Cost of Tires

[Tom Kunich]

The cost of tires as you well know if your a rider, went through the ceiling for a while. While they are coming back down there is this weird GOTCHA where fatter tires are costing considerably more than the less used 23's. Continental GP 5000's in 23's cost $48/apiece in a 23 mm tire but for a 28 they are $56 apiece, It cost virtually no more to construct these tires in the 23 to 30 mm sizes so you have to know that they are doing this because everyone has stopped using the narrow tires and they're trying to unload them. After all, tires do age and if Lou is any indication, the smaller riders are taking their own sweet tine wearing out even the narrow tires. Those pictures that Lou has shown of the roads in Holland show why they would wear so slowly His dream roads of perfectly flat and smooth road that looks like it was paved yesterday is something that California riders could only dream of.

Through it appears that it has been so cold around here recently that my tires seem to be not only wearing very slowly but air is not leaking out of them either. I have pumped my tires up three times since the New Year. Pressure checks show that they are not deflating.

Also loony tunes is things like the Corsa G2 double pack cost $104 while if you buy two singles you pay $46 apiece.

My tastes run to Michelin Pro4 28's. For some reason Michelin has been making the "Power" series and I don't like those at all. They don't seem to have anything wrong with them but they are slower and wear faster. But I can only remember with any clarity back to last summer and perhaps the heat made them have those problems.

In any case, getting decent tires is getting harder and harder. Vittoria Rubino Pros are decent 2nd tier tires and while cheap you can't find them in 28's easily.

If you find a deal on tires you should probably jump at it.

[Joerg]

I am trying Rubinos right now. A bike shop was selling ones online with
yucky beige sidewalls for about $25. I guess nobody really wanted them.
If they truly last 2500mi like a bike friend says I'll buy more. But
only if the price is right. The Zaffiros get me about 1200mi to 1500mi
on the back but they used to be always less than $20.

> If you find a deal on tires you should probably jump at it.
>

Yup. It pays to shop in time and well before fabric shines through on
the last tire. The worst case is when the last tire blows and you have
to pay top dollar at the LBS.

In contrast to car tires, bike tires are grossly overpriced. When
calculated per mile and that's the only number that counts for me. I
don't care about cornering or getting to Sacramento 200 milliseconds faster.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Tom Kunich]

There are some tires I've never tried because they have such high costs. Perrelli and Schwalbe come to mind. Does anyone have a report on these tires and how they perform and wear?

By the way, a lot of tires are available from Amazon.

[Roger Meriman]

That is though road/Gravel/MTB tires point they are performance aimed,
which tends to lead to fast wear rates.

Though commuter type stuff has decent life span, ie getting on for 10k
miles if heavy but if commuting well doesn’t matter!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

10K!!! They must be an inch thick.

[Roger Meriman]

Road tires? No not used a pure road bike of my own for getting on for a
decade now. I used to use training type tires to ward off flint shards,
which seemed to mostly work! Essentially 2x a year which all things wasn’t
bad rear would last 2k front bit more.

I’ve use Schwalbe for the Gravel bike as the G-ones allround work for my
useage ie road and dirt without being too compromised.

To be honest since gravel tires are relatively lightweight and rocks are
just as pointy as they are to MTB’s only tubeless has kept punctures at
bay.

Tend to get to 1500 miles maybe 2k before they are shagged.

Pre tubeless and tubeless I’ve used Pirelli Cinturato H which is road tire
fast but very little traction be that braking/cornering or climbing okay in
the dry but drifting if the surfaces are loose.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Just pulling your leg.

[Roger Meriman]

No big apples so 2inch! Not particularly thick tread or tire carcass to be
honest but hard compound rubber luckily in this size matters unlike say
Gatorskins which will get 5k or so but since they are half the width you do
get the lack of grip if moist!

My Hans Dampf which are bigger heavier and much burlier than the Big Apples
just over 1k f/r

As ever chose the performance you want!

I could fit say Marathon plus to the MTB if it wasn’t a 29er at least but
it would be severely lacking in grip, and while touring tires are designed
to take loads and resist punctures. The side wall isn’t reinforced nor
cushioned agains rim strikes and so on. Or to take the loadings at low
pressures though for example berms and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Mark Cleary]

I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000 on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with that kind of mileage.
Deacon Mark

[Lou Holtman]

Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.

Lou

[Joerg]

On 2/24/23 8:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:

[...]

>> I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000 on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with that kind of mileage.
>> Deacon Mark
>
> Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.
>

You don't have any mountains to write home about but we do. Some roads
must be climbed standing in the pedals. I think that makes a huge
difference.

About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The
roads there were much worse, too.

Then there is rider weight and cargo. I currently weigh 198lbs or 90kg.
The bike with the usual load is another 40lbs or 18kg.

I lived at the bottom of the highest Dutch "mountain" which measured a
whopping 322.5 meters or so. They really insisted on that fraction of a
meter :-)

[Roger Meriman]

I’d assume it’s more the abrasive surfaces the bike parks (MTB) for example
are much more abrasive surfaces plus more frequent braking vs more natural
trails which if anything flow better.

Clearly loads have some effect hence in most cases rears wear quicker than
fronts though when I used my local Bike Park much more frequently I’d wear
the front faster as well it took the majority of the braking at least on
that bike.

The newer MTB which is full suspension trail beastie seems about even.

This said I can’t imagine that hills in of them selfs would cause
noticeable wear at least up, and down would probably depend on one’s
finesse as well.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Very many teams us GP5000 tubulars in Paris-Roubaix And they throw them away after one race. Why are we supposed to believe that hill rides on very rough pavement isn't supposed to effect tire milage?

[Roger Meriman]

Tubs have if not gone, are minority even at Paris Roubaix now and have been
for few years now.

after very high speeds with relatively fragile tyres over cobbles with less
than careful use not really surprising they are only used once!

And to be honest I’m lead to believe consumer parts ie
chains/cassettes/tyres etc are replaced if not after each race very
rapidly, what racer do and consumers are world apart!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/25/2023 10:12 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>

>> About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
>> I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
>> cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The

>> roads there were much worse, too. ...

>>
> I’d assume it’s more the abrasive surfaces the bike parks (MTB) for example
> are much more abrasive surfaces plus more frequent braking vs more natural
> trails which if anything flow better.
>
> Clearly loads have some effect hence in most cases rears wear quicker than
> fronts though when I used my local Bike Park much more frequently I’d wear
> the front faster as well it took the majority of the braking at least on
> that bike.

I suspect that when comparing the same tire under different conditions,
the biggest factor in tire wear is the amount of work done by traction.
IOW, the same person on the same bike must wear a rear tire faster if he
climbs a lot rather than riding on flats; or if he rides faster rather
than slower. Pushing harder wears the rubber faster.

Here's why. The rubber in contact with the pavement is flexible. The
harder the rubber pushes rearward on the pavement, the more the rubber
in contact and immediately above must flex toward the front, because of
that driving force.

But when a particular point in the rubber leaves the pavement, the force
is removed. The rubber flexes back to its unstressed position. As it
does that it abrades against the pavement. That causes microscopic wear.

Repeat a few hundred thousand times, and you've got measurable tire
wear. And again, the bigger the force, the bigger the flex, the bigger
the recovery motion and the bigger the wear.

Surface smoothness or roughness also figures in, but in any case I think
that's the detailed mechanism.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

+1. In the contact area there is a part that sticks to the pavement and a part that slips. Normally it is a symmetrical pattern: slip-stick-slip. If torque has to be transmitted it becomes asymmetrical little slip-stick-lot of slip. I have to deal with this my whole carreer were I have to transport sheets of paper in a printer. It looks simple but it is quite complicated if you take all of the requirements into account.

Lou

[Joerg]

My MTB rear tires never last more than 800mi, depending on terrain.
Since $50 tires didn't last any longer I now make sure I never pay more
than $25. So far the best price per mile came out of tires from
Thailand, MTB as well as road bike.

> Clearly loads have some effect hence in most cases rears wear quicker than
> fronts though when I used my local Bike Park much more frequently I’d wear
> the front faster as well it took the majority of the braking at least on
> that bike.
>
> The newer MTB which is full suspension trail beastie seems about even.
>
> This said I can’t imagine that hills in of them selfs would cause
> noticeable wear at least up, and down would probably depend on one’s
> finesse as well.
>

Once followed a very athletic rider up a hill. For a while until I ran
out of breath and he didn't. We were standing in the pedals and I could
se his rear wheel slightly fishtail. That ought to eat rubber, fast.

[Joerg]

That's because those guys do not care about cost. They don't pay,
sponsors or teams do. In automotive it's even more extreme where the
whole engine gets taken out after a single race.

[Tom Kunich]

There is that of course but would YOU want to ride a set of tubulars that had just finished Paris-Roubaix? Roger seemed to have the idea that they were using tubeless tires. Maybe someone experimented with them but tubeless do get punctures and then NOTHING holds them in place on the rims So everyone is still using tubulars because if you get a flat you don't have the tire moving about on the rim.

[Roger Meriman]

Most of my MTB riding is not man made bike trails now, which is much less
hard on the tires hence I get a fair bit more 1500 ish.

Ie it’s often softer squishy stuff, rather than rocky stuff like trail
Centres or even rocky more natural stuff I suspect that the rocky trails
around Tenerife with the volcanic rock would display fairly rapidly wear
rates.

Some manufactures have Bike Park editions of their tyres for that reason.

>> Clearly loads have some effect hence in most cases rears wear quicker than
>> fronts though when I used my local Bike Park much more frequently I’d wear
>> the front faster as well it took the majority of the braking at least on
>> that bike.
>>
>> The newer MTB which is full suspension trail beastie seems about even.
>>
>> This said I can’t imagine that hills in of them selfs would cause
>> noticeable wear at least up, and down would probably depend on one’s
>> finesse as well.
>>
>
> Once followed a very athletic rider up a hill. For a while until I ran
> out of breath and he didn't. We were standing in the pedals and I could
> se his rear wheel slightly fishtail. That ought to eat rubber, fast.
>

That would come under finesse at least on road, and even off road though
more understandable off road ie harder to do off road!

But skill never the less, but yes if your fishtailing up hills your tyre
life is not going to be long..

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Doesn’t seem to pan out like that, ie the fast folks at the club who tend
to ride faster and hills as well fitter don’t seem to go through tyres any
faster than the more socially minded folks.

Their is outliers one of my Gravelers is a fair bit faster roadie by heart
and he doesn’t get more that 800 miles out of tyres but he also just seems
to break stuff!

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

A lot of riders use(d) tubeless tires in the last two editions.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I don't think "a lot" because the announcers made a point of mentioning the people that did. Jagged edge cobbles make flats and tubeless tires CAN come off the rims with a blowout from these. You probably haven't had that problem considering the quality of you roads but I did. Carbon wheels didn't seal particularly well and there would be a lot of sealant between the rim and the tire which allowed the tire to move around.

[Joerg]

For us a rocky trail is the only safely bikeable connection between here
and Placerville (east, towards Lake Tahoe). It could be considered
man-made but is more of a trail that kind of "happened", and then became
an official trail. I've met MTB commuters on it.

My MTB is modified at the back so it can take a little cargo, similar to
adventure motorcycles but smaller.

[...]

[Tom Kunich]

Remember when most of the trails were made by deer? THAT was trail riding.

[Joerg]

I use some of those. They aren't particularly rough but they are also
used by other animals who let off big steaming piles and the front wheel
flings that up. Forgot which event but it made a lot of riders sick.
Turned out they had mounted a 2nd bottle underneath the downtube and ...

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/25/2023 2:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I suspect that when comparing the same tire under different conditions,
>> the biggest factor in tire wear is the amount of work done by traction.
>> IOW, the same person on the same bike must wear a rear tire faster if he
>> climbs a lot rather than riding on flats; or if he rides faster rather
>> than slower. Pushing harder wears the rubber faster.
>>
>> Here's why. The rubber in contact with the pavement is flexible. The
>> harder the rubber pushes rearward on the pavement, the more the rubber
>> in contact and immediately above must flex toward the front, because of
>> that driving force.
>>
>> But when a particular point in the rubber leaves the pavement, the force
>> is removed. The rubber flexes back to its unstressed position. As it
>> does that it abrades against the pavement. That causes microscopic wear.
>>
>> Repeat a few hundred thousand times, and you've got measurable tire
>> wear. And again, the bigger the force, the bigger the flex, the bigger
>> the recovery motion and the bigger the wear.
>>
>> Surface smoothness or roughness also figures in, but in any case I think
>> that's the detailed mechanism.
>>
> Doesn’t seem to pan out like that, ie the fast folks at the club who tend
> to ride faster and hills as well fitter don’t seem to go through
tyres any
> faster than the more socially minded folks.

I wonder if the fitter and faster riders are also lighter riders. The
thrust, and I presume wear, necessary to get a light and fast rider up a
hill may be no more than that required to get a heavy slow rider up a hill.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Did you ride the cobbles of PR? I did (some of them).
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/paris-roubaix-tech-trends/

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Remember I was complaining about the roads here despite paying an extra 12 cents per gallon to repair them? Because of the condition the roads were left in (that is 1.565 Trillion dollars per year) and they weren't even bothering to fill potholes. But they DID use that money to give themselves substantial raises. "In 2019, California state government workers earned an average of $143,000 per year, while local government employees earned nearly as much, averaging about $131,000 annually. But California’s private sector workers earned about $71,000, roughly half as much as their public sector counterparts. These figures include base pay, as well as overtime, and the value of non-wage benefits, such as employer pension/retirement contributions, health care, and paid days off."

Potholes are as bad or worse than the average cobbles of Paris-Roubaix which aren't that awful on the whole. There are only two or three sections of cobbles that earn Paris-Roubaix its reputation. In Paris itself on the finishing route of the Tour de France there is a section of cobbles that is smoother than the adjoining asphalt. Or at least there was when I was there for Amstrong's third win.

[Roger Meriman]

Bottles with caps seems wise! And I’ve used similar for few decades for
that reason not that it’s ever happened but well vomiting bugs are
generally on my list of things to avoid!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Not particularly, some are they have the rather light roadie frames but the
club has plenty of fit fast guys and gals who are rowers ie large chaps.

Like most things in life it’s almost certainly more complex than first
thought, and will be number of variables hence seem to get a range of life
spans see also chains!

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

."
>
> Potholes are as bad or worse than the average cobbles of Paris-Roubaix which aren't that awful on the whole. There are only two or three sections of cobbles that earn Paris-Roubaix its reputation.

Pff ride them yourself wimp. Stop complaining about your potholes you can ride around them. On the cobbles you can’t. From a Dutch sport tv program a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PadVQq53h3I

and this was a dry edition. Look back 2021 edition.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

The bad sections of cobbles are perfectly awful and there is no question about that. But most of Paris-Roubaix are no worse than very bad road. As I noted, one end of the entrance to Paris for the Tour de France is over pave' and is smoother than the asphalt. I was there and walked on it. So pave' like any other road surface can vary a great deal. And they make a point of having good roads connecting the pave'. And with gravel tires things have changed a lot. You said the other day that you're riding 30 mm tires. So I assume that most of your riding isn't on perfectly smooth roads like the picture you showed us.

Here's what Redwood Road looked like after the storm. This is near the bottom by the golf course and was one of the better sections of the road. I reported the impending collapse for months with no response of the road department. This road didn't simply fall off because of the rain, but had huge 3" deep potholes and dangerous cracks opening up continually making this descent which used to be a 40 mph descent into something that you couldn't go down at 20 mph. And even then you were risking your wheels. https://headtopics.com/us/redwood-road-in-castro-valley-collapses-in-storm-33730752

Another section of Chabot Road between Fairmont Drive (hill) and Estudillo Road (about 5 miles) had just been approved by our city council to allow 60-100 heavy truck loads of dirt for the next 40 to 80 YEARS. This road was breaking up from light car traffic and in one case where there was a dirt road running off to the side where Truck traffic had once been used to build the Chabot Dam to make our reserve water supply, the road was so bad that it collapsed under the weight of my bicycle and luckily that dirt road was there to allow me safe stopping room. After the council approved that insane road use, the rain caused the road to entirely fall off. The local paper won't even show the damage because it would embarrass the council. Now consider that - the NEWSPAPER won't report the news.