USCF Junior gearing limit for road racing?
SSSA
races/criteriums? I'm guessing it's about a 53x16, but I'm not sure.
Thanks in advance.
Sean
Jim Quinn
Harry Wolfson
> Does anybody know the gearing limit for Juniors in USCF road
> races/criteriums? I'm guessing it's about a 53x16, but I'm not sure.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Sean
Junior gear restrictions for _USCF_ races were eliminated several
years ago.
HOWEVER, the UCI still has Jr gear restrictions and at least one
Jr race in North America has enforced it over the years: the Tour
l'Abiditi in Canada.
This year, there is at least one Jr race in the US that is supposedly
on the UCI calendar (although the UCI web site doesn't seem to identify
Jr races).
You also might want to check if promoters of newly UCI sanctioned
*Senior* races in the US (eg, Redlands, Sea Otter, etc) will decide
to enforce UCI Jr gear restrictions even though any Jr events they
have may NOT be UCI sanctioned.
<flame on>
Race promoters who enforce UCI rules on non-UCI events (for example
Junior fields at the US CX SuperCup races) should really take a step
back and examine their motivations.
<flame off - well not so bad of a flame...>
<on soap box>
Junior gear restrictions are a foolish waste of time, effort and
expense. Even if Jrs are resticted to less than a 52x14 gear, there
is nothing to prevent a poorly trained kid from killing his knees
by mashing his biggest gear all the time. Restricting gears does
NOT train a kid to spin - unless their training route is entirely
down hill! Coaching, club rides and training advice from experienced
riders is what helps develops Juniors - not arbitrary and capricious
rules!
<off soap box>
--
Harry Wolfson
HarryW...@LL.MIT.EDU
cog...@grecc.umaryland.edu
(snip)
> Junior gear restrictions are a foolish waste of time, effort and
> expense. Even if Jrs are resticted to less than a 52x14 gear, there
> is nothing to prevent a poorly trained kid from killing his knees
> by mashing his biggest gear all the time. Restricting gears does
> NOT train a kid to spin - unless their training route is entirely
> down hill! Coaching, club rides and training advice from xperienced
> riders is what helps develops Juniors - not arbitrary and apricious
> rules!
My sentiments exactly...at age 17, my PR for a 25 mile TT while using
the then junior gear limit of 52 x 15 was just under 1:01:00. The next
spring, after a lazy off-season (freshman in college) but using a 53 x
13, I went 56:50 right off the bat. We slow-twitchers need big gears!
Andrew Coggan
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
SSSA
Sean
Roger
>
> Does anybody know the gearing limit for Juniors in USCF road
> races/criteriums? I'm guessing it's about a 53x16, but I'm not sure.
> Thanks in advance.
Other people have answered your question, but an interesting anecdote
from Greg LeMond's book says that they used to test the old 52 x 15
junior limit by rolling the bike backwards one pedal revolution and
seeing how far it went, rather than actually counting gear teeth. It
wasn't long before he and others discovered that 53 x 15 also passed
this rather inaccurate test.
--
Roger
Web: http://freespace.virgin.net/roger.cantwell
ICQ: 40038278
*** Please remove 'filler' from the Reply address ***
John Forrest Tomlinson
>Other people have answered your question, but an interesting anecdote
>from Greg LeMond's book says that they used to test the old 52 x 15
>junior limit by rolling the bike backwards one pedal revolution and
>seeing how far it went, rather than actually counting gear teeth. It
>wasn't long before he and others discovered that 53 x 15 also passed
>this rather inaccurate test.
What do you mean innacurate? Seeing how far the bike will roll for each
turn of the cranks has far more meaning than merely counting teeth.
JT
--
****************************************
Visit http://www.jt10000.com/
Cycling, Food and Stories
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Christian Stauduhar
wheels rolls out the same. It has nothing to do with a lack of accuracy in
the test.
Roger wrote:
> SSSA wrote:
> >
> > Does anybody know the gearing limit for Juniors in USCF road
> > races/criteriums? I'm guessing it's about a 53x16, but I'm not sure.
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> Other people have answered your question, but an interesting anecdote
> from Greg LeMond's book says that they used to test the old 52 x 15
> junior limit by rolling the bike backwards one pedal revolution and
> seeing how far it went, rather than actually counting gear teeth. It
> wasn't long before he and others discovered that 53 x 15 also passed
> this rather inaccurate test.
Mark McMaster
> >from Greg LeMond's book says that they used to test the old 52 x 15
> >junior limit by rolling the bike backwards one pedal revolution and
> >seeing how far it went, rather than actually counting gear teeth. It
> >wasn't long before he and others discovered that 53 x 15 also passed
> >this rather inaccurate test.
>
> turn of the cranks has far more meaning than merely counting teeth.
Not only is measuring the distance traveled with one
revolution of the cranks more accurate, it is also how the
gearing limit is defined. This definition eliminates many
variables like wheel diameter, tire width, etc. The USCF
didn't care what combination of chainrings and cogs you
used, or what wheel diameter, just as long it didn't roll
more than the limit distance with each revolution of the
crank (this measurement is also know as the "development" of
the drivetrain).
Mark McMaster
MMc...@ix.netcom.com
Roger
>
> Actually, the gear restriction was 52x15 on 27" wheels. 53x15 on 700c
> wheels rolls out the same. It has nothing to do with a lack of accuracy in
> the test.
LeMond was talking about the 1977 national championships, so perhaps
they were all on 27" wheels in those days? OTOH, haven't tubs always
been 700c?
Andrew Coggan
>
> Christian Stauduhar wrote:
> >
> > Actually, the gear restriction was 52x15 on 27" wheels. 53x15 on 700c
> > wheels rolls out the same. It has nothing to do with a lack of accuracy in
> > the test.
>
> LeMond was talking about the 1977 national championships, so perhaps
> they were all on 27" wheels in those days? OTOH, haven't tubs always
> been 700c?
Just how young are you, Roger? ;-) Back in 1977, narrow, high pressure
clinchers were just becoming available, and almost everybody still rode
tubulars. I think it was 1978 or so that I built up my first set of 700C
clinchers to use for training (although prior to that I know that some
riders used a 27" rear clincher for training, just raising their brake
blocks a bit).
Andrew Coggan
David L. Johnson
>
> Christian Stauduhar wrote:
> >
> > Actually, the gear restriction was 52x15 on 27" wheels. 53x15 on 700c
> > wheels rolls out the same. It has nothing to do with a lack of accuracy in
> > the test.
>
> LeMond was talking about the 1977 national championships, so perhaps
> they were all on 27" wheels in those days? OTOH, haven't tubs always
> been 700c?
I really doubt anyone competing in the '77 nationals would have been riding
the 27" tires of the day. Maybe some were on 700c clinchers, but, back then,
almost all would have been on tubulars -- which would have been 700c (or 650
for short frames).
--
David L. Johnson david....@lehigh.edu
Department of Mathematics http://www.lehigh.edu/~dlj0/dlj0.html
Lehigh University
14 E. Packer Avenue (610) 758-3759
Bethlehem, PA 18015-3174
Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of enough
typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would reproduce
the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has proven this not to
be the case.
Andrew Coggan
> I really doubt anyone competing in the '77 nationals would have been riding
> the 27" tires of the day. Maybe some were on 700c clinchers, but, back then,
> almost all would have been on tubulars -- which would have been 700c (or 650
> for short frames).
I don't recall ever seeing a 650C wheel until the mid-80's or so, but
many riders racing in the Midget and Intermediate categories in the 70's
used 24" tubulars. IIRC, the Panasonic Rapide was the most popular tire
in that size.
Andrew Coggan
Les Earnest
> > Does anybody know the gearing limit for Juniors in USCF road
> > races/criteriums? I'm guessing it's about a 53x16, but I'm not sure.
> > Thanks in advance.
USCF gear limits were removed in 1996.
> Roger responded:
> Other people have answered your question, but an interesting anecdote
> from Greg LeMond's book says that they used to test the old 52 x 15
> junior limit by rolling the bike backwards one pedal revolution and
> seeing how far it went, rather than actually counting gear teeth. It
> wasn't long before he and others discovered that 53 x 15 also passed
> this rather inaccurate test.
If that is what Greg said then he clearly misunderstood the gear limit
rule.Gear limits were given in terms of rollout distance, not gear ratios.
Thus
the rollout test was the only accurate way to check the gearing.
Some riders tried to sneak through by deflating their tires a bit, to
produce a lower rollout distance, but most officials were on to that.
In the mid-1970s when Greg Lemond started racing, juniors were required
to observe junior gear limits even when they entered senior races, which
put
them at a substantial disadvantage in some events. I was chief referee at
the
Butterfly Criterium in Pacific Grove, California, in 1979 when I noticed
that
Greg's cadence was about the same as the other riders, which meant that he
probably was using illegal gears. After the finish in which he placed
second,
I asked he to give us the bike for a roll-out test. Greg forthrightly
responded
"Never mind, it's illegal!"
Under the rules I was obligated to disqualify him even though I believed
that the
rule was unfair. I felt bad about doing that and there was much loud
booing
when the announcement was made. I was afraid for awhile that we might be
lynched by Greg's more avid fans, but we managed to get out of there alive.
That evening I talked to Greg and his dad on the phone and said that I
thought the
rule was unfair. Given that the USCF board of directors was scheduled to
meet
two weeks later, I offered to try to get the rule changed to remove the
gear limit
rule for juniors competing in senior events, provided that the Lemonds
would
support it. They agreed to do so and we subsequently got that change made.
I continued to work on getting the silly junior gear limits eliminated
entirely but it
took a number of attempts over the following 16 years before the USCF board
finally agreed to do it in late 1995. One of the chief obstacles
throughout that
time was what I call "Old coaches' tales" -- the set of beliefs that are
passed from
one generation of coaches to the next with no attempt at scientific
verification.
-Les Earnest
David L. Johnson
That may be. I do recall some people with small wheels, but my memory was
vague on exactly how small.
Christian Stauduhar
"David L. Johnson" wrote:
> Roger wrote:
> >
> > Christian Stauduhar wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, the gear restriction was 52x15 on 27" wheels. 53x15 on 700c
> > > wheels rolls out the same. It has nothing to do with a lack of accuracy in
> > > the test.
> >
> > LeMond was talking about the 1977 national championships, so perhaps
> > they were all on 27" wheels in those days? OTOH, haven't tubs always
> > been 700c?
>
> I really doubt anyone competing in the '77 nationals would have been riding
> the 27" tires of the day. Maybe some were on 700c clinchers, but, back then,
> almost all would have been on tubulars -- which would have been 700c (or 650
> for short frames).
>
Roger
> If that is what Greg said then he clearly misunderstood the gear limit
> rule.Gear limits were given in terms of rollout distance, not gear ratios.
<snip>
Thanks for an interesting post. My original reference was to "Greg
LeMond's Complete Book Of Bicycling", ISBN 0 399 51594 1, p158 in case
anyone has it.
As you've done it, how easy is it to do an accurate rollout test in a
hurry? I can imagine it's fairly difficult to ensure the cranks trun
exactly 360 degrees - the difference between a 53T and a 52T chainring
would only increase crank rotation by 6 degrees, so I can imagine people
trying it on!
Casey Kerrigan
Roger wrote:
>
> As you've done it, how easy is it to do an accurate rollout test in a
> hurry? I can imagine it's fairly difficult to ensure the cranks trun
> exactly 360 degrees - the difference between a 53T and a 52T chainring
> would only increase crank rotation by 6 degrees, so I can imagine people
> trying it on!
> --
Roger,
as an official I've done lots of rollouts. It is pretty easy to do a real
accurate one. The key is starting with the pedal in a specific location ( most
of the time you have the crankarm pointing straight down at the very start of
the distance). In most cases the bikes aren't that close to the roll out limit.
In the close cases you can re-roll the bike just to be sure.
Casey
Marsh Jones
rider showed up with a very low tire at the rollout. Funny that the pump was lying
in the grass about 20' back up the infield. I love actors and hams.
Marsh
Brad C. Decker
>
>
> LeMond was talking about the 1977 national championships, so perhaps
> they were all on 27" wheels in those days? OTOH, haven't tubs always
> been 700c?
> --
1978...
Super Champ Rims with Clement Seta tires... 700c
I raced the 1978 Nationals (juniors) with Lemond in the pack.
We raced the Lake Front course that was also used the week
prior for Super Week. Jeff Bradley won the race. I'll never
forget that race. I had my mom feeding for the first time
in a race. I'll never forget her running the wrong way
towards the pack with banana Screaming "Bradley, I have your
Banana". The pack lost it... I got my feed. Thanks mom
for the memories...
-Brad Decker