Help on a disk road bike decision

[Mark Cleary]

I am seriously looking into a new disk road bike. I want one with Shimano 105 not Sram. I have thought about Lynskey ( no shimano at this time.) I like Ti but maybe for a better price CF is the better option. I do not want a Trek, or a Specialized for sure. Generally they do not have BSA thread BB. I could go Habanero.

So what do you recommend in my search. I could even go steel but even more unsure about how many steel bikes are really available. I also want hydraulic braking. I checked Canyon and they do not have BSA threaded BB.

Also, have I put too much in the quest on the thread BB. Maybe in the end a press fit is fine. My major concern about them is just they can be more finicky and require more maintenance. In my case my thread BB never have required any maintenance and I getting close to 40,000 on the Habby I have now spins like a top.

I take any suggestions maybe Andrew has things I don't know about. One thing is I sure don't want to pay what I have seen for some of the Ti's that run well over $4500. I trying to keep this in the $3000 ballpark I could fork out more for the right bike.
Deacon Mark

[Joerg]

If I was in the market (only if my 1982 racer would fail) I'd share your
goals. Disk is certainly superior. For a road bike a mechanical disk
brake system can be ok if you aren't overweight and don't carry lots of
stuff. Of course, hydraulic is better but also more maintenance. If you
transport your bike often laying down in a truck bed or an SUV a
hydraulic system can be squishy for a few miles afterwards.

Threaded BB is a must for me, no pressed stuff.

My preference would be steel. No plastics. Titanium is great but pricey
and probably almost unobtanium right now. Mounting facilities for racks
would be another requirement for me.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I have a friend with a relatively new Habanero Ti gravel bike that he's over the moon about. He also said the company is great to deal with, he took delivery in late 2019, so prepandemic...don't know how they've fared since then.

[Lou Holtman]

$3000 for complete Ti bike with hydraulic disks? Well I better keep quiet then.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

... and marketing claims another victim!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I have had a Felt or two and was impressed with them. I also very much prefer 105 parts which are make without any trick manufacturing processes which might cause parts to fail. https://feltbicycles.com/products/fr-race-bike?variant=31975553663094

[AMuzi]

You might have a look at the Gunnar Road Disc:
www.gunnarbikes.com

The limiting factor will be continuing shortages of components.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[sms]

<http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/lechampion-ti-disc-brake-titanium-road-bikes.htm>

Those frames come from Ora in Taiwan that makes most of the titanium
frames in the world.

Those titanium frame Motobecanes sell out quickly and they are sold out
at this time.

But this has a BSA bottom bracket. I think you're obsessing about the
bottom bracket. Ultegra not 105.

[Tom Kunich]

Also very good.

[AMuzi]

Could be, but you don't know that.
He may just like the cleaner looks of a road disc bike.

[Frank Krygowski]

He could speak to that point. But of the people I know who have bought
disc brake bikes in the past several years, not one of them has
mentioned "cleaner looks" as a motivation.

Some have just said, like Mark, "I want a bike with discs." Some,
afterward, have said "Well, they stop better" but had never mentioned
any stopping problems beforehand. They've certainly never had stopping
problems when I've ridden with them.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark Cleary]

I have a Habanero TI road bike it is fantastic I just was wanting a disk bike I could ride and go with 30mm tires for a change of pace. I still would like some thoughts on the BSA threaded BB. It it completely need or do we just deal with press fit. Also does Gunnar sell a whole bike or just frames do you need to go through dealers they do make great bikes
Deacon mark

[AMuzi]

Frames and forks and yes sold through dealers who assemble
to your specs.

[Frank Krygowski]

So what you really want is a titanium bike that accepts 30mm tires, not
necessarily a disc brake bike.

You've posted descriptions of your terrain and riding style. Nothing
you've mentioned has called for discs.

I currently have 28mm tires on my touring bike, but have fitted as fat
as 37 in the past. Five other bikes have 32mm or wider. None of my bikes
have disc brakes.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

But Frank! Everyone knows that disc brakes are better!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Oh really?
'Everyone' said my Weinmann sidepulls were the best in 1965.
'Everyone' told me Mafac centerpulls were better in 1970.
It's so hard to keep up.

[John B.]

Of course I was being facetious (:-)

But one of the best stopping brakes I ever had on a bicycle was Vee
brakes. Properly adjusted they would stop either the front or rear
wheel from turning, on dry "blacktop" pavement when coasting down a
hill at 25 kpm.

And, I suspect that the side pull brakes on my "road" bikes work
equally well although admittedly I have never actually tested them but
once in traffic - maybe 15 kpm - a car stopped rather abruptly in
front of me and I grabbed the front brake and the rear wheel came off
the ground. (I eased off the brake to avoid a "header" and hit the
car.)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes, partially because they
should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro cantilevers on my current
bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking, but then I’d
have to remove the fenders to get the straddle cable low enough.

So there. Now you have heard of somebody who complained about sub-optimal
braking with rim brakes before buying a bike with disks.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On my MTB in winter in snow or slush I far prefer the V-brakes I installed after removing the cantilever ones. The V-brakes have a LOT better stopping than did my PROPERLY adjusted cantilever brakes.

Cheers

[Roger Merriman]

I’ve said it was the main reason for moving from my CX bike cantilever to
the Gravel bike cable and now hydraulic disks.

As a early Gravel bike it has not much bigger tyres, so largely it was
disks that made the choice.

I’ve said this number of times, and the difference both off and on road is
fairly significant.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

That is one of the advantages of disks that road bike frames will accept
wider tyres.

Ignoring braking just having wider tyres on normal roads is a far more
relaxed ride.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

I just measured a bunch of tires mounted on our bikes. 28mm, 32mm, 37mm,
40mm, 48mm. No disc brakes.

> Ignoring braking just having wider tyres on normal roads is a far more
> relaxed ride.

Not many years ago, I was saying here that close clearance frames
limiting tire width to 25mm made no sense. Posters here vigorously
defended the manufacturers of those bikes, saying "... aerodynamics!..."
or "... stiffness!..." or other nonsense.

Now people are defending the manufacturers who say "You must have discs
so you can mount wide enough tires."

Ah, fashion!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I own and ride both very short (<1m) tight clearance frames
and longer slacker machines with mudguards etc. They are
very different in handling, response and road feel. Neither
is better; I like both for different reasons, different
rides, different days. Nothing wrong with choice IMHO.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/20/2022 1:09 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>
> The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes, partially because they
> should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro cantilevers on my current
> bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking, but then I’d
> have to remove the fenders to get the straddle cable low enough.
>
> So there. Now you have heard of somebody who complained about sub-optimal
> braking with rim brakes before buying a bike with disks.

Maybe we should talk about your brake setup in detail. I say that
because I have three bikes with conventional cantilevers and fenders and
absolutely no braking problems. (That's not counting the direct pull or
"v-brake" bikes.)

Our tandem has low profile SunTour XC cantis with grey Kool Stop shoes.
That setup works fine for stopping almost 300 pounds of riders plus
almost 50 pounds of bike.

What problems are you having?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

One of my main objections to then-fashionable close clearance frames was
the fact that they _restricted_ choice. When a person bought one, they
eliminated the option of installing tires wider than 28mm, and sometimes
limited choice to 25mm or less.

I suppose a purchaser might say "It's my choice to restrict my choices."
But it never made practical sense.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Why wouldn't you simply install V-brakes and have more stopping power than you need?

[Tom Kunich]

You live in an area where bikes with chainguards and fenders are useful for a very large amount of the year. So you learn to ride those types of bikes and those geometries. Here it rains for only perhaps a week or two continuously so I simply do not ride in those conditions. Though all of my bikes are presently running 28's except for one that only has clearance for 25's. If there is a chance I might be caught out in the rain, I would ride the 28's. One time we had a prediction of a slight chance of rain before 6 pm and it damn well started pouring at 11 am. It was nice to have wide tires then.

[Roger Merriman]

My experience was that wider tired rim brakes where fairly poor, the CX
before the gravel bike. Ignoring off road. Was fairly dreadful even on nice
dry roads, with posh pads, the 90’s MTB was okay, to be fair. Comparable to
dual pivots, though my memory was it was less effected by wet weather.

>
>> Ignoring braking just having wider tyres on normal roads is a far more
>> relaxed ride.
>
> Not many years ago, I was saying here that close clearance frames
> limiting tire width to 25mm made no sense. Posters here vigorously
> defended the manufacturers of those bikes, saying "... aerodynamics!..."
> or "... stiffness!..." or other nonsense.
>
> Now people are defending the manufacturers who say "You must have discs
> so you can mount wide enough tires."
>
> Ah, fashion!
>

No some folks have been wanting better brakes on road for decades, and with
that the idea of a wider tires road bike. Mainly due to rim brakes being
less efficient as the tire size increases.

If your at the more traditional end of road be that racers particularly
pros or some tourers, it’s less if any gain.

though I have noticed number of round world types have gone for more modern
tubeless/disks. Though still dynamos to charge stuff plus lights etc.

Roger Merriman.

[AMuzi]

On 7/20/2022 9:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/20/2022 1:09 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>
>> The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes,
>> partially because they
>> should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro
>> cantilevers on my current
>> bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking,

>> but then I’d

>> have to remove the fenders to get the straddle cable low
>> enough.
>>
>> So there. Now you have heard of somebody who complained
>> about sub-optimal
>> braking with rim brakes before buying a bike with disks.
>
> Maybe we should talk about your brake setup in detail. I say
> that because I have three bikes with conventional
> cantilevers and fenders and absolutely no braking problems.
> (That's not counting the direct pull or "v-brake" bikes.)
>
> Our tandem has low profile SunTour XC cantis with grey Kool
> Stop shoes. That setup works fine for stopping almost 300
> pounds of riders plus almost 50 pounds of bike.
>
> What problems are you having?
>
>

You may be overlooking another factor.
I have never felt a lack of braking power on my bicycles[1]
as an adult. But I have made major and expensive auto brake
upgrades because they were necessary to aggressive driving.

Riding style is important to the rider's need and/or
perception of his braking system. If you don't ride as they
do, your perception of 'adequate' will be different. No
one's wrong about his own opinion but they do vary quite a bit.

[1]Mostly sidepulls, one centerpull currently and one
ancient very dependable but poor performing drum. No discs.

[Frank Krygowski]

I can't argue against "some" folks wanting better brakes on road for
decades. Why? Because "some" is marvelously unspecific. Five or ten
people qualify as "some."

What I can say is in 40 years of riding with members of a ~300 person
club, I don't recall anyone ever saying they wanted better brakes.
Complaints if any must have always been rare.

In the last 40 years, the closest I remember to personally complaining
was one time, riding to work in rain and descending a long hill that
topped out at 10%. I remember braking very early and having to squeeze
quite hard. Hardly a tragedy!

We rode across the continent, sea to shining sea - two bikes with
cantilevers, one with dual pivots - carrying full camping loads. We rode
in all sorts of weather. We climbed and descended mountain passes. No
brake problems.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

>>>> Ignoring braking just having wider tyres onĀ normal roads

>>>> is a far more
>>>> relaxed ride.
>>>
>>> Not many years ago, I was saying here that close clearance
>>> frames limiting tire width to 25mm made no sense. Posters
>>> here vigorously defended the manufacturers of those bikes,
>>> saying "... aerodynamics!..." or "... stiffness!..." or
>>> other nonsense.
>>>
>>> Now people are defending the manufacturers who say "You must
>>> have discs so you can mount wide enough tires."
>>>
>>> Ah, fashion!
>>>
>>
>> I own and ride both very short (<1m) tight clearance

>> frames and longer slacker machines with mudguards etc.Ā

>> They are very different in handling, response and road
>> feel. Neither is better; I like both for different
>> reasons, different rides, different days. Nothing wrong
>> with choice IMHO.
>
> One of my main objections to then-fashionable close
> clearance frames was the fact that they _restricted_ choice.
> When a person bought one, they eliminated the option of
> installing tires wider than 28mm, and sometimes limited
> choice to 25mm or less.
>
> I suppose a purchaser might say "It's my choice to restrict
> my choices." But it never made practical sense.
>
>

On the nearly all[1] the bicycles I have owned, I never
wished for anything not a 23mm tubular. I do own and ride a
very nice, much beloved bicycle with greater clearances &
mudguards which could accept fat tires although I never have
considered that. The option is critical to many riders but I
am not one of them. YMMV as it certainly does.


[1]exceptions- a tandem I once built with 32mm tires and a
cute little folder with 20x1.75

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/20/2022 11:37 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not many years ago, I was saying here that close clearance frames
>>> limiting tire width to 25mm made no sense. Posters here vigorously
>>> defended the manufacturers of those bikes, saying "... aerodynamics!..."
>>> or "... stiffness!..." or other nonsense.
>>>
>>> Now people are defending the manufacturers who say "You must have discs
>>> so you can mount wide enough tires."
>>>
>>> Ah, fashion!
>>>
>> No some folks have been wanting better brakes on road for decades, and with
>> that the idea of a wider tires road bike. Mainly due to rim brakes being
>> less efficient as the tire size increases.
>
> I can't argue against "some" folks wanting better brakes on road for
> decades. Why? Because "some" is marvelously unspecific. Five or ten
> people qualify as "some."

Ever since I started using road bikes some 20+ years ago chatting, to
friends/club etc particularly I guess as they knew I was MTB the comparison
between and essentially why doesn’t a road bike have disks and similar.

>
> What I can say is in 40 years of riding with members of a ~300 person
> club, I don't recall anyone ever saying they wanted better brakes.
> Complaints if any must have always been rare.

Some folks do move in fairly close circles, and possibly the
terrain/weather? I live in uk, it’s a soggy place road cycling around
london, means you will at some point be riding in wet dirty lanes, even
with Sunday best bikes, this type of riding favours disk over rim.

>
> In the last 40 years, the closest I remember to personally complaining
> was one time, riding to work in rain and descending a long hill that
> topped out at 10%. I remember braking very early and having to squeeze
> quite hard. Hardly a tragedy!
>
> We rode across the continent, sea to shining sea - two bikes with
> cantilevers, one with dual pivots - carrying full camping loads. We rode
> in all sorts of weather. We climbed and descended mountain passes. No
> brake problems.
>
>

10% max is not terribly steep, my experience with the old commute bike and
fully laden is that for that type of riding doesn’t give the brakes (disks)
much worry.

Even a few miles at close on 10% with full panniers, you don’t brake hard
but fairly gently.

It’s certainly has the least powerful brakes of my bikes, as it doesn’t
need more, hydraulics generally ease of use/maintenance plus consistence
braking when wet etc yes though it’s of all my bikes the one that rim
brakes wouldn’t be a deal breaker.

It’s the Gravel/MTB that I’ll drive hard into the corner and brake hard,
and things will if it’s technically enough get hot! Hence my MTB had a
upgrade, and the old commute bike had some handle downs.

In short I’m not remotely surprised you had no problems as your not doing
the riding that it’s likely to need extra power etc.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

Ahh, perhaps that is the reason we seem to have a difference of opinion on disks. I am 6'4" tall and going over the bars is not a difficult thing. So, I would prefer not to do so. The couple of times I've done this was off-road on failure soft landing areas.

[Roger Merriman]

I’m not short, I’m 6ft but I grew up riding bikes off road. Ie moving one’s
body position and learning to get to the bite/slip point.

I’m not remotely concerned that I’ll go over the bars, at least by brakes!

Roger Merriman.

[Ralph Barone]

It takes too much force on the levers to stop the bike. Steep downhill
roads do not inspire confidence. 2009 Surly Long Haul Trucker with 3x9
speed Shimano STI levers and the stock Tektro canto brakes, using the Kool
Stop combination pads (red and grey). The straddle wire is set as low as
it can be above the fender, but yet still allow me to pop out the straddle
wire to remove the wheel. The front used to howl like a banshee until it
got rid of the cable stop on the stem and mounted a stop on the brake
bridge.

[Ralph Barone]

Page 27 of https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Surly_Cat_2009_web.pdf
gives the specs. The brake pads and levers have been replaced as noted
above. Everything else is stock.

[Frank Krygowski]

Back in the day, I did similar things with my cars.

> Riding style is important to the rider's need and/or perception of his
> braking system. If you don't ride as they do, your perception of
> 'adequate' will be different. No one's wrong about his own opinion but
> they do vary quite a bit.

Yes, riding styles can vary; but even back when I was at my fastest and
rode with the local fast guys, braking was never an issue.

I don't doubt that "Hey, I'm a fast, tough rider - um, relatively"
convinces some road bicycle consumers that they need discs, in the same
way it convinces some that they need aero wheels, aero frames, carbon
fiber everything, ever less weight, ever fewer spokes, ever more cogs.

But the overwhelming majority of cyclists really don't need those
things. Their riding is negligibly better after those purchases.

It's very similar to the friend of mine who spent big bucks for the
carbon fiber hood for his sports car.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark Cleary]

I am a jazz guitarist and when you take out a Gibson Super 400 they expect big things out of your hands. If you have not done the work then it will be a disappointment for sure. Getting on a 16 pound super road bike with premium wheels and the latest Dura Ace groupset will not put you in the Tour unless you have the talent and done the work. Even doing the work won't help if you do not have the gifts of super VO2.

If truth be known my ride today of 53 miles done on Shimano 6800 Ti weighs about 18.5 lbs naked: On a golden age steel frame from past with downtube shifters I might not be one bit faster. But I don't know unless someone sends me one to test.
Deacon Mark

[AMuzi]

On 7/20/2022 2:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/20/2022 12:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/20/2022 9:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/20/2022 1:09 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes,
>>>> partially because they
>>>> should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro
>>>> cantilevers on my current
>>>> bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking,

>>>> but then I’d

Well, on that sad note we very much agree.
Most people are average, as am I.

> It's very similar to the friend of mine who spent big bucks
> for the carbon fiber hood for his sports car.
>


--

[Tom Kunich]

I prefer not to compare myself to others but to depend on experimentation and research of my own to settle problems rather than depending on people selling things to do it for me.

[Sir Ridesalot]

A number of winters ago I and a buddy were out riding on slushy/snowy country roads. On a downhill stretch we both went to slow down his bike with V-brakes decelerated and later stopped in a LOT LESS distance than my bike with properly setup and adjusted cantilever brakes did. Since switching my bike to V-brakes it too slows or stops in much shorter distances than it did with the PROPERLY setup and adjusted cantilever brakes.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

On 7/20/2022 5:10 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:26:21 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/20/2022 2:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/20/2022 12:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/20/2022 9:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 7/20/2022 1:09 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes,
>>>>>> partially because they
>>>>>> should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro
>>>>>> cantilevers on my current
>>>>>> bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking,

>>>>>> but then I’d

Yes, we're all unique individuals.
But within broad parameters we're average cyclists.

[John B.]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 16:50:14 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:26:21 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/20/2022 2:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 7/20/2022 12:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 7/20/2022 9:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 7/20/2022 1:09 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes,
>> >>>> partially because they
>> >>>> should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro
>> >>>> cantilevers on my current
>> >>>> bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking,

>> >>>> but then I’d

My experience with cantilever brakes is that the distance from the
pivot to the cable attachment and the distance from the pivot to the
brake pad are the defining factors. A simple factor of leverage.
Sheldon had a full page article about it:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html

But, of course, that factor also effects the amount of movement of the
brake levers that pull the cable (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

?
Did Tommy write this?

[John B.]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 17:59:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 5:10:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:26:21 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 7/20/2022 2:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > > On 7/20/2022 12:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >> On 7/20/2022 9:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >>> On 7/20/2022 1:09 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes,
>> > >>>> partially because they
>> > >>>> should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro
>> > >>>> cantilevers on my current
>> > >>>> bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking,

>> > >>>> but then I’d

Yup, that's our boy Tommy.

But of course as the Great Gatsby was described, "He had an endless
fund of tales, of which he was always the hero and evidence disregard
for the truth that these demonstrated made all his facts and
information suspect."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:46:30 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

According to my Google based research, lying is the norm on the
internet. Notice the large number of articles on the topic:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lies+on+the+internet>
Of course, the author of the articles never lies. Maybe in the
virtual world of the internet, Tom is the normal person, and we are
the exception? What a horrible thought.

"How to Catch a Liar Online"
<https://www.wikihow.com/Catch-a-Liar-Online>
Out of 14 characteristics, I think Tom qualifies for 1 through 8 and
probably not 9 through 14. I'm a bit worries about #5, "They switch
between verb tenses". I do that quite often. Oh-oh.

Topic Drift: I've been doing self-isolation at home since Friday,
waiting for the Covid symptoms to arrive. So far 6 days and no
symptoms. I'll run rapid antigen tests tomorrow and Friday per CDC
guiedlines. I made a stupid decision that resulted in getting exposed
to a customer with Covid-19. It's amazing how much work I can get
done at home when I hae a good reason to tell everyone who calls or
emails to go away for a while. I should self-isolate more often.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 20:50:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:46:30 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 17:59:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>><ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 5:10:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>> I prefer not to compare myself to others
>
>>>?
>>>Did Tommy write this?
>>>> but to depend on experimentation and research of my own to settle problems rather than depending on people selling things to do it for me.
>
>>Yup, that's our boy Tommy.
>>
>>But of course as the Great Gatsby was described, "He had an endless
>>fund of tales, of which he was always the hero and evidence disregard
>>for the truth that these demonstrated made all his facts and
>>information suspect."
>
>According to my Google based research, lying is the norm on the
>internet. Notice the large number of articles on the topic:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=lies+on+the+internet>
>Of course, the author of the articles never lies. Maybe in the
>virtual world of the internet, Tom is the normal person, and we are
>the exception? What a horrible thought.

Gee, I which you had posted this sooner. All that time I've spent
researching information in order to tell the truth is wasted

>"How to Catch a Liar Online"
><https://www.wikihow.com/Catch-a-Liar-Online>
>Out of 14 characteristics, I think Tom qualifies for 1 through 8 and
>probably not 9 through 14. I'm a bit worries about #5, "They switch
>between verb tenses". I do that quite often. Oh-oh.

Goodness Gracious... A far easier method is just to assume that if it
is Tommy it is a lie. You might, possibly, be in error once or twice a
year but over all you'd be right on target. Certainly 999/1,000 (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 11:45:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 20:50:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

(chomp)

>>According to my Google based research, lying is the norm on the
>>internet. Notice the large number of articles on the topic:
>><https://www.google.com/search?q=lies+on+the+internet>
>>Of course, the author of the articles never lies. Maybe in the
>>virtual world of the internet, Tom is the normal person, and we are
>>the exception? What a horrible thought.

>Gee, I which you had posted this sooner. All that time I've spent
>researching information in order to tell the truth is wasted

Sorry, but I just experienced the revelation and instant
enlightenment. I had always been taught that truth, honesty, and
logic were the tools of the righteous. However, after skimming the
multitude of articles declaring that lies are the norm, and that even
fact checkers can sometime be caught lying, I realized the everything
I have learned to this point has been wrong.

>>"How to Catch a Liar Online"
>><https://www.wikihow.com/Catch-a-Liar-Online>
>>Out of 14 characteristics, I think Tom qualifies for 1 through 8 and
>>probably not 9 through 14. I'm a bit worries about #5, "They switch
>>between verb tenses". I do that quite often. Oh-oh.

>Goodness Gracious... A far easier method is just to assume that if it
>is Tommy it is a lie.

Agreed. However, determining if Tom is lying or telling the truth is
fairly easy. Quite often, it seems like he is lying, but there's no
obvious proof. Finding and demonstrating the proof that he's lying is
what I find amusing and entertaining. That is sometimes quite
difficult, takes considerable research, and burns far too much time.
It requires that I think logically, which is difficult for me. Since
Tom tries to cover his lies and fabrications with more lies and
fabrications, it's becoming difficult to find the time needed to fact
check everything he disgorges.

>You might, possibly, be in error once or twice a
>year but over all you'd be right on target. Certainly 999/1,000 (:-)

I've fact checked some of Tom's postings and often found 100% of the
content to be wrong. It seemed amazing that he would lie about things
where it really didn't matter if he told the truth or lied. Many of
his lies were totally un-necessary, but he lied anyway. As long as he
persists, I think 100% lies would be a better estimate.

Welcome to the national data information super-highway, where much of
the information is wrong. When the internet was first contrived,
never in my wildest nightmares did I suspect that might happen.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Agreed. I learn so much proving Tommy is a liar. Due to Tommy's nonstop lies, I am forced to look up and research many things I would not have even thought of. But Tommy throws a new lie about an unrelated topic into every post. So it requires me to expand my horizons and research his lies. I learn so much all due to Tommy. Its great having Tommy the liar here.

Now as for you Jeff, all of your missives about short wave radio repair and building codes and computer repair and all the other topics you converse upon. I read or skim over the information. But due to me not researching it myself, I do not learn as much. Same with Frank and his engineering and John's military history. Its good reading. But not as educational because I am not doing the research myself. Like with proving Tommy's lies.

Its good to have LYING Tommy the LIAR here on this forum!!!!!!!

[John B.]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 22:26:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 11:45:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 20:50:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>(chomp)
>>>According to my Google based research, lying is the norm on the
>>>internet. Notice the large number of articles on the topic:
>>><https://www.google.com/search?q=lies+on+the+internet>
>>>Of course, the author of the articles never lies. Maybe in the
>>>virtual world of the internet, Tom is the normal person, and we are
>>>the exception? What a horrible thought.
>
>>Gee, I which you had posted this sooner. All that time I've spent
>>researching information in order to tell the truth is wasted
>
>Sorry, but I just experienced the revelation and instant
>enlightenment. I had always been taught that truth, honesty, and
>logic were the tools of the righteous. However, after skimming the
>multitude of articles declaring that lies are the norm, and that even
>fact checkers can sometime be caught lying, I realized the everything
>I have learned to this point has been wrong.

Unfortunately, way back when I was little I got a spanking for telling
a lie to my mother and that childhood trauma has effected me my whole
life. Ah well, perhaps, with diligence and perseverance I can overcome
this shortcoming in my twilight years.

>>>"How to Catch a Liar Online"
>>><https://www.wikihow.com/Catch-a-Liar-Online>
>>>Out of 14 characteristics, I think Tom qualifies for 1 through 8 and
>>>probably not 9 through 14. I'm a bit worries about #5, "They switch
>>>between verb tenses". I do that quite often. Oh-oh.
>
>>Goodness Gracious... A far easier method is just to assume that if it
>>is Tommy it is a lie.
>
>Agreed. However, determining if Tom is lying or telling the truth is
>fairly easy. Quite often, it seems like he is lying, but there's no
>obvious proof. Finding and demonstrating the proof that he's lying is
>what I find amusing and entertaining. That is sometimes quite
>difficult, takes considerable research, and burns far too much time.
>It requires that I think logically, which is difficult for me. Since
>Tom tries to cover his lies and fabrications with more lies and
>fabrications, it's becoming difficult to find the time needed to fact
>check everything he disgorges.
>
>>You might, possibly, be in error once or twice a
>>year but over all you'd be right on target. Certainly 999/1,000 (:-)
>
>I've fact checked some of Tom's postings and often found 100% of the
>content to be wrong. It seemed amazing that he would lie about things
>where it really didn't matter if he told the truth or lied. Many of
>his lies were totally un-necessary, but he lied anyway. As long as he
>persists, I think 100% lies would be a better estimate.
>

Well, I suspect that you are correct but being a kind and helpful sort
of chap I was, well, giving Tommy the benefit of the doubt, as it
were, and assuming that he might "get it right" once or maybe even
twice (:-)

But unfortunately I have about come to the point where I don't believe
that Tommy is conscientiously lying, I really do thing he suffers from
the delusion that everything he says is the truth.
https://thedawnmethod.com/how-should-i-respond-when-she-doesnt-make-sense/
A rather kind hearted article about how to deal with someone suffering
from dementia or Alzheimer's.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

From Monty Python's 'Life of Brian', it is a classic

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbzSif78qQ

Lou

[AMuzi]

Given the very lucrative cash stream of chinese wuhan virus
testing, why wouldn't the test facility report random
positive/negative results and skip the actual expense of
actual testing and calibration/verification?

There's plenty of 'prior art'
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epic-drug-lab-scandal-results-more-20-000-convictions-dropped-n747891

[Tom Kunich]

When I was having trouble with my cantilevers, Andrew suggested the V-brakes and that was all of the braking I needed.

[Tom Kunich]

That reminds me of John telling everyone that we had so many "deaths from covid-19" in the US because people didn't wear their masks. Not because the deaths had absolutely nothing to do with covid-19. You can't show him too many times that the deaths from upper respiratory system infections (Covid-19) only occurred in late March and early April of 2020 and since then the rates of death from those sorts of illnesses have been FAR below normal. Since it isn't on Google, his mind turns off. You actually have to know where to look in the CDC statistics and his favorite "factcheck" site denies the CDC statistics. Somehow he is willing to believe that a million people were killed by covid-19 when the CDC shows the number at 8,000. John is a sheep in sheep's clothing.

[Tom Kunich]

The actual rates of deaths from covid-19 was .01% of those who contracted the illness and 99.6% of the people that contracted the illness had been vaccinated. That alone should give you pause to think.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Given the very lucrative cash stream of chinese wuhan virus
>testing, why wouldn't the test facility report random
>positive/negative results and skip the actual expense of
>actual testing and calibration/verification?

Lucrative? I got my test kits free from the Feds, compliments of your
tax dollars:
<https://www.covid.gov/tests>
Thanks for the reminder. I just ordered another round of test kits to
replenish my stash.

>There's plenty of 'prior art'
>https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epic-drug-lab-scandal-results-more-20-000-convictions-dropped-n747891

That sucks. A friend does statistics mostly for clinical trials.
She's provided me with a quite a collection of lab test horror
stories. While faking results is probably possible, I suspect that
accidental mistakes, sloppy handling, equipment failure, and
contamination are much greater dangers. I order blood tests to see
how my various medical conditions are doing roughly every six month.
<https://www.directlabs.com>
I have a 21 year history of various test results. Even though the
tests are highly automated, I've seen a few odd results that are
likely the result of some type of error.

As for faking test result, I'm doing the iHealth antigen rapid test.
It has the bad habit of report both false negative and false positive
results. The solution is to test twice, one day apart. If it shows
positive, I order a different or PCR test. It might be possible to
dry lab or screw up a single test, but three in a row is unlikely.

You might find this interesting (or amusing):
"Retracted coronavirus (COVID-19) papers"
<https://retractionwatch.com/retracted-coronavirus-covid-19-papers/>
250 papers so far have been retracted. Is there anyone remaining who
can be trusted?

[AMuzi]

'Free' to you, other taxpayers not so much:
https://www.hrsa.gov/coviduninsuredclaim/frequently-asked-questions

$75 to $100 per test plus various ancillary add-ons

As with any government program, it's extremely complex. I
found the actual test payment rates by expanding and reading
each section. It's in #38.

[Jeff Liebermann]

I found it under "Payment Questions -> Beginning Jan 1, 2021, what is
the HSRA Covid-10 Uninsured Program reimbursement rate..."
"the HRSA COVID-19 Uninsured Program continues to reimburse
independent laboratories at a rate of $100 for COVID-19 PCR testing
claims..."

That's for the more expensive PCR tests, not for antigen tests that
I'm doing. I seem to recall the local drug dispensary having the
iHealth tests at two for $14.

After my last vacation at the local hospital for some inside plumbing
work, I recall being billed $10 for an aspirin pill. At that markup
rate, a $75 PCR test is a bargain.
<https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2009/11/18_dollar_asprin.html>

BTW, the test result was negative. No Covid antibodies found. I try
again tomorrow. If that's also negative, I get to release myself from
my self imposed confinement. Not a moment too soon. The fridge is
almost empty.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:32:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>'Free' to you, other taxpayers not so much:
>https://www.hrsa.gov/coviduninsuredclaim/frequently-asked-questions
>
>$75 to $100 per test plus various ancillary add-ons
>
>As with any government program, it's extremely complex. I
>found the actual test payment rates by expanding and reading
>each section. It's in #38.

You're right. There is a cheaper way to detect Covid-19:

"Artificial intelligence model detects asymptomatic Covid-19
infections through cellphone-recorded coughs"
<https://news.mit.edu/2020/covid-19-cough-cellphone-detection-1029>
"The researchers trained the model on tens of thousands of samples of
coughs, as well as spoken words. When they fed the model new cough
recordings, it accurately identified 98.5 percent of coughs from
people who were confirmed to have Covid-19, including 100 percent of
coughs from asymptomatics - who reported they did not have symptoms
but had tested positive for the virus."

"‘Cough-In-A-Box’ smartphone test for Covid-19 undergoing government
trials"
<https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/08/cough-in-a-box-smartphone-test-for-covid-19-undergoing-government-trials/>

"Testing for COVID with the sound of a cough? There’s an app for that"
<https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/23/covid_detecting_smartphone_app/>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.com.resapphealth.resappdx>
<https://apps.apple.com/au/app/resappdx/id1270490271>
You'll need a doctors prescription to use the app.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/20/2022 3:25 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>

>> Our tandem has low profile SunTour XC cantis with grey Kool Stop shoes.
>> That setup works fine for stopping almost 300 pounds of riders plus
>> almost 50 pounds of bike.
>>
>> What problems are you having?
>>
>>
>
> It takes too much force on the levers to stop the bike. Steep downhill
> roads do not inspire confidence. 2009 Surly Long Haul Trucker with 3x9
> speed Shimano STI levers and the stock Tektro canto brakes, using the Kool
> Stop combination pads (red and grey). The straddle wire is set as low as
> it can be above the fender, but yet still allow me to pop out the straddle
> wire to remove the wheel. The front used to howl like a banshee until it
> got rid of the cable stop on the stem and mounted a stop on the brake
> bridge.

The howling is a vibration problem. I think it can be caused by
flexibility anywhere between the cable stop and the brake itself.
Sounds like you fixed it.

I'm puzzled by your LHT brake problem, and I'd like Andrew's take on it.
We've had tourists on LHTs stay at our house, and none have complained
about their brakes. But looking for online reviews today, I find a
couple that complain about the bike's cantilevers.

ISTM a cantilever brake is one of the simplest possible mechanisms.
Aside from details needed to balance or center the two arms, the brake
is a lever pivoting on a fixed shaft. If the cable and arm pivots are
lubricated, there's not much that can go wrong with the mechanism.

Are the arms on the Tektro brakes very short? The SunTour cantis on our
tandem and touring bikes measure about 63mm from pivot center to cable
attachment. The arms are fairly straight (not L shaped, not much bend)
and clamp the brake shoe at about 25mm. (Ancient Shimano 600 cantis on a
different bike are much shorter.)

I briefly wondered about cable pull of your levers, but I roughly gauged
the cable pull of a friend's STI at ~1/4", not significantly different
than our tandem's non-STI levers.

25 mile ride today (a hot one) on the tandem. Like last week's ride, I
did a lot more braking than I would usually do. We often coast away from
the group on downhills, but I wanted to stay within the group to talk
with a few people we hadn't seen for quite a while. As always, no
problem with brakes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 09:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:19:57 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 2:12:44 AM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 7/20/2022 5:10 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:26:21 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >> On 7/20/2022 2:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >>> On 7/20/2022 12:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>>> On 7/20/2022 9:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >>>>> On 7/20/2022 1:09 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> The next bike I buy will probably have disk brakes,
>> > >>>>>> partially because they
>> > >>>>>> should stop my bike better than the crappy Tektro
>> > >>>>>> cantilevers on my current
>> > >>>>>> bike. I could maybe adjust them to get acceptable braking,

>> > >>>>>> but then I’d

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
or to put it another way... "Crazy old Tommy is lying again".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 11:35:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

The prices that y'all pay for stuff back there in "the land of plenty"
is truly amazing. Here the "Cheap-Charley" Covid test kits are $1.20
and sold in supermarkets. Of course the State medical system won't
admit you to the hospital based on the results but they are cheap.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
1,021,048 deaths from Covid.
Tommy, this is the CDC webpage. It says 1,021,048 have died from Covid as of July 21, 2022. Where are you looking?

> and his favorite "factcheck" site denies the CDC statistics. Somehow he is willing to believe that a million people were killed by covid-19 when the CDC shows the number at 8,000. John is a sheep in sheep's clothing.

See above CDC website Tommy. 1,021,048 dead from Covid so far.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
1,021,048 dead from Covid.
89,824,190 Covid cases.
1.1367% dead from Covid of those who catch it. I think your lack of education, no high school diploma, is evident here Tommy. You do not understand how percentages work. Above you write .01%. But you likely meant to write .01. Which translates into 1%. You have to move the decimal two places to the right. 1% and 1.1367% are close enough that I will allow both to mean the same thing. But there is a 113 times difference between .01% and 1.1367%. You're 113 times wrong. New record for Tommy?

As for your new lie of 99.6% of the people contracting Covid having been vaccinated. The vaccinations were not released until early 2021. 9-10 months after Covid appeared in March 2020.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_totalcases
The above link shows the total Covid cases on a timeline. As of January 1, 2021, there had been 20,365,443 Covid cases. No vaccinations available up until that point in time. That is about 22% of the total Covid cases of 89 million as of now. So 22% of Covid cases happened before there was any vaccination at all. Therefore, your made up lie of 99.6% of the people that contracted the illness had been vaccinated is a LIE. Made up nonsense. Tell us Tommy, does making up nonsensical lies increase blood flow to a certain part of your body? And that is why you do it?

[Ralph Barone]

The brakes are Tektro Oryx 992
https://www.amazon.ca/Tektro-Oryx-Front-Black-Standard/dp/B002EW8NDS

If I pulled the fenders off, I might be able to get the straddle cable
lower. V-brakes might also work, but STIs have the wrong pull ratio, and I
don’t want to take out the STI shifters.

[AMuzi]

> don’t want to take out the STI shifters.
>

The usual path is a compound pulley, used as oem setup on
Santanas with STi for 25 years:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/vbpulley.jpg

[Frank Krygowski]

It looks to me like those cantilever arms are very short. Some
measurements would be nice, but assuming ~25mm between the pivot and the
brake shoe clamp, those seem to be less then 40mm long.

These are something like what I have (not my picture though):
https://i0.wp.com/restoringvintagebicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2018-07-15-050.jpg?resize=225%2C300&ssl=1

Again, mine measure about 63mm. That gives a lot more leverage to the
cable pull and also allows a lower straddle cable without fender
clearance problems. Both factors increase braking force.

And I suppose if someone wanted to, they could go with the old style
cantilevers with L-shaped arms. I abandoned those because of clearance
problems with my panniers, but I think they do have advantages.

I just checked to see if I still had the L-shaped cantis that came on my
touring bike, but I must have given them away. Sorry.

About cantilever brakes, Rodriguez says "I have always said the problem
with cantilevers is that they are lighter, easier to adjust, less
expensive, and work better than the other types of brakes."

That's from https://www.rodbikes.com/articles/brakes.html

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

>> don’t want to take out the STI shifters.

>
> It looks to me like those cantilever arms are very short.
> Some measurements would be nice, but assuming ~25mm between
> the pivot and the brake shoe clamp, those seem to be less
> then 40mm long.
>
> These are something like what I have (not my picture though):
> https://i0.wp.com/restoringvintagebicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2018-07-15-050.jpg?resize=225%2C300&ssl=1
>
>
> Again, mine measure about 63mm. That gives a lot more
> leverage to the cable pull and also allows a lower straddle
> cable without fender clearance problems. Both factors
> increase braking force.
>
> And I suppose if someone wanted to, they could go with the
> old style cantilevers with L-shaped arms. I abandoned those
> because of clearance problems with my panniers, but I think
> they do have advantages.
>
> I just checked to see if I still had the L-shaped cantis
> that came on my touring bike, but I must have given them
> away. Sorry.
>
> About cantilever brakes, Rodriguez says "I have always said
> the problem with cantilevers is that they are lighter,
> easier to adjust, less expensive, and work better than the
> other types of brakes."
>
> That's from https://www.rodbikes.com/articles/brakes.html
>

As Jobst noted often, a simple measurement from brake pivot
to cable anchor and then from pivot to shoe contact will
reveal the actual MA. Similarly effective cantilevers can
be made with several popular formats. The physics of it
doesn't change for arms curved in or out or straight or
curlicue - just measure point to point. (brake design can be
screwed up in any format too).

Some riders like the aesthetic of 1930s style sticky-outie
Mafac type arms while some tourists complain of cargo
interference with those. Both can brake equally however.

[Lou Holtman]

Hmm, OP asked for advice on a disk road bikes and now we discussing cantilevers. How is that happened? Oh wait I know the answer. Never mind.

Lou

[Eric Pozharski]

with <v89jdh1b3je962799...@4ax.com> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:32:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>>'Free' to you, other taxpayers not so much:

*SKIP*

> You're right. There is a cheaper way to detect Covid-19:
> "Artificial intelligence model detects asymptomatic Covid-19
> infections through cellphone-recorded coughs"
> <https://news.mit.edu/2020/covid-19-cough-cellphone-detection-1029>
> "The researchers trained the model on tens of thousands of samples of
> coughs, as well as spoken words. When they fed the model new cough
> recordings, it accurately identified 98.5 percent of coughs from
> people who were confirmed to have Covid-19, including 100 percent of
> coughs from asymptomatics -

I smell false advertisement. About this 1.5%, is it false positive or
false negative? This looks like false positive (but I'm not that good
at deciphering ads). If it is, then what's rate of false negative?

> who reported they did not have symptoms
> but had tested positive for the virus."
>
> "‘Cough-In-A-Box’ smartphone test for Covid-19 undergoing
> government trials"
> <https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/08/cough-in-a-box-smartphone-test-for-covid-19-undergoing-government-trials/>
>
> "Testing for COVID with the sound of a cough? There’s an app for
> that"
> <https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/23/covid_detecting_smartphone_app/>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.com.resapphealth.resappdx>
> <https://apps.apple.com/au/app/resappdx/id1270490271> You'll need a
> doctors prescription to use the app.

Yup, false positive it is. Sounds about right.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, it's a little more complicated. The direction of the force vector
matters, because it's the distance perpendicular to the line of action
of the force that really matters, not the distance to the attachment point.

For an extreme case, if one had near-straight low profile cantilever
arms and (for some reason) a super long straddle cable pulling almost
vertically on the end of the arm, the actual moment arm would be far
less than the length of the brake arm.

Use the center image here
https://www.mathsisfun.com/physics/images/moment-wrenches.svg but
replace the wrench with the brake arm, and turn the force arrow around
to represent the tension of the straddle cable.

> Similarly effective  cantilevers can be made with several popular
> formats. The physics of it doesn't change for arms curved in or out or
> straight or curlicue - just measure point to point. (brake design can be
> screwed up in any format too).

I think one advantage of the old L-shape arms is the effective moment
arm (i.e. perpendicular distance) stays more constant as force is
applies, as things flex and as shoes wear. If anything, that distance
tends to increase.

With ~straight arm low profile cantis, those three conditions all
decrease the effective moment arm. But granted, if things are rigid
enough the change isn't much.

> Some riders like the aesthetic of 1930s style sticky-outie Mafac type
> arms while some tourists complain of cargo interference with those. Both
> can brake equally however.


--

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Run for cover! It's the Usenet police!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

I’d argue the “easier to adjust”. There are too many degrees of freedom,
all of which have some effect on braking efficiency. Compare to a V-brake
which has essentially one adjustment (cable length) beyond the pad
adjustments which are common to all rim brakes.

I should probably replace the Tektros with some other brand that allows
higher leverage without needing an ultra-low straddle cable, but that
quickly turns into a research project. Short arm V brakes might also be an
option.

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom should get those. Instead of constantly swapping bikes and
components, he could busy himself exploring all the degrees of freedom.

Oh, and he'd like this: FREEDOM!

>
> I should probably replace the Tektros with some other brand that allows
> higher leverage without needing an ultra-low straddle cable, but that
> quickly turns into a research project. Short arm V brakes might also be an
> option.

Our Bikes Friday have Shimano direct pull brakes. I don't think I'd call
them short arm. They measure about 108mm from pivot to cable, about 28mm
from pivot to shoe mounting point. There's huge clearance space above
the fenders, which are mounted pretty high above the fairly wide tires.

In my experience these work well, including touring while towing a
trailer. But then, I seem to have very few problems with brakes. Maybe
my standards are just blessedly low.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

But Lou, disc brakes and cantilever brakes on bicycles are both bicycle related. That is a monumental improvement over most discussions. So no criticism.

[Roger Merriman]

>>> https://i0.wp.com/restoringvintagebicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2018-07-15-050.jpg?resize"5%2C300&ssl=1

>>>
>>>
>>> Again, mine measure about 63mm. That gives a lot more leverage to the
>>> cable pull and also allows a lower straddle cable without fender
>>> clearance problems. Both factors increase braking force.
>>>
>>> And I suppose if someone wanted to, they could go with the old style
>>> cantilevers with L-shaped arms. I abandoned those because of clearance
>>> problems with my panniers, but I think they do have advantages.
>>>
>>> I just checked to see if I still had the L-shaped cantis that came on my
>>> touring bike, but I must have given them away. Sorry.
>>>
>>> About cantilever brakes, Rodriguez says "I have always said the problem
>>> with cantilevers is that they are lighter, easier to adjust, less
>>> expensive, and work better than the other types of brakes."
>>>
>>> That's from https://www.rodbikes.com/articles/brakes.html
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> Hmm, OP asked for advice on a disk road bikes and now we discussing
>> cantilevers. How is that happened? Oh wait I know the answer. Never mind.
>>
>> Lou
>
> But Lou, disc brakes and cantilever brakes on bicycles are both bicycle
> related. That is a monumental improvement over most discussions. So no criticism.
>

True!

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 12:14:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>These are something like what I have (not my picture though):
>https://i0.wp.com/restoringvintagebicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2018-07-15-050.jpg?resize=225%2C300&ssl=1

This link should produce a better photo:
<https://i0.wp.com/restoringvintagebicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2018-07-15-050.jpg>

[Frank Krygowski]

Talking again about Long Haul Trucker cantilevers:

That bike just came up in conversation with a guy I rarely get to talk
with. He's a university employee in a completely different department.
We were standing in a reception line for the funeral of a mutual friend
who used to work at the university.

Anyway, we talked quite a while about outdoor sports. He's noted for his
ultra-marathoning, and we chatted about kayaking, but I didn't realize
he had done bicycle tours. He said "Oh yes, Paul XXXX and I did the ride
from Pittsburgh to DC, and we rode across North Carolina [etc.]. I've
got a Surly Long Haul Trucker."

So I asked him about his LHT's brakes. I said I recently learned some
people complained about the brakes being weak. He seemed surprised, and
said he'd never noticed a problem.

I wonder if Surly changed brake models at some time, changing things for
the worse.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

I see three possibilities.

1) Surly used a crappy brake in 2009
2) I’m not very good at setting up cantilever brakes
3) Your friend doesn’t have fenders on his bike, thus allowing a better
straddle cable angle

[AMuzi]

On 7/27/2022 2:04 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/22/2022 12:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/22/2022 12:38 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 7/20/2022 3:25 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our tandem has low profile SunTour XC cantis with grey
>>>>>> Kool Stop shoes.
>>>>>> That setup works fine for stopping almost 300 pounds
>>>>>> of riders plus
>>>>>> almost 50 pounds of bike.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What problems are you having?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It takes too much force on the levers to stop the bike.
>>>>> Steep downhill
>>>>> roads do not inspire confidence. 2009 Surly Long Haul
>>>>> Trucker with 3x9
>>>>> speed Shimano STI levers and the stock Tektro canto
>>>>> brakes, using the Kool

>>>>> Stop combination pads (red and grey). The straddle

>>>>> wire is set as low as
>>>>> it can be above the fender, but yet still allow me to
>>>>> pop out the straddle

>>>>> wire to remove the wheel. The front used to howl like

>>> lower. V-brakes might also work, but STIs have the

>>> wrong pull ratio, and I

>>> don’t want to take out the STI shifters.

Cantilever manufacturers uniformly recommend setup with the
two sides of the transverse wire 90 degrees apart at rim
contact. (Shimano provides their LinkWire system to achieve
that angle).

Bike assemblers and riders try to overthink this and come up
with some crazy extreme setups, which affect brake response
and performance, to which I'd attribute a significant amount
of cantilever complaints.

[John B.]

I wonder... I have successfully replaced cantilever brakes with Vee
brakes which provided much stronger braking. It is a bit of a fiddle
as, if I remember, the brake lever travel should be longer for Vee
brakes but by setting the pad clearance very close I was able to
manage it.

You might want to read
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Sorry, I forgot to ask about the presence of fenders. I used them when we've done the
Pittsburgh to DC route (almost entirely on oft-muddy trail) but he may not have.

He's a musician, & AFAIK not much of a mechanical guy. Your knowledge is probably better than his.
So I'm betting it's a different model of cantilever brake.

- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

Web searches tend to imply that the stock brakes on the LHT are not so
good.

PS: even though your friend is a musician, it’s entirely possible that he
has a better bicycle mechanic than I do.

[Ralph Barone]

Yup. Been there. Read that. The issue with V brakes on STI levers is that
you get more braking force as long as you don’t run out of lever travel.
You can buy short arm V brakes, which sit halfway betwixt the two extremes,
but then fender clearance might be an issue.

[John B.]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 03:02:10 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone

>>>>>> don?t want to take out the STI shifters.

>>> 2) I?m not very good at setting up cantilever brakes
>>> 3) Your friend doesn?t have fenders on his bike, thus allowing a better

>>> straddle cable angle
>>
>> I wonder... I have successfully replaced cantilever brakes with Vee
>> brakes which provided much stronger braking. It is a bit of a fiddle
>> as, if I remember, the brake lever travel should be longer for Vee
>> brakes but by setting the pad clearance very close I was able to
>> manage it.
>>
>> You might want to read
>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>
>Yup. Been there. Read that. The issue with V brakes on STI levers is that
>you get more braking force as long as you don’t run out of lever travel.
>You can buy short arm V brakes, which sit halfway betwixt the two extremes,
>but then fender clearance might be an issue.

Yes, but, as a general statement, "bad brakes" is usually due to the
ratio of the distance from the pivot to the pads versus distance from
pads to cable so short arms generally mean less braking. Assuming good
pads, of course.

For example, I have noticed a rather large difference in braking
between side pull brakes with short "arms" from the pivot to the pads
versus long "arms".

It's sort of far fetched but can you mount the fenders any closer to
the tire and maybe gain a bit more room for the cable? Or just take
the fenders off and try the brakes then.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 7/27/2022 10:02 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 20:00:20 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 7/22/2022 12:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 7/22/2022 12:38 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/20/2022 3:25 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Our tandem has low profile SunTour XC cantis with grey Kool Stop
>>>>>>>>> shoes.
>>>>>>>>> That setup works fine for stopping almost 300 pounds of riders plus
>>>>>>>>> almost 50 pounds of bike.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What problems are you having?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It takes too much force on the levers to stop the bike. Steep downhill
>>>>>>>> roads do not inspire confidence. 2009 Surly Long Haul Trucker with 3x9
>>>>>>>> speed Shimano STI levers and the stock Tektro canto brakes, using
>>>>>>>> the Kool

>>>>>>>> Stop combination pads (red and grey). The straddle wire is set as

>>>>>>>> low as
>>>>>>>> it can be above the fender, but yet still allow me to pop out the
>>>>>>>> straddle

>>>>>>>> wire to remove the wheel. The front used to howl like a banshee

>>>>>> lower. V-brakes might also work, but STIs have the wrong pull ratio,
>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> donÂ’t want to take out the STI shifters.

>>> 2) IÂ’m not very good at setting up cantilever brakes
>>> 3) Your friend doesnÂ’t have fenders on his bike, thus allowing a better

>>> straddle cable angle
>>
>> I wonder... I have successfully replaced cantilever brakes with Vee
>> brakes which provided much stronger braking. It is a bit of a fiddle
>> as, if I remember, the brake lever travel should be longer for Vee
>> brakes but by setting the pad clearance very close I was able to
>> manage it.
>>
>> You might want to read
>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>
> Yup. Been there. Read that. The issue with V brakes on STI levers is that

> you get more braking force as long as you don’t run out of lever travel.

> You can buy short arm V brakes, which sit halfway betwixt the two extremes,
> but then fender clearance might be an issue.
>

+1
Yes, Mini-V seem clever but have limited application.

The usual STi with linear (V) brakes format is a compound
pulley, OEM on Santana tandems for about 25 years, very
effective.

[Tom Kunich]

These are cyclocross V-brakes and the one's I used were from TRP and worked very well without running out of lever pull. I used these with STI and flat bar levers.

[Tom Kunich]

While we're talking about brakes, the Moser doesn't seem to like the Record brakes with 28 mm tires. They rub on the underside of the brakes. Now I just bought a set of late 11 speed Record and they appear to be made with more clearance and I will try them today after my ride. But what do you know about this problem? The Basso which is in the mail is carrying 28 mm tires so I assume that Basso put more clearance in the fork and rear brake mount.

The C50 has no problems at all with the wide tires and they are really needed here since they will roll over the cracks in the road without a problem. J was still riding 23's when descending Mt. Diablo on the north side and they slipped into a particularly crack. Luckily, just before I fell over I rode off the end of the crack. But this same crack pulled down the riding buddy of my physical therapist who broke his spine and became a paraplegic.

After that I've been extremely careful but slowly over time I've relaxed since even bad cracks the 28's roll right over.

[Roger Merriman]

Few years back chatting to a club mate who has a gravel bike which he never
really uses off road, but as a durable road bike. Ie 35-45mm tires just
roll over potholes and what not!

Which is generally a good thing, and realistically they don’t seem any
slower!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I had a cyclocross Redline with 32 mm simi-knobbies on it and I rode with the road group to a road destination and most of the way back and then took a short cut through a park on REALLY horrible trails. This distance that I and they went was pretty similar and I still beat them back. There was q short but steep climb for them and pretty much the same for me but nowhere near as steep.

My present gravel bike has 38's on it and it is a real bear to keep up with a road bike on the road. Last time I did that my legs hurt for three days. So tires make a hell of a difference.

[AMuzi]

On 7/28/2022 10:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 6:07:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/27/2022 10:02 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 20:00:20 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/22/2022 12:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/22/2022 12:38 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/20/2022 3:25 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Our tandem has low profile SunTour XC cantis with grey Kool Stop
>>>>>>>>>>> shoes.
>>>>>>>>>>> That setup works fine for stopping almost 300 pounds of riders plus
>>>>>>>>>>> almost 50 pounds of bike.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What problems are you having?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It takes too much force on the levers to stop the bike. Steep downhill
>>>>>>>>>> roads do not inspire confidence. 2009 Surly Long Haul Trucker with 3x9
>>>>>>>>>> speed Shimano STI levers and the stock Tektro canto brakes, using
>>>>>>>>>> the Kool

>>>>>>>>>> Stop combination pads (red and grey). The straddle wire is set as

>>>>>>>>>> low as
>>>>>>>>>> it can be above the fender, but yet still allow me to pop out the
>>>>>>>>>> straddle

>>>>>>>>>> wire to remove the wheel. The front used to howl like a banshee

>>>>>>>> lower. V-brakes might also work, but STIs have the wrong pull ratio,
>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>> donÂ’t want to take out the STI shifters.

>>>>> 2) IÂ’m not very good at setting up cantilever brakes
>>>>> 3) Your friend doesnÂ’t have fenders on his bike, thus allowing a better

>>>>> straddle cable angle
>>>>
>>>> I wonder... I have successfully replaced cantilever brakes with Vee
>>>> brakes which provided much stronger braking. It is a bit of a fiddle
>>>> as, if I remember, the brake lever travel should be longer for Vee
>>>> brakes but by setting the pad clearance very close I was able to
>>>> manage it.
>>>>
>>>> You might want to read
>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>
>>> Yup. Been there. Read that. The issue with V brakes on STI levers is that

>>> you get more braking force as long as you don’t run out of lever travel.

>>> You can buy short arm V brakes, which sit halfway betwixt the two extremes,
>>> but then fender clearance might be an issue.
>>>
>> +1
>> Yes, Mini-V seem clever but have limited application.
>>
>> The usual STi with linear (V) brakes format is a compound
>> pulley, OEM on Santana tandems for about 25 years, very
>> effective.
>
> While we're talking about brakes, the Moser doesn't seem to like the Record brakes with 28 mm tires. They rub on the underside of the brakes. Now I just bought a set of late 11 speed Record and they appear to be made with more clearance and I will try them today after my ride. But what do you know about this problem? The Basso which is in the mail is carrying 28 mm tires so I assume that Basso put more clearance in the fork and rear brake mount.
>
> The C50 has no problems at all with the wide tires and they are really needed here since they will roll over the cracks in the road without a problem. J was still riding 23's when descending Mt. Diablo on the north side and they slipped into a particularly crack. Luckily, just before I fell over I rode off the end of the crack. But this same crack pulled down the riding buddy of my physical therapist who broke his spine and became a paraplegic.
>
> After that I've been extremely careful but slowly over time I've relaxed since even bad cracks the 28's roll right over.
>

Yes, clearance under the caliper arms varies, Record 11 and
12 giving more room than others/earlier designs.

That said, minor variance of brake bridge or crown height
can be a problem for frames originally designed for 23mm but
now running 28mm.

[Roger Merriman]

Certainly not my experience, it’s has fairly relaxed position so will
suffer at higher speeds but I rarely clog down on the flat though my Strava
times chasing the river down a few miles is closely packed or at least the
times I’ve actually gone for it, be that the two SS bikes I had or the CX
bike or the Gravel bike I have now.

The Gravel is fitted with as is common small Nobbly tires which are very
close to a road tire. It has given me the fastest times though I suspect
that has more to do with effort than anything else!

Certainly with gravel bikes tires can range hugely in performance.

I generally run Schwalbe G-Ones (all around) though have some Pirelli H on
at moment.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

And on today's ride, there was a brake problem I'd never heard of. One
guy running direct pull cantilevers on his road bike completely lost a
rear brake shoe assembly. Not just the rubber - the shoe and mounting
peg and associated hardware were all gone, apparently left lying on the
road somewhere. Obviously things had not been properly tightened down.

He elected to cut the ride short, riding back with use of only his front
brake. He had no problems resulting from that.

There was a bit of discussion from some people who recommended he switch
a remaining shoe to the rear and use just the rear brake. That was voted
down. The front brake is much more important.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Cut the ride short? Why? A front brake is all you need.

Lou

[Sir Ridesalot]

I gave away a FIORI bicycle frameset because you could not get a rear 700C x 28mm tire to go pass the brake bridge = that brake bridge was a fantastic always on brake. The wheel would simple not turn with a 28mm tire on it.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

On 7/28/2022 3:42 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:32:12 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/28/2022 10:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 6:07:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/27/2022 10:02 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 20:00:20 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>>>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2022 12:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2022 12:38 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/20/2022 3:25 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our tandem has low profile SunTour XC cantis with grey Kool Stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shoes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That setup works fine for stopping almost 300 pounds of riders plus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost 50 pounds of bike.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What problems are you having?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It takes too much force on the levers to stop the bike. Steep downhill
>>>>>>>>>>>> roads do not inspire confidence. 2009 Surly Long Haul Trucker with 3x9
>>>>>>>>>>>> speed Shimano STI levers and the stock Tektro canto brakes, using
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Kool

>>>>>>>>>>>> Stop combination pads (red and grey). The straddle wire is set as

>>>>>>>>>>>> low as
>>>>>>>>>>>> it can be above the fender, but yet still allow me to pop out the
>>>>>>>>>>>> straddle

>>>>>>>>>>>> wire to remove the wheel. The front used to howl like a banshee

>>>>>>>>>> lower. V-brakes might also work, but STIs have the wrong pull ratio,
>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>> donÂ’t want to take out the STI shifters.

>>>>>>> 2) IÂ’m not very good at setting up cantilever brakes
>>>>>>> 3) Your friend doesnÂ’t have fenders on his bike, thus allowing a better

>>>>>>> straddle cable angle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder... I have successfully replaced cantilever brakes with Vee
>>>>>> brakes which provided much stronger braking. It is a bit of a fiddle
>>>>>> as, if I remember, the brake lever travel should be longer for Vee
>>>>>> brakes but by setting the pad clearance very close I was able to
>>>>>> manage it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might want to read
>>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup. Been there. Read that. The issue with V brakes on STI levers is that

>>>>> you get more braking force as long as you don’t run out of lever travel.

>>>>> You can buy short arm V brakes, which sit halfway betwixt the two extremes,
>>>>> but then fender clearance might be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> Yes, Mini-V seem clever but have limited application.
>>>>
>>>> The usual STi with linear (V) brakes format is a compound
>>>> pulley, OEM on Santana tandems for about 25 years, very
>>>> effective.
>>>
>>> While we're talking about brakes, the Moser doesn't seem to like the Record brakes with 28 mm tires. They rub on the underside of the brakes. Now I just bought a set of late 11 speed Record and they appear to be made with more clearance and I will try them today after my ride. But what do you know about this problem? The Basso which is in the mail is carrying 28 mm tires so I assume that Basso put more clearance in the fork and rear brake mount.
>>>
>>> The C50 has no problems at all with the wide tires and they are really needed here since they will roll over the cracks in the road without a problem. J was still riding 23's when descending Mt. Diablo on the north side and they slipped into a particularly crack. Luckily, just before I fell over I rode off the end of the crack. But this same crack pulled down the riding buddy of my physical therapist who broke his spine and became a paraplegic.
>>>
>>> After that I've been extremely careful but slowly over time I've relaxed since even bad cracks the 28's roll right over.
>>>
>> Yes, clearance under the caliper arms varies, Record 11 and
>> 12 giving more room than others/earlier designs.
>>
>> That said, minor variance of brake bridge or crown height
>> can be a problem for frames originally designed for 23mm but
>> now running 28mm.

> I gave away a FIORI bicycle frameset because you could not get a rear 700C x 28mm tire to go pass the brake bridge = that brake bridge was a fantastic always on brake. The wheel would simple not turn with a 28mm tire on it.
>

There's a subset of riders who pay me to raise or lower
brake bridges. Not all that unusual a request.

[Sir Ridesalot]

But that'd be a costly conversion considering labour and shipping both ways.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stop combination pads (red and grey). The straddle wire is set as

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> low as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can be above the fender, but yet still allow me to pop out the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> straddle

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wire to remove the wheel. The front used to howl like a banshee

>>>>>>>>>>>> lower. V-brakes might also work, but STIs have the wrong pull ratio,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> donÂ’t want to take out the STI shifters.

>>>>>>>>> 2) IÂ’m not very good at setting up cantilever brakes
>>>>>>>>> 3) Your friend doesnÂ’t have fenders on his bike, thus allowing a better

>>>>>>>>> straddle cable angle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder... I have successfully replaced cantilever brakes with Vee
>>>>>>>> brakes which provided much stronger braking. It is a bit of a fiddle
>>>>>>>> as, if I remember, the brake lever travel should be longer for Vee
>>>>>>>> brakes but by setting the pad clearance very close I was able to
>>>>>>>> manage it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might want to read
>>>>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup. Been there. Read that. The issue with V brakes on STI levers is that

>>>>>>> you get more braking force as long as you don’t run out of lever travel.

>>>>>>> You can buy short arm V brakes, which sit halfway betwixt the two extremes,
>>>>>>> but then fender clearance might be an issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> Yes, Mini-V seem clever but have limited application.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The usual STi with linear (V) brakes format is a compound
>>>>>> pulley, OEM on Santana tandems for about 25 years, very
>>>>>> effective.
>>>>>
>>>>> While we're talking about brakes, the Moser doesn't seem to like the Record brakes with 28 mm tires. They rub on the underside of the brakes. Now I just bought a set of late 11 speed Record and they appear to be made with more clearance and I will try them today after my ride. But what do you know about this problem? The Basso which is in the mail is carrying 28 mm tires so I assume that Basso put more clearance in the fork and rear brake mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> The C50 has no problems at all with the wide tires and they are really needed here since they will roll over the cracks in the road without a problem. J was still riding 23's when descending Mt. Diablo on the north side and they slipped into a particularly crack. Luckily, just before I fell over I rode off the end of the crack. But this same crack pulled down the riding buddy of my physical therapist who broke his spine and became a paraplegic.
>>>>>
>>>>> After that I've been extremely careful but slowly over time I've relaxed since even bad cracks the 28's roll right over.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, clearance under the caliper arms varies, Record 11 and
>>>> 12 giving more room than others/earlier designs.
>>>>
>>>> That said, minor variance of brake bridge or crown height
>>>> can be a problem for frames originally designed for 23mm but
>>>> now running 28mm.
>>> I gave away a FIORI bicycle frameset because you could not get a rear 700C x 28mm tire to go pass the brake bridge = that brake bridge was a fantastic always on brake. The wheel would simple not turn with a 28mm tire on it.
>>>
>> There's a subset of riders who pay me to raise or lower
>> brake bridges. Not all that unusual a request.

>

> But that'd be a costly conversion considering labour and shipping both ways.
>
> Cheers
>

Agreed, crossing national borders with personal property for
service purposes is a paperwork nightmare and exceedingly
expensive. Prohibitive on more than one level.

Aren't there framebuilders in Canada who do repair work?

[Ralph Barone]

OK, I started fiddling in earnest today. After CADDing out the existing
installation so that I could calculate the MA, I started on the rear
brakes. I removed both pads, gave them a gentle scrape over some sandpaper,
scrubbed them with mineral spirits (Varsol, paint thinner…), then cleaned
the rims with a paper towel wetted with mineral spirits (it’s amazing how
much black gunk is on a rim). Sheldon Brown said for low profile cantis to
put the bigger spacer on the inside (between the pad and the arm), so I
swapped my spacers while reinstalling the pads. The mount for the rear
fender had an oval mounting hole, so I was able to drop it about 5 mm,
which gives a bit more room for the straddle cable. Tomorrow I can shorten
the straddle cable, adjust the main cable and see if the rear brakes are
any better. The front will get fiddles with later.

[William Crowell]

Hi Deacon Mark. I am trying to get thin like you, so I can be faster on the bike. So far I have lost 20 pounds, and I intend to lose more. TTYL & have a good one.