POWER WITH GOOD MANNER IN MAGURA HS 11 HYDRAULIC RIM BRAKES: a personal review by Andre Jute

Andre Jute

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May 23, 2010, 9:34:50 PM5/23/10

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POWER WITH GOOD MANNER IN MAGURA HS 11 HYDRAULIC RIM BRAKES: a
personal review by Andre Jute

When about a year and a half ago I mentioned that I was ordering my
new bike with Magura HS 11 brakes, rather than the HS 33 which were
available simply for asking, on the advice of the makers that the HS
11 are more docile and controllable than the HS 33, the RBT peanut
gallery, who had probably never seen a hydraulic rim brake, screeched
that it was a terrible mistake, the HS 11 was more of a drag than a
brake, that *of course* I should order the HS 33. As always I measured
the advice I actually took by the experience and observable general
wisdom of the givers, and stuck to the HS11 even though I'm a hefty
sort and a hard downhill charger. On the other hand I insist that
everything I own and use works with the utmost precision, refinement
and, dare I say it, docility. I don't keep ill-mannered dogs.

My arguments at the time were that the makers of the bike were in the
best position to know what their sort of customer finds most useful,
and that I'm an artist whose mind can wander so that I sometimes
carelessly use the controls clumsily, a perfect recipe for a face-
plant. I had also found Shimano's roller brakes (the top 70/75 models)
on my Trek more than powerful enough but their controllability barely
acceptable, and the Shimano front disc brake on my Gazelle Toulouse
I've always disliked for its lack of predictablity and crude absence
of fine control; it is a brake just waiting to cause an accident.
Besides, the option was always open to buy HS 33 for around 130-170
Euro and retrofit them on the bosses provided on the frame for the HS
11; in the context of the sort of bike I was ordering, that's a drop
in the bucket, and not a waste but money well spent to get the correct
brakes; as we shall see, it proved unnecessary.

Utopia, the makers of my Kranich, are very serious about the docility
of the brakes on their bikes: they even fit the HS 11 without the
brake booster, and advise their customers not to order the booster
until they have tried the brake without. I've never even considered
ordering the booster, either.

Yesterday, after 17 perfectly happy months with the HS 11 I was proved
right. I've always been very happy with the controllability of the HS
11. They're not exactly forget-and-squeeze brakes, as I found out
yesterday, but any rude behaviour on their part is usually confined to
locking up the rear wheel. Otherwise they are the most refined and
progressive bicycle brakes I've ever owned. That there really isn't
much to say about them says it all: they serve quietly and
unobtrusively who serve best. It is true that a few times I've
wondered if I couldn't have used the 10-15 per cent extra stopping
power the HS 33 is reputed to have, but never to the point of actually
looking up the price of the HS 33 at my favourite internet bicycle
component pushers. The controllability of the HS 11 in daily use was
just too much of an attraction to bugger around with it. (There is
also the likelihood that the HS 33 will find no more usable friction
between road and tyre than the HS 11 does, in which case the extra
power of the HS 33 merely adds an unnecessary additional requirement
for fine control by the operator. I'm too old and too experienced to
want to pose as the guy who has to have a Ferrari because it proves I
can control the uncontrollable. Or something. I leave that sort of
childishness to the peanut gallery.)

In any event, the HS 11 have more than enough stopping power to turn
nasty if handled brutally. Emulating Sheldon, I've been consciously
using the front brake only; after all, it does most of the stopping.
Yesterday I overdid it.

I sped down a long steep hill that leads from the countryside into
town. I have my braking points well marked but yesterday I was taking
advantage of the loose gravel having been swept off the last curve by
the winter rains and was probably doing 60kph as I came up to a T-
junction at a busy main road. Just as I braked a fellow standing there
greeted me. I turned my head to nod and in that moment must have
squeezed the front brake too hard because the front wheel just washed
out instantly -- no recoverable sweep like on loose gravel, just gone
in less than the blink of an eye (4/1000ths of a second) -- and the
rear wheel rose. Afterwards I realized that I actually pulled the rear
brake lever too when I realized what happened (I have pretty fast
reflexes for an old guy) but by then the rear wheel was in the air.
All that I managed to do to ameliorate the situation was come down on
my side rather than on my face.

There's no damage to the bike, thank you for asking. A new thick track
suit has holes in one knee and a small mark on my skin. The other shin
has a modest pedal scrape and that's it.

More than strong enough, those Magura HS 11 hydraulic rim brakes. But
generally very docile, unless you're stupid and at the limit don't pay
attention. But then again, I don't suppose too many people with such
bikes ride them as hard as I do, so it is likely that I'm the only one
who has discovered the bite of the Magura HS 11, and it took me 17
months. With any other brakes I've ever had on a bike, considering the
way I ride, that accident would have happened long since and several
times.

I certainly won't be going back to disc brakes for any purpose
whatsoever. And If I order a new bike of any type, I'll order the
Magura rim brakes, and in the HS 11 model, and without the booster.
The docility of Magura's HS 11 in everyday use is a value beyond
price.

Andre Jute
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf

Andre Jute

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May 23, 2010, 9:37:44 PM5/23/10

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> http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich...

Clive George

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May 23, 2010, 10:19:42 PM5/23/10

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> When about a year and a half ago I mentioned that I was ordering my
> new bike with Magura HS 11 brakes, rather than the HS 33 which were
> available simply for asking, on the advice of the makers that the HS
> 11 are more docile and controllable than the HS 33, the RBT peanut
> gallery, who had probably never seen a hydraulic rim brake, screeched
> that it was a terrible mistake, the HS 11 was more of a drag than a
> brake, that *of course* I should order the HS 33.

I'm proud to be one of that peanut gallery, and unlike you I've got
experience of both. The HS11 is good, the HS33 is better.

> Besides, the option was always open to buy HS 33 for around 130-170
> Euro and retrofit them on the bosses provided on the frame for the HS
> 11; in the context of the sort of bike I was ordering, that's a drop
> in the bucket, and not a waste but money well spent to get the correct
> brakes; as we shall see, it proved unnecessary.

The bits on the frame are identical for the HS11 and HS33 (and indeed
the HS22 and 66).

It's just the lever which is different. The HS33 has a smaller master
cylinder, which gives you more power and also more of that
controllability you're looking for. It's also got a nice easy adjuster,
but that's less necessary on a road bike.

(I first discovered Magura rim brakes when struggling to get decent
stopping on our first tandem. Fitted a set of HS66, which at the time
was a very expensive upgrade, and wow! Actual ability to stop. Of course
it's hard to get brakes which are too powerful on a tandem - a friend
managed it with a home made set which unfortunately turned out to be
self-energising and bust his frame, but that's a bit of an outlier).

Peter Howard

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May 25, 2010, 4:24:07 AM5/25/10

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Inattentive cyclist panics, hits brakes, fat arse hits road.

Jim Lyon

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Mar 4, 2022, 11:41:04 AM3/4/22

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I've got a1997 Marin "Mount Vision" ( that choice was largely because suspension has weight, so I went for an alloy frame to cut down the overall weight ) with 1998 Pace RC36 Evo Pro Class long stroke front forks ( the original Marin ones are rubbish ) with medium springs & oil. -Brilliant action, best forks I've had , either motorcycle or MTB ! 20 % softer spring on the rear shock which is a significant improvement ( as was fitting a women's seat - whoever designed men's saddles must have been a real sadist ! ) And cut 1/2" off each end of the handle bar to get neutral steering.
While I've seen some claim V brakes are OK, that was not my experience. Replacing the rear 1,6 mm cable with a 2mm cable was a slight improvement, but changing brake compounds made little difference .Once I'd been out in the country a few times, I was beginning to develop "arm pump" which basically told me I needed a LOT more power in my brakes! I dealt with that by getting a complete (front & rear ) set of Magura HS 11s ( yellow paint with alloy calipers ) & found -

1) Initially they are quite a fiddle to get the calipers lined up with the rim. but after that subsequent set ups are OK.

2) Magura black pads are kr*p - No power & no feel !

3) Magura grey p[ads give more power & feel, but seem to be too hard on the rim, which they wore through ( I mainly use rear brake as that's adequate for most needs by lightening up the steering & anyway, it's what I use in the dirt . So now I've got a new rim fitted, I'm looking for pads that are gentler on the rim, as I'd rather change pads than rims! )

4) General significant improvements to brakes were to fit braided steel hoses front & rear. Also replaced std. plastic backing plates with alloy ones glued with LOCTITE super glue. - You could feel the improvement with them.

5) So far I've been through 16 different brake pad set ups & have fitted Yellow trials pads in the front ( now ONE only, as 2 is way too much - so the other one in front is a Kool Stop Salmon. With 2 yellow pads in the front , bunny hops were way too easy ! And the last thing I wanted was too surprise some dozy car driver & get a "[car] bumper up my jumper" ! Hence going down to one yellow. Even then if you use the front only, you can feel the back end start to rise, but using both front & rear together prevents that. So, for the rear in summer, I'll probably try a pair of Kool Stop Salmons as I know they are reliable.
For winter use I'll probably use 2 x Kool Stop Salmons in the front & 2 "Green Frogs" in the rear.
So the only remaining problem is that as Magura elected to not fit a conventional brake reservoir ( & what isn't there it can't be broken in a spill ! ) In result. the reservoir is the oil in the brake line. So with long tricky descents using rear brake only, the oil will over heat & the brake fades. The only improvement I've found is to spray the alloy backing plates with matt black heat dispersant paint - & just work round it by also using the front brake a bit more until the oil in the rear cools off !
So, a bit of fiddling & fine tuning, but I'm really happy with what I've now got. :) - HTH ?

Tom Kunich

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Mar 4, 2022, 11:49:26 AM3/4/22

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I am probably 190 lbs at the moment - 10 lbs over normal. I ride on the flats with gravel bikes and disks are WAYYY too strong for me. With suspension on a 30% heavier full suspension bike that could be different but not a lot since those great fat 29er tires have a lot of bite. I have gone over the bars once and am super careful not to do so again, but it still makes me nervous. Unless you're really heavy I don't know how you can like them over V-brakes.

Andre Jute

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Mar 5, 2022, 4:38:29 AM3/5/22

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This is an old thread from 2010, Jim. The situation with the Magura rim hydraulic brakes is not different. The last time I looked, the HS11 and HS33 were hydromechanically precisely the same, except for the cosmetics and a different availability of lengths in the pull. The -33 came in "professional" dark grey to let the usual posers feel superior, while the -11 had the option of interchangeable cheerful pastel colors.
?
About the brake blocks. I have used the Magura black blocks for about a dozen years now, and can't fault them. But then, though I'm a fast rider (downhill!), the circumstances of my rides are very different from yours. I ride on low traffic, often empty, small Irish lanes and have little need for high-G emergency stops. And I ride on 622x60 Big Apples inflated to only a fraction over 2 bar, so there's a hell of lot of tyre surface (comparatively speaking) to generate friction with the road; braking problems are likely to be not other vehicles or humans, but bad road surfaces unsettling the tyre to road match. At one stage I tried some of the blocks you mention but liked only the Salmon pinks, and their marginal utility in the wet wasn't worth the bother, so the black blocks returned. You'll grasp how little I use my brakes when I tell you that a set of Magura black blocks lasts me 8500km, say 5000+ miles, even though my bike is often heavily loaded with my painting gear, and my patch of God's own earth is composed entirely of hills. I tend to use the front brake until the back wheel is just on the point of lifting, then hold it down by using the rear brake.
>
Welcome in these halls of madness, Jim. We used to do bicycles here, until the Gang of Thugs ruined the group with their rolling, never-ending bullying. Some of us hope to do bicycles again.
>
Andre Jute
I'm not a technofreak, I tell you. Not! Not! Not!

Andre Jute

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Mar 5, 2022, 4:49:07 AM3/5/22

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I don't have any V-brakes at the moment. My three current bikes have, respectively, a disc front with a roller brake rear, two awesome 70-series roller brakes, and the Magura HS11 hydraulic rim brake front and rear. I agree with you, the disc brake is crap, just hanging around waiting to bite you in the balls. But the modern roller brakes, once the novelty of having such powerful brakes have worn off, are nearly as bad as the discs for insensitive lack of modulation. Some people view the Magura rim hydraulics as a bigger disc the size of the rim, but then you must also view normal V-brakes as discs the size of the rim. What the Maguras share with the V-brakes is excellent modulation, adequate power, reliability and low maintenance, in the case of the Magura disc hydraulics zero maintenance for an indefinite lifespan. I like the Maguras, a lot. Jim is on the right track there. -- AJ

Tom Kunich

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Mar 5, 2022, 3:02:33 PM3/5/22

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Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars and you would never like disks again.

Frank Krygowski

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Mar 5, 2022, 9:48:08 PM3/5/22

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On 3/5/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars and you would never like disks again.

I agree with that. At least for road riding, I think it should require a
fairly hard lever force to lock up a brake.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Lou Holtman

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Mar 6, 2022, 2:17:17 AM3/6/22

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95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.

Lou

Lou Holtman

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Mar 6, 2022, 2:46:00 AM3/6/22

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The biggest part besides technique is getting used to the brakes. All hydro disks I use and have used have excellent modulation. This week I had my first ride of the season on my road bike with rim brakes and CF rims. They really suck compared to the hydro disk brakes on my winter bikes (cross and gravel). Even with those brakes I got used to within a couple of minutes.

Lou

Andre Jute

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Mar 6, 2022, 4:55:47 AM3/6/22

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There is also the consideration of how much attention you want to give your bicycle or, stated alternatively, how many ways you want to divide your attention. For me the act of riding a bicycle is trivial. I normally ride in company as a social occasion, or I did until my riding companions died or grew old. From this spring I'll probably be riding alone more often. Perhaps I'll have time to become a precision rider. The likelihood is that I'll think about other things, like whether I want to stop and paint the view, and the act of riding a bicycle will remain, for me, trivial.
>
Incidentally, during the Mike Vandeman trial, I was amazed at how many of the wretched little environment wreckers in the MTB crowd thought that being MTBers made them somehow special, even entitled to railroad an old environmental campaigner with perjury. What it made them instead was nasty boys with empty heads in which on a single thought -- their entitlement as MTBers -- rattled around overly loudly.
>
A J Curmudgeon
Attention span = <3m for anything except novels or paintings.
>

Roger Merriman

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Mar 6, 2022, 1:38:01 PM3/6/22

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I did occasionally, used to be surprised how sharp the MTB brakes are, as
was quite a gap between it and the CX bike which had truly awful canti, but
now all my bikes have hydraulic disks, the gap isn’t as huge, though still
noticeable, mainly as the old commute bike has fairly cheap brakes.

Roger Merriman

John B.

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Mar 6, 2022, 6:00:26 PM3/6/22

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With the exception of the Japanese bike with the "rod" brakes I have
never owned a bicycle that didn't have what I considered as adequate
brakes. Yes I may have has to "fiddle" with them a bit or change the
brake pads but never inadequate.

I might add that the "strongest" brakes I ever used were Vee brakes on
one particular bike that would stop either or both wheels from turning
while coasting down a hill at a guessed 25 MPH. Can you have "more"
breaking then the ability to stop the wheel from turning?

All of which isn't an argument that you shouldn't use disc brakes, or
dragging your feet for that matter, to stop, if you want to (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

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Mar 6, 2022, 9:14:12 PM3/6/22

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My very first "10 speed" (that low end Staiger I mentioned) had Balila
long reach aluminum center pull brakes running on dimpled chrome steel
rims. I'd call them inadequate. The brake arms were rather thin, and the
brakes howled terribly despite my efforts to toe them in.

But the biggest inadequacy showed up on a day my wife and I were riding
in a downpour. We descended the short steep hill in front of our lot,
intending to slow as usual and turn right and into our driveway. We
actually sailed on at least 50 feet beyond the turn, maybe more.
Squeezing full strength did nothing to slow us. (I understand those
dimples served as reservoirs for water.)

Since then, the brakes I've used have been much better, but the original
long reach center pulls on my Raleigh were pretty weak. I replaced them
with cantilevers. Those and all subsequent brakes (mostly cantilevers)
have been fine.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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Mar 6, 2022, 9:17:18 PM3/6/22

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On 3/6/2022 6:08 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 07:30:08 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 10:22:56 a.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars and
>>>>> you would never like disks again.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with that. At least for road riding, I think it should require a
>>>> fairly hard lever force to lock up a brake.
>>>>
>>> It’s one of those things that folks online worry about mainly comment
>>> sections..
>>>
>>> But folks actually riding, even roadies in real life have generally been
>>> keen, as hydraulic disks generally are easier to live with for most folks,
>>> the advantages are less for a Sunday best club run!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Whenever I put a new set of brakes on any bicycle I then ride the bicycle slowly to an empty parking lot or schoolyard. Once there I ride at different speeds and hit the brakes hard, easy and so on. That gives me a good feel for the bike's new braking system and does so in a safe environment.
>>
>> I really don't understand this fear that so many have of braking hard and being catapulted over the handlebar - no matter what style of brake they're using.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> Well, I don't know about being catapulted over the handle bars but I
> did, once, brake hard enough that the rear wheel came off the ground.

I've practiced that move. Rear wheel barely lifting is as fast as a bike
can decelerate.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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Mar 6, 2022, 9:18:50 PM3/6/22

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On 3/6/2022 7:30 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:05:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> It's not going to be a major problem because true panic stops are rare.
>
> It's a crying shame that one can't practice being startled.

Good point.

ISTR some Pink Panther movies where the inspector had his servant
repeatedly try to ambush him. Something like that might be the ticket.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Rolf Mantel

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Mar 7, 2022, 11:16:05 AM3/7/22

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I don't think even this is any issue. Once you've learned proper
braking techniques, you can handle everything.

The minimal variant is
- keep both hands on the handle bar (80%+ of brake crash victims fail here)
- brake hard with front brake and soft with rear brake (hard both brakes
if you don't know which is which)
- release brakes once you feel the rear wheel lift (this is where the
others fail)
- repeat if necessary

Once you expect the rear wheel to lift and know that releaseing the
brakes is the best reaction, brake modulation is only needed for
optimization, not for crash avoidance.

John B.

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Mar 7, 2022, 6:08:36 PM3/7/22

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On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:16:00 +0100, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

I would certainly agree with you in a rational well thought out
instance but my experience, admittedly in a single emergency
stop/crash, was the taxi stopped in front of me, I grabbed the brakes,
the rear wheel lifted and I hit the taxi, all in the matter of a
second or two.

And yes was going at a speed far in excess of what I should have been.
--
Cheers,

John B.

ritzann...@gmail.com

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Mar 7, 2022, 6:58:38 PM3/7/22

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Maybe my bike mechanic skills are not up to speed, so to speak. But how do you replace long reach center pull brakes (mounted with a hole through the fork crown or the seatstay bridge) with cantilever brakes (mounted on brazed on studs on each fork leg or on the seatstays)?

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

ritzann...@gmail.com

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Mar 8, 2022, 11:56:51 AM3/8/22

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On 3/8/2022 7:02 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 3/6/2022 2:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:02:33 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, in my book the ease of modulation is where it is at. Disks are
>>>> simply too powerful and too easy to lock up. Once time over the bars
>>>> and you would never like disks again.
>>>
>>> 95% of the hydro disk users disagree with you.
>>
>> Fashion.
>>
>
> No certainly the roadies I mix with, the desire for better brakes, after
> all most will have at some point used a MTB and thought I’d like some on my
> road bike please.

Our cohorts differ, then. Those in my bike club seem to never ride
mountain bikes - at least, I can't remember the last time anyone talked
about doing that. (Our club used to have some mountain bike rides in the
schedule, including many I led, but that's long ago.)

Yet one of our best friends said "I plan to buy just one more bike
before I die. I want a bike with disc brakes." I didn't ask why, because
in countless hours riding with her, I never heard a bad word about her
brakes.

Other club members have not mentioned discs, but when they went to buy
new bikes, returned to the rides with discs. It didn't surprise me,
because on new bikes in shops around here, discs are default. The
industry has made it so.

> And it’s not recent, had that sort of conversation with folks going back
> well over decade now.

On road bikes in our club, discs appeared first on one guy's bike maybe
five years ago. (He's also got a huge handlebar bag and hammered
aluminum fenders, but those didn't catch on.) The other disc bikes
popped up about two or three years ago. But most people still ride rim
brakes, and again, I've never heard a complaint about them.

> Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
> by industry but not industry lead.

Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
tires, BTW.

Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
just "better."

To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.

People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
(which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.

And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.

--
- Frank Krygowski

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Mar 8, 2022, 2:02:29 PM3/8/22

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Maybe no one you know of, but in the MTB world better braking has been a quest since before the discipline became a sanctioned sport. I remember complaints of excessive pad wear on longer off-road treks (suggestions to bring spare pads), flex of seatstays robbing power, harsh rim wear - all related to braking issues.

>
> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.

Braking _was_ a problem, and discs were the solution. Granted, I still have calipers on all my road bikes and have absolutely no problem with them, but My last MTB purchase was disc only, and the one before that was disc-ready. I'm running discs on that now, and I've converted my Ti hardtail which was canti-equipped to disc.

>
> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.

If you're going to insist that you've never been given any details, I'm going to insist you weren't paying attention, (possibly willfully). Here's a small smattering of the arguments:

https://blog.mapmyrun.com/rim-versus-disc-brake-debate-explained/
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/disc-brakes-vs-rim-brakes/
https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/cycling/article/the-pros-and-cons-of-using-disc-brakes-on-a-road-bike/
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/road-disc-brakes-everything-you-need-to-know/
https://roadbikeaction.com/the-real-reason-disc-brakes-are-better-than-rim-brakes/
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/disc-brake-vs-rim-brake/

However, a rational argument can still be made for rim brakes
https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/

>
> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.

Disc brakes do work better. However, as I said, I still run rim brakes on all my road bikes, and have no intention on changing that - they work fine for me. Off road it's a completely different story. The power, control, modulation, feel and consistency you get from a disc brake off-road is _seriously_ a game changing experience. In all - save a very few - conditions, rim brakes pale in comparison.

Roger Merriman

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Mar 8, 2022, 2:31:19 PM3/8/22

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Depends on the circles you socialise with, the club which has has a social
bent, though does have some racers, is a fair number of disks about, and
not just with the folks with Gravel bikes.

Go to roadie central such as Richmond Park or Regents and folks doing laps
ie racing snakes most will be on rims still.

>
>> Same goes with stuff like gravel bikes, this has been something picked up
>> by industry but not industry lead.
>
> Sorry, I disagree on both counts. Nobody I know was asking for a bike to
> ride on gravel, and those who recently bought gravel bikes never mention
> using them on gravel. Not that I disagree with the concept of wider
> tires, BTW.
>

Folks have been riding CX bikes in the woods and what not, and certainly
10+ years ago there where bikes being sold that really where intended for
such, and not racing.

At least in the Europe, in America the Gravel racing seemed to kick in, and
i’m fairly sure CX is less of a thing.

> Similarly, nobody was asking for disc brakes, or for any improvement in
> their braking. It was 100% a non-topic. But maybe five years ago, people
> started casually mentioning that "disc brakes are better." No details -
> just "better."
>

That rather suggests that your group is fairly homogeneous. For example in
my cycling social I have folks who have raced in national championships,
and other epic feats, and folks who find the social ride to the cafe and
back fairly epic! And folks like myself who tend to the off road and have
that sort of experience and so on.

> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.
>
> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.
>
> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.

Certainly for myself the Gravel bike vs the CX bike I had before and the
road bikes before that, quite a different experience.

Wider tires mean your far less worried about potholes and the like, and
even on road steep wet stuff, is lot more fun when you don’t have to haul
on the brakes or worry how hot they are getting etc, uk on the whole has
lots of short sharp than long gradual gradients.

Roger Merriman.
>

John B.

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Mar 8, 2022, 7:29:33 PM3/8/22

to

On the other hand we were shopping at a large department store
yesterday and I wandered over to look at the bicycles. These were all
in the "department store" quality range, 5 speed cassettes, etc. and
they ALL had disc brakes,
Which might lead one to believe that discs are the cheap way to build
bikes (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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Mar 8, 2022, 9:18:55 PM3/8/22

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The MTB world is not at all what I'm discussing. I can certainly
appreciate the benefits of discs on a mountain bike, even though I've
never needed them. (As one example, I never did enough muddy mileage on
a mountain bike to wear out a rim, but I've seen others wear them out.)

>> To me, that's a direct response to marketing, just as with N+1 rear
>> cogs, daytime running lights, funny foam hats, reduced spoke counts,
>> aero bike bits and more. All are marketing responses to non-problems.
>
> Braking _was_ a problem, and discs were the solution. Granted, I still have calipers on all my road bikes and have absolutely no problem with them, but My last MTB purchase was disc only, and the one before that was disc-ready. I'm running discs on that now, and I've converted my Ti hardtail which was canti-equipped to disc.

I'm assuming your "braking _was_ a problem" applies only to mountain
bikes, since like me, you have no problem with road calipers.

>> People browse through a magazine and see what's touted in the "reviews"
>> (which are mostly advertising) or other ads. They read the articles
>> touting theoretical improvements, then they see the exact thing sitting
>> in the bike shop and cave in to buy it.
>
> If you're going to insist that you've never been given any details, I'm going to insist you weren't paying attention, (possibly willfully). Here's a small smattering of the arguments:
>
> https://blog.mapmyrun.com/rim-versus-disc-brake-debate-explained/
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/disc-brakes-vs-rim-brakes/
> https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/cycling/article/the-pros-and-cons-of-using-disc-brakes-on-a-road-bike/
> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/road-disc-brakes-everything-you-need-to-know/
> https://roadbikeaction.com/the-real-reason-disc-brakes-are-better-than-rim-brakes/
> https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/disc-brake-vs-rim-brake/
>
> However, a rational argument can still be made for rim brakes
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/

Don't misunderstand me. I've certainly been given details. We've
discussed them here. (And there was nothing new in those articles,
although I detected bias and inaccuracy in some of them.)

My point is that non-denizens of r.b.tech don't read such articles, or
don't read them critically. If they did, I think they'd get as far as
the first sub-headline, "Why discs are better," and stop reading. Their
brains stop at "Discs are better."

Most consumers buy what's fashionable and easily available. That applies
to bikes, motor vehicles, clothing, coffee (or coffee makers), toys and
more. And those consumers who find something new and trendy to buy tend
to assume it's "better" and will find ways to prove it, to demonstrate
they're more sophisticated than the poor masses who still use the old
fashion.

Which, I suppose, does a good job of keeping our consumer economy going.
My 50 year old (!) utility bike is a sin against ... well, whoever the
patron saint of consumerism happens to be!

>> And their riding experience is exactly the same as before.
>
> Disc brakes do work better. However, as I said, I still run rim brakes on all my road bikes, and have no intention on changing that - they work fine for me.

They have always worked fine for almost everybody.

As always, use what you like. But when we discuss these things, we
should look at disadvantages as well as advantages.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

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Mar 9, 2022, 3:03:27 AM3/9/22

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Possibly in regards to the cheap cable pulled ones, fairly ineffective, get
them on all sorts of non performance related stuff like as a hand brake on
wheelchairs and so on.

With that sort of kit yes Frank is on the money it that it’s purely
looks/fashion ie to look better than it is.

GCN (you tube channel) took one down a fairly big hill recently which it
essentially failed at, totally overheated etc.

Roger Merriman