Chain lubrication article in _Bicycling_

[Frank Krygowski]

Chain lubrication has a long history on r.b.tech as a "religious issue."
Billions of electrons have been spent over the decades in arguments
defending individual's choices, and disparaging the lubrication choices
of others.

What's been new in the last ten years or so is well accepted data done
by precise measurements. One example is here:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/

The latest I've seen pop up was in the current issue of _Bicycling_
magazine. There's a long article about a guy doing extremely detailed
lab testing of dozens of lubricants under a variety of conditions
(clean, dirty, wet, etc.). He tracks chain wear (or "stretch") but says
it correlates very well with efficiency, as measured in the Friction
Facts lab tests.

Of course, I'm mentioning this because the results of both those tests
confirm what I've been saying for maybe 30 years: that dry wax based
lubes work really, really well. :-) They take the top places in this
guy's rankings, by large margins, giving many times longer chain life.
The article even breaks down the issue of costs (notify Joerg!) telling
how dry wax lubes can save serious amounts of money on chains, cogs and
chainrings.

I've used hot paraffin wax with a bit of oil blended in for decades. I'm
not so much worried about expense or minimizing friction loss. I just
like that it's easy for me to apply, it lasts a nice long time and it
keeps my bike far cleaner than any wet lube. But it's nice to see even
more confirmation of testing information that first popped up way back
in the late 1970s:
https://flic.kr/p/dkUGq6
https://flic.kr/p/dkULS1

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Oh man, chain lubrication is discussed to death. Anyone with a little sense understands that sand/dirt in the chain is what makes chains wear. Knowing that it is not hard to understand that oil is the dumbest chainlube if you want your chain to last.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

And yet many do not understand!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:38:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/6/2023 11:53 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

and many simply disagree. Aint diversity wonderful?

[Tom Kunich]

Well, until you wear off the exterior coating of wax, it can pick up various types of dirt. I agree that oil is worse but nothing is "perfect" Perhaps there could be a way of cooking Teflon into the chain links and rollers. That would probably be a lot better.

[AMuzi]

We now only 'celebrate' meaningless superficial visual
diversity. Actual intellectual or viewpoint diversity is not
allowed.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Lou Holtman]

And I don’t mind. Just smile when they mention their chainlife of 2500-3500 km and their trouble of cleaning their oily chain with nasty solvents.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Right. We're in an age where "I disagree" is acceptable to some even if
it goes against direct measurements, recorded facts, sworn testimony,
proven science, etc. When possible, it's best to not bother with such
people. Logic is wasted on them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark Cleary]

I use Menards lumber store 3-in-1 oil on my chain. The oil say says it is for less than 3/4 HP motors and I don't put that out for any length of time. Using this ultra cheap big box store lube I get about 5-6000 miles on a chain. Wipe it down with OMS about every 400 miles and re-lube. Occassionally if really cleaning the drive train I take the chain off and dunk in jar of OMS and re-attach. No wax for me thank you
Deacon Mark

[Tom Kunich]

People that use light weight cheap oil and oil it down well and often find that their chains and rings have as good a life as Lou's wax or Frank's blind belief in science he doesn't understand because every case is different.

I use wax for one reason - the chain and cogs stay cleaner to the eye.

[Lou Holtman]

Well if your chain and cogs stay cleaner what does that mean? I cleaned my crossbike after the very muddy ride of last Sunday with just water (hosed it of at the carwash) and dried bike and chain and relubed my chain. Whole proces took me 30 minutes in total spread over a couple of intervals. Bike is still on the workstand I can post a picture of the relubed chain.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Got data?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

You and I prefer wax. Others ride in different conditions and may not want to invest in an ultrasonic cleaner and a hot pot to melt the wax in. Also there is the matter of workspace. People can easily put a bike through a commercial carwash, blow dry it and dump a load of cheap light oil on it then and before every ride and get the same result. We are rather special cases and showing what bike nerds we are is probably avoidable. And most people do not want getting their bike dirty.

[Lou Holtman]

I only give my opinion what to use when asked. I don’t take my chain off or put it in a ultra sonic cleaner or in a hot pot. I think too that that us excessive. My chains stay on the bike, only cleaned with water and soap and I use ready to use lube that I can buy, Squirt in my case.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:54:10 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
<deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:44:32?PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 12/6/2023 3:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I hit my White Lightning lubed chain with a power washer every now and
then, keeping away from the hubs.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 15:44:25 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/6/2023 3:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<EYEROLL> What a load of horse turds. See above...

I generally disagree when people use "studies" to validate their
insistence that I'm wrong not to do what they think is best for me.

>When possible, it's best to not bother with such
>people.

That's fine with me...

> Logic is wasted on them.

That's from the guy who insists that correlation = causation.

[Frank Krygowski]

An ultrasonic cleaner is not required. I don't have one. I don't use a
hot pot to apply the wax.

But I'm not saying anyone must, or should, use a wax lube. As always,
you're free to use whatever you like. I'm just referencing measured data
that shows that for most cycling, a wax lube actually works best.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

I do use Squirt though on very wet MTB rides it’s not able to stick to, ie
gets washed out.

Works well on the commute and Gravel bike both of which don’t get subjected
to bog snorkelling type of use.

I do still use squirt on the MTB but if I know it’s going to be really wet
I’ll use an oil for that ride.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 14:46:53 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 11:09:57?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 1:44:53?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 10:16:02?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 12:54:12?PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:

>> > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:44:32?PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > > > > On 12/6/2023 3:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

In California minimum salary is $20.50/hour and Amazon lists chains
for 10 speed for as cheap as $21.99. If a chain lasts for, lets say, 2
month then that equates to a bit over 6 hours's work per year. Is it
worth worrying about?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:45:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> In California minimum salary is $20.50/hour

California minimum wage, after Jan 1, 2024, will be $16 per hr.
<https://www.dir.ca.gov/DIRNews/2023/2023-66.html>
Some cities and counties in California have a local minimum wage that
is higher than the state rate.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 14:09:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>You and I prefer wax. Others ride in different conditions and may not want to invest in an ultrasonic cleaner and a hot pot to melt the wax in. Also there is the matter of workspace. People can easily put a bike through a commercial carwash, blow dry it and dump a load of cheap light oil on it then and before every ride and get the same result. We are rather special cases and showing what bike nerds we are is probably avoidable. And most people do not want getting their bike dirty.

Tom: The last time I attempted to count your bicycles, you allegedly
had about 12 bicycles.
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/>
(The last message is from Tom).
"And here I am with 12 bikes in the garage."

That assumes you have enough room in your garage workshop for your
Taurus X, a bicycle workshop, and 12 bicycles. If you rotated your
daily ride between all 12 bicycles:
<https://www.facebook.com/thomas.kunich.1/photos_by>
your average mileage per bicycle would be 1/12-th of your annual ride
mileage. That would be much less wear on each of your 14 chains. You
also tend to purchase a bicycle, ride it a few times, and then sell
it, which would also reduce the wear on each chain. I agree that you
are a VERY special case.

[John B.]

On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:37:17 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:45:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> In California minimum salary is $20.50/hour
>
>California minimum wage, after Jan 1, 2024, will be $16 per hr.
><https://www.dir.ca.gov/DIRNews/2023/2023-66.html>
>Some cities and counties in California have a local minimum wage that
>is higher than the state rate.

Yes, but had I quoted the minimum in Eastovershoe,CA someone would
have said, no, no, no, the state rate is different :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 10:09:55 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:37:17 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:45:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> In California minimum salary is $20.50/hour
>>
>>California minimum wage, after Jan 1, 2024, will be $16 per hr.
>><https://www.dir.ca.gov/DIRNews/2023/2023-66.html>
>>Some cities and counties in California have a local minimum wage that
>>is higher than the state rate.
>
>Yes, but had I quoted the minimum in Eastovershoe,CA someone would
>have said, no, no, no, the state rate is different :-)

Nope. They would have also mentioned that the California minimum wage
is hourly and not a salary. Also, you didn't "quote" the minimum
wage. You offered a number and then expected me to find the correct
number.

Someone might also have mentioned that the minimum wage in Calif might
increase after the Nov 2024 election and become a "living wage":
<https://ballotpedia.org/California_$18_Minimum_Wage_Initiative_(2024)>

No need to thank me.

[Lou Holtman]

You can not use Squirt on an oily/greasy chain. You have to degrease a new chain first. After that only use Squirt and no oil anymore. It is in the instructions of Squirt.

Lou

[John B.]

On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 19:37:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 10:09:55 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:37:17 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:45:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> In California minimum salary is $20.50/hour
>>>
>>>California minimum wage, after Jan 1, 2024, will be $16 per hr.
>>><https://www.dir.ca.gov/DIRNews/2023/2023-66.html>
>>>Some cities and counties in California have a local minimum wage that
>>>is higher than the state rate.
>>
>>Yes, but had I quoted the minimum in Eastovershoe,CA someone would
>>have said, no, no, no, the state rate is different :-)
>
>Nope. They would have also mentioned that the California minimum wage
>is hourly and not a salary. Also, you didn't "quote" the minimum
>wage. You offered a number and then expected me to find the correct
>number.
>
>Someone might also have mentioned that the minimum wage in Calif might
>increase after the Nov 2024 election and become a "living wage":
><https://ballotpedia.org/California_$18_Minimum_Wage_Initiative_(2024)>
>
>No need to thank me.

Well :-) Many working people consider their hourly earnings as their
salary :-) although granted they multiply by 8 and then by 5, 5-1/2, 6
or even 7 :-)

As for "living wage" it doesn't work that a way. They raise your
salary, you get more money and your boss has to charge more for your
work to make a profit so because salaries have increased costs also go
up.

And 'round and 'round it goes and where it stops nobody knows...

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 13:37:05 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

It tends to slow down when a foreign company with lower labor costs
can produce the product cheaper, or when the U S employer notices that
he can move his business to another country and find cheaper labor.

Labor unions and the US government support of them has ruined the US
manufacturing industries.

[Lou Holtman]

I don't know. I think a valid option is to lube the shit out of the chain to reduce friction and not bothered with cleaning, keep an eye on the chainwear and replace the chain when necessary if you want the cassette to last. If not just wait until the chain skips on the infrequent used cogs and replace chain and cassette. I use that regime on my utility bike with an open chainguard to protect my trousers. Most people however want to clean their chain from time to time. In that case an oily chain is a PIA and in my opinion useless.

Lou

[John B.]

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 00:33:27 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I don't know. I think a valid option is to lube the shit out of rthe chain to reduce friction and not bothered with cleaning, keep an eye on the chainwear and replace the chain when necessary if you want the cassette to last. If not just wait until the chain skips on the infrequent used cogs and replace chain and cassette. I use that regime on my utility bike with an open chainguard to protect my trousers. Most people however want to clean their chain from time to time. In that case an oily chain is a PIA and in my opinion useless.
>
>Lou

I probably should be a bit more explicit. I was referring to the
battles (verbal if nothing else) over the proper way to care for a
chain. After all you just splurged 5,6 hundred dollars, or more, on
this eleventeen speed, plastic thing, with the electric transmission
and the hydraulic brakes . Is $17 a couple of times a year something
to worry about :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:21:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Regarding arguments(some call them discussions) about trivial issues,
Perhaps we (RBT) should have a serious "discussion" about what is the
best handlebar tape.

Perhaps ??someone?? could post some personal or "friend" related
anecdotes about their problems or solutions, or maybe some ??facts??
about being interviewed about their handlebar tape related issues.

[John B.]

I can't say as I've never had a problem finding a job. Granted I spent
20 years in the Military but that is a job that is open to almost
anyone and in those 20 years I gained a lot of experience in work that
was useful in civilian life. When I retired I was living in Southern
California and couldn't find what I thought was a decent job so I went
overseas to work.

The point is that I didn't do anything difficult or outstanding and
about anyone that can walk, talk and blink their eyes could do the
same.

But I read all the do gooders whining about "Oh those poor folks that
can't find a job". And there are, I read, 8 million undocumented
immigrants working in the U.S. But there ain't no jobs!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Cost is not a problem. There are other reasons.

Lou

[John B.]

https://tinyurl.com/2avbjbt8
Well. there is absolutely nothing to discuss here as the BEST bar tape
is sown leather and a bargain too, only $54, marked down from $68 :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

After a very wet MTB ride I clean chains, what oil remains I remove. For
such a ride ie where your fording though water and so on, the chain has
been washed clean hence Squirt not lasting the ride, and so removing what
remains isn’t particularly long job.

Nor cleaning the bike in general as such rides tend not to pick up much mud
as well so much water.

These are exceptions that prove the normal as my got to on all my bike is
squirt, which just works for most part even in muddy conditions just not
riding up rivers and so on!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Squirt or similar wax based lubricants are really easy to live with, one of
the local shops has it or I can order it online. Particularly useful for
the commute bike that I don’t clean really and the chain etc don’t gum up.
That’s its main thing is it remains clean.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:47:56 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

There are job openings posted on most every store front and small
service business location around here. However there are not many
steel mills nor electronic/appliance manufacturers in the USA. The
Catrike frames are built in the USA but are assembled with mostly
foreign made parts.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:58:35 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I trust there is instruction available for learning how to sew them
on.

[AMuzi]

The great gnashing of teeth over 'living wage' for work
'unable to support a family of four' ignores that nearly all
minimum wage earners are single marginal employees; teens,
retired, mostly part time in unskilled or low skill
positions. That's both due to limited capacity (experience,
maturity, motivation, schedule conflicts etc) and desire.
News flash- not everyone is 'career motivated', especially
when basic living expenses (rent) are low to nil.

I have worked below 'minimum' and was grateful for the work.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Using a "wax based" chain lubricant is NOT waxing your chain.

[Tom Kunich]

I only made minimum wage once - when I was washing dishes in a restaurant. In the Air Force I made FAR below the minimum wage.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/7/2023 5:47 AM, John B. wrote:
> I read all the do gooders whining about "Oh those poor folks that
> can't find a job". And there are, I read, 8 million undocumented
> immigrants working in the U.S. But there ain't no jobs!

Where are you reading about people who can't find jobs? The unemployment
rate is lower than it's been for the past 30 years, maybe longer.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

..mostly because many people are not looking for jobs. The so called
"unemployment rate" is the percentage of people looking for jobs.

[AMuzi]

The official 'unemployment rate' counts only people drawing
relief checks on the UC accounts. Labor participation rate
is abysmal and employment (people who paid payroll taxes
last week) remains lackluster.

But you make a good point that 'unemployed' and 'employable'
are very different groups.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes. People who choose not to work are not "those poor folks that can't
find a job" that John referenced.

I actually have one good friend who has very seldom worked full time,
and another who lived that way for many years. The second simply gave
much higher priority to her artistic career. The former just didn't care
much about money, and has always lived very low on the hog, so to speak.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

And spans a wide range from alcoholic/drug addled petty
criminals to artists/authors to the, well, offbeat.

I know a man who inherited a half acre with a summer cabin
50 miles north of Madison WI. He added some insulation and a
kerosene heater, he hunts and fishes, sells pelts, busks
with his guitar at local events and works a few hours here
and there when absolutely necessary. Nothing wrong with that
but he's among what are called 'under employed.

[John B.]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:46:05 -0500, Catrike Rider

OF COURSE... Didn't you know? there is a You Tube for
Everything :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 07:04:53 -0500, Catrike Rider

Of course you are correct. I remember reading that the steel used in
the rebuilding, repairing, whatever, of some bridge in San Francisco
was done with steel imported from China as "there was no steel mill
in the U.S. capable of providing the material within the time limits
to meet the construction schedule".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 07:35:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ah but the USAF was providing your food, housing, medical and dental
care, and even the clothes that you wore.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 05:27:35 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Shouldn't there be a classroom with a blackboard and an instructor?

Do you get a pretty piece of paper to frame and hang on the wall?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 05:44:09 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Of course you are correct. I remember reading that the steel used in
>the rebuilding, repairing, whatever, of some bridge in San Francisco
>was done with steel imported from China as "there was no steel mill
>in the U.S. capable of providing the material within the time limits
>to meet the construction schedule".

Good, fast, cheap. Pick any two.
Fast and cheap means it's not going to be very good.

"The Made-in-China Bay Bridge Continues to Cost California"
<https://www.americanmanufacturing.org/blog/the-made-in-china-bay-bridge-continues-to-cost-california/>

"Dang: The Chinese-Made Bay Bridge Continues to Fall Apart"
<https://www.americanmanufacturing.org/blog/dang-the-chinese-made-bay-bridge-continues-to-fall-apart/>

In China, poor construction and/or poor quality materials are called
"Tofu Dreg" construction projects:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu-dreg_project>

Some videos on Tofu Dreg construction projects:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tofu+dregs>

When I hire a contractor to build something, I like to see what
they've previously built and ask the owners for their opinions. I
don't see how the Calif Dept of Transportation could have ignored the
constructions problems in China and then wondered why we're having
similar problems in the US.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

Re: how the rate is determined see
https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

As of November 2023 there were 1.8 million people drawing unemployment
and, as I wrote some 8 million illegal workers employed, in the U.S.

But regardless of the present rate versus previous rates you still
have nearly 2 million people sucking on the government tit in an
society where there are 8 million illegal workers.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 18:03:59 -0500, Catrike Rider

I'm sure there is a classroom somewhere.
after all
Cornell University, students have the opportunity learn about tree
climbing! The course includes learning how to climb trees, and basic
skills of tree hazard assessment, line placement, ascending,
descending, and moving around in the canopy.
And...
At the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City, you can take
classes in designing clothes for pets!

But no diploma! After all isn't all the chaps gathering around,
pointing fingers and saying, "Oh Look! Real leather handlebar covers!"
enough of an ego trip? :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:20:28 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Every time I read about something like the bridge building and all the
problems I'm reminded of how an international oil company manages
their project.

The company I worked for had two oil production barges in the Java sea
and was considering building more and thinking it might be cheaper in
Indonesia so we visited a yard that was building off shore towers.

There were two "paint inspectors" there, Australian guys, and we got
to talking about quality control. They told me that every can of paint
- to comes in something like 5 gallon lots, was sampled and the sample
sent to Singapore to be analyzed before that can was used. Each coat
of paint was checked for thickness after drying, and even the sand
used to sand blast the towers before painting was tested - it seems
that if you use "beach sand" it is likely to contain salt which may
cause poor paint adhesion.

From what I read the S.F. bridge builders didn't do that :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 10:03:48 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Examples of our stupid dishonest government are everywhere, along
with, of course, the stupid, dishonest voters who elect and put up
with them.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 10:50:22 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

...and then there is "Gender Studies" for confused people intent on
becoming even more confused.

[John B.]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:36:18 -0500, Catrike Rider

Well Yes. I suppose that some folks have to study to determine the
difference between male and female (dogs can figure it out without
classes).

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2023 04:30:48 -0500, Catrike Rider

But, the best way to get elected in a democratic country is to start
your speeches with "If Elected I will give you...". The yellow hair
guy tried, "Make America Strong..." and that didn't work at all :-(

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Rolf Mantel]

Well Yes, and some people might have to take language training to
understand the difference between 'Sex' and 'Gender'.

Some other people might enroll in training as a Gynaecologist to
understand that Sex is easily determined for 99% of people but might
take a special DNA analysis for some ("Where's her ovaries?" - "She
doesn't have any").

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 12:29:43 +0100, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

There is no difference.

[Rolf Mantel]

You might benefit from language training then. You might learn the
lingistic difference between 'Sex' (biological) and 'gender' (behavioural)

<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender>

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 14:11:31 +0100, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>

"Usage of sex and gender is by no means settled."
--from your cite

IMO, claiming and pretending to be a woman does not make anyone a
woman. That opinion is shared by many others.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Floriduh dumbass would rather wallow in his self imposed ignorance than admit he's basically just a homophobe.

[Rolf Mantel]

Agreed but 'not settled' is semantically different from 'identical'.

> IMO, claiming and pretending to be a woman does not make anyone a
> woman. That opinion is shared by many others.

As a mathematician, I am used to distinguish between "different
definitions are known to be identical", "different definitions are
possibly identical" (no counter-example is known at the moment) and
"different definitions are very similar" (on a coarse level you won't be
completely wrong if you ignore the difference but in certain special
situations you have to be careful).

There are a number of different definitions of 'Sex'. What to we call
people who are male according to some definitions and female according
to others? "Woman with penis" (if DNA definition dominates) or "man with
XX Chromosomes" (if visual definition dominates)?
Simple people can just ignore such problems on the basis that they have
not met such people personally; science, the legal system and society
have to make a choice.

[AMuzi]

That's just the UC parasites.
It's over 50% now. Utterly unsustainable.

[AMuzi]

Hence the popular expression, "Close enough for government
work" which describes things of unacceptable quality otherwise.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 15:07:57 +0100, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>

I say there is no difference between sex and gender, however there is
considerable difference between men who know they are male and males
who pretend to be women.

>> IMO, claiming and pretending to be a woman does not make anyone a
>> woman. That opinion is shared by many others.
>
>As a mathematician, I am used to distinguish between "different
>definitions are known to be identical", "different definitions are
>possibly identical" (no counter-example is known at the moment) and
>"different definitions are very similar" (on a coarse level you won't be
>completely wrong if you ignore the difference but in certain special
>situations you have to be careful).
>
>There are a number of different definitions of 'Sex'. What to we call
>people who are male according to some definitions and female according
>to others? "Woman with penis" (if DNA definition dominates) or "man with
>XX Chromosomes" (if visual definition dominates)?
>Simple people can just ignore such problems on the basis that they have
>not met such people personally; science, the legal system and society
>have to make a choice.
>

Society has made the choice long ago.

Understand, though, that I have no issue with any of these kinds of
issues that don't effect me. It's none of my business who someone is
sexually attracted to or has *legal* sexual activity with. Likewise,
it's none of my business if some individual thinks of themselves as
different from their DNA and acts and dresses as such. I'm seeing more
and more of that lately and I don't see any reason to make an issue of
it.

Making demands that others treat them according to their pretense is
an altogether other issue.

[Tom Kunich]

I certainly know that the bests bar tape is CERTAINLY not leather which in order to remain clean has a smooth surface that has almost no traction. Normal bar tape has so much traction that it wears holes though cycling gloves. Perhaps it should be explained to us if leather is so good why aren't the pros using it? Sewing it on? Doesn't that mean that the leather has to be cut specifically for each bar size and shape?

[Tom Kunich]

The problem lies with the educational system that allows total idiots like Liebermann to hang around for six years to avoid the draft and then pats him on the head and sends him out into the world a complete dunce to actually believes himself a genius when he couldn't even get a job in Silicon Valley as a technician let alone an engineer. Vacuum tubes my ass - if he could not design and program a complete integrated circuit design by the end of his first position he was less than a technician. That is why he had to start his own business catering to idiots that couldn't change their own inkjet printer cartridges. The only person with lower intellectual capacity than Krygowski here is Liebermann and yet they are both so in love with themselves that they have to brag about it to you.

[Tom Kunich]

You might benefit more from knowing that the pottery recovered from Sodom and Gomorrah had the same finish on it as if it had gone through a nuclear explosion. Do you suppose that they had nuclear weapons in the BC? There is NO difference between sex and gender regardless of the queer idea that you can be anything you like with a little operation. If you have a Y chromosome you are male. Nothing changes that.

[Tom Kunich]

Imagine what would become of the human race if AI and robotic workers did everything. Humans would be nothing more than babies suckling off of the tits of the superior intelligence. I dare say that even Krygowski can understand that since his entire existence was based on his work. As was that for most of us.

[Tom Kunich]

I simply cannot understand the idea that you have to have a degree to be smart and successful. My oldest step-daughter runs stores. She presently works for Ross, I don't think that she ever had any training in that line. The middle step-daughter has a masters in music and is a concert pianist and a PhD in physical therapy. They offered her a job teaching physical therapy despite having no experience whatsoever. She was bright enough to know that she didn't know much about physical therapy and that she could actually make money working a real job. The youngest step-daughter took some night classes to learn legal aid. Almost immediately Kaiser Hospital offered her a job and within months she was running the entire office and supplying the lawyers on the staff with every law and president they need to enter a court room.

Krygowski was satisfied to be a teacher. There are of course advantages to that. You don't need to change jobs to advance and you don't have to actually know that much so there is no mental strain to keep up with the advances in your subject beyond having to read the proper journals etc. And Krygowsky's job was necessary for the 20% of the engineers who actually worked in their field.

I had 20 or more science journals subscriptions as well as programming manuals and design strategies from chip makers that came in every day. Every year or so every chip maker would send me their manuals with their latest products high lighted and I would be expected to be able to design and program within hours of receiving them.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/8/2023 9:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> Understand, though, that I have no issue with any of these kinds of
> issues that don't effect me.

And yet this guy jumps headlong into any online rant about "these kinds
of issues." He needs to get a life outside right wing political outrage
on Usenet.

Here's an idea: Start a new project! Learn to ride on normal roads!
Leave the kiddie path behind!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 11:03:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/8/2023 9:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>
>> Understand, though, that I have no issue with any of these kinds of
>> issues that don't effect me.
>
>And yet this guy jumps headlong into any online rant about "these kinds
>of issues." He needs to get a life outside right wing political outrage
>on Usenet.

That''s from the guy who is still outraged (see below) because I won't
bike ride the way he wants.

[sms]

On 12/6/2023 8:53 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> Oh man, chain lubrication is discussed to death. Anyone with a little sense understands that sand/dirt in the chain is what makes chains wear. Knowing that it is not hard to understand that oil is the dumbest chainlube if you want your chain to last.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

If you do use wax be sure to mix it with oil so you at least have some
lubrication of the chain. I don't think that anyone still just uses pure
paraffin with no actual lubricant added.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[John B.]

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 14:11:31 +0100, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>

><r>

Or maybe
https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/33283
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and
differentiating between, femininity and masculinity. Depending on the
context, these characteristics may include biological sex, sex-based
social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity. Most
cultures use a gender binary, having two genders (boys/men and
girls/women);
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

:-) I was referring only to those on unemployment. If you want to
include everyone that gets even one penny from the government it is
vast.

"12.5% of the total U.S. population. On average, 41.2 million people
in 21.6 million households received monthly SNAP benefits in the 2022
fiscal year". In the...
I was going to say,in"in the richest country in the world" but I
looked it up and there are 9 other countries that on a GDP per capita
basis are richer then the U.S. :-(

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

OK those are two programs. Keep going and you get to over half.

[John B.]

I'm sure. But I have the excuse of not living there any more :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yep. As we see, there are those who are so attached to their views that
they will rely on "expert" testimony that's decades old. They purposely
ignore copious, precisely measured modern data.

I guess the teams and their mechanics now using paraffin based lubes on
the chains of their European pro riders are not "experts."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 06:44:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The problem lies with the educational system that allows total idiots like Liebermann to hang around for six years to avoid the draft and then pats him on the head and sends him out into the world a complete dunce to actually believes himself a genius when he couldn't even get a job in Silicon Valley as a technician let alone an engineer. Vacuum tubes my ass - if he could not design and program a complete integrated circuit design by the end of his first position he was less than a technician. That is why he had to start his own business catering to idiots that couldn't change their own inkjet printer cartridges. The only person with lower intellectual capacity than Krygowski here is Liebermann and yet they are both so in love with themselves that they have to brag about it to you.

Baloney, lies and distortions. I guess Tom wants some more attention.
I don't want to give him any attention. Well, maybe a little.

How does one "program a complete integrated circuit"? Perhaps in
VHDL, which you didn't even know the correct definition?
(02/05/2021)
VHDL
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/5Dzs6MuEgY0/m/gh_1kmHKBAAJ>
"VHDL is very high density logic and if you are talking about Very
High-level Design Language you say so and don't try to fool people
with acronyms that are most commonly used for something else."
VHDL is not Very High Density Logic. It's "Very High-Speed Integrated
Circuit Hardware Description Language".
That's totally wrong. Here's the correct description of VHDL.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHDL>

Or maybe you want to change your mind about having worked for Analog
Devices?
(02/11/2021)
Worked at Analog Devices
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/_Y1MbXuzvNo/m/yzMUyoSvAgAJ>
"I know that working at Analog Devices designing chips to you seems
somehow [un]important but not to me then and not to me now. Since you
don't understand anything about chip design and how 20 engineers will
work on the same chip and each has a section of the design that is so
insignificant, it isn't worth talking about."

Tom: Feel free to play games with my reputation any time you want to
see me excavate your past mistakes for public inspection. Yeah, I
like that. An eye for an eye and a baseless accusation for a past
blunder. Give yourself a pat on the head. Nobody else will.

Reminder: You won't improve your reputation by attempting to trash
someone else's reputation.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 9:03:38 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 06:44:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The problem lies with the educational system that allows total idiots like Liebermann to hang around for six years to avoid the draft and then pats him on the head and sends him out into the world a complete dunce to actually believes himself a genius when he couldn't even get a job in Silicon Valley as a technician let alone an engineer. Vacuum tubes my ass - if he could not design and program a complete integrated circuit design by the end of his first position he was less than a technician. That is why he had to start his own business catering to idiots that couldn't change their own inkjet printer cartridges. The only person with lower intellectual capacity than Krygowski here is Liebermann and yet they are both so in love with themselves that they have to brag about it to you.
> Baloney, lies and distortions. I guess Tom wants some more attention.
> I don't want to give him any attention. Well, maybe a little.
>
> How does one "program a complete integrated circuit"? Perhaps in
> VHDL, which you didn't even know the correct definition?
> (02/05/2021)
> VHDL
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/5Dzs6MuEgY0/m/gh_1kmHKBAAJ>
> "VHDL is very high density logic and if you are talking about Very
> High-level Design Language you say so and don't try to fool people
> with acronyms that are most commonly used for something else."
> VHDL is not Very High Density Logic. It's "Very High-Speed Integrated
> Circuit Hardware Description Language".
> That's totally wrong. Here's the correct description of VHDL.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHDL>

VHDL is the initialism for VHSIC Hardware Description Language
VHSIC is the initialism for Very High Speed Integrated Circuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_High_Speed_Integrated_Circuit_Program)
Therefore VHDL is the abbreviation for Very High Speed Integrated Circuit Hardware Description Language

I think you mistakenly left my response to toms claim that VHDL was Very High Density Logic in that snip.

>
> Or maybe you want to change your mind about having worked for Analog
> Devices?
> (02/11/2021)
> Worked at Analog Devices
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/_Y1MbXuzvNo/m/yzMUyoSvAgAJ>
> "I know that working at Analog Devices designing chips to you seems
> somehow [un]important but not to me then and not to me now. Since you
> don't understand anything about chip design and how 20 engineers will
> work on the same chip and each has a section of the design that is so
> insignificant, it isn't worth talking about."

He probably got an interview there once and was shown the exit when he claimed VHDL stands for Very High Density Logic

>
> Tom: Feel free to play games with my reputation any time you want to
> see me excavate your past mistakes for public inspection. Yeah, I
> like that. An eye for an eye and a baseless accusation for a past
> blunder. Give yourself a pat on the head. Nobody else will.
>
> Reminder: You won't improve your reputation by attempting to trash
> someone else's reputation.

His reputation was trash long before he ever darkened this forum

[sms]

On 12/8/2023 6:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> How does one "program a complete integrated circuit"? Perhaps in

"program a complete integrated circuit" Wow!

Is anyone as clueless as "he who must not be named?"

[sms]

On 12/6/2023 1:44 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> Well if your chain and cogs stay cleaner what does that mean? I cleaned my crossbike after the very muddy ride of last Sunday with just water (hosed it of at the carwash) and dried bike and chain and relubed my chain. Whole proces took me 30 minutes in total spread over a couple of intervals. Bike is still on the workstand I can post a picture of the relubed chain.

Different people care about different things when it comes to chain
maintenance.

Some people care only about having the cleanest chain on the outside,
and keeping their cogs as clean as possible.

Jobst explicitly addresses this: “The rate of wear is dependent
primarily on how clean the chain is internally rather than visible
external cleanliness that gets the most attention.”

Jobst advised cleaning the chain with a solvent like kerosene, removing
the solvent, then lubricating with a motorcycle chain, or chainsaw,
lubricant, and explicitly warns against paraffin, writing: “Paraffin
(canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not mobile and
cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been displaced. This
becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain. It immediately
squeaks.”


Some people care only about the lowest friction.


Some people care only about how fast they can clean and lubricate their
chain.


Some people care about how well their chain shifts. Mike Jacubowsky, a
bicycle shop owner that used to post on rec.bicycles.tech stated: "When

wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining
about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with
conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal."

Some people want to minimize the hassle of chain lubrication. The late
Sheldon Brown wrote: "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact

that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good
a lubricant as oil or grease."

Some people care only about how long their chain will last, and are
willing to spend a lot of time on chain cleaning and lubrication.


Personally, I have long used the Jobst approach, even before reading
what he wrote. I first clean the chain with a solvent, then I lubricate
the chain with either foaming chain lubricant for non-O-ring chains or
with chainsaw oil. What concept! Lubricating a chain with a lubricant
expressly designed for lubricating chains!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 18:43:09 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 9:03:38?PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 06:44:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >The problem lies with the educational system that allows total idiots like Liebermann to hang around for six years to avoid the draft and then pats him on the head and sends him out into the world a complete dunce to actually believes himself a genius when he couldn't even get a job in Silicon Valley as a technician let alone an engineer. Vacuum tubes my ass - if he could not design and program a complete integrated circuit design by the end of his first position he was less than a technician. That is why he had to start his own business catering to idiots that couldn't change their own inkjet printer cartridges. The only person with lower intellectual capacity than Krygowski here is Liebermann and yet they are both so in love with themselves that they have to brag about it to you.
>> Baloney, lies and distortions. I guess Tom wants some more attention.
>> I don't want to give him any attention. Well, maybe a little.
>>
>> How does one "program a complete integrated circuit"? Perhaps in
>> VHDL, which you didn't even know the correct definition?
>> (02/05/2021)
>> VHDL
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/5Dzs6MuEgY0/m/gh_1kmHKBAAJ>
>> "VHDL is very high density logic and if you are talking about Very
>> High-level Design Language you say so and don't try to fool people
>> with acronyms that are most commonly used for something else."
>> VHDL is not Very High Density Logic. It's "Very High-Speed Integrated
>> Circuit Hardware Description Language".
>> That's totally wrong. Here's the correct description of VHDL.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHDL>
>
>VHDL is the initialism for VHSIC Hardware Description Language
>VHSIC is the initialism for Very High Speed Integrated Circuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_High_Speed_Integrated_Circuit_Program)
>Therefore VHDL is the abbreviation for Very High Speed Integrated Circuit Hardware Description Language
>
>I think you mistakenly left my response to toms claim that VHDL was Very High Density Logic in that snip.

Well, not quite mistakenly. When I cite Tom's mistakes, I try to
avoid quoting the entire discussion, which usually includes
corrections. In this case, I thought that citing the Wikipedia
article would be sufficient to demonstrate that Tom was wrong and not
even close to the correct definition of VHDL. I also didn't want to
confuse things by mentioning that Tom's online resume does not include
any mention of VHDL experience or Analog Devices (ADI) employment:
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>

>> Or maybe you want to change your mind about having worked for Analog
>> Devices?
>> (02/11/2021)
>> Worked at Analog Devices
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/_Y1MbXuzvNo/m/yzMUyoSvAgAJ>
>> "I know that working at Analog Devices designing chips to you seems
>> somehow [un]important but not to me then and not to me now. Since you
>> don't understand anything about chip design and how 20 engineers will
>> work on the same chip and each has a section of the design that is so
>> insignificant, it isn't worth talking about."
>
>He probably got an interview there once and was shown the exit when he claimed VHDL stands for Very High Density Logic

Since Analog Devices does not appear on Tom's online resume, and ADI
acquired a number of major acquisitions (TI, Maxim, Linear Tech,
Hittite, etc), it will be rather difficult to deduce where in the SF
Bay area Tom worked as a chip designer. Maybe Tom can add the missing
dates and locations to his online resume? It might also be nice if he
would edit the resume (again) so that he's not working at Tality Corp
and Diablo (Clinical?) Research during the same 4 year time period.
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>

>> Tom: Feel free to play games with my reputation any time you want to
>> see me excavate your past mistakes for public inspection. Yeah, I
>> like that. An eye for an eye and a baseless accusation for a past
>> blunder. Give yourself a pat on the head. Nobody else will.
>>
>> Reminder: You won't improve your reputation by attempting to trash
>> someone else's reputation.
>
>His reputation was trash long before he ever darkened this forum

True. That's why I minimize responding to his personalized attacked
in RBT. I don't believe that Tom will ever change for the better.

[Lou Holtman]

Experts can be wrong. My own experience is more valuable. Waxed base lubricants developed over the years. A colleague of mine, a chemist and a cyclist, developed his own wax based lubricant and I was one of his tester. His waxed based lubricant went from horrible to excellent in a couple of iterations. The mobility ‘feature’ of oil as Jobst mentioned is at the same time the problem. It also moves the dirt into the innerts of the chain.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

Everyone makes their own decisions about who's advice to take. It
seems that there are many who, like me, ignore Krygowski's advice.

>I guess the teams and their mechanics now using paraffin based lubes on
>the chains of their European pro riders are not "experts."

I suspect they are not terribly concerned with how long their chains
will last.

[AMuzi]

In this, as everything else, people may agree on each of the
relevant facts and yet weigh various degrees of import to
each criterion. Which is fine.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 00:05:59 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

My current chain has been lubed with White Lightning since I first put
it on, but I don't like the wax buildup on it and the sprockets. It's
recommenced that I apply it every 50 miles. I only do it every two or
three rides (120-150 miles but the wax still gets thick and messy,
especially on the rear derailleur's sprockets. I believe I'll go back
to oil lube on my next chain. I have 3200 miles on this chain so I
should have around 2500 more miles to go before I'll need a new one.
The longer chain gets more miles.

[Lou Holtman]

Of coarse. Personally I want low friction, don’t want to take of the chain for cleaning, don’t want to use solvents to clean my chain, dont want to ‘cook’ or torch my chain, don’t want to chisel off muck of my guide pulleys and cogs, I don’t want to get greasy hands/clothes when I accidentally touch the chain. I don’t mind to lube my chain after a very wet and muddy ride and chain life is an outcome and costs are irrelevant. Ymmv.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

It's fine for people to have different priorities. But Mr. Scharf
persists in quoting decades-old theoretical opinions to tell us that
diligent modern scientific tests are wrong, and to claim that paraffin
wax based lubes cannot work.

Multiple testers have found they provide both the greatest efficiency
and the greatest chain life by far. This is now acknowledged by racing
professionals.

If he said "I just don't like it even though it works best," it would at
least be truthful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

So both of you make an argument from authority and neither
of you attempt to change criteria weighting.

What if a few seconds of oil/wipe are seen as insignificant
to some riders compared to a waxing process?

Or, conversely, what if 'no black gunk' is of prime
importance to another rider?

For every rider who holds long chain mileage (reduced wear)
as his goal, there's another guy who happily tosses them
away at low mileage for a new clean chain.

Neither of you are more right, or more wrong, than the
other. And neither of you have likely moved anyone's
opinion/decision.

[AMuzi]

Or pseudo-German bots. One never really knows.

[Frank Krygowski]

There's a fundamental difference between the "authority" of someone
telling what he visualizes, and the authority of hundreds of careful
laboratory measurements.

> What if a few seconds of oil/wipe are seen as insignificant to some
> riders compared to a waxing process?
>
> Or, conversely, what if 'no black gunk' is of prime importance to
> another rider?

All that is fine. I'm not disputing the fact that someone may have
different priorities. I'm disputing Scharf's unchanging decades-old
claims that chain lubricants based on paraffin wax cannot work.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I cannot figure Frank out. He simply doesn't ride enough to wear chains out very often so why would he worry about chain life and why would he believe that waxing increases mileage when proper application of it is such a pain-in-the-ass? While it is possible to clean all of the shipping lubricant off of a chain using some expense liquids and a mason jar it isn't nearly as good as using an ultrasonic cleaner. My guess is that Frank doesn't have one. And I would think that his idea of waxing is like Lou's - using a wax based liquid that has poor penetration and really doesn't extend the chain life enough to balance the additional life with the cost of the lubricant.

[Catrike Rider]

I don't think he made that claim, I believe what he really said is
that he didn't think that anyone still just uses pure paraffin with no
actual lubricant added.

If one wanted to refute that point they could go looking for someone
of consequence that " just uses pure paraffin with no actual lubricant
added."

But really, am I the only one here that doesn't think it makes a
significant difference as long as you keep the chain lubed? My White
Lightening lubed chain seems to be working as well as back when I used
oil-based lube.

[Catrike Rider]

I suspect he doesn't think it works best...

If Krygowski would just say "I understand that other people might have
a different opinion, it would at least make him be less of a
contentious jackass.

[sms]

On 12/9/2023 5:48 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> In this, as everything else, people may agree on each of the relevant
> facts and yet weigh various degrees of import to each criterion. Which
> is fine.

Exactly. What is sad is when someone picks out a single factor and then
proclaims that that factor is the most important to everyone.

A magazine can run a test, with six clean and freshly lubricated chains,
to "prove" which type of cleaning and lubrication is the best based
solely on the power loss for each, and you can be sure that "he who must
not be named" will proclaim that this means whatever he is doing is
obviously the best and that everyone else should express adoration for him.

And of course chain cleaning and lubrication is only one such example of
this behavior. You see this in many other bicycle and non-bicycle
related subjects. I.e. I once bought a car that I knew was less reliable
than a Toyota, expressly because of the performance and handling of that
vehicle. But I never tried to tell everyone else that they should do the
same thing because for many people reliability is the most important factor.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/10/2023 9:19 AM, sms wrote:
> On 12/9/2023 5:48 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> In this, as everything else, people may agree on each of the relevant
>> facts and yet weigh various degrees of import to each criterion. Which
>> is fine.
>
> Exactly. What is sad is when someone picks out a single factor and then
> proclaims that that factor is the most important to everyone.

For those interested in actual data instead of vague hand waving or
decades old opinions of "experts":

Here's an article from a few years ago about the most thorough tests of
chain efficiency up to that time:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/friction-facts-measuring-drivetrain-efficiency/

Those tests showed paraffin based chain lubes had the lowest friction
losses. That's why such lubes are now popular with many pro teams.

The article has links one can follow for more information. (I haven't
checked whether those links are still current.)

The most recent edition of _Bicycling_ magazine has this article.
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a40627435/the-right-chain-lube/
It's behind a paywall, for subscribers only. I bought the printed version.

Instead of efficiency, these tests measured wear life, including with
dirt, water, etc. added; but the author notes that longer wear life
correlates with increased efficiency. And that paraffin based chain
lubes produce the longest wear life.

All that corroborates a 1977 article that I've posted here many times
over the years. https://flic.kr/p/dkUGq6 and https://flic.kr/p/dkULS1
That test was much more "home made," done by just riding countless miles
and measuring wear with a micrometer. It's a "real world" test instead
of a laboratory test. But it too found paraffin based chain lubes gave
far longer wear life than any liquid lube the tester found.

So: Am I picking out a "single factor"? I don't think so. These results
indicate Factor #1 is Efficiency. Factor #2 is Chain Life, plus cassette
or cog life, plus chainring life. Factor #3 is actually the reason I
settled on paraffin wax based lubrication: The bike stays amazingly
cleaner.

Which, once again, does not mean anyone has to use this or any other
chain lube. Do what you like! I don't follow the procedures described
above. My method of wax application is probably not as good (although it
is very clean), but my method is much less trouble.

Again, do what you like! Some apparently really love dripping stuff on
their chain, then later scraping its black version off their bike, plus
solvent cleaning their chain in ultrasonic or other gizmos. Have fun!

But if you (like Scharf) are going to claim your method is measurably
"better," please bring data.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

But why is this so important to you?

[AMuzi]

Many if not most riders choose 'nothing'. No time,
attention, lubricant or even a passing thought.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm an engineer with a deep interest in the technical side of bicycling.
This is (purportedly) a bicycle technical discussion group. Chain care
is an issue with practical and technical significance for cyclists.

Why is it important to you to reflexively nag nearly every post I make?
Does your life really have so little meaning?

--
- Frank Krygowski