer of cyclists (and their wannabe "spokesmen") shooting themselves and each other in the foot
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 9, 2019, 7:27:12 AM12/9/19
to
- preference,
- riding style,
- your physical condition/ability,
- body proportions.
Today there is a lot more choices in handlebar drop/reach, frame geometries and saddles then there were in the past. They all determine were your butt, hands and feet end up giving a particular frame. A simple test if your nutts don't hit the top tube and the lower/raise a handlebar and saddle would be a not so smart method to choose a frame size/bike.
Lou
sms
Dec 9, 2019, 10:48:53 AM12/9/19
to
On 12/8/2019 5:04 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 19:17:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
<snip>
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 19:17:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> I'm not. I blame Obama. ;-)
>
> Gad! That bloke must have been riding around on a broom to accomplish
> all he was blamed for. No other way he could have been in California
> one night and Ohio the next.
> --
> cheers,
>
> John B.
causing us to not be as strong and lithe today as we were 18 years ago.
Or it could be the Russians.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 9, 2019, 11:54:56 AM12/9/19
to
On 12/9/2019 7:27 AM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> John you started to ridicule todays bike fitting by stating that the stand over height method and raising/lowering the saddle and handlebar still works for you. Bike fitting today and the past is all about getting your butt, feet and hands on the right position relative to each other while riding your bike depending on:
> - preference,
> - riding style,
> - your physical condition/ability,
> - body proportions.
> Today there is a lot more choices in handlebar drop/reach, frame geometries and saddles then there were in the past. They all determine were your butt, hands and feet end up giving a particular frame. A simple test if your nutts don't hit the top tube and the lower/raise a handlebar and saddle would be a not so smart method to choose a frame size/bike.
I'd love to hear from Andrew and Chalo, about what their shops do to
>
> John you started to ridicule todays bike fitting by stating that the stand over height method and raising/lowering the saddle and handlebar still works for you. Bike fitting today and the past is all about getting your butt, feet and hands on the right position relative to each other while riding your bike depending on:
> - preference,
> - riding style,
> - your physical condition/ability,
> - body proportions.
> Today there is a lot more choices in handlebar drop/reach, frame geometries and saddles then there were in the past. They all determine were your butt, hands and feet end up giving a particular frame. A simple test if your nutts don't hit the top tube and the lower/raise a handlebar and saddle would be a not so smart method to choose a frame size/bike.
choose frame sizes and fit a new bike to a rider.
--
- Frank Krygowski
jbeattie
Dec 9, 2019, 11:59:25 AM12/9/19
to
-- Jay Beattie.
Tom Kunich
Dec 9, 2019, 12:16:37 PM12/9/19
to
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 5:01:59 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:40:40 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:13:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > >
> > > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
> > >
> > > Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
> > >
> > > -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > Mythology Jay. Cycling is rife with it and you know that.
>
> A fellow I know went to an LBS where the fitter had "a bigger rep than the guy who hands you your coffee at the machine". He thought *he* was being fitted but after a lot of shoving and pushing, the clerk said, outraged, "You don't fit any of our bikes!"
>
> *****
>
> The customer complained that his new suit didn't fit. 'The sleeves are too short,' he said to the tailor.
>
> 'Yes sir,' said the tailor, 'but if you hold your arm just so, at an angle as if you're drinking tea with your auntie, it will show just the right amount of cuff.'
>
> The customer tried it. The tailor was right! 'But what about the other sleeve? It is definitely too short.'
>
> 'Just lower your shoulder, sir. Yes, yes, a little more. Put your foot out so you can lower your shoulder a little more still. Bend your knee. Yes, that's it. See how beautifully your suitcoat now fits?'
>
> The customer had to admit the tailor was right. 'Wow. But now the leg of the pants is all twisted around.'
>
> 'That's easily fixed,' said the tailor. 'Just point your other toe westward, sir, and look over your shoulder to where I am holding up the hand mirror. See? Doesn't that fit beautifully?'
>
> 'Yes,' the customer said doubtfully, 'but-'
>
> 'Now would sir like to wear his brilliant new suit or shall we wrap it?'
>
> The customer was too intimidated to argue. He walked out into the street in his new suit, his arm crooked as if he were drinking tea, his other shoulder well down over a bent knee with his foot out to the side, his other foot pointing westwards, his head twisted back between hunched shoulders as if complaining to God about a cruel fate.
>
> Behind him he heard a boy say to his father. 'Oh, Daddy, look at the poor twisted cripple.'
>
> 'Hush,' the father said. 'Be grateful the poor man found such a brilliant tailor.'
>
> From http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/KISS%20123%20by%20Andre%20Jute.htm
>
> ****
>
> Andre Jute
> Euphonics
I have bikes that fit that are from 58 to 62 cm. As a sports rider the main thing to obtain is control. I can descend FASTER on the round tube, high sitting Basso at 62 cm than I can with the aerodynamic Colnago.
So I just say that I'm not a Lance Armstrong - I'm much closer to a Neal Armstrong. And leave it at that.
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:40:40 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:13:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> > > >
> > > > In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
> > > >
> > > > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> > > >
> > >
> > > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
> > >
> > > Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
> > >
> > > -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > Mythology Jay. Cycling is rife with it and you know that.
>
> A fellow I know went to an LBS where the fitter had "a bigger rep than the guy who hands you your coffee at the machine". He thought *he* was being fitted but after a lot of shoving and pushing, the clerk said, outraged, "You don't fit any of our bikes!"
>
> *****
>
> The customer complained that his new suit didn't fit. 'The sleeves are too short,' he said to the tailor.
>
> 'Yes sir,' said the tailor, 'but if you hold your arm just so, at an angle as if you're drinking tea with your auntie, it will show just the right amount of cuff.'
>
> The customer tried it. The tailor was right! 'But what about the other sleeve? It is definitely too short.'
>
> 'Just lower your shoulder, sir. Yes, yes, a little more. Put your foot out so you can lower your shoulder a little more still. Bend your knee. Yes, that's it. See how beautifully your suitcoat now fits?'
>
> The customer had to admit the tailor was right. 'Wow. But now the leg of the pants is all twisted around.'
>
> 'That's easily fixed,' said the tailor. 'Just point your other toe westward, sir, and look over your shoulder to where I am holding up the hand mirror. See? Doesn't that fit beautifully?'
>
> 'Yes,' the customer said doubtfully, 'but-'
>
> 'Now would sir like to wear his brilliant new suit or shall we wrap it?'
>
> The customer was too intimidated to argue. He walked out into the street in his new suit, his arm crooked as if he were drinking tea, his other shoulder well down over a bent knee with his foot out to the side, his other foot pointing westwards, his head twisted back between hunched shoulders as if complaining to God about a cruel fate.
>
> Behind him he heard a boy say to his father. 'Oh, Daddy, look at the poor twisted cripple.'
>
> 'Hush,' the father said. 'Be grateful the poor man found such a brilliant tailor.'
>
> From http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/KISS%20123%20by%20Andre%20Jute.htm
>
> ****
>
> Andre Jute
> Euphonics
I have bikes that fit that are from 58 to 62 cm. As a sports rider the main thing to obtain is control. I can descend FASTER on the round tube, high sitting Basso at 62 cm than I can with the aerodynamic Colnago.
So I just say that I'm not a Lance Armstrong - I'm much closer to a Neal Armstrong. And leave it at that.
jbeattie
Dec 9, 2019, 12:21:37 PM12/9/19
to
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
>
> If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.
Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor. Why would you even need a custom fit? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b/1a/438b1acf9d354dc18718849987ece1ca.jpg
My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.
-- Jay Beattie.
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> > >
> > > In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
> >
> > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
>
> 1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?
> > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> > >
> > > In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
> >
> > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
>
>
> > My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
>
> I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
> > My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
>
> > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
> say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.
>
> If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.
>
> > Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,
>
> The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".
> > Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,
>
>
> >what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
>
> I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.
> >what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
>
Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor. Why would you even need a custom fit? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b/1a/438b1acf9d354dc18718849987ece1ca.jpg
My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.
-- Jay Beattie.
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 9, 2019, 12:21:45 PM12/9/19
to
various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
sustainable shoes. For special occasions, conventional dress shoes or
western wear boots. The construction boots are useful because they
work in many environments (rain, mud, dirt, sand, etc) and different
applications (ride, walk, climb, slog, trudge, etc) where several
different types of shoes might otherwise be required.
Among the local electronic and non-electronic types, I'm probably the
only one who wears steel toe work boots on a regular basis. I'll
spare you my rationalizations as to why I prefer such boots for
everyday wear. Of course, I have other shoes available, but prefer
the construction boots:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html>
After I took the photo, I found another 10 pairs.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 9, 2019, 12:32:46 PM12/9/19
to
custom bike should accommodate one's quirks.
Related: Aesthetically, I'm bothered by the look of modern forks. Carbon
fiber ones look chunky and clunky. But even steel forks often don't look
graceful to me. The classic look seems prettiest: a tapered fork blade
that starts in line with the steering axis then bends forward to meet
the front axle. Even the straight steel fork blades that angle forward
from the fork crown look awkward to me.
There was a spare logic to the design of classic bicycle tubes. I know
CF and disc brakes have changed the design requirements, but I think
some custom makers deviate from the former norm just to be "modern."
And before people attack me even more, this preference isn't related to
yearning for a past era. I wouldn't have liked a curly stay Hetchins
either.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Radey Shouman
Dec 9, 2019, 1:35:50 PM12/9/19
to
the road, once, but haven't done that again
Also, the shorter one is, the more likely toe overlap, given the usual
size wheels.
>
>> If I start out up a hill than yes, perhaps for the first revolution
>> or so of the crank I will be traveling slowly enough to have too turn
>> the wheel back and forth, far enough to hit my toe, to keep balanced
>> but other than that I have never had a problem.
>>
>> But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
>> electronic guys wear hulking great boots? -- cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>>
>
AMuzi
Dec 9, 2019, 3:52:03 PM12/9/19
to
With the proliferation of models, sizes and colors (just
withing Gunnar and there are dozens of good frame builders
out there) custom is more rare than it once was.
That said, the #1 request among custom frames is level top
tube. A distant second is some ditzy to weird braze on.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 9, 2019, 4:46:44 PM12/9/19
to
On 12/9/2019 12:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:13:56 +0700, John B.
> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>> But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
>> electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
>
> Generally no. The local electronic types favor sandals, bare feet,
> various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
> sustainable shoes.
Like these?
> On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:13:56 +0700, John B.
> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>> But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
>> electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
>
> Generally no. The local electronic types favor sandals, bare feet,
> various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
> sustainable shoes.
https://safr.kingfeatures.com/idn/cnfeed/zone/js/content.php?file=aHR0cDovL3NhZnIua2luZ2ZlYXR1cmVzLmNvbS9aaXRzLzIwMDQvMDEvWml0c19udGIuMjAwNDAxMDRfOTAwLmdpZg==
--
- Frank Krygowski
James
Dec 9, 2019, 5:21:07 PM12/9/19
to
Using a frame pump isn't a reason for me, but perhaps for a small group.
The only practical reason I can think for a sloping top tube is
increased stand over clearance, but that has never been a problem for
me. A non-practical reason might be to boast a slightly lesser frame
weight, or stiffness increase perhaps, but these are advertising claims.
--
JS
John B.
Dec 9, 2019, 6:25:30 PM12/9/19
to
On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:21:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:13:56 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
>>electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
>
>Generally no. The local electronic types favor sandals, bare feet,
>various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
>sustainable shoes. For special occasions, conventional dress shoes or
>western wear boots. The construction boots are useful because they
>work in many environments (rain, mud, dirt, sand, etc) and different
>applications (ride, walk, climb, slog, trudge, etc) where several
>different types of shoes might otherwise be required.
>
>Among the local electronic and non-electronic types, I'm probably the
>only one who wears steel toe work boots on a regular basis. I'll
>spare you my rationalizations as to why I prefer such boots for
>everyday wear. Of course, I have other shoes available, but prefer
>the construction boots:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html>
>After I took the photo, I found another 10 pairs.
My goodness, all those shoes! You must be a wealthy man.
But I count 15 pairs and one lonely sandal.
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:13:56 +0700, John B.
><jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
>>electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
>
>Generally no. The local electronic types favor sandals, bare feet,
>various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
>sustainable shoes. For special occasions, conventional dress shoes or
>western wear boots. The construction boots are useful because they
>work in many environments (rain, mud, dirt, sand, etc) and different
>applications (ride, walk, climb, slog, trudge, etc) where several
>different types of shoes might otherwise be required.
>
>Among the local electronic and non-electronic types, I'm probably the
>only one who wears steel toe work boots on a regular basis. I'll
>spare you my rationalizations as to why I prefer such boots for
>everyday wear. Of course, I have other shoes available, but prefer
>the construction boots:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html>
>After I took the photo, I found another 10 pairs.
But I count 15 pairs and one lonely sandal.
--
cheers,
John B.
sms
Dec 9, 2019, 6:31:41 PM12/9/19
to
On 12/8/2019 5:48 PM, James wrote:
<snip>
> I also dislike the sloping top tube "compact" design, for the simple
> reasons that;
>
> a) longer frame tubes would probably weigh less than a long seat post,
> and a longer seat post likely stresses the frame more.
>
> b) the sloping top tube is very difficult to sit on while you're stopped
> somewhere to admire the view and eat a banana.
>
> c) the area in the triangle is reduced which restricts that available to
> carry water bottles or frame bags and stuff, if you so desire.
It's not just the sloping top-tube it's the trend to smaller frames but
with longer seat posts and longer head tubes needed to compensate. I
understand the appeal of compact frames from the point of view of
manufacturers and shops─they save money for the manufacturer, but they
are bad for the end user. Fortunately, you can still buy bicycles with
horizontal top tubes, it's just more difficult. Bikesdirect still has some.
<snip>
> I also dislike the sloping top tube "compact" design, for the simple
> reasons that;
>
> a) longer frame tubes would probably weigh less than a long seat post,
> and a longer seat post likely stresses the frame more.
>
> b) the sloping top tube is very difficult to sit on while you're stopped
> somewhere to admire the view and eat a banana.
>
> c) the area in the triangle is reduced which restricts that available to
> carry water bottles or frame bags and stuff, if you so desire.
with longer seat posts and longer head tubes needed to compensate. I
understand the appeal of compact frames from the point of view of
manufacturers and shops─they save money for the manufacturer, but they
are bad for the end user. Fortunately, you can still buy bicycles with
horizontal top tubes, it's just more difficult. Bikesdirect still has some.
jbeattie
Dec 9, 2019, 8:36:21 PM12/9/19
to
It's odd. I rode a 63cm SuperSix, and with the new semi-compact frame, I would fall between the 60cm and the 62cm based on TT /front-center and stack height. Follow the numbers for the the two 60cm frames -- the new frame is more relaxed by a fraction of a degree at the ST and HT and just bigger -- except in the seat tube. More trail. I assume the new bike has a more planted feel. I liked the feel of the old bike and didn't think it needed any planting.
-- Jay Beattie.
John B.
Dec 9, 2019, 8:41:49 PM12/9/19
to
"fitting" a bike as I described it accomplishes everything that your
multi hundred dollar "fittings" do. I assume that you did notice my
last caveat, "then ride the bike and make any more changes".
But perhaps you are correct and modern day man needs to have his bike
"fitted".
It apparently is a recent necessity as I don't believe that Eddy
Marckx ever had a bike fitting, and he won 11 Grand Tours and more
than 500 bike races.
For that matter Frank (another old guy) has never mentioned a bike
fitting and he has ridden across the U.S. and in innumerable foreign
places, or Jay the intrepid (semi old) who rides to work come rain or
come shine, who has never mentioned a fitting, or Terrible Tom (yet
another oldie) who spends his days climbing mountains.
Strange isn't it that none of these old geezers has ever mentioned
whacking out nearly 300 dollars to have their arse fitted to a
bicycle and yet they ride/have ridden a substantial number of
miles/kilometers.
--
cheers,
John B.
James
Dec 9, 2019, 9:54:27 PM12/9/19
to
fewer frame sizes. Saddle too low? Install a 400mm seat post. But
everyone wants to slam their Ahead stem on the headset, where as in days
gone by it was normal to raise or lower the quill.
--
JS
Frank Krygowski
Dec 9, 2019, 10:25:10 PM12/9/19
to
people, it's a matter of aesthetics.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
Dec 9, 2019, 10:36:12 PM12/9/19
to
I suspect that Eddy was supplied with any frame, component or adjustment
that might make him a tiny bit faster or more comfortable. I remember
reading that he had serious troubles with saddle sores. (And BTW, I
really don't think I belong in the same category of either Eddy or Jay.)
Over the decades, I did make adjustments to my bike fit. My handlebars
rose by at least an inch, and on one bike they were brought closer to me
via a shorter stem. It's easy to explain that by lesser flexibility,
although I'm still quite flexible. (I can still mount our tandem by
kicking my leg forward over the handlebars plus handlebar bag.)
My saddle height actually went up a bit over the decades. I don't really
know why.
But pay for bike fit? No, I've never done that.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Chalo
Dec 9, 2019, 10:37:39 PM12/9/19
to
Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> I'd love to hear from Andrew and Chalo, about what their shops do to
> choose frame sizes and fit a new bike to a rider.
I usually fit a buyer to whichever frame size is the tallest that makes sense to stand over (for the application), then work out their preferences with stem and handlebar variations. Nine times out of ten, that's the best approach.
>
> I'd love to hear from Andrew and Chalo, about what their shops do to
> choose frame sizes and fit a new bike to a rider.
I can't think of a time when a customer ever asked for a lower position than their bike allowed.
Chalo
Dec 9, 2019, 10:49:56 PM12/9/19
to
Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> I don't disagree with your reasons. But I still bet that for most
> people, it's a matter of aesthetics.
I think the easy higher bar height available for most folks when they use a sloping top tube frame is a benefit. Handlebar stems don't vary as much as they used to.
>
> I don't disagree with your reasons. But I still bet that for most
> people, it's a matter of aesthetics.
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 9, 2019, 11:10:39 PM12/9/19
to
On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 06:25:24 +0700, John B.
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>Of course, I have other shoes available, but prefer
>>the construction boots:
>><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html>
>>After I took the photo, I found another 10 pairs.
>My goodness, all those shoes! You must be a wealthy man.
>But I count 15 pairs and one lonely sandal.
I just counted 27 pairs in the photo. That includes a pair of roller
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>Of course, I have other shoes available, but prefer
>>the construction boots:
>><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html>
>>After I took the photo, I found another 10 pairs.
>My goodness, all those shoes! You must be a wealthy man.
>But I count 15 pairs and one lonely sandal.
skates (2nd row, first pair), sandals (2nd row, 2nd pair), Wellingtons
(1st row, 2nd pair), and a really ancient pair of bicycle "touring"
shoes with flat soles (2nd row, 2nd from last on the right).
Most of shoes were acquired over the last 45 years or so. On the
average, I would guess one pair per year, which is easily affordable.
However, I have the incurable habit of buying new shoes just before
the old shoes self destruct. I don't have the good sense to simply
recycle the old shoes, since they are still wearable and can
theoretically be repaired. So, I save them, resulting in an obvious
surplus of old shoes. I recently decided that it was time to purge my
collection, and donated those that were in tolerable condition and
dispatching to the local dump all but 10 of the best pairs. Since
then, I have added one pair of construction boots, awaiting the
inevitable demise of my current daily carry boots.
<https://www.sears.com/wolverine-men-s-6inch-steel-toe-work-boot-w08308/p-067VA11220601P>
I don't particularly like this style, but Wolverine discontinued the
style I prefer.
<https://www.shopyourway.com/wolverine-mens-cirrus-alloy-toe-work-hiker-boot-brown/315548>
Imelda Marcos's shoe collection, originally about 3,000 pairs:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=imelda+marcos+shoes&tbm=isch>
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 9, 2019, 11:23:30 PM12/9/19
to
eco-fad. For example, "grounding" and "earthing" have been around for
a while:
<https://www.earthrunners.com/pages/earthing-shoes>
Generous surface area connecting your foot and the
grounded conductive element allows for ample electron
transfer.
and
Insulated modern rubber shoes interrupt our body's ability
to connect with earth in the way our ancient ancestors lived.
Ummm... right. Perhaps you should wrap your bicycle tires in aluminum
foil to be sure that you're getting the necessary grounding?
John B.
Dec 9, 2019, 11:36:48 PM12/9/19
to
week, did the sprints and intervals on the off days and raced on
Sunday. Probably enough miles for anyone to develop saddle sores :-)
>Over the decades, I did make adjustments to my bike fit. My handlebars
>rose by at least an inch, and on one bike they were brought closer to me
>via a shorter stem. It's easy to explain that by lesser flexibility,
>although I'm still quite flexible. (I can still mount our tandem by
>kicking my leg forward over the handlebars plus handlebar bag.)
>
>My saddle height actually went up a bit over the decades. I don't really
>know why.
>
>But pay for bike fit? No, I've never done that.
doing as opposed to not knowing. Which, I suggest, is where the
"fitting" comes into play. Cholo mentions sizing a bike for his
customers but have you ever asked for any advise in sizing a bike? In
the last 20 years?
But I still think that the old criteria - knee over the center of the
pedal, leg straight with the heel on the pedal and the distance from
the nose of the seat to the handle bars approximately as long as your
forearm and bars at a level that in the drops the bars block vision
of the front axle will probably get the majority into a comfortable
position that they can perhaps modify a bit as they become more used
to the bike.
Which solves all problems except for the saddle :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 9, 2019, 11:41:39 PM12/9/19
to
sight :-(
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 9, 2019, 11:53:49 PM12/9/19
to
On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 20:23:21 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:46:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 12/9/2019 12:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:13:56 +0700, John B.
>>> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
>>>> electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
>>>
>>> Generally no. The local electronic types favor sandals, bare feet,
>>> various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
>>> sustainable shoes.
>
>>Like these?
>>https://safr.kingfeatures.com/idn/cnfeed/zone/js/content.php?file=aHR0cDovL3NhZnIua2luZ2ZlYXR1cmVzLmNvbS9aaXRzLzIwMDQvMDEvWml0c19udGIuMjAwNDAxMDRfOTAwLmdpZg==
>
>Yep. Among my friends are a few that subscribe to nearly every
>eco-fad. For example, "grounding" and "earthing" have been around for
>a while:
><https://www.earthrunners.com/pages/earthing-shoes>
> Generous surface area connecting your foot and the
> grounded conductive element allows for ample electron
> transfer.
That's just silly. Just take the shoes off and walk. that will give
you all the grounding possible.
Of course, it takes a bit of time to attain the ability to walk over
any surface without shoes but after all, anything worth doing is worth
doing well. :-)
>and
> Insulated modern rubber shoes interrupt our body's ability
> to connect with earth in the way our ancient ancestors lived.
>Ummm... right. Perhaps you should wrap your bicycle tires in aluminum
>foil to be sure that you're getting the necessary grounding?
Grounding spikes (or nails) will prove a better solution.
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/metal-ground-spikes.html
A spike or nail inserted into the tire so that the point reaches the
metal rim and the head contacts the road will provide a far better and
longer lasting "ground" than any flimsy aluminum foil :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:46:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 12/9/2019 12:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:13:56 +0700, John B.
>>> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
>>>> electronic guys wear hulking great boots?
>>>
>>> Generally no. The local electronic types favor sandals, bare feet,
>>> various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
>>> sustainable shoes.
>
>>Like these?
>>https://safr.kingfeatures.com/idn/cnfeed/zone/js/content.php?file=aHR0cDovL3NhZnIua2luZ2ZlYXR1cmVzLmNvbS9aaXRzLzIwMDQvMDEvWml0c19udGIuMjAwNDAxMDRfOTAwLmdpZg==
>
>Yep. Among my friends are a few that subscribe to nearly every
>eco-fad. For example, "grounding" and "earthing" have been around for
>a while:
><https://www.earthrunners.com/pages/earthing-shoes>
> Generous surface area connecting your foot and the
> grounded conductive element allows for ample electron
> transfer.
you all the grounding possible.
Of course, it takes a bit of time to attain the ability to walk over
any surface without shoes but after all, anything worth doing is worth
doing well. :-)
>and
> Insulated modern rubber shoes interrupt our body's ability
> to connect with earth in the way our ancient ancestors lived.
>Ummm... right. Perhaps you should wrap your bicycle tires in aluminum
>foil to be sure that you're getting the necessary grounding?
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/metal-ground-spikes.html
A spike or nail inserted into the tire so that the point reaches the
metal rim and the head contacts the road will provide a far better and
longer lasting "ground" than any flimsy aluminum foil :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Dec 10, 2019, 12:05:12 AM12/10/19
to
On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 20:10:30 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On a bit more serious vein, why metal toe shoes? They always seemed
heavier than plain toes and I wore common old military "brogans" (work
shoes} and Redwing boots for probably 30 years and never bumped a
toe.
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
heavier than plain toes and I wore common old military "brogans" (work
shoes} and Redwing boots for probably 30 years and never bumped a
toe.
--
cheers,
John B.
lou.h...@gmail.com
Dec 10, 2019, 3:01:21 AM12/10/19
to
Lou
John B.
Dec 10, 2019, 4:13:46 AM12/10/19
to
Read more at
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/bike-fit/bike-fit-recommended-uk-locations-33069#XgqUzJT1L1CyRivE.99
(note: Pounds Sterling 250 is abut US$ 330)
Dynamic Premium Fit - $400
https://www.trekbicyclesuperstore.com/about/bike-fitting-pg731.htm
Mobile Bike Fit: $395.00
https://www.bcbikefit.com/pricing/
--
cheers,
John B.
Sir Ridesalot
Dec 10, 2019, 6:20:41 AM12/10/19
to
Cheers
jbeattie
Dec 10, 2019, 10:21:27 AM12/10/19
to
-- Jay Beattie.
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 10, 2019, 10:42:20 AM12/10/19
to
On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 11:53:44 +0700, John B.
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>Yep. Among my friends are a few that subscribe to nearly every
>>eco-fad. For example, "grounding" and "earthing" have been around for
>>a while:
>><https://www.earthrunners.com/pages/earthing-shoes>
>> Generous surface area connecting your foot and the
>> grounded conductive element allows for ample electron
>> transfer.
>
>That's just silly. Just take the shoes off and walk. that will give
>you all the grounding possible.
Not enough ground conductivity. These work better:
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>>Yep. Among my friends are a few that subscribe to nearly every
>>eco-fad. For example, "grounding" and "earthing" have been around for
>>a while:
>><https://www.earthrunners.com/pages/earthing-shoes>
>> Generous surface area connecting your foot and the
>> grounded conductive element allows for ample electron
>> transfer.
>
>That's just silly. Just take the shoes off and walk. that will give
>you all the grounding possible.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lawn+aerator+shoes&tbm=isch>
but have their limitations. For example, they don't work well with
any of my bicycle pedals and tend to shred panniers. However, they do
protect my feet.
>Of course, it takes a bit of time to attain the ability to walk over
>any surface without shoes but after all, anything worth doing is worth
>doing well. :-)
over-doing". Anyway, I'm working on the problem starting with
learning how to walk on water.
>>and
>> Insulated modern rubber shoes interrupt our body's ability
>> to connect with earth in the way our ancient ancestors lived.
>>Ummm... right. Perhaps you should wrap your bicycle tires in aluminum
>>foil to be sure that you're getting the necessary grounding?
>Grounding spikes (or nails) will prove a better solution.
>https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/metal-ground-spikes.html
> A spike or nail inserted into the tire so that the point reaches the
>metal rim and the head contacts the road will provide a far better and
>longer lasting "ground" than any flimsy aluminum foil :-)
foil gloves, and an aluminum foil insert for bicycle helmets to
protect against cell phone radiation. Once you are firmly earthed or
grounded, you need not worry about the loss of electron flow or
exposure to RF radiation.
I suspect modifying the existing bicycle wheel will not provide the
necessary grounding. Perhaps remove the rim and tire and ride on
reinforced spokes drilled directly into the hub. Or, used grounded
shoes in this manner:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=bicycle+wheel+shoes>
Hmmm... perhaps that might be a good use for my old construction
boots?
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 10, 2019, 11:03:29 AM12/10/19
to
On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:05:07 +0700, John B.
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>On a bit more serious vein, why metal toe shoes? They always seemed
>heavier than plain toes
Well, if you must be serious, anything that meets ASTM F2413-18 will
<jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>On a bit more serious vein, why metal toe shoes? They always seemed
>heavier than plain toes
suffice. Most are the heavier steel toe variety, but they can be
found in aluminum alloy, composites, and possibly plastics to reduce
weight. After wearing these for many years, I don't even notice the
added weight. However, if I switch back and forth between the much
lighter athletic or conventional street shoes, the added weight is
noticeable for a few minutes.
>and I wore common old military "brogans" (work
>shoes} and Redwing boots for probably 30 years and never bumped a
>toe.
to bump into things. However, I can't say the same about having
things dropped on my toes. My initial inspiration was after a work
site accident, the insurance company and safety committee demanded
that everyone wear safety boots. That included management, which had
the choice of steel galoshes or proper work boots. Most bought proper
work boots and left them on-site. I decided that it was unlikely that
anything would land on my toes, but eventually demonstrated that steel
toe boots are useful by having several minor accidents. They were
minor because of the steel toes. For various reasons, I elected to
continue wearing such construction boots well after the initial
requirement was long gone. Other than looking rather out of place at
formal occasions, I haven't experienced any difficulties (except that
they don't work well on my bicycle pedals and don't fit into my toe
clips).
Redwings are probably the best and most expensive work boots. They
last longer and are more heavily reinforced than most. The result is
some added weight. That's the price one pays for decent protection.
sms
Dec 10, 2019, 11:46:11 AM12/10/19
to
On 12/10/2019 7:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 11:53:44 +0700, John B.
> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>> Yep. Among my friends are a few that subscribe to nearly every
>>> eco-fad. For example, "grounding" and "earthing" have been around for
>>> a while:
>>> <https://www.earthrunners.com/pages/earthing-shoes>
>>> Generous surface area connecting your foot and the
>>> grounded conductive element allows for ample electron
>>> transfer.
>>
>> That's just silly. Just take the shoes off and walk. that will give
>> you all the grounding possible.
>
> Not enough ground conductivity. These work better:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=lawn+aerator+shoes&tbm=isch>
> but have their limitations. For example, they don't work well with
> any of my bicycle pedals and tend to shred panniers. However, they do
> protect my feet.
All you need is these:
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 11:53:44 +0700, John B.
> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>>> Yep. Among my friends are a few that subscribe to nearly every
>>> eco-fad. For example, "grounding" and "earthing" have been around for
>>> a while:
>>> <https://www.earthrunners.com/pages/earthing-shoes>
>>> Generous surface area connecting your foot and the
>>> grounded conductive element allows for ample electron
>>> transfer.
>>
>> That's just silly. Just take the shoes off and walk. that will give
>> you all the grounding possible.
>
> Not enough ground conductivity. These work better:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=lawn+aerator+shoes&tbm=isch>
> but have their limitations. For example, they don't work well with
> any of my bicycle pedals and tend to shred panniers. However, they do
> protect my feet.
<https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-936/Grounders-Static-Control-Equipment/Cup-Style-Heel-Grounder-Standard?pricode=WB0066>.
Specifically designed for grounding, and complete with leg strap.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 10, 2019, 12:06:15 PM12/10/19
to
But we're talking about custom bikes here. I'm betting that these days,
the demographic most likely to buy a custom-made bike is a fairly
prosperous middle-aged or older gent who began riding a long, long time
ago. And I'm betting that he (like me) still regards the dream bike of
his youth as the most beautiful.
I don't think this is unusual at all. I suspect that one guy I know (now
in his 50s) still thinks Queen is the greatest music group of all time.
If you go to car shows, you'll see guys in their 80s fawning over cars
from the 1950s.
Heck, one day I took an retired old millwright (from a steel mill) to a
museum documenting our local steel industry. Looking in one display of
tools, he excitedly said "I used a sledge hammer just like that one!!"
--
- Frank Krygowski
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 10, 2019, 12:10:39 PM12/10/19
to
On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 08:46:05 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
Good idea, but I see two problems:
1. The leg strap is connected to the leg, not the foot. It's the
food that needs an adequate supply of electrons. Perhaps conductive
socks would help?
2. The carbon impregnated grounding straps are fairly high
resistance. While adequate for dissipating high voltage static
electricity, the high resistance strap blocks the flow of too many
electrons. Even if the shoes were made from conductive rubber, they
would still be too high resistance.
Hmmm... are bike paths designed to conduct electricity so as to insure
the adequate flow of electrons and provide proper grounding or
earthing? I don't recall seeing that in the specs.
wrote:
1. The leg strap is connected to the leg, not the foot. It's the
food that needs an adequate supply of electrons. Perhaps conductive
socks would help?
2. The carbon impregnated grounding straps are fairly high
resistance. While adequate for dissipating high voltage static
electricity, the high resistance strap blocks the flow of too many
electrons. Even if the shoes were made from conductive rubber, they
would still be too high resistance.
Hmmm... are bike paths designed to conduct electricity so as to insure
the adequate flow of electrons and provide proper grounding or
earthing? I don't recall seeing that in the specs.
Frank Krygowski
Dec 10, 2019, 12:14:56 PM12/10/19
to
On 12/10/2019 11:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:05:07 +0700, John B.
> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>> On a bit more serious vein, why metal toe shoes? They always seemed
>> heavier than plain toes
>
> Well, if you must be serious, anything that meets ASTM F2413-18 will
> suffice. Most are the heavier steel toe variety, but they can be
> found in aluminum alloy, composites, and possibly plastics to reduce
> weight. After wearing these for many years, I don't even notice the
> added weight. However, if I switch back and forth between the much
> lighter athletic or conventional street shoes, the added weight is
> noticeable for a few minutes.
>
>> and I wore common old military "brogans" (work
>> shoes} and Redwing boots for probably 30 years and never bumped a
>> toe.
>
> Same here. Except when kicking something in frustration, I tend not
> to bump into things. However, I can't say the same about having
> things dropped on my toes.
When I first started work as a plant engineer, I was pleased to learn
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:05:07 +0700, John B.
> <jbsl...@fictitious.site> wrote:
>
>> On a bit more serious vein, why metal toe shoes? They always seemed
>> heavier than plain toes
>
> Well, if you must be serious, anything that meets ASTM F2413-18 will
> suffice. Most are the heavier steel toe variety, but they can be
> found in aluminum alloy, composites, and possibly plastics to reduce
> weight. After wearing these for many years, I don't even notice the
> added weight. However, if I switch back and forth between the much
> lighter athletic or conventional street shoes, the added weight is
> noticeable for a few minutes.
>
>> and I wore common old military "brogans" (work
>> shoes} and Redwing boots for probably 30 years and never bumped a
>> toe.
>
> Same here. Except when kicking something in frustration, I tend not
> to bump into things. However, I can't say the same about having
> things dropped on my toes.
that the company was giving me two pairs of dress shoes with steel toes.
Those are now long, long gone, and I haven't had steel toe shoes since.
But when I began hanging around machine shops, I soon learned that when
something is dropped, the proper reflex is not to break its fall with
your foot, as one might do when drying dishes. The proper reflex is to
get your feet out of the way and let the object hit the floor.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
Dec 10, 2019, 12:29:54 PM12/10/19
to
Six years ago, my wife and a friend and I did a bike tour from the Ohio
River to Lake Erie. One of those days we rode through thunderstorms to
our kid's house to stay overnight before riding on.
We were in the basement level screened-in porch when my wife touched the
old-style metal protective cover on an outlet and said "I just got
shocked!" I touched it and felt nothing. Someone else touched another
metal covered outlet and felt nothing; but my wife insisted she felt a
shock.
Then I noticed she was the only one with bare feet. Someone else slipped
off their sandals and touched an outlet, and yelled "YOW!"
I later measured anywhere from 40 Volts to 80 Volts between the metal
covers and the concrete floor, depending on how close the outlet was to
the wet ground outside. And diagnosing the problem was difficult - why
would a breaker not trip? It turned out to be a double fault: One outlet
in that circuit had a loose hot wire that was touching the box; and
upstream, a difficult-to-see junction box had a ground wire that had
come loose.
I'm happy to stay ungrounded, thank you.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
Dec 10, 2019, 12:32:52 PM12/10/19
to
necessary. If it really works, it must be for a small subset of bikes.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Duane
Dec 10, 2019, 12:36:16 PM12/10/19
to
free fit within 6 months. After that $50 per fit that they usually
don't charge for.
You can get a fit for a couple hundred bucks by specialists. I know
only a couple of people that have done that and it was mostly because
they needed to tweak something. At our age riding 1-200km on a bike
makes the small things not that small. I imagine that if you ride less
or are younger, the fit is less important.
Andre Jute
Dec 10, 2019, 12:39:10 PM12/10/19
to
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 5:21:37 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > >
> > > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
> >
> > 1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?
> >
> > > My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
> >
> > I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
> > > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
> > say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.
> >
> > If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.
> >
> > > Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,
> >
> > The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".
> >
> > >what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
> >
> > I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.
>
> Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor.
You're misinformed, Jay. My bike didn't have a motor when I bought it, nor for several years afterwards. As for "Byzantine", the technical description of the frame is apparently "cross frame priest's bicycle", since it was designed when priests would for another forty years or so wear long coats with split skirts. When you calm down, compose your mind and follow the tubes, and you'll see -- or you can have an engineer explain to you -- why the frame is a stiffer than a big Rolls-Royce motorcar.
>Why would you even need a custom fit?
I don't know. I never had a custom fit. I never even contemplated having some bike shop kid try to force me into the gorilla crouching in too small a cage posture of the people I see on road bikes. You, Jay Beattie, are the only one who thinks I had a custom fit.
For the record, I know how I like to sit on my bicycle, and I'm not interested in being fitted to a bicycle, I expect the bicycle to be fitted to me, exactly like my tailor fits my clothes to me. I'm amazed that Jay would be so insensitive as to believe I would ever consent to have some clerk bully me into sitting on a bike as he expects me to sit.
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b/1a/438b1acf9d354dc18718849987ece1ca.jpg
Yes. What about it? If you're so outraged about my bicycle (which fits me to within 1mm, and is fast with secure roadholding and handling, and comfortable besides) send me half a dozen of yours and I'll dispose of them thoughtfully. As I said yesterday, "I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages [of my bicycle] and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike." You didn't need to prove it again.
> My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.
Quite. Whatever wiggles your wick. But trying to make me conform to your prejudices starts a loser and soon gets painful, and after all that is absolutely guaranteed to have not the slightest effect.
> -- Jay Beattie.
I love this:
> My wife had a comfort bike like that
Jay intends me to be embarrassed about it. Yeah, that's going to work a treat on someone of my proven unimpressionability. If you still dream of being Atticus Finch, you should learn to be less transparent, Jay.
> My wife had a comfort bike like that
That sentence is however, much more interestingly, an admission that what I've always said is true: that the roadie crowd believes that what doesn't hurt isn't real cycling. It's just one more reason why the general public in the non-cycling nations look at the cyclists they do have, and reject them and all their crude efforts at control freakery on automobilists out of hand.
Andre Jute
I should get a Nobel Prize for my patience
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> > > >
> > > > In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.
> > > >
> > > > > Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?
> > > >
> > >
> > > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
> >
> > 1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?
> >
> > > My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.
> >
> > I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
> > > What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
> > say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.
> >
> > If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.
> >
> > > Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,
> >
> > The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".
> >
> > >what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?
> >
> > I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.
>
> Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor.
You're misinformed, Jay. My bike didn't have a motor when I bought it, nor for several years afterwards. As for "Byzantine", the technical description of the frame is apparently "cross frame priest's bicycle", since it was designed when priests would for another forty years or so wear long coats with split skirts. When you calm down, compose your mind and follow the tubes, and you'll see -- or you can have an engineer explain to you -- why the frame is a stiffer than a big Rolls-Royce motorcar.
>Why would you even need a custom fit?
I don't know. I never had a custom fit. I never even contemplated having some bike shop kid try to force me into the gorilla crouching in too small a cage posture of the people I see on road bikes. You, Jay Beattie, are the only one who thinks I had a custom fit.
For the record, I know how I like to sit on my bicycle, and I'm not interested in being fitted to a bicycle, I expect the bicycle to be fitted to me, exactly like my tailor fits my clothes to me. I'm amazed that Jay would be so insensitive as to believe I would ever consent to have some clerk bully me into sitting on a bike as he expects me to sit.
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b/1a/438b1acf9d354dc18718849987ece1ca.jpg
Yes. What about it? If you're so outraged about my bicycle (which fits me to within 1mm, and is fast with secure roadholding and handling, and comfortable besides) send me half a dozen of yours and I'll dispose of them thoughtfully. As I said yesterday, "I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages [of my bicycle] and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike." You didn't need to prove it again.
> My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.
Quite. Whatever wiggles your wick. But trying to make me conform to your prejudices starts a loser and soon gets painful, and after all that is absolutely guaranteed to have not the slightest effect.
> -- Jay Beattie.
I love this:
> My wife had a comfort bike like that
Jay intends me to be embarrassed about it. Yeah, that's going to work a treat on someone of my proven unimpressionability. If you still dream of being Atticus Finch, you should learn to be less transparent, Jay.
> My wife had a comfort bike like that
That sentence is however, much more interestingly, an admission that what I've always said is true: that the roadie crowd believes that what doesn't hurt isn't real cycling. It's just one more reason why the general public in the non-cycling nations look at the cyclists they do have, and reject them and all their crude efforts at control freakery on automobilists out of hand.
Andre Jute
I should get a Nobel Prize for my patience
Andre Jute
Dec 10, 2019, 12:50:33 PM12/10/19
to
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 1:36:21 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
>
> I think head tubes (and stack heights) have grown as cyclists have gotten older and less flexible.
Absolutely. A guy at a highly reputed British bike maker (whose prices are aimed at an older class of cyclist) told me that the most knowledgeable cyclists ask, often as their first question, some version of "Has the steerer tube been cut?" or "Can you deliver with the steerer tube uncut?"
Andre Jute
Implications
>
> I think head tubes (and stack heights) have grown as cyclists have gotten older and less flexible.
Absolutely. A guy at a highly reputed British bike maker (whose prices are aimed at an older class of cyclist) told me that the most knowledgeable cyclists ask, often as their first question, some version of "Has the steerer tube been cut?" or "Can you deliver with the steerer tube uncut?"
Andre Jute
Implications
AMuzi
Dec 10, 2019, 1:58:37 PM12/10/19
to
bikes but otherwise meaningless.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
David Scheidt
Dec 10, 2019, 3:19:07 PM12/10/19
to
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
:When I first started work as a plant engineer, I was pleased to learn
attached. I learned that everyone who worked in the building,
regardless what they actually did, was entitled to a safety shoe
stipend with the mobile work boot truck that came by a couple times a
year. I got a pair of steel toed wingtips. a few years later, I was
on a site visit to a construction site, and the safety dude wasn't
going to let me on site, because he refused to believe my wingtips
were real safety shoes. I offered to stomp him until he changed his
mind, but the site manager decided to let me in.
:But when I began hanging around machine shops, I soon learned that when
--
sig 51
:When I first started work as a plant engineer, I was pleased to learn
:that the company was giving me two pairs of dress shoes with steel toes.
:Those are now long, long gone, and I haven't had steel toe shoes since.
At a former job, I worked at a facility that had manufacturing
:Those are now long, long gone, and I haven't had steel toe shoes since.
attached. I learned that everyone who worked in the building,
regardless what they actually did, was entitled to a safety shoe
stipend with the mobile work boot truck that came by a couple times a
year. I got a pair of steel toed wingtips. a few years later, I was
on a site visit to a construction site, and the safety dude wasn't
going to let me on site, because he refused to believe my wingtips
were real safety shoes. I offered to stomp him until he changed his
mind, but the site manager decided to let me in.
:But when I began hanging around machine shops, I soon learned that when
:something is dropped, the proper reflex is not to break its fall with
:your foot, as one might do when drying dishes. The proper reflex is to
:get your feet out of the way and let the object hit the floor.
Yeah. good plan.
:your foot, as one might do when drying dishes. The proper reflex is to
:get your feet out of the way and let the object hit the floor.
--
sig 51
russell...@yahoo.com
Dec 10, 2019, 3:27:51 PM12/10/19
to
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 9:42:20 AM UTC-6, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> Not enough ground conductivity. These work better:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=lawn+aerator+shoes&tbm=isch>
> but have their limitations. For example, they don't work well with
> any of my bicycle pedals and tend to shred panniers. However, they do
> protect my feet.
>
Why would they shred your panniers? If the bottom of your feet are hitting your panniers, then you have other problems you need to worry about before footwear. If your heels are hitting the panniers, then your panniers are almost certainly pushed too far forward on the rear rack. Push them back and use some clamps or something to make sure they stay at the back of the rack. And if your problem is because you have size 15 feet, then you will have to get a custom touring bike with extra long chainstays to make sure the rear rack and panniers are back far enough. And you'll just have to live with the large amount of toe overlap with the front wheel.
>
> Not enough ground conductivity. These work better:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=lawn+aerator+shoes&tbm=isch>
> but have their limitations. For example, they don't work well with
> any of my bicycle pedals and tend to shred panniers. However, they do
> protect my feet.
>
David Scheidt
Dec 10, 2019, 3:29:00 PM12/10/19
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
:I believe the correct phrase is "anything worth doing is worth
--
sig 54
:I believe the correct phrase is "anything worth doing is worth
:over-doing". Anyway, I'm working on the problem starting with
:learning how to walk on water.
that will not leave you properly grounded.
:learning how to walk on water.
--
sig 54
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