Today's Ride

[Tom Kunich]

Did another 1,800 feet of climbing and 30 miles. Now in the last 12 months I've put in just short of 5,000 miles and 81,000 feet of climbing. If most of the hill roads around here hadn't been damaged to the point of shutting them down I would have at least twice that climbing if not three times.

I started out feeling pretty good and 11 minutes after I rolled out I was climbing a 600 foot climb. because I was feeling good I was riding pretty fast. Down the backside of that hill and up the next and by the top of that one I was getting tired. This time I timed it just right and had a green light at the 10% climb up to the top of a the hard drop down to Cull Canyon. I was missing all of the rain but the roads were wet where ever there was shadow. And puddles in the low spots on the road.

By the time I got in the 6 miles to the top of Cull Canyon I was shot. The fine adjust on the Di2 is off and in low gear it was making noise. My previous Di2 bikes had short arm derailleurs and you could look from the back and see if it was aligned. This long arm derailleur cannot be set that way. The derailleur is in the way of looking at the chain and the arm is too long. So because of the flex you can't tell if it is properly aligned except with trial and error. Or if you have one of those old Park Work stands with the really heavy base so that you can put some pressure on the pedals while you're trying to adjust it.

And while we're at it the Garmin heart monitor really sucks. The battery life is about two or three days. Since you only need it to test your heart rates on the hard stuff for a day or two I suppose this is OK. I simply won't use it anymore since I can now judge my heart rate by my breathing and the pressure in my eyes.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 15:26:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>And while we're at it the Garmin heart monitor really sucks. The battery life is about two or three days. Since you only need it to test your heart rates on the hard stuff for a day or two I suppose this is OK. I simply won't use it anymore since I can now judge my heart rate by my breathing and the pressure in my eyes.

<https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/p/649059>
"And don't worry about running out of juice. The battery lasts for up
to 3.5 years".

If you're only getting a day or two, there's something wrong. I've
seen short CR2032 cell life in computers and keyfobs caused by expired
or junk cells which I bought on eBay. However, even those lasted more
than a "day or two".

My guess(tm) is that you're lying about the CR2032 cells dying so
quickly and are using your alleged battery problem as an excuse to not
record your heart rate. I've seen this before with friends who think
they might have a heart condition. They don't want to see any
evidence of heart problems because treatment might affect their
lifestyle. When I first suspected I was having heart problems in
2001, I did the same thing.

Another possibility is that you don't own a heart rate monitor and are
lying.

So, what's your secret method of monitoring the pressure in your eyes
without instruments?
<https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/glaucoma/symptoms-causes/syc-20372839>
"Elevated eye pressure happens as the result of a buildup of fluid
that flows throughout the inside of the eye... When the eye makes too
much fluid or the drainage system doesn't work properly, eye pressure
may increase."




--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Tue, 10 Oct 2023 16:37:31 -0700 schrieb Jeff Liebermann
<je...@cruzio.com>:

>On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 15:26:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>And while we're at it the Garmin heart monitor really sucks. The battery life is about two or three days. Since you only need it to test your heart rates on the hard stuff for a day or two I suppose this is OK. I simply won't use it anymore since I can now judge my heart rate by my breathing and the pressure in my eyes.
>
><https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/p/649059>
>"And don't worry about running out of juice. The battery lasts for up
>to 3.5 years".
>
>If you're only getting a day or two, there's something wrong. I've
>seen short CR2032 cell life in computers and keyfobs caused by expired
>or junk cells which I bought on eBay. However, even those lasted more
>than a "day or two".

I received an HRM-Dual as part of a package with an Edge 1030 Plus in
early February 2022 and used it until the end of August, averaging about
every other day. I didn't like it because for some reason it sometimes
didn't capture my heart rate, even if I applied some salt water
beforehand, and because it caused mild skin irritation when worn for
hours. Suspecting a bad 2023, I even checked and replaced it to be on
the safe side. But the replaced cell was as good as the new one, and the
strap still works, sort of. Perhaps a somewhat atypical rib cage - some
ribs were broken years ago - is part of the problem causing intermittent
failures.

Currently, I'm using a rechargeable optical Polar Verity Sense HRM,
which is about as easy to use as a lightweight wristwatch.

>
>My guess(tm) is that you're lying about the CR2032 cells dying so
>quickly and are using your alleged battery problem as an excuse to not
>record your heart rate. I've seen this before with friends who think
>they might have a heart condition. They don't want to see any
>evidence of heart problems because treatment might affect their
>lifestyle. When I first suspected I was having heart problems in
>2001, I did the same thing.

How does your heart rate monitor tell you about having or not having
heart problems?

I'm using mine mostly to have a second opinion about the intensity of my
riding around. In addition, a lot of what Garmin Connect secretes as
motivational is utter garbage, but the estimated necessary recovery
times are surprisingly good, for example.


--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

[Lou Holtman]

Two three days? There is definitely something wrong. Use my Garmin HRM for 10-12 hours a week year round. I change the battery once a year. Why is adjusting your Di2 RD so hard? You can take of the chain to eyeball initial adjustment and then fine tune it while riding by the sound it makes. Put in 5th gear, push the little button until LED goes solid red and then start riding and push the gear change switches up/down until satisfied with the sound the chain makes. An other way is while riding judge if the chain is moving easier to a lower gear or a higher gear. Stop and put the RD in adjusting mode (red solid led) and adjust accordingly with one or two clicks.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 03:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

My experience with the Garmin chest strap HRM was that it didn't work
right if you put it on with the sensor area on the bottom rather than
the top. I thought that thing was very uncomfortable, now I have a
Garmin Fenix 5 that moniters my heart rate.

[Lou Holtman]

Everybody has his/her own preference. Mine works without any issues.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Think about this for a minute. The average heart rate on a ride is over 100 bpm and one of my rides is 4 hours. That is 100 x 240 or 24000 transmission spikes per ride or more.

You can clearly see why Liebermann couldn't get a job as an EE. He hasn't even a clue about energy when a 2023 has only 210 mAh's of energy and he doesn't even know that a 2023 will self discharge in less time than his 3.5 years to below the critical 2 volt range.

He simply cannot keep his stupidity from showing. Especially when I have TWO Garmin heart rate monitors and they have about the same discharge rate.

[Roger Meriman]

None of my roadie club mates seem to have this problem, lasts years.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I have TWO Garmin heart rate monitors. I use them at least 12 hours a week and I replace the batteries about once every two or three weeks. (I see I said days above) Not because they are registering low or oddly but because they do not show AT ALL. So I don't know where you're getting 2023's because I use Duracell batteries and not Chinese replicas. Both heart rate monitors act the same way. Perhaps my 830 is insensitive to the heart rate monitor but they do pick up the cadence and speed sensors without any problem. I haven't kept track of how long between battery changes for those but it sure as hell isn't a year. And it is the same receiver.

As for the fine adjustment. I follow your procedure and I either go in the wrong direction or too far in the right direction. I have it working properly on the front changer but the rear is making noise all of the time. Mind you, on the stand it is quiet but under load it makes noise. Since the short arm rear derailleurs didn't do this I can only assume that it is flex in the long arm. Or maybe wear in the idler pullies. I will check those out today. Seems like a place for wear.

[Ted Heise]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:26:39 -0700 (PDT),
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 3:41:16???AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

> > On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:26:37???AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Did another 1,800 feet of climbing and 30 miles. Now in the
> > > last 12 months I've put in just short of 5,000 miles and
> > > 81,000 feet of climbing. If most of the hill roads around
> > > here hadn't been damaged to the point of shutting them down
> > > I would have at least twice that climbing if not three
> > > times.

Still, quite respectable totals, at least to my mind.

> > > And while we're at it the Garmin heart monitor really sucks.
> > > The battery life is about two or three days. Since you only
> > > need it to test your heart rates on the hard stuff for a day
> > > or two I suppose this is OK. I simply won't use it anymore
> > > since I can now judge my heart rate by my breathing and the
> > > pressure in my eyes.

> > Two three days? There is definitely something wrong. Use my
> > Garmin HRM for 10-12 hours a week year round. I change the
> > battery once a year.

> I have TWO Garmin heart rate monitors. I use them at least 12
> hours a week and I replace the batteries about once every two or
> three weeks. (I see I said days above) Not because they are
> registering low or oddly but because they do not show AT ALL.

Tom, this is a bit unclear to me. When you say they do not show
AT ALL, I assume you mean you get no heart rate reading on the
Garmin Edge display. Assuming that's correct, do you get readings
when you put in fresh batteries and they stop after a time of use,
or are you getting no readings even with fresh batteries? Your
descriptions sounds as if it's the latter, but I don't understand
why you would keep putting in new batteries if none of them make a
signal.

FWIW, I had problems with getting a reliable heart rate display a
few months ago, and finally resolved them by using a new chest
strap. It sounds as if you have two straps and neither works, but
I suppose it's not impossible they could both be bad.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:00:43 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

> Think about this for a minute. The average heart rate on a ride is over 100 bpm and one of my rides is 4 hours. That is 100 x 240 or 24000 transmission spikes per ride or more.
>
> You can clearly see why Liebermann couldn't get a job as an EE. He hasn't even a clue about energy when a 2023 has only 210 mAh's of energy and he doesn't even know that a 2023 will self discharge in less time than his 3.5 years to below the critical 2 volt range.
>
> He simply cannot keep his stupidity from showing. Especially when I have TWO Garmin heart rate monitors and they have about the same discharge rate.

Think about how stupid it is to produce a HRM with only a battery life of 2-3 days. And you have two of them? Geezz.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:26:42 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 3:41:16 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:26:37 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Did another 1,800 feet of climbing and 30 miles. Now in the last 12 months I've put in just short of 5,000 miles and 81,000 feet of climbing. If most of the hill roads around here hadn't been damaged to the point of shutting them down I would have at least twice that climbing if not three times.
> > >
> > > I started out feeling pretty good and 11 minutes after I rolled out I was climbing a 600 foot climb. because I was feeling good I was riding pretty fast. Down the backside of that hill and up the next and by the top of that one I was getting tired. This time I timed it just right and had a green light at the 10% climb up to the top of a the hard drop down to Cull Canyon. I was missing all of the rain but the roads were wet where ever there was shadow. And puddles in the low spots on the road.
> > >
> > > By the time I got in the 6 miles to the top of Cull Canyon I was shot. The fine adjust on the Di2 is off and in low gear it was making noise. My previous Di2 bikes had short arm derailleurs and you could look from the back and see if it was aligned. This long arm derailleur cannot be set that way. The derailleur is in the way of looking at the chain and the arm is too long. So because of the flex you can't tell if it is properly aligned except with trial and error. Or if you have one of those old Park Work stands with the really heavy base so that you can put some pressure on the pedals while you're trying to adjust it.
> > >
> > > And while we're at it the Garmin heart monitor really sucks. The battery life is about two or three days. Since you only need it to test your heart rates on the hard stuff for a day or two I suppose this is OK. I simply won't use it anymore since I can now judge my heart rate by my breathing and the pressure in my eyes.
> > Two three days? There is definitely something wrong. Use my Garmin HRM for 10-12 hours a week year round. I change the battery once a year. Why is adjusting your Di2 RD so hard? You can take of the chain to eyeball initial adjustment and then fine tune it while riding by the sound it makes. Put in 5th gear, push the little button until LED goes solid red and then start riding and push the gear change switches up/down until satisfied with the sound the chain makes. An other way is while riding judge if the chain is moving easier to a lower gear or a higher gear. Stop and put the RD in adjusting mode (red solid led) and adjust accordingly with one or two clicks.
> >
> > Lou
> I have TWO Garmin heart rate monitors. I use them at least 12 hours a week and I replace the batteries about once every two or three weeks. (I see I said days above) Not because they are registering low or oddly but because they do not show AT ALL. So I don't know where you're getting 2023's because I use Duracell batteries and not Chinese replicas.

I use Varta, not 2023 but 2032.

Both heart rate monitors act the same way. Perhaps my 830 is insensitive to the heart rate monitor but they do pick up the cadence and speed sensors without any problem. I haven't kept track of how long between battery changes for those but it sure as hell isn't a year. And it is the same receiver.

It make no sense to me.

>
> As for the fine adjustment. I follow your procedure and I either go in the wrong direction or too far in the right direction. I have it working properly on the front changer but the rear is making noise all of the time. Mind you, on the stand it is quiet but under load it makes noise. Since the short arm rear derailleurs didn't do this I can only assume that it is flex in the long arm. Or maybe wear in the idler pullies. I will check those out today. Seems like a place for wear.

Long arm or short arm doesn't matter only the upper pulley counts. Again it makes no sense to me. Check hanger alignment

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:26:39 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>So I don't know where you're getting 2023's

It's a CR2032 cell, not a "2023".
20 = diameter in mm.
32 = thickness in tenths of mm. In this case 32 = 3.2 mm
A CR2016 will fit and with luck might work, but it won't last very
long.

>because I use Duracell batteries and not Chinese replicas.

I avoid Duracell because of problems I've had with their alkaline
cells leaking and doing damage. CR2032 button cells are Lithium
Manganese Dioxide (LiMn02) and do not leak (much). I've also seen
other problems with Duracell batteries:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/index.html>
Unfortunately, Duracell are not the only manufacturer that has had
problems:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>

For repairing computers and calculators, I routinely replace the
CR2032 cells on the motherboard and in laptops. I have several button
cell battery testers. They're cheap enough:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=button+cell+battery+tester&tbm=isch>
I also use a common DVM (digital volt meter). Anything under 2.8VDC
gets recycled.

I've been buying CR2032 cells on eBay for about 20 years. I've found
that some of the "name brand" cells on eBay were counterfeit. Cells
without expiration codes should be considered past their prime.
However, button cells normally do NOT include a DOM (date of
manufacture) or expiration date. While all cells that I've purchased
produce about 3.1V on arrival, the bad cells don't last very long. To
test for that, I sacrifice a cell and run a discharge test with a
rather high current load (because I don't want to wait months for the
test results). Typically, about 2ma.

Scroll to near bottom of page for what to expect from a typical
(Panasonic) CR2032 cell:
"Low current discharge of batteries"
<https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteriesLowCurrentDischarge%20UK.html>
I use a pulsed constant current load, but a simple resistor should be
close enough. Data sheet:
<https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/cr2032.pdf>

Incidentally, I was able to obtain a refund for two different orders
of defective cells. I now order a small quantity for testing. If
they are acceptable, I typically order more in quantities of 100. At
about $0.20/ea, this is not a major investment. Typically, half the
order goes to friends and friends or friends. This was my last order:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/182986546499>
The cells did not have a DOM or expiration date. I asked for and
received a document (in Chinese) indicating they had been produced
about three months prior to my purchase in Jan 2023. Good enough.

If you keep a spare CR2032 cell in your bicycle emergency kit, it will
likely be dead a few weeks after you try to use it. Batteries are
meant to be stored in a cool dry place. The typical bicycle emergency
kit doesn't even come close. I had the same problem when I was
carrying spare cells in my car. I now voltage test them every year
and replace as needed.

[Tom Kunich]

My mistake - yes they are a 2032 battery. But the capacity is what I said and they have a 2% self discharge rate. The critical voltage point is 2 V and it starts at 3 V to 3.4 V. Pulsing a transmitter as often as a heart beat while not taking a great deal of power, does take power and while you're sitting in the coffee stop the heart rate monitor is still running.

I went down into the garage and checked your suggestions. There is NO flex in the the arms or excessive wiggle in the upper idler pulley. The hanger is perfectly straight and I tried to use the fine adjustment and got a flashing red light which I think means that the battery isn't up to it. Perhaps this is what has been happening - the "tested capacity" battery probably isn't holding a charge and so it is only working with a full charge. Since I don't look at the light when I'm on the road attempting to fine adjust maybe it isn't moving and so it stays out of adjustment. Time for a new New battery.

[Jeff Liebermann]

OK. Let's assume that I don't know what I'm doing. How about you
providing the necessary calculations to determine how long a CR2032
cell will last? You claim to be an engineer, so demonstrate it. You
were close on the battery capacity at 210 ma-hr. The data sheet says
235 ma-hr but that's down to 2.0V. I don't know at what voltage the
transmit power is reduced to the point where the receiver can't hear
it. Data sheets:
<https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/maxell_cr2032_datasheet.pdf>
<https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/cr2032.pdf>
<https://www.duracell.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/CR2032JCS0820.pdf>
Note that the pulsed characteristics are very different from the
continuous load characteristics.

I don't know the current drain, rate, or transmission time for your
unspecified model Garmin heart rate monitor, but you can measure that
yourself. Since both of your heart rate monitors "have about the same
discharge rate" you must have already measured the necessary current,
duty cycle and operating life.

So, fill in the blanks and show your calculations and sources. Let me
see what kind of engineering you can do. Approximations are fine if
you can't do the measurments. If I don't see anything for about a
week, I'll post something and do it for you.

[Tom Kunich]

The Garmin connects to its sensors with ANT+ protocol. The capture rate of data is approximately 25% or higher failure rate. The cost PER BIT is about 50 uA. Once a sensor is paired, the sensor sends a message at 4800 baud (bits per second) whether there is any new information or not. The MINIMUM message length is approximately 40 bits so your heart rate monitor is probably draining your battery at about 1/100th of its capacity per message if the message was entirely "1" bits. I don't know how often the sensor sends a message but it is critical to power drain and it must be often enough to update the display on the Garmin often enough for you to see changes. So I expect it to be every couple of seconds. 30 times per minute is 120 times per hour or 480 times on a four hour ride. 40 bits @ 50 uA is one one hundredth of the capacity of a 2032.

So HOW is it that it doesn't drain the battery in a fraction of a ride? Because although the message is actually 40 bits long it is a length and not a bit. Only a "1" counts as a transmission. And "0's" are missing spots in the TIME of transmission. And most of the bits are zeros. The 150 beats per minute contains only 4 ones 1001 0110. The header is likely a 1000 0000 and the tail 0000 0001. The actual sensor ID depends on the manner in which Garmin handles it so it is likely to be in a manner that uses the least power.

In any case, ANT+ while not power hungry certainly isn't cheap. Going through the numbers I can plainly see why I am replacing batteries every couple of weeks.

The question is - exactly how are you getting a YEAR out of the battery

[Lou Holtman]

By just using my HRM like many like me. You are the exception not me like in many other cases. Tell us why you are draining a battery in just a couple of weeks?

Lou

[Mark Cleary]

I ride with my Garmin HRM all the time. I have the better one with the strap that allows the pod attached to the strap with snap buttons. I use it everyday pretty much and probably average 20 hours a week of it on me. I wear it walking too. I change the battery about every 6 months. If I was changing a battery every few weeks I would ditch the HRM.

Heart rate is a very good indicator of your body working and recovery. In my case the lower my HR is over the ride generally the more tired I am. When I rest and take days off I go faster on the bike and my HR is higher. I average about 104-120 bpm on any given day. For me to get heart rate above 145 I have to be really working to the max. My age is 62.
Deacon mark
Deacon Mark

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't have a dog in this fight, since I eschew most bike electronics.
But it does seem odd that yet again, Tom is having a problem that nobody
else seems to have.

So many problems!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Sounds right. Like I said Tom is the exception. I have this one

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Garmin/Premium-HRM-Dual-ANT-Bluetooth-Heart-Rate-Chest-Strap-p72373/

In the spec it says a battery life of 3.5 year when used 1 hour per day. That would be 3.5*365*1=1277 hrs. We are in week number 41 now so I used my HRM around 400-450 hr this year. Well within the battery life spec.

Lou

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Wed, 11 Oct 2023 09:28:14 -0700 schrieb Jeff Liebermann
<je...@cruzio.com>:

>On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:26:39 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So I don't know where you're getting 2023's
>
>It's a CR2032 cell, not a "2023".

He most probably copied my typo from
<82icii1sqk7b7ggu0...@4ax.com>. I didn't have time to
correct my mistake and comment on his funny calculation. Maybe tomorrow.
The weather was way too nice today, so we were outside on our bikes all
day.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

[Tom Kunich]

That says "premium" and it doesn't look like mine which are both HRM1G and have a different type of belt on them. Are you sure that it uses 2032 batteries since ANT+ uses power as I explained. If your sensor has an address with mostly zero's it would reduce the power usage but I wouldn't expect it to considering that both my other sensors use up batteries pretty rapidly also. I have a drawer on my computer table where I keep batteries for all of my battery powered devices and at the moment I have 12 spares for the 2032 devices like the three on my Garmin sensors.

[Tom Kunich]

Liebermann isn't smart enough to spot a typo and always has to comment on them. It is like listening to a 2 year old that had someone take his pudding away from him.

[Tom Kunich]

You know, I should add that they can cut power usage largely by reducing the reply time. If they only send the heart rate date once a minute - which is all you really need it unless you're staring at the HR monitor, you can really reduce the power use. That is a trick I used in a lot of battery powered devices. They could also reduce power use by dropping the transmit power. Your chest is directly adjacent to the display so a high power output is not needed. That is a trick I used on the battery powered swimming pool leak detector. It had LED's that would change color for the battery state but they were using more power than the ANT transmitter so I used pulse width modulation to reduce the power to the LED. It would turn red or green and I also modulated it to turn orange so that you could tell when it was getting close to needing a recharge.

There are a lot of tricks you can play IF you aren't constrained by the standard.

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 09:28:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

No Jeff, you have it all wrong. 1. Tom has problems with his Heart
Rate Monitor. 2. No one else has problems with their HRM.

Thus the evidence is irrefutable! Heart Rate Monitors are junk and
marketing this junk is fraud.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:40:19 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>1. Tom has problems with his Heart Rate Monitor.
>2. No one else has problems with their HRM.

Actually, there are others with various heart rate monitors that are
having low battery life problems:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=heart+rate+monitor+low+battery+life>
I've read about 24 such complaints and have some guesses(tm) as to
what might be happening. One interesting observations is the very few
of the complaints are accompanied by voltage or current measurements
and none include an oscilloscope trace showing the repetition rate
(frequency) and duty cycle (% of time it's drawing power).

I should do some more research, but I just returned from visit to
Harbor Freight and returned with some new toys. I prefer to play with
these instead of researching Tom's HRM problems:
<https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-flux-125-amp-welder-57861.html>
<https://www.harborfreight.com/blue-design-auto-darkening-welding-helmet-61610.html>
<https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-drive-59-59-ft-lb-digital-torque-adapter-58705.html>
<https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ft-x-6-ft-fiberglass-welding-blanket-67833.html>
etc...

>Thus the evidence is irrefutable! Heart Rate Monitors are junk and
>marketing this junk is fraud.

Is all this a conspiracy to defraud the public of their entitlement of
battery life by the Democrats or Republicans?
Is Dr Fauci behind all these low battery life problems?
Is AI the answer to every problem?

What Tom really wants from me:
"How to die while arc welding at home: the top 5 ways"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hAJJky4KAQ>
"5 more excellent ways to DIE while welding at home"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvPD00F_pOg>

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:17:45 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Well... if you deal with Harbor Freight then obviously to do not an
adherent of the theory, "Make America Great Again", so obviously you
are not a follower of "The Leader" (English translation) so you must
be one of the "give away money" guys.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/us-announces-200m-military-assistance-package-for-ukraine

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

That is Garmins ‘old’ HRM. It has no bluetooth. The newer ones have bluetooth and a so called comfort strap. Personally I preferred the old one you have because the electrodes in the soft strap are very vurnerable. Battery life was not different in the old type and yes the ‘premium’ one also uses 2032 batteries.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 3:40:15 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:55:55 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:00:43 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > > Think about this for a minute. The average heart rate on a ride is over 100 bpm and one of my rides is 4 hours. That is 100 x 240 or 24000 transmission spikes per ride or more.
> > >
> > > You can clearly see why Liebermann couldn't get a job as an EE. He hasn't even a clue about energy when a 2023 has only 210 mAh's of energy and he doesn't even know that a 2023 will self discharge in less time than his 3.5 years to below the critical 2 volt range.
> > >
> > > He simply cannot keep his stupidity from showing. Especially when I have TWO Garmin heart rate monitors and they have about the same discharge rate.
> > Think about how stupid it is to produce a HRM with only a battery life of 2-3 days. And you have two of them? Geezz.
> >
> > Lou
> The Garmin connects to its sensors with ANT+ protocol.

Or BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy)

> The capture rate of data is approximately 25% or higher failure rate.

That's ridiculous. If you had data errors of 25% the product never would have made it to market. BER is generally measured in magnitudes of 10^-6 or lower. Packet loss of 1% is consider acceptable. At 25% the link would constantly be resyncing.

> The cost PER BIT is about 50 uA.

Please show where you got such specific information as 50 uA per bit. An energy per bit spec varies widely depending on the transceiver chipset. The product manufacturers don't publish such data, The chipset manufacturers will publish that data based on data rate and transmitter power.

> Once a sensor is paired, the sensor sends a message at 4800 baud (bits per second) whether there is any new information or not.

_All_ the information is considered new.

> The MINIMUM message length is approximately 40 bits

The ANT protocol set minimum packet size at 8 bytes (= 64 bits)

> so your heart rate monitor is probably draining your battery at about 1/100th of its capacity per message if the message was entirely "1" bits. I don't know how often the sensor sends a message but it is critical to power drain and it must be often enough to update the display on the Garmin often enough for you to see changes. So I expect it to be every couple of seconds. 30 times per minute is 120 times per hour or 480 times on a four hour ride. 40 bits @ 50 uA is one one hundredth of the capacity of a 2032.

The commlink is maintained regardless of whether sensor data is being transmitted. IOW the frequency of the data packet transmission doesn't have much to do with the power being consumed while the link is active. Yes, higher data rates will consume slightly more power. However you aren't changing the data rate dynamically while the link is active in ANT (some protocols do dynamically change the data rate, ANT isn't one of them).

>
> So HOW is it that it doesn't drain the battery in a fraction of a ride? Because although the message is actually 40 bits long it is a length and not a bit. Only a "1" counts as a transmission. And "0's" are missing spots in the TIME of transmission.

_COMPLETE_ bullshit. The data is encoded. Transmitting a 0 takes as much energy as transmitting a 1.

> And most of the bits are zeros. The 150 beats per minute contains only 4 ones 1001 0110. The header is likely a 1000 0000 and the tail 0000 0001. The actual sensor ID depends on the manner in which Garmin handles it so it is likely to be in a manner that uses the least power.

Again, complete bullshit. The data is encrypted, there is header information detailing the ID of the link (so someone riding next to you doesn't get your HR information), and FEC data.

>
> In any case, ANT+ while not power hungry certainly isn't cheap. Going through the numbers I can plainly see why I am replacing batteries every couple of weeks.
>
> The question is - exactly how are you getting a YEAR out of the battery

The same way everyone else on the planet does. I use a Garmin HRM pro+. In the nearly three years I've had it, I've replaced the battery once.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/11/2023 11:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> I just returned from visit to
> Harbor Freight and returned with some new toys. I prefer to play with
> these instead of researching Tom's HRM problems:
> <https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-flux-125-amp-welder-57861.html>
> <https://www.harborfreight.com/blue-design-auto-darkening-welding-helmet-61610.html>

My auto-darkening helmet made a world of difference for me. I think it's
great.

> Is all this a conspiracy to defraud the public of their entitlement of
> battery life by the Democrats or Republicans?
> Is Dr Fauci behind all these low battery life problems?

I think Tom's moved beyond "It's Obama's fault" and "It's Fauci's
fault." Now it's all Biden's fault. Because Biden personally controls
every decision ever made in the world.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 14:21:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/11/2023 11:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> I just returned from visit to
>> Harbor Freight and returned with some new toys. I prefer to play with
>> these instead of researching Tom's HRM problems:
>> <https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-flux-125-amp-welder-57861.html>
>> <https://www.harborfreight.com/blue-design-auto-darkening-welding-helmet-61610.html>
>
>My auto-darkening helmet made a world of difference for me. I think it's
>great.

Agreed. When I was borrowing a stick arc welder a few years ago, I
tried out the owners auto-darkening welding helmet. It's much better
in all ways than my ancient helmet. No more lifting the helmet or
window between welds. The new helmet is also much lighter and has a
better head band than my old helmet. I didn't really need another
helmet, but I'm easily spoiled by luxury items. However, I bought the
$50 cheap auto-darkening helmet instead of one of the better helmets
for $100 to $150.
<https://www.harborfreight.com/welding/protective-gear/helmets-goggles.html>
I would have bought a magnifying "cheater lens" but Harbor Freight
didn't offer one.

I couldn't get it to trigger with my UV flashlight, so I'll either try
to find my ancient AC arc welder or rush the setup of the new flux
welder. Right now, I'm bogged down in reinforcing a dolly to handle
the weight of the stove (about 350 lbs without the 17 fire bricks and
door).

>> Is all this a conspiracy to defraud the public of their entitlement of
>> battery life by the Democrats or Republicans?
>> Is Dr Fauci behind all these low battery life problems?
>
>I think Tom's moved beyond "It's Obama's fault" and "It's Fauci's
>fault." Now it's all Biden's fault. Because Biden personally controls
>every decision ever made in the world.

Sorry. I forgot that the blame always migrates with the
administration. While Prez Biden doesn't personally micromanage the
entire US government, if consiracy theories are to be believed, there
must be someone hiding behind the curtain (as in Wizard of Oz) running
the entire show. I could not imagine a federal government of 2.2
million civilian employees being sufficiently organized to accomplish
all the things the government is blamed for doing. Besides, giving
GUM (great unwashed masses) a single point of blame greatly simplifies
government operations.

[John B.]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:17:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 14:21:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 10/11/2023 11:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> I just returned from visit to
>>> Harbor Freight and returned with some new toys. I prefer to play with
>>> these instead of researching Tom's HRM problems:
>>> <https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-flux-125-amp-welder-57861.html>
>>> <https://www.harborfreight.com/blue-design-auto-darkening-welding-helmet-61610.html>
>>
>>My auto-darkening helmet made a world of difference for me. I think it's
>>great.
>
>Agreed. When I was borrowing a stick arc welder a few years ago, I
>tried out the owners auto-darkening welding helmet. It's much better
>in all ways than my ancient helmet. No more lifting the helmet or
>window between welds. The new helmet is also much lighter and has a
>better head band than my old helmet. I didn't really need another
>helmet, but I'm easily spoiled by luxury items. However, I bought the
>$50 cheap auto-darkening helmet instead of one of the better helmets
>for $100 to $150.
><https://www.harborfreight.com/welding/protective-gear/helmets-goggles.html>
>I would have bought a magnifying "cheater lens" but Harbor Freight
>didn't offer one.

I bought an auto darkening helmet years after I left the Air Force
and it took me a while to get used to not having to nod my head just
as I was striking the arc. And, I bought several magnifying lens for
the new helmet - this was before I had my eyes "fixed" - and they
really are of benefit.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 07:43:48 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I bought an auto darkening helmet years after I left the Air Force
>and it took me a while to get used to not having to nod my head just
>as I was striking the arc. And, I bought several magnifying lens for
>the new helmet - this was before I had my eyes "fixed" - and they
>really are of benefit.

Thanks. That will be helpful for my situation. My eyes are rapidly
fading. I've had three eye exams and new prescription in the past two
years. I go again on Monday because my eyes are still changing. Of
course, my glasses all are the cheapest from Zenni Optical:
<https://www.zennioptical.com>
Zenni Optical is probably considered the Harbor Freight of the
eyeglasses business. Current pricing in my area is about $110 for the
exam at Costco and about $60 for the cheapest Zenni Optical bifocal
glasses including tax and shipping.
<https://www.zennioptical.com/p/other-plastic-rectangle-eyeglass-frames/1250>

[John B.]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 19:04:26 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 07:43:48 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I bought an auto darkening helmet years after I left the Air Force
>>and it took me a while to get used to not having to nod my head just
>>as I was striking the arc. And, I bought several magnifying lens for
>>the new helmet - this was before I had my eyes "fixed" - and they
>>really are of benefit.
>
>Thanks. That will be helpful for my situation. My eyes are rapidly
>fading. I've had three eye exams and new prescription in the past two
>years. I go again on Monday because my eyes are still changing. Of
>course, my glasses all are the cheapest from Zenni Optical:
><https://www.zennioptical.com>
>Zenni Optical is probably considered the Harbor Freight of the
>eyeglasses business. Current pricing in my area is about $110 for the
>exam at Costco and about $60 for the cheapest Zenni Optical bifocal
>glasses including tax and shipping.
><https://www.zennioptical.com/p/other-plastic-rectangle-eyeglass-frames/1250>

After years of buying new glasses I had my eyes "fixed" - fixed focus
lens inserted. My wife had it done while I was out somewhere "on the
job" and rather proudly showed me "Look! No glasses!" when I got home.
After another year or so of "thinking about it" I finally had it done
and still today don't wear glasses. I do have some cheap high powered
glasses +2, +3 power I use for close work on small stuff but for
reading normal size print I am still glassless (:-)

By the way, the cost for cheap single focus glasses at the "cheap
store", here, is 100 baht ($2.70) a pair.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:11:36 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>By the way, the cost for cheap single focus glasses at the "cheap
>store", here, is 100 baht ($2.70) a pair.

$1.50 at the local "dollar" store. It was $1.25 last week:
<https://www.dollartree.com/health-beauty-supplies/eyewear-eye-care>

Thanks for the info. I don't mind the glasses but can do without the
changes in eyesight every year. I'm rather worried about having LASIK
surgery done. Several friends have had failures and/or difficulties
after the surgery. Good to know that it worked for you and your wife.
I'm also on the borderline for needing cataract surgery.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/13/2023 11:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:11:36 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> By the way, the cost for cheap single focus glasses at the "cheap
>> store", here, is 100 baht ($2.70) a pair.
>
> $1.50 at the local "dollar" store. It was $1.25 last week:
> <https://www.dollartree.com/health-beauty-supplies/eyewear-eye-care>
>
> Thanks for the info. I don't mind the glasses but can do without the
> changes in eyesight every year. I'm rather worried about having LASIK
> surgery done. Several friends have had failures and/or difficulties
> after the surgery. Good to know that it worked for you and your wife.
> I'm also on the borderline for needing cataract surgery.

One of the electronics technicians at the university had LASIK done. He
was very unhappy with the result. After surgery he had great trouble
with his close-up vision.

I know that's just an anecdote, but since you do similar work, you might
want to ask about that or research that specifically.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 13.10.2023 um 17:41 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:11:36 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> By the way, the cost for cheap single focus glasses at the "cheap
>> store", here, is 100 baht ($2.70) a pair.
>
> $1.50 at the local "dollar" store. It was $1.25 last week:
> <https://www.dollartree.com/health-beauty-supplies/eyewear-eye-care>
>
> Thanks for the info. I don't mind the glasses but can do without the
> changes in eyesight every year. I'm rather worried about having LASIK
> surgery done. Several friends have had failures and/or difficulties
> after the surgery. Good to know that it worked for you and your wife.
> I'm also on the borderline for needing cataract surgery.

If you need cataract surgery, there's no need for LASIK any more ;-)

I was interpreting John as to having had Cataract surgery.

[Tom Kunich]

If he had cataract surgery he couldn't have year to year vision changes. I would recommend that if you are about to get cataract surgery that you chose the slightly bendable lenses. I chose the hard one's since at the time the bendable one's had very little history. So I'm stuck wearing bifocals because of other eye damage injuring my eyesight from the fall I sustained that also caused the concussion.

However, I understand that they are now quite advanced and although you would still require glasses for very close work, they work very well in every day use.

[Catrike Rider]

That's partly true. My wife had cataract surgery and one eye needed a
corrective lens, which added a couple thousand to the cost.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 18:15:24 +0200, Rolf Mantel
<ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

That should have been obvious to me, but I didn't make the connection.
Thanks for the enlightenment.

The immediate crisis is that I need to get a new prescription and
order eyeglasses. The examination will include a check for cataracts,
glaucoma, macular degeneration, etc. At least my hindsight is still
functional. Once the problems are identified, I can then look for
treatments. Since Medicare does NOT cover LASIK surgery (typically
$2,000 per eye), I'll be doing my best to look for alternatives. I
have an eye exam scheduled in 3 days and will ask all the obvious
questions.

[John B.]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:56:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

As I understand the terms I didn't have LASIC, which I believe is the
reshaping of the lens, I had a complete replacement of the lenses in
both eyes, with a close focus in one eye and far focus in the other.
Which sounds rather weird but does work very well in practice.
I believe it is also cheaper and with fewer "screw ups".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/13/2023 4:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> The immediate crisis is that I need to get a new prescription and
> order eyeglasses. The examination will include a check for cataracts,
> glaucoma, macular degeneration, etc. At least my hindsight is still
> functional. Once the problems are identified, I can then look for
> treatments. Since Medicare does NOT cover LASIK surgery (typically
> $2,000 per eye), I'll be doing my best to look for alternatives.

While I don't have experience with this, I've heard of people traveling
to other countries to get medical treatments at much lower cost. In some
cases, total expenses were similar, but going elsewhere had the added
benefit of a vacation.

I remember three instances when either my wife or I got medical
treatment in Europe. The costs were far, far lower than treatment for
such ills in the U.S.

I remember being a little irritated when we got home and our insurance
company wouldn't cover my wife's emergency clinic visit because all the
documentation and receipts were in Deutsch. I'd have had to convince the
original clinic to do an English translation, which was impractical. But
the treatment cost was pretty minor, so I didn't fight their ruling.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I believe that what I had was the same sort of thing that they use for
cataracts except it is also used here to correct vision problems. One
eye has a "close vision" lens and the other a "far vision" lens and
weird as it may sound it works perfectly well.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 18:15:24 +0200, Rolf Mantel
<ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

I believe that it was the same, basically, as cataract surgery except
done here to correct vision.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:47:40 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I've heard of that. My sister did that with contact lenses before she
did the same as my wife did.

[sms]

On 10/13/2023 8:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> I'm also on the borderline for needing cataract surgery.

Just got it done last month. What an amazing difference.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[sms]

On 10/12/2023 3:28 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

<snip>

>> The cost PER BIT is about 50 uA.
>
> Please show where you got such specific information as 50 uA per bit. An energy per bit spec varies widely depending on the transceiver chipset. The product manufacturers don't publish such data, The chipset manufacturers will publish that data based on data rate and transmitter power.

And of course since energy is not measured in uA, the whole thing is
nonsensical.