Spoke swaging
carl...@comcast.net
By what process are bicycle spokes swaged? Is it done hot or cold, and
what kind of a machine is employed? Are there many of the machines in
use, and are they on the market?
M. B., Plymouth, Ohio.
We are indebted to the Pope Manufacturing Company, Hartford, Conn.,
for the following:
The spokes are swaged cold in machines made especially for the
purpose, one or two designs of which, however, are now a regular
commodity in the market. What is probably the best known type of
machine is manufactured by the Excelsior Needle Company, of
Torrington, Conn. The principle upon which the different machines
operate is essentially the same, there being only minor differences in
the manner of applying the blow or bringing the die blocks to the
work.
The wire to be swaged is fed by a screw automatically or drawn by hand
through a head in which is carried a holder for the die block, which
is rotated so as to bring the ends of the die blocks in contact with a
number of rolls mounted in a ring, backed up by a heavy casting which
encloses the whole mechanism.
The speed is regulated to give about 9.000 or 10.000 blows per minute.
This means a rotation of the head of about 1,000 revolutions and nine
or ten rolls in the ring; higher frequency of impact would be
accomplished by increasing the number of impact rolls in the ring
above mentioned, against which the die blocks come in contact.
One type of machine rotates the ring of rolls past the ends of the
stationary die blocks. In this case, the wire to be swaged is given a
rapid rotary movement; in the system above described the wire is
relatively stationary.
The ratio of feed of the work to movement of the blocks is about 1/100
of an inch per blow of the dies. It will be seen that the duty of the
dies at such speed upon a piece of work being drawn, say from .083
inch to .050 inch [~2.1 mm to ~1.3 mm!] is very great; consequently,
the dies are made of the very best steel obtainable and very carefully
tempered, and arc lapped to exact shape for contact with the work,
with brass plugs tapered to the proper angle, which is about 15
degrees.
The duty upon the dies varies, of course, with the hardness of the
wire to be swaged and the rapidity with which the work is drawn
through them, the smoothest and best work being done at a moderately
fine feed�everything else being equal.
In successful swaging, the work comes out perfectly smooth, superior,
in fact, to a polished surface.
The full reduction of a bicycle spoke is made at one passage through
the dies. Greater reductions than these referred to might be
accomplished by two or three passages through the machine, with
annealing and pickling between the operations.
Excessive reduction of diameter in one swaging operation is liable to
cause the separation of the fibers and scaling of the stock, which
would be avoided by the annealing, which restores the natural
arrangement of the molecules of the stock. The operation of swaging,
if not carried too far, adds to the tensile strength of the wire if it
remains unannealed.
"Science & Industry," 1898
http://books.google.com/books?id=A3oSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA425
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jim beam
yes, spoke hammering. as opposed to drawing or grinding. not to be
confused with simply butting, i.e. using one of these three methods to
make the spoke thinner in the mid section.
someone
butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt
butt butt butt butt butt butt butt butt
butt butt
butt butt
butt butt butt butt brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r r r r
rr r r butt butt butt butt butt
The above is a representation of the sounds when stopping a narrow
boat equipped with a reversing compression ignition engine. Banging
of elbows whilst quickly changing the valve timing whilst the engine
was braked was not uncommon.
Your butt hangs from your belly, your elbow is one cubit from your
snot reliever.
jim beam
trev, your random typing monkeys are acting up. presumably they're
bored with your lack of neural activity.
someone
butt it doesn't hurt when i think. I think you shold try stress
relieving, use of your elbow essential.
RonSonic
I'm sorry to tell you this, but I'm afraid you have Datakoll's.
jim beam
i don't think we need to know how about your masturbation activities
trev. and i /definitely/ don't need you projecting your thoughts of
same onto me. idiot.
someone
Stress relieving - Beer, elBow, Belly and Butt. what is this
"masturbation" of which you speak? do you partake often?
someone
> yes, spoke hammering. as opposed to drawing or grinding. not to be
> confused with simply butting, i.e. using one of these three methods to
> make the spoke thinner in the mid section.
There is no butting process for a bicycle spoke, the spoke ends cannot
be made to swell up. The centre can be swaged so that the ends appear
as butts. To swage is to reduce the cross section, it is not process
specific.
jim beam
> On 5 July, 03:02, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> yes, spoke hammering. �as opposed to drawing or grinding. �not to be
>> confused with simply butting, i.e. using one of these three methods to
>> make the spoke thinner in the mid section.
>
> There is no butting process for a bicycle spoke, the spoke ends cannot
> be made to swell up.
wrong again trev. maybe you should actually look at one of these
"spoke" things of which you speak but clearly have no experience.
> The centre can be swaged so that the ends appear
> as butts.
it can also be ground and it can also be drawn.
> To swage is to reduce the cross section, it is not process
> specific.
you're wrong there trev. "butting" is the term for the _result_.
swaging [hammering], drawing or grinding are all _methods_ of butting.
what you're saying is "this drawn or ground spoke was hammered". that
would only make sense to someone dumber than the hammer.
someone
Swaging is not in McGraw-Hill dictionary of engineering.
It is is chambers as I have described.
So where do you find swaging to be process specific?
jim beam
don't look in the freakin' dictionary trev, look in the bible.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Hs57XaLW840C&lpg=PP8&ots=SSogr_jpXq&dq=dieter%20swaging&pg=PP8
try and learn something occasionally will you please?
someone
> don't look in the freakin' dictionary trev, look in the bible.http://books.google.com/books?id=Hs57XaLW840C&lpg=PP8&ots=SSogr_jpXq&...
>
> try and learn something occasionally will you please?
So where have you found (not a reference) swaging to be process
specific? As in what application (other than spookes)?
Where in the book does it describe the process of swaging? And also
gives applications? I seem unable to find anything to change my point
of view (and that of McGraw-Hill).
jim beam
> On 8 July, 03:07, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> someone wrote:
>
>>> Swaging is not in McGraw-Hill dictionary of engineering.
>>> It is is chambers as I have described.
>>> So where do you find swaging to be process specific?
>> don't look in the freakin' dictionary trev, look in the bible.http://books.google.com/books?id=Hs57XaLW840C&lpg=PP8&ots=SSogr_jpXq&...
>>
>> try and learn something occasionally will you please?
>
> So where have you found (not a reference) swaging to be process
> specific? As in what application (other than spookes)?
eh? are you really /that/ dumb trev? [rhetorical] just try reading
the cite - swaging is ubiquitous throughout industry in countless
production processes!!! just like grinding and drawing!
>
> Where in the book does it describe the process of swaging?
er, in the bit you evidently haven't read yet.
> And also
> gives applications?
see above.
> I seem unable to find anything to change my point
> of view (and that of McGraw-Hill).
that, trev, is because you're too stooopid to look in the right freakin'
book!
someone
How come you are unable to give me a page number? I think you're
making this up.
someone
There is no description of a process termed swageing within "Handbook
of workability and process design" By George Ellwood Dieter, Howard A.
Kuhn, S. L. Semiatin. Swaging is not a process specific term. A
swage is any tool that will swage (reducing the cross-section of a rod
or tube) such as (but not confined to)a swage block. You're blowing
hot air as usual.
jim beam
eh??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> You're blowing
> hot air as usual.
actually trev, right now i'm blowing bubbles. 'cos your random typing
monkeys are /really/ fucking dim.
someone
The book mention swaging, it does not describe it. Get with the real
world and tell me where swaging as a specific process is used and its
description (not bicycle spokes).
AMuzi
http://midwestcontrol.com/19.php
http://www.lexcocable.com/swaged-wire-ropes.html
http://www.tungsten.com/tungmade.html
(item #4 on that page)
Or heck just by this and swage your own spokes as needed:
http://www.porttownsendrigging.com/services/swage/
excerpt (may be 'sales blather') :
"Swaging actually improves grain structure giving the part
greater strength and an usually fine finish"
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
jim beam
don't confront trev with factual cites - it confuses his typing monkeys
and creates an hysteria of denial.
>
> excerpt (may be 'sales blather') :
> "Swaging actually improves grain structure giving the part greater
> strength and an usually fine finish"
no sales blather, that's perfectly true.
someone
> (item #4 on that page)
>
> Or heck just by this and swage your own spokes as needed:http://www.porttownsendrigging.com/services/swage/
>
> excerpt (may be 'sales blather') :
> "Swaging actually improves grain structure giving the part
> greater strength and an usually fine finish"
>
Which goes to show there is more than one way to swage. It is a
description to reduce the cross section. I do not think that removal
of material to 'reduce' the cross section is ideal or represents the
understanding by most, but more than one reduction method means it is
none specific. It is a better term to decribe how 'butted' spokes are
formed. I still think butted is the correct term for these spokes
because that is how they appear, the thick section being a relatively
small part of the whole. The process of thinning the long centre
section is definitely not butting because the butts are at the ends of
the finished spoke and receive none of this treatment. I do not
believe butted spokes are required except to fit to standard drilled
hubs and standard nipples to standard rims with non-standard spoke
gauges. I would like to see 16swg plain spokes available and rims and
hubs drilled for this gauge. Oh, it would be nice if all
manufacturers offered undrilled components across their range for
specialist builders. Eyelet fitting is only valid for high flange
hubs when an inclined eyelet will benefit the build. The low angular
displacement caused by a low flange hub can be accomodated by a little
dimpling with a nipple washer, which is better for really light rims.
jim beam
no, it's a /method/ of reducing cross section. there are two other
primary methods used in spoke production addition to swaging - neither
of which /are/ swaging!
> I do not think that removal
> of material to 'reduce' the cross section is ideal or represents the
> understanding by most, but more than one reduction method means it is
> none specific. It is a better term to decribe how 'butted' spokes are
> formed. I still think butted is the correct term for these spokes
> because that is how they appear, the thick section being a relatively
> small part of the whole.
ok.
> The process of thinning the long centre
> section is definitely not butting because the butts are at the ends of
> the finished spoke and receive none of this treatment.
there you lost it again.
<snip crap>
like a broken clock that tells time twice a day, you occasionally fail
to get something wrong trev. but that's made up for by your other
exemplary efforts in fucking up even the simple stuff.
someone
No answers as usual, you atre a waste.
jim beam
so your random typing monkeys can operate a keyboard, but they can't
read. pretty much to be expected i guess.
someone
> someone wrote:
> > There is no butting process for a bicycle spoke, the spoke ends cannot
> > be made to swell up.
>
> wrong again trev. maybe you should actually look at one of these
> "spoke" things of which you speak but clearly have no experience.
There are no markings upon the butt of a spoke to suggest anything
other than drawing.
So what process do you imagine increases a spokes diameter to form a
butt?
AMuzi
>>> There is no butting process for a bicycle spoke, the spoke ends cannot
>>> be made to swell up.
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> wrong again trev. maybe you should actually look at one of these
>> "spoke" things of which you speak but clearly have no experience.
someone wrote:
> There are no markings upon the butt of a spoke to suggest anything
> other than drawing.
> So what process do you imagine increases a spokes diameter to form a
> butt?
It is not increased.
The 2mm wire is drawn or swaged* to a 1.8mm center (or 1.9
or whatever)
Go look up DT's name in German and get back to us.
* or (rarely) ground but at any rate smaller than the stock
wire material.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> There is no butting process for a bicycle spoke, the spoke ends
>>>> cannot be made to swell up.
>>> wrong again trev. maybe you should actually look at one of these
>>> "spoke" things of which you speak but clearly have no experience.
>> There are no markings upon the butt of a spoke to suggest anything
>> other than drawing. So what process do you imagine increases a
>> spokes diameter to form a butt?
> It is not increased.
> The 2mm wire is drawn or swaged* to a 1.8mm center (or 1.9 or
> whatever)
This thread along with many previous ones on the subject is the result
a complaint from someone who prefers the old bicycle term "butted"
that well meaning bicycle mechanics attributed to bicycle tubing that
had thicker walls at the ends, but had nothing to do with the
manufacturing process of frame tubes or spokes. These "butted"
components are not made fatter at their ends, but are made thinner in
their mid sections.
> Go look up DT's name in German and get back to us.
It's an interesting name because the company is in a region where
German and French languages collide as in the name of the city
Biel/Bienne (CH). To make everyone happy many commercial names are
bilingual. DT is "Drahtwerke" and "Tuileries", wire-works in German
and French.
> * or (rarely) ground but at any rate smaller than the stock wire
> material.
I can't think of any bicycle parts that are truly "butted" other than
spoke heads that are "upset" clearly showing the die flash on the
conical transition from the crowned head to the spoke shaft.
Jobst Brandt
someone
In form, I have no objection to the term butted for that is their
appearance. I object to the description that they have undergone a
process called butting. That's what rams do to establish seniority.
To say that a spoke is butted during manufacture indicates that the
ends have been thickened, a silly idea and it seems jb then terms the
butted portion the thinner bit in the middle. Not my fault, he seems
to think this is represented by manufacturers websites. I've not seen
this, and I cannot see how it would change my view unless I became a
salesman for the company, which I doubt. The same with frame tubes,
they are butted, but have not been butted. Unless made by a
Glaswiegan on a friday afternoon.
AMuzi
You're still mistaken.
Butted frame tubes, like butted spokes, are pulled or drawn
to be thinner in the center, not upset to be thicker.
from Torelli about classic Columbus SL tube, "... tubing
wall was 0.9mm thick at the ends and drawn down to 0.6mm in
the center of the tubes. This is what is meant by "double
butted". "
and, "Columbus' Brain Oversize (or Brain OS) was 0.8mm at
the butt and drawn down to 0.5mm in the center section."
from
http://www.smartcycles.com/nemo_747.htm
someone
I'm not. You've misread. Perhaps you should be specific in which bit
you think I'm mistaken. Butting is perfomed with a thrust of the
head. A butted spoke is a butted spoke and a butted tube is a butted
tube. Butting a spoke or tube may alter its form but will not make
the ends thicker than the mid portion. Swaging will make the mid
portion thinner than the ends and is still not butting.
>
> Butted frame tubes, like butted spokes, are pulled or drawn
> to be thinner in the center, not upset to be thicker.
That would be difficult with a tube. They are swaged.
>
> from Torelli about classic Columbus SL tube, "... tubing
> wall was 0.9mm thick at the ends and drawn down to 0.6mm in
> the center of the tubes. This is what is meant by "double
> butted". "
>
> and, "Columbus' Brain Oversize (or Brain OS) was 0.8mm at
> the butt and drawn down to 0.5mm in the center section."
>
> fromhttp://www.smartcycles.com/nemo_747.htm
AMuzi
Either you or Reynolds tube are mistaken:
"The tube mill is equipped to produce DOM (draw over
mandrel) shaped custom and hydro formed tubes."
from
http://www.fairing.com/about_us.asp
Since Reynolds was there at the beginning, I trust their
opinion of how they make butted steel tube.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> In form, I have no objection to the term butted for that is their
>>>> appearance. I object to the description that they have undergone
>>>> a process called butting. That's what rams do to establish
>>>> seniority. To say that a spoke is butted during manufacture
>>>> indicates that the ends have been thickened, a silly idea and it
>>>> seems jb then terms the butted portion the thinner bit in the
>>>> middle. Not my fault, he seems to think this is represented by
>>>> manufacturers websites. I've not seen this, and I cannot see how
>>>> it would change my view unless I became a salesman for the
>>>> company, which I doubt. The same with frame tubes, they are
>>>> butted, but have not been butted. Unless made by a Glaswegian on
>>>> a Friday afternoon.
>>> You're still mistaken.
>> I'm not. You've misread. Perhaps you should be specific in which bit
>> you think I'm mistaken. Butting is performed with a thrust of the
>> head. A butted spoke is a butted spoke and a butted tube is a butted
>> tube. Butting a spoke or tube may alter its form but will not make
>> the ends thicker than the mid portion. Swaging will make the mid
>> portion thinner than the ends and is still not butting.
>>> Butted frame tubes, like butted spokes, are pulled or drawn
>>> to be thinner in the center, not upset to be thicker.
>> That would be difficult with a tube. They are swaged.
>>> from Torelli about classic Columbus SL tube, "... tubing
>>> wall was 0.9mm thick at the ends and drawn down to 0.6mm in
>>> the center of the tubes. This is what is meant by "double
>>> butted". "
>>> and, "Columbus' Brain Oversize (or Brain OS) was 0.8mm at
>>> the butt and drawn down to 0.5mm in the center section."
http://www.smartcycles.com/nemo_747.htm
> Either you or Reynolds tube are mistaken:
http://www.fairing.com/about_us.asp
# The tube mill is equipped to produce DOM (draw over mandrel) shaped
# custom and hydro formed tubes.
> Since Reynolds was there at the beginning, I trust their opinion of
> how they make butted steel tube.
Yes, to what is that in opposition? I see no contradiction there.
The tubes are not butted, but are swaged by drawing over variable
diameter mandrels, a process called swaging. The only item I find
missing is a picture of the machine with and without a frame tube.
Jobst Brandt
someone
>
> Since Reynolds was there at the beginning, I trust their
> opinion of how they make butted steel tube.
Their processing and tubesets have changed in 100 years
http://www.reynoldstechnology.biz/buttedtubemadeWEB.html
"Reynolds Butting process in the UK uses a mandrel press "
Not Chinese stock.
Not drawn but pressed. Seems like a swaged process to me. The older
weaker steels could be drawn and this was done. Material advances
mean process changes due to decreased ductility.