The Truth About Bicycle Carry

[Catrike Rider]

In the gun world, different types of shooters favor particular types
of firearms. The same general principle applies to cyclists. Given the
wide variety of riders and bicycles, there’s no simple solution for
bicycle carry. A pistol-packing cyclist must balance ease of access
against retention, consider concealment vs. caliber, and calculate gun
size in relation to weight. In some states, open carry makes bicycle
carry a relatively easy proposition. Until it doesn’t. So I’ve been
investigating concealed bicycle carry. Here are the four basic types
of cycling and my recommendations for each . . .

1. Casual/recreational riders

Casual/recreational cyclists ride slowly on paved pathways for short
times and distances. They wear pretty much the same clothes they’d
wear while walking. They’re the cycling equivalent of people who go to
the range once in a blue moon.

The simple advice for these cyclists: carry on as per normal. If a CCW
system works when you stroll it’ll work when you bike.

Saying that, “naked” pocket carry can be problematic; a small gun can
work its way up your pocket while riding, fall and then skitter on the
pavement. Also, it’s damn near impossible to pull a gun from your
pocket while riding. Yes, while riding. Think escape and evade.

While an inside-the-waistband (IWB) holster is a lot more useful and
discreet, many CCW licensees (especially OFWGs) have trouble sitting
comfortably wearing an IWB holster. That may be doubly true when
bicycling. Obviously, the further around your body you position your
IWB holster the more comfortable it’s likely to be on a bike.

An outside-the-waistband (OWB) holster with a baggy shirt can be an
ideal bicycle carry set-up: comfortable, accessible and discreet. If
you go for OWB, make sure the gun is completely secure in the holster.
There’s no jolt quite like hitting a pothole at speed. Also, bicycles
crash, sometime spectacularly. Best to “wake up” with your gun on your
person.

At the same time, the gun shouldn’t be too tight in the holster, lest
you struggle to remove it when you needed. Retention systems can be
particularly tricky to operate on the move.

Practice (a.k.a. “situational familiarity) is the key. Unload and
safety check your weapon in a discreet location. Then draw and shoot
on the move. You’ll soon see that one-handed shooting practice a
priority for anyone who chooses bicycle carry.

2. Commuter/transportation riders

These riders are experienced and fit. They wear anything from work
clothes (including suits) to lycra. They’re like the shooters who go
to the range on a regular basis with high-end, well-maintained
firepower.

If you bicycle in your normal clothes, carry on as above. If you wear
lycra/jersey, you’re best off carrying in a pack. There are a number
of excellent solutions, like the Drop Leg Motorcycle Scooter ATV
Enduro Dirt Pit Bike Cycling Fanny Pack Waist Belt Bag above.

Road racers/road race wannabes

Think Tour de France and Lance Armstrong: riders wearing brightly
colored, tight-fitting garments atop bikes that weigh as much a
toothpick. Road racers are like shooters who compete on a regular
basis with hugely expensive, extensively modified “race guns.”

Hard-core cyclists typically pay $1 per gram of weight lost on a bike.
A “real” roadie would no more add 1000 grams of gun/holster than jump
on a Schwinn Hollywood. If road racers are about security, they
usually count on their mount’s speed and stealth to avoid or escape a
lethal threat. After that, it’s pepper spray, useful for both dogs and
two-legged predators.

If road racers carry, they pack the smallest, lightest and let’s face
it sexiest gun available. The biggest issue they fail to consider:
sweat. Depending on a rider’s chemistry, sweat can be almost as
corrosive as battery acid. Polymer guns are a godsend, but they must
be maintained and tested religiously.

For OWB, a road racer’s well advised to use a nylon belt (e.g. the
Wilderness Frequent Flyer), a Kydex holster and, again, a plastic
corrosion resistant gun. Fanny pack? You’re kidding, right?

Mountain bikers

Given the forces involved, a fanny pack is the ideal solution for
mountain bike carry. It offers easy access to hydration and armed
self-defense. There are a lot of choices, including packs made for the
job. But it really is a case of try before you buy.

Your gun should fit the pack perfectly: tight but not too tight.
Ideally, it should be a pack you can open with one hand while riding
(see: fumbling above) and have a separate compartment so that you
don’t struggle to draw when push comes to shove.

While a fanny pack enables a larger gun, remember that the more weight
you carry in the pack, the more likely it is that the pack will bounce
around. Strapping it down might solve one problem while creating
another.

If you don’t carry a fanny pack, a gun belt under a jersey with an OWB
holster will git ‘er done. I carry a Glock 17 in this manner with no
difficulty at all, and it’s pretty comfortable. Bike cops carry on a
belt all day long. Although they can do so without getting pulled over
. . .

Bicycling is a terrific way to stay in shape. Staying in shape is a
terrific way to stay alive, both in terms of staving-off
obesity-related conditions and having the strength and endurance to
survive a gunfight. Both on and off your bike.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-truth-about-bicycle-carry/

Apparently, I'm not the only pistaol packing cyclist...
More information about carrying a gun on a bicycle:

https://concealedcarryland.com/concealed-carry-while-bicycling/

https://www.usacarry.com/concealed-carry-tips-biking/

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/gear/top-concealed-carry-options-for-hikers-runners-cyclists/

https://aliengearholsters.com/blog/concealed-carry-for-bicycle-commuters-and-recreational-cyclist/

https://concealedcarryandrew.com/how-to-carry-a-pistol-on-a-bicycle/

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/why-i-carry-a-loaded-gun-on-my-bike-commute-w430828/

[Tom Kunich]

Just think, if you had open carry of AR15's you would never have to worry about Frank or Flunky entering Florida. Nor Slowcumb since it is doubtful that his heart could take a 12 hour flight from the other side of the globe.

[Andre Jute]

That was instructive, exhaustive, and exhausting. What does your Glock 17, fully loaded and with all the paraphernalia to make it useful, transportable and accessible, weigh? -- AJ
>

[Catrike Rider]

Florida will soon have unlicensed conceal carry for everyone who can
legally have a gun, but I'm told that open carry will not happen here,
at least I hope it won't. I would never do it, anyway.

[Andre Jute]

Why won't you do it. I'm not being snippy. I have an American friend who says, "An armed society is a polite society," and it strikes me that that implies open carry. -- AJ
>

[Catrike Rider]

My Bersa .380 weighs 1.8 lbs loaded.. 8rd mag +1 in the pipe. The
Kydex holster probably takes it up to two lbs. The PVC device I built
to carry it is on the Catrike and in the truck and I'm not going to go
out and get it.

[Catrike Rider]

My opinion of anyone who would wander around displaying a gun is that
they would eventually take part in a fast draw contest in the street
at high noon. There's also the fact that a pistol carried in ths open
would be real easy to grab. Then there's the fact that I'm not a
ostentatious person.

[Andre Jute]

Of course, the fact that a person may be carrying a concealed weapon may give the crim pause, or may persuade him that it is best first to shoot the victim in the back. Interesting conundrum. Thanks for the information. -- AJ
>

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 16:48:57 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute

Anybody might be carrying a concealed weapon. That's the beauty of
concealment.

[AMuzi]

On 2/11/2023 5:48 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 10:58:06 PM UTC, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 14:15:07 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 4:03:23 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> In the gun world, different types of shooters favor particular types
>>>> of firearms. The same general principle applies to cyclists. Given the

>>>> wide variety of riders and bicycles, there’s no simple solution for

>>>> bicycle carry. A pistol-packing cyclist must balance ease of access
>>>> against retention, consider concealment vs. caliber, and calculate gun
>>>> size in relation to weight. In some states, open carry makes bicycle

>>>> carry a relatively easy proposition. Until it doesn’t. So I’ve been

>>>> investigating concealed bicycle carry. Here are the four basic types
>>>> of cycling and my recommendations for each . . .
>>>>
>>>> 1. Casual/recreational riders
>>>>
>>>> Casual/recreational cyclists ride slowly on paved pathways for short

>>>> times and distances. They wear pretty much the same clothes they’d
>>>> wear while walking. They’re the cycling equivalent of people who go to

>>>> the range once in a blue moon.
>>>>
>>>> The simple advice for these cyclists: carry on as per normal. If a CCW

>>>> system works when you stroll it’ll work when you bike.
>>>>
>>>> Saying that, “naked†pocket carry can be problematic; a small gun can

>>>> work its way up your pocket while riding, fall and then skitter on the

>>>> pavement. Also, it’s damn near impossible to pull a gun from your

>>>> pocket while riding. Yes, while riding. Think escape and evade.
>>>>
>>>> While an inside-the-waistband (IWB) holster is a lot more useful and
>>>> discreet, many CCW licensees (especially OFWGs) have trouble sitting
>>>> comfortably wearing an IWB holster. That may be doubly true when
>>>> bicycling. Obviously, the further around your body you position your

>>>> IWB holster the more comfortable it’s likely to be on a bike.

>>>>
>>>> An outside-the-waistband (OWB) holster with a baggy shirt can be an
>>>> ideal bicycle carry set-up: comfortable, accessible and discreet. If
>>>> you go for OWB, make sure the gun is completely secure in the holster.

>>>> There’s no jolt quite like hitting a pothole at speed. Also, bicycles
>>>> crash, sometime spectacularly. Best to “wake up†with your gun on your
>>>> person.
>>>>
>>>> At the same time, the gun shouldn’t be too tight in the holster, lest

>>>> you struggle to remove it when you needed. Retention systems can be
>>>> particularly tricky to operate on the move.
>>>>

>>>> Practice (a.k.a. “situational familiarity) is the key. Unload and

>>>> safety check your weapon in a discreet location. Then draw and shoot

>>>> on the move. You’ll soon see that one-handed shooting practice a

>>>> priority for anyone who chooses bicycle carry.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Commuter/transportation riders
>>>>
>>>> These riders are experienced and fit. They wear anything from work

>>>> clothes (including suits) to lycra. They’re like the shooters who go

>>>> to the range on a regular basis with high-end, well-maintained
>>>> firepower.
>>>>
>>>> If you bicycle in your normal clothes, carry on as above. If you wear

>>>> lycra/jersey, you’re best off carrying in a pack. There are a number

>>>> of excellent solutions, like the Drop Leg Motorcycle Scooter ATV
>>>> Enduro Dirt Pit Bike Cycling Fanny Pack Waist Belt Bag above.
>>>>
>>>> Road racers/road race wannabes
>>>>
>>>> Think Tour de France and Lance Armstrong: riders wearing brightly
>>>> colored, tight-fitting garments atop bikes that weigh as much a
>>>> toothpick. Road racers are like shooters who compete on a regular

>>>> basis with hugely expensive, extensively modified “race guns.â€

>>>>
>>>> Hard-core cyclists typically pay $1 per gram of weight lost on a bike.

>>>> A “real†roadie would no more add 1000 grams of gun/holster than jump

>>>> on a Schwinn Hollywood. If road racers are about security, they

>>>> usually count on their mount’s speed and stealth to avoid or escape a
>>>> lethal threat. After that, it’s pepper spray, useful for both dogs and
>>>> two-legged predators.
>>>>
>>>> If road racers carry, they pack the smallest, lightest and let’s face

>>>> it sexiest gun available. The biggest issue they fail to consider:

>>>> sweat. Depending on a rider’s chemistry, sweat can be almost as

>>>> corrosive as battery acid. Polymer guns are a godsend, but they must
>>>> be maintained and tested religiously.
>>>>

>>>> For OWB, a road racer’s well advised to use a nylon belt (e.g. the

>>>> Wilderness Frequent Flyer), a Kydex holster and, again, a plastic

>>>> corrosion resistant gun. Fanny pack? You’re kidding, right?

>>>>
>>>> Mountain bikers
>>>>
>>>> Given the forces involved, a fanny pack is the ideal solution for
>>>> mountain bike carry. It offers easy access to hydration and armed
>>>> self-defense. There are a lot of choices, including packs made for the
>>>> job. But it really is a case of try before you buy.
>>>>
>>>> Your gun should fit the pack perfectly: tight but not too tight.
>>>> Ideally, it should be a pack you can open with one hand while riding
>>>> (see: fumbling above) and have a separate compartment so that you

>>>> don’t struggle to draw when push comes to shove.

>>>>
>>>> While a fanny pack enables a larger gun, remember that the more weight
>>>> you carry in the pack, the more likely it is that the pack will bounce
>>>> around. Strapping it down might solve one problem while creating
>>>> another.
>>>>

>>>> If you don’t carry a fanny pack, a gun belt under a jersey with an OWB
>>>> holster will git ‘er done. I carry a Glock 17 in this manner with no
>>>> difficulty at all, and it’s pretty comfortable. Bike cops carry on a

>>>> belt all day long. Although they can do so without getting pulled over
>>>> . . .
>>>>
>>>> Bicycling is a terrific way to stay in shape. Staying in shape is a
>>>> terrific way to stay alive, both in terms of staving-off
>>>> obesity-related conditions and having the strength and endurance to
>>>> survive a gunfight. Both on and off your bike.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-truth-about-bicycle-carry/
>>>>
>>>> Apparently, I'm not the only pistaol packing cyclist...
>>>> More information about carrying a gun on a bicycle:
>>>>
>>>> https://concealedcarryland.com/concealed-carry-while-bicycling/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.usacarry.com/concealed-carry-tips-biking/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/gear/top-concealed-carry-options-for-hikers-runners-cyclists/
>>>>
>>>> https://aliengearholsters.com/blog/concealed-carry-for-bicycle-commuters-and-recreational-cyclist/
>>>>
>>>> https://concealedcarryandrew.com/how-to-carry-a-pistol-on-a-bicycle/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/why-i-carry-a-loaded-gun-on-my-bike-commute-w430828/
>>>
>>> Just think, if you had open carry of AR15's you would never have to worry about Frank or Flunky entering Florida. Nor Slowcumb since it is doubtful that his heart could take a 12 hour flight from the other side of the globe.
>> Florida will soon have unlicensed conceal carry for everyone who can
>> legally have a gun, but I'm told that open carry will not happen here,
>> at least I hope it won't. I would never do it, anyway.
>>
> Why won't you do it. I'm not being snippy. I have an American friend who says, "An armed society is a polite society," and it strikes me that that implies open carry. -- AJ
>>
>

Mr Tricycle is right and you have not thought deeply on the
problem.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

+1

[AMuzi]

[Frank Krygowski]

Which is why American gun deaths are so low, especially compared to
other similarly developed countries.

Right?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

Eh? Why should I have thought deeply about whatever the "problem" is? It is outside my experience. I was just gathering information from a knowledgeable and experienced party, Catlike. Nor do I intend to think deeply on it, as I doubt I'll ever be in a position where it matters what I think about open v. concealed carry. I might at most use what he told me to illuminate a character in a story, or mention it to one of the several firearms experts who advise me on the right firearms and their use for any character. My memory palace is full of interesting material of this nature, until one day it isn't just "interesting material" but becomes an element in the credibility of a character; at that point I usually discover that I have indeed thought on the subject because it has become relevant; however, if I had previously, in vacuo, forced an opinion on the subject, it may not be in agreement with my character's opinion and may hold up the writing, or even destroy large swatches of it, so no thank you to irrelevant deep thought. YMWV (sic). -- AJ
>

[Catrike Rider]

Gun crimes corelates to general crime stats. The USA is a high crime
country.

[Tom Kunich]

A criminal is then faced with the chance that another citizen looking on would shoot and kill him as he pulls out his weapon to commit a homicide which is what has been happening in Red States.

[Tom Kunich]

My last financial report shows that my keeping my spending down to social security and a little levels has succeeded in leaving me at the moment with more than $900,000. It appears that after another one or two good months I will be finally hack to a million which is what I had before Obama.

I received another email telling me that Flunky again said that he was an engineer after saying he wasn't. He certainly doesn't have the slightest compunction against lying.

I intend to get another .357 Magnum Revolver. It is a dangerous round since the hand loads I have could almost shoot through the side of a Patten tank, but people like Krygowski deserve nothing less.

[AMuzi]

Many posit that the inability or unwillingness of society to
remove criminals from the general population has contributed
to a growing problem.

not only repeat murderers:

https://cwbchicago.com/2023/02/54-a-kia-boy-killed-a-chicago-man-while-having-felony-cases-pending-prosecutors-say.html


but criminality of all sorts:

https://cwbchicago.com/2023/02/mail-thief-burglarized-lakeview-apartment-building-mail-room-14-times-in-9-weeks-prosecutors-say.html

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Which has exactly what to do with troll-boy not putting any effort into his comments on open vs concealed carry?

> I received another email telling me that Flunky again said that he was an engineer after saying he wasn't.

Oh, really? I suppose your "source" would be able to point out where I wrote that? Nice segue BTW - did your ritalin prescription run out?

> He certainly doesn't have the slightest compunction against lying.

Interesting, considering

1) you didn't receive an email with any references about me, so that's a lie.
2) I never stated I wasn't an Electrical Engineer, so that's a lie.

The lies are from you, and a glaring reveal that your character is as lowly as that of the failed writer andre/dakota/andrew. You and the little angry afro-irish troll seem woefully uninformed about what a lie actually is. Hint, contrary to what you both apparently believe, a lie isn't a statement that you disagree with.

> I intend to get another .357 Magnum Revolver. It is a dangerous round since the hand loads I have could almost shoot through the side of a Patten tank, but people like Krygowski deserve nothing less.

Big talk from a little man.

[John B.]

Well... the police, at least here, wander about with an openly
displayed firearm and to date there has been no "high noon" duels :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

To be fair I suspect it’s too engrained culturally and there are other
places with guns such as the Nordic countries though it is different there.

Clearly less guns would seem like a wise idea.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

As usual, Krygowski is a lying sack of shit. MOST gun deaths are suicides or gang wars. Actual gun deaths among law abiding citizens didn't START before prosecutors started releasing homicidal criminals on no cash bail. You don't think that bicyclist was run over and then stabbed to death because he was an upright member of society do you? Remember that Krygowski lives in an area with NO gun crimes and he actually believes that the police will protect him and his family from the 10 million Fentanyl addicts.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 05:15:58 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I hope they're not doing it to show off.

[John B.]

The country with the highest incarceration rate in the world is the
U.S. which rather enforces the fact.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 22:22:34 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

But is it "deaths" or is it "gun deaths"?

Highway "accidents" killed some 42,915 in 2021 and from what I read
more them 90% of these "accidents" were caused by unsafe acts of the
operators.

(firearm homicides were something like 20,000 in 2921)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Most similarly prosperous countries have much lower incarceration rates
compared to the U.S. They also have lower rates of general crime and gun
crime.

I don't know what percentage incarceration you think would work, since
we're already setting records. And I don't know how you'd imprison even
more than we do without new, higher taxes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Probably even more difficult to change habits, almost certainly because it
will restrict car useage, though I’d say we’re probably at peak car to be
honest.

Ie with cities attempting to build themselves around the car, and slowly
the push back has happened.

My commute is one such story it was intended to be one of the many motorway
ring roads of london, only one that got built M25 is largely on the route
of intended Ringway 4 my commute is along Ringway 3 or roads intended to be
upgraded, hence the cycleway probably.

Some bits of london also still have the raised walkways joining buildings
up, some fragments as well.

Not unsurprisingly people disliked having a motorway next to their house or
being unable to use the street so both ideas died in the 60/70’s

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/12/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> But is it "deaths" or is it "gun deaths"?
>
> Highway "accidents" killed some 42,915 in 2021 and from what I read
> more them 90% of these "accidents" were caused by unsafe acts of the
> operators.
>
> (firearm homicides were something like 20,000 in 2921)

Shall I list (again) the advantages of motor vehicle transportation that
counterbalance the admittedly regrettable motor vehicle deaths?

Shall I again ask you to list the advantages of near-unlimited (and
non-hunting) gun ownership that counterbalance the gun deaths? I've made
similar requests frequently. You've been able to list none.

Advantages and disadvantages.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Advantages and disadvantages are heavily slanted personal
opinion. They are not at all objective.

Opinions are like navels, everone has one.

[Frank Krygowski]

Most people have opinions. But rational discussion among rational people
often results in consensus.

Granted, with guns, that sort of discussion is rare.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Hmmmm... one might question the "advantages" of allowing vehicle
operators to kill people while driving drunk, or under the influence
of narcotics, speeding, ignoring stop lights, driving too fast for
conditions, etc.

The disadvantages seem to be:
An estimated 42,915 people died in car crashes in 2021
Approximately 4.8 million people were seriously injured in automobile
collisions in 2020.
The estimated total cost of car crashes in 2020 was $474 billion.
2021 pedestrian fatalities have increased by 13% since 2020.
The average economic cost (including wage losses, medical expenses,
administrative expenses, motor vehicle damage and employers’ uninsured
costs) for a fatal car accident was $1,750,000.
https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/car/car-crash-statistics/

The advantages seem to be that some 28% of auto "trips are 1 mile or
less in distance.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/03/more-than-half-of-all-daily-trips-in-us-were-less-than-three-miles-in-2021.html

And, as this is a bicycle site it might be noted that more then 50% of
all auto trips are 3 miles or less :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

You mentioned autos, implying they are useful and desirable.

Greta Thunberg doesn't think you should have one.

WEF says they will restructure society without private
autos, 'You will own nothing and be happy', as part of their
Great Reset.

People disagree about advantages and disadvantages of
everything. I linked to this woman before, who saved lives
with her newly purchased firearm:

https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/09/26/california-woman-shoots-intruder-day-after-getting-her-gun-n62686

She's alive, as is her husband. She views that positively.

She saved the taxpayers much anguish and expense. Some might
call that an advantage. YMMV.

[AMuzi]

No argument on the facts but what do you suggest?

Many and various schemes to stop drunk driving[1] hit a
plateau years ago despite constant effort and innovation.
And now we have (check out that guy in the next lane!) bongs
and telephones while not-quite driving. Oy!

And cycling? Every year there are many Big Programs to get
more USAians on bicycles. I've written here for over twenty
years that those who ride ride, you can't stop us. Those who
don't ride will not and you cannot make them.


[1] I'm not opposed, but effectiveness is yet evasive.

[John B.]

Yes, you are correct. But then you are the guy hollering and screaming
about the horrifying AR type of firearms which were used in some 3% of
all firearm homicides while "handguns" were used in 72%.

In numbers hand and feet were used in more then twice as many
homicides as were all rifles. :-)

Rational?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well... I keep saying "here" but in reality the Thai police do work
pretty effectively.

They have stop light camera's and even "no left Turn" cameras, we have
laws such as "causing a death" which can, and is, applied to those
that kill someone in a motor vehicle accident (maximum 10 years in the
Slammer), we have a law that states that in the event of an "accident"
if you are proved guilty in causing the "accident" that you are
responsible for all costs incurred by the other party, if you "blow
positive" the cops seize your car on the spot. They award "points" for
various minor road malfeasance and when you reach a certain number the
take your license for 3 months, the first time, and if you drive after
being suspended you are subject to a 10,000 baht fine and/or 3 months
in jail.

Note 10,000 baht is equal to slightly more then one month's salary, at
minimum legal pay rates.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

Those aren't quite the words the scriptwriter put in Inspector Harry Callahan's mouth. -- AJ
>

[Catrike Rider]

We can either put the criminals in prison, or let them prey on the
citizens. The latter requires that the citizens have means to protect
themselves and their property.

[Catrike Rider]

Nonsense... there's not even much consensus in how to ride a bicycle.

The fact is that most people don't have such a need for others to
agree with them as you do.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 09:58:29 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

"Rational discussion, according to Krygowski involves him demanding
that you argue against his claims, instead of him substantiating them.
It's basically the fallacial tactic of "prove me wrong."

[Rolf Mantel]

Other coutries prefer to act a lot earlier: provide appropriate social
infrastructure that poeple don't even start their crime careers.
Preventative measures are orders of magnitude cheaper than corrective
measures.

Rolf

[Catrike Rider]

In the USA that solution has been disabled by previous government
tactics that destroyed family structures.

[Rolf Mantel]

> In the USA that solution has been disabled by previous government
> tactics that destroyed family structures.

It is a typical feature of developes scoiety that the traditional famliy
'Clan' structure breaks down.

Most modern countries have been able to replace this 'Clan' structure by
a family-independent web of trust.
In the worst case (breakdown of society), this system is called
'Organized crime rackets' (aka 'Mafia') while in advanced civilisations,
government provides for the necessary social infrastructure.

The USA seem to have fallen between those two extremes, which was one
reason I decided that 1 Year in the USA was more than enough for myself
(despite the fact that Minnesota seems to have a lot more bottom-up
social infrastructure than other mid-west states due to the large
proportion of Scandianavian-origin settlers).

Rolf

[AMuzi]

A good point.

Perhaps anti-gang violence intermediators out in the
community? Sure, that oughta help.

https://cwbchicago.com/2023/02/gang-intervention-workers-sold-gun-to-undercover-chicago-cop-prosecutors-say.html

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 15:34:02 +0100, Rolf Mantel

What I am referring to is government destruction of a two parent
family by rewarding single parenting.

>Most modern countries have been able to replace this 'Clan' structure by
>a family-independent web of trust.
>In the worst case (breakdown of society), this system is called
>'Organized crime rackets' (aka 'Mafia') while in advanced civilisations,
>government provides for the necessary social infrastructure.

Describe a government provided, family-independent web of trust.

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed, and even then considered how many folks are discovered upon arrival
at prison. Which lets not forget is expensive so even if one isn’t bothered
that some folks struggle there is good societal benefits to being more pro
active ie a somewhat longer view.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/12/2023 9:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/12/2023 7:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/12/2023 8:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Opinions are like navels, everone has one.
>>
>> Most people have opinions. But rational discussion among
>> rational people often results in consensus.
>>
>> Granted, with guns, that sort of discussion is rare.
>>
>>
>
> You mentioned autos, implying they are useful and desirable.
>
> Greta Thunberg doesn't think you should have one.

Fine. Let's have a rational discussion about that.

> People disagree about advantages and disadvantages of everything. I
> linked to this woman before, who saved lives with her newly purchased
> firearm:
>
> https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/09/26/california-woman-shoots-intruder-day-after-getting-her-gun-n62686
>
> She's alive, as is her husband. She views that positively.

As noted before, any one anecdote can be countered by another. Trading
anecdotes doesn't really advance knowledge.

Rational discussion looks at the broad picture, using things like
<gasp!> data. So instead of comparing anecdotes, let's compare data -
for example, data on otherwise comparable nations.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I've concluded that rationality in gun policy, if it ever arrives, will
come in small steps. And I think a reasonable first step is to greatly
restrict a style of gun that has no significant practical advantages for
private citizens, yet is regularly used to murder rooms full of innocents.

It's a question of advantages vs. disadvantages which you refuse to
address. The U.S. government apparently sees no practical advantages to
letting anyone, willy-nilly, own a machine gun. Or an anti-tank weapon.
Or lots of other military armament. That same logic should apply to ARs.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Data indicates that the majority of gun crimes are black on black
crime in Democrat run cities.

[AMuzi]

Intellectually interesting perhaps but I don't live in a
different nation. I have to make accommodations, and
personal judgements, within US culture.

p.s. data:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/oct/5/guns-used-more-for-self-defense-than-crimes/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/13/2023 12:08 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:24:42 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> No argument on the facts but what do you suggest?
>>
>> Many and various schemes to stop drunk driving[1] hit a
>> plateau years ago despite constant effort and innovation.
>> And now we have (check out that guy in the next lane!) bongs
>> and telephones while not-quite driving. Oy!

>>...

>> [1] I'm not opposed, but effectiveness is yet evasive.

I think efforts should continue, of course. Two ideas come to mind:

The first is social. I think a lot of the reduction in DUI was due to
social efforts, to getting broader acceptance of the idea that DUI is
_not_ OK. Campaigns to have (sober) friends influence (drunk) friends,
campaigns for designated drivers, etc. probably helped.

I think it's time to move on to social campaigns that are less gentle.
Ones that make fun of people who would DUI. Portray them as dolts. Make
that behavior an embarrassment. And that should apply to drugs as well
as alcohol. (I note that late night comedians still get approving laughs
for portraying drug use as cool.)

Another proposal to apply in parallel: We should be able to use
technology. Some new cars now have cameras or other sensors to tell
whether the driver is paying attention. I think we could apply
technology to make sure a driver is sober.

>
> Well... I keep saying "here" but in reality the Thai police do work
> pretty effectively.
>

> They have stop light camera's and even "no left Turn" cameras...

I'm in favor of traffic cameras too. The local city is finally employing
them in school zones, because many people think slowing below 45 mph is
too onerous just to protect some little kids.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

...which is but one of the many building blocks I am mentioning above.
Others include:
- families moving several hundred miles away from their grandparents, so
the grandparents cannot support any more
- families having 1 or 2 children instead of 10, so 'unwed uncles and
aunts' cannot support any more
- technology having replaced house servants
- industry jobs instead of farm jobs causing absent fathers for most of
the week even in a 2-parent family
- people wanting to live a luxury life with double income rather than
just surviving on oone person's income
....

>> Most modern countries have been able to replace this 'Clan' structure by
>> a family-independent web of trust.
>> In the worst case (breakdown of society), this system is called
>> 'Organized crime rackets' (aka 'Mafia') while in advanced civilisations,
>> government provides for the necessary social infrastructure.
>
> Describe a government provided, family-independent web of trust.

Two building blocks on the top of my mind are:
- Government support ensures nobody has to starve, live on the street or
be unable to pay his medical bills
- Care workers detect early where there are problems with schooling,
enabling/motivating most kids to leave high school with being able to
read, write, learn

As I don't belong to the classes who need on such a social network I
don't know what else there needs to be.

Rolf

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:08:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski

<CHUCKLE> Many thousands, perhaps millions of people disagree with
Krygowski's interpretation of "significant practical advantages."

>It's a question of advantages vs. disadvantages which you refuse to
>address.

As if Krygowski's definitions of advantages and disadvantages should
be used to identify what other people are allowed to posess.

Well. he seems to think so, anyway.

[Catrike Rider]

I don't disagree with most of what Krygowski says here, except for the
nonsense thing about cars making sure the driver is sober.

[Tom Kunich]

According to Frank, that's a lie. But consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09maaUaRT4M&t=598s

[Frank Krygowski]

I sometimes wonder about the genesis of the different national attitudes. I doubt that countries
with better social networks and much lower crime have more competent sociologists; after all,
sociologists do collaborate across national boundaries.

I think the difference is in the public. Somehow America has grown a huge crop of simplistic thinkers,
who say "Screw the data, _I_ know what's right!" and who cannot be convinced to critically examine
their own views.

I suppose that's a result of our early implementation of democracy - the idea that there should be
no elite, that any educated landowner's vote counts as much as the next. And that any educated
man's idea was worth listening to.

Eventually that philosophy broadened. I have no problem broadening it to non-landowners and
even <gasp!> women. But I think it's a shame that many think "The ignorant idea that just popped into
my mind is just as good as your education, training, research and data."

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:21:07 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/13/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> > Rational discussion looks at the broad picture, using things
> > like <gasp!> data. So instead of comparing anecdotes, let's
> > compare data - for example, data on otherwise comparable
> > nations.
> >
> Intellectually interesting perhaps but I don't live in a
> different nation. I have to make accommodations, and
> personal judgements, within US culture.

You're allowed to make your personal judgment according to your own
standards, so long as you're not putting others at risk. But if we're going
to move the needle on public safety or other societal issues, we need
more than one man's opinion.

"Personal judgment" leads to insanity like people carrying semi-automatic weapons
in public places with many rounds in a magazine and a round in the chamber, safety off,
just in case someone may irritate them.

I think this is the only industrialized country where that is not broadly considered insane;
and our gun death rate that says those other countries are right.

> p.s. data:
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/oct/5/guns-used-more-for-self-defense-than-crimes/

Yes, we've been over that.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/

https://www.thetrace.org/2022/06/defensive-gun-use-data-good-guys-with-guns/

etc.

How many defensive gun uses per year in Canada? And in other countries, where guns aren't falling out of
dresser drawers every day? By now we should have moved beyond an 1890s Tombstone Arizona philosophy.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/13/2023 9:05 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:

I sometimes wonder about the genesis of the different national
attitudes. I doubt that countries with better social networks and much
lower crime have more competent sociologists; after all, sociologists do
collaborate across national boundaries.

I think the difference is in the public. Somehow America has grown a
huge crop of simplistic thinkers, who say "Screw the data, _I_ know
what's right!" and who cannot be convinced to critically examine their
own views.

I suppose that's a result of our early implementation of democracy - the
idea that there should be no elite, that any educated landowner's vote
counts as much as the next. And that any educated man's idea was worth
listening to.

Eventually that philosophy broadened. I have no problem broadening it to
non-landowners and even <gasp!> women. But I think it's a shame that
many think "The ignorant idea that just popped into my mind is just as
good as your education, training, research and data."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:53:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/13/2023 9:05 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 13.02.2023 um 11:08 schrieb Catrike Rider:
>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 19:56:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what percentage incarceration you think would work, since
>>>> we're already setting records. And I don't know how you'd imprison even
>>>> more than we do without new, higher taxes.
>>>
>>> We can either put the criminals in prison, or let them prey on the
>>> citizens.  The latter requires that the citizens have means to protect
>>> themselves and their property.
>>
>> Other coutries prefer to act a lot earlier: provide appropriate social
>> infrastructure that poeple don't even start their crime careers.
>> Preventative measures are orders of magnitude cheaper than corrective
>> measures.
>
>I sometimes wonder about the genesis of the different national
>attitudes. I doubt that countries with better social networks and much
>lower crime have more competent sociologists; after all, sociologists do
>collaborate across national boundaries.
>
>I think the difference is in the public. Somehow America has grown a
>huge crop of simplistic thinkers, who say "Screw the data, _I_ know
>what's right!" and who cannot be convinced to critically examine their
>own views.

<LOL> Krygowski has identified himself.

>I suppose that's a result of our early implementation of democracy - the
>idea that there should be no elite, that any educated landowner's vote
>counts as much as the next. And that any educated man's idea was worth
>listening to.
>
>Eventually that philosophy broadened. I have no problem broadening it to
>non-landowners and even <gasp!> women. But I think it's a shame that
>many think "The ignorant idea that just popped into my mind is just as
>good as your education, training, research and data."

Krygowski's education, training, research and data has left him with
ignorant ideas popping into his mind.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 09:20:57 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:21:07 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/13/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >
>> > Rational discussion looks at the broad picture, using things
>> > like <gasp!> data. So instead of comparing anecdotes, let's
>> > compare data - for example, data on otherwise comparable
>> > nations.
>> >
>> Intellectually interesting perhaps but I don't live in a
>> different nation. I have to make accommodations, and
>> personal judgements, within US culture.
>
>You're allowed to make your personal judgment according to your own
>standards, so long as you're not putting others at risk.

The question of whether what I do puts others at risk is not for you
to detirmine, Krygowski, and it seems as though the voters have made
their decision.

>But if we're going
>to move the needle on public safety or other societal issues, we need
>more than one man's opinion.

Exactly....

>"Personal judgment" leads to insanity like people carrying semi-automatic weapons
>in public places with many rounds in a magazine and a round in the chamber, safety off,
>just in case someone may irritate them.

<eyeroll>

>I think this is the only industrialized country where that is not broadly considered insane;
>and our gun death rate that says those other countries are right.

.....there is so many things other countries are wrong about.

[AMuzi]

Good luck with that.

https://nypost.com/2021/11/16/eric-adams-cracks-up-late-show-audience-gifts-colbert-weed/

[AMuzi]

The problem looks simple at the outset but a couple of
trillion dollars and 60 years later we have made no progress
but have learned something at least. A man who lives on
county rent with government food, health care, telephone and
regular cash stipends, but no work, is not fully a citizen -
he's a pet. And behaves accordingly.

[AMuzi]

Even the most restricted definitions of 'defensive use' in
your links vastly outnumber fatal incidents with light
sporting rifles. But hey you've made your own personal
evaluation about those, no data necessary.

[Catrike Rider]

+1

[Frank Krygowski]

:-) Hey! There's one of those guys now!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:54:32 -0500, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/13/2023 1:16 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:53:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> I think it's a shame that
>>> many think "The ignorant idea that just popped into my mind is just as
>>> good as your education, training, research and data."
>>
>> Krygowski's education, training, research and data has left him with
>> ignorant ideas popping into his mind.
>
>:-) Hey! There's one of those guys now!
>

I wonder how Krygowski's education affected his narcissism. Did it
make it worse, or was he even more of a narcissist as a high schooler?

***********************************************************

Teachers who are narcissists rely on lecture and instructionism as
their pedagogy. This seems to follow from their elevated sense of
self-importance, which contributes to their perception of themselves
as the expert with the correct version of the curriculum.

An interesting corollary appears to be the narcissistic teacher’s
reliance on a single explanation. When a student asks for
clarification, the narcissistic teacher will respond with the same
explanation that has been given previously. This is grounded in the
assumption that his or her understanding is complete and clear, and
that the difficulty in learning must be with the students’ attention
or effort or capacity to learn. Teachers with minimal narcissistic
tendencies will recognize that different individuals may need
different explanations and will quickly different approaches and see
that as posing no threat to their abilities.Teachers who are
narcissists rely on lecture and instructionism as their pedagogy. This
seems to follow from their elevated sense of self-importance, which
contributes to their perception of themselves as the expert with the
correct version of the curriculum.


https://hackscience.education/2016/08/05/observation-of-narcissist-educators/

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 17:26:44 +0100, Rolf Mantel

None of which is done by government programs...

>>> Most modern countries have been able to replace this 'Clan' structure by
>>> a family-independent web of trust.
>>> In the worst case (breakdown of society), this system is called
>>> 'Organized crime rackets' (aka 'Mafia') while in advanced civilisations,
>>> government provides for the necessary social infrastructure.
>>
>> Describe a government provided, family-independent web of trust.
>
>Two building blocks on the top of my mind are:
>- Government support ensures nobody has to starve, live on the street or
>be unable to pay his medical bills

I don't believe building dependency is a positive thing, but I'd
support a program where basic support is provided in return for
minimal work. It would have to be outside the rules of ridiculous
minimum wage laws, which have contributed to so many job losses.

>- Care workers detect early where there are problems with schooling,
>enabling/motivating most kids to leave high school with being able to
>read, write, learn

Such programs usually fail. Crime pays better than education.

[Tom Kunich]

He has already passed judgement on electric cars after 250 miles driving one.

[Tom Kunich]

But unfortunately, these people have been so inculcated with the propaganda of socialism they believe that they are more free than you or I and they believe that they have the God given right to steal my money because I worked for it and they didn't. Our government is using our money to support a substantially large percentage of the criminal element of the illegals and everyone should be surprised that abandoning law and order creates crime and disorder?

(17) MASS PSYCHOSIS - How an Entire Population Becomes MENTALLY ILL - YouTube

This is what has happened to the stupid 5. They believe everything that the destructors tell them.

[Catrike Rider]

Oh, I'm sure he passed judgement long ago, just as soon as the greeny
mob told him it was good.

[Frank Krygowski]

My data is the number of high body count murders using those AR military
style guns. I compare that data with the list of societal advantages of
their public ownership.

Since the latter number is zero, the comparison of advantages vs.
disadvantages is easy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Yet it seems that so many developed countries do better at this problem
than we do. The same is true of other problems: health care, gun
violence, etc.

Americans seem to cherish the idea that "Nothing can solve this
problem!" while many other nations say "We don't have that problem."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/13/2023 2:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> [Krygowski] has already passed judgement on electric cars after 250 miles driving one.

:-) That's our Tom! Never missing an opportunity to publish a mistake!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

...and of course, Krygowski's opinions on <LOL> "societal advantages"
is the final word.

[AMuzi]

Different rules, different culture, different school shootings.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/10/01/european-courts-school-shooting-ruling-and-its-wider-implications

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/24/europe/germany-shooting-heidelberg-intl/index.html

Fewer people, drastically fewer firearms, different experience.

Different but not zero.

p.s. this horse is dead but I'll beat it regardless.
https://nypost.com/2023/02/12/two-19-year-olds-arrested-for-louisiana-mass-shooting-that-wounded-12/

No rifles.

[AMuzi]

On 2/13/2023 3:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/13/2023 1:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/13/2023 10:26 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>
>>> Two building blocks on the top of my mind are:
>>> - Government support ensures nobody has to starve, live on
>>> the street or be unable to pay his medical bills
>>> - Care workers detect early where there are problems with
>>> schooling, enabling/motivating most kids to leave high
>>> school with being able to read, write, learn
>>>
>>> As I don't belong to the classes who need on such a social
>>> network I don't know what else there needs to be.
>>>
>>> Rolf
>>
>> The problem looks simple at the outset but a couple of
>> trillion dollars and 60 years later we have made no

>> progress but have learned something at least. A man who

>> lives on county rent with government food, health care,
>> telephone and regular cash stipends, but no work, is not
>> fully a citizen - he's a pet. And behaves accordingly.
>
> Yet it seems that so many developed countries do better at
> this problem than we do. The same is true of other problems:
> health care, gun violence, etc.
>
> Americans seem to cherish the idea that "Nothing can solve
> this problem!" while many other nations say "We don't have
> that problem."
>

ohferchrissake.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/22/nothings-changed-10-years-after-french-riots-banlieues-remain-in-crisis

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/06/uk-the-horrific-reality-of-an-islamic-no-go-zone

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50339977

https://www.dw.com/en/islamist-terrorism-germany/a-55499856

None of those countries are any less indulgent than we.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:21:02 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/13/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> On 2/12/2023 9:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2023 7:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/12/2023 8:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Opinions are like navels, everone has one.
>>>>
>>>> Most people have opinions. But rational discussion among
>>>> rational people often results in consensus.
>>>>
>>>> Granted, with guns, that sort of discussion is rare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You mentioned autos, implying they are useful and desirable.
>>>
>>> Greta Thunberg doesn't think you should have one.
>>
>> Fine. Let's have a rational discussion about that.
>>> People disagree about advantages and disadvantages of
>>> everything. I linked to this woman before, who saved lives
>>> with her newly purchased firearm:
>>>
>>> https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/09/26/california-woman-shoots-intruder-day-after-getting-her-gun-n62686
>>>
>>>
>>> She's alive, as is her husband. She views that positively.
>>
>> As noted before, any one anecdote can be countered by
>> another. Trading anecdotes doesn't really advance knowledge.
>>

>> Rational discussion looks at the broad picture, using things
>> like <gasp!> data. So instead of comparing anecdotes, let's
>> compare data - for example, data on otherwise comparable
>> nations.
>>
>
>Intellectually interesting perhaps but I don't live in a
>different nation. I have to make accommodations, and
>personal judgements, within US culture.
>

>p.s. data:
>https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/oct/5/guns-used-more-for-self-defense-than-crimes/

An interesting post. The 480,000 criminal use of guns mentioned seems
rather terrifying.... Oooooh so many.... but the reality is that it is
about 1/10th of one percent of the U.S. population.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 12:34:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Way back when, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, or his advisors,
developed two schemes, the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) and the
Works Progress Administration (WPA) both of which paid out of work
people to do work on government or state projects. The CCC employed
about 2.5 million people, and the WPA employed another 8 million from
the years 1935-1943.

Rather then pay someone not to work (unemployment) why not implement
such programs today?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

And I'm perfectly sure that you telling him that 2 1/2 many times as many people were stabbed to death as shot with a rifle made not the slightest impact on him. When you're stupid you can't get smart.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm sure that snake in the grass Krygowski will label that double barrel shotgun as a "military style weapon".

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 15:31:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

I don't think Krygowski is stupid. It's just that he driven by his
fears

https://awarenessact.com/the-10-things-narcissists-actually-fear/

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:16:29 -0500, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:02:25 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 2/12/2023 9:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2023 7:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/12/2023 8:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Opinions are like navels, everone has one.
>>>>
>>>> Most people have opinions. But rational discussion among
>>>> rational people often results in consensus.
>>>>
>>>> Granted, with guns, that sort of discussion is rare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You mentioned autos, implying they are useful and desirable.
>>>
>>> Greta Thunberg doesn't think you should have one.
>>
>>Fine. Let's have a rational discussion about that.
>>> People disagree about advantages and disadvantages of everything. I
>>> linked to this woman before, who saved lives with her newly purchased
>>> firearm:
>>>
>>> https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/09/26/california-woman-shoots-intruder-day-after-getting-her-gun-n62686
>>>
>>> She's alive, as is her husband. She views that positively.
>>
>>As noted before, any one anecdote can be countered by another. Trading
>>anecdotes doesn't really advance knowledge.
>>

>>Rational discussion looks at the broad picture, using things like
>><gasp!> data. So instead of comparing anecdotes, let's compare data -
>>for example, data on otherwise comparable nations.
>

>Data indicates that the majority of gun crimes are black on black
>crime in Democrat run cities.

As of 2019, St. Louis, Missouri had the highest murder rate
(64.28/100,000) in the U.S. And Missouri is a "Red" state, isn't it
:-?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 07:00:49 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

St Louis is a very blue city.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:27:12 -0500, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:08:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 2/12/2023 9:58 PM, John B. wrote:

>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:39:15 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/12/2023 8:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:

>>>>> On 2/12/2023 7:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/12/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But is it "deaths" or is it "gun deaths"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Highway "accidents" killed some 42,915 in 2021 and from
>>>>>>> what I read
>>>>>>> more them 90% of these "accidents" were caused by unsafe
>>>>>>> acts of the
>>>>>>> operators.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (firearm homicides were something like 20,000 in 2921)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shall I list (again) the advantages of motor vehicle
>>>>>> transportation that counterbalance the admittedly
>>>>>> regrettable motor vehicle deaths?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shall I again ask you to list the advantages of
>>>>>> near-unlimited (and non-hunting) gun ownership that
>>>>>> counterbalance the gun deaths? I've made similar requests
>>>>>> frequently. You've been able to list none.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Advantages and disadvantages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Advantages and disadvantages are heavily slanted personal opinion. They
>>>>> are not at all objective.

>>>>>
>>>>> Opinions are like navels, everone has one.
>>>>
>>>> Most people have opinions. But rational discussion among rational people
>>>> often results in consensus.
>>>>
>>>> Granted, with guns, that sort of discussion is rare.
>>>

>>> Yes, you are correct. But then you are the guy hollering and screaming
>>> about the horrifying AR type of firearms which were used in some 3% of
>>> all firearm homicides while "handguns" were used in 72%.
>>>
>>> In numbers hand and feet were used in more then twice as many
>>> homicides as were all rifles. :-)
>>>
>>> Rational?
>>
>>I've concluded that rationality in gun policy, if it ever arrives, will
>>come in small steps. And I think a reasonable first step is to greatly
>>restrict a style of gun that has no significant practical advantages for
>>private citizens, yet is regularly used to murder rooms full of innocents.
>
><CHUCKLE> Many thousands, perhaps millions of people disagree with
>Krygowski's interpretation of "significant practical advantages."
>
>>It's a question of advantages vs. disadvantages which you refuse to
>>address.
>
>As if Krygowski's definitions of advantages and disadvantages should
>be used to identify what other people are allowed to posess.
>
>Well. he seems to think so, anyway.
>
>> The U.S. government apparently sees no practical advantages to
>>letting anyone, willy-nilly, own a machine gun. Or an anti-tank weapon.
>>Or lots of other military armament. That same logic should apply to ARs.

The above statement serves to illustrate Frank's vast (lack of)
knowledge about firearms. The Dreaded AR is a semi automatic rifle and
U.S. made semi auto rifles date back to the Winchester Model 1903, so
after some 120 years of being a legal firearm Frankie the K feels that
they should be banned.

Note: Semi auto pistols date to the Salvator-Dormus pistol is the
earliest-patented semi-automatic pistol. It was patented on 11 July
1891.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

That is another one of those bullshit left wing poolitical redefinitions.

The Mayo0 Clinic has this to say:

"Causes
It's not known what causes narcissistic personality disorder. The cause is likely complex. Narcissistic personality disorder may be linked to:

Environment — parent-child relationships with either too much adoration or too much criticism that don't match the child's actual experiences and achievements.
Genetics — inherited characteristics, such as certain personality traits.
Neurobiology — the connection between the brain and behavior and thinking.
Risk factors
Although the cause of narcissistic personality disorder isn't known, some researchers think that overprotective or neglectful parenting may have an impact on children who are born with a tendency to develop the disorder. Genetics and other factors also may play a role in the development of narcissistic personality disorder.

Complications
Complications of narcissistic personality disorder, and other conditions that can occur along with it include:

Relationship difficulties
Problems at work or school
Depression and anxiety
Other personality disorders
An eating disorder called anorexia
Physical health problems
Drug or alcohol misuse
Suicidal thoughts or behavior
Prevention
Because the cause of narcissistic personality disorder is unknown, there's no known way to prevent the condition. But it may help to:

Get treatment as soon as possible for childhood mental health problems.
Participate in family therapy to learn healthy ways to communicate or to cope with conflicts or emotional distress.
Attend parenting classes and seek guidance from a therapist or social worker if needed."

As you can see, also Krygowski is clearly a narcissist, it is not a psychological problem but a personal one. As for Liebermann? He clearly has a psychological problem as is shown by his inability to get and hold a job. What about Flunky? I don't think that he has any serious problems other than being insulted too easily. John may even have been a good person to work with until he started believing his own bullshit. That probably got him fired and he just got worse. Scharf is nothing more that a giant zero. So he tried to become a politician but he wasn't even smart enough for that.

The actual medical problem is Joe Biden. In his State of the Union Speach he told at least a dozen giant whoppers. In front of 180 million people that know better!

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:27:28 -0500, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 09:20:57 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:21:07 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/13/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> >

>>> > Rational discussion looks at the broad picture, using things
>>> > like <gasp!> data. So instead of comparing anecdotes, let's
>>> > compare data - for example, data on otherwise comparable
>>> > nations.
>>> >

>>> Intellectually interesting perhaps but I don't live in a
>>> different nation. I have to make accommodations, and
>>> personal judgements, within US culture.
>>
>>You're allowed to make your personal judgment according to your own
>>standards, so long as you're not putting others at risk.
>

>The question of whether what I do puts others at risk is not for you
>to detirmine, Krygowski, and it seems as though the voters have made
>their decision.

>
>>But if we're going
>>to move the needle on public safety or other societal issues, we need
>>more than one man's opinion.
>

>Exactly....

>
>>"Personal judgment" leads to insanity like people carrying semi-automatic weapons
>>in public places with many rounds in a magazine and a round in the chamber, safety off,
>>just in case someone may irritate them.
>

><eyeroll>

>
>>I think this is the only industrialized country where that is not broadly considered insane;
>>and our gun death rate that says those other countries are right.
>

>.....there is so many things other countries are wrong about.

>
>>> p.s. data:
>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/oct/5/guns-used-more-for-self-defense-than-crimes/
>>
>>Yes, we've been over that.
>>
>>https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/
>>
>>https://www.thetrace.org/2022/06/defensive-gun-use-data-good-guys-with-guns/
>>
>>etc.
>>
>>How many defensive gun uses per year in Canada? And in other countries, where guns aren't falling out of
>>dresser drawers every day? By now we should have moved beyond an 1890s Tombstone Arizona philosophy.
>>
>>- Frank Krygowski

As I have mentioned, several times, the solution to Frank's problem is
simple, just delete the 2nd amendment to the U.S. constitution :-)

I would go even further and say if Frank is not a member of an
organization dedicated to doing just that then he obviously is just a
demented old man running up and down the street shouting No! No! No!

Or perhaps he forgets that he lives in a Democracy (well sort of ) and
in a democracy the majority count, so taking the Dreaded AR as an
example it is Frankie against some 20 million AR owners :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Saying Red and Blue states doesn't hold a lot of weight. Cities tend to be Blue where politicians can promise them anything and the people aren't bright enough to remember next election that he didn't deliver the first time he promised them.

For instance - the overwhelming majority of California LAND AREA is bright RED. But the narrow coastal corridor has the population that is too stupid to actually understand the issues.

When I lived in Washington state in the Air Force I assumed that the state was Republican because everyone out on the eastern side of the Cascade Mountains was VERY conservative down to the town drunk. So what in the hell happened to Seattle-Tacoma? What in God's name happened to Portland? It are those high population areas that control state politics.

I don't think you were here at the time but Jay who was a lawyer that used to commute to his work on a bicycle was one of those saying that that the BLM riots in Portland (most of those blacks did not even LIVE in OREGON) was "mostly peaceful as they burned down police stations killed cops and looted the entire downtown area.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 15:05:59 +0100, Rolf Mantel

<ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 13.02.2023 um 11:08 schrieb Catrike Rider:

>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 19:56:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/12/2023 1:43 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 2/12/2023 10:06 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 2/12/2023 9:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/12/2023 6:02 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anybody might be carrying a concealed weapon. That's the
>>>>>>> beauty of
>>>>>>> concealment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why American gun deaths are so low, especially
>>>>> compared to other similarly developed countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Many posit that the inability or unwillingness of society to remove
>>>> criminals from the general population has contributed to a growing problem.
>>>>
>>>> not only repeat murderers:
>>>>
>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/02/54-a-kia-boy-killed-a-chicago-man-while-having-felony-cases-pending-prosecutors-say.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> but criminality of all sorts:
>>>>
>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/02/mail-thief-burglarized-lakeview-apartment-building-mail-room-14-times-in-9-weeks-prosecutors-say.html
>>>
>>> Most similarly prosperous countries have much lower incarceration rates
>>> compared to the U.S. They also have lower rates of general crime and gun
>>> crime.
>>>

>>> I don't know what percentage incarceration you think would work, since
>>> we're already setting records. And I don't know how you'd imprison even
>>> more than we do without new, higher taxes.
>>
>> We can either put the criminals in prison, or let them prey on the
>> citizens. The latter requires that the citizens have means to protect
>> themselves and their property.
>
>Other coutries prefer to act a lot earlier: provide appropriate social
>infrastructure that poeple don't even start their crime careers.
>Preventative measures are orders of magnitude cheaper than corrective
>measures.
>

>Rolf

And yet Germany has the highest rate of fraud in the world, followed
by The U.K., New Zealand, Sweden and Austria
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Frauds-per-1000
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

There are plenty of anomalies in any sociological data.

Regarding the recent death by police beating in Memphis, I
heard a comment on radio about 'another example of white
supremacy'. All the cops were black, their top police
positions are black, as is the mayor and most in city upper
management. But hey Tennessee is a 'red' State, right?

Regarding homicide, domestic murders (which are a big chunk
of homicide) are almost always one-offs and those convicted
rarely repeat and are not commonly career criminals.

OTOH, criminologist began quantifying in the late 1980s the
gargantuan toll of career criminals. Burglars score a dozen
or more jobs per month, professional shoplifters a dozen or
more per day, car thieves and muggers several per day and so
on. Removing a relatively small number of criminals from a
neighborhood brings excellent result to the citizens generally.

[AMuzi]

East St Louis IL is no prize either.

[Frank Krygowski]

You're so much better at anecdotes, instead of data!

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 6:25:40 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> Way back when, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, or his advisors,
> developed two schemes, the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) and the
> Works Progress Administration (WPA) both of which paid out of work
> people to do work on government or state projects. The CCC employed
> about 2.5 million people, and the WPA employed another 8 million from
> the years 1935-1943.
>
> Rather then pay someone not to work (unemployment) why not implement
> such programs today?

Today we walked by a building built by the WPA. There are other structures
in our village built that way. And our large area metropark has quite a few
such structures, all quite beautiful. My grandfather worked on one of them.

But other jurisdictions in the area rejected such projects. Because "socialism."

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Nope. You're misprepresenting what I've said.

FWIW, I don't have a fundamental objection to a semi-automatic rifle. I do
say that there's no practical reason for the capability of firing more than,
say, ten rounds within a minute. That limit can be easily implemented by
a rifle with a rather small tubular magazine, like those on some .22s.

An AR is much, much different. If it were not, the U.S. military would not have
solicited the AR design. But the AR _was_ designed for combat use, even
though gun fetishists persistently deny that. It has features that are specifically
chosen for their use in situations like running firefights.

It's used every couple years to blast away a room full of innocent people.
Its design features are great for such use. But it has no other benefits
for legitimate civilian use. The societal disadvantages far outweigh
the societal advantages, which you've pretty well proven to be zero.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 7:50:38 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>
> OTOH, criminologist began quantifying in the late 1980s the
> gargantuan toll of career criminals. Burglars score a dozen
> or more jobs per month, professional shoplifters a dozen or
> more per day, car thieves and muggers several per day and so
> on. Removing a relatively small number of criminals from a
> neighborhood brings excellent result to the citizens generally.

FWIW, I agree with that.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I actually was once introduced to a professional car thief, in Los
Angeles, and after being assured by a mutual friend that I was a "Good
Guy" he was quite frank abut his career. He specialized in Chevy
Corvettes and usually "scored" three a day on a normal work day.

I was, of course, appalled and asked him "but if you steal cars you
might go to jail" and he replied that "no, normally you would have to
be arrested at least three times before you did any jail time".

I think he was probably telling the truth as I did notice that there
were certain aspects of the "car trade" that he was very reticent
about. I asked him, "with 3 cars a day, what do you do with them", and
he said something like. Oh, people buy them", and didn't add any
detail, which would make sense if the "trade" was organized, which I
assume it probably was.

Granted it was a single meeting but my impression is that "criminals"
are far more familiar with the in's and out's of the legal system than
any "good guy".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:25:33 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Further to the above, I read here complaints about broken glass in the
road, dirty roads, etc. Just think, if you had a "work if you want
money" scheme and you could have clean streets like we do here. See
https://tinyurl.com/mt2sprmp
and even moving pictures :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv-BGGlMkN0

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 17:33:09 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 7:12:20 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:08:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> ><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> The U.S. government apparently sees no practical advantages to
>> >>letting anyone, willy-nilly, own a machine gun. Or an anti-tank weapon.
>> >>Or lots of other military armament. That same logic should apply to ARs.
>>
>> The above statement serves to illustrate Frank's vast (lack of)
>> knowledge about firearms. The Dreaded AR is a semi automatic rifle and
>> U.S. made semi auto rifles date back to the Winchester Model 1903, so
>> after some 120 years of being a legal firearm Frankie the K feels that
>> they should be banned.
>
>Nope. You're misprepresenting what I've said.
>
>FWIW, I don't have a fundamental objection to a semi-automatic rifle. I do
>say that there's no practical reason for the capability of firing more than,
>say, ten rounds within a minute. That limit can be easily implemented by
>a rifle with a rather small tubular magazine, like those on some .22s.
>
>An AR is much, much different. If it were not, the U.S. military would not have
>solicited the AR design. But the AR _was_ designed for combat use, even
>though gun fetishists persistently deny that. It has features that are specifically
>chosen for their use in situations like running firefights.

Krygowski has been asked to define what are these features that
renders AR type guns so much more evil than other rifles. He's never
answered that, and until he does, his entire argument is null and
void.

>It's used every couple years to blast away a room full of innocent people.
>Its design features are great for such use. But it has no other benefits
>for legitimate civilian use. The societal disadvantages far outweigh
>the societal advantages, which you've pretty well proven to be zero.

Krygowski insists that his subjective evaluation of societal
advantages and disadvantages is all that matters.

>- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Krygowski is better at expressing his unsupported opinions (see above)
instead of data.

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 13.02.2023 um 17:53 schrieb Frank Krygowski:

> On 2/13/2023 9:05 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 13.02.2023 um 11:08 schrieb Catrike Rider:

>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 19:56:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what percentage incarceration you think would work, since
>>>> we're already setting records. And I don't know how you'd imprison even
>>>> more than we do without new, higher taxes.
>>>
>>> We can either put the criminals in prison, or let them prey on the
>>> citizens.  The latter requires that the citizens have means to protect
>>> themselves and their property.
>>
>> Other coutries prefer to act a lot earlier: provide appropriate social
>> infrastructure that poeple don't even start their crime careers.
>> Preventative measures are orders of magnitude cheaper than corrective
>> measures.
>

> I sometimes wonder about the genesis of the different national
> attitudes.

There seem to be a large number of historic reasons, both positive and
negative.

- Surviving the harsh weather of scandinavia required a lot more social
co-operation from your "neighbors" 20 miles away than elsewhere

- Slavery destroyed any feeling that (black) people are able to look
after themselves or their families both in West Africa where people were
killed/ hunted randomly and in the USA where people were sold and
eventually released

- Colonialism brought lots of coloured people into France and into
England in a way where they were unable to become part of 'society'(it
is unclear to my why the Dutch seem so suffer less from this impact than
the French and the English, or are Dutch problems only reported less due
to the smaller country size?)

- Early settlement of the USA via religious communities has a large
focus of support via the individual church rather than the government
(e.g. Amish in Ohio feel closer to Amish in Pennsylvania than to other
people in Ohio)

- Emigration from Europe to the USA selected mostly those people valuing
individual opportunity over social safety nets

Rolf

[Rolf Mantel]

> And yet Germany has the highest rate of fraud in the world, followed
> by The U.K., New Zealand, Sweden and Austria
> https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Frauds-per-1000

| Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of
| law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual
| prevalence.

Germany has the highest rate of reported fraud, which depends on both
prevalence of fraud and willingness to report fraud to the police.

Other than violent crime where you have hospital records, the proportion
of unreported fraud is very difficult to guess.

Rolf

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:54:35 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/13/2023 1:16 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:

> > On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:53:59 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > I think it's a shame that
> >> many think "The ignorant idea that just popped into my mind is just as
> >> good as your education, training, research and data."
> >
> > Krygowski's education, training, research and data has left him with
> > ignorant ideas popping into his mind.

> :-) Hey! There's one of those guys now!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Exactly