What are Kleins made of?
Steven W. Boyce
dealer told me 6000 series. Another said 7000 series. The catalog
says "gradiant". A buyers guide says something like "Gradiant 9320"
or some bizarre number. I'm seriously considering an Attitude, but
I'd like to know more. I know Klein was a pioneer of fat aluminum,
but have other builders surpassed them and are other materials better,
like Easton Program or Varilite? Info would be appreciated, as would
comments from owners of Attitudes.
--
Steven W. Boyce
U of I Law '95
J. Lee
In a previous article, boyc...@goshawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (Steven W. Boyce) says:
>I know Klein was a pioneer of fat aluminum,
>but have other builders surpassed them and are other materials better,
>like Easton Program or Varilite?
Many people buy Kleins because they are well-constructed,
well-finished, and well-designed-- the fact that they are
made from aluminium tubing is almost incidental.
Newton E Mack
: Aluminum, of course. My question is, what kind of aluminum? One
Kleins and Cannondales are constructed w/ 6061 T6 aluminum (last I
heard, could have changed the alloy in the last couple years). The T6
designation means that after they weld it together, they heat the
whole bike up to about 850-1000 deg (depends on the process), quench
it suddenly, and then age it for several hours at somewhere around
350 degrees (this is from memory, if you want to be exact check out
a ASME metals book at the library.) This causes the alloying agents
in the 6061 to be first trapped in the alloy (via the heat/quench) and
then precipitate out slightly (the 350 degree 'aging' process). The
whole purpose of this is to regain the strength lost in the welding
process (the yield stress drops from like 36ksi to like 21ksi, again
numbers are from memory). Klein & Cannondale probably used this
alloy because it is _the_ aerospace alloy, and is available in more
variations (tubes, plates, etc.) than most others. The furnaces to
generate this kind of heat are pretty expensive, and the heat warpage
problems are fairly ferocious.
Easton's Varilite set is 7075, which is a stronger alloy (_not_ stiffer,
aluminum alloys have identical stiffness), and, more importantly, doesn't
need the elaborate heat/quench process that 6061 needs to regain
strength from welding. With 7075, you just heat the frame to about 400
degrees for a couple of hours, and then to 200-250 for another 2. These
are temperatures that can be achieved with a commercial oven, and
bike frames being baked in pizza ovens is not an unheard of tactic.
This is a lot easier for the independant builder, which is why you'll
see all the smaller aluminum makers using the Easton sets--no furnace
costs.
7075 is stronger, but I don't have its fatigue behaviour compared to
6061. Anyone care to elaborate?
Eliot
Keolani Taitano
at Wild Thang. He is very up on Kleines and sells alot of them.
Rides one himsel.
Frederick Y Huang
I sent email to the above address with a couple of trivial questions about
my Fervor frame, and was surprised to hear back from Gary Klein himself. He
was very nice about answering my questions, but did request that I refer
future questions to the "Klein Factory Rep section", so that he only needed
to address each topic once. Does anybody know of any alternate email
addresses for Klein?
Fred
Anders Jacob Truelsen
In article <3hgig8$i...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> el...@mit.edu (Newton E Mack) writes:
[snip-snip]
NEM> costs.
NEM> 7075 is stronger, but I don't have its fatigue behaviour compared to
NEM> 6061. Anyone care to elaborate?
Without any permission I'll quote from a posting by Harry Phinney
(ha...@cv.hp.com) at Tue, 27 Jul 1993:
Here's a bit of information:
Alloy and | Ultimate | |
treatment or | Tensile | Yield |
condition | Strength | Strength | %Elongation
----------------+---------------+---------------+-------------
6061-T6 | 45,000 psi | 40,000 psi | 12
----------------+---------------+---------------+-------------
6061 As Welded | 27,000 psi | 18,000 psi | 8
----------------+---------------+---------------+-------------
----------------+---------------+---------------+-------------
7005-T6 | 54,000 psi | 46,000 psi | 12
----------------+---------------+---------------+-------------
70005 As Welded | 46,000 psi | 30,000 psi | 10
Well there you are :)
/anders
--
_0
,\ \
(*)/ ' Anders Truelsen email : leg...@daimi.aau.dk
/%%\(*) CS. Dept. http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~legolas
/%%%#%%\ University of Aarhus phone : +45 8942 3358
/%#%%%%%%#%\ 8000 Aarhus fax : +45 8942 3255
/%###% %%##%#%%\__ DENMARK Priv. : +45 8618 8915
/%%%## %%%% %####%% (these are my opinions only...)
(design by M.Harvey <mar...@wmin.ac.uk>)
John Olsen
>
>Steven W. Boyce (boyc...@goshawk.csrv.uidaho.edu) wrote:
>: Aluminum, of course. My question is, what kind of aluminum? One
>: dealer told me 6000 series. Another said 7000 series.
>
>heard, could have changed the alloy in the last couple years).
True, but they also use some of their own alloy, one that they developed,
according to Darrel Voss, head of developments there.
>
>Easton's Varilite set is 7075, which is a stronger alloy (_not_ stiffer,
>aluminum alloys have identical stiffness), and, more importantly, doesn't
>need the elaborate heat/quench process that 6061 needs to regain
>strength from welding.
>
>Eliot
>
>
Um, 7075 isn't weldable, Eliot. Easton tubing is more like 7005, isn't
it? 7xxx aluminum has zinc as a major alloying element, which makes the
alloys stronger, less workable, less (or not at all) weldable, and denser,
so the strength to weight ratio isn't much better than 6061 T6.
About Kleins: They are very light aluminum bikes, and have never had a
recall. That is pretty impressive. As far as I know, they don't crack,
you don't have to inspect your downtube welds before each ride, and they
are very carefully done. In short, if you want a light aluminum bike,
you probably can't do better. Of course, the paint still falls off.
Olsen
ST10...@brownvm.brown.edu
>>>: dealer told me 6000 series. Another said 7000 series.
>>>
>>>Kleins and Cannondales are constructed w/ 6061 T6 aluminum (last I
>>>heard, could have changed the alloy in the last couple years).
>
>
>>True, but they also use some of their own alloy, one that they developed,
>>according to Darrel Voss, head of developments there.
>
>
>>>
>>>Easton's Varilite set is 7075, which is a stronger alloy (_not_ stiffer,
>>>aluminum alloys have identical stiffness), and, more importantly, doesn't
>>>need the elaborate heat/quench process that 6061 needs to regain
>>>strength from welding.
>>>
>>>Eliot
>>>
>>>
>
>
>>Um, 7075 isn't weldable, Eliot. Easton tubing is more like 7005, isn't
>>it? 7xxx aluminum has zinc as a major alloying element, which makes the
>>alloys stronger, less workable, less (or not at all) weldable, and denser,
>>so the strength to weight ratio isn't much better than 6061 T6.
>
>>About Kleins: They are very light aluminum bikes, and have never had a
>>recall. That is pretty impressive. As far as I know, they don't crack,
>>you don't have to inspect your downtube welds before each ride, and they
>>are very carefully done. In short, if you want a light aluminum bike,
>>you probably can't do better. Of course, the paint still falls off.
Now, I know that this is heresay, but I have read more than a few posts on
one of these newsgroups of a Klein snapping at the headtube/downtube
joint during a race.
-mike
Gary Helfrich
: True, but they also use some of their own alloy, one that they developed,
: according to Darrel Voss, head of developments there.
Olsen: Do you really believe this? You, of all people shold know what
resources this would take. It might be true, but it is more likely that
it is marketing hype. I'd be very interested in finding out about an
aluminum mill that will deal in custom alloys in quantities less than 10
metric tons. Also it would be interesting to find an extrusion house
that would pop out the dozens of sizes for a reasonable tooling cost.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
John Olsen
Helfrich: No, not completely! DV told me this on a long airplane flight
from Detroit recently, and he COULD BE KIDDING ME. You have several good
points, as usual. I have now regained my skepticism. Thank you.
Olsen
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SDarnley
philip t ganderton
>Aren't Kleins made of aluminum? Like Cannondales?
Surely this thread is a joke? Everyone knows that Clowns (oops,
Kleins) are a composite of rigidium, breakalite, and whoknowsium: a very
desirable combination worth paying megabucks for, especially after you've
just had a lobotomy and seek a walletectomy!
and yes, they're *just* like Slaminsnails (oops, Canondales)
8-) (big one)
Gandini
Jesse
Ever try scraping it all off? There's nothing underneath all those
hideous colors.
Knut Olaf Knutsen
Don't do that, you'll let the helium escape.
Kolaf