colnago vs cinelli
Brad Keeter
Supercorsa. I am going to choose one of these two framesets, of that I
am sure. The Colnago uses zona tubing and the cinelli uses neuron.
Which tubing is superior? I have heard that the Colnago ride is like
magic. What about the cinelli. Finish quality is important as well. Of
the two, which is the best bang for the buck? Thank you
Tim McNamara
Keeter <kee...@msn.com> wrote:
The best bike is the one that fits.
Differences between tubing of the same metal are infinitesimal (indeed,
there have been some road tests that found that the cheapest Columbus
tubing rode just as well as the top o' the line stuff, and that the
riders couldn;t tell which was which). Don't worry about it.
As far as the ride being "like magic," well that's too subjective an
area to tell you. Having ridden enough bikes, I find that one man's
"magic" ride is another man's boring (or twitchy, etc.). You just have
to ride it for yourself. Problem with buying a Colnago or a Cinelli is
that you probably *can't* test ride it.
Between these two bikes, it boils down to graphics, IMHO. Pick the one
with the paint you like the best.
Neacalban1
>area to tell you. Having ridden enough bikes, I find that one man's
>"magic" ride is another man's boring (or twitchy, etc.). You just have
>to ride it for yourself. Problem with buying a Colnago or a Cinelli is
>that you probably *can't* test ride it
Spend more money than you can afford on it, load it down with all titanium
parts, and it'll be magic- you'll convince yourself it must be a miracle that
it rides a whole lot better than your old bike.
I've ridden Colnagos for years, and while they're always nice, I like my
Bianchi Boron XL as much or more. any new bike you buy especially after 15
years, is always nicer than the old one.(well, most of the time, unless the fit
isnt good)
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Supercorsa. >>
Sizing is on opposite sides of the spectrum for certain sizes....
Which fits ya?
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl ST.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
Yuji Sakuma
I am probably not being very helpful but I think the Cinelli reputation
for superb frames was built upon the Supercorsa of the old steel frame
days. The finish I have seen on recent Cinellis has been, to say the
least, disappointing. No doubt Cino, Ernesto and the founders of all the
other famous makes sold out long ago to huge conglomerates with different
agendas then they had. If I were you, I would have a real good look at
one before buying it. I have no comment on Colnagos.
Regards,
Yuji Sakuma
=================================
Pierre L
if you're in North America, we have probably the finest small custom
framebuilder industry in the world. You can probably get something nicer for
cheaper.
Pierre
"Brad Keeter" <kee...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:abc77e18.01083...@posting.google.com...
Tim McNamara
<sak...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> I am probably not being very helpful but I think the Cinelli reputation
> for superb frames was built upon the Supercorsa of the old steel frame
> days. The finish I have seen on recent Cinellis has been, to say the
> least, disappointing. No doubt Cino, Ernesto and the founders of all the
> other famous makes sold out long ago to huge conglomerates with different
> agendas then they had. If I were you, I would have a real good look at
> one before buying it. I have no comment on Colnagos.
There are (or at least very recently were) Cinellis running the Cinelli
company. Ernesto Colnago is still the head honcho at Colnago. I don't
know if there are Bianchis running Bianchi any more.
Yuji Sakuma
Didn't the Supercorsa disappear for a while or has it been in continuous
production? I thought I had read somewhere years ago that Cinelli and Columbus
had both been taken out by the same very large company. I assumed, maybe
incorrectly, that the name was revived fairly recently to play on the legendary
history and applied to new frames which don't bear much resemblence to the
Columbus SL tubed Supercorsas. For whatever reason, the Cinelli frames I looked
at two or three years ago looked terrible. Maybe it was a bad initial
production run and they have improved lately. The new Supercorsas might have
shown up around the same time that I noticed that Cinelli stems and bars had
lost their beautiful old logos and now had cheap looking stamped names.
Yuji Sakuma
===============================
Tim McNamara
<sak...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Didn't the Supercorsa disappear for a while or has it been in
> continuous production? I thought I had read somewhere years ago that
> Cinelli and Columbus had both been taken out by the same very large
> company. I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that the name was revived
> fairly recently to play on the legendary history and applied to new
> frames which don't bear much resemblence to the Columbus SL tubed
> Supercorsas. For whatever reason, the Cinelli frames I looked at two
> or three years ago looked terrible. Maybe it was a bad initial
> production run and they have improved lately. The new Supercorsas
> might have shown up around the same time that I noticed that Cinelli
> stems and bars had lost their beautiful old logos and now had cheap
> looking stamped names.
Cinelli like many other makes has jumped on the aluminum bandwagon. It
is cheaper to fabricate, miter, weld, etc. And it's what the public
wants since they believe a pound of aluminum is lighter than a pound of
steel. The craftsmanship once seen is gone, as are most of the
craftsmen. My Ritchey Classic and my Rivendell are much better made
bicycles than anything offered from Italy, IMHO.
IIUC, Cinelli bars and stems are actually made under contract by
Technical Tubes Torino (the makers of 3ttt). They have moved away from
the nice old logos, saving I suppose a few cents per bar. I use Nitto
bars now on all my bikes save two- one with an old pair of Cinelli 65's
and the other a modern 66- an awful bar that isn't even the same shape
as the old 66.
Pierre L
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:010920012242134603%tim...@mac.com...> (snipped)
The new Supercorsas
> > might have shown up around the same time that I noticed that Cinelli
> > stems and bars had lost their beautiful old logos and now had cheap
> > looking stamped names.
>
> IIUC, Cinelli bars and stems are actually made under contract by
> Technical Tubes Torino (the makers of 3ttt). They have moved away from
> the nice old logos, saving I suppose a few cents per bar. I use Nitto
> bars now on all my bikes save two- one with an old pair of Cinelli 65's
> and the other a modern 66- an awful bar that isn't even the same shape
> as the old 66.
I was surprised and a bit disappointed recently when I bought a new 3TTT
Morphe handlebar. Gone are the nice engraved logos that were on all my
previous 3TTT bars, replaced by painted-on ones. Even the adjustment hash
marks near the stem have already rubbed off after just a few adjustments.
Visually at least, not the quality and sex appeal you used to get from
Italy. This is why in another post in this thread I suggested looking at
some North American framebuilders, for the price you have to pay for a
really very ordinary Italian machine, you can get a pretty nice bike
custom-made.
Pierre
Qui si parla Campagnolo
company. Ernesto Colnago is still the head honcho at Colnago. I don't
know if there are Bianchis running Bianchi any more. >>
Not necessarily a good thing, look what's happened to DeRosa with Ugo still the
'capo'.
Steven L. Sheffield
Cinelli is owned by Gruppo SpA, which is run by Antonio Colombo ... and
has been since 1978.
http://www.cinelli.it/english/history/index.htm
Gruppo SpA also owns and operates Columbus and 3TTT
In article <010920011637090986%tim...@mac.com>,
A Muzi
>>
>> > I am about to purchase either a Colnago Classic or a Cinelli
>> > Supercorsa. I am going to choose one of these two framesets, of that I
>> > am sure. The Colnago uses zona tubing and the cinelli uses neuron.
>> > Which tubing is superior? I have heard that the Colnago ride is like
>> > magic. What about the cinelli. Finish quality is important as well. Of
>> > the two, which is the best bang for the buck? Thank you
>
>
> I am probably not being very helpful but I think the Cinelli reputation
> for superb frames was built upon the Supercorsa of the old steel frame
> days. The finish I have seen on recent Cinellis has been, to say the
> least, disappointing. No doubt Cino, Ernesto and the founders of all the
> other famous makes sold out long ago to huge conglomerates with different
> agendas then they had. If I were you, I would have a real good look at
> one before buying it. I have no comment on Colnagos.
Yuji makes a good point. Moreover, the classic Cinellis (I was lucky to hold
a Rome Olympics Cinelli and have seen many mid-60s bikes) when parked next to
a modern bike looks shabby. The "immaculate" and "clean" work is only
passable by our current standards.
Albert Eisentraut, among others, raised the bar . It was the influence of
Americans in the market, who demanded and paid for better work, that pushed
the industry at the top end.
I like the classic bikes and they ride very well but when you focus on
aesthetics you'll have to agree that Bayliss, Columbine, Sachs, Waterford and
Rivendell show superior finish work. (Please don't chastise me for leaving
out your favorite, this is not a complete list). It's not that Cinellis have
slipped so much as that others have excelled.
--
Yellow Jersey, Ltd
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tim McNamara
<pier...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I was surprised and a bit disappointed recently when I bought a new 3TTT
> Morphe handlebar. Gone are the nice engraved logos that were on all my
> previous 3TTT bars, replaced by painted-on ones. Even the adjustment hash
> marks near the stem have already rubbed off after just a few adjustments.
> Visually at least, not the quality and sex appeal you used to get from
> Italy. This is why in another post in this thread I suggested looking at
> some North American framebuilders, for the price you have to pay for a
> really very ordinary Italian machine, you can get a pretty nice bike
> custom-made.
I quite agree with your assessment. IMHO most of the Italian makers
are pretty much trading on their name but the bikes leave a lot to be
desired. I've had a chance to ride top-drawer examples from most of
the major Italian marques, and my Ritchey and my Riv are both better
handling and better made bikes. Of course, the Riv now costs as much
or more than a Colnago and a Ritchey Road Classic is in the price
ballpark with the big Italian C as well.
But it's different strokes for different folks. I have a friend who
bought his Colnago (?Dream?) when he lived in Belgium and loves it.
He's been absolutely delighted with it for several years. Another
friend of mine owns a half-dozen Fondriests and swear by 'em. Whatever
makes you happy on your bike is what to ride.
Tim McNamara
L. Sheffield <ste...@veloworks.com> wrote:
> Cinelli is owned by Gruppo SpA, which is run by Antonio Colombo ... and
> has been since 1978.
>
> http://www.cinelli.it/english/history/index.htm
>
> Gruppo SpA also owns and operates Columbus and 3TTT
>
> http://www.gruppospa.com/
Well there you have it. Thanks, Steven.
A Muzi
The Bianchi family, ardent Fascists who supported Mussolini and won crooked war
materiel contracts, including failure prone aircraft engines that killed
Italian pilots, emigrated to Australia incognito after the war. Among their
effects was the famous film of Fausto Coppi as a young amateur. (See the
coffee-table book "History of Bianchi").
Bianchi _does_ still retain Felice GImondi in the Reparto Corse.
Maurizio
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010902094010...@mb-mr.aol.com...
> Not necessarily a good thing, look what's happened to DeRosa with Ugo
still the
> 'capo'.
I suppose you don't like De Rosa latest frames with plenty of carbon rear
stays and esotheric alloys, though De Rosa still builds old fashioned lugged
steel frames with unicrown steel forks.
Is it right?
A long time ago, when Ugo De Rosa presented his first aluminum frame, the
Planet, I read about his discussion with Tom Ritchey.
This was reported as follows:
TR (looking at the Alu frame): Well, Ugo, why did you make it?
UDR (using a typical italian expression): Because I have to eat
[translation: because I can't go on selling only steel frames when everyone
wants to buy aluminum ones]
Ugo then explained that he started producing alu frames later than other
manufacturers because "I had to study the new alloy, and didn't want to
produce an alu frame just because everyone is doing it, forgetting the ride
quality and reliability of a De Rosa"
Ciao
Maurizio
Bologna, Italy
Qui si parla Campagnolo
is cheaper to fabricate, miter, weld, etc. And it's what the public
wants since they believe a pound of aluminum is lighter than a pound of
steel. >>
Very good!!!
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Rivendell show superior finish work. (Please don't chastise me for leaving
out your favorite, this is not a complete list). >>
Not chastising but must mention Mark Nobilette, VERY local to Boulder/Denver.
Has some of the prettiest fillet brazing known and makes gorgeous lugged steel
framesets...I have one-better ride than all the DeRosas I have had...
Qui si parla Campagnolo
rear
stays and esotheric alloys, though De Rosa still builds old fashioned lugged
steel frames with unicrown steel forks.
Is it right? >>
Do not, along with about 98% of the Italian and Belgium frame makers...
No more lugged steel and flat fork crowns, even by Ugo, AFAIK...unless
available in Italia only...certainly not imported. NO steel DeRosas imported by
Sinclair...
I agree that aluminum is popular now but it is lost on me why DeRosa doesn't
make a few lugged steel framesets. Torelli/Mondonico has had some of their best
years recently, selling only steel....
Happy to see Merckx is re-introducing the Corsa and MX Leader...
<< "I had to study the new alloy, and didn't want to
produce an alu frame just because everyone is doing it, forgetting the ride
quality and reliability of a De Rosa" >>
????
Pierre L
Well, if we're going to be mentioning local ones, it's pretty hard to beat
Bertrand in Hull, Quebec.
Pierre
NotOutRiding
>make a few lugged steel framesets.
They do, just not imported into the US.
Torelli/Mondonico has had some of their
>best
>years recently, selling only steel....
They also sell aluminum alloy frames, going back several years with Alan and
other frame producers.
Max.
Maurizio
> Do not, along with about 98% of the Italian and Belgium frame makers...
>
> No more lugged steel and flat fork crowns, even by Ugo, AFAIK...unless
> available in Italia only...certainly not imported. NO steel DeRosas
imported by
> Sinclair...
www.derosa.it/star.htm
www.derosa.it/neo_primato.htm
Probably they're not imported.
Ciao
Maurizio
Pierre L
different Bertrand shops since the past few years), at least all the lugged
ones are designed by Gilles Bertrand and the frames built by Marinoni. I
have one of these, and they are impeccable. The craftsmanship and lug filing
on these seems superior to the production Marinoni's, and is truly
second-to-none (but I may be biased). Mine doesn't say Marinoni anywhere on
it, but it's no secret that Marinoni builds them (the warranty is from
Marinoni in fact). I have seen some that have the Marinoni name painted on
the seat tube though. But there is no Marinoni production equivalent to the
sport touring bike I have, sort of a cross between a Turismo and a Ciclo.
But he also does flawless fillet-brazed ones. Not sure if these are actually
built at the other Bertrand facility in Hull (the original one), since
that's what they were famous for. The Cyclosportif shop (Gilles & Michel
Bertrand) doesn't have its own manufacturing facility.
Pierre
"R. Himm" <no...@none.none> wrote in message
news:none-ya02358000...@news.microtec.net...
> In article <zZLk7.10528$v%4.96...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Pierre L"
> <pier...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Well, if we're going to be mentioning local ones, it's pretty hard to
beat
> > Bertrand in Hull, Quebec.
>
>
> Does Bertrand actually braze them in his shop or does he just spec them
and
> have Marinoni do it for them?
Steven L. Sheffield
vecc...@aol.com (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:
> Maurizio<< I suppose you don't like De Rosa latest frames with plenty of
> carbon
> rear
> stays and esotheric alloys, though De Rosa still builds old fashioned lugged
> steel frames with unicrown steel forks.
> Is it right? >>
>
> Do not, along with about 98% of the Italian and Belgium frame makers...
>
> No more lugged steel and flat fork crowns, even by Ugo, AFAIK...unless
> available in Italia only...certainly not imported. NO steel DeRosas imported
> by
> Sinclair...
Sinclair is not bringing in any of the Neo-Primatos? Lugged steel ...
but with a unicrown fork.
Pierre L
had in mind when I walked in the Bertrand shop the first time.
My frame looks similar to the Turismo, but instead of Columbus SPX tubing,
it has lugged Brain OS, which is a bit lighter.
Also:
Really nice-looking Cinelli-type Columbus sloping crown fork
Longer chainstays than a normal road bike
Extended head tube for higher handlebar position if desired
Full set of braze-ons for fenders and rear rack
Clearance for fenders with 25mm tires (700c), but, since I don't use fenders
anyway, I specified regular Campy dual-pivot brakes (I would say it would
easily accommodate 28mm tires though, without fenders)
Complete, Campy Veloce 9-speed triple group with Ergo shifters (including
hubs, headset, etc.)
Ambrosio Balance rims with DT spokes
3TTT handlebar.
Selle San Marco leather-covered touring saddle (very comfy).
Cost about $1900 Canadian in 1998, not including taxes.
What I asked for basically was a light day-touring bike, and I said I
intended to set my handlebars to the same height as the saddle. I
intentionally limited myself by specifying the Campy brakes, but the same
frame could easily have been built for canti's.
When you want to buy a road bike, Gilles himself sizes you up on the fit
cycle. Then, sees if a stock Marinoni would do the trick. If not, or if the
customer really wants a custom, then you get measured from head to toe.
Plus, he fits you on the bike itself when you take delivery 12 weeks later.
It's really one heck of a bargain for a custom-made road bike, and it really
does fit like a glove.
As far as I know, with Marinoni's, you can only buy them from dealers that
can do a proper fitting, or you can go to the factory itself near Montreal.
If you like, email me and I can send you a picture.
Pierre
"R. Himm" <no...@none.none> wrote in message
news:none-ya02358000...@news.microtec.net...
> Thanks for the info. Could you describe your sport touring model a little
> more (geometry, clearances for what tires, and umm, rough price range even
> maybe)? Sounds perhaps like an Audax bike? I have a friend looking to get
a
> new bike, and I think she needs something like a Rivendell
> Atlantis/AllRounder, perhaps without the need for such huge tires and wide
> chainstays. I was thinking of either Ryffranck in Sherbrooke, a Marinoni
> turismo (through a dealer I guess it has to be, perhaps it can't be
> customized suitably), or something from Bertrand.
>
>
>
> In article <xrPk7.5546$A24.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Pierre L"
Twobooglie
>can do a proper fitting, or you can go to the factory itself near Montreal
actually, you can get Marinoni's direct from the factory - even over the phone,
if you don't have a dealer near you. I bought a custom-built Marinoni track
bike over the phone with their US office (in Vermont, I believe). They told me
what measurments they needed, and with the help of a friend, I gave my
measurements over the phone, told them what features I wanted, what color
paint, what I wanted chromed, etc. etc. About a month or two later, they
shipped me a beautiful frame -- exactly what I'd ordered. And at a great price,
too.
Pierre L
that way in Canada too.
Like everyone else it seems, Marinoni has moved to aluminum frames. I hope
they keep up the traditional steel operation too.
Pierre
"Twobooglie" <twobo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010903191913...@mb-mp.aol.com...
Qui si parla Campagnolo
with Alan and
other frame producers.
>>
Small 's' in sell. They don't sell a bunch of them. They do sell a bunch od
steel ones(as do we)-
Qui si parla Campagnolo
...
but with a unicrown fork. >>
Not in 2001, we'll see at the 'show'. I think more importers and manufacturers
will have steel this year than last as the aluminum 'trend' slackens. Hi tech
steel is in the offering from Dedachai(sp?), Columbus, Reynolds, Oria...A 3
pound or so frameset is not hard at all.
Pierre L
Turismo can. The stock version is under 2000$CDN, depending on what group is
on it. Plus they will customise any way the customer wants for a slight
upcharge. If I were on the eastern seabord of the U.S., I might look at a
Peter White frame. Don't know how it would work out in costs, but I wouldn't
mind a Bob Jackson from the UK, or a Thorn Audax. For me, anything in
Reynold 531 or any flavour of Columbus SL, as long as it's lugged, and
doesn't have a threadless headset (despite Fabrizio's comments that this is
so passé). I can also live with True Temper.
Pierre
"R. Himm" <no...@none.none> wrote in message
news:none-ya02358000...@news.microtec.net...
>
> Thanks for the info. I actually saw one of his bikes once, much like yours
> in concept (down to the Veloce components) except TIG welded. I think I
may
> have a chance to drop by the shop before the winter.
>
> I also have seen a few Ryffrancks over the years. They weren't fancy but
> they were very clean. For anything other than racing or straight touring,
I
> guess you have to know exactly what you want, but they seem to be very
good
> values.
>
>
> I think my friend would be best with something that could take 35-37mm
> tires plus fenders, yet otherwise be roady, like those Rivendells. I
> certainly haven't seen any stock bikes around here that are the right
idea.
>
>
>
> In article <MDSk7.11838$836.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Pierre L"
Twobooglie
>they keep up the traditional steel operation too.
>
So far, they still do - mine was built with nice, simple lugs and Columbus SPX
tubing - I was told by the guy in the US office (can't remember his name right
now) that they're one of the few builders still working with the "skinny" tubes
like SL, SLX, etc.
But you're right - they do have a lot more aluminum nowadays. Hopefully they
will continue with steel, even if it's only a few special orders.
Al Kaf'r
so-called "prestigious" brands are all built on hype. Pro riders that
use these components all do so because they are payed to use them, not
because they are superior.
On 03 Sep 2001 13:36:50 GMT, vecc...@aol.com (Qui si parla