Cateye Padrone, low battery warning?

[Joerg]

Folks,

Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
"mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?

The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.

http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_dl/2/957/CC-PA100W_QS-m_ENG_v1.pdf

I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
speedometer froze up on me :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
>"mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
>always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
>speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?

Perhaps you could remove the batteries and measure the terminal
voltage with a voltmeter? CR2032 battery. 3.1v to 3.2v when new. I
replace them in computahs when under 2.9v.

>The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.

>http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_dl/2/957/CC-PA100W_QS-m_ENG_v1.pdf

15 pages of useless setup info.
Cateye Padrone CC-PA100W
If you look on Page 6, you'll see a picture of the big LCD with all
the icons and indicators marked. In the upper left is a battery icon.
It's much like a cell phone battey indicator where it starts out all
black, and changes in sections to just an outline of the battery when
depleted.

My guess(tm) is that the flashing mph means that the device is waiting
for your input for some kind of setting that involves mph. Perhaps a
wheel diameter calibration setting.

>I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
>in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
>speedometer froze up on me :-)

Carry spare batteries.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[avag...@gmail.com]

pour rum over it

[avag...@gmail.com]

yes, the electronics are hung up.

'My guess(tm) is that the flashing mph means that the device is waiting for your input for some kind of setting'

find the 1/16" indented button. Push down and reboot. Cat's still do this ? mine is 15 years now.

Batts ? My Enduro runs 8 years on a batt. In the Light Box: 2:31. 2:32, 2:33......into the past.

always brings a big smile when I dig past it.

ahhh the Cateye..memories of fine rides outback.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://geotripper.blogspot.com/

[John B.]

On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

A look at a number of Cateye cyclemeters all say that the MPH or KPH
"sign" flashes while measuring the speed. I checked the Velo 7, the
Strada and the Padrone (CCPA 100W) documentation and then checked my
own bike. If it is working normally the "MPH" flashes when the wheel
is spinning. When the wheel stops the "MPH" is steady.

My experience with Cateye is that if the display can be seen then it
works. When the display can't be seen change the battery :-)

This might change with a wireless since if the sender battery dies the
display battery might be still good, but off hand, I can't remember
that happening. I generally use them until the display no longer is
visible and then change both batteries.

--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

John, we're sending a program instruction sheet.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-13 4:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
>> "mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
>> always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
>> speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?
>
> Perhaps you could remove the batteries and measure the terminal
> voltage with a voltmeter? CR2032 battery. 3.1v to 3.2v when new. I
> replace them in computahs when under 2.9v.
>

That is very wasteful, like taking two bites out of each apple and then
throwing it away. Discharge is spec'd down to 2V on CR2032 batteries and
I design my electronics accordingly, hoping that others also do that.

>> The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.
>
>> http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_dl/2/957/CC-PA100W_QS-m_ENG_v1.pdf
>
> 15 pages of useless setup info.
> Cateye Padrone CC-PA100W
> If you look on Page 6, you'll see a picture of the big LCD with all
> the icons and indicators marked. In the upper left is a battery icon.
> It's much like a cell phone battey indicator where it starts out all
> black, and changes in sections to just an outline of the battery when
> depleted.
>

Indeed, that thing that looks like a barber shop symbol could mean
battery. Why can't people just write "lo-bat" like in the good old days?

> My guess(tm) is that the flashing mph means that the device is waiting
> for your input for some kind of setting that involves mph. Perhaps a
> wheel diameter calibration setting.
>

There isn't any input. The Padrone is simple. You start to ride and it
accumulates trip miles, average speed and so on. At the end of the ride
you look at all that and, after patting yourself on the shoulder, hold
down the button a bit longer to erase. That's all there really is.

>> I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
>> in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
>> speedometer froze up on me :-)
>
> Carry spare batteries.
>

Good idea. Although my backpack is already full of spare stuff to the
point where it become difficult to find things in there.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-13 10:50 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
>> "mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
>> always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
>> speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?
>>
>> The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.
>>
>> http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_dl/2/957/CC-PA100W_QS-m_ENG_v1.pdf
>>
>> I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
>> in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
>> speedometer froze up on me :-)
>
> A look at a number of Cateye cyclemeters all say that the MPH or KPH
> "sign" flashes while measuring the speed. I checked the Velo 7, the
> Strada and the Padrone (CCPA 100W) documentation and then checked my
> own bike. If it is working normally the "MPH" flashes when the wheel
> is spinning. When the wheel stops the "MPH" is steady.
>

Mine flashed even at a traffic light. Then again the Cateye Padrone has
some issues with the RF link. RF design seems to become a lost art these
days, would love to get my hands in there. For example, when there is a
lot of air traffic around here the Padrone handlebar unit will not turn
itself off. So I made it a little tin foil hat. No kidding, that makes
it turn off and not eat up the battery.

> My experience with Cateye is that if the display can be seen then it
> works. When the display can't be seen change the battery :-)
>

I guess that's the real battery indicator.

> This might change with a wireless since if the sender battery dies the
> display battery might be still good, but off hand, I can't remember
> that happening. I generally use them until the display no longer is
> visible and then change both batteries.
>

I'll carry spares like Jeff suggested. Hoping it writes the trip miles
into flash memory occasionally so they'd be still there. Often that's
the only way to gauge if I can make it home in time. Trails and even
most long distance bike paths out here have next to nothing in signage.
That is the reason why I equipped both bikes with speedometers.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-13 4:37 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> pour rum over it
>

But I drink pale ale or Guinness on my rides :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

On a more general note: This problem is one of many examples where the
operator interface of electronics could be much better. So many modern
electronic devices - cyclometers, digital watches, microwaves,
televisions, GPS units, etc. - frequently leave their owners asking "How
the heck do I do..." some fairly routine task.

We have several brands of cyclometers in the house. I change the
batteries once per year, which requires re-calibrating. Each one's
recalibration procedure is different, meaning I have to keep all the
instruction manuals on file, along with close-up glasses to read their
tiny fonts.

Oh, and several of those manuals are arcane enough that I've highlighted
text and added notes. The tech guys have made these devices work very
well, but those in charge of communication with humans have a long way
to go.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:11:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2015-06-13 4:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
>>> "mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
>>> always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
>>> speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?
>>
>> Perhaps you could remove the batteries and measure the terminal
>> voltage with a voltmeter? CR2032 battery. 3.1v to 3.2v when new. I
>> replace them in computahs when under 2.9v.

>That is very wasteful, like taking two bites out of each apple and then
>throwing it away. Discharge is spec'd down to 2V on CR2032 batteries and
>I design my electronics accordingly, hoping that others also do that.

Very true. However, there are some reasons that I replace the battery
prematurely. See:
<http://amichalec.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rainbow-pingpong-cr2032-maxell.png>
<http://datasheet.octopart.com/CR3032-Panasonic-datasheet-9712031.pdf>
The inside of the computah tends to be rather warm. Follow the 60C
line to where it starts to plunge. I would call it 2.8v on the graph.
Once the terminal voltage gets anywhere near the knee, it will drop
rather quickly towards zero. I've run some curves on the cheap CR2032
batteries I've been buying on eBay. They suck, usually with a very
rounded knee. I don't know exactly at what voltage the clock/cmos
craps out. I do know that it varies substantially from computah to
computah. I also know that on the way down, some computahs go insane
when the battery voltage is within the "marginal" window.

My main concern is to not get a call a few weeks after I repair a
machine because the clock has stopped or the CMOS settings have
cleared. The batteries cost me about $0.13/ea in quantity, so a
pre-emptive replacement is a worthwhile exercise.
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/400817585563>

Incidentally, I also do pre-emptive replacements of hard disk drives
after about 5 years. Sure, they can last longer, but if they fail
with an out of date or missing backup, it's a PITA to put it back in
working order. With todays SSD prices, I can also offer a 3x to 5x
performance boost, making a pre-emptive replacement even more
attractive.

>>> The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.
>>
>>> http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_dl/2/957/CC-PA100W_QS-m_ENG_v1.pdf
>>
>> 15 pages of useless setup info.
>> Cateye Padrone CC-PA100W
>> If you look on Page 6, you'll see a picture of the big LCD with all
>> the icons and indicators marked. In the upper left is a battery icon.
>> It's much like a cell phone battey indicator where it starts out all
>> black, and changes in sections to just an outline of the battery when
>> depleted.

>Indeed, that thing that looks like a barber shop symbol could mean
>battery. Why can't people just write "lo-bat" like in the good old days?

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but
internationalization is a problem. You cannot expect buyers to all
read and decode English. In terms of population distribution, it's
not anywhere near a universal language. The trend is towards
iconography, with no alphabetic symbology of any kind. Just look at
the user interface in the Chrome and Firefox browsers for a half way
example. Do not be surprised if future products have no words
anywhere on the device or the user interface.

>> My guess(tm) is that the flashing mph means that the device is waiting
>> for your input for some kind of setting that involves mph. Perhaps a
>> wheel diameter calibration setting.

>There isn't any input. The Padrone is simple. You start to ride and it
>accumulates trip miles, average speed and so on. At the end of the ride
>you look at all that and, after patting yourself on the shoulder, hold
>down the button a bit longer to erase. That's all there really is.

Oh... I'm disappointed. I expected exotic features and calculations.
I guess the simplicity is why they don't have a decent manual.

>>> I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
>>> in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
>>> speedometer froze up on me :-)
>>
>> Carry spare batteries.

>Good idea. Although my backpack is already full of spare stuff to the
>point where it become difficult to find things in there.

They're small enough to fit. Punch a hole in the cardboard package,
attach a string, and you can easily "fish" the batteries out of the
backpack. Or, you could just measure the voltage and do a pre-emptive
replacement at 2.9V or whatever.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-14 8:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/14/2015 10:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-06-13 10:50 PM, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> My experience with Cateye is that if the display can be seen then it
>>> works. When the display can't be seen change the battery :-)
>>>
>>
>> I guess that's the real battery indicator.
>>
>>
>>> This might change with a wireless since if the sender battery dies the
>>> display battery might be still good, but off hand, I can't remember
>>> that happening. I generally use them until the display no longer is
>>> visible and then change both batteries.
>>>
>>
>> I'll carry spares like Jeff suggested. Hoping it writes the trip miles
>> into flash memory occasionally so they'd be still there. Often that's
>> the only way to gauge if I can make it home in time. Trails and even
>> most long distance bike paths out here have next to nothing in signage.
>> That is the reason why I equipped both bikes with speedometers.
>
> On a more general note: This problem is one of many examples where the
> operator interface of electronics could be much better. So many modern
> electronic devices - cyclometers, digital watches, microwaves,
> televisions, GPS units, etc. - frequently leave their owners asking "How
> the heck do I do..." some fairly routine task.
>

Some are outright stupid in the user interface. For example, my Canon
printer/scanner/copier. It is from a hardware POV at least a class
better than the Brother model it replaced. But the software doesn't even
come close. When scanning, one has to first dash to the printer, disable
energy saver mode, press scan, press remote, scroll down, press ok. Then
a mad dash to the computer before it times out and hit scan to PDF.
Meshugginah, IMHO. On the Brother they did it right. The printer
automagically recognizes the wish to scan which is bone-simple to
achieve via the office LAN.

Ok, it does have one benefit. People have to get off their keister every
time they want to scan something and do a couple of short sprints. Which
has health benefits.

> We have several brands of cyclometers in the house. I change the
> batteries once per year, which requires re-calibrating. Each one's
> recalibration procedure is different, meaning I have to keep all the
> instruction manuals on file, along with close-up glasses to read their
> tiny fonts.
>

Which is one more serious (and stupid) design flaw. Every modern micro
controller has flash memory right on board, at no extra cost.

> Oh, and several of those manuals are arcane enough that I've highlighted
> text and added notes. The tech guys have made these devices work very
> well, but those in charge of communication with humans have a long way
> to go.
>

This requires real user feedback and taking such feedback seriously.
Which is our normal modus operandi in medical device design. But other
markets completely ignore it.

What would be really nice is a configurable device. For example, I'd
prefer having these three items displayed simultaneously: Speed (large
letter size), elapsed miles and time of day (both small size). Other
riders have expressed similar wishes but the usual speedometers can only
display two items at a time. Or auto-scroll which isn't too helpful when
one travels bush paths where the eyes have to remain focused on the terrain.

Got to retire. Then I can build all that custom, along with a central
battery system. After all, in my car I do not have to worry about
changing coin cells or AAA batteries all the time.

[Joerg]

It would be nice if even PCs had a warning when the battery might fail.
It's simple but they don't have it.

> My main concern is to not get a call a few weeks after I repair a
> machine because the clock has stopped or the CMOS settings have
> cleared. The batteries cost me about $0.13/ea in quantity, so a
> pre-emptive replacement is a worthwhile exercise.
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/400817585563>
>

Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
why that is? Different chemistry?

> Incidentally, I also do pre-emptive replacements of hard disk drives
> after about 5 years. Sure, they can last longer, but if they fail
> with an out of date or missing backup, it's a PITA to put it back in
> working order. With todays SSD prices, I can also offer a 3x to 5x
> performance boost, making a pre-emptive replacement even more
> attractive.
>

That's one item on my wish list, to add an mSATA drive to my office PC.
Some day.

>>>> The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.
>>>
>>>> http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_dl/2/957/CC-PA100W_QS-m_ENG_v1.pdf
>>>
>>> 15 pages of useless setup info.
>>> Cateye Padrone CC-PA100W
>>> If you look on Page 6, you'll see a picture of the big LCD with all
>>> the icons and indicators marked. In the upper left is a battery icon.
>>> It's much like a cell phone battey indicator where it starts out all
>>> black, and changes in sections to just an outline of the battery when
>>> depleted.
>
>> Indeed, that thing that looks like a barber shop symbol could mean
>> battery. Why can't people just write "lo-bat" like in the good old days?
>
> I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but
> internationalization is a problem. You cannot expect buyers to all
> read and decode English.

Most people would know what lo-bat means. It doesn't take more time to
learn than a barber shop symbol.


> ... In terms of population distribution, it's
> not anywhere near a universal language. ...


Then I wonder how they drive cars. The only one I ever had with
pictograms in the dash (and also my worst one) was a Chrysler. The Audi,
Toyota, Mitsubishu and so on all came with clear-text dashboards. Where
it says "Brake", "Engine", "Oil". Very few pictograms there. The Audi
even has the fuel gauge calling out liters instead of bars. So you know
exactly how much fuel you've got. What a concept!


> ... The trend is towards

> iconography, with no alphabetic symbology of any kind. Just look at
> the user interface in the Chrome and Firefox browsers for a half way
> example. Do not be surprised if future products have no words
> anywhere on the device or the user interface.
>

Many people (including myself) can't decipher such pictograms. When
buying cars a clear-text dashboard was always high on the "must have" list.

The first order of business when getting a new PC is always to switch
everything possible to classic NT4 display. I can't work with
bonbon-colored pictograms.

>
>>> My guess(tm) is that the flashing mph means that the device is waiting
>>> for your input for some kind of setting that involves mph. Perhaps a
>>> wheel diameter calibration setting.
>
>> There isn't any input. The Padrone is simple. You start to ride and it
>> accumulates trip miles, average speed and so on. At the end of the ride
>> you look at all that and, after patting yourself on the shoulder, hold
>> down the button a bit longer to erase. That's all there really is.
>
> Oh... I'm disappointed. I expected exotic features and calculations.
> I guess the simplicity is why they don't have a decent manual.
>

I love it. The Serfas I had before was overloaded with stuff and
complicated to handle.

>>>> I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
>>>> in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
>>>> speedometer froze up on me :-)
>>>
>>> Carry spare batteries.
>
>> Good idea. Although my backpack is already full of spare stuff to the
>> point where it become difficult to find things in there.
>
> They're small enough to fit. Punch a hole in the cardboard package,
> attach a string, and you can easily "fish" the batteries out of the
> backpack. Or, you could just measure the voltage and do a pre-emptive
> replacement at 2.9V or whatever.
>

I'll put them in the first aid kit. I always carry that. Used it many
times, just never on myself so far. Like when li'l Henry discovered that
a Razor scooter ain't no 29" mountain bike and thus does not like to go
up curbs.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>It would be nice if even PCs had a warning when the battery might fail.
>It's simple but they don't have it.

Not a problem with todays PC's. The battery will last longer than the
computah, especially the Apple MacBook batteries that are glued into
the case. See:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>
Your computah has a factory controlled lifetime of exactly 5.0 years
except in California, where it's 7 years. Microsoft is following
Apple's lead and going to a subscription model for Windoze. Kinda
makes Linux look more appealing. Think of this as a giant step
backwards for landfill and eWaste reduction. Worrying about tossing a
cheap battery is minor compared to toss the entire computah.

>Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
>costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
>buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
>and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
>why that is? Different chemistry?

I'm fairly sure they're lithium and magnesium dioxide. If you measure
the ESR of a nearly discharged cell, you'll find that it's much higher
than the quality cell. That explains the rounded knee. I haven't
bothered to dissect some cells yet,
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/CR2032_disassembled.jpg>
so I don't really know what's different. Offhand, my guess(tm) is
that the lithium anode is either oxidized from an air leak,
contaminated by something, or contains insufficient lithium. Lithium
is expensive and I think the cheap cell makers are trying to cut
costs. If I have time next week, I'll do a cell autopsy.

>That's one item on my wish list, to add an mSATA drive to my office PC.
>Some day.

I've had a few negative experiences to make the learning curve an
uphill adventure. Watch out for laptops with slow SATA-1 interfaces.
Lots of tweaks needed to make Windoze happy. For example:
<http://www.overclock.net/t/1133897/windows-7-ssd-tweaking-guide>
The basic idea is to reduce disk writes, which slowly kills the SSD.
Don't even think of running defrag. Etc. Bug me for details if you
get serious.

>Most people would know what lo-bat means. It doesn't take more time to
>learn than a barber shop symbol.

Most English speaking people know that. Other's might just do a
Google search and find:
<https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Lo-Bat/>

>> ... In terms of population distribution, it's
>> not anywhere near a universal language. ...
>
>Then I wonder how they drive cars.

People do not drive cars. They wear cars like a suit of clothes.

>The only one I ever had with
>pictograms in the dash (and also my worst one) was a Chrysler. The Audi,
>Toyota, Mitsubishu and so on all came with clear-text dashboards. Where
>it says "Brake", "Engine", "Oil". Very few pictograms there. The Audi
>even has the fuel gauge calling out liters instead of bars. So you know
>exactly how much fuel you've got. What a concept!

Look again:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch>
Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
if icons have become more or less common. Extra credit to some
manufacturer (name forgotten) who would send the engine warning light
error messages in Morse code.

>Many people (including myself) can't decipher such pictograms. When
>buying cars a clear-text dashboard was always high on the "must have" list.

Just get a label maker and label them yourself. Or, just have an
annotated decoder card handy.

>The first order of business when getting a new PC is always to switch
>everything possible to classic NT4 display. I can't work with
>bonbon-colored pictograms.

I use the Windoze 3.1 desktop colors and fonts. My major complain
about todays Windoze desktop themes is that normal text, the stuff
that I actually read, is in gray or light-gray. It's like the
decorations were more important than the content. Worse, web page
templates are now coming in similar styles. The hint is that nobody
actually reads the text, but does look at the pictures, colors,
buttons, icons, etc. Now, I know how the dinosaurs felt.

>I love it. The Serfas I had before was overloaded with stuff and
>complicated to handle.

I'm a gadget freak. That will never suffice for my gizmo fetish.

>I'll put them in the first aid kit. I always carry that. Used it many
>times, just never on myself so far. Like when li'l Henry discovered that
>a Razor scooter ain't no 29" mountain bike and thus does not like to go
>up curbs.

Ouch. I tried to hop the curb by my office. The problem was that I
wasn't riding my light weight street bike. I was riding my heavy
mountain bike, with a load of junk on the rear rack, which added about
10 lbs. It's been about 3 years and my left wrist still feels the
effects of that impact. I used a wood paint mixer and some bandage
wrap to immobilize my wrist.

The first aid kit is fine, but do check it occasionally. I ignored my
first aid kit in the car for a few years. When I needed it, all the
liquid and paste chemicals had leaked and made a huge mess.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:45:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>Look again:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch>
>Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
>haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
>if icons have become more or less common.

Fiat 500 dashboard:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_3zsjTr-o>
Have your magic decoder ring handy in order to drive this iconic
nightmare.

[AMuzi]

On 6/14/2015 12:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:45:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Look again:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch>
>> Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
>> haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
>> if icons have become more or less common.
>
> Fiat 500 dashboard:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_3zsjTr-o>
> Have your magic decoder ring handy in order to drive this iconic
> nightmare.
>

And they need a key to start. Some cars now, an electronic
'key' !

http://www.mainstreetmotorscarco.com/photos/1962-Chevrolet-Corvair/62%20Corvair%20016.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[avag...@gmail.com]

WELL THAT'LL KILL WHAT'S LEFT...

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/cateye-padrone-cyclocomputer-%e2%80%93-making-all-your-numbers-bigger

MY ENDURO FREEZES AT LOW VOLTAGE

[John B.]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:17:39 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2015-06-13 10:50 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
>>> "mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
>>> always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
>>> speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?
>>>
>>> The manual is fairly useless, 22MB full of fluff.
>>>
>>> http://www.cateye.com/files/manual_dl/2/957/CC-PA100W_QS-m_ENG_v1.pdf
>>>
>>> I use this device mostly to gauge mileage and time to make sure I return
>>> in due course. I'd be in the dog house if I'd miss dinner because the
>>> speedometer froze up on me :-)
>>
>> A look at a number of Cateye cyclemeters all say that the MPH or KPH
>> "sign" flashes while measuring the speed. I checked the Velo 7, the
>> Strada and the Padrone (CCPA 100W) documentation and then checked my
>> own bike. If it is working normally the "MPH" flashes when the wheel
>> is spinning. When the wheel stops the "MPH" is steady.
>>
>
>Mine flashed even at a traffic light. Then again the Cateye Padrone has
>some issues with the RF link. RF design seems to become a lost art these
>days, would love to get my hands in there. For example, when there is a
>lot of air traffic around here the Padrone handlebar unit will not turn
>itself off. So I made it a little tin foil hat. No kidding, that makes
>it turn off and not eat up the battery.
>

Could be. On my usual "Sunday Ride" there is an area, perhaps 75
meters of street, where my Cateye Velo Wireless+ seems to go mad and
occasionally I'm suddenly doing 50 KPH :-) It never seems to happen
anywhere else and only happens occasionally.

Perhaps ghosts?

>
>> My experience with Cateye is that if the display can be seen then it
>> works. When the display can't be seen change the battery :-)
>>
>
>I guess that's the real battery indicator.
>
>
>> This might change with a wireless since if the sender battery dies the
>> display battery might be still good, but off hand, I can't remember
>> that happening. I generally use them until the display no longer is
>> visible and then change both batteries.
>>
>
>I'll carry spares like Jeff suggested. Hoping it writes the trip miles
>into flash memory occasionally so they'd be still there. Often that's
>the only way to gauge if I can make it home in time. Trails and even
>most long distance bike paths out here have next to nothing in signage.
>That is the reason why I equipped both bikes with speedometers.

Nope. If you take the battery out of any of the Cateye models that
I've used everything returns to default settings. No flash memory.
Some models may let you reset the mileage but they don't remember it.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/14/2015 8:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:17:39 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Then again the Cateye Padrone has
>> some issues with the RF link. RF design seems to become a lost art these
>> days, would love to get my hands in there. For example, when there is a
>> lot of air traffic around here the Padrone handlebar unit will not turn
>> itself off. So I made it a little tin foil hat. No kidding, that makes
>> it turn off and not eat up the battery.
>>
>
> Could be. On my usual "Sunday Ride" there is an area, perhaps 75
> meters of street, where my Cateye Velo Wireless+ seems to go mad and
> occasionally I'm suddenly doing 50 KPH :-) It never seems to happen
> anywhere else and only happens occasionally.
>
> Perhaps ghosts?

Could be. Notice how you almost never hear any more of dishes
spontaneously flying around kitchens and breaking, of candlesticks
jumping off mantles, of mysterious loud noises when nobody's there?

My long-held theory is that all the poltergeists have moved into our
electronics.

(And don't be surprised if they keep you from seeing this post!)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/14/2015 1:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
>> costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
>> buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
>> and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
>> why that is? Different chemistry?
>
> I'm fairly sure they're lithium and magnesium dioxide. If you measure
> the ESR of a nearly discharged cell, you'll find that it's much higher
> than the quality cell. That explains the rounded knee. I haven't
> bothered to dissect some cells yet,
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/CR2032_disassembled.jpg>
> so I don't really know what's different. Offhand, my guess(tm) is
> that the lithium anode is either oxidized from an air leak,
> contaminated by something, or contains insufficient lithium. Lithium
> is expensive and I think the cheap cell makers are trying to cut
> costs. If I have time next week, I'll do a cell autopsy.

Vaguely related: I've found that the Cateye Wireless cyclometer on my
folding bike craps out if the temperature's below 40 Fahrenheit. The
sending unit is supposed to be within 30" of the main (display) unit,
and it was, but not quite as close as on a bike with normal wheels.

So far, my solution has been to move the display unit to the low frame
tube, instead of the handlebar. It works, but it's not quite as
convenient there.

I've wondered about rigging up some sort of extension antenna, etc. to
improve the signal strength or radio connection, but I know almost
nothing about antenna design.

Jeff, this sounds like the sort of quirky problem that might interest you.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:45:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>wrote:

>>Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
>>costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
>>buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
>>and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
>>why that is? Different chemistry?

>I'm fairly sure they're lithium and magnesium dioxide. If you measure
>the ESR of a nearly discharged cell, you'll find that it's much higher
>than the quality cell. That explains the rounded knee. I haven't
>bothered to dissect some cells yet,
><https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/CR2032_disassembled.jpg>
>so I don't really know what's different. Offhand, my guess(tm) is
>that the lithium anode is either oxidized from an air leak,
>contaminated by something, or contains insufficient lithium. Lithium
>is expensive and I think the cheap cell makers are trying to cut
>costs. If I have time next week, I'll do a cell autopsy.

My cheap Chinese cell looks very much identical to the above photo
from Wikipedia. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia photo did not identify
the manufactory:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/CR2032-disassembled.jpg>
Note the white stuff on the (-) terminal (anode) on the right. That's
lithium oxide (Li2O). It was clear when I first tore it apart, but
turned slowly white on exposure to air. It's been about 20 mins and
it's still adding more white. There was also a familiar stench when I
first opened the battery, but I couldn't identify it.

Todo:
1. Constant current discharge test at 200 uA (about C/100) to match
the discharge graph on the data sheet:
<http://datasheet.octopart.com/CR3032-Panasonic-datasheet-9712031.pdf>
2. Find an overpriced name brand cell and do it all again.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:38:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Vaguely related: I've found that the Cateye Wireless cyclometer on my
>folding bike craps out if the temperature's below 40 Fahrenheit. The
>sending unit is supposed to be within 30" of the main (display) unit,
>and it was, but not quite as close as on a bike with normal wheels.
>
>So far, my solution has been to move the display unit to the low frame
>tube, instead of the handlebar. It works, but it's not quite as
>convenient there.

The wireless bicycle computah manufacturers go through quite a bit of
effort to REDUCE the range of their devices. The problem is
interference from other cyclists with similar devices. Imagine the
havoc if these devices had (for example) a 20 ft range and you were
riding among dozens of similar devices.
<http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2011/03/wireless-cycle-computers-and.html>

My problem is that I don't know exactly how it's controlled and
whether it's done at the transmitter, receiver, or both. I could
probably get a clue from the circuitry, but inside the typical bicycle
computah is a cheap "chip on board", which is covered with a blob of
epoxy. These are difficult to probe and easy to break.
<http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/39643/chip-on-board>

>I've wondered about rigging up some sort of extension antenna, etc. to
>improve the signal strength or radio connection, but I know almost
>nothing about antenna design.

Yes, that can be done at the risk of either generating more
interference to others at the transmitter end, or picking up more
interference at the receiver end. Careful what you wish for.

Note that the devices I've seen do not have any way of "pairing" the
transmitter and receiver, as one would do with a Bluetooth devices.
The transmitter simply sends a burst of data every time the wheel goes
around and the receiver responds to the data. If there's a similar
transmitter nearby, it will also respond to it if the receiver had
sufficient sensitivity, which it fortunately it does NOT.

A bigger problem is LED light switcher interference:
<http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/1556/stopping-interference-between-led-lights-and-wireless-cycling-computer>
The RFI/EMI caused by the switching power supply in the LED light
creates broadband interference that prevents the receiver from hearing
the transmitter. The close proximity of the LED light and the cycling
computah, plus the tendency towards higher and higher mega-lumen
lights, make the problem difficult to fix. Any chance that LED
lighting interference is causing the range reduction?

>Jeff, this sounds like the sort of quirky problem that might interest you.

Nope. I'm currently buried in unfinished projects. The big one is
cleaning up the giant mess that was once my home workbench.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/shop-clean-01.jpg>
As you may notice, not much can be done until I get off the computah
and finish untrashing the shop. I also have your vehicle detector
loop finder project in a box somewhere.

I'll see what I can deduce from patents and the FCCID data. Maker,
model, and if possible, the FCCID number. No promises.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:12:42 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Could be. On my usual "Sunday Ride" there is an area, perhaps 75
>meters of street, where my Cateye Velo Wireless+ seems to go mad and
>occasionally I'm suddenly doing 50 KPH :-) It never seems to happen
>anywhere else and only happens occasionally.

There are so many likely sources of EMI and RFI these days that I
don't even want to speculate. It's a rather common problem. This one
turned out to be a wireless alarm sensor with a half dead battery:
<http://www.doityourself.com/forum/communications-voice-radio-data-transfer-products-devices/327749-433-mhz-interference-causes.html>
If you happen to have a spectrum analyzer or receiver that covers the
433 MHz area, you can probably hunt down the culprit with a
directional antenna. I've done this many times on 2.4GHz for wi-fi
interference. Since it seems to be continuously on the air, and since
it will require a rather strong signal to be heard by an intentionally
deaf bicycle computah receiver, you should have no problems finding
the RFI/EMI source.

Looks like your model is no longer on the web pile:
<http://www.cateye.com/en/products/category/1/>
Similar devices run on 433.925 Mhz, but there are other authorized
frequencies available such as 315, 345, 390, 912, 2400MHz. These also
vary by jurisdiction.

>Perhaps ghosts?

Nope. Ghosts on the picture went out of fashion with analog TV.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:12:42 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Could be. On my usual "Sunday Ride" there is an area, perhaps 75
>meters of street, where my Cateye Velo Wireless+ seems to go mad and
>occasionally I'm suddenly doing 50 KPH :-) It never seems to happen
>anywhere else and only happens occasionally.

The 50 km/hr indication is an important clue as it might indicate the
RPM or frequency of the interfering device.

<http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16114> Wheel
in. RPM per MPH RPM per km/hr (0.621 MPH = 1 km/hr)
29 11.6 7.20
27.5 12.2 7.58
26 12.8 7.94
24 14.0 8.69
22 15.3 9.50
20 16.8 10.4
16 21.0 13.0

Assuming a 28.4" diameter on a 29" wheel (i.e. 700c 622mm rim), I get:
50 kph * 7.20 RPM/kph = 360 RPM
360 rpm / 60 sec/min = 60 revolutions/sec = 60 Hz.
It's some kind of 60 Hz AC powered device. My guess(tm) is something
that arcs once per revolution or cycle. It's NOT a multi-pole motor
or LED light dimmer. Perhaps a neon sign? Microwave industrial
heater? Very old light dimmer?

[avag...@gmail.com]

but I know almost
> nothing about antenna design.

ARRL Antennae Handbook in the library

Slo's environment is interference free or near a diesel generator. Claming a connection is post Edison/Leyden confusion: hoop snakes, a common pest on Ohio.

manmade electromagnetic interference and ghosts are incompatible

first off with a temp problem is buy a new batt and take current batt inot a warm environment before using the computer...new batt from warm new batt from cold.

its batt and temp not electronics and temp.

contractions in the board are possible but then that would eventually produce shock/jiggle disconnects.

[John B.]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 23:31:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:12:42 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Could be. On my usual "Sunday Ride" there is an area, perhaps 75
>>meters of street, where my Cateye Velo Wireless+ seems to go mad and
>>occasionally I'm suddenly doing 50 KPH :-) It never seems to happen
>>anywhere else and only happens occasionally.
>
>The 50 km/hr indication is an important clue as it might indicate the
>RPM or frequency of the interfering device.
>
><http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16114> Wheel
>in. RPM per MPH RPM per km/hr (0.621 MPH = 1 km/hr)
> 29 11.6 7.20
> 27.5 12.2 7.58
> 26 12.8 7.94
> 24 14.0 8.69
> 22 15.3 9.50
> 20 16.8 10.4
> 16 21.0 13.0
>
>Assuming a 28.4" diameter on a 29" wheel (i.e. 700c 622mm rim), I get:
> 50 kph * 7.20 RPM/kph = 360 RPM
> 360 rpm / 60 sec/min = 60 revolutions/sec = 60 Hz.
>It's some kind of 60 Hz AC powered device. My guess(tm) is something
>that arcs once per revolution or cycle. It's NOT a multi-pole motor
>or LED light dimmer. Perhaps a neon sign? Microwave industrial
>heater? Very old light dimmer?
>

Well, we can ignore the 60 Hz interference - ain't none here :-) It is
a funny spot. Down a long straight and then up and over a bridge
across a canal and suddenly, on the way down the other side you are
doing 50 kph :-) The road is about second story height and there isn't
anything closer than, say 30 yards,

Probably either ghosts or aliens :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-14 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:45:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Look again:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch>
>> Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
>> haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
>> if icons have become more or less common.
>
> Fiat 500 dashboard:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_3zsjTr-o>
> Have your magic decoder ring handy in order to drive this iconic
> nightmare.
>

Oh horror! One car I'll never have.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 18:15:37 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>

It's not the 60 Hz that's causing the interference. It's some 433MHz
RF belching device that is synchronized to the power line frequency.
It's rather difficult to ignore the 60Hz when it produces 50 km/hr
every time.

For example, it could be some appliance, where the display normally
runs on DC, but thanks to the miserable quality of cheap electrolytic
capacitors, is now running with some AC ripple on the power supply.
Every time the ripple waveform gets to some voltage point, the display
driver goes into oscillation and belches a pulse of 433MHz RF,
conveniently sychronized to the power line. That may not be the exact
mechanism, but methinks it's likely.

So, what happens when you stop? Does it still show 50 km/hr when
you're NOT moving? Do other brands of wireless bicycle computer do
the same thing?

>It is
>a funny spot. Down a long straight and then up and over a bridge
>across a canal and suddenly, on the way down the other side you are
>doing 50 kph :-) The road is about second story height and there isn't
>anything closer than, say 30 yards,

Lat-Long for a look with Google Earth? 360 panorama photo?
Any antennas visible on the bridge or nearby buildings?

Got a portable radio scanner? Tune it to 433.925MHz. If possible use
AM not FM demodulation. Check if it hears anything besides home
weather stations and and such.

>Probably either ghosts or aliens :-)

Any sufficiently advanced cycling problem is indistinguishable from
magic, ghosts, and aliens. However, you are using the correct
approach. A suitable culprit must be selected before a problem can be
solved.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-14 10:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It would be nice if even PCs had a warning when the battery might fail.
>> It's simple but they don't have it.
>
> Not a problem with todays PC's. The battery will last longer than the
> computah, especially the Apple MacBook batteries that are glued into
> the case. See:
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>
> Your computah has a factory controlled lifetime of exactly 5.0 years
> except in California, where it's 7 years. Microsoft is following
> Apple's lead and going to a subscription model for Windoze. Kinda
> makes Linux look more appealing. Think of this as a giant step
> backwards for landfill and eWaste reduction. Worrying about tossing a
> cheap battery is minor compared to toss the entire computah.
>

I do not subscribe to that concept and generally use computers for 10
years or more. Until something literally falls off. So I do occasionally
have the things act up because the coin cell ran out. Since PCs have no
indicator for that all one can see is that the clock begins to lag. Then
it's the white knuckle thing, changing it out while the PC is running.

>> Since I didn't have anything I needed from Digikey and then the shipping
>> costs are high I bought some via Amazon this time. Around 15c when
>> buying 48 cells. I am testing them right now, they are from Instapark
>> and seem to not quite match Panasonic. Rounded knee as well. Do you know
>> why that is? Different chemistry?
>
> I'm fairly sure they're lithium and magnesium dioxide. If you measure
> the ESR of a nearly discharged cell, you'll find that it's much higher
> than the quality cell. That explains the rounded knee. I haven't
> bothered to dissect some cells yet,
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/CR2032_disassembled.jpg>
> so I don't really know what's different. Offhand, my guess(tm) is
> that the lithium anode is either oxidized from an air leak,
> contaminated by something, or contains insufficient lithium. Lithium
> is expensive and I think the cheap cell makers are trying to cut
> costs. If I have time next week, I'll do a cell autopsy.
>

The latter would explain it. The rounded knee is a bummer for some
applications where you need the voltage to remain up for at least most
of the life of the cell. The Instapark ones certainly have a weak knee.
I discharged one through a 1k resistor and it went gradually down to 2V
over a period of slightly over 20h. Not that great.

But I needed some quickly and didn't want to pay the high shipping costs
for Digikey. It's not for a critical application.

>> That's one item on my wish list, to add an mSATA drive to my office PC.
>> Some day.
>
> I've had a few negative experiences to make the learning curve an
> uphill adventure. Watch out for laptops with slow SATA-1 interfaces.
> Lots of tweaks needed to make Windoze happy. For example:
> <http://www.overclock.net/t/1133897/windows-7-ssd-tweaking-guide>
> The basic idea is to reduce disk writes, which slowly kills the SSD.
> Don't even think of running defrag. Etc. Bug me for details if you
> get serious.
>

Thanks. I am not in a rush and the main reason is that it seems one
program (LTSpice) seems unable to write its huge output files into RAM.
So first I'll try a RAM disk.

>> Most people would know what lo-bat means. It doesn't take more time to
>> learn than a barber shop symbol.
>
> Most English speaking people know that. Other's might just do a
> Google search and find:
> <https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Lo-Bat/>
>

:-)

>>> ... In terms of population distribution, it's
>>> not anywhere near a universal language. ...
>>
>> Then I wonder how they drive cars.
>
> People do not drive cars. They wear cars like a suit of clothes.
>
>> The only one I ever had with
>> pictograms in the dash (and also my worst one) was a Chrysler. The Audi,
>> Toyota, Mitsubishu and so on all came with clear-text dashboards. Where
>> it says "Brake", "Engine", "Oil". Very few pictograms there. The Audi
>> even has the fuel gauge calling out liters instead of bars. So you know
>> exactly how much fuel you've got. What a concept!
>
> Look again:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch>
> Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
> haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
> if icons have become more or less common. Extra credit to some
> manufacturer (name forgotten) who would send the engine warning light
> error messages in Morse code.
>

This is how it's done right:

http://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photography-dashboard-military-vehicle-world-war-ii-image40605462

Most car mfgs don't get it right but some do. Those are the ones I prefer.

>> Many people (including myself) can't decipher such pictograms. When
>> buying cars a clear-text dashboard was always high on the "must have" list.
>
> Just get a label maker and label them yourself. Or, just have an
> annotated decoder card handy.
>
>> The first order of business when getting a new PC is always to switch
>> everything possible to classic NT4 display. I can't work with
>> bonbon-colored pictograms.
>
> I use the Windoze 3.1 desktop colors and fonts. My major complain
> about todays Windoze desktop themes is that normal text, the stuff
> that I actually read, is in gray or light-gray. It's like the
> decorations were more important than the content. Worse, web page
> templates are now coming in similar styles. The hint is that nobody
> actually reads the text, but does look at the pictures, colors,
> buttons, icons, etc. Now, I know how the dinosaurs felt.
>

On mine only the background is light gray, the text is black.

>> I love it. The Serfas I had before was overloaded with stuff and
>> complicated to handle.
>
> I'm a gadget freak. That will never suffice for my gizmo fetish.
>

When it comes to bicycles I am a minimalist. If it's not needed leave it
away. Else it'll break someday.

>> I'll put them in the first aid kit. I always carry that. Used it many
>> times, just never on myself so far. Like when li'l Henry discovered that
>> a Razor scooter ain't no 29" mountain bike and thus does not like to go
>> up curbs.
>
> Ouch. I tried to hop the curb by my office. The problem was that I
> wasn't riding my light weight street bike. I was riding my heavy
> mountain bike, with a load of junk on the rear rack, which added about
> 10 lbs. It's been about 3 years and my left wrist still feels the
> effects of that impact. I used a wood paint mixer and some bandage
> wrap to immobilize my wrist.
>
> The first aid kit is fine, but do check it occasionally. I ignored my
> first aid kit in the car for a few years. When I needed it, all the
> liquid and paste chemicals had leaked and made a huge mess.
>

Good point, especially since it's in my hydration pack which is in the
glistening sun most of the ride.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:42:43 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Think of it as a theft deterrent. The thief jumps into the car, is
ready to speed away, and suddenly discovered that he doesn't know how
to drive the car.

Icons appear when there's a language or a space problem. For example,
the Linksys SP921 phone on my desk has a conventional English display
and keypad, but all the feature buttons only have icons. As products
become internationalized, and operator panels become smaller, methinks
you're going to see more icons and less text.

The fix for buttons is easy. Just have the device speak the button
function name when the button is pressed. Eventually, you'll learn to
associate the function with the button (just like Pavlov's dog). A
display icon is a bit more difficult as the announcement is not
synchronized to anything that you're doing, and can therefore create
some confusion. When it was tried in an automobile, most everyone
hated it and turned it off. (Think seat belt interlocks of the
1980's). However, when left on, people were able to learn the
operation of unfamiliar equipment much quicker and better than those
fumbling with the operators manual.

Anyway, the icons are coming and resistance is futile.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/15/2015 11:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:42:43 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-06-14 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>> Fiat 500 dashboard:
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_3zsjTr-o>
>>> Have your magic decoder ring handy in order to drive this iconic
>>> nightmare.
>
>> Oh horror! One car I'll never have.
>
> Think of it as a theft deterrent. The thief jumps into the car, is
> ready to speed away, and suddenly discovered that he doesn't know how
> to drive the car.

Manual transmissions are adequate for that.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/failed-carjackers-couldnt-drive-stick-shift

My daughter learned to drive on a stick shift car. As a pretty
17-year-old, she had a part time job in a coffee shop. One rainy
evening at closing time, a gallant young co-worker offered to run out in
the rain to bring her (well, actually, my) car to the door for her. She
happily agreed.

Young Mister Gallant re-appeared in a minute or two, soaking wet and
without the car. He said "You drive _stick_!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

happens all the time now:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/police-search-carjacker-who-stole-mustang-manual-t/nmHWx/

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-carjacker-cant-drive-stick-shift-20150216-story.html

> "the device speak the button
> function name when the button is pressed.

I have troubles just like everyone else, but at least my
bike and my car don't talk to me.

[Joerg]

Among other things I do EMC for a living. True story: System failed at
random, every few seconds. Looked more regular than random to me but
sometimes it didn't fail. On very sunny days it never failed. Gazed out
the window but not to look for something, more to collect my thoughts.
"What's that thing that reflects the sun every few seconds there in the
distance, on the hill?" ... "Oh that. Nothing. Just a big military Radar
... oh wait ... DANG!"

When the blinds were closed (on hot sunny days) they must have shielded
enough.

[Joerg]

Dim sum dumplings? :-)

> Todo:
> 1. Constant current discharge test at 200 uA (about C/100) to match
> the discharge graph on the data sheet:
> <http://datasheet.octopart.com/CR3032-Panasonic-datasheet-9712031.pdf>
> 2. Find an overpriced name brand cell and do it all again.
>

Panasonic is quite good.

[avag...@gmail.com]

NEW BATT, clean connections, check for broken wires, open case n squirt with cleaner. Check install for loonies.

[avag...@gmail.com]

ahhhh a new artform portfolio from GooImages



https://goo.gl/dfP6rI

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 2:39:19 PM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> ahhhh a new artform portfolio from GooImages
>
>
>
> https://goo.gl/dfP6rI

eeees ina museum !


https://goo.gl/dyS9IT

[Sir Ridesalot]

I have a Schwinn wireless that often shows a current speed of 99 kph even if the computer is off the bike. This is frequent near Sobeys and I often wondered if it was the auto doors that caused it. However it does happen elsewhere.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-15 11:49 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> considered Sun, 14 Jun 2015

> 20:14:50 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:38:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[...]

>>> I've wondered about rigging up some sort of extension antenna, etc. to
>>> improve the signal strength or radio connection, but I know almost
>>> nothing about antenna design.
>>
>> Yes, that can be done at the risk of either generating more
>> interference to others at the transmitter end, or picking up more
>> interference at the receiver end. Careful what you wish for.
>

> Any way of "piping" the signal, or making it more directional?


At 433MHz the antenna geometry would be prohibitively large. Sometimes a
snippet of wire can work as an RF conduit but that's more hit and miss
and then you might as well us a wired system.

>>
>> Note that the devices I've seen do not have any way of "pairing" the
>> transmitter and receiver, as one would do with a Bluetooth devices.
>> The transmitter simply sends a burst of data every time the wheel goes
>> around and the receiver responds to the data. If there's a similar
>> transmitter nearby, it will also respond to it if the receiver had
>> sufficient sensitivity, which it fortunately it does NOT.
>

> Both the wireless computers I've used needed to be paired.
> One of them can be paired with two sets of sensors, and automagically
> switches between settings for wheel circumference, total distance, etc
> when you move it between the respective bikes and it detects the
> "other" set of sensors waking up when triggered by movement. The
> second set were an option, so I needed to pair them with the computer
> myself (as I did with the HRM strap).
> I'd assumed that they all needed that, but maybe not at the cheapest
> end of the market. I know some are now using Bluetooth, so those must
> need pairing.
> I very much doubt if anything would be useable in a pro peloton if it
> didn't need to be paired, as the overlap between riders would mean
> that a cadence or power sensor on an adjacent bike could often be
> closer than the one on your own.
> Of course, any weak signal can simply be drowned out by too much
> interference.


That's the point. If you are riding in a huge cacophony of other 433MHz
transmitters which use the same frequency then all the code-pairing
won't help. The RF link becomes like trying to hold a phone conversation
next to a Harley-Davidson. Bluetooth is easier, more available spectrum.

On a road bike I'd go with wired systems except for functions where that
isn't practical such as human body sensors. I only have a wireless
version on my MTB because any cables would be smashed and torn by rock
hits, branches and other flying stuff. Or the occasional crash although
I didn't have one in about 10 months now.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-15 1:28 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Mon, 15 Jun 2015

> 08:00:08 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 2015-06-14 10:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It would be nice if even PCs had a warning when the battery might fail.
>>>> It's simple but they don't have it.
>>>
>>> Not a problem with todays PC's. The battery will last longer than the
>>> computah, especially the Apple MacBook batteries that are glued into
>>> the case. See:
>>> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>
>>> Your computah has a factory controlled lifetime of exactly 5.0 years
>>> except in California, where it's 7 years. Microsoft is following
>>> Apple's lead and going to a subscription model for Windoze. Kinda
>>> makes Linux look more appealing. Think of this as a giant step
>>> backwards for landfill and eWaste reduction. Worrying about tossing a
>>> cheap battery is minor compared to toss the entire computah.
>>>
>>
>> I do not subscribe to that concept and generally use computers for 10
>> years or more. Until something literally falls off. So I do occasionally
>> have the things act up because the coin cell ran out. Since PCs have no
>> indicator for that all one can see is that the clock begins to lag. Then
>> it's the white knuckle thing, changing it out while the PC is running.
>>

> Install Network Time Protocol (NTP) - it's even available as a windows
> binary wrapped in an installer.
> https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm
> If you really want, you can even point it to my stratum 1 NTP server,
> but I doubt if you'll get better than +/- 5mS accuracy, as that's what
> I see from a monitor in LA. Better to use one (or several) from the
> local region/country in the pool project (of which I'm a member) -
> us.pool.ntp.org has 796 active members. so you must be able to find
> several that are far closer than me. See
> http://www.pool.ntp.org/zone/us
> for generic details, although with a current build of NTP you can use
> the POOL directive so just one line -
> pool us.pool.ntp.org
> would do it for a minimal installation, and would dynamically assign
> you four known accurate local NTP servers (and they will be local - it
> uses network response times to allocate you servers that are near you
> on the internet).
> This should set and keep your clock accurate to within a millisecond
> or so, even on a fairly old computer, assuming you are not on dial-up
> internet, where it may drift a little more between connections -
> although it even has an algorithm for compensating for that.
> Even +/-5mS is pretty impressive considering the variations in routing
> and symmetry over the network range between me and the west coast of
> the US though. On my own LAN I achieve +/- 20uS (my Stratum 1 server
> itself runs at +/- 5uS, but I'm hoping to improve that before long to
> the sub 100nS range). In theory (which is always better than
> practice, of course) a GPS receiver with Pulse Per Second output
> should be capable of about 5nS accuracy if it is static (a couple of
> light/metres, to be more specific).


+/- 5sec is good enough for my purposes. I need it to log into online
conferences in time, to log consulting time for clients, and so on.

> Do watch out though, as the last minute of this month (UTC) has 61
> seconds (yes, really - it's a leapsecond). I'm not sure when that
> leapsecond occurs where you are though - I think you get 16:59:60 as a
> valid (leap)second, followed by 17:00:00 but I could be a timezone or
> DST setting out.
> The current version of NTP will handle it correctly now in any version
> of windows, apparently, although windows certainly can't be trusted to
> do that properly on it's own.
>
> As for my BIOS settings, they are all set to default anyway, and the
> server only gets rebooted about once a year.
> If it gets powered down it means my UPS batteries are too small :)
>

It isn't always default here and I want to keep the clock as an
indicator to show me when the coin cell wears out. Because PCs have no
other means of telling us.

[...]

>>>> That's one item on my wish list, to add an mSATA drive to my office PC.
>>>> Some day.
>>>
>>> I've had a few negative experiences to make the learning curve an
>>> uphill adventure. Watch out for laptops with slow SATA-1 interfaces.
>>> Lots of tweaks needed to make Windoze happy. For example:
>>> <http://www.overclock.net/t/1133897/windows-7-ssd-tweaking-guide>
>>> The basic idea is to reduce disk writes, which slowly kills the SSD.
>>> Don't even think of running defrag. Etc. Bug me for details if you
>>> get serious.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. I am not in a rush and the main reason is that it seems one
>> program (LTSpice) seems unable to write its huge output files into RAM.
>> So first I'll try a RAM disk.
>>

> I used a RAID of SSDs in my PC - nice and quick, and with RAID5 you
> can just swap them out as they wear out :)
> The (ancient) servers are still using U160 SCSI though, as they are
> big enough, fast enough (in RAID5 configuration with a big battery
> backed cache), well backed up, redundant and hot-swap, and I still
> have spares available.


I thought about a RAID office server. But I am planning to wind down a
bit with my consulting business, maybe to 2-3 days/week. Hopefully with
a couple years. To have more time for volunteering and, of course, bike
riding. My dream would be to be able to take off on my bike for a whole
weekday. Where I have the trails and bike paths almost to myself.

[...]

>>>>> ... In terms of population distribution, it's
>>>>> not anywhere near a universal language. ...
>>>>
>>>> Then I wonder how they drive cars.
>>>
>>> People do not drive cars. They wear cars like a suit of clothes.
>>>
>>>> The only one I ever had with
>>>> pictograms in the dash (and also my worst one) was a Chrysler. The Audi,
>>>> Toyota, Mitsubishu and so on all came with clear-text dashboards. Where
>>>> it says "Brake", "Engine", "Oil". Very few pictograms there. The Audi
>>>> even has the fuel gauge calling out liters instead of bars. So you know
>>>> exactly how much fuel you've got. What a concept!
>>>
>>> Look again:
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=automobile+dashboard&tbm=isch>
>>> Sure looks like a mess of icons and pictographs to me. Actually, I
>>> haven't looked at dashboards for a long time, so I don't really know
>>> if icons have become more or less common. Extra credit to some
>>> manufacturer (name forgotten) who would send the engine warning light
>>> error messages in Morse code.
>>>
>>
>> This is how it's done right:
>>
>> http://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photography-dashboard-military-vehicle-world-war-ii-image40605462
>

> Things have moved on a bit since then.


Deteriorated would be a more fitting word. Pictograms nobody
understands, too much electronics that goes kerklunk a lot, and when it
does it causes a huge slurping sound which is caused by money being
vacuumed out of your bank account.


> In those days, the only nod given to ergonomic was not actually having
> to stop and get out of your seat to reach the switches!


Good enough, I'd say.

>>
>> Most car mfgs don't get it right but some do. Those are the ones I prefer.
>>

> You're going to run out of options before long.
> As icons get more and more standardised, more mfg's are adopting them.


I probably don't have to. My SUV is 18 years old and because most of my
errand running has now been shifted to MTB and road bike it gets about
1000 miles per year. So chances are that it outlives me. If it doesn't
I'll probably buy a 50's model pickup truck which are nearly indestructible.


> It saves them a lot of money in production, when they build cars for
> more than one market, and even in the US, there are plenty of people
> without any English at all, to say nothing of those for whom it is not
> their first language.


I am one of those guys. Yet I found it important to learn English even
while I was a little kid. Because not knowing English makes people a 2nd
class worker in almost every technical profession. Without English one
cannot thrive in technology.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-15 2:40 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Mon, 15 Jun 2015

> Bug hunting in networks can be similar.
> What would you say to an initially apparently random set of servers
> which mysteriously freeze solid (to the point of needing a power
> cycle) after weeks of reliable running?
> Careful analysis of failures revealed that only the ones on FDDI
> connections were affected - the ones using Fibre Ethernet were not.
> There were no other dif fences in the hardware or software (built from
> a standard installation image with both network drivers available on
> build).
> Later, more detailed investigation found that all the failures were in
> the morning just short of 7 weeks and a day after being started or
> re-booted (so if it had been started on a Monday, people would find a
> dead server on the Tuesday morning 7 weeks later, anything from the
> small hours before any tech support arrived, up to about mid-day).
> Obviously, it took many months to gather enough data to narrow it down
> that far.
> Eventually, I was able to accurately predict a server lockup - which
> meant having support standing by to restart it, but not doing anything
> until it locked up (or we'd never have been able to prove why), and
> precisely noting the time of it freezing. And I was correct to the
> second.
>
> Answer?
> See below, but try to work it out first :)
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> No cheating!


I didn't, honestly :-)


> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> The FDDI network card had a millisecond timer on it for time-stamping
> network packets, which was a 32bit counter.
> 2^32 milliseconds after being started, it overflowed and froze the
> whole machine. The ONLY thing which would reset that damned counter
> was a power cycle!
> It all ended up costing 3Com quite a lot of money, because these cards
> were ALL installed in critical server systems (why else would you be
> using FDDI?), ALL had to be replaced at 3Com's expense (no software
> fix possible, apparently) and ALL had been suffering the same
> problems, but we were the ones who found it. 3Com had kept blaming
> other elements of the systems, but as we had multiple machines,
> identical other than the card, and several examples of each, they had
> nowhere to hide.
>

I immediately thought "timer overflow". Remember the (2nd) big egg in
the face with the Boeing dreamliner? If you didn't reboot before the APU
timers ran out you'd eventually lose all electric power 248 days after
the last re-boot. That could cause a hairy situation.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/01/us-aviation-authority-boeing-787-dreamliner-bug-could-cause-loss-of-control

Now I wonder when will be the first time that happens with a bicycle.
Roaring down a hill, li'l read light comes on, what the heck does this
mean ... you reach into the brakes ... nothing.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 11:57:12 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 10:55:14 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >>Assuming a 28.4" diameter on a 29" wheel (i.e. 700c 622mm rim), I get:
>> >> 50 kph * 7.20 RPM/kph = 360 RPM
>> >> 360 rpm / 60 sec/min = 60 revolutions/sec = 60 Hz.
>> >>It's some kind of 60 Hz AC powered device. My guess(tm) is something
>> >>that arcs once per revolution or cycle.

>I have a Schwinn wireless that often shows a current speed of 99 kph
>even if the computer is off the bike. This is frequent near Sobeys and
>I often wondered if it was the auto doors that caused it. However
>it does happen elsewhere.

The numbers for 99 kph (actually 100 kph) produce twice the
interference rate.

Assuming a 28.4" diameter on a 29" wheel (i.e. 700c 622mm rim), I get:

100 kph * 7.20 RPM/kph = 720 RPM
720 rpm / 60 sec/min = 120 revolutions/sec = 120 Hz.

With something powered by 60 Hz AC, 120 Hz is what a full wave
rectifier produces in a typical DC power supply. Again, my guess(tm)
1.0 is that something with a failing bulging crappy worthless
electrolytic capacitor in the power supply, will produce 120 Hz ripple
in the power supply. If the interference source is powered by such a
ripple infested power supply, it will produce bursts of RF
interference at a 120 Hz rate, which is what you're probably
observing.

The problem is that there is almost an infinite number of possible
interference sources. My guess(tm) 2.0 is that it's something that
involves an arc or gas discharge, which are the few devices that I can
conjure which have the necessary bandwidth to trash a wide range of
frequencies and can produce broadband RF EMI up into the UHF region.
If this is true, you should be able to hear a 120 Hz buzzz on any
AM/SW/AIR (not FM) receiver. If you have such a radio, tune to a dead
spot on the dial, and try walking around Sobey's to see if it hears
anything unusual. Sobey's is a market chain, so I would guess(tm) 3.0
that it might be a neon sign, fluorescent lamp fixture, compressor
motor, or door alarm. You can also try walking around the building
with the Schwinn receiver and draw a map of the farthest distance that
it hears the interference. The map can then be used to produce a fair
guess as to the interference source location. Do the same inside the
market.

If you don't want to do the dirty work yourself, you can always
contact the local ham radio club and get them involved. Interest
levels may vary but if you promise to write it up for the local news
papers, I think you'll get some assistance.

[James]

On 16/06/15 06:28, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Mon, 15 Jun 2015

> 08:00:08 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 2015-06-14 10:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:06:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It would be nice if even PCs had a warning when the battery might fail.
>>>> It's simple but they don't have it.
>>>
>>> Not a problem with todays PC's. The battery will last longer than the
>>> computah, especially the Apple MacBook batteries that are glued into
>>> the case. See:
>>> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>
>>> Your computah has a factory controlled lifetime of exactly 5.0 years
>>> except in California, where it's 7 years. Microsoft is following
>>> Apple's lead and going to a subscription model for Windoze. Kinda
>>> makes Linux look more appealing. Think of this as a giant step
>>> backwards for landfill and eWaste reduction. Worrying about tossing a
>>> cheap battery is minor compared to toss the entire computah.
>>>
>>
>> I do not subscribe to that concept and generally use computers for 10
>> years or more. Until something literally falls off. So I do occasionally
>> have the things act up because the coin cell ran out. Since PCs have no
>> indicator for that all one can see is that the clock begins to lag. Then
>> it's the white knuckle thing, changing it out while the PC is running.
>>

> Install Network Time Protocol (NTP) - it's even available as a windows
> binary wrapped in an installer.

The RTC is not the only thing that the battery is used for. Often when
the battery dies the BIOS will complain that an error occurred and
defaults will be used.

But they are easy to replace. I don't know why Joerg wants to replace
the battery with the PC running. It seems he likes taking the difficult
route and making mountains from mole hills. I talked my Mother through
the battery replacement not so long ago. First time for her even
opening the case. No issues, and BIOS error message fixed.

--
JS

[avag...@gmail.com]

WAZZIT READ at the anti freeze rack ?

[Joerg]

It's because else I'd have to make a lot of hand entries and that day
was full. I simply did not have the room for PC downtime. So I removed
my wristwatch, taped a cloth over the circuitry below the battery,
popped it out, new battery in, done.

[avag...@gmail.com]

why use a wireless cyclometer ?

[John B.]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:55:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

I didn't stop to check. It is sort of a bad place to stop and check
things. A four lane bridge and no shoulders, just a railing so you
don't fall off :-). I don't believe that a cadence meter - different
manufacturer - that I have on the bike, did change, or at least I
didn't notice it changing.

>>It is
>>a funny spot. Down a long straight and then up and over a bridge
>>across a canal and suddenly, on the way down the other side you are
>>doing 50 kph :-) The road is about second story height and there isn't
>>anything closer than, say 30 yards,
>
>Lat-Long for a look with Google Earth? 360 panorama photo?
>Any antennas visible on the bridge or nearby buildings?
>
>Got a portable radio scanner? Tune it to 433.925MHz. If possible use
>AM not FM demodulation. Check if it hears anything besides home
>weather stations and and such.
>
>>Probably either ghosts or aliens :-)
>
>Any sufficiently advanced cycling problem is indistinguishable from
>magic, ghosts, and aliens. However, you are using the correct
>approach. A suitable culprit must be selected before a problem can be
>solved.

What I shall do it recite a short prayer just before I start onto the
bridge and if the meter doesn't change it will be proof positive that
it is either a ghost, or a Spirit - here practically everything has a
resident spirit and failure to properly appease them can result in
terrible bad luck.... or perhaps it is the bicycle that requires some
sort of special treatment. Maybe a sprinkling with "Holy Water" each
morning before riding.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:57:36 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>why use a wireless cyclometer ?

Because the American public has an inexplicable fear of wires and
cables. Just look at any sales literature that illustrates computers,
hi-fi, or TV hardware, and you'll notice that all the power and signal
wires are Photoshopped out of the pictures. See any wires?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desktop+computer&tbm=isch>
Well, there are few keyboard and mouse wires, but I think those were
accidental. Showing an ugly tangle of wires with a product is
guaranteed to turn off the typical buyer. For bicycle computahs,
buyers want sleek, aerodynamic, ergonomic, elegant, stylish, and neat
devices, not a blob of wires and ty-wraps all over the forks and
handlebars. Wireless offers all that.

[David Scheidt]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
:On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:11:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
:wrote:

:>On 2015-06-13 4:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
:>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 16:06:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
:>> wrote:
:>>
:>>> Got a Cateye Padrone speedometer on my MTB. I noticed the little letters
:>>> "mph" under the indicate speed are flashing. Not sure whether they
:>>> always did, maybe they did. Anyhow, does someone know how these
:>>> speedometers indicate a low battery warning or whether they do that at all?
:>>
:>> Perhaps you could remove the batteries and measure the terminal
:>> voltage with a voltmeter? CR2032 battery. 3.1v to 3.2v when new. I
:>> replace them in computahs when under 2.9v.

:>That is very wasteful, like taking two bites out of each apple and then
:>throwing it away. Discharge is spec'd down to 2V on CR2032 batteries and
:>I design my electronics accordingly, hoping that others also do that.

:Very true. However, there are some reasons that I replace the battery
:prematurely. See:
:<http://amichalec.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rainbow-pingpong-cr2032-maxell.png>
:<http://datasheet.octopart.com/CR3032-Panasonic-datasheet-9712031.pdf>
:The inside of the computah tends to be rather warm. Follow the 60C
:line to where it starts to plunge. I would call it 2.8v on the graph.
:Once the terminal voltage gets anywhere near the knee, it will drop
:rather quickly towards zero. I've run some curves on the cheap CR2032
:batteries I've been buying on eBay. They suck, usually with a very
:rounded knee. I don't know exactly at what voltage the clock/cmos
:craps out. I do know that it varies substantially from computah to
:computah. I also know that on the way down, some computahs go insane
:when the battery voltage is within the "marginal" window.

About 16 or 17 years ago, I was on a plane, trying to use my HP
calculator to do some work. The batteries were dead. The guy next to
me saw I needed lr44s, and gave me a bunch. Unbranded, in little
blister packs like pils. He said they imported them by the barrel for
whatever little gadgets they sold. He gave me several dozen, but they
all sucked -- about a day's real usage each set. I tossed them after
a couple days, and bought some proper cells, which lasted a year or so
a set.

lr44s are alkaline, not lithium, but I suspect they had bad anodes,
and high internal resistance.

--
sig 121

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-15 4:57 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> why use a wireless cyclometer ?
>

Like I wrote, because of flying rocks, bushes, twigs, crashes and so on.
A wired speedometer on a mountain bike would not survive its first month
out here. Sometimes rocks the size of a fist fly off and smash into the
fork, the lower tube, my shins, and so on.

On the road bike I have a wired version, of course. If I ever buy a new
one it'll be cyclocross and that would probably need wireless as well.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://media.cagle.com/95/2015/04/06/162258_600.jpg

[James]

The battery isn't in use while the machine is running.

--
JS

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 07:02:33 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:55:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>So, what happens when you stop? Does it still show 50 km/hr when
>>you're NOT moving? Do other brands of wireless bicycle computer do
>>the same thing?

>I didn't stop to check. It is sort of a bad place to stop and check
>things. A four lane bridge and no shoulders, just a railing so you
>don't fall off :-).

Well, OK. It's not necessary to risk your life for this test. Just
remember that you have only one life to give for progress in bicycle
technology.

>I don't believe that a cadence meter - different
>manufacturer - that I have on the bike, did change, or at least I
>didn't notice it changing.

Was it also wireless? If so, were they on the same frequency? Could
it be possible that the cadence meter and wireless bicycle computah
were mutually interfering with each other?

>What I shall do it recite a short prayer just before I start onto the
>bridge and if the meter doesn't change it will be proof positive that
>it is either a ghost, or a Spirit - here practically everything has a
>resident spirit and failure to properly appease them can result in
>terrible bad luck.... or perhaps it is the bicycle that requires some
>sort of special treatment. Maybe a sprinkling with "Holy Water" each
>morning before riding.

I don't think that will be necessary. You are already crossing over
running water, which is a known defense against evil spirits and all
things occult or supernatural. Well, at least it works for headless
horsemen. You can test its effectiveness by inviting a headless
bicyclist to chase you and see if the running water stops them.

Wearing a clove of garlic has also been known to help.

Appeasing the bicycle gods is normally done with burnt offerings. I've
successfully performed the rites of computah board immolation on the
hibachi when I can't seem to fix something. The rising smoke is
apparently pleasing to the computah gods, although it makes me cough
and my eyes burn. It's much the same with appeasing the bicycle gods,
except that there's little on a bicycle that will burn. Maybe torch
an old saddle or some handlebar tape. Burning rubber tires probably
won't work. This might explain why cycling gods seem to always be
rather irritable.

The medicinal benefits of holy water have been debated for 1000 years
with little progress towards an acceptable consensus. I suppose it's
worth a try. However, I suspect that a bottle of champagne or other
booze might be more effective. It's known to bring good fortune after
a ship launching and might just work for a bicycle exorcism.
<http://mentalfloss.com/article/12612/why-are-bottles-champagne-smashed-new-ships>
Careful that you don't dent the frame.

To the best of my limited knowledge, the only effective cure for
occult possession of a bicycle computah is to sacrifice a virgin. The
problem is finding one.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 00:10:00 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

>About 16 or 17 years ago, I was on a plane, trying to use my HP
>calculator to do some work. The batteries were dead. The guy next to
>me saw I needed lr44s, and gave me a bunch. Unbranded, in little
>blister packs like pils. He said they imported them by the barrel for
>whatever little gadgets they sold. He gave me several dozen, but they
>all sucked -- about a day's real usage each set. I tossed them after
>a couple days, and bought some proper cells, which lasted a year or so
>a set.
>
>lr44s are alkaline, not lithium, but I suspect they had bad anodes,
>and high internal resistance.

Ummm... you don't want to use lithium, which are 3.0v cells instead of
1.35v or 1.5v cells. Install two lithium cells with the correct
physical size (CR927) and you will have a very dead calculator.

In the mid 1990's, if they sucked power that badly, and used three A76
cells, my guess(tm) would be an HP32S or HP42S.

Your unspecified HP calculator model probably craps out when the
voltage drops below about 1.25VDC per cell. For an alkaline LR44
cell, that's approximately at 50% of cell capacity.

Although HP specifies alkaline LR44 batteries, what you really should
be using are SR44 silver oxide cells, which reach 1.3VDC after about
95% of cell's power has been discharged.

Note the flat discharge curve and higher voltage for the SR44, and the
downward slope and lower voltage for the LR44.
<http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/005/005yPR-14420784.gif>

I've been buying both LR44 and SR44 cells on eBay. What I do is buy a
small number of cells from a specific vendor, and test them. If
they're tolerable, or under miraculous circumstances actually meet the
specs, then I buy about 100 at a time. I got lucky with the SR44
cells, where I found all good cells. Not so luck with the LR44, where
it took 4 tries to find some decent cells. Caveat Emptor.

The same problem is illustrated in this article on electronic digital
calipers, which have the same battery problem:
<http://www.fliptronics.com/tip0006.html>
I now use mostly SR44 sliver oxide cells.

Incidentally, I collect LED HP calculators. These photos are really
old. I think I now have about 70 assorted HP calculators:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/hp-calc/index.html>
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/hp65/index.html>

[Sir Ridesalot]

Chased down a bicyclist the other night and cut him off. I told him his seat bag was on fire. That's where he kept his Lion battery which apparently shoted or something.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/15/2015 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> What I shall do it recite a short prayer just before I start onto the
> bridge and if the meter doesn't change it will be proof positive that
> it is either a ghost, or a Spirit - here practically everything has a
> resident spirit and failure to properly appease them can result in
> terrible bad luck.... or perhaps it is the bicycle that requires some
> sort of special treatment. Maybe a sprinkling with "Holy Water" each
> morning before riding.

Hmm. You might have to work your way through the tenets of all the
world's religions to find the right technique. That could take some time!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/15/2015 10:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>
> Incidentally, I collect LED HP calculators. These photos are really
> old. I think I now have about 70 assorted HP calculators:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/hp-calc/index.html>
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/hp65/index.html>

Too bad you didn't post this a couple years ago. That's when I gave
away a nice HP65!

I like my (now old) 48G, but my favorite was my HP11C. It disappeared
along with my soft bike commuting briefcase at one place I worked.

The cleaning guy who (almost certainly) stole it probably thought the
briefcase contained a laptop he could sell. Instead he got a calculator
he probably couldn't figure out how to use.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 18:56:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 07:02:33 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:55:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>>So, what happens when you stop? Does it still show 50 km/hr when
>>>you're NOT moving? Do other brands of wireless bicycle computer do
>>>the same thing?
>
>>I didn't stop to check. It is sort of a bad place to stop and check
>>things. A four lane bridge and no shoulders, just a railing so you
>>don't fall off :-).
>
>Well, OK. It's not necessary to risk your life for this test. Just
>remember that you have only one life to give for progress in bicycle
>technology.
>

Ah, but I've noticed that in blood and thunder novels that the hero
never dies... I'm trying to emulate that achievement :-)

>>I don't believe that a cadence meter - different
>>manufacturer - that I have on the bike, did change, or at least I
>>didn't notice it changing.
>
>Was it also wireless? If so, were they on the same frequency? Could
>it be possible that the cadence meter and wireless bicycle computah
>were mutually interfering with each other?
>

Yup, both wireless, but different makes, the theory being that
different makers may be using different frequencies. In any event they
do not interfere with each other so I guess that they really do speak
different languages.

>>What I shall do it recite a short prayer just before I start onto the
>>bridge and if the meter doesn't change it will be proof positive that
>>it is either a ghost, or a Spirit - here practically everything has a
>>resident spirit and failure to properly appease them can result in
>>terrible bad luck.... or perhaps it is the bicycle that requires some
>>sort of special treatment. Maybe a sprinkling with "Holy Water" each
>>morning before riding.
>
>I don't think that will be necessary. You are already crossing over
>running water, which is a known defense against evil spirits and all
>things occult or supernatural. Well, at least it works for headless
>horsemen. You can test its effectiveness by inviting a headless
>bicyclist to chase you and see if the running water stops them.
>
>Wearing a clove of garlic has also been known to help.
>
>Appeasing the bicycle gods is normally done with burnt offerings. I've
>successfully performed the rites of computah board immolation on the
>hibachi when I can't seem to fix something. The rising smoke is
>apparently pleasing to the computah gods, although it makes me cough
>and my eyes burn. It's much the same with appeasing the bicycle gods,
>except that there's little on a bicycle that will burn. Maybe torch
>an old saddle or some handlebar tape. Burning rubber tires probably
>won't work. This might explain why cycling gods seem to always be
>rather irritable.
>

Yes, I've heard of the magic smoke that makes electrical/electronic
things work and I've been told that positive, and repeatable, evidence
is that when the smoke comes out that the object ceases to work, which
of course meets all standards for scientific proof.

>The medicinal benefits of holy water have been debated for 1000 years
>with little progress towards an acceptable consensus. I suppose it's
>worth a try. However, I suspect that a bottle of champagne or other
>booze might be more effective. It's known to bring good fortune after
>a ship launching and might just work for a bicycle exorcism.
><http://mentalfloss.com/article/12612/why-are-bottles-champagne-smashed-new-ships>
>Careful that you don't dent the frame.
>

You don't have to smash a bottle full, you can just sprinkle it or
even use a thing like "whisk" and sort of shake it on.

>To the best of my limited knowledge, the only effective cure for
>occult possession of a bicycle computah is to sacrifice a virgin. The
>problem is finding one.

Didn't your elders ever tell you, "Waste not, want not"?
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 6/15/2015 6:57 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> why use a wireless cyclometer ?
>

Because the only common failure on modern Cateye are broken
wires. I can't speak to other brands.

[Joerg]

I know, but you have to make sure it can't fall into circuitry and ...
bzzzt ... *PHUT*

[James]

On 17/06/15 16:30, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Mon, 15 Jun 2015

> 12:04:46 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 2015-06-15 11:49 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> considered Sun, 14 Jun 2015
>>> 20:14:50 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:38:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>>> I've wondered about rigging up some sort of extension antenna, etc. to
>>>>> improve the signal strength or radio connection, but I know almost
>>>>> nothing about antenna design.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that can be done at the risk of either generating more
>>>> interference to others at the transmitter end, or picking up more
>>>> interference at the receiver end. Careful what you wish for.
>>>
>>> Any way of "piping" the signal, or making it more directional?
>>
>>
>> At 433MHz the antenna geometry would be prohibitively large. Sometimes a
>> snippet of wire can work as an RF conduit but that's more hit and miss
>> and then you might as well us a wired system.
>
> Well, for most things. Obviously not an HRM strap.

Most of the wireless sensors that talk to a bicycle computer are similar
in size to a HRM strap. I suspect most use RF in the GHz range. About
2.4GHz is popular.

--
JS

[avag...@gmail.com]

we were waiting for your reply

thanks

https://goo.gl/CntbMr

we begin the day with a touch of sanity

onward

we have the Coon Roaster relay board on the ceiling waiting for 10Ga

[avag...@gmail.com]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZick


A question for the EEE here !

If an auto batt rates at 12.6 volts and my alternator gives 13.2
What does a 12Volt device ask for auto use age ?

The air pump....the common air pump asks for 12V warning for no more...so is that 12V or 13.2 V or 12.6 V ?

Do we replace all 12V requirements with 12.6 or 13.2 and walk or not !

With aux lights there's a wire run loss

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

from

http://www.powerstream.com/tech.html

from by Leib.

Hella sez: A 10% drop in voltage (1.2V) equals 33% drop in light output !!

So are we dropping from 12V in reality ignored 12.6 or 13.2 ! or from 12V...

Aiaiiaiieieiiekakka !!!!!!!!!!!!.!

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 5:03:12 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/15/2015 10:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 07:42:43 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 2015-06-14 10:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I've liked Volvo to keep my family safe since the big bumper models. But the first thing I used to do with a new one, right on the showroom floor, is cut the throat of that insistent bitch with the grating voice telling me to close the door, fasten my seatbelt, zip up my fly... I'd turn up with my Knipex, trace the wire, and snip it. It is not enough to pull the fuse, as some under-communicated mechanic will "helpfully" replace it at ever service.

It's when you start talking back to your car that you know it is time to change your therapist...

Andre Jute

[avag...@gmail.com]

Andre, A FAMILY ? GOTTA PHOTO ?

https://plus.google.com/photos/102234459580640424681/albums/6161386166961476625?banner=pwa

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-16 11:30 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Mon, 15 Jun 2015
> 12:04:46 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 2015-06-15 11:49 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> considered Sun, 14 Jun 2015
>>> 20:14:50 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:38:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>>> I've wondered about rigging up some sort of extension antenna, etc. to
>>>>> improve the signal strength or radio connection, but I know almost
>>>>> nothing about antenna design.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that can be done at the risk of either generating more
>>>> interference to others at the transmitter end, or picking up more
>>>> interference at the receiver end. Careful what you wish for.
>>>
>>> Any way of "piping" the signal, or making it more directional?
>>
>>
>> At 433MHz the antenna geometry would be prohibitively large. Sometimes a
>> snippet of wire can work as an RF conduit but that's more hit and miss
>> and then you might as well us a wired system.
>
> Well, for most things. Obviously not an HRM strap.
>>
>>>>

>>>> Note that the devices I've seen do not have any way of "pairing" the
>>>> transmitter and receiver, as one would do with a Bluetooth devices.
>>>> The transmitter simply sends a burst of data every time the wheel goes
>>>> around and the receiver responds to the data. If there's a similar
>>>> transmitter nearby, it will also respond to it if the receiver had
>>>> sufficient sensitivity, which it fortunately it does NOT.
>>>
>>> Both the wireless computers I've used needed to be paired.
>>> One of them can be paired with two sets of sensors, and automagically
>>> switches between settings for wheel circumference, total distance, etc
>>> when you move it between the respective bikes and it detects the
>>> "other" set of sensors waking up when triggered by movement. The
>>> second set were an option, so I needed to pair them with the computer
>>> myself (as I did with the HRM strap).
>>> I'd assumed that they all needed that, but maybe not at the cheapest
>>> end of the market. I know some are now using Bluetooth, so those must
>>> need pairing.
>>> I very much doubt if anything would be useable in a pro peloton if it
>>> didn't need to be paired, as the overlap between riders would mean
>>> that a cadence or power sensor on an adjacent bike could often be
>>> closer than the one on your own.
>>> Of course, any weak signal can simply be drowned out by too much
>>> interference.
>>
>>
>> That's the point. If you are riding in a huge cacophony of other 433MHz
>> transmitters which use the same frequency then all the code-pairing
>> won't help. The RF link becomes like trying to hold a phone conversation
>> next to a Harley-Davidson. Bluetooth is easier, more available spectrum.
>
> It shouldn't be too huge a cacophony, as the signal strength drops off
> on the inverse square law, doesn't it? ...


In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. Things like handle bars, brake
cables, shifter cables, rim brakes, spokes, rims and stuff spoil the
math here.

It's like an EMC job. You move a small piece of metal by a mere 2" and
there is a huge change in RF footprint. That can drive rookie engineers
up the wall.


> ... So I wouldn't expect more than
> about a dozen in range at any one time, and the signals you want would
> always be in the top 3 or so for strength. To be closer, another bike
> would need to be hard alongside, with his cadence sensor (for example)
> dead level with your computer. So simply throwing away signals
> without the right code key should be perfectly workable, especially if
> the codes contain a (relative, not real) timestamp and get to be
> resent if necessary in a similar way to ethernet type CDMA protocols.


It works, as long as there isn't a coincidence where two or more
transmitters broadcast at same frequency and same time. Not always a
trivial problem, one of my job facets is to get low power mote systems
and repeater system going.

>>
>> On a road bike I'd go with wired systems except for functions where that
>> isn't practical such as human body sensors. I only have a wireless
>> version on my MTB because any cables would be smashed and torn by rock
>> hits, branches and other flying stuff. Or the occasional crash although
>> I didn't have one in about 10 months now.
>>
>> [...]
>
> I thought all the pro teams used wireless systems, bicbw.
>

Maybe because the cable weighs one gram more and its wind resistance
costs 1/100th of a second in penalty :-)

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-16 11:54 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Tue, 16 Jun 2015

> You do that with a blob of blu-tack on the end of a small screwdriver*
> if the space you have to get through is between two cards and narrow,
> or with a bit of sticky tape on the end of a finger if you can reach
> it more easily.
> Reassembly, as they say in the manuals, is the reverse of removal :-)
>

Sure, but that doesn't really work when the battery holder is a
slide-out type.


> *make certain the screwdriver is de-greased first, or you'll leave the
> blu-tack on the battery when you try to pull the battery out. An
> alcohol wipe is fine for this.
> Back in the dim & distant, when I did PC tech support (and 10base2 was
> a fast LAN), I always had a lump of blu-tack in my pocket toolkit.
>

I usually don't have any tack here so I use Homax and let it dry. Works,
but only in cases where the battery back is fairly "naked".

[AMuzi]

On 6/17/2015 11:46 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Andre, A FAMILY ? GOTTA PHOTO ?
>
> https://plus.google.com/photos/102234459580640424681/albums/6161386166961476625?banner=pwa
>

Hey Gene is your sister out yet?

https://oscarherradon.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mansonfamily1.jpg

[avag...@gmail.com]

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

giveumsome cocaine no tellin what they'll do


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCoKGgED5IE

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 6:43:41 PM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 1:26:09 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 6/17/2015 11:46 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Andre, A FAMILY ? GOTTA PHOTO ?
> > >
> > > https://plus.google.com/photos/102234459580640424681/albums/6161386166961476625?banner=pwa
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hey Gene is your sister out yet?
> >
> > https://oscarherradon.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mansonfamily1.jpg
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

whoooops !!!!!!!!

giveumsome cocaine no tellin what they'll do !!!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCoKGgED5IE

search: lyrics cocaine blues

[avag...@gmail.com]

my reactions to Manson et al are deeply negative.

Tho somewhat on the same level as killing off the Kalahari Bushmen... we're not pinning that on Andre* !!!!

is the young Manson ID'd as the young Muzi ?

Bruno has a fillup in Bruneau Canyon in The Sierra Club Guide To ...
For his attendances at the USGP. He's derusted. I may have a trip to Sweden for parts. My mother made the King a birthday cake.

I spilled Wild Oats basil tomato soup with garbanzo beans on my lap.

I am beset with fairies all day...and when I went back to Van Ronk, Utube was gobbling up my bytes n Dave started in on me abt seeing me on the ferry.....

Oats is sold at Wal here. Go buy some. AAA dinner starter. The Tomato is gourmand.

*Or maybe we will....its viral.

[avag...@gmail.com]

........................

epidemic

http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/woman-steals-from-west-wichita-store-leaves-grandson-behind/33628862

[AMuzi]

Reminds me of one of history's all time best lyrics:

She went to see the King of Sweden
He gave her things that she was needin'.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I have a photo of the cake abt 6' across with a Viking ship coming across the top....Mom did the ship.

I see there's a shootemup on SC.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 19:49:22 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

Sorry for the delayed response. I was busy making a fool of myself in
other newsgroups.

>Any way of "piping" the signal, or making it more directional?

Yes, but it's not really practical. The problem is that direction
antennas tend to be big. The rule of thumb for antennas is something
like "Small, wide bandwidth, gain... pick any two". Most of the
cycling computahs that I've seen use the cheapest possible antennas,
which is either a "meandering line" 1/4 wave radiator etched into the
PCB (printed circuit board), or a high dielectric chip antenna, which
has the added advantage of small size.

Assortment of typical 900/2400/5600MHz ISM antennas:
<http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra161b/swra161b.pdf>
<http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra351a/swra351a.pdf>

Some cycle computahs seem to have firmware that will detect a "missing
pulse". The periodic rotation of the front wheel, is expected to
produce equally periodic pulses from the magnetic sensor. If an
expected pulse does not appear within the predicted time window, the
firmware simply supplies the missing pulse. This is very useful for
reducing the effects of interference from other bicycle computer
transmitters, as well as drive-by noise sources. It's not a total
solution, but it's good enough so that there's little incentive for
adding directional antennas or other exotic/expensive/unreliable
solutions.

My guess(tm) is that the next generation of bicycle computahs will use
60 GHz radios. Yes, that's 10 times the frequency of 5GHz wi-fi. The
advantage of 60 GHz is atmospheric oxygen absorption, which
drastically reduces range. For very short range devices (mice,
keyboards, TV video, wireless hard disks, etc) it works quite well
because there's little oxygen in the way. However, try to communicate
any distance, and the added oxygen absorption will kill the signal
very quickly.
<http://www.rfglobalnet.com/doc/fixed-wireless-communications-at-60ghz-unique-0001>
The only downside I can conjure is that rain and fog also add
attenuation, which might make it difficult to control the maximum
range.

The classic complain about wired bicycle computahs is the messy
wiring. I think this is a valid complaint as I've seen a few wired
cycling computers with obvious splice and patch jobs to the wiring.
While I think wireless is a good solution, it's also possible to do
something to improve the wiring. I've experimented with flat ribbon
cable taped to the forks and tubes. Plenty of types and styles to
choose from:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=flat+ribbon+cable&tbm=isch>
The problem is what does one do about the rotating joint at the head
tube? Slip rings will get dirty and are noisy. A large loop of wire
will snag. The best I've done so far is to follow the front brake
cable directly to the handlebar and bypass the head tube problem. My
prototype is just a ribbon cable either glued to the brake cables, or
held in place by a long clear shrink tube. I haven't tried it with
aero bars yet.

>Both the wireless computers I've used needed to be paired.

Those are the better devices. Most of the 915MHz devices don't
require pairing.

>One of them can be paired with two sets of sensors, and automagically
>switches between settings for wheel circumference, total distance, etc
>when you move it between the respective bikes and it detects the
>"other" set of sensors waking up when triggered by movement. The
>second set were an option, so I needed to pair them with the computer
>myself (as I did with the HRM strap).
>I'd assumed that they all needed that, but maybe not at the cheapest
>end of the market.

Kinda sounds like an ANT+ system.
<http://www.thisisant.com>

>I know some are now using Bluetooth, so those must
>need pairing.

BTLE (Bluegoof Low Energy) is the current hot ticket. With frequency
hopping spread spectrum, a fair number of devices can be used
simultaneously in the same "air space" without interference. Chips
are available with extremely low power drain and long battery life.
Running on 2.4GHz, antennas are easier to build and range easier to
control. Since the sensor can both receive and transmit, the RF power
can easily be automatically be adjusted for minimum RF levels, and
therefore minimum interference.

>I very much doubt if anything would be useable in a pro peloton if it
>didn't need to be paired, as the overlap between riders would mean
>that a cadence or power sensor on an adjacent bike could often be
>closer than the one on your own.

I beg to differ. Spread spectrum will allow mutual coexistence
without data loss. A coffee shop full of wi-fi devices should be a
clue that multiple radios can coexist[1].

Much depends on the protocol that is used. Anything is better than a
single RF belch from the cheap 915 MHz devices. With BTLE, redundancy
and error correction can be used to improve reliability. For long
term outages, the sensors can store a few minutes of data, until the
receiver comes within range again. That should be hand for battery
changes without data collection losses. In any case, if the user
expects accuracy and reliability, he communications should be
bi-directional.

>Of course, any weak signal can simply be drowned out by too much
>interference.

True, but bi-directional devices can detect collisions and
interference. They then retransmit the lost packets after a
randomized delay. That's built into Wi-Fi, BT, and BTLE. With BTLE,
I think there are a few million available hopping codes. All that
additional spread spectrum sources do is increase the base line noise
level.


[1] BTLE uses FHSS (frequency hopping spread spectrum], while wi-fi
uses DSSS (direct sequence spread spectrum). Their interference
rejection abilities are quite different. Also, they assume that
everything around is either FHSS or DSSS. If mixed, DSSS usually
wins. Details if you want them.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 2:21:47 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>
> The classic complain about wired bicycle computahs is the messy
> wiring. I think this is a valid complaint as I've seen a few wired
> cycling computers with obvious splice and patch jobs to the wiring.
> While I think wireless is a good solution, it's also possible to do
> something to improve the wiring. I've experimented with flat ribbon
> cable taped to the forks and tubes. Plenty of types and styles to
> choose from:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=flat+ribbon+cable&tbm=isch>
> The problem is what does one do about the rotating joint at the head
> tube? Slip rings will get dirty and are noisy. A large loop of wire
> will snag. The best I've done so far is to follow the front brake
> cable directly to the handlebar and bypass the head tube problem. My
> prototype is just a ribbon cable either glued to the brake cables, or
> held in place by a long clear shrink tube. I haven't tried it with
> aero bars yet.
>

>

> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

The neatest thing I saw on a wired bicycle computer was done with one that had the twin wires on it rather than the more common coaxial type of wire. The guy had a hollow stem binder bolt and had run his wire down the stem binder bolt and out the bottom of the fork to the sensor located near the top of the fork leg. I wondered if he bought the stem bolt like that or if he had it drilled out by some shop?

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/18/2015 2:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2015 19:49:22 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Any way of "piping" the signal, or making it more directional?
>
> Yes, but it's not really practical. The problem is that direction
> antennas tend to be big. The rule of thumb for antennas is something
> like "Small, wide bandwidth, gain... pick any two". Most of the
> cycling computahs that I've seen use the cheapest possible antennas,
> which is either a "meandering line" 1/4 wave radiator etched into the
> PCB (printed circuit board), or a high dielectric chip antenna, which
> has the added advantage of small size.

My problem again is the computer not receiving a wireless signal below
40 Fahrenheit unless I move the computer much closer to the sender.
It's on a small wheel folding bike.

I've wondered about somehow extending the antenna on either the sender
or the receiver. (I don't want to hard wire a computer because folding
removes the bars and tall stem from the bike.) In my case, all that's
being transmitted is a pulse, so it's not a matter of fidelity.

And I know that extending antennas can work. One weird trick I use all
the time involves our automatic garage door opener. The radio sending
unit inside our house is pretty marginal about triggering the door to
open; but if I touch the sending unit to my chin, it works every time.
I've done the same to extend the range of a remote car door unlocking
control. My understanding is that the brain (or really, the water
content of the brain) acts as an extended antenna.

Hmm. I'll have to try that with a jug of water.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/18/2015 4:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> The neatest thing I saw on a wired bicycle computer was done with one that had the twin wires on it rather than the more common coaxial type of wire. The guy had a hollow stem binder bolt and had run his wire down the stem binder bolt and out the bottom of the fork to the sensor located near the top of the fork leg. I wondered if he bought the stem bolt like that or if he had it drilled out by some shop?

I'd be very wary about drilling out an important bolt like that. My
most weight-weenie friend drilled out the (single) bolt holding his
saddle to his seatpost. He was about 50 miles from home when it
suddenly failed. It caused considerable concern, and that bolt's not
as important as a stem bolt.

In his case, he was lucky that another rider was able to fit a "good
enough for now" replacement.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

Hollow stem binder bolts are made for BMX bikes.

Quote from a site that sells them:

"Action Expander Bolt & Nuts - Freestyle/BMX, Long hollow bolt fits through the center of quill stems to tighten wedges, allows tangle free front brake cable routing. Hex Head 160mm each."

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

trivial

[James]

If it was an Ahead stem, the centre bolt is really only used to set the
bearing preload. It should be the stem clamp bolts that stop the stem
from moving.

--
JS

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 01:17:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/15/2015 10:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Incidentally, I collect LED HP calculators. These photos are really
>> old. I think I now have about 70 assorted HP calculators:
>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/hp-calc/index.html>
>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/hp65/index.html>
>
>Too bad you didn't post this a couple years ago. That's when I gave
>away a nice HP65!

I did. The photos were moved from another site in about 2007. I
found some notes from 1999, which is roughly when I first posted the
photos. I've done about 6 assorted HP65 rebuilds so far. You should
have kept the HP65. It was a good machine.

What you really want is an HP67CX Linux calculator:
<http://www.hpmuseum.org/item/product2.htm>
Unfortunately, it was a 2002 April Fools joke:
<http://www.hpmuseum.org/item/product.htm>
I wanted one. Sniff.

The big problem I have with the really old 0.3" LED display
calculators is that I can't really see the display without carefully
selecting my glasses and distance. So, I've put all my LED machines
aside and switched to more visible LCD displays. I've also had to do
the same with my favorite tiny display bicycle computahs, and switched
to a (name forgotten) large screen display bicycle computah. Maybe my
next model will have a projection display, that paint the screen on
the pavement or the back of the rider that's in front of me.

>I like my (now old) 48G, but my favorite was my HP11C. It disappeared
>along with my soft bike commuting briefcase at one place I worked.

I have about 3ea HP48G/48GX calculators. Only one works. The
keyboard has problems on the other two and I'm too busy (lazy) to fix
them. I also have an HP11C (scientific) as well as the matching HP12C
(financial) and HP16C (computah).

>The cleaning guy who (almost certainly) stole it probably thought the
>briefcase contained a laptop he could sell. Instead he got a calculator
>he probably couldn't figure out how to use.

I lost a few that way. I also set some bait and traps which caught
some rather "interesting" people pilfering the engineering lab. It
was never the janitor or cleaning service.

I'll throw all the assorted calculators in the office, house, and car
and take some new photos. Might was well also take inventory.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:51:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>My problem again is the computer not receiving a wireless signal below
>40 Fahrenheit unless I move the computer much closer to the sender.
>It's on a small wheel folding bike.

The most likely culprit is a lousy design which is not easily
repairable. It might be a defective chip, where you can replace just
the transmitter or the receiver/display. Put each one in the fridge
for a while and see if that identifies which end is failing. Work
quickly or you'll end up with condensation on the PCB (printed circuit
board).

You can also make life difficult for the device if you mount the
transmitter and recevier on opposite sides of a frame tube. Also,
play with the orientation of both ends. The signal levels are not
perfectly hemispherical.

For additional amusement, put the wheel on a stand and spin it to get
the transmitter to function. Then walk away from the bicycle holding
the receiver/display. Measure the range where it quits at different
points around the bicycle. If you magically get normal range with the
receiver/display dismounted during this test, then something is wrong
with your mounting arrangement.

>I've wondered about somehow extending the antenna on either the sender
>or the receiver.

At 915 MHz, the antenna is most likely just a coil on the PCB, also
known as a helical antenna. It's main benefit is that it's cheap. You
can remove it, and simply connect a 1/4 wave monopole (single wire)
antenna to where it connected to the radio chip. Extra points for
using two opposing 1/4 wave monopoles to form a dipole antenna.
Unfortunately, the radio police will cite you for modifying FCC
certified and approved radio equipment.

>(I don't want to hard wire a computer because folding
>removes the bars and tall stem from the bike.) In my case, all that's
>being transmitted is a pulse, so it's not a matter of fidelity.

Good reason. I could probably contrive a solution that uses a
magnetically lateched connector at the stem. If you forget to
disconnect it before folding, the connector won't be destroyed.

>And I know that extending antennas can work. One weird trick I use all
>the time involves our automatic garage door opener. The radio sending
>unit inside our house is pretty marginal about triggering the door to
>open; but if I touch the sending unit to my chin, it works every time.
>I've done the same to extend the range of a remote car door unlocking
>control. My understanding is that the brain (or really, the water
>content of the brain) acts as an extended antenna.

Yep. Bigger antennas aren't always better, but in many cases, they do
help. Feel like ripping your transmitter or receiver apart, taking a
few photos, posting them, and then making some modifications? It's a
bit risky because I usually use a pile of test equipment to see if I'm
making an improvement, or making things worse.

>Hmm. I'll have to try that with a jug of water.

Sigh. Find some insulated wire. Wrap a random amount around the
transmitter and/or receiver, with approximately 8.2 cm (1/4 wave at
915Mhz) sticking straight out and away from the device. The random
winding around the device is actually a capacitor that tries to catch
as much of the RF as possible. You can also get fancy and use two
8.2cm monopoles pointing away from each other to form a really awful
dipole. Just keep the wires away from the forks and handlebars.

No warranty on whether this is going to work, but it's easy enough to
try.

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:51:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> The radio sending
> unit inside our house is pretty marginal about triggering the door to
> open; but if I touch the sending unit to my chin, it works every time.

When I was a child, listening to Superman on the cathedral radio, the
stations came in louder if I held the copper-wire antenna in my hand.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

[Sir Ridesalot]

Some bicycle computers have two wires that run parallel to each other. That's the type I saw on the hollow stem binder bolt bike. With a twin wire system like that Frank could cut the wires near the computer mount and again near the sensor and then add quick connecters to them. It'd then be a simple matter to remove the middle run of wire for transporting the folding bike.

Cheers

[Andre Jute]

What's so "important" about the binder bolt, Franki-boy? Are you sure you understand what function the components perform in a modern bicycle? (Wikipedia seems to be your speed. Or you could step up to Sheldon Brown's site, which uses simple language. Whichever you choose, pay close attention as confusion between quill and ahead stems can cause painful incidents which is what serious cyclists call "accidents".) On a modern Ahead system, the binder bolt is used only to set the bearing preload in a static bike. Dynamically, the important bolt is the one that ties the stem to the steerer, which acts as a collar to lock the system into place. After that the binder bolt is irrelevant in an Ahead system. Conclusion: it makes no difference if it is hollow, just as long as it is strong enough to set the preload.

Andre Jute
Not that I expect to be thanked graciously for helping out this Krygowski klown.

[Sir Ridesalot]

But I was talking about a hollow stem binder bolt on a quill stem on a road bike. The guy ran his wire through the stem bolt and out the bottom of the fork to the top of the fork leg. It was very neat looking with hardly any wire exposed.

Cheers

[Andre Jute]

Sure thing, Ridealot. But we should have the difference between quill and ahead stems on the table. We don't want stick-in-the-mud luddites like Franki-boy Krygowski dangerously confusing newbies with his ignorance.

I'm actually big on bored-out bolts, especially when they're in the unsuspended end of suspension parts on racing cars where grammes count (but we don't need to go there in a cycling conference), and I don't think well-designed and executed boring is dangerous on bicycles, as most of the mechanical value of any bolt -- any tube for that matter -- is found nearest the surface. That is why bicycle frames are built from thinwall tubes rather than solid metal rods. But Frank Krygowski appears not to have been told that in the community welding school where he was "edjicated".

Andre Jute
One of my best trolls ever:
Not everything in Materials is in Timoshenko
Drove poor old Jimbo sputtering mad with rage
and earned a huckle-chuckle from Jobst

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 05:37:00 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>A question for the EEE here !

I'm an E&EE (Electrical and Electronic Engineer).

>If an auto batt rates at 12.6 volts and my alternator gives 13.2
>What does a 12Volt device ask for auto use age ?

The 12v (nominal) device has no choice but to take whatever voltage
the power system gives it. If the engine is off, and the battery
somewhat depleted, it could go down to 11.5VDC. However, if you're
revving the engine, you could easily see 14.5VDC. The usual voltage
spec is 13.6VDC +/- 10% (12.2 to 15.0v) but I usually design for
devices to handle a wider range.

>The air pump....the common air pump asks for 12V warning for no
>more...so is that 12V or 13.2 V or 12.6 V ?

12v is a "nominal" voltage. It could be 13.6v if you're running off a
lead-acid battery, or 11.5V if you're running a Lithium Ion battery.
Most devices, including your air pump, can handle a wide range of
voltages. The good and expensive stuff usually specify a working
voltage range. The cheap junk doesn't.

>Do we replace all 12V requirements with 12.6 or 13.2 and walk or not !

Usually 13.6v. However, there is some stuff that needs 12.0V. For
example the externally powered Dell SX240 computah has a 12V power
supply that I found really wants to be 12.000000000V or bad things
happen.

>With aux lights there's a wire run loss
>http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
>from
>http://www.powerstream.com/tech.html

Yes, there's wire loss. It all depends on what type of light you're
running. If it's incandescent, you're going to see some variation in
intensity as the voltage varies, unless is has a regulator built into
the light. However, with LED lights, they usually have a current
regulator built in, so the intensity remains constant above some
specified voltage.

What this means is that you can't generalize on what something wants
for voltage unless you specify what that something happens to be.

>from by Leib.
>Hella sez: A 10% drop in voltage (1.2V) equals 33% drop in light output !!

For what? An incandescent light bulb? An LED light that's made to
run off a dynamo? An LED light that's made to run off a rechargeable
battery? They all work differently.

>So are we dropping from 12V in reality ignored 12.6 or 13.2 ! or from 12V...

Who's we? Please perform a simple test. Plug it in and measure what
you're really getting for voltage. If it's too high and your
unspecified light explodes, then you've learned an important lesson,
which is to read the specs before plugging it in.

>Aiaiiaiieieiiekakka !!!!!!!!!!!!.!

Hmmm... your keyboard seems to be having a sticky key problem.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/19/2015 1:23 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 5:55:28 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 12:36:42 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 9:54:38 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 6/18/2015 4:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The neatest thing I saw on a wired bicycle computer was done with one that had the twin wires on it rather than the more common coaxial type of wire. The guy had a hollow stem binder bolt and had run his wire down the stem binder bolt and out the bottom of the fork to the sensor located near the top of the fork leg. I wondered if he bought the stem bolt like that or if he had it drilled out by some shop?
>>>>
>>>> I'd be very wary about drilling out an important bolt like that. My
>>>> most weight-weenie friend drilled out the (single) bolt holding his
>>>> saddle to his seatpost. He was about 50 miles from home when it
>>>> suddenly failed. It caused considerable concern, and that bolt's not
>>>> as important as a stem bolt.
>>>>
>>>> In his case, he was lucky that another rider was able to fit a "good
>>>> enough for now" replacement.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> What's so "important" about the binder bolt, Franki-boy? Are you sure you understand what function the components perform in a modern bicycle? (Wikipedia seems to be your speed. Or you could step up to Sheldon Brown's site, which uses simple language. Whichever you choose, pay close attention as confusion between quill and ahead stems can cause painful incidents which is what serious cyclists call "accidents".) On a modern Ahead system, the binder bolt is used only to set the bearing preload in a static bike. Dynamically, the important bolt is the one that ties the stem to the steerer, which acts as a collar to lock the system into place. After that the binder bolt is irrelevant in an Ahead system. Conclusion: it makes no difference if it is hollow, just as long as it is strong enough to set the preload.
>>>
>>> Andre Jute
>>> Not that I expect to be thanked graciously for helping out this Krygowski klown.
>>
>> But I was talking about a hollow stem binder bolt on a quill stem on a road bike. The guy ran his wire through the stem bolt and out the bottom of the fork to the top of the fork leg. It was very neat looking with hardly any wire exposed.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> Sure thing, Ridealot. But we should have the difference between quill and ahead stems on the table. We don't want stick-in-the-mud luddites like Franki-boy Krygowski dangerously confusing newbies with his ignorance.

I knew what Sir was talking about and you didn't, Jute. Shut up.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I know they exist. But as I said, I'd be very wary about drilling out
that bolt to make my own.

If the original were designed (choice of material, diameter, etc.) to be
just strong enough, you'd be significantly weakening it by drilling.
Plus, drilling a small diameter hole and keeping it centered in a long
piece of steel is quite difficult.

Commercial ones may be made of higher grade steel. I'd say if you want
one, buy it; don't try to drill it yourself.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Duane]

My Garmin is wireless and I use it down to -10C. I imagine it would
work on a folding bike. Before that I had a Mavic wireless. Also good
at -10C. In both cases my cadence/speed sensor is mounted on the rear
chain stay to monitor magnets on the pedal and rear wheel respectively.
I don't think it could be much farther from the computer.

If you insist on wire, your suggestion should work providing you have
good connectors.