Cycle Path Update

[AMuzi]

Some roughly fifty years of attention, innovation, effort
and big fat piles of tax revenue for kiddy paths. Here's
your update on our advanced efficient bicycle systems from
yesterday's Wall Street Journal [1][2]
[Front page item headline}
Here’s Your New Bike Lane. Oh, Did You Want It to Go Somewhere?
[Subhead]
Cities install miles of bike lanes. Connecting them into a
sensible network proves harder. ‘It just sort of ends.’

by Julie Bykowicz

BALTIMORE—A freshly painted green bike lane beckons cyclists
down Baltimore’s busy North Avenue. But before you can
switch gears and take a swig from your water bottle, you’ve
reached the end.

The picturesque new “cycletrack” is roughly a quarter-mile
long. Then it dumps out in the middle of five lanes of
traffic, near entrance and exit ramps of an interstate.

It’s so confusing that the city made a two-minute
instructional video. Watching it takes longer than biking
the lane itself.

City officials across the U.S. are installing hundreds of
miles of bike lanes as they respond to a cycling boom that
began during the pandemic and capitalize on federal grants,
including from the roughly $1 trillion infrastructure law.

But car culture and political realities—anything that makes
driving or parking harder doesn’t tend to win a lot of
voters—mean these routes are sometimes counterintuitive,
unsafe and just plain pointless.

Kate Drabinski, a Baltimore bike commuter, said she couldn’t
wait to try out the newly painted lane down North Avenue.
When she did, she was underwhelmed. “It just sort of ends,”
she said. “And then there you are, on your bike, surrounded
by cars.”

While commuters stayed home at the start of the pandemic,
bike lanes sprang up seemingly everywhere, and more people
began using them. Now, as cities come back to life, the
mixing of car, bike and foot traffic is proving a bit rocky.

In New York City, cyclists are furiously ringing their bells
and dodging guys in suits who don’t seem to be aware they’ve
stepped into two-wheeled traffic. But the cyclists don’t all
signal their presence, or stop for red lights, so on some
streets it has become pedestrian beware.

The U.S. has more than 18,000 miles of bike lanes,
low-traffic roads good for biking and off-road paths,
according to the Adventure Cycling Association, which is
assembling what it calls the U.S. Bicycle Route System. New
York City alone has added about 120 miles of bike lanes
since 2020, according to transportation officials.

Documenting bike lane clashes has become a pastime on social
media.

“Food truck shamelessly using the entire ‘protected’ bike
lane as a customer staging area at First & K St SE. What
gives?” a D.C. resident posted on Twitter earlier this
month, tagging an account “Bike Lane Squatters of D.C.”

A New York cyclist maintains a website chronicling police
cars parked in bike lanes. Hot spots on a crowdsourced map
of Chicago bike lane obstructions include a police training
facility.

The U.S. isn’t the only place building more bike lanes. Some
are head-scratchers. The central England town of Kidsgrove
recently got its very first bike lane. It is 20 feet long.

“I wasn’t sure what they were doing with the road closed for
construction, and then when I saw the end result I
thought—Blimey! That’s it?” said nearby resident Bill
Priddin. “It’s ludicrous. I have to smile every time I drive
by it.”

The tiny lane links two sections of an off-road cycle path,
and county officials say it offers a more direct and safer
cycling route through town.

Even as cities try to do more for cyclists, there’s no
denying urban areas are still dominated by drivers. “It’s
like a commandment: ‘Thou shalt not upset drivers,’ ” said
Jed Weeks, head of the Baltimore cyclist group Bikemore.

On the other side, pro-driver groups, including the National
Motorists Association, are urging cities not to make
pandemic-era pedestrian and cycling accommodations
permanent—and to cool it with the bike lanes. They’ve taken
to calling cycling advocates “Big Bike.”

“That was a term I coined because it’s just unbelievable how
these bike lanes are being constantly pushed on us,” said
Shelia Dunn, a spokeswoman for the motorists group.

“I get roasted all the time by Twitter folks who say, ‘What
about Big Car?’” she said. “Yeah, true. But the whole reason
we have streets is because cars are the engine of the economy.”

The various modes of locomotion leave city officials “stuck
between two camps: the biking enthusiasts and everyone
else,” said James T. Smith Jr., a former county executive
who was chief of staff to the Baltimore mayor during
development of the North Avenue project and other lanes.

“You end up with compromises,” he said, “and I don’t see
that as such a bad thing.”

But those tweaked routes, cyclists say, are a big reason
cities end up with bike lanes to nowhere and other
impediments to a smooth ride.

When Amazon built a warehouse in Chicago, city officials
ripped out an existing bike lane to make way for a left-turn
lane for truckers into the facility. The consolation prize
for cyclists was to paint a new bike lane on the sidewalk.
Baltimore also routed cyclists onto a sidewalk, after a
church complained about losing public street-parking spaces
to a bike lane. It’s typically illegal to bike on the sidewalk.

In Tucson, Ariz., one median on Broadway Boulevard blobs so
far into a bike lane that the city painted an arrow
indicating cyclists should just give up, cross the
opposing-direction lane and get on the sidewalk.

“You ride up to that and you’re like, what is going on?”
said Josh Lipton, who owns the nearby store Campfire Cycling.

Los Angeles, which posts some of the country’s longest
car-commuting times, has dialed back some of its cycling
development over worries about impeding traffic. In 2015,
L.A. approved a master plan for a network of bikeways and
has since carried out about 3% of it. At that rate, it’ll be
wrapped up in the year 2248.

In the meantime, cyclists describe a patchwork of short,
unconnected bike lanes.

This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting
the Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district
and downtown—a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for
its wide, pedestrian access and bike lanes.

Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?” said Eli
Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County
Bicycle Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.

To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular
views of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes,
cyclists must first weave through lanes of traffic with
scant signage for bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.

“It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,” said Mr.
Kaufman. “The logic is, there is no logic.”





[1]WSJ is paywall so you cannot otherwise read it. Speaking
of efficiency, I just received my Friday paper roughly 33
hours late.
[2]For those of you who can see the actual article, photos
of serious looking two-way twenty-foot-long 'cycle
facilities' and other marvels are priceless.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Funny how the author did not mention ALL of the cars doing the rolling stop sign maneuver or the rolling right turn on red stunt. Never ever coming to a full stop. Its all the bicyclists running over the pedestrians. Blame the mosquito for biting the person. Never mind the snakes crawling around on the floor. Typical WSJ in the past few years since being boughten by Rupert Murdoch in 2007.

Makes sense to me to link two bike paths together with a bike path. Isn't it better to have one long path instead of two shorter paths that end in the middle of nowhere? A reporter for Rupert Murdoch would not see this logic apparently. Up north of Des Moines Iowa on a trail system they are building and acquiring land to make an eight mile long path to link together two 50-100 mile long trail systems. Previously you had to ride on some county roads (which was fine and dandy) and a 4 lane interstate highway (not fine or dandy) to connect the trail systems.

Sounds like a mix up in planning. They did the big spectacular bridge in the middle of nowhere for the publicity. Then will build the connecting trails to the big bridge later. In a completely logical and non emotional world, they would have built the boring paths and trails first and then finished with the spectacular bridge. But that is not how the world works. Everyone wants the dessert, spectacle first. Then the grunt work is done later. When multi billion dollars stadiums are built, they build the fancy revolving roof stadium first. Parking lot is built at the end. 8 lane highways to get people in and out of the parking lots is last of all. No one builds the highways first, the parking lots next, and then finishes with the great stadium, which is the real destination.

[Tom Kunich]

The interference with the parking problem has been experiments a bit around here but the best way was to put the bicycle lane outside of the parking lane. Most roads are make with an outside lane wide enough for heavy trucks to park and sling a door open without interfering too badly with moving traffic and that plays direct to that manner of installing bike lanes. Now a cyclist DOES have to beware of a car opening door directly in his path but I've found that not to be much of a problem and it only took about 5 years for drivers to become used to bike being close enough to hit and damage their doors and that being THEIR FAULT and damages coming out of their insurance before it has pretty much ended.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/23/2022 5:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> The interference with the parking problem has been experiments a bit around here but the best way was to put the bicycle lane outside of the parking lane. Most roads are make with an outside lane wide enough for heavy trucks to park and sling a door open without interfering too badly with moving traffic and that plays direct to that manner of installing bike lanes. Now a cyclist DOES have to beware of a car opening door directly in his path but I've found that not to be much of a problem and it only took about 5 years for drivers to become used to bike being close enough to hit and damage their doors and that being THEIR FAULT and damages coming out of their insurance before it has pretty much ended.

If a cyclist is hit by an opening parked car door, the cyclist is at
least partly at fault. It's foolish to ride in the door zone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlOnnDvr9Uw

Some people think they can simply "be aware" and stop if the door opens.
If you're riding above walking speed, that's roughly impossible. Human
reflexes and limitations on bike braking (caused by pitchover, not brake
force) mean you _will_ hit the door.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cyclist+doored

And BTW, it can be worse to just barely hit the door. If it hooks your
right handlebar, the bike throws you to the left under passing vehicles.

Take the lane. It's your right. It works.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Thanks for the post. I'd heard about the article but I was stopped by
the paywall.

One well known cyclist advocate and friend of mine has said "99% of bike
lanes give the others a bad name." I agree. Large sums of money are
being wasted on some crazy, crazy stuff. In almost every case, those
pushing the projects know nothing about competent bicycling.

Often, they don't even want to hear from competent cyclists because "you
guys will ride anyway. We want to encourage new riders." That is, new
riders who don't understand the hazards that they are being lured into.
And in what other field does competence disqualify a person's input?

Worst of all is the constant whining for "protected" bike lanes, with
frequent claims that anything less is inadequate and "unsafe." So we're
never supposed to ride on any road that doesn't have them? Such nonsense!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

But are Bike lanes really needed?

I recently found that Statista says that in 2017 there were 47.5
million bicyclists in the U.S. and the CDC says that nearly 1,000
cyclists are killed annually on bicycles

Statista also shows some 225,346,000 licensed motor vehicle drivers in
the U.S. in 2017 and the CDC says that more then 32,000 are killed
annually in auto crashes..

So, it seems that Bike deaths amount to 1 per 47,500 cyclists and auto
deaths amount to 1 per 7042 drivers. Which makes bicycles nearly 7
times safer then autos...

Perhaps we need "Auto only" lanes (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I think with bicycling and car driving, you need quantity of miles traveled for comparison. Not just participants. Take smoking. I am a smoker!!!!!!! I smoked a few cigarettes when I was in college. Maybe three or four total. But I smoked, so I'm a smoker. I doubt I will get lung cancer though. From smoking anyway. Same with drinking. I have drank alcohol in my life. Even before I was legally able to!!!!!!!!! So I am a drinker. But I don't think I am going to get liver cancer from drinking. I rarely drink.

You need better numbers than mere participants. Miles traveled? But the speed of cars and bikes is different, so mileage isn't really comparable either. Maybe hours in a car seat or hours in the saddle? That might get you a good comparison of the safety of bicycles versus cars. You would still need some way to take into account the different terrain. Many bicycle rides are on paths or empty country roads. Many cars are driven on 80mph highways with stop and go traffic. Comparable?

So bicycles 7 times safer than autos is probably not accurate. Maybe higher or lower. Not sure.

>
> Perhaps we need "Auto only" lanes (:-)

Those are called Interstate highways. Federal highways. Cars only. Except in a few remote spots where the only road between spots is the Interstate, so cyclists are also allowed to use it.


> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

[John B.]

But, cars and bicycles travel over the same terrain, at least they do
in the country I live in, and, I would guess, in much of the U.S.

I'm not disagreeing with you but how else can you even approach a
study of relative dangers? The CDC, for example, simply counts the
number of deaths.... no "well he was going down hill doing 90 miles an
hour...", just dead bodies laying on the ground.

>So bicycles 7 times safer than autos is probably not accurate. Maybe higher or lower. Not sure.

Well, if 47.5 million are riding bikes as Statista reports and only
1,000 die which the CDC reports it must be a pretty safe pastime. Some
.002% death rate?

The Wikki even uses driver deaths referenced to total population
which, of course, give a much more palatable figure.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

We've discussed this, but when comparing bicycling to other methods of
travel, one can make comparisons based on miles traveled, on hours spent
traveling, or on number of trips. Depending on the point being
discussed, one or another of those might be most logical.

Car travel, at least in the U.S., gets a "per mile" statistical benefit
from the fact that huge amounts of long distances are driven on
super-safe limited access highways. Long ago one government agency
looked at auto safety on roads of different types and concluded that we
were spending too much on freeway safety while ignoring rural road
safety. According to their numbers (which I'd have to really dig for
now) auto risk in terms of fatalities per rural road mile was comparable
to the overall average fatality per mile of bicycling.

To me, the most logical metric for bicycling is benefits vs. risk, and
bicycling wins easily by that measure. Its health benefits greatly
outweigh its risks. This has been the result of every study I've been
able to find on the topic.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 7/24/2022 1:04 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 12:10:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 22:07:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/23/2022 3:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> Some roughly fifty years of attention, innovation, effort and big fat
>>>> piles of tax revenue for kiddy paths. Here's your update on our advanced
>>>> efficient bicycle systems from yesterday's Wall Street Journal [1][2]
>>>> [Front page item headline}

>>>> Here’s Your New Bike Lane. Oh, Did You Want It to Go Somewhere?

>>>> [Subhead]
>>>> Cities install miles of bike lanes. Connecting them into a sensible

>>>> network proves harder. ‘It just sort of ends.’
>>>>
>>>> by Julie Bykowicz
>>>>
>>>> BALTIMORE—A freshly painted green bike lane beckons cyclists down
>>>> Baltimore’s busy North Avenue. But before you can switch gears and take
>>>> a swig from your water bottle, you’ve reached the end.
>>>>
>>>> The picturesque new “cycletrack†is roughly a quarter-mile long. Then it

>>>> dumps out in the middle of five lanes of traffic, near entrance and exit
>>>> ramps of an interstate.
>>>>

>>>> It’s so confusing that the city made a two-minute instructional video.

>>>> Watching it takes longer than biking the lane itself.
>>>>
>>>> City officials across the U.S. are installing hundreds of miles of bike
>>>> lanes as they respond to a cycling boom that began during the pandemic
>>>> and capitalize on federal grants, including from the roughly $1 trillion
>>>> infrastructure law.
>>>>

>>>> But car culture and political realities—anything that makes driving or
>>>> parking harder doesn’t tend to win a lot of voters—mean these routes are

>>>> sometimes counterintuitive, unsafe and just plain pointless.
>>>>

>>>> Kate Drabinski, a Baltimore bike commuter, said she couldn’t wait to try

>>>> out the newly painted lane down North Avenue. When she did, she was

>>>> underwhelmed. “It just sort of ends,†she said. “And then there you are,
>>>> on your bike, surrounded by cars.â€

>>>>
>>>> While commuters stayed home at the start of the pandemic, bike lanes
>>>> sprang up seemingly everywhere, and more people began using them. Now,
>>>> as cities come back to life, the mixing of car, bike and foot traffic is
>>>> proving a bit rocky.
>>>>
>>>> In New York City, cyclists are furiously ringing their bells and dodging

>>>> guys in suits who don’t seem to be aware they’ve stepped into
>>>> two-wheeled traffic. But the cyclists don’t all signal their presence,

>>>> or stop for red lights, so on some streets it has become pedestrian beware.
>>>>
>>>> The U.S. has more than 18,000 miles of bike lanes, low-traffic roads
>>>> good for biking and off-road paths, according to the Adventure Cycling
>>>> Association, which is assembling what it calls the U.S. Bicycle Route
>>>> System. New York City alone has added about 120 miles of bike lanes
>>>> since 2020, according to transportation officials.
>>>>
>>>> Documenting bike lane clashes has become a pastime on social media.
>>>>

>>>> “Food truck shamelessly using the entire ‘protected’ bike lane as a
>>>> customer staging area at First & K St SE. What gives?†a D.C. resident
>>>> posted on Twitter earlier this month, tagging an account “Bike Lane
>>>> Squatters of D.C.â€

>>>>
>>>> A New York cyclist maintains a website chronicling police cars parked in
>>>> bike lanes. Hot spots on a crowdsourced map of Chicago bike lane
>>>> obstructions include a police training facility.
>>>>

>>>> The U.S. isn’t the only place building more bike lanes. Some are

>>>> head-scratchers. The central England town of Kidsgrove recently got its
>>>> very first bike lane. It is 20 feet long.
>>>>

>>>> “I wasn’t sure what they were doing with the road closed for
>>>> construction, and then when I saw the end result I thought—Blimey!
>>>> That’s it?†said nearby resident Bill Priddin. “It’s ludicrous. I have
>>>> to smile every time I drive by it.â€

>>>>
>>>> The tiny lane links two sections of an off-road cycle path, and county
>>>> officials say it offers a more direct and safer cycling route through town.
>>>>

>>>> Even as cities try to do more for cyclists, there’s no denying urban
>>>> areas are still dominated by drivers. “It’s like a commandment: ‘Thou
>>>> shalt not upset drivers,’ †said Jed Weeks, head of the Baltimore

>>>> cyclist group Bikemore.
>>>>
>>>> On the other side, pro-driver groups, including the National Motorists
>>>> Association, are urging cities not to make pandemic-era pedestrian and

>>>> cycling accommodations permanent—and to cool it with the bike lanes.
>>>> They’ve taken to calling cycling advocates “Big Bike.â€
>>>>
>>>> “That was a term I coined because it’s just unbelievable how these bike
>>>> lanes are being constantly pushed on us,†said Shelia Dunn, a

>>>> spokeswoman for the motorists group.
>>>>

>>>> “I get roasted all the time by Twitter folks who say, ‘What about Big
>>>> Car?’†she said. “Yeah, true. But the whole reason we have streets is
>>>> because cars are the engine of the economy.â€
>>>>
>>>> The various modes of locomotion leave city officials “stuck between two
>>>> camps: the biking enthusiasts and everyone else,†said James T. Smith

>>>> Jr., a former county executive who was chief of staff to the Baltimore
>>>> mayor during development of the North Avenue project and other lanes.
>>>>

>>>> “You end up with compromises,†he said, “and I don’t see that as such a
>>>> bad thing.â€

>>>>
>>>> But those tweaked routes, cyclists say, are a big reason cities end up
>>>> with bike lanes to nowhere and other impediments to a smooth ride.
>>>>
>>>> When Amazon built a warehouse in Chicago, city officials ripped out an
>>>> existing bike lane to make way for a left-turn lane for truckers into
>>>> the facility. The consolation prize for cyclists was to paint a new bike
>>>> lane on the sidewalk.
>>>> Baltimore also routed cyclists onto a sidewalk, after a church
>>>> complained about losing public street-parking spaces to a bike lane.

>>>> It’s typically illegal to bike on the sidewalk.

>>>>
>>>> In Tucson, Ariz., one median on Broadway Boulevard blobs so far into a
>>>> bike lane that the city painted an arrow indicating cyclists should just
>>>> give up, cross the opposing-direction lane and get on the sidewalk.
>>>>

>>>> “You ride up to that and you’re like, what is going on?†said Josh

>>>> Lipton, who owns the nearby store Campfire Cycling.
>>>>

>>>> Los Angeles, which posts some of the country’s longest car-commuting

>>>> times, has dialed back some of its cycling development over worries
>>>> about impeding traffic. In 2015, L.A. approved a master plan for a
>>>> network of bikeways and has since carried out about 3% of it. At that

>>>> rate, it’ll be wrapped up in the year 2248.

>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, cyclists describe a patchwork of short, unconnected
>>>> bike lanes.
>>>>
>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the Boyle

>>>> Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and downtown—a

>>>> half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide, pedestrian access
>>>> and bike lanes.
>>>>

>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?†said Eli Kaufman,

>>>> executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle Coalition, who
>>>> biked it on opening day July 10.
>>>>
>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views of the
>>>> city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must first weave
>>>> through lanes of traffic with scant signage for bicyclists, let alone
>>>> dedicated pathways.
>>>>

>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,†said Mr. Kaufman. “The
>>>> logic is, there is no logic.â€

Good point. Mileage or even hours of operation would be
useful but data are scant, mostly conjecture.
Then again, I don't want to live under a regime which
centralizes data on bicycle mileage or hours of operation!

[Roger Merriman]

Cycle lanes need to work, ie be useful ie not just drop folks at busy
junctions and so on.

Certainly in london getting better stuff, not uniform but it’s certainly
getting better and useful.

And more than simply the white middle aged man on a road bike, the
Embankment for example you see a much more diverse bunch of folks using the
segregated bike lane to the Tower, it’s arguably slightly slower for folks
like myself who pre it would just punch it from Westminster to the tower.

Though some of that is that you don’t need to clock, along at 20+ Mph but
can pootle as your not riding down a multi lane road…

My commute has several miles of old and fairly rubbish cycle lane which
works well for me, in that it delivers me almost to the door of work, it’s
barely used by others as it’s long side a bypass originally to be a
motorway. So I see less than one other per day!

In short it depends and is definitely improving low bar admittedly!

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

If such data ever becomes monetarily valuable, you will live under such
a regime, unless you continue carefully avoiding use of smart phones,
Garmin, Strava, etc.

While Tom can't find some of his history of where he's ridden, how
slowly he rode, etc. I'll bet there are commercial interests who now
know those facts. Ditto for other Strava users.

Vaguely related: One advocacy group I belong to was briefly excited
about anonymized mass data on Strava. They said this would be very
valuable to determine where people wanted to ride, and so where money
should be spent on kiddie paths.

I pointed out that it would be valuable only for learning mostly where
"fast recreational riders" wanted to ride, and probably very inaccurate
at predicting the bulk of actual riding, especially practical riding.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/24/2022 3:11 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> Cycle lanes need to work, ie be useful ie not just drop folks at busy
> junctions and so on.
>
> Certainly in london getting better stuff, not uniform but it’s certainly
> getting better and useful.
>
> And more than simply the white middle aged man on a road bike, the
> Embankment for example you see a much more diverse bunch of folks using the
> segregated bike lane to the Tower, it’s arguably slightly slower for folks
> like myself who pre it would just punch it from Westminster to the tower.
>
> Though some of that is that you don’t need to clock, along at 20+ Mph but
> can pootle as your not riding down a multi lane road…

FWIW, when riding a multi-lane road, I don't try to hit 20+ mph. For one
thing, it's gotten harder as I've aged. But it turns out I don't need
to. I ride the middle of the right lane at whatever my normal speed
happens to be. Motorists notice me from way back and adjust by changing
lanes, usually very early.

Really, the difference between cruising easily at (say) 14 mph and
working like crazy to go 18+ mph has almost no effect on motorist
behavior. It's a negligible change in closing velocity.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 7/24/2022 7:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/24/2022 11:02 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/24/2022 1:04 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 12:10:51 AM UTC-5, John B.
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 22:07:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/23/2022 3:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> Some roughly fifty years of attention, innovation,
>>>>>> effort and big fat
>>>>>> piles of tax revenue for kiddy paths. Here's your
>>>>>> update on our advanced
>>>>>> efficient bicycle systems from yesterday's Wall Street
>>>>>> Journal [1][2]
>>>>>> [Front page item headline}

>>>>>> Here’s Your New Bike Lane. Oh, Did You Want It

>>>>>> to Go Somewhere?
>>>>>> [Subhead]
>>>>>> Cities install miles of bike lanes. Connecting them
>>>>>> into a sensible

>>>>>> network proves harder. ‘It just sort of
>>>>>> ends.’
>>>>>>
>>>>>> by Julie Bykowicz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BALTIMORE A freshly painted green bike lane
>>>>>> beckons cyclists down
>>>>>> Baltimore’s busy North Avenue. But before you

>>>>>> can switch gears and take

>>>>>> a swig from your water bottle, you’ve reached
>>>>>> the end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The picturesque new “cycletrack†is

>>>>>> roughly a quarter-mile long. Then it
>>>>>> dumps out in the middle of five lanes of traffic, near
>>>>>> entrance and exit
>>>>>> ramps of an interstate.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> It’s so confusing that the city made a

>>>>>> two-minute instructional video.
>>>>>> Watching it takes longer than biking the lane itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> City officials across the U.S. are installing hundreds
>>>>>> of miles of bike
>>>>>> lanes as they respond to a cycling boom that began
>>>>>> during the pandemic
>>>>>> and capitalize on federal grants, including from the
>>>>>> roughly $1 trillion
>>>>>> infrastructure law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But car culture and political

>>>>>> realities anything that makes driving or
>>>>>> parking harder doesn’t tend to win a lot of
>>>>>> voters mean these routes are

>>>>>> sometimes counterintuitive, unsafe and just plain
>>>>>> pointless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kate Drabinski, a Baltimore bike commuter, said she

>>>>>> couldn’t wait to try

>>>>>> out the newly painted lane down North Avenue. When she
>>>>>> did, she was

>>>>>> underwhelmed. “It just sort of ends,†she
>>>>>> said. “And then there you are,
>>>>>> on your bike, surrounded by cars.â€Â

>>>>>>
>>>>>> While commuters stayed home at the start of the
>>>>>> pandemic, bike lanes
>>>>>> sprang up seemingly everywhere, and more people began
>>>>>> using them. Now,
>>>>>> as cities come back to life, the mixing of car, bike
>>>>>> and foot traffic is
>>>>>> proving a bit rocky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In New York City, cyclists are furiously ringing their
>>>>>> bells and dodging

>>>>>> guys in suits who don’t seem to be aware
>>>>>> they’ve stepped into
>>>>>> two-wheeled traffic. But the cyclists don’t all

>>>>>> signal their presence,
>>>>>> or stop for red lights, so on some streets it has
>>>>>> become pedestrian beware.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The U.S. has more than 18,000 miles of bike lanes,
>>>>>> low-traffic roads
>>>>>> good for biking and off-road paths, according to the
>>>>>> Adventure Cycling
>>>>>> Association, which is assembling what it calls the
>>>>>> U.S. Bicycle Route
>>>>>> System. New York City alone has added about 120 miles
>>>>>> of bike lanes
>>>>>> since 2020, according to transportation officials.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Documenting bike lane clashes has become a pastime on
>>>>>> social media.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> “Food truck shamelessly using the entire
>>>>>> ‘protected’ bike lane as a

>>>>>> customer staging area at First & K St SE. What

>>>>>> gives?†a D.C. resident

>>>>>> posted on Twitter earlier this month, tagging an

>>>>>> account “Bike Lane
>>>>>> Squatters of D.C.â€Â

>>>>>>
>>>>>> A New York cyclist maintains a website chronicling
>>>>>> police cars parked in
>>>>>> bike lanes. Hot spots on a crowdsourced map of Chicago
>>>>>> bike lane
>>>>>> obstructions include a police training facility.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> The U.S. isn’t the only place building more

>>>>>> bike lanes. Some are
>>>>>> head-scratchers. The central England town of Kidsgrove
>>>>>> recently got its
>>>>>> very first bike lane. It is 20 feet long.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> “I wasn’t sure what they were doing with

>>>>>> the road closed for
>>>>>> construction, and then when I saw the end result I

>>>>>> thought Blimey!
>>>>>> That’s it?†said nearby resident Bill
>>>>>> Priddin. “It’s ludicrous. I have
>>>>>> to smile every time I drive by it.â€Â

>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tiny lane links two sections of an off-road cycle
>>>>>> path, and county
>>>>>> officials say it offers a more direct and safer
>>>>>> cycling route through town.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even as cities try to do more for cyclists,

>>>>>> there’s no denying urban

>>>>>> areas are still dominated by drivers.

>>>>>> “It’s like a commandment: ‘Thou
>>>>>> shalt not upset drivers,’ †said Jed

>>>>>> Weeks, head of the Baltimore
>>>>>> cyclist group Bikemore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other side, pro-driver groups, including the
>>>>>> National Motorists
>>>>>> Association, are urging cities not to make
>>>>>> pandemic-era pedestrian and

>>>>>> cycling accommodations permanent and to cool it
>>>>>> with the bike lanes.
>>>>>> They’ve taken to calling cycling advocates
>>>>>> “Big Bike.â€Â
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “That was a term I coined because it’s

>>>>>> just unbelievable how these bike

>>>>>> lanes are being constantly pushed on us,†said

>>>>>> Shelia Dunn, a
>>>>>> spokeswoman for the motorists group.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> “I get roasted all the time by Twitter folks who
>>>>>> say, ‘What about Big
>>>>>> Car?’†she said. “Yeah, true. But

>>>>>> the whole reason we have streets is

>>>>>> because cars are the engine of the economy.â€Â

>>>>>>
>>>>>> The various modes of locomotion leave city officials

>>>>>> “stuck between two

>>>>>> camps: the biking enthusiasts and everyone

>>>>>> else,†said James T. Smith

>>>>>> Jr., a former county executive who was chief of staff
>>>>>> to the Baltimore
>>>>>> mayor during development of the North Avenue project
>>>>>> and other lanes.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> “You end up with compromises,†he said,
>>>>>> “and I don’t see that as such a
>>>>>> bad thing.â€Â

>>>>>>
>>>>>> But those tweaked routes, cyclists say, are a big
>>>>>> reason cities end up
>>>>>> with bike lanes to nowhere and other impediments to a
>>>>>> smooth ride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Amazon built a warehouse in Chicago, city
>>>>>> officials ripped out an
>>>>>> existing bike lane to make way for a left-turn lane
>>>>>> for truckers into
>>>>>> the facility. The consolation prize for cyclists was
>>>>>> to paint a new bike
>>>>>> lane on the sidewalk.
>>>>>> Baltimore also routed cyclists onto a sidewalk, after
>>>>>> a church
>>>>>> complained about losing public street-parking spaces
>>>>>> to a bike lane.

>>>>>> It’s typically illegal to bike on the sidewalk.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Tucson, Ariz., one median on Broadway Boulevard
>>>>>> blobs so far into a
>>>>>> bike lane that the city painted an arrow indicating
>>>>>> cyclists should just
>>>>>> give up, cross the opposing-direction lane and get on
>>>>>> the sidewalk.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> “You ride up to that and you’re like,
>>>>>> what is going on?†said Josh

>>>>>> Lipton, who owns the nearby store Campfire Cycling.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Los Angeles, which posts some of the country’s

>>>>>> longest car-commuting
>>>>>> times, has dialed back some of its cycling development
>>>>>> over worries
>>>>>> about impeding traffic. In 2015, L.A. approved a
>>>>>> master plan for a
>>>>>> network of bikeways and has since carried out about 3%
>>>>>> of it. At that

>>>>>> rate, it’ll be wrapped up in the year 2248.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the meantime, cyclists describe a patchwork of
>>>>>> short, unconnected
>>>>>> bike lanes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct
>>>>>> connecting the Boyle

>>>>>> Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts
>>>>>> district and downtown a

>>>>>> half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,
>>>>>> pedestrian access
>>>>>> and bike lanes.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto
>>>>>> this?†said Eli Kaufman,

>>>>>> executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>>>>>> Coalition, who
>>>>>> biked it on opening day July 10.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its
>>>>>> spectacular views of the
>>>>>> city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists
>>>>>> must first weave
>>>>>> through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone
>>>>>> dedicated pathways.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it
>>>>>> wasn’t so upsetting,†said Mr. Kaufman.
>>>>>> “The
>>>>>> logic is, there is no logic.â€Â

>>> of miles traveled for comparison. Not just
>>> participants. Take smoking. I am a smoker!!!!!!! I

>>> smoked a few cigarettes when I was in college. Maybe

>>> three or four total. But I smoked, so I'm a smoker. I
>>> doubt I will get lung cancer though. From smoking
>>> anyway. Same with drinking. I have drank alcohol in
>>> my life. Even before I was legally able to!!!!!!!!!Â
>>> So I am a drinker. But I don't think I am going to get
>>> liver cancer from drinking. I rarely drink.
>>>
>>> You need better numbers than mere participants. Miles
>>> traveled? But the speed of cars and bikes is different,
>>> so mileage isn't really comparable either. Maybe hours

>>> in a car seat or hours in the saddle? That might get you
>>> a good comparison of the safety of bicycles versus

>>> cars. You would still need some way to take into
>>> account the different terrain. Many bicycle rides are
>>> on paths or empty country roads. Many cars are driven
>>> on 80mph highways with stop and go traffic. Comparable?

>>>
>>> So bicycles 7 times safer than autos is probably not

>>> accurate. Maybe higher or lower. Not sure.

>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps we need "Auto only" lanes (:-)
>>>

>>> Those are called Interstate highways. Federal
>>> highways. Cars only. Except in a few remote spots where

>>> the only road between spots is the Interstate, so
>>> cyclists are also allowed to use it.
>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>
>> Good point. Mileage or even hours of operation would be
>> useful but data are scant, mostly conjecture.
>> Then again, I don't want to live under a regime which
>> centralizes data on bicycle mileage or hours of operation!
>
> If such data ever becomes monetarily valuable, you will live
> under such a regime, unless you continue carefully avoiding
> use of smart phones, Garmin, Strava, etc.
>
> While Tom can't find some of his history of where he's
> ridden, how slowly he rode, etc. I'll bet there are
> commercial interests who now know those facts. Ditto for
> other Strava users.
>
> Vaguely related: One advocacy group I belong to was briefly
> excited about anonymized mass data on Strava. They said this
> would be very valuable to determine where people wanted to
> ride, and so where money should be spent on kiddie paths.
>
> I pointed out that it would be valuable only for learning
> mostly where "fast recreational riders" wanted to ride, and
> probably very inaccurate at predicting the bulk of actual
> riding, especially practical riding.
>
>

No risk to me! I read the basic architecture of the cellular
system in a computer magazine before they were actually
available so I have never seriously considered carrying a
tracking device. The few (half dozen maybe) times I have
spoken on one, someone else had to turn it on and off for
me; I really can't make heads or tails of them.

[Roger Merriman]

my old commute beastie on a fast dual carriageway can feel a bit dicey,
it’s why I like my old cycleway which bypasses the well bypass! While the
gravel bike is significantly faster and more tolerable, but it’s
potentially double the speed! In that the commute beastie has a very
upright position and heavy so 10/11mph is normal.

To be fair the embankment was always horrible to ride on, and during rush
hr the non segregated bit to the west still is. Lots of stop start traffic
and generally hairy driving/riding.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

I’d agree that lot of utility riders will not use Strava, and even those
that do may not for the commute.

I do for a few reasons one I like mapping stuff, and it’s generally useful
as how many miles has the chain done etc!

But yes I have wondered about Strava Metro data, this said the main commute
routes are the same, so possibly does work.

Roger Merriman

[Rolf Mantel]

I don't think you understand the building logic. It was the same thing
for German Autobahn building in the 1970's: first they built the bridges
because
1) the building duration is highest for the bridges
2) the land use is least difficult for bridges

Then they built the connections, using the existing bridge as additianal
leverage (we must connect to the existing bridge). There are several
examples of 'lost' highway bridges in our region where the overall plans
were changed or abandoned aber the bridge was built.

Rolf

[Tom Kunich]

Here we had a highway system which had virtually unlimited speed limits (at the time few cars could significantly exceed the speed limit). Then they started building "Freeways" which did not allow slower traffic such as bicycles on them. Then the highways began being used to interconnect freeways and it became extremely dangerous to ride on highways because of mindless drivers. Now it is only safe to ride on streets though some might be called highways. One of the local centuries takes what used to be a highway that was originally a road between towns (originally it was the main route from the San Francisco Bay Area to Sacamento) But it is now nothing more than a two lane road that more or less parallels the freeway. When this road was made it went over the dirt wagon trail so it matched all of the rollers rather than flattening any of them out.

When I was planning club rides I would also use this road to (now) wind its way to Davis and then Sacramento.

[John B.]

(:-) Actually the Autobahn system was started in the 1930's (:-)

But the system of building roads is normally, as you say, to start
with the bridges, or elevated portions, primarily because that is what
takes the most time to build.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

As you know John, atomic bombs were dropped on Japan back in August 1945. How many were killed by the bombs? Just the ones who died immediately in the initial explosion? The thousands extra who died from the radiation poisoning in the month or so afterwards? Or the many more thousands who developed cancer in the years afterwards and succumbed? And what about the lost fishing by bombing two cities on the ocean? No fishing after the bombs. Do you count the people who had no fish and food to eat and died into the total for dead? Atomic bomb killed them too. Right?

[John B.]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 19:10:25 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"

A two part answer...
The Japanese did, in fact, count not only the immediate dead but also
those that died after the bombing as a result of either blast or
exposure to radioactivity.

I was assigned to a three airplane group that attended the Atomic
tests at Eniwetok in 1956 when the first nuclear bomb was dropped from
an airplane and did a lot of skin diving in the lagoon.... no shortage
of fish at all (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Rolf Mantel]

> (:-) Actually the Autobahn system was started in the 1930's (:-)

Right but in the 1930's they didn't build useless bridges (and the A8
Autobahn in Ramstein built 1936 was converted into a military airport 3
years after opening, with a subsitution built a mile further south after
the war).

[Tom Kunich]

John to repeatedly show that he can google. Do you suppose he is attempting to convince you that he was there and then?

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Tommy once again shows his lack of education. Long ago, when I was in grade school or maybe junior high, I learned that Germany before WW2 built massive highway systems in the country. No Google or internet or even computers back then. Just History class.

Tommy, I wonder if you ever attended any schools at all in your lifetime. Were you home schooled and your mother failed to teach you anything at all? You brag incessantly about dropping out or flunking out of high school. But I am suspect whether you ever even attended high school.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Sorry for the extra post. But we also learned in History class in elementary or junior high school about Ike, President Eisenhower, was very impressed with the German road system during the war that when he became president of the USA, he began the USA Interstate highway system. Taught in History classes throughout America. From books. Google inventors also learned the same information in History classes too.

[AMuzi]

On 7/26/2022 6:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the

>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and

>>>>>>> downtown—a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,

>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?†said Eli

>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,†said Mr. Kaufman.

>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.â€

Autobahn. meh. Mussolini's Autostrada was first.

[AMuzi]

On 7/26/2022 6:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:08:17 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the

>>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and

>>>>>>>> downtown—a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,

>>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?†said Eli

>>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,†said Mr. Kaufman.

>>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.â€

As I have written here many times, humans learn from
example. And equally from counterexample:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/in-1919-dwight-d-eisenhower-suffered-through-historys-worst-cross-country-road-trip

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I have no doubt that Eisenhower's 1919 car/truck trip across the USA was a learning experience for him. BUT, as you probably know, simply knowing what does not work or doing something wrong, DOES NOT automatically teach you how to do it the RIGHT way. I suspect his support for the federal Interstate road system came from what he saw in Germany and Italy as you pointed out during WW2. It was there he learned the RIGHT way. He had already known the WRONG way for 35 years.

[John B.]

No Tommy, it is called "research". You see, intelligent people, when
they aren't sure of the facts look the facts up. As opposed to a lying
piece of feces like you who just blather on about things about which
they know nothing.

As I mentioned in another post, a character states, " I'm an old man.
I've spent my entire life telling lies. To me, lies are more
comfortable then the truth".

I can only assume that the author must have known you as the comment
fits you so perfectly.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:54:06 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/26/2022 6:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the

>>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and

>>>>>>>> downtown—a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,

>>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?�€? said Eli

>>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,�€? said Mr. Kaufman.
>>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.�€?

And here I had always read that he made the trains run on time (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 7/26/2022 7:25 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:56:07 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/26/2022 6:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:08:17 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the

>>>>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and

>>>>>>>>>> downtown a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,

>>>>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?†said Eli

>>>>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>>>>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>>>>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>>>>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>>>>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,†said Mr. Kaufman.
>>>>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.â€

> I have no doubt that Eisenhower's 1919 car/truck trip across the USA was a learning experience for him. BUT, as you probably know, simply knowing what does not work or doing something wrong, DOES NOT automatically teach you how to do it the RIGHT way. I suspect his support for the federal Interstate road system came from what he saw in Germany and Italy as you pointed out during WW2. It was there he learned the RIGHT way. He had already known the WRONG way for 35 years.
>

We don't disagree. Seeing a solution is very powerful to a
man who understands there's a problem.

[AMuzi]

On 7/26/2022 8:20 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:54:06 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/26/2022 6:08 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the

>>>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and

>>>>>>>>> downtown—a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,

>>>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?� said Eli

>>>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>>>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>>>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>>>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>>>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,� said Mr. Kaufman.
>>>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.�

A man of many talents.

[John B.]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 17:25:03 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:56:07 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/26/2022 6:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:08:17 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> >>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>> >>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>> >>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>> >>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the

>> >>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and

>> >>>>>>>> downtown—a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,

>> >>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>> >>>>>>>>

>> >>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?�€ said Eli

>> >>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>> >>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>> >>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>> >>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>> >>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>> >>>>>>>>

>> >>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,�€ said Mr. Kaufman.

>> >>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.�€

I drove from Florida to New Hampshire and from New Hampshire to
California before the Interstate and it was nothing like the
Eisenhower trip (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

True. When a guy has a round hole and all he has are triangle and square sticks, when he sees the round stick, the flood lights and orchestra start playing loud.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Ike did it in 1919. Are you 103 years old John. Or 103 + 16 years old to drive = 119. My Dad talked about driving Hwy 66 to the 1959 Rose Bowl. Last time Iowa won the Rose Bowl. I doubt Hwy 66 is the same today as then. Heck I remember back in the early 1990s driving from Des Moines to my parents in SE Iowa. All 2 lane roads through every town. Today there is a big 4 lane highway the whole way and it goes by every town I used to drive through. Very different. Faster of course. But I miss the old route where I wound through and around every town. Stopsigns and stoplights in every town. Winding and weaving every direction to get through some of the towns. Its better today, but I miss the old way too.

[John B.]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 21:36:13 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"

<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:33:36 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 17:25:03 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:56:07 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 7/26/2022 6:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> > On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:08:17 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> >> >>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>> >> >>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>> >> >>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>> >> >>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the
>> >> >>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and
>> >> >>>>>>>> downtown—a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,
>> >> >>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>> >> >>>>>>>>

>> >> >>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this??€ said Eli

>> >> >>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>> >> >>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>> >> >>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>> >> >>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>> >> >>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>> >> >>>>>>>>

>> >> >>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,?€ said Mr. Kaufman.
>> >> >>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.?€

Errrr... you missed the part about "before the Interstate"? Which
would make it, what, before 1956, or thereabouts.

And I can assure you that it certainly was nothing like Eisenhower
experienced in 1919.
In fact I doubt very much if a trip in 1919 influenced Eisenhower very
much in 1953 when he was elected. The first time.

I just looked it up and apparently the idea of a national highway
system dated back to, at least The Federal Aid Highway Act of 1921
when General Pershing compiled a detailed network of 20,000 miles
(32,000 km) of interconnected primary highways—the so-called Pershing
Map.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Or if he's a builder of wooden ships he might just use a square stick in a round hole so that the square stick can't work its way out? I believe that certain furniture makers and some ship builders did precisely that.

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

One thing I've always wondered about is the Wyoming ghost towns or near ghost towns. What the hell ever brought that many people to of all places, Wyoming? There must have been some sort of mining ventures but what would be valuable enough to found that many towns?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 07:28:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>One thing I've always wondered about is the Wyoming ghost towns or near ghost towns. What the hell ever brought that many people to of all places, Wyoming? There must have been some sort of mining ventures but what would be valuable enough to found that many towns?

"Remembering Wyoming Gold Rush History"
<https://www.goldmapsonline.com/remembering-wyoming-gold-rush-history.html>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

On 7/27/2022 12:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 07:28:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One thing I've always wondered about is the Wyoming ghost towns or near ghost towns. What the hell ever brought that many people to of all places, Wyoming? There must have been some sort of mining ventures but what would be valuable enough to found that many towns?
>
> "Remembering Wyoming Gold Rush History"
> <https://www.goldmapsonline.com/remembering-wyoming-gold-rush-history.html>
>

Not different from a memorable bike ride to Virginia City NV
which was once a vibrant collection of bars and brothels
before the silver ran out.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

No. I replied that my Dad drove Hwy 66 to the Rose Bowl in 1959. Doubt there were many or any interstates from Iowa to Los Angeles at that time. Only big road was Hwy 66. My point was Ike did it in 1919. Before there were roads that we call roads today. Your 1956 roads were not comparable to what Ike was on in 1919. Your roads were all paved. His were not. By 1956 there were paved roads all over the country. No getting stuck in the mud. Like Ike did. But they were still not as efficient as the European road system he witnessed during WW2.

And even your General Pershing road system. Was it just a road system connecting cities? Like all roads connect towns today. Or was it big huge wide heavy road system that bypassed towns and cities to make driving super efficient? I suspect when General Pershing put his system together it was revolutionary to imagine roads connecting towns and cities. You already had train tracks!!!!!!!!! Why the hell would you waste resources putting roads between towns? So his idea of having roads connecting all towns/cities was revolutionary. But that is vastly different than an interstate highway system with 4-6-8 lanes and high speed and no stopping at all because towns are completely bypassed.

Kind of like a 3 speed bike is the same as a 10-11-12 speed bike used in the Tour de France. They are both bikes. So they are the same thing. No. They are both multi geared bikes, so they are the same thing. No. Ike's dirt paths in 1919, your paved roads in 1956, the interstate highway system. They are all roads. But that is about all they have in common.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

True. In the olden days before modern wood glues, it was common to lock joints together with a square/octagon peg in a round drilled hole. Friction kept the peg in the hole. But with modern glues, you might pin a tenon joint with a dowel using glue if you want to extra secure something. In the olden days the only glue was hide glue. Made by boiling animal skins. It is still used today for some situations. But is susceptible to weakening when wet. Or humid. Thus the need for mechanical fastening with the peg locking the joint in place.

[John B.]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 13:58:27 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/27/2022 12:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 07:28:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> One thing I've always wondered about is the Wyoming ghost towns or near ghost towns. What the hell ever brought that many people to of all places, Wyoming? There must have been some sort of mining ventures but what would be valuable enough to found that many towns?
>>
>> "Remembering Wyoming Gold Rush History"
>> <https://www.goldmapsonline.com/remembering-wyoming-gold-rush-history.html>
>>
>
>Not different from a memorable bike ride to Virginia City NV
>which was once a vibrant collection of bars and brothels
>before the silver ran out.

While not a ghost town the little New Hampshire town I grew up in is
an example. The main industries in town were two very large "woolen
mills" and during WW II they ran three shifts 7 days a week making
cloth for army uniforms. Boom Times!

And then the war ended and the mills closed.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 15:15:50 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:58:09 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:24:15 a.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:23:46 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > On 7/26/2022 7:25 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:56:07 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > >> On 7/26/2022 6:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > >>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:08:17 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > >>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:14:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > >>>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:12:35 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> > > >>>>>> Am 26.07.2022 um 00:57 schrieb John B.:
>> > > >>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 12:21:51 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>> > > >>>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> Am 23.07.2022 um 23:43 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:15:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> This summer, L.A. opened the Sixth Street Viaduct connecting the

>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Boyle Heights neighborhood to the city’s arts district and

>> > > >>>>>>>>>> downtownâ€�€ a half-billion-dollar project celebrated for its wide,

>> > > >>>>>>>>>> pedestrian access and bike lanes.
>> > > >>>>>>>>>>

>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Only one problem: “Uhhh, how do we get onto this?†said Eli

>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Kaufman, executive director of the Los Angeles County Bicycle
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Coalition, who biked it on opening day July 10.
>> > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> To access the eye-catching new bridge, with its spectacular views
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> of the city and its appealingly safe bike lanes, cyclists must
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> first weave through lanes of traffic with scant signage for
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> bicyclists, let alone dedicated pathways.
>> > > >>>>>>>>>>

>> > > >>>>>>>>>> “It’s actually funny, if it wasn’t so upsetting,†said Mr. Kaufman.

>> > > >>>>>>>>>> “The logic is, there is no logic.â€

Years ago I met an old guy that had been building wooden fishing boats
up on the coast of Maine since he was a lad. He showed me how to use a
tapered square pin to fasten wooden planks to the boat frames. I asked
him whether his current fishing boat was made that way and he said,
"Oh no. I use galvanized boat nails. They are much better" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 15:11:08 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"

Which is essentially what I said, wasn't it? "it was nothing like the
Eisenhower trip"

>No. I replied that my Dad drove Hwy 66 to the Rose Bowl in 1959. Doubt there were many or any interstates from Iowa to Los Angeles at that time. Only big road was Hwy 66. My point was Ike did it in 1919. Before there were roads that we call roads today. Your 1956 roads were not comparable to what Ike was on in 1919. Your roads were all paved. His were not. By 1956 there were paved roads all over the country. No getting stuck in the mud. Like Ike did. But they were still not as efficient as the European road system he witnessed during WW2.
>
>And even your General Pershing road system. Was it just a road system connecting cities? Like all roads connect towns today. Or was it big huge wide heavy road system that bypassed towns and cities to make driving super efficient? I suspect when General Pershing put his system together it was revolutionary to imagine roads connecting towns and cities. You already had train tracks!!!!!!!!! Why the hell would you waste resources putting roads between towns? So his idea of having roads connecting all towns/cities was revolutionary. But that is vastly different than an interstate highway system with 4-6-8 lanes and high speed and no stopping at all because towns are completely bypassed.
>

From memory (always suspect) I recall two "super highways" the New
Jersey Turnpike and the Maine Turnpike. I'm not sure about the Maine
Turnpike but I thing that the New Jersey Turnpike dated to the very
early '50's. Both, as I remember were "Toll Roads".

By the way, the first "super highway" built in the U.S. was the
Philadelphia and Lancaster Turnpike, first used in 1795.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

There was no reason to move cotton to NH once the south had
a better electrical grid and air conditioning.

[John B.]

Well... they were "woolen mills" and while the spinners and looms
might work there was other equipment peculiar to wool I believe. And,
in addition, the mills were all unionized.

But what happened was that some of the southern states began to offer
low prices and cost, and no union, to entice northern industry to move
and, there were two mills both a city block in size and 3 stories
above ground, and at least one of them went to the Town, or maybe
State, and said that if they were offered lower taxes and (I think)
power costs that they would stay.

It was common knowledge that "the mills were just too big to move" so
the Town, and maybe State, said "No Dice". And the mills moved.

They offered the "boss spinners" and "boss weavers", the shift
foremen, some sort of compensation to move south but I don't believe
that any of them actually moved.

I was working part time - after school - in a gas station and I
remember people driving in and saying "give me 50 cents of low test
and don't bother to check the oil".

I've read that much the same thing happened in Detroit.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you suppose that Liebermann with all of his grand intelligence thinks that the ghost towns in Wyoming were bars and brothels. Most of them like farming communities that just couldn't get enough water. The semi-ghost towns will be a general store and a gas station that does general repairs.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 09:33:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 7:49:24 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/27/2022 5:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 13:58:27 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 7/27/2022 12:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 07:28:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> One thing I've always wondered about is the Wyoming ghost towns or near ghost towns. What the hell ever brought that many people to of all places, Wyoming? There must have been some sort of mining ventures but what would be valuable enough to found that many towns?
>> >>>
>> >>> "Remembering Wyoming Gold Rush History"
>> >>> <https://www.goldmapsonline.com/remembering-wyoming-gold-rush-history.html>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Not different from a memorable bike ride to Virginia City NV
>> >> which was once a vibrant collection of bars and brothels
>> >> before the silver ran out.
>> >
>> > While not a ghost town the little New Hampshire town I grew up in is
>> > an example. The main industries in town were two very large "woolen
>> > mills" and during WW II they ran three shifts 7 days a week making
>> > cloth for army uniforms. Boom Times!
>> >
>> > And then the war ended and the mills closed.
>> >
>> There was no reason to move cotton to NH once the south had
>> a better electrical grid and air conditioning.

>Why do you suppose that Liebermann with all of his grand intelligence thinks that the ghost towns in Wyoming were bars and brothels.

You forgot to end the above sentence with a question mark. Otherwise,
someone might suspect that your amazing expertise in the history of
Wyoming ghost towns might have been something other than a question.
Or, was your recollection of my grand intelligence based on something
you contrived for the occasion? We shall never know because you will
surely change to topic of discussion (again).

>Most of them like farming communities that just couldn't get enough water. The semi-ghost towns will be a general store and a gas station that does general repairs.

The Wyoming ghost towns in the article were active between 1842 and
1875. The first gas station was in 1905:
<https://www.saferack.com/the-first-gas-station/>
So, when the gold ran out, everyone either left or became farmers who
opened gas stations that did general repairs. Amazing.

I think that's close enough to totally wrong to qualify for yet
another 100% wrong award.

[John B.]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 10:33:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

It would probably be far easier to award "gold stars" when Tommy boy
gets something correct. Far less problem to keep score.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

For the simple reason most of the participants on this forum are somewhat older. We grew up during the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. When every other movie and show on TV was a western. With a sheriff wearing a six gun and a big hat. And every town had a bar and dance hall girls. Clint Eastwood made the movie Unforgiven in 1992 where he won an Emmy or Oscar or something. It was centered on a bar and prostitutes in Wyoming I believe. So we all think of Wyoming and the old west as bars and brothels. But they also had stables and stores and doctors and grain mills and general purpose stores too. That sold clothing and cloth and tools. And food too. Sugar was not grown in the local garden.
And almost certainly a church in every town too.

It is a stereotype. Bars and brothels were not the sole buildings in every town. Or in any town. Go to Las Vegas today and not every business is a casino. No, Las Vegas has grocery stores and pharmacies and WalMarts and HomeDepots too. But when you say Las Vegas, CASINO is the first thing that pops into your mind.

Wyoming was also a main cattle drive state/territory. Cattle drives from the midwest, Kansas City, out to San Francisco or Portland or Seattle started in Kansas City. Flat grasslands to feed the beef through Nebraska and east half of Colorado and east half of Wyoming. Then in Wyoming about where the state capital of Casper is located, the mountains kind of sort of ease up a bit and you can wind your way through the mountains. Then get to the flatter part of southern Idaho and then your choice of going down the central valley in California to Sacramento or San Francisco. Or going up north to Portland or Seattle. So every town in Wyoming, had to have a bar and brothel for the cattle drive participants. Men on horse with cows need some recreation and relaxation when they get to the cities of Wyoming. Bars and brothels.

[John B.]

Tombstone, in the 1880's had a population of from 15,000 to 20,000 and
more then 100 saloons (:-)
https://tombstonechamber.com/about/tombstone-history/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Yes thanks except one error.

The large cattle drives were from the period of limited rail
access. To get cattle from lush grazing land to the big
eastern cities, they were herded to (not from) Kansas City,
Abilene, Omaha, Dodge City or other railheads. The routes
go north, not west. As with any other commodity, the product
moves from plentiful supply, where it's cheap, to the
strongest demand area, where the going rate is higher.

https://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art181871.asp

As with the postwar 'every man carried a single action
revolver' era, the big cattle drive period was brief and
ended as railroad networks expanded.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Argh. I know the first trans continental railroad was right around the Civil War. 1869. But I still thought they did cross country cattle drives after that. John Wayne's The Cowboys movie was a cattle drive from Texas up north AND west into the mountains out west. Maybe I was deceived. Gold Rush in California was during the 1850s. Weren't there cattle drives then to get beef to the hungry miners? Or as you state, did the cattle all get herded to Omaha and Kansas City and then railroaded to Chicago and Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and New York.

[AMuzi]

California had its own adequate cattle markets at that time.
New York and other cities didn't.

[Tom Kunich]

Now I would like you go think about that. Seaton is supposedly an accountant with a degree in economics. And yet he is impervious to the very basic rules of economics. There were NEVER any "cattle drives to or from California because there were the Rocky Mountains in between the states and the cattle that were already there on very large ranges owned and run by Spanish land barons. Beef cannot be shipped after processing so it was used in California and was dirt cheap.

I find it unbelievable that Seaton along with claiming to be an accountant that has shown an entire lack of the ability to understand basic arithmetic also doesn't understand economics. He knows NOTHING about history and he has shown himself to be ignorant about practically everything.

This is a bicycle.tech site and we accept questions and answers about bicycles from anyone. So why is he talking about things he hasn't the slightest clue about? He clearly is not an accountant and he clearly doesn't have a degree in economics or if he did he never learned a damn thing about it. I really couldn't care less if he stuck to the bicycle subject. But between him, Frank, Flunky, Liebermann who proclaims himself to have a degree in electronics engineering but whose chief accomplishments appears to be a very crude ham radio repeater he made for his club installed into an old surplus radio rack, Scharf who is a failed politician hoping to get back into good graces by acting Woke and that stupid Slocum who is beneath contempt with his belief in his own intelligence because he believes anything he can find on Google that contradicts me. He sees his own mortality and he believes that he can make a mark on the world by shitting on it.

All of this is perfectly clear from their own postings. They all continue this long ranting stupidity drowning out real discussions by real people.

[Tom Kunich]

It is like the simplest principles of economics hitting a brick wall.

Andrew, what does it feel like as a businessman who has to turn a profit to know more about practically anything than someone claiming to have a degree in economics?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 06:59:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Beef cannot be shipped after processing so it was used in California and was dirt cheap.

Chicago was the original cattle hub for the US east coast. Dressed
beef is smaller, lighter, and easier to handle than live cattle.
Refrigerator cars were invented in 1868 and soon became the major mode
of transporting dressed beef and other perishables. Having ice
available from nearby Lake Michigan was a big advantage for shipping
from Chicago:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_car#Meat>

>...Liebermann who proclaims himself to have a degree in electronics
>engineering

Your memory seems to be failing. I posted this link at least twice:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>

>but whose chief accomplishments appears to be a very
>crude ham radio repeater he made for his club installed into an
>old surplus radio rack,

I'm not sure which repeater you're talking about. These are the
oldest:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/Old%20Repeaters/>
I helped build and/or maintain several repeaters for the local clubs.
These two were rebuilt in about 1995:
<https://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/k6bj/K6BJ%20Repeater/index.html>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/K6BJ-Network/K6BJ-Network.htm>
I can't seem to find any recent photos of the repeaters. Just about
everything inside the buildings has been recently upgraded by a
different group of volunteers.
<http://www.k6bj.org>

>All of this is perfectly clear from their own postings.

I thought you didn't read postings by those you disagree with?

>They all continue this long ranting stupidity drowning out real discussions by real people.

That's ok. Nobody expects you to understand the technical parts of a
discussion. As for drowning out the discussions, I have a simple
solution. Just follow your own promises:

07/07/2022
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7ejkbwjjSYs/m/slej2kB7AgAJ
"And appropriately I have jammed Slocum and Liebermann back into the
kill file with the rest of them and shall now hopefully only comment
on cycling related things. You and the actual cyclists here have had
too much of your patience tried by me responding to the idiots who
cycle not."

[John B.]

From what I read, in the 1800's cattle in Texas were worth $4.00 each
while they were worth $40.00 in the East. Thus the cattle drives. In
1867, a cattle shipping facility owned by Joseph G. McCoy opened in
Abilene, Kansas and the first year shipped some 36,000 head of cattle'
The route from Texas to Abilene became known as the Chisholm Trail.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Tommy, obviously you do not understand how colleges and the degrees they issue work. I have Accounting degrees from a University. I majored in Accounting. Thus I can refer to myself as an Accountant. If I majored in Economics, then I would call myself an Economist. Maybe you can understand this simple analogy. If a person completes medical school and becomes a Dr. Medical Doctor. He does not call himself a lawyer. Because he did not go to law school and pass the bar. He went to medical school and passed the medical boards. See the simplicity here Tommy?

> And yet he is impervious to the very basic rules of economics. There were NEVER any "cattle drives to or from California because there were the Rocky Mountains in between the states

Tommy, look at a map. You will see a dwindling of the Rocky Mountains a little south of Yellowstone in Wyoming. Passes in between the mountains. Little easier to get cattle across the mountains. People got across the Rockies. So I suspect we could force cows to cross the Rockies too.

> and the cattle that were already there on very large ranges owned and run by Spanish land barons. Beef cannot be shipped after processing so it was used in California and was dirt cheap.
>

Tommy, after beef was processed at the slaughter house, it was salted, dried, cured. And transported, shipped. This was before freezing. Tommy, learning something in life would benefit you greatly.