Regrettable

[Frank Krygowski]

I'd planned another mostly rural ride with a friend. He's from the other
side of the metro area and has been enjoying my showing him the many
country roads around here. But he injured his back (not while cycling)
so I was on my own.

I started on what should be an interesting ride, into the city center
then out in a different direction onto more rural roads, riding to a
couple libraries I've not yet ridden to.

I made it about five miles, going through a residential neighborhood,
when I was nailed hard by a dog. I've dealt with thousands of dogs in my
50+ years of riding. I've written articles about dogs vs. bikes, and I
was once quoted on the issue in _Bicycling_ magazine. This was my worst
dog encounter.

This dog gave absolutely no warning. It wasn't a bite attempt; it was a
full body impact, delivered silently at full sprint speed. The
neighborhood had small scale lots with plenty of shrubs for his lurking.
I didn't even see him until he was within five feet.

He hit the back side of my front tire. I'm sure I'd have gone down
anyway, but my front tire sucking in my front fender was a guarantee.
Two witnesses stopped to check on me, and they said the dog had fled
west on an intersecting street. They said they'd seen the dog running
loose many times.

Of course there's a leash law, and of course the dog warden told me by
phone that they'd look for the dog, but I'm not optimistic.

The fender is trashed and my saddle frame is bent, but the bike seems
otherwise OK. I did hit my head, and I'm sure that if I had been wearing
a helmet, it would have been smashed. But as it is, my cotton cycling
cap obviously saved my life!

This was my third moving on-road fall in over 50 years of avid adult
cycling in about a dozen countries. Regrettable.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Hopefully not too sore next day and don’t discover any thing else on bike
or body.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Sorry to hear that. Best wishes on healing (very different
than when we were young)
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Catrike Rider]

I assume you're writing something that you hope will get printed in
the local paper. Mustn't let an opportunity to see your name in print
go to waste. Maybe they'll send somebody out to interview you and get
a photo of your bent fender.

[Lou Holtman]

You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.

Lou

[Andre Jute]

> a photo of your bent fender..
>
Aw, come on, Catrike, at least the local dog box liner can't call Franki-boy a "scold" again for being put down by a dog.
>
For years when a dog threatened us, my family would say, "Do a Rexie on him, Dad." Rex was a prise-winning King Charles Spaniel so inbred that he was quite stupid. Since he was so stupid he was immune to my usual remedy for ill-mannered dogs of a hard stare which usually causes them to pause and take a step bag, and when I step towards turn tail and run, one day when the idiot dog came close to me to snarl at my ankles, I caught him in the mouth, hauled him into the air, and kicked him just once under the short ribs with a Harrow boot handlasted with my usual order of a double heavy leather sole, until he stopped trying to bite through my sheepskin pilot's gloves and looked straight into my eyes and after ten seconds started crying like a small puppy. Whenever he saw me after that, he'd roll over on his back and stick his legs in the air and start whining. He never bred again. His owner, a smart guy, rather than sue me and be made a fool of, together with his lawyer, if he could even get a lawyer to mess with me, on my suggestion bragged in a low bar he would normally not be seen dead in of how much he made out of this dog's breeding, and a gypsy in the bar obligingly stole it, and the owner collected on the insurance!
>
Here's a tip for you, Franki-boy. If you don't want a dog to put you down again, develop some personality. That, of course, is the difficult bit, especially for you, but, after you have some personality, it is not difficult to impress your personality on an animal as dumb as a dog, or a cat, or even a fox or a hedgehog -- my pets are a fox family which lives at the bottom of the orchard and a hedgehog family from behind the old stables.
>
Andre Jute
PS If you can't manage personality, Franki-boy, carry a piece of bacon in your pocket and dogs will love you instead of fearing you.

[Andre Jute]

+1
>
AJ
>

[John B.]

Hey! I've lived in foreign countries for 50 years, or more, and rode a
bicycle in many of them.

Can I get my name in the paper too?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

Don't be in such a hurry to read your own obituary, Slow Johnny.
>

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 19:52:16 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Frank Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/yq515TehOdo/m/inwa25KMBQAJ




I suspect the puppy came out to say "hello" and Krygoski, who
apparently fears and hates dogs, over reacted, jerked his bike around,
causing his foot to slip off the flat pedals, and making him hit the
poor critter.

I hope the puppy wasn't hurt.

My wife and I stopped for ice cream yesterday and in a shaded outdoor
seating area, we met, petted and scratched the ears of a delightful
rottweiler named "rocky" who belonged to another couple enjoying their
ice cream. He won't bite," the gentleman told us. "I know," I replied.
I can quickly and easily detirmine a dog's intentions, and Rocky was
obvioulsy looking for a meet and greet.

[Frank Krygowski]

I now understand why there are so few 70+ year old tackle football players.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Again, it's a dense old-style neighborhood. I'm assuming the dog was in
some shrubbery close to the road, and took off at full sprint speed. I
saw him only when he was about five feet away, moving full speed.

It was remarkable, in that I've never had such an experience, nor
anything close, in 50+ years. I could tell about some dog experiences I
did have, but of course I'd be accused by the resident jerks of making
them up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Much like deer running downhill and across country roads
from tree cover.

[Frank Krygowski]

I've had that experience on a bike as well, but instead of a country
road it was in a densely wooded metropark. I avoided the deer by the
hardest high-speed (~30 mph) braking I'd ever done on a bike.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Sorry to hear about a dog incident but we certainly could have done without the negative helmet comment. This could only mean that he moves quite slowly so that in a fall he has time to protect his head.

[Roger Meriman]

A friend of mine always recounts doing a endo to avoid a deer!

London Royal parks have lots of history including as royal hunting grounds
for deer, who most of year are quite chilled particularly the bucks, though
dog walkers do need to be wary of the does who can and will kill dogs if
the owner lets them get close to fawns.

But during the rut, the Red Deer are quite magnificent, and can be big
lumps, some being 500lb +

Essentially mate was riding in the autumn through and saw some bucks
fighting but a distance off so didn’t seem to be of concern, unfortunately
they strayed too close to one of the big 16+ pointers who chased them off,
across mates path which was fine as they where quite light, but the big boy
was too fast and wet tarmac isn’t really best for deer! So it fell/slid
across his path!

So he braked like his life depended on it, on to the front wheel, noticing
how huge the deers eyes look ed at close proximity! As the deer slid past
him into the undergrowth!

Apparently needed a wee sit down at work for a while!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Rottweilers are normally very calm dogs and not the running into people sort.

[AMuzi]

> Sorry to hear about a dog incident but we certainly could have done without the negative helmet comment. This could only mean that he moves quite slowly so that in a fall he has time to protect his head.

What negative?
He crashed, hit his head and lived.

Without the Magic Cotton Safety Cap he may well indeed have
died. It saved his life!

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 12:22:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/23/2023 12:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/23/2023 8:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 1:42:07?AM UTC+2, Frank

Had one of those a few weeks ago.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 13:13:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/23/2023 8:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Krygowski refuses to name this already well known "friend."

I worked with the guy. He used his solid model
animations of the gun mechanism to explain it to me while he was
designing it. The patent didn't involve that mechanism; it involved
other components and their innovative manufacturing. But the gun is
almost entirely his design.

Frank Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/Zu_BtGgv8Fs/m/qb4kFHF2BgAJ

[AMuzi]

And oh so much more in Florida!

https://nypost.com/2023/09/22/10-foot-alligator-caught-carrying-lifeless-floridian-down-a-canal/

[Roger Meriman]

It was an ironic dig I guess, personally in terms of crashes possibly due
to riding off road i tend to roll than put my hand out. Ie head impacts are
really quite rare I’ve only once done so admittedly that did give me a
brain injury! But even now and while I’m careful off road crashes do happen
tends to be hips and shoulders/ribs.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

..and they killed the gator.. he/she was only doing what came
naturally and the last I heard, they didn't even know if it had killed
the person.

There's a couple places along my usual ride where I see alligators.

A few years back when my wife would occasionally ride with me, we
watched some baby alligators grow up in a pond along the trail. We
stopped and watched all summer long as they got bigger and bigger and
fewer and fewer. When they're little, the big birds will get them.
When they get bigger, they get the birds..

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/23/2023 2:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Sorry to hear about a dog incident but we certainly could have done without the negative helmet comment. This could only mean that he moves quite slowly so that in a fall he has time to protect his head.

I'm sorry, I forgot the 11th commandment: "Thou shalt show no skepticism
regarding helmets."

Today I got a sort of email post card from two friends visiting Chicago.
The friend who wrote the email said that as they rode along, using bike
share bikes, some guy passed them and said "You forgot your helmets."

As if anyone who might possibly use a bike share should carry a helmet
with them at all times!

Helmet shamers are obnoxious nannies. They deserve pushback, in the name
of freedom of choice.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Hire bike or scooter and so on don’t work well with helmets, as it removes
the spontaneity aspect of it, and adds barriers.

Boris bikes, ie london hire bikes don’t require helmets and to the best of
my knowledge the risks are within normal range. Note that though not
mandatory most london commuters will be wearing helmets.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Condolences...I suffered a similar incident albeit over 20 years ago - a large dog darted out of a driveway when I was on a training ride - we were moving at a pretty good clip - I t-boned the dog and endoed, landing on my back, The front wheel taco'd. the dog took off yelping, I'm sure I cracked a few of it's ribs. When I finally made it home and inspected the bike, I found dog hairs embedded in between the tire and rim.

As far as regrettable - there really isn't anything to regret. It wasn't your fault, there wasn't anything you could have done different. Heal well!

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Shit stain doesn't need to worry about dogs attacking him because dogs merely sniff the pile and the leave their own mark.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Let me fix your typos:

I̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶u̶m̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶r̶i̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶h̶o̶p̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶n̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶p̶a̶p̶e̶r̶.̶ ̶M̶u̶s̶t̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶l̶e̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶o̶p̶p̶o̶r̶t̶u̶n̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶n̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶t̶e̶.̶ ̶M̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶s̶e̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶b̶o̶d̶y̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶v̶i̶e̶w̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶h̶o̶t̶o̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶b̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶f̶e̶n̶d̶e̶r̶.̶

DADDY DADDY LOOK AT ME DADDY LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

You can anticipate me chucking and tasting a cognac the next time you gat assaulted on a bike trail and get pistol whipped with your own gun.

[Tom Kunich]

Long ago in another galaxy far, far away I wrote the original study showing that helmets have no effect on deaths. Anyone that claims that they life was saved by a helmet is crazy. But I do not recommend the use of helmets because they will save your life but because the largest cause of injuries ranging from mild to very serious are one vehicle falls. While helmets will not save your life and may even cause your head to strike the ground due to their weight, they will minimize injuries in these much lesser accidents. I am especially interested in the Bontrager Wave Cell helmet since they are specifically designed to hold the deceleration in an accident below the level of concussion and the foam liners were designed to prevent skull fracture and hence offer no protection against concussion.

Because of my recommendation Krygowski has taken it upon himself to make anti-helmet comments where ever they can be shoe-horned in, He is a sick person with a sick mind and because he rides so slowly that he can normally put a foot down he believes that proves me wrong.

[Andre Jute]

The Alligator works for the Honored Society, carrying their enemies away to "sleep with the fishes". -- AJ
>

[Andre Jute]

Anyhow, while I recognise that not everyone on RBT is as handsome as I am, a helmet, especially one with a built-in visor, goes a fair way to avoid or minimise scars on your face. If the AHZ were ever to have plastic surgery, they'd suddenly lose their Zealotry and become the AHPS (anti-helmet pipsqueaks). -- AJ
>

[Tom Kunich]

I hear that the far left in Florida is attempting to pass gun control laws. I wonder what the average Floridian thinks of that. Perhaps they will send hit men after Flunky and Krygowski if we are half lucky. But being old they would probably screw up thinking from Flunky's claims that he would be winning a bicycle race.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/24/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> ... Krygowski has taken it upon himself to make anti-helmet comments where ever they can be shoe-horned in ...

If so, you should be able to provide many dozens of links to such
comments by me, just within the last month or two.

Please do provide some evidence of your nonsense charges!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Thanks. I just regret that it happened. You're correct in that there was
nothing I could have done. In fact, nobody riding in my place could have
done anything.

My closest experience to yours was probably 25 years ago, on a long fast
ride (140 mile, IIRC) with two friends. We were on a super-narrow
super-quiet rural road and violating the law by riding three abreast. I
was in the middle. A small dog, maybe 10" high at the shoulder, suddenly
ran out from a hidden position right in front of me. I had nowhere to go
but up, so I jumped the dog. My rear wheel didn't quite clear him, and
it seemed to break his shoulder. One front leg was disabled, and he was
squealing and scooting circles, pivoting around that front shoulder on
the road. We woke the young guy living at the house. He seemed very
unconcerned.

BTW, jumping a bike is a valuable skill. I used it last week to jump an
unmarked, badly filled trench across a road on a downhill. My buddy hit
it and cursed pretty loudly.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2023 04:44:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 8:34:52?AM UTC-4, shit stain wrote:

"Shit Stain"???

You mean the guy named for a bag? See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jute
In part, "Jute is a relatively cheap and versatile fiber and has a
wide variety of uses in cordage and cloth. It is commonly used to make
burlap sacks."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Life is random. I have also jumped them but then again I got
my steel wrist from a utility trench across the lane.

[sms]

On 9/23/2023 7:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.

That's essentially the key issue where the whole AHZ narrative breaks
down. You can ride very carefully but you can't anticipate a driver
running a red light, a dog chasing you or a dog running in front of you
to investigate another dog (this is what caused my last fall), a
low-hanging branch (except in Ohio), or a number of other things that
can cause a fall that results in a head-impact crash.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:41:21 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> BTW, jumping a bike is a valuable skill. I used it last week to jump an
> unmarked, badly filled trench across a road on a downhill.

> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Put your brains, such as they are, in gear before you make stupid comments, Franki-boy. The last thing you want to do on a "discussion" group of senior citizens for whom a broken hip will very likely end their cycling days, and perhaps kill them before their time, is to advise them to jump their bicycles over obstacles. This is a poor show from someone who pretends to be "a spokesman for bicycles".
>
Andre Jute
has authorised this message in on behalf of Common Sense.
>

[Tom Kunich]

Frank was at the front of the Stupid 4 telling everyone that obviously I couldn't ride because I couldn't see into dark shadows and see a pothole, thereby breaking a spoke. But his jumping a 30 lb bicycle over a trench is brilliant.

[AMuzi]

On 9/25/2023 9:40 AM, sms wrote:
> On 9/23/2023 7:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.
>
> That's essentially the key issue where the whole AHZ
> narrative breaks down. You can ride very carefully but you
> can't anticipate a driver running a red light, a dog chasing
> you or a dog running in front of you to investigate another
> dog (this is what caused my last fall), a low-hanging branch
> (except in Ohio), or a number of other things that can cause
> a fall that results in a head-impact crash.
>

And yet, with his Magic Cotton Safety Headgear, he lived.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank has criticized helmets every chance he gets. If he doesn't like to wear a helmet that is his personal choice. But pretending that he is some sort of authority makes him nothing less than an ass. I have PUBLISHED studies and serious injuries to back up my claims about helmets. I have no need to pretend that I am an expert in the matter. Frank falls at slow speed and doesn't hit his head and that nullifies the value of a helmet in precisely that sort of accident? Let's say that Krygowski suddenly stops posting and it turns out that he made one of these minor falls, gained a concussion and can no longer make any decisions because he is having constant seizures like I was having. I WAS wearing a helmet which no doubt saved me from a broken skull but because of the incorrect standards had no effect on concussions. I was traveling only about 5 mph. So are you willing to risk your consciousness because you don't like the look and feel of a helmet? We know that they don't work in auto collisions. But we also know that they absolutely do work in the sort of accident that Krygowski just had. Because he didn't hit his head this time is absolutely no guarantee that he won't next time.

So it is a little foolish to act as if he doesn't need one because he doesn't like them. But it is HIS decision. My only complaints is that his making anti-helmet comments is entirely out of place.

[Andre Jute]

Nah, the AHZ make themselves ridiculous well before that point by their transparent junior-high debating trick of trying to make out that the only case they have to answer is that cycling helmets serve the single purpose of preventing cyclists from being killed. A better design and material of helmet may yet do that without too much of a weight penalty, but meanwhile the available cycling helmets, if sensibly chosen to have a visor or some other structure ahead of the forehead, do a good job of keeping a cyclist's face away from road rash. Plastic surgery hurts, so thirty bucks for a helmet to avoid or reduce the pan seems a good deal, and screw the bee in Franki-boy's bonnet. Krygowski rides too slowly to need a helmet, of course, as that Ohio dog just proved, so he should be howled down because he clearly isn't an expert in anything, except falling off his bike, and even for that he needed the assistance of a dumb animal.
>
Andre Jute
Mind you, America is the only place on earth where I found hard and extremely credible evidence for a mandatory bicycle helmet edict being a beneficial thing for cyclists.
>

[Andre Jute]

Great minds think alike. Immediately I posted my few words above, I saw that Tom had picked up the same point. -- AJ
>

[Frank Krygowski]

Got a link to my post, Tom?

Nobody here believes your "memory."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/25/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/25/2023 9:40 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 9/23/2023 7:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.
>>
>> That's essentially the key issue where the whole AHZ narrative breaks
>> down. You can ride very carefully but you can't anticipate a driver
>> running a red light, a dog chasing you or a dog running in front of
>> you to investigate another dog (this is what caused my last fall), a

>> low-hanging branch (except in Ohio)...

I'm still waiting for the photos of all the deadly tree branches hanging
within six feet of the roadway in your town, Stephen. Have you somehow
failed to find examples?

>> ... or a number of other things that

>> can cause a fall that results in a head-impact crash.

... um, for some minuscule value of "_can_ cause." Try to keep in mind
that people walking have far greater serious brain injury counts than
cyclists. They're even greater per mile traveled. IOW, things that
actually _do_ cause head impact crashes happen to walkers much more than
cyclists.

And yet, there are so few efforts to save the noggins of walkers! Why,
oh why?

> And yet, with his Magic Cotton Safety Headgear, he lived.

Yep. The large crew that accepts every scratched or dented helmet as
proof of a life saved really should accept my slightly dirtied cycling
cap in the same way.

(BTW, the originator of that point was Guy Chapman, who frequently
posted here about how his "wooly cap" had saved his life. I miss Guy!)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/25/2023 12:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Frank has criticized helmets every chance he gets.

Bullshit. I read here and usually post here every day. "Every chance I
get" would be daily. I haven't raised the issue in months.

> I WAS wearing a helmet which no doubt saved me from a broken skull ...

Oh, no doubt! And my cap no doubt saved me from a broken skull, too, by
precisely the same "logic"!

> So it is a little foolish to act as if he doesn't need one because he doesn't like them. But it is HIS decision. My only complaints is that his making anti-helmet comments is entirely out of place.

But making pro-helmet comments is perfectly fine? What a nanny.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 9/23/2023 7:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.
>
> That's essentially the key issue where the whole AHZ narrative breaks
> down. You can ride very carefully but you can't anticipate a driver
> running a red light, a dog chasing you or a dog running in front of you
> to investigate another dog (this is what caused my last fall), a
> low-hanging branch (except in Ohio), or a number of other things that
> can cause a fall that results in a head-impact crash.
>

I’m not following the logic here? That folks might have crashed on bikes be
they helmet or no helmets can’t imagine being any difference.

And do folks really hit their head with most crashes? I certainly don’t
hips is most common impact point and shoulders.

Take cars out of the equation and the risks drop dramatically, and the idea
that a helmet will protect in such a situation? Really not happening.

In pro sport much like most sports cycling and road cycling in particular
needs to do better, see Stefan Küng being allowed to compete with a
significant head injury.

Not the only sport by any means but the nature of brain injuries is that
the sport player are highly unlikely to want to stop that decision needs to
be made by others who have capacity.

Note for example rugby players who played on in match’s they can’t remember
rugby does to its credit have protocols at least in the professional game.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

It is most uncommon for people to hit their heads with any force. It is instinctive to protect your head. But the chances of a severe injury if you DO hit your head and the sheer commonness of falling on a bike just make using a helmet good sense. Being killed in a traffic accident is VERY rare (3% of all traffic deaths) and inevitably to beginning cyclists. So there's no reason to make helmets mandatory. But there's plenty of reason to protect yourself.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/25/2023 3:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> But the chances of a severe injury if you DO hit your head and the sheer commonness of falling on a bike just make using a helmet good sense.

I don't know about how often Tom crashes, but my "sheer commonness" has
been three moving on-road falls in 50+ years of avid adult riding. I
fell more when I used to do adventurous mountain biking, but I never hit
my head.

And looking at fatal brain injuries (since those stats are most
precise), there are only about 400 bike TBI fatalities in a typical year.

By contrast: from
https://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html

“There were over 69,000 TBI-related deaths in the United States in
2021.3 That’s about 190 TBI-related deaths every day.”

or from
https://stokesstemle.com/blog/how-common-are-traumatic-brain-injuries-after-car-accidents/

"Traumatic brain injuries are extremely common in the United States.
Information from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
indicates there were roughly 61,000 TBI-related deaths nationwide in the
recently reported year.

"Additional research from the CDC shows car accidents are among the most
common causes of TBIs. The CDC’s latest Surveillance Report on TBIs
shows motor-vehicle accidents were the cause of about 25 percent of all
brain injuries for the data year."

So the total TBI fatality count is uncertain. Using the lower estimate,
that would be over 15,000 motorist TBI fatalities. Cyclists are just 3%
of that. And cyclists are about 0.6% of the total TBI fatalities.

Not particularly common! When, oh when, will we get helmets on the other
99% of the victims?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 07:50:55 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'd have to see Krygowski actually do it before I believed he could
get both wheels off the ground at the same time.

[AMuzi]

It's not that hard for a foot of utility trench. A set of
railroad tracks is a bit much at our age. And neither with a
tricycle!

[Catrike Rider]

When, oh when, will everybody just get their noses out of everybody
else's bycycling preferences and mind their own business.

[Catrike Rider]

I can get any one wheel off the ground pretty easily, I think I could
get one front wheel and the back wheel off at the same time.. although
it could lead to some road rash, so I don't think I want to try...

[Roger Meriman]

Both sides can get somewhat evangelical!

Though it’s in some places and for some people government mandated which as
Tom notes doesn’t population wise have merit.

And I’d argue that in general barriers to cycling or any form of exercise
or personal mobility should be avoided unless necessary.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

What Frank ignores is the CDC statement that:

"Each year, nearly 1,000 persons die from injuries caused by bicycle
crashes, and 550,000 persons are treated in emergency departments for
injuries related to bicycle riding. Approximately 6% of the bicycle
riders treated in emergency departments require hospitalization. Head
injuries account for 62% of bicycle-related deaths, for 33% of
bicycle-related emergency department visits, and for 67% of
bicycle-related hospital admissions. "
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00036941.htm

But, really, what is the hoopalla about a helmet? As I've mentioned, I
remember when "hard hats" were made mandatory for guys working on "the
floor" of an oil drilling rig. Nobody threw a tantrum about it. In
fact the first hard hats were aluminum and guys sort of competed about
the scenes and figures then they had embossed on the aluminum shell.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

> Both sides can get somewhat evangelical!

On the big helmet issue, only one side has ever made its choice
mandatory, or even tried to.

> Though it’s in some places and for some people government mandated which as
> Tom notes doesn’t population wise have merit.
>
> And I’d argue that in general barriers to cycling or any form of exercise
> or personal mobility should be avoided unless necessary.

Agreed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

No, John, I don't ignore that. Instead, I put it in context.

The U.S. is a big country. All numbers are big. Is "nearly 1000" deaths
cause for scaring people away from cycling, or convincing them to buy
ineffective protective measures? Then why is the same logic not applied
to the 6500+ pedestrians who die each year, or the ~40,000 motorist
fatalities?

Even accepting your 62% TBI (which is far more than the ~45% found in
The Centers for Disease Control & Prevention, in Victor G. Coronado et.
al., "Surveillance for Traumatic Brain Injury Related Deaths, United
States, 1997-2007" Surveillance Summaries May 6, 2011 / 60(SS05); 1-32),
the number of bike TBI fatalities comes nowhere near the 15,000 motorist
fatalities.

> But, really, what is the hoopalla about a helmet? As I've mentioned, I
> remember when "hard hats" were made mandatory for guys working on "the
> floor" of an oil drilling rig. Nobody threw a tantrum about it. In
> fact the first hard hats were aluminum and guys sort of competed about
> the scenes and figures then they had embossed on the aluminum shell.

Based on your weak logic, you really should wear a helmet each time you
ride in a motor vehicle. To use your words, don't "throw a tantrum about
it." Do it!

If you can't be logical, at least be consistent.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 9/25/2023 10:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/25/2023 9:40 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 9/23/2023 7:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.
>>
>> That's essentially the key issue where the whole AHZ narrative breaks
>> down. You can ride very carefully but you can't anticipate a driver
>> running a red light, a dog chasing you or a dog running in front of
>> you to investigate another dog (this is what caused my last fall), a
>> low-hanging branch (except in Ohio), or a number of other things that
>> can cause a fall that results in a head-impact crash.
>>
>
> And yet, with his Magic Cotton Safety Headgear, he lived.

Yes, and that feeds into the false narrative. "I fell and hit my head
while not wearing a helmet and that proves that helmets are worthless."
Sadly, that is often not the result in head-impact crash.

[Tim R]

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 8:41:21 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> BTW, jumping a bike is a valuable skill. I used it last week to jump an
> unmarked, badly filled trench across a road on a downhill. My buddy hit
> it and cursed pretty loudly.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Maybe I did that when I was a kid, can't remember back that far. Now past 70, it's a skill I don't intend to practice.

But I'm curious. Do you need to be locked into pedals to do it? I can see pulling up the front wheel (with some warning - my last fall was a sommersault over the front wheel by braking too hard, I was astonished by how close the balance point was to the front tire footprint at that moment) but how does that back wheel come up? Or are your legs strong enough to power you into the air directly?

[sms]

On 9/25/2023 8:07 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> What Frank ignores is the CDC statement that:
>
> "Each year, nearly 1,000 persons die from injuries caused by bicycle
> crashes, and 550,000 persons are treated in emergency departments for
> injuries related to bicycle riding. Approximately 6% of the bicycle
> riders treated in emergency departments require hospitalization. Head
> injuries account for 62% of bicycle-related deaths, for 33% of
> bicycle-related emergency department visits, and for 67% of
> bicycle-related hospital admissions. "
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00036941.htm

What those statistics can't show is the number of people that don't end
up in the ER at all because they were wearing a helmet.

> But, really, what is the hoopalla about a helmet? As I've mentioned, I
> remember when "hard hats" were made mandatory for guys working on "the
> floor" of an oil drilling rig. Nobody threw a tantrum about it. In
> fact the first hard hats were aluminum and guys sort of competed about
> the scenes and figures then they had embossed on the aluminum shell.

It's a lot of manufactured antagonism from those that have a lack
critical thinking and analysis skills and that will always find an
excuse to ignore the data and to ignore the statements by experts. There
is a long list of excuses that they endlessly repeat.

While I don't think there should be a mandatory helmet law, at least for
adults, there is zero evidence that such laws have any reduction in
cycling numbers. In some countries without any such laws cycling numbers
have plunged, and in some countries with such laws cycling numbers have
increased.

[AMuzi]

On 9/26/2023 6:52 AM, sms wrote:
> On 9/25/2023 10:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/25/2023 9:40 AM, sms wrote:
>>> On 9/23/2023 7:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.
>>>
>>> That's essentially the key issue where the whole AHZ
>>> narrative breaks down. You can ride very carefully but
>>> you can't anticipate a driver running a red light, a dog
>>> chasing you or a dog running in front of you to
>>> investigate another dog (this is what caused my last
>>> fall), a low-hanging branch (except in Ohio), or a number
>>> of other things that can cause a fall that results in a
>>> head-impact crash.
>>>
>>
>> And yet, with his Magic Cotton Safety Headgear, he lived.
>
> Yes, and that feeds into the false narrative. "I fell and
> hit my head while not wearing a helmet and that proves that
> helmets are worthless." Sadly, that is often not the result
> in head-impact crash.
>

Goes both ways.

We're often told that, "I fell, helmeted, and still live!"
'proves' the value of helmets

[Roger Meriman]

Considering the size of American population and how car centric it is seems
about right or rather a5 the level you’d expect.

Realistically helmets are the last thing to be done, as is noted by Chris
Boardman of TDF and Olympic fame and then broadcaster, and now campaigner
notes.

>> But, really, what is the hoopalla about a helmet? As I've mentioned, I
>> remember when "hard hats" were made mandatory for guys working on "the
>> floor" of an oil drilling rig. Nobody threw a tantrum about it. In
>> fact the first hard hats were aluminum and guys sort of competed about
>> the scenes and figures then they had embossed on the aluminum shell.
>
> Based on your weak logic, you really should wear a helmet each time you
> ride in a motor vehicle. To use your words, don't "throw a tantrum about
> it." Do it!
>
> If you can't be logical, at least be consistent.
>
>

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Has he claimed it or this been made up/misread by folks wanting to have a
go?

Getting both wheels off if momentarily isn’t difficult speed bump if your
no jumper, and pull gently on the bars will do it. Or something bigger such
as a drop off at which point wheels off is easy it’s just landing or at
least well!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 05:04:07 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's pretty easy to lift up the front wheel. Lifting the back wheel
takes a modest amount of know-how, but after learning to do that well,
getting both wheels off the ground is mostly about timing.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 07:23:50 -0500, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 9/25/2023 8:07 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> What Frank ignores is the CDC statement that:
>>
>> "Each year, nearly 1,000 persons die from injuries caused by bicycle
>> crashes, and 550,000 persons are treated in emergency departments for
>> injuries related to bicycle riding. Approximately 6% of the bicycle
>> riders treated in emergency departments require hospitalization. Head
>> injuries account for 62% of bicycle-related deaths, for 33% of
>> bicycle-related emergency department visits, and for 67% of
>> bicycle-related hospital admissions. "
>> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00036941.htm
>
>What those statistics can't show is the number of people that don't end
>up in the ER at all because they were wearing a helmet.
>
>> But, really, what is the hoopalla about a helmet? As I've mentioned, I
>> remember when "hard hats" were made mandatory for guys working on "the
>> floor" of an oil drilling rig. Nobody threw a tantrum about it. In
>> fact the first hard hats were aluminum and guys sort of competed about
>> the scenes and figures then they had embossed on the aluminum shell.
>
>It's a lot of manufactured antagonism from those that have a lack
>critical thinking and analysis skills and that will always find an
>excuse to ignore the data and to ignore the statements by experts. There
>is a long list of excuses that they endlessly repeat.

There's also a lot of group thinking fools mascarading as experts.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:42:10 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

I think the term "jump" means to get both wheels off the ground at the
sae time. Doing it one wheel at a time is child's play...

[Roger Meriman]

Assuming you have a ramp be that say speed bump and use a wee bit of motion
on the bike getting two wheels off is easy enough or drop offs where by
it’s nature both wheels will leave the ground.

And for drop off the worse thing folks do is to panic and slow so the front
wheel drops and they can endo/go over the bars.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Okay reading back it’s some roadworks trench, and his companion rode though
with out issue so maybe he jumped a bit, can’t say I’ve ever found jumping
useful bar MTB trails.

My “road” bikes are a Gravel bike and an old MTB both of which will roll
though potholes and what not than will pinch flat a 23/25mm etc tire
without issue.

Reading the road has always served me well, and what you learn quickly off
road particularly if like myself started pre suspension!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:05:23 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 12:42:10 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 07:50:55 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:41:21?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, jumping a bike is a valuable skill. I used it last week to jump an
>>>>>> unmarked, badly filled trench across a road on a downhill.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>> Put your brains, such as they are, in gear before you make stupid
>>>>> comments, Franki-boy. The last thing you want to do on a "discussion"
>>>>> group of senior citizens for whom a broken hip will very likely end
>>>>> their cycling days, and perhaps kill them before their time, is to
>>>>> advise them to jump their bicycles over obstacles. This is a poor show
>>>>> from someone who pretends to be "a spokesman for bicycles".
>>>>>>
>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>> has authorised this message in on behalf of Common Sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd have to see Krygowski actually do it before I believed he could
>>>> get both wheels off the ground at the same time.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Has he claimed it or this been made up/misread by folks wanting to have a
>>> go?
>>>

>>> Getting both wheels off if momentarily isn?t difficult speed bump if your

>>> no jumper, and pull gently on the bars will do it. Or something bigger such

>>> as a drop off at which point wheels off is easy it?s just landing or at

>>> least well!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I think the term "jump" means to get both wheels off the ground at the
>> sae time. Doing it one wheel at a time is child's play...
>>
>
>Assuming you have a ramp be that say speed bump and use a wee bit of motion
>on the bike getting two wheels off is easy enough or drop offs where by
>it’s nature both wheels will leave the ground.

No ramps..

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:24:31 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

A short obstical in the road can be dealt with by first hopping the
front wheel over it, then lifting the back wheel. In fact, just
dropping the front wheel back down hard can actually lift the rear
wheel.

[Tom Kunich]

While that is a concern because it leads to the idea that "I have a helmet so I am safe" it is still probably preferable to needing one to prevent semi-serious injuries without one.

[Roger Meriman]

With both the gravel and old MTB lighten the load ie absorb the impact with
arms/legs and just ride though, after all I ride over all sorts of things
off road, no need to lift the wheel unless the bike really can’t roll over
it.

Flat edged high kerb for example, I’d loose some speed before bumping over,
generally to prevent rim impact though perfectly rideable, the MTB proper
isn’t remotely bothered as large tire volume and suspension and what not.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On 9/26/2023 8:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 5:40:13 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/26/2023 6:52 AM, sms wrote:
>>> On 9/25/2023 10:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/25/2023 9:40 AM, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 9/23/2023 7:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You were not able to anticipate on that? Remarkable.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's essentially the key issue where the whole AHZ
>>>>> narrative breaks down. You can ride very carefully but
>>>>> you can't anticipate a driver running a red light, a dog
>>>>> chasing you or a dog running in front of you to
>>>>> investigate another dog (this is what caused my last
>>>>> fall), a low-hanging branch (except in Ohio), or a number
>>>>> of other things that can cause a fall that results in a
>>>>> head-impact crash.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And yet, with his Magic Cotton Safety Headgear, he lived.
>>>
>>> Yes, and that feeds into the false narrative. "I fell and
>>> hit my head while not wearing a helmet and that proves that
>>> helmets are worthless." Sadly, that is often not the result
>>> in head-impact crash.
>>>
>> Goes both ways.
>>
>> We're often told that, "I fell, helmeted, and still live!"
>> 'proves' the value of helmets

> While that is a concern because it leads to the idea that "I have a helmet so I am safe" it is still probably preferable to needing one to prevent semi-serious injuries without one.

I agree with you.
Helmets obviously do something. They just as obviously don't
do everything.

Hence personal evaluation.

[Tom Kunich]

One of the magazines just had an article on the 5 best helmets. I didn't get beyond the 1st best helmet since it was the Bontrager Wavecell helmet that I have been recommending here only to the joy of the argumentative 4. In a perfect world you wouldn't need a helmet but then in a perfect world there wouldn't be pinecones or broken asphalt on the road to cause people to fall.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/26/2023 8:23 AM, sms wrote:
> On 9/25/2023 8:07 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> What Frank ignores is the CDC statement that:
>>
>> "Each year, nearly 1,000 persons die from injuries caused by bicycle
>> crashes, and 550,000 persons are treated in emergency departments for
>> injuries related to bicycle riding. Approximately 6% of the bicycle
>> riders treated in emergency departments require hospitalization. Head
>> injuries account for 62% of bicycle-related deaths, for 33% of
>> bicycle-related emergency department visits, and for 67% of
>> bicycle-related hospital admissions. "
>> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00036941.htm
>
> What those statistics can't show is the number of people that don't end
> up in the ER at all because they were wearing a helmet.

Bullshit. Several studies have shown that helmeted cyclists are more
likely to show up at ER. In the badly done "case-control" study that
launched the helmet mania, about 21% of cyclists presenting to ER had
helmets. On-street surveys at the time showed just 3% of cyclists wore
helmets. Other studies showed lower margins, but still greater ER
presentations among those wearing helmets.

There's lots of summarized data in an article that popped up today:

https://www.rwcpulse.com/blogs/peeking-at-plans/bike-helmets-01-7533472

> While I don't think there should be a mandatory helmet law, at least for
> adults, there is zero evidence that such laws have any reduction in
> cycling numbers.

Baloney, and really illogical. It's obvious that some people will not
ride, and others will ride less, if forced to wear a helmet. How would
that be countered? Where are the people who would say "I never ride a
bike, but now that I'm forced to wear a garish styrofoam cap, I'm going
to begin riding!"?

Besides that, _all_ mandatory helmet laws are promoted by trumpeting
mythical huge dangers of a simple bike ride. That has to have a bad
effect on cycling.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

For most of my riding I use old style toe clips and straps; so my feet
are attached to my pedals, but not really locked in. The straps are at
most moderately tight.

It turns out that for me, that's sufficient for jumping. I learned the
skill in the 1970s, partly because one route to work had some nasty
railroad tracks. It's done by pushing my torso suddenly upward with both
arms and legs (ideally starting from a crouched position) then pulling
the bike upward with both arms and legs. But take care to keep the
steering pointed straight! You want a straight landing.

I haven't tried to jump a railroad track for a long time, but for years
it was a regular event on my ride to and from work. I did it even with a
briefcase on the rear carrier.

It's possible without toe clips or clipless pedals. I can do it a bit,
but not as well as with toe clips; and I'd bet YouTube has instructions.

I _think_ the physics goes like this: You pop your torso up, then pull
up to lift just the front wheel. This raises the bike center of mass.
Then while your body is still elevated, you quickly push down on the
bars as you contract your legs to take force off the pedals. The bike
rotates around its center of mass, so while the front wheel is dropping,
the rear wheel is rising.

At least that's how it feels to me. I think the same physics applies,
more or less, to jumping a skateboard.

Maybe someone will dig through YouTube and find instructions.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/26/2023 9:24 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
> Okay reading back it’s some roadworks trench, and his companion rode though
> with out issue so maybe he jumped a bit, can’t say I’ve ever found jumping
> useful bar MTB trails.

I've jumped one small dog, countless potholes, quite a few transverse
road trenches (badly filled), occasional railroad tracks, many parking
lot speed bumps, some curbs, etc.

That's all with a road or touring bike. I can't jump the touring bike
with a full load, nor the tandem.

It's not an essential skill; but for me, it's been worth knowing.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjyvGLqNtLI

[Frank Krygowski]

OK. I notice he said something about no need to pull up on the pedals,
but he is clipped in, so I'm skeptical. I think it really helps.

Here's one showing lots more detail. I don't have time now to watch it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI8PtGXhFb0

But I do remember better success with flat pedal hopping when I tried
pointing my toes down and sort of clawing backwards on the pedals with
my feet, whether she agrees or not.

I think with lots of athletic moves, what a person _thinks_ they are
doing may not perfectly jibe with what they are actually doing. A
classic is the frequent cyclist claim that they always pull up on the
back pedals. The discrepancy may not matter if what they _think_ they're
doing gets the job done.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 8:04:10 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 8:41:21 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > BTW, jumping a bike is a valuable skill. I used it last week to jump an
> > unmarked, badly filled trench across a road on a downhill. My buddy hit
> > it and cursed pretty loudly.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Maybe I did that when I was a kid, can't remember back that far. Now past 70, it's a skill I don't intend to practice.
>
> But I'm curious. Do you need to be locked into pedals to do it?

nope - https://www.diymountainbike.com/jump-mountain-bike-flat-pedals/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f-91HEKdQI

Not too hard to translate to road bike, but not for the squeamish.

[Roger Meriman]

Probably type of bikes one grew up and still use, for myself bar
occasionally fallen trees I have no need to jump obstacles, and my default
is to ride over stuff as both the bike and rider are capable of doing so.

Roger Merriman