Dura Ace 7700 Octalink bottom bracket... cures for clicking?
Ron Ruff
cup and cone bearings. I started using one about 6 months ago
(purchased used on ebay) since Ultegras are no longer available. I
live in a dry climate so sealing isn't a big issue for me, and I'm
favorably impressed with the design... the roller bearings take nearly
all the load, with the cup-cones taking care of lateral displacement.
Seemed like it should last a very long time if well maintained.
For ~4k miles after installation it has worked great, but then
developed an odd "groaning" sound when pushing on the right crank.
There was a bit of play so I tightened things up a little and the
noise went away. A few days later though, the left side started making
a clicking creaking sound at the bottom of the stroke, only when
pushing hard. This time I pulled everything apart and noticed that I'd
tightened it a little too much. A little bit of play is probably
ideal. All the races looked like new, except for the spindle itself
where there is evidence of the rollers running on it, but no scratches
or pitting.
Anyway, after cleaning greasing and putting it all back together it
still clicks... regardless of play. Loose or tight makes no
difference. I took it apart again and noticed that the inner cones
which slip-fit (light interference fit?) on the spindle seem quite
loose, and I wonder if this is the problem. Maybe the slight
overtightening caused too much load on these and they quickly wore a
looser fit than ideal? Maybe now they rock a little on the spindle and
this is causing the noise? Another thorough cleaning and regreasing
didn't change a thing.
Has anyone had a similar experience with this BB and was able to make
the noise go away?
jim beam
> Yes, this is the old serviceable and adjustable model with roller and
> cup and cone bearings. I started using one about 6 months ago
> (purchased used on ebay)
don't you think that might be an issue???
> since Ultegras are no longer available. I
> live in a dry climate so sealing isn't a big issue for me, and I'm
> favorably impressed with the design... the roller bearings take nearly
> all the load, with the cup-cones taking care of lateral displacement.
> Seemed like it should last a very long time if well maintained.
>
> For ~4k miles after installation it has worked great, but then
> developed an odd "groaning" sound when pushing on the right crank.
> There was a bit of play so I tightened things up a little and the
> noise went away. A few days later though, the left side started making
> a clicking creaking sound at the bottom of the stroke, only when
> pushing hard. This time I pulled everything apart and noticed that I'd
> tightened it a little too much. A little bit of play is probably
> ideal. All the races looked like new, except for the spindle itself
> where there is evidence of the rollers running on it, but no scratches
> or pitting.
>
> Anyway, after cleaning greasing and putting it all back together it
> still clicks... regardless of play.
then it's not the play!
> Loose or tight makes no
> difference. I took it apart again and noticed that the inner cones
> which slip-fit (light interference fit?) on the spindle seem quite
> loose, and I wonder if this is the problem. Maybe the slight
> overtightening caused too much load on these and they quickly wore a
> looser fit than ideal? Maybe now they rock a little on the spindle and
> this is causing the noise? Another thorough cleaning and regreasing
> didn't change a thing.
>
> Has anyone had a similar experience with this BB and was able to make
> the noise go away?
i've used this spindle extensively over about 10 years and have never
had any problems with it.
as for diagnosis, you have to be methodical. assuming something and
trying to itch that same scratch over and over, as you've shown, isn't
going to work.
rruff
> then it's not the play!
I thought I mentioned that.
> as for diagnosis, you have to be methodical. assuming something and
> trying to itch that same scratch over and over, as you've shown, isn't
> going to work.
The only assumption I'm making is that it clicks. I'm speculating that
it could be the loose cones since I don't have any better ideas. I've
read several reports that claim over-tightening will ruin one for
good, but no mention of what actually gets ruined. What itch am I
scratching over and over? Taking it apart and inspecting it twice?
BTW, the shell has been faced and the play in the bearing seems very
consistent as it is turned (ie no loose and tight spots). I use
plumber's tape on the threads of the cup so it seems unlikely that it
would be moving around, and the lockring is tight and stays that way.
Lou Holtman
Are you sure it is the bottom bracket? I have been chasing a similar
click of one of my bikes. Only appears when pushing hard or riding out
of the saddle. I swapped the rear wheel, nothing changed. Regreased and
reinstalled the Campy BB cartridge, nothing changed. Then I tried to
introduce the clicks by bending frame, handlebar, fork etc. and listing
carefully. And there it was..... the ferrules in the cablestops. Put
some grease on and the clicks are gone.
Lou
jim beam
my point exactly.
Jay Beattie
Sometimes it is also the suspected part, but the remedy was inadequate
by about 2Nm. With BBs, I have had noises go away with some
additional snugging that did not result in any appreciable movement of
a cup. On my aluminum BBs, Teflon tape or paste has also worked. --
Jay Beattie.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
The Octalink crank attachment, its feet of clay, has no preload
between the facets of the square spline and therefore frets (tiny
motion] elastically, even if it has no actual backlash in torque.
Aluminum parts against steel are a classic of this syndrome because
the softer aluminum frets on the steel, and instead of developing
rouge as steel-on-steel does, it makes (hard) aluminum oxide whose
repeated fracture often makes a sharp click.
I haven't heard your BB, but I have heard such clicks. This may be
your problem and the reason why Shimano gave up on Octalink. Elastic
backlash (absence of press fit) is a phenomenon that escapes
recognition in various mechanical devices and gets passed over in
time, even when the reason is not recognized.
Jobst Brandt
Lou Holtman
Sure. The OP can do a simple test. Face the bike sideways. Put the crank
in the lower position en step on the pedal and increase the force (see
how the bracket shell bends) slowly. You might hear Listen carefully,
best in a silent room. You might hear a single click. If not step on the
other side of the bike and do the same. If you hear no clicks it is
unlikely that the BB is the guilty part.
Lou
RS
5d36b7...@y10g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
rruff...@yahoo.com says...
Check your Chain ring bolts. Take each one off, lightly grease, and
tighten them back on. This can cause clicking.
Adjusting the 7700 BB is an art form. I find it best to install the BB
with both grease and tape after greasing the internal bearings.
Before tightening the adjustable side install your crank, it will give
you more leverage to check for play. Tighten non-drive side just
until there is no play, but no more.
Any wear showing on the spindle or races isn't good, these must be
smooth. The DA7700 BB requires periodic maintenance, especially in
bad weather. Roller bearings are very nice but this design was
perhaps overly engineered.
rruff
I installed a different spindle+cones and it has been quiet for ~20
miles... but it usually takes awhile for the noise to return. The
cable stops do make a ticking sound at times, but this is a different
noise... at any rate I greased them. If the clicking returns I'll try
greasing the chainring bolts (they are tight). Pedals have been
removed and threads greased, and they feel very smooth. I tried using
a different set of wheels earlier and this had no effect.
The fact that messing with the BB brings temporary relief indicates
that something around there is the cause. I hope it isn't the crank-
spindle interface. It is a series of clicks (with a creaking element)
that only occurs at the bottom of the left side when force is very
high. I tried getting it to happen by pushing hard on the pedals
(bottom of stroke) when coasting, but it didn't work.
P. Chisholm
Upgrade to the 105 level BB. Same as Ultegra with a black spindle.
Lots of grease inside the BB shell and inside the LH cup.
P. Chisholm
Make sure you grease the spindle end and tighten it till it
stops..tight!
jim beam
incorrect jobst. you have failed to observe the fine details of the
design and therefore are missing the fact that the teeth are radiused at
the root. spindle teeth "deform to fit" with their corresponding
partners on the crank thus making a perfectly snug fit which does /NOT/
fret. as you would know if you'd bothered to use one of these things
yourself, bothered to study one after a period in service, and could pay
attention to the fact that after more than a decade of use, the octalink
interface survives use in the field most successfully with NONE of the
symptoms you suppose.
> (tiny
> motion] elastically, even if it has no actual backlash in torque.
> Aluminum parts against steel are a classic of this syndrome because
> the softer aluminum frets on the steel, and instead of developing
> rouge as steel-on-steel does, it makes (hard) aluminum oxide whose
> repeated fracture often makes a sharp click.
rubbish.
>
> I haven't heard your BB, but I have heard such clicks. This may be
> your problem and the reason why Shimano gave up on Octalink.
but they haven't.
a. they still sell it.
b. they still use the interface on their integrated spindle designs.
why don't you bother to check facts jobst? is it laziness or just plain
idiot dogma?
> Elastic
> backlash (absence of press fit) is a phenomenon that escapes
> recognition in various mechanical devices and gets passed over in
> time, even when the reason is not recognized.
except by shimano who effectively employ it as described above. and
whose usage apparently can't be acknowledged by "experts" who can't be
bothered to get off their ass and actually look.
rruff
> Upgrade to the 105 level BB. Same as Ultegra with a black spindle.
> Lots of grease inside the BB shell and inside the LH cup.
I don't recall where, but someone posted that the 105 and Ultegra are
in fact not the same (claiming that they'd cut them open to see), and
that the Ultegra is superior... more bearings I think.
Peter... have you experienced the 7700 making noises like I described
and have you had any luck at "fixing" them, when all the parts look
good?
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Therein lies the problem. In the absence of a press fit spline, (a
feature the ISIS design seems to have considered) elastic backlash of
the crank to spindle allows the crank to fret rotationally enough to
gradually loosen the retaining bolt and ultimately shear off the
spline in the crank. Its progress is invisible to users. As a
response, Shimano offered a version with longer spline, thinking the
first type was too short. That didn't solve the problem, so now
Octalink is passé.
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
> Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
>>> Thanks for all the replies.
>
>>> I installed a different spindle+cones and it has been quiet for ~20
>>> miles... but it usually takes awhile for the noise to return. The
>>> cable stops do make a ticking sound at times, but this is a
>>> different noise... at any rate I greased them. If the clicking
>>> returns I'll try greasing the chainring bolts (they are tight).
>>> Pedals have been removed and threads greased, and they feel very
>>> smooth. I tried using a different set of wheels earlier and this
>>> had no effect.
>
>>> The fact that messing with the BB brings temporary relief indicates
>>> that something around there is the cause. I hope it isn't the
>>> crank- spindle interface. It is a series of clicks (with a
>>> creaking element) that only occurs at the bottom of the left side
>>> when force is very high. I tried getting it to happen by pushing
>>> hard on the pedals (bottom of stroke) when coasting, but it didn't
>>> work.
>
>> Make sure you grease the spindle end and tighten it till it
>> stops..tight!
>
> Therein lies the problem. In the absence of a press fit spline,
jobst, get of your stubborn incorrect ass and look at the freakin' thing
will you? you've confessed to bad eyesight, so we understand if you
fuck up the first time, but now you've been alerted to the fact that
you've missed a small but vital design element, you need to CHECK YOUR
FACTS AND CORRECT YOUR MISTAKES with this repeated but erroneous drivel.
> (a
> feature the ISIS design seems to have considered) elastic backlash of
> the crank to spindle allows the crank to fret rotationally enough to
> gradually loosen the retaining bolt and ultimately shear off the
> spline in the crank.
except that it doesn't! of all the octalink cranks sold globally over
the past decade plus, any problem would be exposed with volume failures.
instead, we have none because YOU ARE FUNDAMENTALLY INCORRECT in your
observation of the design.
> Its progress is invisible to users. As a
> response, Shimano offered a version with longer spline, thinking the
> first type was too short.
no, that was to differentiate the road from the mtb markets.
> That didn't solve the problem, so now
> Octalink is passé.
what problem jobst? where are the failures? other than your eyesight
and stubbornness of course.
Lou Holtman
> On May 2, 6:13 am, "P. Chisholm" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> Upgrade to the 105 level BB. Same as Ultegra with a black spindle.
>> Lots of grease inside the BB shell and inside the LH cup.
>
> I don't recall where, but someone posted that the 105 and Ultegra are
> in fact not the same (claiming that they'd cut them open to see), and
> that the Ultegra is superior... more bearings I think.
Pro Race team Rabobank used Ultegra BB instead of this finicky DA BB.
Lou
Derk
> Peter... have you experienced the 7700 making noises like I described
> and have you had any luck at "fixing" them, when all the parts look
> good?
I have th esame problm with a titanium bike plus Ultegra Octalink: I
litterally took the complete bike apart, and I really mean that, and
greased everything again, plus put teflon tape around the Octalink's
threads, but it also only helped for a very short period. It's driving me
nuts too.
Derk
jim beam
did you do the chainring bolts?