Assembly of Di2

[cycl...@yahoo.com]

It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

[cycl...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

The last electric component is supposed to be delivered tomorrow but I can't get any accurate reading on the hydraulic hoses and the bleed kit. They might be delivered tomorrow or in three weeks and the tracking isn't like it was before where it showed every post office it went through. Now it just shows "in transit" or "arrived" and "out for delivery".

[cycl...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:

> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

The idea I have to test this on my Redline CX bike. If I like the Di2 as Lou says I will, I will get another road bike upon which I can fit disk brakes and then sell the Redline off. There is a pretty good market for framesets even though fully assembled bikes are VERY slow. Kind of stupid since most of the funny assembled bike can be had for $100 more than the frameset and with decent components on them.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

I now have all of the electrical wiring and I have fitted another tool box to be used with Di2. I intend to fit the hydraulic brakes before putting the wiring on. Since I haven't bled brakes before I want to make sure that if I slash hydraulic fluid all over the place I can clean it up before the electrical connections are completed.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:

> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works. The possible sources of error are:

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left and right shifters would go into the left and right connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit. The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the seller he promptly returned my money and said that I could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage it measures zero but I don't know what the charging circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat that the unit wouldn't turn on?

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a led.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high voltage measurement I got was because there was no load on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he was running TT bars with end shifters.

[AMuzi]

Wires? No need to suffer wires:
https://www.bianchi.com/bike/force-etap-axs-12sp/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Gosh, you guys make Di2 sound wonderful!

Can we work on electronic steering next? What could go wrong?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I believe that electric power assist steering, refereed to as an EPAS
system, is the NEW thing. Honda has recently patented such a system,
and I believe is also offering power steering on their new Neo Wing,
and Alibaba currently sells a hydraulic powered system for Suzuki
motorcycles.

Just think... power shift, power steering and power pedaling and all
you have to do is sit there. Add an adapter for a modern hand phone
and you can easily watch youtube even while riding your bicycle.
Almost like sitting at home and watching the TV.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

I thought you were a mechanic, Slow Johnny. What did they say in the Air Force when you left out a critical sub-system from an assembly? Where's the gyroscope to keep the bike upright?

Andre Jute
Oh, I don't mind smartarses in small numbers

[Tosspot]

On 29/01/2020 02:36, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not
> dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I
> understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't
> that decrease the measured voltage?
>
> I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter
> all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v
> it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check
> the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing
> wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes
> time.

A battery will often show volts but not be able to pwoer anything. You
should measure the voltage in circuit if possible (i.e. under load), or
just check the voltage of an old PP9 you have lying about (smoke
detector battery). If you have a *lot* lying around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwLHdBTQ7s

[jbeattie]

I would think that if the battery is showing full voltage, it would have enough amperage to run an LED at the junction box unless there was something really weird about the protection circuit, but I'll leave that to the electronic gurus. With Tom, it always turns out to be something mundane like a wrong part or a mis-description, like his very unique BB which turned out to be a standard 68mm ISO BB. The project should take an hour or so and not months.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

Irrespective of Tom's abilities, it's not uncommon for a battery to show
voltage without a load and be dead.

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+hambini+SRAM+crank&view=detail&mid=93D5F949EF5F8E28F64793D5F949EF5F8E28F647&FORM=VIRE

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are measuring it unloaded.

[jbeattie]

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing >8v will not produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not cranking a starter motor. I represent these guys and will see what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/ Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2 is an easy install.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is that you represent some people and hence know electronics engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that stem junction box is an LED.

[jbeattie]

Exactly one. And I confess to breaking the wire to my RD while washing the bike a little too vigorously on my wash stand (dragged the wire into the cassette with a brush). I soldered it back together and used some shrink tube to seal it up. I may put in a replacement wire one day. That shorted the battery, BTW, which has had no problems since. I also confess to needing to read up on programming because I want to change some presets.

You don't need an EE to build a Di2 bike. All you need is YouTube. And I'm sure there is more than an LED in the junction box, but it it is getting power, the LED will blink red at basically any voltage output until it is absolutely dead. I would figure that you would get the blinking red with even a bad battery with some voltage output if it were properly wired. Check all your connections again. Use the tool.

-- Jay Beattie.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

You can get the wires in or out by hand just don't push or pull on the wire itself. Make sure you feel it snap in place. Only at places were several wires are close together the tool comes in handy. Everyone who can read a diagram and can put a plug in a socket can put a test setup together in a couple of minutes; just lay all components on the table and connect the wires. I agree with you that the battery has to be really dead not to be able to make the read LED flashing. Is it even possible to order the wrong cables?
These are what you need :
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/EW-SD50-Power-Cable-for-Di2-p29531/

Lou

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:07:35 -0500, Duane <duane...@videotron.ca>
wrote:

True, but it would be extremely unlikely that a battery will show
rated voltage unloaded and zero voltage under a normal load.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:27:29 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> You can get the wires in or out by hand just don't push or pull on the wire itself. Make sure you feel it snap in place. Only at places were several wires are close together the tool comes in handy. Everyone who can read a diagram and can put a plug in a socket can put a test setup together in a couple of minutes; just lay all components on the table and connect the wires. I agree with you that the battery has to be really dead not to be able to make the read LED flashing. Is it even possible to order the wrong cables?
> These are what you need :
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/EW-SD50-Power-Cable-for-Di2-p29531/
>
> Lou

It is nearly impossible to use the wire installation tool on the SH-785 levers. The groove for the entrance of the wire is nearly the same size as the wire. There isn't even room to get the connector through that part. Then it opens up but even that doesn't allow you to use the installation tool.
I assumed that they wanted you to use it at a slight angle but it wouldn't insert all the way using that method. I used the extraction end and with a great deal of trouble managed to get them "snapped" in.

But it shouldn't require any other connection to the stem junction other than power to allow it to work enough to get a light. The seller told me that it was operating fine when he sold it to me. I'll take him at his word even though he sort of misrepresented it saying that it was an Ultegra set when in fact the front and rear derailleurs were Ultegra and the rest 785.

I got the EW-7870S external wiring kit which turned out to be DuraAce and some of the connectors have four wires plus shield (which is used as the return line I suppose.) So, yes it IS possible to get the wiring incorrect. I haven't a clue what the four wires would be for. This old set is about as simple as possible. A 5 hole junction block would be fore adding TT bar-end shifters. My friend's Di2 uses a sort of "in-line" junction box" that zip ties to the rear brake cable as it passes into the guard on his titanium frame. The two wires going to the shifters are intrinsic to the junction box. That's about all I could tell from the pictures he sent me and he hasn't gone on any of the rides I've been on to check the last month. Well, it has been either raining or cold.

The one advantage I can see to the Di2 is that nothing charges. I get the Campy stuff working absolutely perfect and then two weeks later the damn thing is jumping gears. Yesterday I had my Lemond shifting perfectly and it shredded the front shift cable for reasons unknown. It looked like a wire in the center of the cable broke, the entire cable collapsed inward because of that, the end cap came off and the inner cable simply slipped out of the lock-screw. That's a new one on me.

Since I have an 11-28 I did the ride in the small ring. It turned to rain and so I was being careful But over 3,400 feet of climbing and 38 miles I got home at the normal time and with a 10.9 mph avg when my normal avg is 9.5 mph. So it appears that those power rides are making a large difference. I had been wondering if I was simply learning where to turn it on the hardest.

In any case once the Di2 is correctly set up nothing changes. There are no wires to stretch and nothing to break if you are careful with the wires.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, an LED requires 1.5 volts bias or so to turn on. This is why I was saying to you to not try to be an EE. You can easily discharge the battery to below the bias simply by leaving everything on. At $100 for a battery I sure hope this bad battery charger didn't ruin the battery.

[Andre Jute]

More precisely, to die the moment a load is put on it, and to resurrect itself after the load is removed, hence the universal consciousness of rising on the third day.

Andre Jute
Hallelujah!

[Andre Jute]

Jay would be very pissed off if those three electronics engineers went around pontificating about the law because "we know Jay Beattie, who's a lawyer".

Andre Jute

[jbeattie]

I agree, and my disbelief is based on my experience with the product and not superior electrical knowledge. I totally shorted a Di2 battery (sparks and all when I cut the rear derailleur wire), and it still had enough juice to run the flashing red indicator LED on the junction box. It wouldn't shift a gear, but it would run the light.

I understand that the voltage difference can be minimal between a charged and discharged battery -- maybe only a volt or two, but Tom said the measured output was 8v. The Di2 battery is 7.4v battery and charges up to a little over 8v, so it would appear he has a NEW, charged battery. He would then have to have a battery that couldn't manage even a tiny load -- the same load handled by my shorted battery. I understand that can happen, but what is the likelihood compared to a screw up in connection, bad junction, etc., etc. My multimeter has a battery load tester, so I would just use that anyway. Tom should get one of these. $10 at Home Depot. https://tinyurl.com/qsj599e My money is still on some other issue.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Andre Jute]

My money is on the wiring, not because I know the wiring chart on Tom's Di2 for road bikes off by heart, but because on my much more complicated commuter's fully auto plus adaptive suspension Di2 when I reengineered it to suit me (and the brief given to the designer who had delusions of sporting activities) better, extending the wiring was the thing that gave me the most bother even though it was supposedly a plug-and-play system and it worked perfectly when it arrived so that I in fact had a working blueprint to work on.

Andre Jute
Working with 1500V for my tube hi-fi was less fraught than working with Di2

[Tom Kunich]

The stem junction box is the system controller. It has a microprocessor in it to generate the system control language. All it requires is power to make the LED's light. So all it requires is a power line. Since I ran a system wire directly from the battery to the stem control unit and it didn't light there can only be two sources of error. The battery is too low or the stem unit is defective. I am taking the seller's word that it worked fine and I know that my battery charger is defective so it must have be the battery charge.

The new charger is due on Friday so Saturday I'll know. Also I am on the verge of buying a three connector stem unit since that is what was supposed to come on the group. If all else fails replace the only two sources of error.

Also there are only two types of wiring - the levers which only turn the voltage on frontwards or backwards to shift up or down and ALL of the rest of the wires are common so as long as they are plugged in they are correct. In short, it is nearly impossible to wire it wrong.

[Tosspot]

I'm pretty sure the Di2 contains a couple of 14430s, at about 10USB.
I'd have also thought an LED would start conducting around the 0.7V
mark. Ok, not very bright. Btw, I'm not an EE either.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Tom what I would do to check the battery is take a LED with a 400 ohm resistor in serie and try to drive 20 mA through that LED at 8 Volts. If LED doesn't light battery is dead.

Lou

[Duane]

I prefer the Schrodinger cat analogy. The battery is dead and not dead
until you connect a load to it.

[jbeattie]

I hope that works for you. I just downloaded the e-tube project software and will update the firmware on all my components this weekend and maybe do some customization. I don't like the auto rear downshift shift when I downshift the FD, and I want to see if I can disarm the anti-cross chaining feature. My recharging cord works as a link, but you may need to buy the e-tube PC linkage device. Anyway, I haven't done this yet, but if you have a link and he downloadable etube project software, it will run diagnostics on your system, including the battery.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

There is a difference between forward bias voltage of a transistor or common diode and an LED:

Forward-bias is when the anode (the pointy part of the symbol) is positive and the cathode (the bar) is negative. Reverse-bias is when the anode is negative and the cathode is positive. ... Typically, the forward voltage of an LED is about 1.8–3.3 volts; it varies by the color of the LED. A red LED typically drops 1.8 volts, but voltage drop normally rises as the light frequency increases, so a blue LED may drop around 3.3 volts.

[Tom Kunich]

The older Di2 doesn't download later firmware. It also doesn't have automatic shifting etc. In my opinion that is entirely unnecessary.

[Tosspot]

You are clearly more of an EE than me <folds>

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 11:03:59 AM UTC, Duane wrote:

My wife keeps cats. I dare not speak of a dead cats. -- AJ

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 3:38:01 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> The older Di2 doesn't download later firmware. It also doesn't have automatic shifting etc. In my opinion that is entirely unnecessary.

Again, given under the condition that my Di2 system is totally different, intended for commuters:

The Di2 "smoker" system gave you a choice sides the normal settings of sporting etc of full auto or assisted electronic shift where you would have to press a button to change gear. I found that when in the press-a-button mode I didn't take all that much less time over a circuit I rode every day of the week than when I had manual hub gears. The reason was, and is, that because I don't have the gift of cadence, I hang on to gears too long, just mashing through. However, in the full auto mode I knocked minutes off a 40m ride, a really appreciable difference since those days I didn't ride for fun but for necessary exercise and just wanted to get the hell back to my work.

Of course, if you have a good cadence and are used to changing gears for many small steps, the difference will not be as big as it was for me, but I'm loath to believe will be negligible.

Andre Jute
I started cycling too late to be a roadie

[Tom Kunich]

When I say that I'm an EE I'm not kidding. I worked on large projects all over the bay area which at the time was mostly Silicon Valley. I had so many engineering awards that I got tired of them and threw them out. I completed projects that PhDs said couldn't be done. (whether or not they really meant that or were trying to get more research grant money is a question.) I can't even count the number of research breakthroughs I made.

Here's one I missed - blah, blah, blah - "Thank you for all the knowledge, creativity and commitment you have dedicated towards the Cadence of the future." Signed by the company president. I worked for them early and then they laid me off when I completed a project. Then they hired me again later and I completed a couple of projects that no one else could. Then they asked me to be a manager at a firm they were acquiring. I didn't want to but they kept upping the ante until I couldn't turn it down. Like I told them, I couldn't do it all by myself and it took six other engineers to do half of it and it couldn't get done on time. Then Cadence followed me around and acquired the companies I engineered for as they were closing and I was leaving. Finally Cadence became totally dislocated as an engineering firm and now has a 30,000 sq foot building 10 miles from where I live that does nothing but manage companies all over the place.

My memory may be damaged in some things but the way my mind works on engineering projects wasn't damaged at all. Google, Facebook and Microsoft have all called me but the first two are too far away as a commute and Microsoft is in Renton, WA, near Seattle and Damned if I would move to the wettest spot on Earth.

[Tom Kunich]

The single advantage of Di2 is that you never have to worry about "cable stretch". Tuesday in the middle of a damn rain shower the front derailleur cable pulled out and I had to do the remainder of the ride in the small ring. While stopped for coffee I repaired it but I was afraid it might break again and send the cable through the spokes or something and disable me so I waited until I was done with all of the hills before shifting into the big ring. It worked fine but it might not have. And this is with Campy Cables - the best you can buy. I just completely changed that cable this morning. It required me to strip the handlebar tape off and then I discovered that the outer was pulling apart at the lever. So I repaired everything. I had to go through 8 inner cables before I found one that was long enough. I don't know where I could have gotten cables that short. Anyway they are in the trashcan now.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Gee whiz Tom. It's a simple matter to turn an adjusting screw to limit the front derailleur to the middle ring.

Was this on a regular derailleur or on your Di2 setup? Why couldn't you just reattach the cable to the front derailleur at the side of the road? That should take only a few seconds.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

Did the cable slip or break? Fixing a slipped cable should take about ten seconds with a pocket tool, minus the time for slapping yourself for under-torquing it in the first place. The benefit of Di2 is lack of cable sticking under the BB or elsewhere, particularly for those of us who ride in the rain much of the time -- although my commuter swamp-mobile has cable shifting, and it works fine until the BB gets massively caked with mud, leaves, etc. My friend has chronic problems with cable sticking on his CX and rain bike, and he's fastidious with cleanliness and lubrication, so the problem varies by bike. Di2 is also nice for crisp shifts, but otherwise its a novelty.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Campy Record. And it was set up so that it worked fine on the small ring. Though it rattled slightly in the 11 tooth cog.

[Tom Kunich]

It looks like it cut one wire out of the bundle allowing it to reduce in diameter and slip out of the lock-screw. That is odd. When I was redoing everything this morning I discovered that the shift outer had pulled back out of the lever slightly. I think that it was putting excessive friction force on the inner which caused it. Even the wire tip fitting fell off. So perhaps it sawed it's way through the cable way up at the lever and pulled out at the far end. I'm using an integrated bar/stem that is nice but really puts the outer cables through a lot of direction changes. Almost straight up at the head end where the shift inner enters, almost a right angle turn at where it is shoved into the lever slot and then it weaves through the inside of the bar. This time I was extremely careful that it was all running a smoothly as it could.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/30/2020 6:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> The benefit of Di2 is lack of cable sticking under the BB or elsewhere, particularly for those of us who ride in the rain much of the time -- although my commuter swamp-mobile has cable shifting, and it works fine until the BB gets massively caked with mud, leaves, etc. My friend has chronic problems with cable sticking on his CX and rain bike, and he's fastidious with cleanliness and lubrication, so the problem varies by bike. Di2 is also nice for crisp shifts, but otherwise its a novelty.

I've had just a few problems over the years with sticky cables.
Admittedly, my riding environment has usually (not always) been cleaner
than yours. But if sticky cables had turned into a chronic problem, I'm
sure I could have cobbled together a solution that was far, far simpler
than Di2!

One bike I have and one I used to have used a 3" bit of cable housing
above the bottom bracket to turn the front derailleur cable from the
down tube upwards along the seat tube. That was worst, since water
filled it and rusted the cable; and in winter, it would freeze solid.
For a long time, I used a dab of silicon seal on each end of the housing
to minimize water entry, which helped a lot but wasn't perfect.

My touring bike and my mountain bike both pass the cables under the
bottom bracket in plastic grooves. I have to clean that area
occasionally, but it's not been a big problem, even when touring many
miles off road, like the muddy C&O Towpath Trail. I lube that with
paraffin wax* plus a dry lube like Dri-Slide.

(* I know you're surprised!)

A couple other bikes have open cable guides brazed on. Those seem the
most trouble free to me. And my main folding bike (Bike Friday) has
completely enclosed cables, which don't stick, but sometimes worked a
bit inconsistently due to the flex and un-flex of folding.

I think if I needed a Portland Rain Bike, I'd go with totally enclosed
cables. Unfashionable but probably trouble free.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Gee Frank, you have to stop this. I am forced to agree with you yet
again :-)

Let me say that I have NEVER had a problem with sticking cables,
neither on bicycles or, in my collage days, motorcycles. Never!

Of course, I wash and lub, where required, my vehicles from time to
time and I do use plastic lined cable housings, now that they are
available, and in the old days I did grease the cables when
assembling, but cable sticking? Never.

--
cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the best rain bike would be a wildly expensive IGH with discs, fenders -- probably chain drive. I'm not sold on belts, but they may be fine. Titanium would be nice. Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bikes/supercommuter-titanium-all-arounder Hmmm. It does not purport to be handbuilt in Portland, like the other frames. Seems suspicious. Actually, my next rain commuter is going to be an eBike so I can blow the doors off the unsuspecting rubes creeping up the hills on their non-eBikes. I was actually shocked this morning when I passed a mom on a cargo bike and a kid up front with NO motor. Those mom-mobiles are almost always motorized.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tosspot]

Or wedge a piece of roadkill into it to keep it on whatever ring you
like, the advantage is if you get to a big hill you can pull it out for
the Granny cog and re-insert it later.

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
>
> I can't believe I'm saying this, but the best rain bike would be a wildly expensive IGH with discs, fenders -- probably chain drive. I'm not sold on belts, but they may be fine.

Ahem. Once you have IGH, *the* right option is a KMC chain running for its entire life on the factory lube inside a Hebie Chainglider, zero cleaning, zero lubing, zero service. If you haven't read this report from where I hang out with real cyclists, you will be amazed at what about fifty bucks worth of hard German reinforced rubber can do for you:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.msg42349#msg42349
Much more about chain cases and the Chainglider in particular on that forum availble through the search engine.

>Actually, my next rain commuter is going to be an eBike so I can blow the doors off the unsuspecting rubes creeping up the hills on their non-eBikes.

An agreeable e-bike commuter is 250 or 350W, quite powerful enough unless you're the size of an elephant. Those 750W monsters that are legal in the US require too much attention when you're riding in traffic, either with cars or other cyclists. The best plan is to buy a motor kit with control elements and a battery, rather than one of the ready-made ebikes for commuters, which are dull. If you can remove and fit a bottom bracket, you can do the conversion in twenty minutes; I did mine on my way to the hospital for heart surgery. The only make and model range to consider is the Bafang (also branded 8FUN) bottom bracket motor called BB which come in several power ratings. The Bafang even in the 250 and 350W motors offer more torque than any of the others and it's torque that matters in a commuter (and on the hills) rather than horsepower. Make absolutely sure you get the controller you can change yourself; some idiot dealers think they're auxiliaries of the nanny state and sell only the non-resetable controller, set to it's most useless programme. Your Chianglider will carry forward to it if the chainring and sprocket are the same tooth count.

Andre Jute
Been there, done that, moved on to something more exciting well before they started handing out t-shirts

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

> Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bikes/supercommuter-titanium-all-arounder

Are you kidding me? $1950 for a frame without a fork?

I admire the casual way you offer to take one for the team, but you're blinded by love if you cannot see that that frame will break where the rear end is crudely welded to the chain stay, that the slider for the axle hanger (it's the slot with the bolt in it; it is used to take slack out of the chain on an HGB bike by hanging a piece of machined aluminium in it on each side with a long vertical slot that takes the axle and torque reactor of the Rohloff) is too short for a Rohloff or possibly a NuVinci too, and that it requires two bolts, not just one, and a channel for the axle hanger to slide in both to locate it positively and because enormous forces are resolved here. Who wants to end up with an HGB bike with an ugly chain tension arm and jockey wheel hanging of the rear end and on the other side a dirty great big torque strut alongside the chain stay? As an HGB frame, it's a botch-job from the start. You can't use the Gates drive belt that you mention on this frame: the frame would have to be split: another failure point on titanium. That thing is a nasty accident waiting to happen in heavy traffic on a cold and wet winter's night.

The right way to do it, with an axle hanger and torque reactor and disc brake bracket too if you want it, all in one, designed by Herr Rohloff:
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
and scroll down until you come to a non-drive side closeup of a rear wheel. Look closely. Just underneath the axle nut of the Rohloff Speed 14 in the slot sits a small oval nub: that's the Rohloff torque arm, and the slot reacts it. The sliders used for tensioning the chain are actually the whole ali piece, which slides in a channel, and in disc brake versions (the non-disc version is because I favour Magura rim hydraulics) there's a mounting for the disc callipers which consequently slide with the axle and never need to be adjusted. The alternative is the usual road bike rear end plus an eccentric bottom bracket, which is a pain in the posterior to say the least, and every couple of years must be replaced because it forces a tiny bottom bracket on you, and the ali of the eccentric housing gets churned up by the setting screws.

I ride a bike widely known as the "Rolls-Royce of bicycles". A replacement frame suitable for a Rohloff costs around 40% as much as that ti frame including the fork and an iconic headset and will take 60mm balloons with mudguards so that you can be comfortable on your bike in your old age. See the "Kranich rahmen" dropdown menu at:
https://www.utopia-velo.de/vertrieb/ersatzteile/
Or if you want a less flamboyant frame, try the London frame (especially for tall people, though the Kranich goes up to 59in -- I have one and it is a bloody great big bike: I sit head and shoulders above Range Rovers and intimidate the shit out of their drivers) or the Roadster.

Or you buy can a whole fully fitted-out bike for the Utopia price for a frame, throw away the parts you don't want, keep the rest, and for the price of a ti frame (which, considering your luck, sooner or later will break), build up a complete electric bike with first class components. That's from WorkCycles in The Netherlands. Their Kranich equivalent is at
http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-kruisframe-step-through
and their Roadster equivalent for very tall people is at
http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-kruisframe-aka-pastoorsfiets. If you're wondering, those are the same frames, except not so nicely finished, but they're built by Van Raam (an aptonym, both a man's name a description of what he does, raam = frame) who used to be Utopia's frame builder until a couple of years ago.

WorkCycles used to advertise their frames too at about half the price Utopia charges (a Utopia frame is finished like a jewel, for instance with stainless inserts on the insides of the rear Rohloff sliders where no one will ever see them, so there is a difference which matters to their customers who commute in the back of chauffeur-driven cars and ride their Utopia up a mountain over weekends and camp out with Herr Rohloff in the forest surrounding the Utopia factory in the summer) but I can't find the frames on Workcycles' site now, presumably because they don't have any spare frames to sell (the stated reason for Utopia and Van Raam parting ways was that Van Raam was too busy making their own handicapped mobility vehicles to make Utopia's frames as well).

If you have the balls for it, in two senses, one being that people will stare at you, the other being that the bike has a full length hammock seat and you don't want to mount or dismount it wrong, Utopia took over the North German Pedersen stock of bikes when it's founder Kalle Kalkhoff died, so they have Pedersen bikes and frames to sell. That's a superb bike, first built in 1996 but by modern standards it looks decidedly odd; it works fabulously well, especially for tall people. Here's an American enthusiast and local representative; he too might still have stock. In any event, check out his links for the historical interest.

If you don't have the face to bring off a more rational frame and want something that looks like everyone else's bike, every year in the winter you can buy pretty good diamond-frame Rohloff bikes, otherwise also fully equipped, from about 1500 to 2500 Euro on Ebay.de and other German equivalents as manufacturers make space for the new year's production. Add a motor -- or buy one with a motor already installed, fit your choice of drop handlebars (they generally come with North Road or flat bars), and for well under three grand you can have a top class HGB mid-motor electric bike in either steel or ali. With the benefit of an exotic brand name on it, or you can find a Raleigh here and there and Giants by the dozen, or sometimes a Trek from Trek Benelux (same frame as sold in the States, much better class of components, and fully fitted out to a standard unimagined by the Trek HQ -- or otherwise they would long since have put a stop to it). Towards the upper end of that bracket you might find a Rohloff-equipped Royal Dutch Gazelle or a Koga-Miyata (a vaguely Japanese-sounding name thought up by two Dutchmen, latterly an upmarket division of Gazelle), but I found that Dutch dealers on the whole don't want to be bothered with shipping bikes overseas while the Germans will help you find the cheapest shipping; two out of the three bikes I currently have were bought in Germany.

Ti? Not so much. Or rather, much more.

Andre Jute
I used to dream of a polished stainless steel bike

[jbeattie]

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-turbo-creo-sl/p/170237?color=261000-170237 Waiting for my son to find a scratch and dent return at the Specialized warehouse.

Some dope on an eBike blew my doors off riding home last night. "I'll get you Mr. eBike! Your time will come!" [shaking fist in dark, pouring rain.]

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

A chain and sprocket has almost no power loss whereas belts have rather high loses in the neighborhood of 5%. Going slow in the rain I suppose you wouldn't feel much loss but trying to get in and out of the rain in a hurry would certainly open your eyes.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, it appears that the battery as you all thought was good. The charger, rather opposite a description I read, doesn't have a "green light" on the charger to show a full charge. It only shows a yellow light when it is charging.

So, I watched the Shimano service and assembly video again and again tried it and again got nothing out of the Stem unit. So that appears to be a failure. So what I bought thinking that it was an Ultegra Di2 group was an Ultegra front and rear derailleur, 785 levers instead of Ultegra and a faulty EW67-B (Stem control unit).

With this I will no longer buy anything off of Craig's List. At least with eBay you have a money back guarantee.

[jbeattie]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 4:35:31 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bikes/supercommuter-titanium-all-arounder
>
> Are you kidding me? $1950 for a frame without a fork?

I was going to link to the Ti frame I think Lou is buying, but that might cause too much of a shock to many here. Like I said, the purchase will affect the USA/NL trade balance. But one is allowed to buy fine titanium toys so long as one's wife doesn't complain. Personally, the Utopia is far to Byzantine for me and my CAAD X swamp-mobile is fine enough. It's such a dog now with the fat rubber and dyno hub. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7kgzgcqe5s

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Andrew, Jay, Lou - do any of you guys know of the interconnectibility of the parts? Does it matter if the ST-EWxxB is a 67 or 80?

[AMuzi]

My Di2 tech says you can mix-n-match among Ultegra and DA
components of the same generation but not across generations.

Does what you wrote above mean that you have a mix of ten
and eleven speed equipment? That won't fly.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Tom, my setup from early 2014 on my crossbike consist of:
SM-BTR2 (internal battery)
SM- EW90-A (stem unit 3 ports),
FD 6870
RD 6870-GS
ST-R785-L (left shifter for hydraulic disks)
ST-R785-R (right shifter for hydraulic disks).
It is a 11 speed gruppo. I never heard of SM-EW67-A-E so I googled it. It looks different to my SM-EW90-A(3 port) or B(5 port).
On the Rose website:
https://www.rosebikes.nl/shimano-di2-sm-ew90-b-junction-verdelerbox-601605
it says that this unit can be used in combination with Ultegra 6770 after removing the SM-EW67-A-E so it is downward compatible. It seems that a SM-EW67-A-E is not upward compatible so you have to buy a SM-EW-90-A unit for your shifters.

Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

;-) According to my dealer frame is ready to ship next week.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Well, You seem to have exactly the same setup I have. The only thing I don't know is the actual number of the stem unit. ALL of the ten speed units used the wired controller as far as I know. But the EW6870B and the EW8070B look alike as far as I can tell. It as Andrew says, they are no compatible then perhaps that is what my problem is.

[Tom Kunich]

Mine will get here next Friday.

[Tom Kunich]

Andrew - as you can see from Lou's parts list, he is using an EW90A which is a large upgrade from the EW68A. I know that the DuraAce components wire differently since the "DuraAce external wiring kit" I bought has totally different connectors on it.

Now that I think about it, I did take my parts down to Robinson's Wheel Works and Robby (old Seven-11 team mechanic) said that all of the parts were compatible but that they couldn't be upgraded. By this I think that he meant that you couldn't download improved firmware.

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:07:15 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

OK, I just figure out how easily the stem unit removes when you know how. I checked it and indeed it is the EW90-B So the ONLY thing it could be is the stem controller.

[AMuzi]

As I've mentioned here many times (hey Valentino! wake up!)
one thing Shimano does very well is mark the actual part
number on every component.

[Andre Jute]

I could pose with one of those. But I'm not so sure I would reach for my chequebook before Trek demonstrated where and how the comfortable fat tyres, the mudguards (fenders), the rack, the lamps, the dynamo hub, the bottle and the lock fit. When I say I'm a big fan of Trek what I mean is I'm a big fan of the bikes their Benelux European centre develops, which follow European mores in for instance giving you fully trimmed up and fitted out bike which lacks nothing any reasonable person could want, and, even better, it comes with a very friendly management keen to help you make whatever changes you want to make to the bike fit you, rather than taking the attitude that it's your fault and problem if their bike doesn't work as you want it to work. By contrast, for $13500 in the States Trek expects you to pay extra for a control and report fascia, plus extra again for a piece of plastic to hold on the handlebars? Duh.

> Some dope on an eBike blew my doors off riding home last night. "I'll get you Mr. eBike! Your time will come!" [shaking fist in dark, pouring rain.]

That's just plain rude. We should set Franki-boy on that guy to harangue him about his "responsibility to cycling" to slow down and ride companionably beside you in the freezing rain and make small talk about bikes and taking the lane away from the sensible commuters in their cars.

> -- Jay Beattie.

Ande Jute
Always out on the cutting edge

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 9:12:21 PM UTC, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 9:35:11 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 4:35:31 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bikes/supercommuter-titanium-all-arounder
> > >
> > > Are you kidding me? $1950 for a frame without a fork?
> >
> > I was going to link to the Ti frame I think Lou is buying, but that might cause too much of a shock to many here.
> >

> > -- Jay Beattie.
>
> ;-) According to my dealer frame is ready to ship next week.
>
> Lou

Start a thread for it, Lou. Show us what it looks like. One of the pleasures of belonging to a virtual cycling community is sharing vicariously in other people's bikes that for one reason or another you'll never buy for yourself.

Andre Jute
Maybe I need a shortlist again

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

I might do that. We'll see. First I made some room by selling my two ATB's:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VWKuPtCmdv4p5WKE7
Jay might got some confirmation ;-)

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

You showed that picture of how neat your garage is just to insult me didn't you?

I stopped into the local Steel Bike Shop and he is now selling Waterfords. He had examples of everything from a touring bike with those incredibly intricate lugs to an all-out steel racing bike which I would estimate to be the same weight at most top-end carbon fiber bikes.

While I was using his floor pump to put enough air in my tires to get the back rims on the ground, I asked him about Di2. Well, all of his personal bikes have Di2 and so he has everything from Ultegra, DuraAce to XTR. I brought my Stem Unit in and he tested it and it is fine. But in conversation he told me that you have to have both derailleurs plugged in before the system will work.

As an EE I can see absolutely no reason in the world for that but apparently the stem unit has to talk to both derailleurs to make sure that they are there before it will respond.

Well, the remaining wire for the front derailleur should come in tomorrow since it was out of stock in that length, and if it all works, I'll make all of the wiring neat and use the wire covers and complete the Redline. After I ride it some I'll put the cross knobbies back on it and I should be able to get a grand for it. That will allow me to complete the Emonda. Maybe I'll start it at $1,400 since a CX bike with disks and electronic shifting should be enough of a novelty around here to get it moving.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/2/2020 6:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> While I was using his floor pump to put enough air in my tires to get the back rims on the ground, I asked him about Di2. Well, all of his personal bikes have Di2 and so he has everything from Ultegra, DuraAce to XTR. I brought my Stem Unit in and he tested it and it is fine. But in conversation he told me that you have to have both derailleurs plugged in before the system will work.
>
> As an EE I can see absolutely no reason in the world for that but apparently the stem unit has to talk to both derailleurs to make sure that they are there before it will respond.

If that were true, wouldn't a wiring or other problem with the front
derailleur mean you couldn't shift gears in the rear?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Exactly, but the wiring I have is good, the parts I've been able to test are good and the only thing missing is the front derailleur cable.

He said that you could do without a front derailleur but only if it was set-up properly.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Received the cable and hooked up the front derailleur. Absolutely no change. Pushing the button on the stem unit has no effect. Holding the button down is a little difficult but it also has no effect. Pushing a lever gear shifter has no effect.

The one part that I bought that could be a problem is the external battery mount. (screaming) From the really bad manuals of Shimano, they seem to say that there are two types: a BM1 and a BM100. Now the one I have seems to be a BM2 though I can't see any difference.

I have a spare BM1-I which looks identical to the BM2. Installing the battery line to the BM1-I and inserting the battery seems to have no effect.

The Shimano manual says that the battery charger maintains a yellow light while charging the battery. I install the battery and it only stays on for a second or two meaning the battery is fully charged.

So, I have a complete group that all worked together originally except for the external battery mount. The Shimano manual on "synchronized shifting" seems to indicate that the battery mount has some sort of intelligence in it because you have to have at least BM-100 for synchronized shifting to work.

In any case, does anyone have the slightest idea what might be happening?

[Tom Kunich]

OK, Since the Shimano manuals are almost impossible to read I dug around on the Internet and discovered some third party videos that were a lot more informative. EVERY component in the Di2 has intelligence in it. You can use the internal battery charger to connect to your windows computer to download a program to understand what the hell is going on in your Di2 system. Then you can connect the battery charger through the charging port on the EW90 A/B unit to look at everything in your system and tell what it is all doing, what the level of firmware is and whether something needs to be updated or not.

This is a hell of a lot smarter than I thought it would be. This smart-shift program was available very shortly after the Di2 hit the streets and all it is is an update of the firmware.

What the hell the battery has to do with it I couldn't say but I'm pretty certain that I may have to replace the external battery DN2 with the older DN100. Why this would be is pretty uncertain but I will take it up to the shop when he opens and allow him to set it up the first time. It isn't as if I am in a big hurry to have the Redline running and I want to know how this stuff works to be able to install it on my Emonda which is going to be first class.

I did discover a cross reference listing on the Shimano site that shows all of the parts which are interchangeable. There are so many interchangeable parts that once you have the proper setup you can put perhaps half of all of the Di2 parts made interchangeably onto your bike - that is you could start with a lower end stuff and gradually work your way up to DuraAce though I'm not sure why you would do that. None of the components appear to be lighter enough to even mention.

I do like one of the functions which is an automatic trim feature where as you shift the rear derailleur up and down the front derailleur automatically trims back and forth. On 11 speed systems this is a very nice feature so that the front derailleur simply doesn't get a worn cage. I cannot hear well enough to hear the front derailleur dragging unless it is very quiet so around traffic the front often is dragging and wearing it rapidly. And front derailleurs for compact cranks are very hard to come by.

In any case the system isn't as stupidly designed as I thought though I sure as hell wouldn't have done things like put intelligence into the battery mount just so it could keep track of the battery charge when it would be just as easy to put it in the stem unit. Putting intelligence into the shifters is sort of dumb but I suppose when they were releasing this stuff they didn't have any idea what it might develop into. For instance - the B stem unit can add extra buttons. These could be used for bar-end shifters on TT bars or they can be mounted on the handlebars near the stem so on stage races you can get your arms way in on breakaways. Or of all things - if you have a Garmin on your bike you can use the buttons to go through screens to see a route or speed etc.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/4/2020 1:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I do like one of the functions which is an automatic trim feature where as you shift the rear derailleur up and down the front derailleur automatically trims back and forth. On 11 speed systems this is a very nice feature so that the front derailleur simply doesn't get a worn cage.

Meh, old news. See
http://www.bikerecyclery.com/suntour-cyclone-mk-ii-ld-2300-symmetric-shifters-auto-trim-top-mount-w-clamp-near-mint/


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

If you think that actually worked you can buy that. I have a friend that is "returning" to the "good old days" with bikes circa 1955. You sound the same sort.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

To get back to the reason for this post: It turns out that there are very many components in Di2 since it has been out over 10 years now. You can interchange some parts with others without changing the operation at all. For instance, one of the early Ultegra groups was 6870. But it didn't offer hydraulic disks so you could interchange the levers with R785's and get the hydraulics built in. You could also use some years of DuraAce levers. The list of interchangeable parts with the 6870's is rather extensive. You could even use the latest ST-8050 but not the ST-8000 or 9000.

What Shimano got by making all these alterations isn't very clear. Perhaps the idea was to force people to buy "up".

In any case one of the most important things to know is that every component including the battery holder, has intelligence in it. (integrated circuits) And ALL of them MUST work together in at least the interchangeable lists.

Well, the ST-6870 can only use ONE external battery mount (the BM-DN100) Yet there are about five or so different external battery mounts that all look identical and all they accomplish is to put power on the wiring.

Well, for some reason I ordered a battery mount knowing they were nothing but battery mounts and then forgot and bought a second. They were both different types and of course neither of them were the right type. This is why I was unable to get the unit to start-up. The requisite part is presently on order but it has to come from Japan.

Someone suggested that these battery holders were all made unique to prevent someone copying them and selling as a second party which has been a problem with Shimano with things like chain rings and cassettes and chains where Shimano loses money each year. I suppose that might be possible but for whatever reason it is an absolute pain in the butt.

As far as I can tell, these levers can all get the "modern" firmware to give them all of the functions of the modern levers such as the automatic front derailleur automatically re-aligning itself to never rub as you change up and down. Or automatically following the most intelligent gear ratios - that is, when you are shifting up the cogs in the big ring, it will automatically drop down from the big ring and go the other way two steps on the cogs so that you are in the next higher ratio without even having to think about it.

But it ALL falls back to knowing what parts are interchangeable and which aren't. You can get this off of the Shimano Di2 site since they really aren't stingy with information. Just that a lot of it is very poorly written because it is written as briefly as possible since they are going it in a dozen languages.

Campy EPS does NOT operate the same way as Di2 and SRAM electronic shifting also is totally different. So if you get used to one you probably won't want to change. The SRAM has radio links instead of wires so you can replace any component individually and only have to match the radio links like you do connecting to WiFi.

While I'm told that Campy EPS works better, all of the installation guides seem to be missing from YouTube. So I'm not going to change over any time soon.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

After watching the youtube video's of how to bleed the brakes I gave it a try and it was so easy that you needn't worry. If you're anything of a mechanic you can do it in a snap. The first one I tried was the rear brake. I tilted the front of the bike up a little in the stand. I was worried that the mineral oil that Shimano uses as a hydraulic medium could get bubbles caught in it but it bled in a snap and without any problems. The front was even easier. There was a difference in the lever pull but there is an adjustment just below the lever bleed opening that you can use after you finish the bleeding to adjust reach.

As I told you before, I had bought the external battery carrier and it was wrong. Initially I had bought the second one at the same time because I had forgotten I had bought the first. Both were different versions and both were wrong.

Then I found a list of components that would match. This is a rather large list of interchangeable parts. But there are TWO parts that do not have any interchangeability - the external battery carrier and the internal battery. There are, I think, five versions of the external battery carrier but the interior battery is the same on all of them. I think (my list may not be complete)

When I tried either of the two battery carriers I had mounted and everything connected NOTHING would happen when I tried to turn the system on. It was a dead as a doornail. So dead that I was sure that there was something wrong.

Today I got the correct battery carrier in. All three of them look absolutely identical.

I just hooked up the correct one and it not only lit off the controller but the entire system worked instantly. It has the latest program in it as well and does the automatic front derailleur correction As you're shifting the rear up and down. Playing around with it I could also enter the "fine adjustment" mode where you can do fine adjustments on the rear derailleur.

I have an Ultegra chain to go with it so I have to get one of those little crock pots for dipping stuff into melted marshmallows, clean the chain very carefully and then melt the wax and molybdenum disulfate lubricate together and completely wax the chain. You have to leave the chain in this stuff until the chain is completely heated through and the wax and moly have penetrated the links. You can see this by the fact that little bubbles come off of the chain. When they stop you're generally good but I leave it in another 20 minutes. When you take the chain out do it with tongs or pliers because it is just slightly below boiling.

I used some old wax to do the chain on my Lemond and it has been totally quiet the last 150 miles and shifts beautifully. The problem is that when you put used chains into it without completely cleaning them there's always a little dirt left behind and over the years this stuff has gotten rather filthy. So I have new wax and new moly for the Redline and the soon to be assembled Trek Emonda.

I can tell you that unlike one very good mechanic told me, ALL of the software is upgradeable. One thing he did mention that I took to heart is to use all Shimano parts. So the only thing I am presently missing is the stem controller unit for the Trek (the shipper made a mistake and swapped labels on two shipments and that is taking a lot longer than it should to straighten away.) and the internal wires for the Trek. The Trek will still need a set of Shimano Wheels since all of mine except the disk set are for Campy. They aren't due until late next month - straight pull spokes on 50 mm deep carbon rims. This time I will start them with Campy carbon brake shoes. Those are the way to go now that I've used a set on the front and can tell the difference between them and the blue or basalt shoes.

I was sure that I had a bearing puller for the Trek but I can't find it anywhere. But of course my whole life is misplacing things these days. I'm blaming it on the medicine but the other old guys I ride with are doing the same thing. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

n any case IF you have the correct components or their interchangeable matches, the system fires right up. The only think I have figured out how to do is turn it off. I thought that you just pushed the stem button but that doesn't seem to stop anything so I just unplugged the battery.

[Tom Kunich]

I guess I didn't buy Molybdenum Disulfate for to mix in he wax. Since I wrote that it has been bothering me since in my memory that stuff is black. I finally found my jar and it is Polytetraflouroenthelene. This is a white powder. It is available through Amazon but unfortunately most of it in this extremely fine grade comes from China and they cannot ship chemicals into California though I think that it is OK for most of the rest of the US.

As the wax slowly wears off, you can see the fine white powder in the nooks and crannies of the chain.

I have ordered an ultrasonic parts cleaner from a local place. They are pretty cheap and you can use any number of solutions to clean with so I'll be experimenting for the best. It also warms the fluids so I tend to want to stay with soap solutions rather than flammable hydrocarbons.

[Radey Shouman]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@yahoo.com> writes:

> I guess I didn't buy Molybdenum Disulfate for to mix in he wax. Since
> I wrote that it has been bothering me since in my memory that stuff is
> black. I finally found my jar and it is Polytetraflouroenthelene. This

The most famous brand of PTFE is "Teflon".

> is a white powder. It is available through Amazon but unfortunately
> most of it in this extremely fine grade comes from China and they
> cannot ship chemicals into California though I think that it is OK for
> most of the rest of the US.
>
> As the wax slowly wears off, you can see the fine white powder in the
> nooks and crannies of the chain.
>
> I have ordered an ultrasonic parts cleaner from a local place. They
> are pretty cheap and you can use any number of solutions to clean with
> so I'll be experimenting for the best. It also warms the fluids so I
> tend to want to stay with soap solutions rather than flammable
> hydrocarbons.

--

[Tom Kunich]

Thanks, between the concussion and the medicine I have to take for that I have no short term memory to speak of. Teflon - That's the stuff. But that is a brand name so they have to use its chemical designation.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

I was getting my Aeroad ready for coming season last night and put the bike on the stand to install a new chain, cassette and tires. I fiddled around with the shifting moving the chain to the largest cog and at a certain position the FD moved to the small chainring as it is programmed and after that shift the FD wouldn't shift anymore. I could still shift with the RD. The last time I charged the battery was almost a year ago before last season. The LED for the battery check is hard to see because the control unit is hidden in the stem of the Aeroad but I assumed the battery was empty to the point the FD stops shifting. Hooked it up to my computer to charge the battery, updated the firmware of the shifters, FD and RD and set the model of the new cassette (14-28) so my Garmin will show the right gears. All good now.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Thanks for that bit of information. After I get both bikes operating I imagine that I'll go through the learning process and try to un-Campagnolo myself.

Yesterday on the ride somehow the damn Campy 10 speed jumped off of the 11 and stuck outside of it. It has nothing to do with the derailleur stop. And of course it started the usual, not shifting on gear at a time. You have to shift two and then back down one. So I have to adjust it yet again. It's enough to piss off the Pope. At least this was the chain that I waxed so I didn't get dirty hands.

[Frank Krygowski]

That may have to refer to a previous pope:
https://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2010/12/colnago-for-pope-john-paul-ii.html

AFAICT, this one doesn't ride. But reportedly, he likes bikes.
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a26785061/pope-francis-cycling-convention/

> At least this was the chain that I waxed so I didn't get dirty hands.

Good idea.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I find a slow cooker down at the thrift store and bought it. This morning I checked all of my chains for wear and waxed them. Since this keeps the inside of the rollers clean the chains should last a great deal longer making chains like the Connex SX and even better investment.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

I had the local top shop remove the stuck screw on the brake cable exit bracket. It turns out that aluminum piece is directly in line for the dripping sweat from a climber. The sweat from the previous owner caused corrosion which stuck the stainless screw in. I found a new one and the screw at the local Trek store and installed them with a good layer of Campy Grease coating everything. But I also ordered some Torx head replacement screws so that is highly unlikely to be unable to be removed again.

The wheels came in an Trek also makes a plastic rim liner for tubeless tires. You have to buy the correct size for your wheel and Trek showing a bit of Nationalism, calls a 700c wheels a 29" wheel. But they do have the proper size for most rims. Though Trek wheels probably are made for disk rims these days which are a bit wider than others. Trick for installation - ALWAYS start the rim strip by installing the tubeless valve tightly in place. If you do not and the valve hole isn't perfectly aligned it is hell to realign (experience of the Trek mechanic).

While I'm using 55 mm deep aero rims I have come to the conclusion that aluminum rims are probably better overall. I put a set of Campy Sciroccos on one of my bikes and there appears to be absolutely no difference in top speed or acceleration though the wheelsets are 500 grams different in weight. And aluminum rims have much better braking.

Installing the brake cable through the top tube I pushed it in from the front plug until I felt it stop. Looked inside with a bright miniature flashlight that others proclaim useless, hooked a spoke J-bend under the inner wire and slowly pulled the cable back until I saw the end. I then lifted it to the exit hole, pushed it a little and it was outside of the top tube. I installed the new and well greased plug into the hole, tightened the greased mounting screw and finished wiring and adjusting the Direct Mount brake. You can tell a difference in the braking power just at the lever. There is far less flex in the mechanisms.

The only thing that I am presently short is the wires for the Di2 and I am having a local shop who has a lot of experience with Di2 put those in because I don't want to pay $26 apiece for 6 wires while this guy has a quantity dealer discount. And he will pull the bottom bracket and re-install it and troubleshoot why the crank was touching the off-side chain stay.

There are also other things such as I have the magnet to trigger the Trek installed cadence counter and I'd like to also use it to measure speed rather than a front wheel mess.

Does anyone know if a Garmin 810 has an altimeter in it? I can't find the specs on the Internet.

The one question I have is whether I should add the Bluetooth transceiver to the Di2. Is there any good reason for it? Can I use it to upgrade or setup the software in the Di2? I'd rather do that than drag the bike into the house to use that internal battery charger/Di2 interface to do all of that.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Yes it has

>
> The one question I have is whether I should add the Bluetooth transceiver to the Di2. Is there any good reason for it? Can I use it to upgrade or setup the software in the Di2? I'd rather do that than drag the bike into the house to use that internal battery charger/Di2 interface to do all of that.

You mean this one:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/EW-WU111-Di2-Wireless-Unit-p61898/

I don't use it for update the software. I did it once and the bluetooth connection crashed and the whole system was fucked up. I spit on bluetooth and wifi connections. The wireless unit enables me to see my gears on my Garmin, the battery level and I can swipe through my data pages with the little hidden buttons of my shifters so I don't have to take my hand of the hoods. That is reason enough for me. For updating I rely on on a cabled PC connection and I drag my bike to my control center:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dAWABDgr27tYd6XHA

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Yee Gods are you neat. I have an HP EliteDesk desktop computer that is fast fast fast so I won't change that to make a cleaner desktop.

That Bluetooth interface you showed me is about 2.3's the price of the one's on eBay so too bad they don't send them to the USA.

[jbeattie]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 10:11:09 AM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

Pffff. My bicycle control center: https://i.redd.it/jmv1signld731.jpg "Main B bus undervolt. Shifting lost. Huston, we have a problem. Initiate Uber assist!" Programming a bike is kind of ridiculous.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Hey that's cool.
I'm still on Bicycle Control Center 1.0:

http://www.dailymedicalcases.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/brain-autopsy-remove2.jpg

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

;-) I can't top that.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I can gag.

[Tom Kunich]

I just discovered something interesting: you can install the external battery where it doesn't make proper contact and acts as if it is almost out of juice. Removing the battery and re-installing it and all's well.

[Tom Kunich]

The wind was blowing like hell and it was pretty cold. So here I am trying to get used to a new bike with a new shifting system and wide ratios. The first 14 miles was NO FUN AT ALL.

At the turn around spot and after a cup of coffee I started to get the hang of it and realized that the smaller cogs and the small ring gave closer ratios for riding. By the time I got home I could pretty much find the correct direction shifter through my long fingered gloves.

When I get the Trek together I suppose I'll be ready to work on a real climbing machine. The Redline is a cyclocross bike and the steering is much too sensitive for street tires. I'm sure that with the 32 mm knobbies it is supposed to have it would be fine. Though you can also get used to the sensitive steering as well I'm sure.