LED + Dynapower works a treat!
James
a MCPCB star plate for easy mounting. From RS Components they were
$12.70 each (bought 5, one spare.) They are wired up in pairs so that
2 conduct at one time, and the other pair when the voltage direction
changes.
I went out this morning after servicing the Dynapower (complete
disassembly and grease the plain bearings.)
I have to say, those LEDs are bloody brilliant!
http://australia.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=517-933
At their peak they produce about 200lm each, so 400lm almost
continuous. This is about as much light as your average car
headlight! All I'm going to do now is use some epoxy to pot the
electrical connections and see if I can get a piece of poly carb rod
cut in half to make a lens. From my calcs I reckon an 8-10mm dia rod
cut in half will just about do it.
James.
(A very happy biker)
Frank Krygowski
> I mounted 4 CREE LEDs on a piece of Al angle. The LEDs are already on
> a MCPCB star plate for easy mounting. From RS Components they were
> $12.70 each (bought 5, one spare.) They are wired up in pairs so that
> 2 conduct at one time, and the other pair when the voltage direction
> changes.
>
> I went out this morning after servicing the Dynapower (complete
> disassembly and grease the plain bearings.)
>
>
> At their peak they produce about 200lm each, so 400lm almost
> continuous. This is about as much light as your average car
> headlight! All I'm going to do now is use some epoxy to pot the
> electrical connections and see if I can get a piece of poly carb rod
> cut in half to make a lens. From my calcs I reckon an 8-10mm dia rod
> cut in half will just about do it.
>
> James.
> (A very happy biker)
As usual, I wonder about the optics. I don't need the light output
of a car headlight, and I don't care for the idea of throwing that
amount of light out there without focusing it properly.
Let us know how the polycarb lens works out.
- Frank Krygowski
Peter Cole
Price seems a little steep (even in Au$) and I didn't see the bin code
(XR-E LED's go from 40-107 lumens @350 ma depending on bin code).
Another source:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394
James
I found that polycarb is not so easy to polish. I got a short length
of 10mm dia clear acrylic from a local plastics supplier. They gave
me the piece free of charge. I cut it along its length so that in
cross section it is flat one side and half round the other. I made a
jig out of timber to help. This is about the right focal length
according to my estimations, for the lens to be mounted just in front
of the LED dome.
1/f = (u - 1)(1/r)
u = 1.5
r = 5mm
f = 10mm
I filed, sanded and polished the sawn surface and it's come up really
nice. Mounted right on the LED dome gives a really nice spread. The
LEDs are in a line horizontally, and the beam spread with the lens is
very pleasing. It is probably about 10-15 degrees vertically, with
some leakage to the sides that makes it better for motorists to see
the light from near right angles.
Now I've just to attach the lens permanently with a couple of
appropriately sized standoffs.
JS.
James
> James wrote:
> > I mounted 4 CREE LEDs on a piece of Al angle. The LEDs are already on
> > a MCPCB star plate for easy mounting. From RS Components they were
> > $12.70 each (bought 5, one spare.) They are wired up in pairs so that
> > 2 conduct at one time, and the other pair when the voltage direction
> > changes.
>
> > I went out this morning after servicing the Dynapower (complete
> > disassembly and grease the plain bearings.)
>
> > I have to say, those LEDs are bloody brilliant!
>
> > At their peak they produce about 200lm each, so 400lm almost
> > continuous. This is about as much light as your average car
> > headlight! All I'm going to do now is use some epoxy to pot the
> > electrical connections and see if I can get a piece of poly carb rod
> > cut in half to make a lens. From my calcs I reckon an 8-10mm dia rod
> > cut in half will just about do it.
>
> > James.
> > (A very happy biker)
>
> Price seems a little steep (even in Au$) and I didn't see the bin code
> (XR-E LED's go from 40-107 lumens @350 ma depending on bin code).
>
> Another source:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394
>
> For optics:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1920
>
> and these:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1918
Wow! Wish I'd seen these before. Thanks. I think the ones I've got
are on a genuine CREE mount base, whereas these seem to be assembled
by a third party.
JS.
Chalo
Have you seen this optic? Nominally 12 degree by 160 degree
distribution pattern:
http://www.led-spot.com/p_linear.shtml
http://www.led-spot.com/data/FLARE.pdf
Chalo
James
Hadn't see those. Thanks. They wouldn't quite fit on my assembly
though unfortunately. However the beam spread I get from my home grow
lens seems quite similar.
Cheers,
James.
SMS
I'm ordering an MR16 3 LED MR16 lamp from DealExtreme. They actually
sell these at Lowe's now for $25 (FEIT brand), but that's a lot more
than ordering from Deal Extreme.
There are several good things about the MR16 lamps.
1. They run on AC or DC (the LED models have internal circuitry to
convert the AC to DC for the LEDs), so all the LEDs always conduct.
2. Good optics have always been a hallmark of the MR type of lamps, and
(for incandescent) they are available in a wide variety of beam patters
from narrow spot to wide flood. The optics on a multi-LED lamp are not
as good since they have three small reflectors inside the housing unless
you get the single 4W LED model), but the higher efficiency should make
up for some of this.
3. They include proper heat sinking, which is a big issue on high power
LEDs. It's hard to do a homebrew system with proper heat sinking since
you need to maximize the surface area of exposed aluminum by using
finned heat sinks that air flows through.
A disadvantage of the LED MR16 lamps is that you really can't put them
into an enclosure (I use the QH-7CC enclosures for halogen MR16 lamps
("http://www.optronicsinc.com/competition.htm") because they run so hot
that they need a lot of airflow directly through the fins of the heat
sink. Ikea has some MR16 enclosures that can be modified to provide
sufficient air flow and that will mount easily to the bike.
I'm going to try the DealExtreme MR16 LED lamps on both my dynamo
powered system and the battery powered system. If it's not bright enough
with the 6V/3W dynamo I'll try a 12V/6W dynamo (but not the $300 12V
Dymotec from Peter White!). Unfortunately, while 12V tire-drive dynamos
are widely available, 12V hub dynamos are not available, though
according to SON the reason they haven't done them is because they would
not be legal under the old German standard.
somebody
wrote:
I tried the DX MR-16 lights. They work OK but mechanical mounting
details are a pain due to size. The 25.4 MM modules made for
flashlights are much easier to use. Cost is usually better, $10
range.
DX lists a bunch of them with a variety of regulators. All the ones I
tried worked OK.
SMS
<snip>
> I tried the DX MR-16 lights. They work OK but mechanical mounting
> details are a pain due to size. The 25.4 MM modules made for
> flashlights are much easier to use. Cost is usually better, $10
> range.
I don't find the MR16's too large at all. For incandescents, mounting
was easy using the inexpensive QH-7CC enclosures, and the larger
reflector was a big advantage in terms of illumination. It'll be more
challenging with an LED version since they produce so much heat and
since you can't block the heat sink. I think I found a good MR16 mount
at Ikea, 5 for $20,
"http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50148075" which can be
modified for proper air flow and easy mounting to the bicycle.
James
I have my 4 CREE LEDs mounted on a piece of aluminium angle, 100mm
long, 12x25mm. I could not detect any heating of the al plate when I
rode last Saturday morning. Mind you it was a cool morning and a bit
foggy.
I get between 200 and 450 lm depending on my speed. My lens works
well to create a beam that is narrow vertically and wide
horizontally. No reflector.
How do the MR16's compare lumen wise?
JS.
SMS
> How do the MR16's compare lumen wise?
"http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30208" claims 360 lumens with
four Cree emitters.
The question is how well a 6V/3W dynamo can drive it. If I use it with a
dynamo I may need to get a 12V/6W dynamo instead, adding another $20 to
the cost. Or I may just connect it to my 12VDC system.
James
So maybe not quite as much light output, but the difference would be
hardly noticeable to the human eye.
The 6V dynamo might be capable of producing enough voltage, but
probably not at low speeds. My setup starts to run the LEDs at a fast
walking pace (5km/h).
I would imagine the 6W dynamo might produce a little more drag as well
as being larger and heavier? Or is it using more modern rare earth
magnets possibly?
JS.
James
Just mounted the lens properly and did a quick test. I measure 120mm
vertical spread at 300mm.
atan(6/30) = +11 degrees. So 22 degrees beam spread. Now if I move
the lens further away, say with a washer, I can focus the beam
narrower if necessary. Will try tonight and see how it goes! (maiden
voyage - few nerves..)
JS.
Frank Krygowski
I've got an old 12 Volt bottle dynamo. (Maybe two of them.) Yes,
it's somewhat larger and heavier. This may be largely because it has
an extra tap that still provides 6V for the taillight, despite the 12V
for the headlight.
IIRC, the one (or two?) I have doesn't self-regulate very well at
all. That is, even with its stock bulb, it didn't hold to 12 V. And
it seemed mechanically crude and noisy. And the headlamp optics were
really terrible. All those were reasons I used it only very briefly.
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
There are a range of standard to nice quality 6v dynamos but
not for 12v that I've ever seen. Mostly second rate units.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
James
It would be interesting to measure the output with a few different
load resistors and a CRO. I'm not sure your average multimeter would
accurately measure the RMS voltage at the output frequency you get at,
say, 60 km/h.
I guess you could rectify and low pass filter the voltage developed
across a load resistor. The average value can be converted to RMS or
peak voltages fairly easily (assuming a basically sinusoidal waveform,
and taking into account the voltage drop across your rectifier diodes
and filter characteristics).
The dynamo should saturate at some current, i.e. it's self current
limiting, not voltage limiting. Incandescent bulbs need to be well
over rated to not blow at high speed - then are too dim at low/normal
speeds. Incandescent bulbs are better suited to constant voltage
sources - not constant current sources.
LEDs however are far better suited to the constant current source
feature of the dynamo. Their steep rise in current with little change
in voltage means they happily limit the dynamo output voltage by
themselves.
I just don't like the idea of the bottle dynamo so much as the roller
design of the Sanyo Dynapower. Pity there doesn't seem to be a decent
replacement.
JS.
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> It would be interesting to measure the output with a few different
> load resistors and a CRO. I'm not sure your average multimeter would
> accurately measure the RMS voltage at the output frequency you get at,
> say, 60 km/h.
A friend and I have put bike generators on a scope. The waveform
wasn't really sinusoidal. As I recall, the 12V 6W unit was really
weird, with some definite harmonics in there. So we used a true RMS
meter when we did the article on page 7 of this:
http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp49-1999.pdf
That was before white LEDs really took off.
> Incandescent bulbs are better suited to constant voltage
> sources - not constant current sources.
>
> LEDs however are far better suited to the constant current source
> feature of the dynamo. Their steep rise in current with little change
> in voltage means they happily limit the dynamo output voltage by
> themselves.
>
> I just don't like the idea of the bottle dynamo so much as the roller
> design of the Sanyo Dynapower. Pity there doesn't seem to be a decent
> replacement.
I agree with all of that. The Soubitez roller is my favorite,
although I forget its model number. It comes up to full power at much
lower speed than the Sanyo, and seems to have higher output as well.
It's on three bikes here.
But we just got back from a European trip, and I saw lots and lots of
hub dynamos. That's the trend. It may be that in a few years, any
decent non-sporting bike will come with a hub dynamo and a high output
LED headlamp with really good road optics, i.e. optics as good as
those on cars and motorcycles. At that point, I'll consider this
problem solved.
- Frank Krygowski
Tim McNamara
<70777106-af68-4301...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But we just got back from a European trip, and I saw lots and lots of
> hub dynamos. That's the trend. It may be that in a few years, any
> decent non-sporting bike will come with a hub dynamo and a high
> output LED headlamp with really good road optics, i.e. optics as good
> as those on cars and motorcycles. At that point, I'll consider this
> problem solved.
It's pretty doggone close now. The chief issue is that it's still being
done at boutique prices. Once Cateye and some of those get onto it, a
good hub and LED lamp system will cost about 1/5 as much as a Schmidt
and eDelux.
James
> In article
> <70777106-af68-4301-8efa-c6ed17324...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > But we just got back from a European trip, and I saw lots and lots of
> > hub dynamos. That's the trend. It may be that in a few years, any
> > decent non-sporting bike will come with a hub dynamo and a high
> > output LED headlamp with really good road optics, i.e. optics as good
> > as those on cars and motorcycles. At that point, I'll consider this
> > problem solved.
>
> It's pretty doggone close now. The chief issue is that it's still being
> done at boutique prices. Once Cateye and some of those get onto it, a
> good hub and LED lamp system will cost about 1/5 as much as a Schmidt
> and eDelux.
I can't see myself using a dynamo hub. Why would I want to invest in
another wheel just to produce light? To me the Sanyo design was the
best. Where I mount it, it's a 1 minute job to remove and the bike is
ready to race. No swapping wheels or cassettes. No extra drag if I
go for a training ride in daylight and leave the dynamo on the bike.
Oh, I'll be sad when I wear it out now. I guess there's not much to
wear out really. I could replace the bearing material if push comes
to shove.
JS.
SMS
> I can't see myself using a dynamo hub. Why would I want to invest in
> another wheel just to produce light? To me the Sanyo design was the
> best. Where I mount it, it's a 1 minute job to remove and the bike is
> ready to race. No swapping wheels or cassettes. No extra drag if I
> go for a training ride in daylight and leave the dynamo on the bike.
> Oh, I'll be sad when I wear it out now. I guess there's not much to
> wear out really. I could replace the bearing material if push comes
> to shove.
You should have bought more of the Sanyo bottom bracket dynamos when you
were back in the past. I only have one as well. Actually they are still
making them, but you probably will never be able to buy one in the U.S..
It's from Suzhou Sanyo Electro-Mechanical Co., Ltd. in Suzhou China.
It's Roller Dynamo NH-T10 (I think the T stands for tire). You can see
it here: "http://www.docstoc.com/docs/39343652/WTB-2010-New-OE-Products"
and it's not new because they were showing it in 2009 as well, and I
could swear that I saw them in 2008 at the Taipei Cycle show. If you
order 1000 of them I'll buy five.
In reality, hub dynamos are very inexpensive when they're included when
the bicycle is manufactured. It's only when you buy them as an add-on at
full retail price (with a whole wheel at full retail price), that the
cost goes up about 20-40x. It's a little different from when fenders,
racks, and kickstands are included versus being bought as accessories,
because you need a whole wheel, not just the hub. For the manufacturer,
they're not going to add an extra $5-7 to the manufacturing cost of
every bicycle for the tiny percentage of riders that want to ride at night.
Clive George
> I can't see myself using a dynamo hub. Why would I want to invest in
> another wheel just to produce light?
Because it's the most reliable solution out there. Also less draggy in
use than your tyre driven one, and quiet too.
> To me the Sanyo design was the
> best. Where I mount it, it's a 1 minute job to remove and the bike is
> ready to race. No swapping wheels or cassettes. No extra drag if I
> go for a training ride in daylight and leave the dynamo on the bike.
> Oh, I'll be sad when I wear it out now. I guess there's not much to
> wear out really. I could replace the bearing material if push comes
> to shove.
Swapping a hub dynamo'd wheel for a conventional one is even quicker
than that, and front wheels are cheap. Also, that extra drag you're
worried about for your training ride is really very tiny indeed.
But racing bikes aren't really the market for dynamo lights.
Tim McNamara
<3a2bce78-7850-4bc1...@u20g2000pru.googlegroups.com>,
James <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've got both a Schmidt SON and a Sanyo Dynapower. The former was
expensive, the latter was free. Both are just power sources, of course;
the business end of the system is the lamp. I'm still using 3W
incandescents because I have them and they are good enough. I am
watching the LED revolution with much interest, though, and they are
improving by leaps and bounds every year.
In terms of use, the Schmidt system is lighter since it replaces an
existing hub, whereas the Sanyo is an add-on. The Sanyo sometimes slips
when riding in the rain, and if you have to ride through mud it becomes
very problematic. Drag is noticeably higher with the Sanyo although I
don't find it enough to worry about. I have used both in brevets and,
while I prefer the SON for simplicity and convenience, both work fine.
Since the Sanyo wouldn't fit on the chainstays of my Riv All-Rounder, I
fabricated a mount to put it on the front wheel using the rack:
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/photos/sanyo.jpg
I think that's my old Basta lamp which I didn't like; I have a B&M now.
Tim McNamara
SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> In reality, hub dynamos are very inexpensive when they're included
> when the bicycle is manufactured. It's only when you buy them as an
> add-on at full retail price (with a whole wheel at full retail
> price), that the cost goes up about 20-40x.
I don't know that the cost differential is quite that high, but the
general principle is correct- much cheaper as OEM than as aftermarket.
In the US there are few bikes sold with a hub dynamo at this point
(Breezer does, I think). There are a number of options including the
Rolls Royce-like Schmidt or the much cheaper Shimano hubs.
Tim McNamara
Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
My Schmidt wheel is swapped between several bikes, one of them being my
racing bike during the time of year when it's likely to get dark while
riding.
Clive George
> I've got both a Schmidt SON and a Sanyo Dynapower. The former was
> expensive, the latter was free. Both are just power sources, of course;
> the business end of the system is the lamp. I'm still using 3W
> incandescents because I have them and they are good enough. I am
> watching the LED revolution with much interest, though, and they are
> improving by leaps and bounds every year.
You really ought to take a closer look. I'm using the ones which came
out at least a couple of years ago (IQ Fly), and they beat incandescents
easily. The Cyo isn't anything like the same step change on top of that,
and I don't think the posher ones will be either.
Frank Krygowski
> On Jun 10, 1:10 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <70777106-af68-4301-8efa-c6ed17324...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> > Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > But we just got back from a European trip, and I saw lots and lots of
> > > hub dynamos. That's the trend. It may be that in a few years, any
> > > decent non-sporting bike will come with a hub dynamo and a high
> > > output LED headlamp with really good road optics, i.e. optics as good
> > > as those on cars and motorcycles. At that point, I'll consider this
> > > problem solved.
>
> > It's pretty doggone close now. The chief issue is that it's still being
> > done at boutique prices. Once Cateye and some of those get onto it, a
> > good hub and LED lamp system will cost about 1/5 as much as a Schmidt
> > and eDelux.
>
> I can't see myself using a dynamo hub. Why would I want to invest in
> another wheel just to produce light? To me the Sanyo design was the
> best. Where I mount it, it's a 1 minute job to remove and the bike is
> ready to race. No swapping wheels or cassettes. No extra drag if I
> go for a training ride in daylight and leave the dynamo on the bike.
At present, your strategy is the same as mine. About a year ago, I
bought a Shimano hub generator intended for my utility bike, but still
haven't installed it. That's partly because of other projects, but
mostly because my Soubitez roller unit works so well.
But in a few years, if a person were to buy a decent new bike for
utility use, I think it will be likely to come with a hub generator as
the default front hub. Perhaps the $100 *-mart bikes won't, but
decent bikes will. Those of us who tinker with resurrecting old bikes
may still use separate generators (or battery lights), but we'll be at
a disadvantage.
At least, I kind of hope that will be the case. I need to remind
myself that I live in a country where almost no new bikes have
practical things like fenders, and where cycling has the image of
being either for macho racers or mud thrashers, and is always
considered dangerous. :-(
- Frank Krygowski
Jay Beattie
And what country -- or planet -- is it that you come from? Try one of
the 40 city bikes from REI. How about this one: http://www.rei.com/product/798385
Or how about the Trek Belleville: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/eco_design/belleville/
Or an Electra http://www.electrabike.com/home.php
Or a Jamis Commuter 4: http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/street/commuter/10_commuter4.html
This haul of bicycles is from a five minute internet search. I go
five blocks to the Bike Gallery and can see a half dozen more. I
think you are totally out of touch with the market -- or who is
commuting every day to work and what the "image" of commuters is. The
image around here is of a bunch of people in street clothes riding
junk -- or hipsters. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordan_n22/528978029/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35021226@N02/3554916041/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9522317@N02/1547798049/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/winterch/2662096940/
These dudes got stuck when the bridge went up:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ritaliana/280145470/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scampion/4459239716/
Racing bikes! http://www.flickr.com/photos/christophersoddsandsods/2505177561/
Damn, not a single macho racer or mud thrasher in sight. -- Jay
Beattie.
Jay Beattie
> Or a Jamis Commuter 4:http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/street/commuter/10_commuter4.html
>
> This haul of bicycles is from a five minute internet search. I go
> five blocks to the Bike Gallery and can see a half dozen more. I
> think you are totally out of touch with the market -- or who is
> commuting every day to work and what the "image" of commuters is. The
> image around here is of a bunch of people in street clothes riding
>
> These dudes got stuck when the bridge went up:http://www.flickr.com/photos/ritaliana/280145470/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/scampion/4459239716/
>
>
> Damn, not a single macho racer or mud thrasher in sight. -- Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
I can't help myself. Here is another bastion of Frank approved bikes.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/christophersoddsandsods/2505177561/
SMS
> I can't help myself. Here is another bastion of Frank approved bikes.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/christophersoddsandsods/2505177561/
'cept note that that person has a helmet. Obviously not a
"Frank-Approved" commuter. Probably a communist.
Seriously, commuter bicycles are very popular in my area as well. Mostly
sold from stores like REI. However hub dynamos are still very rare. I
think REI sells two models, the Novara Fusion and the Raleigh Detour
Deluxe. Most commuters opt for higher power, safer, rechargeable battery
powered lights. Even when you see one of those hub dynamo bicycles it's
likely that the rider also has higher power light.
I find it rather amusing that some people that complain about what a
pain it is to charge batteries see no problem with moving a hub dynamo
wheel from bike to bike.
I'd like to pick up a couple of those Sanyo bottom bracket dynamos that
are now being made again.
N8N
well, if you have two bikes, both with dyno headlights pre-wired, and
they take the same size/width wheel, it takes approximately 5 seconds
longer than swapping the front wheel *without* the hub dyno...
In my case I just have one bike with the dyno headlight, and as a
result, it's the one that always gets taken unless I'm absolutely sure
that I'll be back before dark.
nate
Andre Jute
> On 10/06/10 11:05 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > I can't help myself. Here is another bastion of Frank approved bikes.
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/christophersoddsandsods/2505177561/
>
> 'cept note that that person has a helmet. Obviously not a
> "Frank-Approved" commuter. Probably a communist.
At the very least Krygowski will declare him an "enemy of cycling".
Frank Krygowski's first act once his Cycling (Dys) Utopia is
established, will be to set up a House Uncycling Activities Committee
(HUAC) to hunt down and destroy anyone who ever disagreed with him as
"enemies of the Reich...sorry, I mean cycling".
You'd better take care, Steven. You'll be high on Frank's list of
subversives to be shot on sight.
Andre Jute
Friend of Free Speech
Frank Krygowski
> I need to remind
> > myself that I live in a country where almost no new bikes have
> > practical things like fenders, and where cycling has the image of
> > being either for macho racers or mud thrashers, and is always
> > considered dangerous. :-(
>
> And what country -- or planet -- is it that you come from? Try one of
> the 40 city bikes from REI. How about this one:http://www.rei.com/product/798385
> Or how about the Trek Belleville: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/eco_design/belleville/
Jay, I didn't mean it was impossible to find such bikes. I meant that
of the total bicycles sold every year, or used any particular day,
only a tiny percentage have fenders. Or lights. Or accessories used
to carry anything larger than, say, a jacket that the rider just took
off. I think it's silly to pretend otherwise.
And the country I'm speaking of is the USA. Specifically, the non-PDX
USA.
Portland can be charming, but I think you need to travel more. You
tend to be pretty parochial on many of these issues.
- Frank Krygowski
Tim McNamara
Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
I've seen those and the descendents such as the eDelux. Nice
illumination and a good even field of light. I'm just a bit on the
cheap side.
Jay Beattie
> On Jun 10, 1:58 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > I need to remind
> > > myself that I live in a country where almost no new bikes have
> > > practical things like fenders, and where cycling has the image of
> > > being either for macho racers or mud thrashers, and is always
> > > considered dangerous. :-(
>
> > And what country -- or planet -- is it that you come from? Try one of
> > the 40 city bikes from REI. How about this one:http://www.rei.com/product/798385
> > Or how about the Trek Belleville: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/eco_design/belleville/
>
> Jay, I didn't mean it was impossible to find such bikes. I meant that
> of the total bicycles sold every year, or used any particular day,
> only a tiny percentage have fenders. Or lights. Or accessories used
> to carry anything larger than, say, a jacket that the rider just took
> off. I think it's silly to pretend otherwise.
You seem to be content pretending that those bikes don't exist and are
not readily available. Here's another dozen on this guy's website:
http://kentuckybicycling.com/2008-commuting-bikes/
Christalmighty, when I was a kid in the 60s, we didn't have this kind
of selection. Plus, fenders and lights are OPTIONS -- you can put them
on any bike. Hub dynamos, of course, are a more sophisticated option
and are now showing up as OEM equipment on some decent bikes.
Of course, we could pine away for the old days when all bikes came
with hub dynamos -- except that they didn't. Ferret through the old
Schwinn catalogues and see for yourelf. http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1961_1970/index.html
They had battery lights and bottle dynamos as an option. Maybe Fogel
can dig up some old bikes with OEM hub dynamos. None come to mind for
me.
>
> And the country I'm speaking of is the USA. Specifically, the non-PDX
> USA.
>
> Portland can be charming, but I think you need to travel more. You
> tend to be pretty parochial on many of these issues.
I do need to travel more, and I will certainly make it a point to
visit that city where commuter cyclists are macho racers and mud
thrashers. Now where is that city?
With that said, I commute with plenty of macho racers -- who are
really racers because every other person in this town belongs to a
racing team of some sort. Like I have said many times before, racing
in this town is like being on a bowling league. There are also plenty
of poseurs in pro team kit, but they are in the clear minority. And
there are also plenty of no-helmet flower children and fixie poseurs
and DUII suspended-license commuters, homeless people collecting
aluminum cans, college kids on Varsities (which have become chic),
etc. Fixie posing is an incredible pasttime in this city -- which is
fine, because that means I don't have to deal with them in the hills.
-- Jay Beattie.
SMS
> You seem to be content pretending that those bikes don't exist and are
> not readily available.
It fits his agenda.
What I miss is chain guards. Even with leg bands you still can end up
with greasy pants at the end of a commute. And those are not readily
available in the after-market (in the U.S.), and they're specific to the
size of the largest front chainwheel when you can find them at all.
AMuzi
Second Mr Beattie about those halcyon days which never were.
When Raleigh offered Dynohubs standard on some models and as
a dealer option on others, we sold very few. Nice quality
Soubitez and Cibie bottle dynamos were more popular, but
still in very small numbers.
The bulk of lighting sales in the (dim) good ol' days was in
Wonder leg lamps and then later the marginally better Matex
Life Light. Both sucked by any standard then and now.
Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our
new world is better all around largely because of him.
Tim McNamara
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our
> new world is better all around largely because of him.
Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
AMuzi
>> Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our
>> new world is better all around largely because of him.
Tim McNamara wrote:
> Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
> cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
He did the first successful LED bike lights before that.
Jay Beattie
The Cannondale/Magic Motorcycle Alex Pong? -- Jay Beattie.
Chalo
>
> AMuzi wrote:
> > Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our
> > new world is better all around largely because of him.
>
> Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
> cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
Don't you mean the sublime Magic Motorcycle cranks, which predicted
the eventual move to hollow aluminum crankarms, big-tube spindles, and
external bottom bracket bearings?
Credit where credit is due. When I made my first external bearing BB,
I wasn't copying Shimano.
Chalo
AMuzi
>>> Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our
>>> new world is better all around largely because of him.
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
>> cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
Chalo wrote:
> Don't you mean the sublime Magic Motorcycle cranks, which predicted
> the eventual move to hollow aluminum crankarms, big-tube spindles, and
> external bottom bracket bearings?
> Credit where credit is due. When I made my first external bearing BB,
> I wasn't copying Shimano.
Big Thinkers sometimes do less well commercially compared to
their overall influence. Wilbur & Orville, Nikolai Tesla, etc.
Pong put LEDs on bicycles. The rest, as they say, is history.
SMS
<snip>
> Second Mr Beattie about those halcyon days which never were.
I never remember any bicycles coming with dynamo lights from the 60's to
the 90's, though I often added them to my bicycles.
> When Raleigh offered Dynohubs standard on some models and as a dealer
> option on others, we sold very few. Nice quality Soubitez and Cibie
> bottle dynamos were more popular, but still in very small numbers.
I had lunch with a friend today who teaches Effective Cycling. He
mentioned his Soubitez bottle dynamo/light and how it was of good
quality but was rather abysmal in terms of light output. He's an
Effective Cycling instructor and has been been promoting the Lowe's Task
Force flashlight (and mount) to his students as the ideal
low-cost/high-power bicycle light (including instructions on how to
correct the problems with it), but now he's probably going to change his
recommendation to the Costco flashlight
("http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11500428") as it's
better built and the same price. He was showing me that the threads on
the rear cap had become stripped and the rear cap didn't stay on any
more and he was going to Lowe's to see if the "lifetime warranty" was
really real.
Now with the proliferation of LED headlamps and hub dynamos, including
new low cost ones from Sanyo, maybe we'll see dynamos moving down from
$900 boutique bicycles to $400-600 commuter bikes. We're finally to the
point where a dynamo and an LED headlamp can provide adequate light
output for moderate pace riding.
I'd like to try one of the new Sanyo bottom bracket dynamos. Any chance
of you getting some from Sanyo China and selling them in your store?
Frank Krygowski
> On Jun 10, 1:14 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jay, I didn't mean it was impossible to find such bikes. I meant that
> > of the total bicycles sold every year, or used any particular day,
> > only a tiny percentage have fenders. Or lights. Or accessories used
> > to carry anything larger than, say, a jacket that the rider just took
> > off. I think it's silly to pretend otherwise.
>
> You seem to be content pretending that those bikes don't exist and are
> not readily available.
That's not at all what I said, and anyone can scan upthread to
verify. Address what I really said, not what you think you can argue
against.
I know practical accessories are available, because I have them on
most of my bikes. But the overwhelming majority of bikes in America
don't come with any practical accessories, and the overwhelming
majority of American cyclists don't install them.
I suppose we could ask our bike shop guys (Andrew, Chalo, Mike, etc.)
what percentage of the bikes they sell or repair are equipped with
fenders. Or lights. Or racks. Or bags big enough to hold, say, a
six pack of whatever. My guess is the percentage is very small. It's
small in every American city I've visited. IIRC, it's not very large
even in Portland OR.
Today, I did a quick local survey as we drove to visit a family
member. On the way, I counted ten bikes. 8 were *-mart mountain
bikes, one was an hybrid ridden by a guy even older than me, and one
was a skinny-tired road bike ridden by a guy who seemed to be a full-
kit commuting roadie - lycra shorts, jersey, shoes, etc. None of the
bikes had fenders. None had racks or bags, even though three folks
were carrying things - two in plastic grocery bags hanging from a
handlebar, and the roadie using a well-stuffed backpack. Only the
roadie had lights on the bike, and trust me, even that's very
uncommon.
Oh, and you might go back and examine your PDX photos again. Even in
Portland's notoriously wet climate, what percentage of the photo bikes
had fenders? By and large, Americans don't do fenders.
- Frank Krygowski
Tim McNamara
<6def52c5-e3ea-4fbb...@t10g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >
> > AMuzi wrote:
> > > Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our new
> > > world is better all around largely because of him.
> >
> > Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
> > cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
>
> Don't you mean the sublime Magic Motorcycle cranks, which predicted
> the eventual move to hollow aluminum crankarms, big-tube spindles,
> and external bottom bracket bearings?
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-024.html
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-014.html
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-040.html
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-012/000.html (scroll down a bit).
Maybe we are using different definitions of "sublime."
Tim McNamara
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our new
> >> world is better all around largely because of him.
>
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
> > cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
>
> He did the first successful LED bike lights before that.
I knew that not, or if I once knew it had been forgotten.
Jay Beattie
Here's a shot of the parking next to the aerial tram, which is mostly
bikes with racks and/or fenders -- some without.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/4454199407/in/photostream/
It was about 60% fenders in the rack in my building -- there was a
big-hit bike down there which simply could not fit fenders. In
Portland, fenders are pretty common -- everything from full bolt on
models to Race Blades to clip on seat post fenders. But I see no
reason why they should be common in Phoenix -- or sold OEM there, or
anywhere. If you want fenders, put them on. I absolutely do not want
a bike with an installed light. I pick my own lights. I don't ride
any bike with a rack, except my touring bike. I use a backpack. This
group is split: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/3840547534/in/set-72157607604514096/
The snow commuters apparently like panniers:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/3231192941/ Ugly shots.
This is my commute: http://www.flickr.com/photos/austin80s/9061295/
Anyway, people can get racks, fenders, lights, etc. Your gripe is
really that people are not buying what you think is the only right
bike -- some mythical commuter with racks, fenders, dynamos. The
Chairman Mao, one size fits all bike.
Well, people like other types of bikes. They like bikes that they can
go fast or can ride on trails (try a stick in a fender for a real
wake up call) or that fold or that, God forbid, have only one gear.
God bless the fenderless! -- Jay Beattie.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Tim McNamara wrote:
> > >
> > > AMuzi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our new
> > > > world is better all around largely because of him.
> > >
> > > Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
> > > cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
>
> > Don't you mean the sublime Magic Motorcycle cranks, which predicted
> > the eventual move to hollow aluminum crankarms, big-tube spindles,
> > and external bottom bracket bearings?
>
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-024.html
>
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-014.html
>
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-040.html
>
>
> Maybe we are using different definitions of "sublime."
You can find some pictures of broken Campy Record cranks on that site
too, and those were widely regarded as the best of their day.
My point is not that Magic Motorcycle cranks were reliable or without
noteworthy problems, but that their design successes exceeded their
design shortcomings. That's why Shimano's, FSA's, and Truvativ's high
end cranks are now copies of the Magic Motorcycle design.
Campagnolo's high end cranks are now more nearly copies of the Sweet
Wings design, which also was known for premature failure.
Chalo
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> Anyway, people can get racks, fenders, lights, etc. Your gripe is
> really that people are not buying what you think is the only right
> bike -- some mythical commuter with racks, fenders, dynamos. The
> Chairman Mao, one size fits all bike.
Let's re-read and re-think. I originally said that, based on what I
just saw in Europe, I think in the future that hub generators and good
LED lights will come standard on good utility bikes.
But then I corrected myself and said people in the US buy hardly any
bikes with practical accessories. That triggered your objections.
I never said anything about the "only right bike." Admittedly, I'd
like to see more utility cycling in the US. I think it would be good
for the country. And yes, I think more acceptance of more practical
bikes would help that.
But nowhere did I say that people should not buy sport bikes for sport
uses, or mountain bikes for off-roading, or track bikes for track
racing, or whatever bike is appropriate for their use.
Again, you need to address what I really say, not what you think you
can argue against. And you might get a truer picture of American
cycling by traveling more outside PDX.
- Frank Krygowski
Tim McNamara
<a20cfa6f-c1db-4b13...@h13g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >
> > Chalo wrote:
> > >
> > > Tim McNamara wrote:
> > > >
> > > > AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Today's moment of silent appreciation is for Alex Pong. Our new
> > > > > world is better all around largely because of him.
> > > >
> > > > Wasn't that the dude responsible for the atrocious Magic Motorcycle
> > > > cranks, which included every stress riser known to man?
> >
> > > Don't you mean the sublime Magic Motorcycle cranks, which predicted
> > > the eventual move to hollow aluminum crankarms, big-tube spindles,
> > > and external bottom bracket bearings?
> >
> > http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-024.html
> >
> > http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-014.html
> >
> > http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-040.html
> >
> > http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-012/000.html(scroll down a bit).
> >
> > Maybe we are using different definitions of "sublime."
>
> You can find some pictures of broken Campy Record cranks on that site
> too, and those were widely regarded as the best of their day.
Not by everyone... ;-)
> My point is not that Magic Motorcycle cranks were reliable or without
> noteworthy problems, but that their design successes exceeded their
> design shortcomings. That's why Shimano's, FSA's, and Truvativ's high
> end cranks are now copies of the Magic Motorcycle design.
Copies of a design known to be prone to catastrophic failure? Is that a
smart idea?
Looking at some Web sites I am not sure that your statement is in fact
correct. There are some fat-arm cranks from those manufacturers, but
Shimano's offering are very different from Pong's. The similarities may
be superficial; if, like Pong's, they are CNC'd from bar stock with all
kinds of stress risers (I mean, look at the inside of those things!)
then there's going to be a lot of failures.
There are external bearings all over the place now, which strike me as a
kludge in all their forms. They are just compensation for changes in BB
design to the cartridge type, because those are convenient (and cheaper)
for mass producers of bikes but result in smaller bearings and shorter
service life. And the average bike mechanic's inability to learn how to
use a hook spanner and pin tool to properly set bearing preload. As an
added benefit, the external bearings tend to result in a wider Q factor,
reducing pedaling efficiency, worsening cycling ergonomics for the
non-knock-kneed, increasing lateral loads on frames, etc.
There are splined BB axles, without a standard and no guarantee that
they will survive actual use.
> Campagnolo's high end cranks are now more nearly copies of the Sweet
> Wings design, which also was known for premature failure.
Hmmm.
I'll stick with my old cold-forged, solid, conservative cranks.
Tim McNamara
<4260e7a9-85d8-4b0f...@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
Frank, you're defending yourself against straw men. Why bother?
Andre Jute
> We're finally to the
> point where a dynamo and an LED headlamp can provide adequate light
> output for moderate pace riding.
You need to add another qualifier -- probably "at popular cost" -- to
make that statement stand up, Scharfie. As it stands it is not quite
true.
We've been at reasonable light for over ten years (halogen lamps, old
style hub dynamos and traditional sidewall generators), and at good
for probably a handful of years now, ever since the BUMM brought the
IQ fly to market (give us a date here, Clive, if you please). Even the
BUMM Cyo, a better light than was on cars within living memory (hell,
a better light than on many cars still on American roads), has been
out for a couple of years and is standard fitment on high-quality
bikes together with either SON or the better Shimano hub dynamos. In
short, we are already at the point where any more light output will
inconvenience other road users. All that remains is to make the hub
generator and the good optics to go with the LED cheaper through mass
production.
> I'd like to try one of the new Sanyo bottom bracket dynamos. Any chance
> of you getting some from Sanyo China and selling them in your store?
Don't do it, Andrew. Sidewall and bottom bracket generators are a
retrograde step. Responsible LBS will instead promote hub dynamos.
Michael Press
<705e1150-5e67-4744...@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
Jay Beattie <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> college kids on Varsities
Not a Schwinn Varsity however at the grocery store
I saw college age guy with a well maintained decent 70's bike,
which I complimented. He said his Dad rode it in college.
--
Michael Press