Industry tandards

[AMuzi]

Since 700-D utterly failed 30 years ago, we've seen basic
26" 559 and 700-C 622 formats overridden by new '27.5' 26"
584 and '29' 700 622 Fat. But hey, more's the merrier!
Since standards are good we ought to have a lot of them!

https://bikerumor.com/new-bicycle-wheel-size-moots-prototype-750d-wheels-tires-wtb/

Actual rim size? 660mm (!) larger than the classic 28"
Roadster (635mm) size.

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/moots-routt-crdd-750d-gallery/

--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

[Roger Meriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Since 700-D utterly failed 30 years ago, we've seen basic
> 26" 559 and 700-C 622 formats overridden by new '27.5' 26"
> 584 and '29' 700 622 Fat. But hey, more's the merrier!
> Since standards are good we ought to have a lot of them!
>
> https://bikerumor.com/new-bicycle-wheel-size-moots-prototype-750d-wheels-tires-wtb/
>
> Actual rim size? 660mm (!) larger than the classic 28"
> Roadster (635mm) size.
>
> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/moots-routt-crdd-750d-gallery/
>

If you go to “more wheel sizes thread” I linked to WTB being interviewed by
Ben Delaney as to why and what they are doing, seems to be focusing on the
gravel racers who I’m sure it would be faster for example on something like
unbound.

Not convinced that uk hack about the woods and so on and frankly my gravel
bike is few year old and hasn’t the clearances I’d like so if I did buy a
new Gravel bike I’d be more interested in large clearances over larger
wheels per say.

But I’m fairly woefully at predicting and they (WTB) do apparently get 29er
right. So who knows.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Moots entire success has been keeping their doors open. So I wouldn't think that they could succeed in making a new tire size standard. I have trouble lifting my leg over the saddle the way it is and I'm 6'4".

[Roger Meriman]

It’s more WTB who have made the prototypes and new machines apparently.

https://youtu.be/XDY_-wFx_gY?si=FKCaMPbvpaaeq4Ag

Moots frame will have been made but this looks like WTB lead, and they are
clearly talking to others in the industry.

Roger Merriman

[pH]

On 2023-08-31, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Since 700-D utterly failed 30 years ago, we've seen basic
> 26" 559 and 700-C 622 formats overridden by new '27.5' 26"
> 584 and '29' 700 622 Fat. But hey, more's the merrier!
> Since standards are good we ought to have a lot of them!
>
> https://bikerumor.com/new-bicycle-wheel-size-moots-prototype-750d-wheels-tires-wtb/
>
> Actual rim size? 660mm (!) larger than the classic 28"
> Roadster (635mm) size.
>
> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/moots-routt-crdd-750d-gallery/
>

God, of course, would have preferred that we stick with His (and my)
favourite....27" (Is that 630 or 632mm).

I feel sorry for the bike shops having to keep all those myriad sizes in
stock.

pH

[Andre Jute]

Basically they don't stock all those sizes. They keep the popular sizes and, if you're lucky, will order other sizes for you on request. -- Andre Jute
>

[Andre Jute]

PS 700C at 622mm and 26in at 559mm, both mentioned by Andrew with the implication that they're old-fashioned or at least in danger of being displaced by new "standards", are the only ones I remember. The rest I can look up or ask about. -- AJ
>

[Andre Jute]

PPS Hmm. The reason I remember those two is that I invariably ride on bikes with mudguards, what Americans call "fenders". My fave mudguard maker is SKS, whose P65 I like, and which is essential if your tyres are 60mm wide Big Apples. If you insist on being an unpaid beta-tester for the newest fave of the fashion victims in wheel sizes, a wet bum comes with the package, no extra cost. That's not me. -- AJ
>

[AMuzi]

SKS covers darned near everything.
Click the right-arrow top right of your screen here:

https://www.sks-germany.com/en/productcategories/mudguards/

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 18:00:16 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/3/2023 4:31 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

>> On Sunday, September 3, 2023 at 10:25:05?PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 3, 2023 at 10:19:21?PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:

>>>> On Sunday, September 3, 2023 at 6:44:44?PM UTC+1, pH wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-08-31, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Since 700-D utterly failed 30 years ago, we've seen basic
>>>>>> 26" 559 and 700-C 622 formats overridden by new '27.5' 26"
>>>>>> 584 and '29' 700 622 Fat. But hey, more's the merrier!
>>>>>> Since standards are good we ought to have a lot of them!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bikerumor.com/new-bicycle-wheel-size-moots-prototype-750d-wheels-tires-wtb/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actual rim size? 660mm (!) larger than the classic 28"
>>>>>> Roadster (635mm) size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/moots-routt-crdd-750d-gallery/
>>>>>>
>>>>> God, of course, would have preferred that we stick with His (and my)
>>>>> favourite....27" (Is that 630 or 632mm).
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel sorry for the bike shops having to keep all those myriad sizes in
>>>>> stock.
>>>>>
>>>>> pH
>>>>>
>>>> Basically they don't stock all those sizes. They keep the popular sizes and, if you're lucky, will order other sizes for you on request. -- Andre Jute
>>>>>
>>> PS 700C at 622mm and 26in at 559mm, both mentioned by Andrew with the implication that they're old-fashioned or at least in danger of being displaced by new "standards", are the only ones I remember. The rest I can look up or ask about. -- AJ
>>>>
>> PPS Hmm. The reason I remember those two is that I invariably ride on bikes with mudguards, what Americans call "fenders". My fave mudguard maker is SKS, whose P65 I like, and which is essential if your tyres are 60mm wide Big Apples. If you insist on being an unpaid beta-tester for the newest fave of the fashion victims in wheel sizes, a wet bum comes with the package, no extra cost. That's not me. -- AJ
>>>
>>
>
>SKS covers darned near everything.
>Click the right-arrow top right of your screen here:
>
>https://www.sks-germany.com/en/productcategories/mudguards/

To my mind it isn't the "mud guard" itself that is important it is the
mounting and "V braces", I think they are called, and the attaching
clamps.

I can assure you that when you are roaring down Big Mountain
Boulevard, all tucked in, and the front V brace comes loose from the
fender and is sort of flopping around and is likely to get into the
spokes, it does make you "sit up and take notice" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

Off road bikes don’t routinely run guards like many I have a fork guard on
the MTB to stop most of the face aimed stuff. But nothing else as well
seems more hassle than it’s worth.

With gravel bikes most like myself run no guards and folks racing unbound
and the like which the 750d is aimed at be zero.

Also while they are good against water even standing water mud tends to be
their downfall, ie potential clogging with mud and vegetation matter.

Hence mud protection off road is stuff like goggle and what not.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

I've almost always run fenders or mudguards even on my mountain bike.
That frame has room for lots of spacing between the tires and the
fenders. On long off-road rides to other towns, I was the only one in
the group who could enter a diner looking reasonably clean.

Once I experienced an odd downside of mountain bike fenders. Two friends
and I were doing some pretty extreme (for me) stuff at some abandoned
strip mines. There was fine black coal dust coating parts of the ground.
Some of the dust that flung off my rear tire was caught by the rear
fender and dropped onto my rear cogs. Its consistency was just right to
clog most of the cogs and prevent shifting until I dug it out.

We did have a bad fender vs. mud problem riding our touring bikes on the
C&O Towpath Trail west of Washington DC. The sticky mud built up inside
the fender until it scraped on the tire tread and had to be scraped out.
But that surface was entirely mud that day. I've never had a similar
problem riding roads, where fenders are really valuable.

As to John's problem with fender stays coming loose: For small bike
fasteners like fender screws, blue Loctite prevents lots of problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

For your commuters and what not is a no brained, I have some full length
MTB ones on the old commute bike, which keeps my feet mostly dry.

Can’t say I’ve had mudguards get loose, mine are attached to forks via
straps (mtb full size ones) so can wiggle down but happens maybe once a
year needs adjusted back up.

I’d expect both my Gravel and MTB to cope fine with mud, after all British!
The gravel bike can clog if lots of vegetation in the mud as well, normally
around the fork crown.

The MTB will just claw its way through, be that pure mud or stuff with
vegetation which adds binding properties why some homemade tubeless sealant
used glitter.

Essentially with MTB the gap to allow for mud clearance means to be
effective the guard has to be huge, and generally adds a level of faff with
limited protection, with a gravel bike the argument is less clear cut and
depending on usage, is a option though don’t see many doing so.

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

My point was in the other direction, viz that for 700C covers (heh-heh, nice pun, Andrew!) you can get reliable high quality P65s from SKS --
https://www.sks-germany.com/en/productcategories/mudguards/
-- but who knows from who else, and what quality they'll be, or how long they'll last.
>
SKS is one of my favourite component makers/suppliers. Among other gear I have from them are two (so we can have one handy without having to fetch it from elsewhere) of the superb SKS Rennkompressor garage (floor) pumps with a variety of heads so that when pedalpals arrive at my door, we can pump up their tyres before we set off (the link isn't for you, because you know already, but for those who don't yet have a reliable and powerful floor pump with half a century or more of provenance):
https://www.sks-germany.com/en/floorpumps/
>
Andre Jute
I'm too poor to buy anything but the best. The best lasts forever, the replacement costs of alsorans will soon add up to more than the cost of the best. On top of that, the frustrations of fashion-victim gear takes years off your life, and that's priceless.
>

[Tom Kunich]

I'm lucky enough to live in California where rain is infrequent enough that I am able to ride around it with my retired lifestyle. Also I am able to buy and use bicycles that are not set up to use fenders and all of the noise that engenders. This is Krygowski's hell hole that he repeatedly claims it to be. Besides that it isn't 99.7% white. So it is easy to see why he would consider it a hell hole. He would consider Heaven a hell hole since there are minorities there.

[John B.]

On Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:40:03 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 9/4/2023 4:44 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>> On Sunday, September 3, 2023 at 10:25:05?PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, September 3, 2023 at 10:19:21?PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:

It was years ago,but they were top of the market fenders with some
sort of magic rapid connectors so that the fenders were removable in
just seconds. Super light weight plastic too. After my experience I
replaced the wonderful, removable, connectors and V braces with proper
threaded fittings and a solid strap across the fender as an attaching
point. No problems since.

>For your commuters and what not is a no brained, I have some full length
>MTB ones on the old commute bike, which keeps my feet mostly dry.
>
>Can’t say I’ve had mudguards get loose, mine are attached to forks via
>straps (mtb full size ones) so can wiggle down but happens maybe once a
>year needs adjusted back up.
>
>I’d expect both my Gravel and MTB to cope fine with mud, after all British!
>The gravel bike can clog if lots of vegetation in the mud as well, normally
>around the fork crown.
>
>The MTB will just claw its way through, be that pure mud or stuff with
>vegetation which adds binding properties why some homemade tubeless sealant
>used glitter.
>
>Essentially with MTB the gap to allow for mud clearance means to be
>effective the guard has to be huge, and generally adds a level of faff with
>limited protection, with a gravel bike the argument is less clear cut and
>depending on usage, is a option though don’t see many doing so.
>
>Roger Merriman
>

Something I've always wondered about bicyclists.

Way back when cyclists were jumping up and down, waving their arms and
hollering that they wanted paved roads to ride on. In fact you can
even read that bicycles were the reason for American paving roads -
certainly fiction but equally evidence that Bicyclists wanted smooth
paved roads.

Today, the U.S. has, generally speaking, paved roads about everywhere
you want to go and what are the cyclists doing? Now they are running
around in the bushes on unpaved "roads".

I wonder... do these same people visit their local pub of an evening
and demand to be served ice cream (:-?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 07:32:20 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

There's the power of "I think that activity/device looks
interesting/fun/useful, I think I'll try it."

It's called intrinsic motivation, when people do things or have things
for the simple joy of them. It's different from extrinsic motivation,
when people do things for fame, fortune, or wellbeing.

People who are primarily intrinsically motivated are more in control
of their lives. People who are primarily extrinsically motivated must
rely on external sources for fulfillment.

It sticks out like a sore thumb when people are constantly trying to
inject themselves into other person's lives, criticizing and demanding
explanations as to why others think or do what they do.

[Roger Meriman]

Bikes are not homogeneous in either their ability or uses.

Older or even new un sealed roads aren’t great for utility type bikes, and
dull as dishwater on MTB’s but are a hoot on the Gravel bike.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Slocomb has to show his ignorance with EVERY posting - he denies that roads were paved for bicycles while the first paved roads occurred before there were automobiles and most of the paving started before there were sufficient automobiles to be a voting block. In fact - automobiles weren't even important to voters until Henry Ford started paying his employees enough to afford his products in 1914. I wonder if there is anything that ass Slocomb will ever really understand?

Does he suppose that roads were paved so that horses and buggies could wear out horseshoes and make work for the blacksmith's?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/4/2023 8:32 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Something I've always wondered about bicyclists.

About _all_ bicyclists? Sounds like you're pretending all cyclists are
identical. That's far from true.

> Way back when cyclists were jumping up and down, waving their arms and
> hollering that they wanted paved roads to ride on. In fact you can
> even read that bicycles were the reason for American paving roads -
> certainly fiction but equally evidence that Bicyclists wanted smooth
> paved roads.

That's not fiction. Read some history, please. Try Carlton Reid's book
_Roads Were Not Built For Cars_, or dozens of other sources.

And from what I've read, the Good Roads movement wasn't jumping, waving
or hollering. It was a well organized political campaign, with allies
from the farming community and industry. The argument was that good
roads would help economic development by reducing transportation costs -
for example, making it much easier for crops to get to city markets. Of
course, cyclists knew they'd benefit from easier riding.

> Today, the U.S. has, generally speaking, paved roads about everywhere
> you want to go and what are the cyclists doing? Now they are running
> around in the bushes on unpaved "roads".
>
> I wonder... do these same people visit their local pub of an evening
> and demand to be served ice cream (:-?

I don't think the new and fashionable "gravel bike" riders are demanding
anything. My impression is that they just seek out gravel roads and ride
them. Certainly, they're not as demanding as the cyclists who want Ye
Magicke Grene Paint (it repels crashes!) applied to the entire surface
of every bike lane, which must be separated from all motor vehicles by
massive truck-proof obstacles.

In any case, I'm sure a lot of "gravel riders" do it because they don't
like being around motor vehicles. Some mentally exaggerate the dangers
and are very afraid of cars. Others have a more aesthetic preference,
and enjoy being closer to what they perceive as wilderness. There are
probably other motivations as well, because again, cyclists are far from
identical.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Krygowski can't reply to a post without trying to belittle anyone who
does things different from the way he does them. For some strange
reason, it helps him to feel better about himself.

[Tom Kunich]

When you have nothing else to show for yourself you can only make the achievements of others look less than yours.

[Roger Meriman]

I don’t get that impression most are roadies so well also ride on road,
it’s generally more normal to come to gravel from the road than MTB side.
As well they are road bikes if rather beefed up.

I’ve heard online folks comment that but that doesn’t appear to be the
driving force, after all could go MTBing or running etc to avoid cars.

I encounter many more cars on a gravel ride than MTB where I’d only see
them if any at a car park normally.

Did you ever explore the Amish Trails?

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

Nothing strange about Krygowski's sick need to belittle everyone else. Even a half-asleep psychiatrist, any psychiatrist, regardless of which coolaid he drinks, will recognise Krygowski's need to belittle and denigrate as a defining symptom of an advanced stage of narcissism. -- AJ
>

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/5/2023 4:37 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 9/4/2023 8:32 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Today, the U.S. has, generally speaking, paved roads about everywhere
>>> you want to go and what are the cyclists doing? Now they are running
>>> around in the bushes on unpaved "roads".
>>

>> I don't think the new and fashionable "gravel bike" riders are demanding
>> anything. My impression is that they just seek out gravel roads and ride
>> them. Certainly, they're not as demanding as the cyclists who want Ye
>> Magicke Grene Paint (it repels crashes!) applied to the entire surface
>> of every bike lane, which must be separated from all motor vehicles by
>> massive truck-proof obstacles.
>>
>> In any case, I'm sure a lot of "gravel riders" do it because they don't
>> like being around motor vehicles. Some mentally exaggerate the dangers
>> and are very afraid of cars. Others have a more aesthetic preference,
>> and enjoy being closer to what they perceive as wilderness. There are
>> probably other motivations as well, because again, cyclists are far from
>> identical.
>>
> I don’t get that impression most are roadies so well also ride on road,
> it’s generally more normal to come to gravel from the road than MTB side.
> As well they are road bikes if rather beefed up.

My impression comes from remarks made by riders I've met, and by people
posting online. There absolutely are many people who fear riding on
ordinary roads. Also, I've known several with whom I used to ride, but
who now say it's just too scary for them. That's despite the fact our
rides together used to be recreational, on mostly quiet country roads.
We also have quite a few new people in the bike club who refuse to ride
on roads; they do only out-and-back bike path rides.

In other online forums, I've seen plenty of "I'd never ride on the road"
followed by exaggerated statements like "All car drivers are out to get
you." I assume this attitude drives a lot of gravel riding.

Some, like our tricycle rider, claims he's not afraid to ride normal
roads. (Well, except for his own neighborhood.) He just doesn't want to.
;-)

> I’ve heard online folks comment that but that doesn’t appear to be the
> driving force, after all could go MTBing or running etc to avoid cars.
>
> I encounter many more cars on a gravel ride than MTB where I’d only see
> them if any at a car park normally.

For a timid person, mountain biking is probably scary. I think it's also
more whole-body difficult than gravel riding.

> Did you ever explore the Amish Trails?

They're actually just gravel roads, not trails. No, I haven't yet tried
them with my newly expanded tire clearance. I've ridden them a little in
the past with the 28s that I'm still running, and wider tires would be
much more pleasant, I think.

But it's a significant drive to get to the Amish areas, and we have
stuff going on that limits what we can do. That riding will have to be
next year at best.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Gravel riders?

> In other online forums, I've seen plenty of "I'd never ride on the road"
> followed by exaggerated statements like "All car drivers are out to get
> you." I assume this attitude drives a lot of gravel riding.
>

Internet if anything likes extreme views or rather they get shouted the
loudest.

> Some, like our tricycle rider, claims he's not afraid to ride normal
> roads. (Well, except for his own neighborhood.) He just doesn't want to.
> ;-)
>
>> I’ve heard online folks comment that but that doesn’t appear to be the
>> driving force, after all could go MTBing or running etc to avoid cars.
>>
>> I encounter many more cars on a gravel ride than MTB where I’d only see
>> them if any at a car park normally.
>
> For a timid person, mountain biking is probably scary. I think it's also
> more whole-body difficult than gravel riding.
>
>> Did you ever explore the Amish Trails?
>
> They're actually just gravel roads, not trails. No, I haven't yet tried
> them with my newly expanded tire clearance. I've ridden them a little in
> the past with the 28s that I'm still running, and wider tires would be
> much more pleasant, I think.
>

Sorry typo there with roads/trails. I’d assume that it’s fairly well packed
so “hero” gravel even so probably be more comfortable in the 30/40mm range.

> But it's a significant drive to get to the Amish areas, and we have
> stuff going on that limits what we can do. That riding will have to be
> next year at best.
>

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 23:04:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<LOL> Talk about exaggerated statements.. Narcissists have developed
expertice in exaggerated statements.

>Some, like our tricycle rider, claims he's not afraid to ride normal
>roads. (Well, except for his own neighborhood.) He just doesn't want to.
>;-)

Oh my, some people, myself included, don't want to do what Krygowski
does and that appears to bother him a lot. MOst people, again myself
included, don't care what other people do as long as it doesn't
interfere with them.

> > I’ve heard online folks comment that but that doesn’t appear to be the
> > driving force, after all could go MTBing or running etc to avoid cars.
> >
> > I encounter many more cars on a gravel ride than MTB where I’d only see
> > them if any at a car park normally.
>
>For a timid person, mountain biking is probably scary. I think it's also
>more whole-body difficult than gravel riding.
>
> > Did you ever explore the Amish Trails?
>
>They're actually just gravel roads, not trails. No, I haven't yet tried
>them with my newly expanded tire clearance. I've ridden them a little in
>the past with the 28s that I'm still running, and wider tires would be
>much more pleasant, I think.
>
>But it's a significant drive to get to the Amish areas, and we have
>stuff going on that limits what we can do. That riding will have to be
>next year at best.


--

Yes, little fella, I ride a Catrike, always alone, mostly on bike trails,
carrying a gun, and never without attaching my feet to the pedals. Nowdays,
I always truck my bike to where I start my ride. I tried and found riding
a bike to the grocery store and other routine trips to be boring. I hope I
am never reduced to riding like that. I am arrogantly proud of my bicycle
rides and all my other accomplishments. As an introvert, I also value my
solitude, where I'm free to tune into my own inner monologue.

[AMuzi]

Then again those once-bucolic country roads have become
filled in many cases. A once favorite ride for me, Airport
Road west of Madison WI to Cross Plains (25 mi loop), is
utterly different. The sod farm, cornfields and private
airport have become curb and sidewalk built up areas so one
never leaves 'urban' with concomitant traffic. This is not
the only example. Highway 113, once a quiet route to the
nearby State Park (60 mi loop) is a filled commuter route
all the way. Those of a certain age know this phenomenon well.

[Tom Kunich]

I believe that this isn't a particularly rare form among college teachers who have absolutely no other personal achievements. Most of college teachers find fulfillment in a job well done. Frank has not. His comments on subjects he hasn't a clue about is a perfect example of his narcissism. Being supported in his self aggrandizement by people like Flunky who is the only person with a worse case than Frank does nothing but feed the pig. If Frank felt the least pressure to speak only of things he knows, he would be fine. But imagine a person riding a steel 6 speed friction shifting bike that has never owned a modern bike telling us all about them! He buys an EV and could even tell you the proper way of testing for battery fade. Not that this is a big thing, but don't tell me what your batteries have done if you don't even know how to test them.

[Tom Kunich]

My local 25 mile Airport loop has been needed to be modified because Doolittle Dr. is now wall to wall traffic. Even the turn into the industrial area of Bay Farm Island. Alameda has traffic driving at excessive speeds and in the slow lane next top the bicyclists when they could easily pass in the left lane. So our group that rode that route for years has been forced for safety's sake to change it largely to bike paths which offer their own problems - dogs, on and off leash, runners, walkers walking across the path etc.

I think that Ohio much be dying under Frank if he has no problems with traffic. He does seem to have any problems with cancerous pollution since it is on the other end of his state. Perhaps the reason that Frank has not considered his own state a hell hole is because industry has forsaken them and there is no growth. That is NOT a good sign so why wouldn't he know that?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/6/2023 8:35 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/5/2023 10:04 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/5/2023 4:37 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>  > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> In other online forums, I've seen plenty of "I'd never ride on the
>> road" followed by exaggerated statements like "All car drivers are out
>> to get you." I assume this attitude drives a lot of gravel riding.
>>

> Then again those once-bucolic country roads have become filled in many
> cases. A once favorite ride for me, Airport Road west of Madison WI to
> Cross Plains (25 mi loop), is utterly different. The sod farm,
> cornfields and private airport have become curb and sidewalk built up
> areas so one never leaves 'urban' with concomitant traffic. This is not
> the only example. Highway 113, once a quiet route to the nearby State
> Park (60 mi loop) is a filled commuter route all the way. Those of a
> certain age know this phenomenon well.

That's true around here as well. The worst are the county-owned roads,
i.e. former farm roads, that have been subsumed by expanding suburbs.
Some have grown "mushroom developments," clusters of McMansions with a
single exit onto a former farm road. Some of those have been taken over
by hurried drivers who think using them will give less travel time than
the parallel arterials. They're ugly at rush hour.

But I'm lucky in that just five miles from the contiguous city+suburbs,
I can be on roads with much less traffic. These have always been our
bike club's favorite haunts. And I've always loved exploring, as in
"Where does that little lane go?" That's led to lots of little known
escape routes, a few of which have car-free cut-throughs.

I also enjoy riding city and suburban neighborhoods. I used to lead a
lot of club rides into and through the city. Small residential streets
are often quite traffic-free and peaceful. But again, I know people too
afraid to do city riding. It's a pity.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

I used to ride out that way. I also spent a lot of time riding around
Lake Wisconsin and Devils Lake. I used to truck my bike to Lodi (suzu
the duck) and ride on to where I could ride across on the ferry. There
used to be some great hiking trails back there in the foothills of the
Baraboo Bluffs. I hope they haven't been taken over by mountain
bikers, or worse, motor bikers.

[AMuzi]

Yes nice cycling area generally (just a few miles west of
here) but one usually approaches the ferry from the county
roads now, not Hwy 113.

[AMuzi]

On 9/6/2023 12:23 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:

p.s. ferry:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Znmsj7egaGw/maxresdefault.jpg

[Catrike Rider]

I met a young lady on that ferry. (I was single at the time) I took
her canoe camping down the river below the dam. We camped on a small
island/sand bar near Ferry Bluff. (no ferry, just a bluff) We stayed
there two nights before putting our swimsuits back on and paddling on
down the river.

[AMuzi]

Nice.
Downriver is Prarie du Sac/Sauk City followed by Mazomanie
with its famous nude beach. Wonderful area for cycling as well.

[Catrike Rider]

Still nude, eh? We were on our own little more secluded island
downstream of there. I'd been through there before on group canoe
trips so I knew what to expect and I knew there was more private
places downstream.