Vertical Drop Outs on rear of frame
Erness Wild
had horizontal drop outs on the rear frame. The message was that
vertical drop outs were bad. They didn't say why. Anybody?
--
A website is a place, where, when you go there, it does everything
possible to distract you, from finding the information you came there
to see.- E.W.
andre...@aol.com
In theory, with a horizontal dropouts you could adjust the alignment
of the wheel if the frame was not perfectly even. You could also
install the wheel closer or farther away from the seat tube. However,
In a hard acceleration you could also pull the right side of the hub
forward unless you really tightened the quick release. And, if you
want a really short wheelbase a horizontal dropout will not let you
install the wheel with the tire inflated.
With the vertical dropout you don't have adjustability if the dropouts
are uneven. I haven't heard of too many people having this problem.
You also cannot move the wheel closer or farther from the seattube. I
don't think that this is very important. With vertical dropouts wheels
install much easier and you can have a tighter frame. Finally, you
will not pull the wheel forward with hard pedaling.
Nowadays, most frames come with vertical dropouts. Horizontal was a
pre 2000 lugged steel frame style, particularly with italian frames.
Some steel frame builders started to use vertical dropouts in their
high end frames in the 90s.
I prefer vertical
P. Chisholm
Wonder if they are looking for horizontal because of the 'fixie' craze
now going on. Gotta have horizontal for that.
Don't think that vertical are bad, just not useable for a fixie.
Chalo
>
> I just saw a bicycle advertisement looking for used bike
> frames that had horizontal drop outs on the rear frame.
> The message was that vertical drop outs were bad. They
> didn't say why. Anybody?
The seller was trying to spin a marketing disadvantage into a
perceived advantage. Many people in the market for bare frames,
especially used frame these days, are only interested in horizontal
dropouts because they want to build a fixed gear or single speed road
bike. That has made frames with vertical dropouts, which are already
more plentiful, harder to sell.
Vertical dropouts have the advantage of allowing you to use both
derailleur and non-derailleur drivetrains. They have the disadvantage
of not being as idiot-proof as vertical dropouts, which can only be
used with derailleur drivetrains since they don't offer a method to
take up chain slack. With a vertical dropout, the QR or axle nuts can
be almost loose without causing problems. With horizontal dropouts,
the QR or nuts must be quite tight or the axle will slip.
(I prefer to think of the kludge known as a "single-speed chain
tensioner" as a single-speed derailleur, because even though it
doesn't allow you to change gears, it does allow the chain to
derail.)
There are subtle safety and durability advantages to vertical
dropouts, but since they constrain the type of bike you can build with
them, they are generally less desirable than horizontal dropouts for
DIY cyclists.
Chalo
andre...@aol.com
Don't have a fixie, but can't you have a fixie with vertical dropouts?
why not?
Chalo
>
> Erness Wild wrote:
>
> > I just saw a bicycle advertisement looking for used bike
> > frames that had horizontal drop outs on the rear frame.
> > The message was that vertical drop outs were bad. They
> > didn't say why. Anybody?
>
> The seller was trying to spin a marketing disadvantage into a
> perceived advantage. Many people in the market for bare frames,
> especially used frame these days, are only interested in horizontal
> dropouts because they want to build a fixed gear or single speed road
> bike. That has made frames with vertical dropouts, which are already
> more plentiful, harder to sell.
Somehow I read your posting and perceived the opposite of what you
were saying the advertiser intended-- I thought that he/she was
selling rather than buying, and boasting of vertical dropouts rather
than snubbing them.
That's what I get for looking at Usenet before I get my morning
caffeine.
Chalo
Chalo
>
> P. Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > Wonder if they are looking for horizontal because of the
> > 'fixie' craze now going on. Gotta have horizontal for
> > that. Don't think that vertical are bad, just not
> > useable for a fixie.
>
> Don't have a fixie, but can't you have a fixie with
> vertical dropouts?
> why not?
A fixed gear bike requires precise chain tension adjustment to
accommodate different sizes of sprockets and take up chain wear.
Vertical dropouts typically allow less than 1mm adjustment from BB to
rear axle. Thus you may be able to find a gear combination that works
as a fixed gear for your vertical dropout equipped bike, but that
combination won't necessarily be in a gear inch range that you like--
and as the chain wears, it will become slack without having an
effective means of taking up that slack. That means not being able to
make small changes in gearing, and having to replace your chain much
more often than you would otherwise have to.
All the same issues apply to a coaster-braked bike or single-speed
freewheel bike. A coaster braked bike is generally more tolerant of
small amounts of slack in the chain, though, and a single freewheel
bike can be retrofitted with a single speed derailleur (or multi-speed
derailleur locked in a fixed position).
Eric House's FixMeUp program tells you what combinations of front and
rear sprockets will work for your vertical dropout equipped frame:
http://eehouse.org/fixin/fixmeup.php
It's all a needless nuisance that is entirely avoided by using
horizontal dropouts.
Chalo
_
You can, but you will need another method of adjusting for chain tension -
and eccentric BB will do.
Andre Jute
> I just saw a bicycle advertisement looking for used bike frames that
> had horizontal drop outs on the rear frame. The message was that
> vertical drop outs were bad. They didn't say why. Anybody?
>
> --
He probably wants to build a single-speed or fixie. If the frame has
vertical dropouts, he has to add an ugly chain tensioner. With
horizontal frame ends he can slide the axle along to tension the
frame.
Horizontal dropouts make it difficult if the bike has close-fitting
mudguards to remove the wheel.
There is however a solution which gives you freedom from both ugly
chain tensioners and tiresome difficulties removing the wheel. Here is
a photograph of the vertical yet horizontally sliding dropouts on my
Utopia Kranich:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/UtopiaKranich0109/Rohloff%20sliders.jpg
The bright ali plate with the long vertical dropout is bolted to the
bike through the two horizontal slots, in which the whole assembly of
dropout and axle/hub slides for chain tension. The long dropout is
also used for anti-rotation location. For context see the PDF under my
sig. Multiple further designs for various frame types and purposes in
the tech PDFs on the Rohloff site, complete with CADCAM files for the
fortunate few who have a laser cutter.
HTH.
Andre Jute
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf
(the dropout is on p8)
RonSonic
>On May 6, 1:51�pm, Erness Wild <erness.w...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
>> I just saw a bicycle advertisement looking for used bike frames that
>> had horizontal drop outs on the rear frame. The message was that
>> vertical drop outs were bad. They didn't say why. Anybody?
>>
>> --
>
>He probably wants to build a single-speed or fixie. If the frame has
>vertical dropouts, he has to add an ugly chain tensioner. With
>horizontal frame ends he can slide the axle along to tension the
>frame.
>
>Horizontal dropouts make it difficult if the bike has close-fitting
>mudguards to remove the wheel.
Hruhhh?
Ryan Cousineau
<2b02ba5c-8808-4cbf...@s31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
"andre...@aol.com" <andre...@aol.com> wrote:
Jobst has pointed out his own early experiences with vertical dropouts,
but I briefly had a Japanese-built Nishiki frame from the early 80s that
had vertical dropouts.
I can't quite put my finger on why. That was quite early for anyone to
be mass-producing vertical dropout frames, and I don't think they stayed
with the feature. It may have disappeared as production (Nishiki was a
captive brand of Norco at the time) moved to different factories in
Taiwan.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
Mark
S'truth. The wheel can't move as far forward, and you can have trouble
getting the QR nut to clear the front of the derailleur mounting pivot.
I have this situation on one of my bikes.
'Course with a flat tire, everything works just ducky, but I prefer to
reinflate /before/ reinstalling the wheel.
Mark J.
Chalo
>
> There is however a solution which gives you freedom from both
> ugly chain tensioners and tiresome difficulties removing the
> wheel. Here is a photograph of the vertical yet horizontally
> sliding dropouts on my Utopia Kranich:
> http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/UtopiaKranich0109/Rohloff%20sliders.jpg
> The bright ali plate with the long vertical dropout is
> bolted to the bike through the two horizontal slots, in which
> the whole assembly of dropout and axle/hub slides for chain
> tension. The long dropout is also used for anti-rotation
> location.
My Van Dessel Buzz Bomb had that kind of dropouts. They worked well
for as long as I kept that bike. They were easier to adjust than the
bottom bracket eccentric on my Bohemian MTB. Such frames are
uncommon, though, and it would be very difficult to retrofit sliding
dropouts onto a frame that didn't feature them from the beginning.
Chalo
P. Chisholm
Gotta tension the chain somehow onna fixie. You can if by luck, the
gearing you have just happens to make for a tensioned chain. If you
have vertical dropouts you can have a chain tensioner with single
speed but bad idea for a fixie.
Lou Holtman
Chalo
>
> andresmuro schreef:
> >
> > P. Chisholm wrote:
> >> On
> >> Don't think that vertical are bad, just not useable for a fixie.
> >
> > Don't have a fixie, but can't you have a fixie with vertical dropouts?
>
> Sure, with a eccentric BB for instance.
That's a $200 solution for a $0 problem.
The only value-added role I have seen for eccentric BBs or sliding
dropouts is to be able to combine a single speed (fixed, gearhub)
drivetrain with a disc brake.
Fixed gear bikes often don't have any kind of rear brake, so there is
no need to rethink the slotted dropout-- a solution that is proven,
effective, and economical.
Chalo
Lou Holtman
Aha, it has to be cheap. Well ride your geared bike and don't shift:
singlespeed mode. Don't shift and don't coast: fixed gear mode.
Lou
AMuzi
> I just saw a bicycle advertisement looking for used bike frames that had
> horizontal drop outs on the rear frame. The message was that vertical
> drop outs were bad. They didn't say why. Anybody?
'bad' ? more like blondes vs. brunettes; either OK on
different days.
Vertical are fine for derailleur gear systems but an
impediment to fixed, single, internal gearboxes.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
AMuzi
With a White ENO offset axle hub, sure.
Other methods abound. Some painful, some temporary, some
expensive, some just silly. More 'workarounds' than solutions.
In most cases you'd have an easier more elegant setup with a
normal horizontal end.
AMuzi
Large fashion component in that.
Early verticals on production bikes in some models include
Welker/Garlatti and Sekai (Yamaguchi Frame), i.e., just
bikes, nothing earth-changing. Artisan builders such as
Jackson, early Cinelli et al offered them too, but the
fashion had not changed so both styles were offered. At the
end of the day, function aside, builders build what sells.
Jay Beattie
> Erness Wild wrote:
> > I just saw a bicycle advertisement looking for used bike frames that had
> > horizontal drop outs on the rear frame. The message was that vertical
> > drop outs were bad. They didn't say why. Anybody?
>
> 'bad' ? more like blondes vs. brunettes; either OK on
> different days.
>
> Vertical are fine for derailleur gear systems but an
> impediment to fixed, single, internal gearboxes.
I'm going to confess to something here: I never could feel any
difference when I moved my wheel forward or backward in 1010
dropouts. I always hoped that moving the wheel forward would make me
faster. I also worried about bending the adjuster screw, a sure first
sign that a nice bike was creeping toward beaterdom -- that and the
first wrench mark on the soft SR headset lock nut or adjustable cup.
All down hill from there.-- Jay Beattie.
John Thompson
> Jobst has pointed out his own early experiences with vertical dropouts,
> but I briefly had a Japanese-built Nishiki frame from the early 80s that
> had vertical dropouts.
>
> I can't quite put my finger on why. That was quite early for anyone to
> be mass-producing vertical dropout frames, and I don't think they stayed
> with the feature. It may have disappeared as production (Nishiki was a
> captive brand of Norco at the time) moved to different factories in
> Taiwan.
FWIW, Campagnolo's 1967 catalog #15 shows "Corsa" vertical dropouts
(part #1060), so somebody must have been using them back then...
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
Ryan Cousineau
John Thompson <jo...@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
I don't know the truth, but I have heard that one reason for the late
adoption of vertical dropouts was the greater precision required when
building a frame that way (a horizontal dropout will mask some
misalignment of the dropouts).
I think this is not likely, since surely a horizontal dropout still has
to be aligned in the vertical plane with its mate, otherwise no
adjustment would make the axle sit right. Maybe someone here can attest
to older frames with dropout alignment issues.
That leaves the other explanation: there wasn't a keen sense that
verticals were better*, and horizontal dropouts would have been historic
from the era of the singlespeed road racing bikes and Cambio Corsa
derailers.
Also, you can make fixies out of them.
*I'm pretty sure they are, and if nothing else I've had some bad
experiences with combining horizontal dropouts and bad boutique
quick-releases. Wheel pulls forward...
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Large fashion component in that.
> Early verticals on production bikes in some models include
> Welker/Garlatti and Sekai (Yamaguchi Frame), i.e., just bikes,
> nothing earth-changing. Artisan builders such as Jackson, early
> Cinelli et al offered them too, but the fashion had not changed so
> both styles were offered. At the end of the day, function aside,
> builders build what sells.
My interest was to prevent axles from bending under chain pull because
there was no support fore and aft for knurl-faced axle jam nuts over
the dropout slot. Removing the rear wheel for service required users
to pound on the tire to make the jam nut pop out of the deep grooves
it had augered into the dropout face. Local frame builders filled in
these dropout faces with weld for many riders who had difficulty
removing rear wheels.
Beside that, I had a large collection of broken Campagnolo axles from
Campagnolo RECORD hubs that were designed for four speed clusters but
later had six, causing a large overhang from axle bearing to dropout.
Failures were not readily noticeable because QR skewers held things
together, meanwhile this caused dropout failures in which the lower
part with the derailleur tab breaking off.
I now use Shimano 7-speed hubs whose cassettes have axle bearings at
their outer ends with minimal overhang, besides having easily
removable sprockets (that don't screw on with pedaling torque).
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Jobst has pointed out his own early experiences with vertical
>> dropouts, but I briefly had a Japanese-built Nishiki frame from the
>> early 80s that had vertical dropouts.
>> I can't quite put my finger on why. That was quite early for
>> anyone to be mass-producing vertical dropout frames, and I don't
>> think they stayed with the feature. It may have disappeared as
>> production (Nishiki was a captive brand of Norco at the time) moved
>> to different factories in Taiwan.
> FWIW, Campagnolo's 1967 catalog #15 shows "Corsa" vertical dropouts
> (part #1060), so somebody must have been using them back then...
As I said, I was convinced of the advantages of vertical dropouts I
saw in the East German Diamant bicycles at the 1960 Olympics and had
four pair made to my drawings that I gave to Cino Cinelli for my next
bicycle and one for my wife's. The fourth pair were missing in 1962
and shortly after Cino's good friend Tullio put them into production.
I didn't invent them nor have a direct affect on that production, but
Sig. Cinelli did.
Jobst Brandt
andre...@aol.com
Got it, thx
Peter Howard
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rcousine-F9882A.20523006052009@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
<some snips>
>
> I don't know the truth, but I have heard that one reason for the late
> adoption of vertical dropouts was the greater precision required when
> building a frame that way (a horizontal dropout will mask some
> misalignment of the dropouts).
>
> I think this is not likely, since surely a horizontal dropout still has
> to be aligned in the vertical plane with its mate, otherwise no
> adjustment would make the axle sit right. Maybe someone here can attest
> to older frames with dropout alignment issues.
>
Interesting thread. I did a quick survey of my deraiileur capable frames and
they are
3 with vertical dropouts. One new frame, one 1999 one 1992.
2 with forward facing sloping (semi-horizontal?). One 1984 with shortish slot,
one 1991 with longer slot
1 anomaly with replaceable derailleur hanger AND rearward facing "track ends".
Modern aluminium folder.
Following on from Ryan's speculation, both of the semi-horizontal dropouts had
little adjustable screws with knurled heads and locknuts threaded through the
back of the dropout and protruding into the slot so the fore/aft position of the
axle can be varied. What are they actually for?
To compensate for possible inaccuracy of the back of the dropout slots?
To adjust relationship of rim track and caliper brake shoe?
To adjust relationship of gear cassette to derailleur?
I'm not sure because when I refurbished these two trash heap frames I carefully
removed and stored the adjuster screws away where they wouldn't get damaged. One
bike has the axle shoved to the back of the slot and I've never noticed any
problems with wheel alignment, brake or shifting.The other is currently a single
speed with BMX style chain tugs.
PH
Michael Press
"Peter Howard" <bbrov...@bbbigpond.net.au> wrote:
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:rcousine-F9882A.20523006052009@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>
> <some snips>
> >
> > I don't know the truth, but I have heard that one reason for the late
> > adoption of vertical dropouts was the greater precision required when
> > building a frame that way (a horizontal dropout will mask some
> > misalignment of the dropouts).
> >
> > I think this is not likely, since surely a horizontal dropout still has
> > to be aligned in the vertical plane with its mate, otherwise no
> > adjustment would make the axle sit right. Maybe someone here can attest
> > to older frames with dropout alignment issues.
> >
>
> Interesting thread. I did a quick survey of my deraiileur capable frames and
> they are
>
> 3 with vertical dropouts. One new frame, one 1999 one 1992.
> 2 with forward facing sloping (semi-horizontal?).
No, they are horizontal. The angle of the slope is to keep the
rim close to the brake blocks even if the axle is moved in the dropouts.
> One 1984 with shortish slot,
> one 1991 with longer slot
> 1 anomaly with replaceable derailleur hanger AND rearward facing "track ends".
> Modern aluminium folder.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<rcousine-F9882A.20523006052009@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
Early season professional training often included fixed gear rides,
hence horizontal dropouts to easily convert between fixed gear
riding and fixed gear riding.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
^^^^^^
effect
Probably recast the sentence in mid-stream.
(I didn't invent them nor directly affect production, but ...)
--
Michael Press
Sandy
news:rubrum-FD0C24....@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
For *professional* training, much simpler to have a fixie bike as well.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> Jobst has pointed out his own early experiences with vertical
>>>> dropouts, but I briefly had a Japanese-built Nishiki frame from the
>>>> early 80s that had vertical dropouts.
>>>> I can't quite put my finger on why. That was quite early for
>>>> anyone to be mass-producing vertical dropout frames, and I don't
>>>> think they stayed with the feature. It may have disappeared as
>>>> production (Nishiki was a captive brand of Norco at the time) moved
>>>> to different factories in Taiwan.
>>> FWIW, Campagnolo's 1967 catalog #15 shows "Corsa" vertical dropouts
>>> (part #1060), so somebody must have been using them back then...
>> As I said, I was convinced of the advantages of vertical dropouts I
>> saw in the East German Diamant bicycles at the 1960 Olympics and had
>> four pair made to my drawings that I gave to Cino Cinelli for my next
>> bicycle and one for my wife's. The fourth pair were missing in 1962
>> and shortly after Cino's good friend Tullio put them into production.
>> I didn't invent them nor have a direct affect on that production, but
>> Sig. Cinelli did.
> effect
> Probably recast the sentence in mid-stream. (I didn't invent them
> nor directly affect production, but ...)
Thanks, that is roughly the sequence of events. Of course, had I used
modern style, the word would have been "impact", the two forms,
"effect" and "affect", considered archaic, have almost universally
been replaced by "impact", most people not wanting to think about it,
as you can see in the print media.
Jobst Brandt
AMuzi
Could be.
Bianchi other Italian builders used a 'diagonal vertical'
end, short and about 45 degrees, in the late '80s/ early
'90s. Steel, by GPM. With adjuster screws too.
John Thompson
> In article <slrnh04jo...@vector.os2.dhs.org>,
> John Thompson <jo...@vector.os2.dhs.org> wrote:
>
>> FWIW, Campagnolo's 1967 catalog #15 shows "Corsa" vertical dropouts
>> (part #1060), so somebody must have been using them back then...
> *I'm pretty sure they are [superior to horizontl dropouts], and if
> nothing else I've had some bad experiences with combining horizontal
> dropouts and bad boutique quick-releases. Wheel pulls forward...
But is that the fault of the dropout or the inadequate clamping force of
the boutique "open cam" quick release?
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
pm
> In article <EtBMl.9360$y61.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "Peter Howard" <bbrover...@bbbigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Ryan Cousineau" <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:rcousine-F9882A.20523006052009@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>
> > <some snips>
>
> > > I don't know the truth, but I have heard that one reason for the late
> > > adoption of vertical dropouts was the greater precision required when
> > > building a frame that way (a horizontal dropout will mask some
> > > misalignment of the dropouts).
>
> > > I think this is not likely, since surely a horizontal dropout still has
> > > to be aligned in the vertical plane with its mate, otherwise no
> > > adjustment would make the axle sit right. Maybe someone here can attest
> > > to older frames with dropout alignment issues.
>
> > Interesting thread. I did a quick survey of my deraiileur capable frames and
> > they are
>
> > 3 with vertical dropouts. One new frame, one 1999 one 1992.
> > 2 with forward facing sloping (semi-horizontal?).
>
> No, they are horizontal. The angle of the slope is to keep the
> rim close to the brake blocks even if the axle is moved in the dropouts.
The downward slope of the dropout was required for operation of
Campagnolo's Cambio Corsa derailleur system. The rider's weight made
the axle roll back in the frame to tension the chain, but the axle
could be pulled forward by a derailing chain.
Video of the gear in action:
http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/aldoross/pd/CIMG0003.AVI.html
(Does anyone know whether these were the first horizontal dropouts?)
-pm
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
Dear P,
Berto's "Dancing Chain" 2nd edition covers the 1946 Cambio Corsa on
pages 160-2.
Numerous other earlier derailleurs are shown with forward-facing
dropouts angled slightly downward.
On p.98, the 1925 Le Cyclo Standard rear 3-speed derailleur looks like
a forward-downward dropout, but the angle is awkward.
On p. 100, the 1923 Super-As rear derailleur from Automoto has a clear
forward and slightly downward dropout.
On p. 101, ditto for the 1924 Le Crack rear derailleur and its two
thundering sprockets.
(On the same page, the Hirondelle retro-direct has a straight-down
vertical drop-out.)
On p. 102, a _rear_ facing horizontal dropout is shown on an Ancona
bicycle for a 1928 Vittoria derailleur.
On p. 109, the 1933 Cyclo Witmy's two-speed rear derailleur has a
forward-facing dropout, angled more steeply downward than the Cambio
Corsa.
On p. 110, the 1935 Cyclo Poly three-speed has a forward-facing
dropout, angled slightly downward, while the later Cyclo Dural is
shown with a through-axle dropout.
On p. 111, the 2-speed 1934 Simplex has a forward-facing,
downward-sloping dropout.
The four single-pulley 1934-5 Simplexes shown on p. 112 all have
forward facing dropouts, with three sloping a bit downward and one
dead level.
But the 1936 Simplex Route on p. 113 had two pulleys and what looks
like a rear-facing dropout.
And so on.
Fig. 7.23 illustrating the 1936 Super Champion on p. 114 seems to be
shown on a frame with _two_ dropouts,
http://i42.tinypic.com/2iu537s.jpg
But that's just a diagram, and it's a bit hard to tell.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Bret
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> > There is however a solution which gives you freedom from both
> > ugly chain tensioners and tiresome difficulties removing the
> > wheel. Here is a photograph of the vertical yet horizontally
> > sliding dropouts on my Utopia Kranich:
> > The bright ali plate with the long vertical dropout is
> > bolted to the bike through the two horizontal slots, in which
> > the whole assembly of dropout and axle/hub slides for chain
> > tension. The long dropout is also used for anti-rotation
> > location.
>
> My Van Dessel Buzz Bomb had that kind of dropouts. They worked well
> for as long as I kept that bike. They were easier to adjust than the
> bottom bracket eccentric on my Bohemian MTB. Such frames are
> uncommon, though, and it would be very difficult to retrofit sliding
> dropouts onto a frame that didn't feature them from the beginning.
>
> Chalo
Here are two more examples of adjustable vertical dropouts:
Voodoo Limba cross bike:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bwade913/3512607221/
Motobecane MTB frame:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bwade913/3512604745/
Both are built up with Alfine hubs and disk brakes. The Motobecane can
be had very cheap on eBay:
http://tinyurl.com/qwu7mb
Bret
jim beam
oh. usually you claim [insert name drop here] stole your idea.
jim beam
> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>
>> Large fashion component in that.
>
>> Early verticals on production bikes in some models include
>> Welker/Garlatti and Sekai (Yamaguchi Frame), i.e., just bikes,
>> nothing earth-changing. Artisan builders such as Jackson, early
>> Cinelli et al offered them too, but the fashion had not changed so
>> both styles were offered. At the end of the day, function aside,
>> builders build what sells.
>
> My interest was to prevent axles from bending under chain pull because
> there was no support fore and aft for knurl-faced axle jam nuts over
> the dropout slot.
what a bizarre statement! jobst, vertical drops don't prevent axle
bending - relocating the bearings [shimano] or using large diameter
axles [later campy] does that. yet another instance of jobstian
fundamental lack of understanding.
> Removing the rear wheel for service required users
> to pound on the tire to make the jam nut pop out of the deep grooves
> it had augered into the dropout face. Local frame builders filled in
> these dropout faces with weld for many riders who had difficulty
> removing rear wheels.
>
> Beside that, I had a large collection of broken Campagnolo axles from
> Campagnolo RECORD hubs that were designed for four speed clusters but
> later had six, causing a large overhang from axle bearing to dropout.
> Failures were not readily noticeable because QR skewers held things
> together, meanwhile this caused dropout failures in which the lower
> part with the derailleur tab breaking off.
>
> I now use Shimano 7-speed hubs whose cassettes have axle bearings at
> their outer ends with minimal overhang, besides having easily
> removable sprockets (that don't screw on with pedaling torque).
>
artful red herrings, but still no evidence of comprehension of the facts.
Erness Wild
> On May 6, 6:51 am, Erness Wild <erness.w...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
>> I just saw a bicycle advertisement looking for used bike frames that
>> had horizontal drop outs on the rear frame. The message was that
>> vertical drop outs were bad. They didn't say why. Anybody?
>>
>> A website is a place, where, when you go there, it does everything
>> possible to distract you, from finding the information you came there
>> to see.- E.W.
>
> now going on. Gotta have horizontal for that.
> Don't think that vertical are bad, just not useable for a fixie.
that's exactly right. they want donations to fix older bicycles for a
university rent-a-bike organization.
John Thompson
> Bianchi other Italian builders used a 'diagonal vertical'
> end, short and about 45 degrees, in the late '80s/ early
> '90s. Steel, by GPM. With adjuster screws too.
Shimano had a similar dropout on the market almost 10 years earlier:
http://os2.dhs.org/~john/dropouts/shimano-uf1.jpeg
--
John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)