How do you pronounce "Tange?"
Steven L. Sheffield
In article <4nr8ts$v...@nic.umass.edu>, plus...@k12.oit.umass.edu (Philip
Lussier (Mohawk Trail RHS)) wrote:
> Well?
Ton-GAY
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Steven L. Sheffield (BOB #1765/IBOB #3) Disclaimer? What's that? |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| E-mail: ste...@veloworks.com/biki...@best.com/biki...@crl.com |
+---------- WWW: http://www.veloworks.com/cycling.html ----------+
| Voice: +1 415 296-9893 / Fax: +1 415 597-9849 / Ride yer bike! |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Philip Lussier (Mohawk Trail RHS)
Well?
--
Ken Iisaka
Philip Lussier (Mohawk Trail RHS) wrote:
>
> Well?
> --
More like Tan-gay, without the i at the end.
Other often mispronounced Japanese names:
Sugino (SOO-ghee-no instead of soo-GEE-no)
Sakae (SAH-kah-eh instead of sah-KEE)
Nitto (Nee-(silence)'TOH instead of Nigh-to)
Nikon (NEE-kon instead of Nigh-kon)
etc...
--
Are we - _~@ __@ __@ _~@ Ken Iisaka <kii...@morgan.com>
there _,\=\=\-\_ _,\=\=\-\_ Morgan Stanley Japan, Ltd
yet? (*)/===/'(*) (*)/===/'(*) Tokyo, Japan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bruce Frech
Philip Lussier (Mohawk Trail RHS) asked
I usually rhyme it with flange - one sylable. Sometimes I feel
weird & say tan-gay. How do you procounce it?
MCMURTREYG
I was told it's pronounced "tan jay"
Ralph G. Klein
In <4nr8ts$v...@nic.umass.edu> plus...@k12.oit.umass.edu (Philip Lussier
(Mohawk Trail RHS)) writes:
>
>Well?
>--
CAN YOU SAY "TON-GAY" BOYS AND GIRLS?
I KNEW YOU COULD!
Philip Lussier (Mohawk Trail RHS)
Philip Lussier (Mohawk Trail RHS) (plus...@k12.oit.umass.edu) wrote:
: Well?
: --
So far we're running 90% in favor of ton-gay. Seems like this ought
to be part of rec.bicycles FAQ. A pronunciation (sp?) guide to bike terms.
There are a lot of different languages involved.
--
Ken Iisaka
Philip Lussier (Mohawk Trail RHS) wrote:
> So far we're running 90% in favor of ton-gay. Seems like this ought
> to be part of rec.bicycles FAQ. A pronunciation (sp?) guide to bike terms.
> There are a lot of different languages involved.
Look, a Japanese native tells you guys how to pronounce it, the
guy is likely to be correct.
See my previous posting on this subject.
Jobst Brandt
Ken Iisaka writes:
> More like Tan-gay, without the i at the end.
> Other often mispronounced Japanese names:
> Sugino (SOO-ghee-no instead of soo-GEE-no)
> Sakae (SAH-kah-eh instead of sah-KEE)
> Nitto (Nee-(silence)'TOH instead of Nigh-to)
> Nikon (NEE-kon instead of Nigh-kon)
> etc...
Ken, how could you be so presumptuous as to explain that about which
you know nothing. Obviously other authoritative responders to the
pronunciation question know the facts, because they all differ with
one another. Wise up, these guys obviously speak fluent Japanese.
They can probably tell you how to pronounce Iisaka too... something
like "eye-SAY-kay". Yeaaah, rite-own.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
QINGHUA LI
I'm kind of a stickler on the pronunciation of proper names -- having a
wife and friends from a variety of countries and linguistic
backgrounds. Pronouncing names correctly is a matter of respect and
it's good that this thread got started.
I really don't think the correct approach to "How do you pronounce
'Tange'" should be looking at the way most RBR readers (mainly
Americans and Brits) pronounce it as if we're voting for a particular
pronunciation. The right approach should be how does the company
itself pronounces it -- or at least how Japanese speakers pronounce it.
I prefer to go with the way the company itself says its name in its
international markets. Interestingly, sometimes Japanese companies
pronounce their names differently abroad (I believe that is the case
for Subaru cars and also for Toyotas (run by the Toyoda family)).
So, someone who works for or has met employees of the company -- what's
the right pronuniation?
John Tomlinson
New York, NY, USA
home tel 1 (212) 362 1609
office tel 1 (212) 517 4900
email lq...@ix.netcom.com
Robert K. Plice
I think we should feel free to Anglicize or Americanize whenever we can.
This is not an act of disrespect. Look at all the companies that do this
themselves in their advertising. (Volkswagen, Bayer, Braun come to mind.)
No language is fonder of importing foreign words and then corrupting the
heck out of them then Japanese. Their speech is chock-full of English
words and Western brand-names that are pronounced in the Japanese way --
that is, in a way that no English speaker would ever recognize them.
So feel free to pronounce "Tange" any way you like.
Robert Plice
Carlsbad, CA
QINGHUA LI
In <31A624...@appliedcomp.com> "Robert K. Plice"
<rpl...@appliedcomp.com> writes:
>
>QINGHUA LI wrote:
>>
>> I'm kind of a stickler on the pronunciation of proper names --
>> itself pronounces it -- or at least how Japanese speakers pronounce
it.
>> I prefer to go with the way the company itself says its name in its
>> international markets. Interestingly, sometimes Japanese companies
>> pronounce their names differently abroad (I believe that is the case
>> for Subaru cars and also for Toyotas (run by the Toyoda family)).
>>
>> So, someone who works for or has met employees of the company --
what's
>> the right pronuniation?
>>
>> John Tomlinson
>I think we should feel free to Anglicize or Americanize whenever we
can.
>This is not an act of disrespect. Look at all the companies that do
this
>themselves in their advertising. (Volkswagen, Bayer, Braun come to
mind.)
>
>No language is fonder of importing foreign words and then corrupting
the
>heck out of them then Japanese. Their speech is chock-full of English
>words and Western brand-names that are pronounced in the Japanese way
--
>that is, in a way that no English speaker would ever recognize them.
>
>So feel free to pronounce "Tange" any way you like.
>
>Robert Plice
Robert, read my post again. I suggested the best approach is to follow
what the company considers to be proper pronuniciation and gave
examples of Japanese companies pronouncing their own name differently
in international markets (probably because they believe it sound more
"English" as you suggest). And if they want to do that, fine.
But it is fundamentally disrespectful not to pronounce (or at least
sincerely try to pronounce) someone (or some company) name the way that
person/company pronounce it. Sure, if you've never heard of Tange
before make a good guess. But if there are Japanese native speakers or
Tange reps around, listen to what they say and then try to say it their
way. Anything less is saying "I don't care about your/your language or
who you are -- I'll give you name that's convenient to me."
John Tomlinson
Jobst Brandt
Robert K. Plice writes:
> So feel free to pronounce "Tange" any way you like.
Thanks, roe-bear-toe plea-chay, that is the way I think it sounds about right.
kee-ay-oh [as they say in Italian (aka Ciao).]
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Gary Helfrich
For what it is worth, I was involved in several projects with Tange in the
early 90's. Whenever I spoke with Hiro Tange, he pronounced his name
TON-gay. He would also respond to "sir". Of course he might have been
using the wrong pronunciation just to mess with the fat round eye.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
TIM...@news.delphi.com
Most Americans I've mest have pronounced "Tange" as if it were "tangy."
I'm sure that someone who speaks Japanese can clarify this, but from
what I learned of the language studying Aikido I'd guess that "Tange"
is properly pronounced "tahn-gay."
Cheers!
Tim
Sergio
About correct pronounciation of names I have two personal stories
to tell.
When I phoned my, very famous, Professor for an appointment I had to
Americanize my name, else he would not understand who was calling.
I once was sitting at an Airport, I believe it was Indianapolis, waiting for
the call for the passengers on stand-by. Very anxious and motivated as I was
I did not realize they were calling me. I had to go through an argument with
the officials to be put back among the lucky ones.
So, sometimes it helps to pronounce well, other times it is necessary to
come to compromise. Anyhow it is good to know what it should be, according
to other people's expectations.
Sergio Servadio
TIM...@news.delphi.com
When the Gatorade Euro team was at teh Tour Du Pont a few years ago, there
were a number of pretty funny mispronounciations reported in the press.
The French riders pronounced their team name "gah-toe-rahd" and many
people thought that Chevrolet-L.A. Sheriffs was also a French team and
called them "Chevrolet- La Shair-eefs."
But I agree with the original poster, tht it's polite to at least try to
get the pronounciation right- at least as much as your own accent will
allow.
Tim
Bev
If Hiro-san's name is pronounced TON-gay, how was it decided that it
should be spelled Tange, which would be pronounced tanj (tangerine) if it
were an English word?
Bev bas...@ktb.net
*************************************************
"Don't force it, use a bigger hammer!"
--M. Irving
Benjamin Goldberg
: But I agree with the original poster, tht it's polite to at least try to
: get the pronounciation right- at least as much as your own accent will
: allow.
I assume that someone within the company did the transliteration to
latin letters. If they wanted the name to be pronounced in a way that
at all resembles the Japanese pronunciation, why did they spell it
"Tange" instead of, say, "Tahn-Gay"? I see two possibilities:
1. They really didn't intend it to be pronounced that way, perhaps
wanting the name to sound more western.
2. Maybe they thought that Americans or Europeans would naturally
pronounce Tange as "Tahn-Gay", although the French would need an accent
on the e and wouldn't get the right g sound. (Question: How would
the Italians pronounce Tange?)
I think many in this discussion have been too quick to assume that
the Japanese pronunciation is the correct one for non-Japanese speakers.
-Ben
P.S. Since I agree that Tange should rhyme with Flange, I have started
to talk about "Those wonderful old Campagnolo high flahn-gay hubs".
--
Dept. of Computer Science (212) 998-3495
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences Fax: (212) 995-4123
New York University __@
251 Mercer Street _-\<,
New York, NY 10012 (*)/(*)
email: gold...@cs.nyu.edu
www: http://cs.nyu.edu/cs/faculty/goldberg/index.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Kawai, Naoyuki
In <4o08us$a...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, lq...@ix.netcom.com(QINGHUA LI ) writes:
>
>I really don't think the correct approach to "How do you pronounce
>'Tange'" should be looking at the way most RBR readers (mainly
>Americans and Brits) pronounce it as if we're voting for a particular
>itself pronounces it -- or at least how Japanese speakers pronounce it.
Well, then let me try to convey the pronunciation of "Tange". It is
pronounced as is, that is, "ta' n ge". The "ge" isn't pronounced
like "gee" or "ji", but "get" without "t".
>I prefer to go with the way the company itself says its name in its
>international markets. Interestingly, sometimes Japanese companies
>pronounce their names differently abroad (I believe that is the case
>for Subaru cars and also for Toyotas (run by the Toyoda family)).
Umm.. "Subaru" and "Toyota" are pronounced almost correctly in the U.S.,
though "Toyota" is pronounced "to' yo ta" in Japan, not "to yo' ta".
(I don't know Toyota company is run by the Toyoda family or the Toyota
family.)
I think almost all Japanese campanies in the US are pronounced correctly
except their accents. The exception I think of now is a camera maker
"Nikon". It is pronouced "ni' ko n" in Japan, not "nai' ko n".
Kawai
IBM Japan
Durer Shomer
Well, thanks, Jobst, for yet another of your lame, unnecessarily caustic
postings. BTW, in my experience, most people here on the "rec.bicyles."
groups pronounce "Jobst Brandt" as "asshole."
Durer
*----------------------------------------------*
| Durer Shomer |
| du...@earthlink.net |
| http://home.earthlink.net/~durer/ |
+----------------------------------------------+
| FixedGearFever |
| "The Online Journal of Bicycle Track Racing" |
| http://home.earthlink.net/~durer/fgf/ |
*----------------------------------------------*
Kristan Roberge
bas...@ktb2.ktb.net (Bev) wrote:
>
> Gary Helfrich wrote:
> | For what it is worth, I was involved in several projects with Tange in the
> | early 90's. Whenever I spoke with Hiro Tange, he pronounced his name
> | TON-gay. He would also respond to "sir". Of course he might have been
> | using the wrong pronunciation just to mess with the fat round eye.
>
> If Hiro-san's name is pronounced TON-gay, how was it decided that it
> should be spelled Tange, which would be pronounced tanj (tangerine) if it
> were an English word?
It was probably translated by a frenchman... TON-gay, if spelled in
french, would be Tangé.
Ken Iisaka
Bev wrote:
>
> Gary Helfrich wrote:
> | For what it is worth, I was involved in several projects with Tange in the
> | early 90's. Whenever I spoke with Hiro Tange, he pronounced his name
> | TON-gay. He would also respond to "sir". Of course he might have been
> | using the wrong pronunciation just to mess with the fat round eye.
>
> If Hiro-san's name is pronounced TON-gay, how was it decided that it
> should be spelled Tange, which would be pronounced tanj (tangerine) if it
> were an English word?
The general level of linguistic ignorance is rather amusing.
Japanese can be written phonetically, and has two sets of phonetic
symbols. There are five vowels (a e i o u) and a distinct set of
consonants. There are a couple of romanisation schemes, but the
Hepburn system introduced about 100 years ago is most commonly used.
It was not designed to be used principally by English speakers (and
English is not a phonetic language) but for those with a knowledge
of Latin.
The Japanese vowel, a is pronounced much like the British a, instead
of the American a which is much closer to ae. It is quite possible
that the Japanese vowel, a sounded like an o to American ears.
Anyhow, Mr. Tange's name is written as:
****** *
* * **
* * * ****
* * * *
* * *******
******** *
* * *******
* * *
* ** *****
in Kanji, or Chinese characters. In the phonetic Katakana system,
his name is written as:
*
* * * * *
*** * * ****
* *** * * *
* * * * *
* * *** * * * *
* *** * * * *
The first character is TA, the consonant t combined with the vowel a.
The second character is a nasal n, but consists of a syllable by itself.
The last character is GE, the consontant g combined with the vowel, e.
Note that unlike English where the consonant changes according to the
vowel that follows it, the consonant stays the same save for a few
limited exceptions. With this rule, it is natural for readers of
romanised Japanese, and most non-English European language speakers,
to pronounce it as ge'.
Let it rest.
(At least, the original poster didn't aeally ask for the correct\
pronounciation of the name.)
QINGHUA LI
Regarding using Latin letters to tranliterate foreign names -- yes
there are relatively standard latinizations of some languages (for
example, the Pinyin system of latinizing chinese names leaves no doubt
about the pronuniation of Mandarin Chinese to someone who knows how to
use the system). And yes, there are standard practices in the
latinization of Japanese.
But to claim that it's OK to mispronounce Tange because the company
didn't spell it in a way that makes its pronunciation clear for English
speakers is absurd. This is the English language you're talking about,
the language with words like "enough" and "though." The spelling makes
the pronunciation of those two real easy -- not! And if we get into
proper names, of places and people, it's even more complex.
John Tomlinson
QINGHUA LI
In <durer-27059...@pool029.max4.orlando.fl.dynip.alter.net>
du...@earthlink.net (Durer Shomer) writes:
>
>In article <Drxo...@hpl.hp.com>, jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
wrote:
>
>> Robert K. Plice writes:
>>
>> > So feel free to pronounce "Tange" any way you like.
>>
>> Thanks, roe-bear-toe plea-chay, that is the way I think it sounds
about right.
>>
>> kee-ay-oh [as they say in Italian (aka Ciao).]
>>
>> Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
>
>Well, thanks, Jobst, for yet another of your lame, unnecessarily
caustic
>postings. BTW, in my experience, most people here on the
"rec.bicyles."
>groups pronounce "Jobst Brandt" as "asshole."
>
>Durer
exactly to Mr. Plice what Plice he says we should do to Tange
constitutes being an asshole, then you Durer are an.... well lets not
get into name calling. But read the thread. Mr. Plice's post was
written very politely but the content of his statement is, IMHO,
offensive and it's good someone pointed that our humourously.
John Tomlinson
QINGHUA LI
In <4ob4oo$1i...@daphnis.yamato.ibm.com> jl0...@yamato.ibm.co.jp
(Kawai, Naoyuki) writes:
>Umm.. "Subaru" and "Toyota" are pronounced almost correctly in the
U.S.,
>though "Toyota" is pronounced "to' yo ta" in Japan, not "to yo' ta".
>(I don't know Toyota company is run by the Toyoda family or the Toyota
>family.)
>Kawai
>IBM Japan
>
I met one of the family guys running Toyota Motor -- Shoichiro Toyoda
-- he spelled it with a "d" and I think he even pronounced it that way.
(sorry for the shameless name dropping).
John Tomlinson
Thomas H. Kunich
In article <4o5gi4$1...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
QINGHUA LI <lq...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>But it is fundamentally disrespectful not to pronounce (or at least
>sincerely try to pronounce) someone (or some company) name the way that
>person/company pronounce it.
But personal nouns have no rules for pronounciation and for all you
know "Tange" is pronounced "Fred".
What this means is that 'best guess' pronounciation by using the
rules of english are the best bet for communicating the object
of your conversation. Trying to find out how Tange pronounces their
company name is about as meaningless as listening to one of those
eternal bores who pepper their conversations with latin phrases.
And I'm sure that Tange doesn't give one hoot how their name is
pronounced here as long as everyone respects their products.
Thomas H. Kunich
In article <durer-27059...@pool029.max4.orlando.fl.dynip.alter.net>,
Durer Shomer <du...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Well, thanks, Jobst, for yet another of your lame, unnecessarily caustic
>postings. BTW, in my experience, most people here on the "rec.bicyles."
>groups pronounce "Jobst Brandt" as "asshole."
Yes, but a well respected and occassionally funny asshole. And at least
he has a sense of humor. Unlike some people.
Thomas H. Kunich
In article <4o8qr6$9...@news.nyu.edu>,
Benjamin Goldberg <gold...@goldberg.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>I assume that someone within the company did the transliteration to
>latin letters. If they wanted the name to be pronounced in a way that
>at all resembles the Japanese pronunciation, why did they spell it
>"Tange" instead of, say, "Tahn-Gay"? I see two possibilities:
Actually there are rules of transliteration written a century or more
ago by some brain-dead Englishman in all probability. Or maybe it was one
of those evil Jesuits who were said to be spreading evil by trying to
bring the word of the Lord to the heathen savages.
In any case, I'm sure that Tange spelled their name the way they thought
it sounded in English. Since the sounds don't exactly match it isn't
quite right.
If we need to be familiar with the pronounciation of a specific words
in order to use them then what is the use of a spoken language? Without
rules there is no language.
Joshua_Putnam
>I assume that someone within the company did the transliteration to
>latin letters. If they wanted the name to be pronounced in a way that
>at all resembles the Japanese pronunciation, why did they spell it
>"Tange" instead of, say, "Tahn-Gay"? I see two possibilities:
>1. They really didn't intend it to be pronounced that way, perhaps
> wanting the name to sound more western.
>2. Maybe they thought that Americans or Europeans would naturally
> pronounce Tange as "Tahn-Gay", although the French would need an accent
> on the e and wouldn't get the right g sound. (Question: How would
> the Italians pronounce Tange?)
3. There's a fairly standard system for transliterating Japanese
for the Latin alphabet, and conforming to modern American
English pronunciation probably wasn't the top priority in
developing the system. Think about it -- the Portuguese use the
same alphabet, and the French, and the Italians.... Better to
clearly define the latinized representation of Japanese
phonetics than to conform those latinizations to any one
European language.
If American English set the standard for "correct" Latin alphabet
pronunciations, we would never see debates over how to pronounce
Mavic, Ciocc, Gipiemme, etc.
On the other hand, I would agree with the people who suggest
using a company's "official" English pronunciation, even if it's
not the same as the native-language pronunciation. It's their
name, after all, not mine, and pronouncing it the way they do is
simple courtesy.
--
Jo...@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
Jeff Bernhard
Thomas H. Kunich (to...@netcom.com) wrote:
:
: But personal nouns have no rules for pronounciation and for all you
: know "Tange" is pronounced "Fred".
:
: What this means is that 'best guess' pronounciation by using the
: rules of english are the best bet for communicating the object
: of your conversation. Trying to find out how Tange pronounces their
: company name is about as meaningless as listening to one of those
: eternal bores who pepper their conversations with latin phrases.
Ed too: Brute, eh?
--
Jeffrey Bernhard Harris Computer Systems Corp.
Jeff.B...@mail.hcsc.com Voice: (954) 973-5496 Fax: (954) 977-5580
*** The opinions expressed herein are mine, not those of my employer! ***
Robert K. Plice
For the record, I found Mr. Brandt's posting to be most amusing, and not
the slightest bit offensive. I'm sorry that I seem to have offended
others with my opinions, although I cannot understand how anyone could be
offended by the way a name is pronounced.
Robert Plice
Carlsbad, CA
QINGHUA LI
In <31AB6B...@appliedcomp.com> "Robert K. Plice"
<rpl...@appliedcomp.com> writes:
>For the record, I found Mr. Brandt's posting to be most amusing, and
not
>the slightest bit offensive. I'm sorry that I seem to have offended
>others with my opinions, although I cannot understand how anyone could
be
>offended by the way a name is pronounced.
>
>Robert Plice
>Carlsbad, CA
The issue is not actually mispronuncing someone's name -- when you
first come across a (to you) new name, you probably have no basis for
the pronunciation so you should just try your best (guess). But that's
a bit different than pronouncing a name "any way you want" once you
know how to pronounce it. At that point, it's a simple courtesy to try
to use the person/company/place's own pronunciation.
John Tomlinson
Holly D
QINGHUA LI wrote:
>
> But to claim that it's OK to mispronounce Tange because the
> company didn't spell it in a way that makes its pronunciation
> clear for English speakers is absurd. This is the English
> language you're talking about, the language with words like
> "enough" and "though." The spelling makes the pronunciation
> of those two real easy -- not!
GHOTI
This spells "fish".
Thats "f" as in "enouGH"
"i" as in "wOmen"
"sh" as in "moTIon"
Holly D
TIM...@news.delphi.com
It's amazing how a simple- and reasonable- question brings out the
assholes in full force.
The Japanese-literate folks have answered the question. Let it be. Take
the flames to e-mail and stop wasting bandwidth on adolescent virtual-nose
tweaking.
Tim
Benjamin Goldberg
Now that we know that "Tange" is pronounced TAHN-gay, can someone
tell me if "Prestige" is pronounced pres-TEE-gay?
(Do I really need a smiley here?)
-Ben
Tullio
One of the local banks calls their ATM card a "Prestige Card." I
regularly call this the press-TIG-ee card. I also refer to the
Union Bank as the Onion Bank and unknowingly called it this in front
of the President AND the Chairman of the Board of the bank. They
hold the loan on my bike shop. Oops.
Todd
David Fang
I believe that this is how you pronounce "Tange"
"Tang-gay"
"Tang" - as in the orange drink.
"gay" - As in "I can say anything due to political correctness".
Eye hope eye didn't spell anything rong...
If you want to flame me or anything else like that, please reply to
ins...@jerks.org
Thanks...
--
Dave