Staying strong on the bike in old age

[William Crowell]

So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 5:14:20 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?

I am rather against vitamin pills but do eat Total cereal in the mornings which contain the daily recommended dose of most vitamins. The feeling of weakness comes and goes. I am not so sure that it is aging as much as insufficient riding. As soon as I get back to my 4 rides a week and after several months of that I get back to feeling pretty good on rides. I am not down to needing 41 miles to complete my target 5,000 miles. Hopefully between now and the end of the year we'll have a clear day. According to my long term charting of the Garmin I have exceeded the climbing target but the distance they show is 4044 but for the first half of the year I was using a speedo/altimeter before I got hooked on the Garmin. So I assume that my total climbing is WELL above my target and I' m sure that I have already passed my mileage target since there are a lot of open spaces where I must have forgot to log my ride.

A couple of years ago I was the last one on all of the climbs for months and months. Then suddenly I could ride up without a problem. And in one case I had had enough of the front two guys riding away from everyone on the climb (which was about 9%) and after they had about a quarter mile head start I took off and passed them. A year ago when I tried the same thing I was still a little short but as they entered the parking lot at the top I was directly behind them. Making up that much time on them showed that my strength wasn't too bad but the damage to my lungs really screws up my long term power and I'm stuck riding pretty slow long distances. My VO2Max is about the same as most people's low average.

So, unless you've suffered lung damage from long term smoking I wouldn't worry about age causing rapid diminishing of strength and would look more to training regime. I have a copy of Joe Friel's Training Bible and you can email me your address and I would send it to you if you like.

[Andre Jute]

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 1:14:20 PM UTC, William Crowell wrote:
> So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?
>

First of all, don't assume that any decline in powers is necessarily permanent. I wrote elsewhere that after heart surgery I was careful of how and where I rode, but that since I switched to a Rohloff hub gearbox I was surprised at how my riding speed and range increased, and again when I fitted an electric motor, which I use sparingly (I regulate it by my heart rate). Even more surprising was to hear from others who had the same unexpected improvement and didn't report it because they felt it was an anomaly. I'd also had the same experience when I bought a bike with a full-auto gearbox ( see
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html
for the details), though to a lesser extent.
>
Andre Jute
Willing to try anything -- once.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 8:14:20 AM UTC-5, William Crowell wrote:
> So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?

I purchased Fast After 50 by Joe Friel last year, which has a lot of great advice concerning training, diet, and general health approaches to staying fit as we age. The unfortunate aspect of the book is that Joe spends the first few chapters going into detail about the performance and health declines with aging - it's kinda depressing, and not really relevant if you're interested simply in keeping fit. One thing often overlooked is the importance of rest. I'm sure you already know this, but recovery periods get longer and longer as you age. It might simply be the case that you didn't give yourself enough recovery time and/or your diet in general might need some tweaking, even the weather (colder/wetter this time of year) has a more dramatic effect as we age. It isn't really possible to say "do this: ...." without knowing what your diet is like now, how often you ride, what types of rides you do, etc...

For starters though, give yourself a week or so to recover: do some indoor rides in a low aerobic zone, maybe three of those over a week no longer than an hour each. Stay away from alcohol and sugar, and try a balanced diet avoiding processed foods (which includes grains/breads BTW). Then go try your ride again on a day when the weather is at least comfortable.

If you're otherwise healthy and eat a healthy balanced diet, you shouldn't need vitamin supplements, but as we age iron deficiencies become common, which does lead to fatigue. As of my last annual, my doctor has only recommend vitamin D in the winter months so far. However, I'm not a doctor so _please_ don't take my advice on that. See your doctor and discuss the issue.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 5:14:20 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:

> So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?

I'd schedule a regular checkup with a physician. I could talk about one guy who had a similar but less radical experience - his
normal training ride suddenly became quite a bit slower. He thought "I'm out of shape" but he happened to have an annual
physical coming up. That physical exam showed atrial fibrillation.

- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Once every two year I do a sport specific checkup. Part of it is making an ECG at maximum power and a cooling down. Although the conclusion up to now is 'everything looks OK' they mention that it just a momentary result and I always have to look out for sudden performance loss that could not be declared by fatigue or whatever. That could be a sign that something is wrong with your heart. I got really conscious about this when my riding buddy (retired general practitioner) suddenly dropped dead on a bike ride I luckily had to skipped because of a broken collarbone at that time. Got myself an Apple watch that can take an ECG.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

I hate to be morbid, but I had two different friends who died suddenly
of heart attacks on bike rides. The first was only 51 years old (back
when I was about 35). Males in his family had similarly short life
spans. The other was elderly at the time - that is, maybe ten years
younger than I am now.

However, bicycling's health benefits do greatly outweigh its risks. And
I sometime think those who die suddenly of heart attacks are lucky. It's
one of the easier choices.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I absolutely agree about the longer and longer recovery periods as we
age. That matches my experience for both cycling and weight lifting.

Another point related to diet or supplements: I've read several times
that as we age, our need for protein increases. IOW, elderly people
benefit from a diet higher in protein.

I can't say if that's true or not, especially since dietary advice
changes with wind direction, but it seems interesting.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I think that the key word here is "sudden" simply because as one ages
there is physical degradation. The lungs grow less efficient, the
bones become weaker, muscle tone and mass are lessoned, the heart is
less efficient, etc.
However, this is not to say that you may not be able to best the
abilities of your younger days, but that simply means that in your
younger days you weren't fit.
see
https://www.runraceresults.com/AgeGrade.htm
https://runbundle.com/tools/age-grading-calculator
https://thewiredrunner.com/what-are-age-grade-running-times/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

I think that you can tell about your heart health just by the way you feel. But since my lungs limit my VO2MAX I may be in a different position than others. I really don't have any limits to push.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Friel goes into good detail on that issue specifically, including advice on sources and types of protein, in addition to _when_ to eat _what_ in the context of a workout routine.

> I can't say if that's true or not, especially since dietary advice
> changes with wind direction, but it seems interesting.

There is some validity to that, but it's getting better. Exercise science has come an extremely long way in the past decade or so.

[William Crowell]

Sure hope I don't have that, Frank. I am choosing to believe that it was instead syncope, which is supposedly a common symptom of covid.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Syncope is associated as a secondary symptom in Covid, not a direct symptom:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34500351/

(Cue ignorant rant from kunich in 3, 2, 1.......)

[Tom Kunich]

While it is never a bad idea to get a general checkup, I get slow every winter and have to get it back every spring and always have.

[William Crowell]

When the love handles really start to stick out during the winter, Tom, you begin to realize that you might have a bit of a problem getting back into shape when spring comes along.

[Tom Kunich]

What flunkmeister thinks of as ignorant is the information from the CDC. Go to https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm Anyone with the ability to comprehend at a 4th grade level would see that THAT is a CDC site. Scroll down the page until you get to "Options" and "Select a dashboard:" Go to the far right and mark "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Group" and then hit the button "Update Dashboard" Below now will be a series of charts. As it shows, there were no excess deaths from respiratory diseases in 2020. Due to the fact that most respiratory disease are spread in the workplace and we had a lockdown, the levels of respiratory disease deaths in 2021 were up to 25% below normal.

Since covid-19 is a respiratory disease perhaps that stinking crawling cowardly flunkmeister would mind telling us how we had 814,000 excess deaths from covid-19?

When you have a mind that is only fit for following the flock, you are a great target for Fauci.

So tell us you intellectual moron - when you cannot even read, why do you post?

[William Crowell]

Obviously we need Andre to get in here and moderate this dispute!

[Tom Kunich]

We wouldn't need moderation if people that know nothing didn't tell us all they know.

[Jeff Liebermann]

So, now you know why you're "slowing down". I know 3 other people our
age who have been diagnosed with Afib. None of them show any
indications of dropping dead. Symptoms and treatments vary. The bad
news is that there is no "cure", unless you include MAZE surgery,
which hasn't worked well for a friend who got talked into having it.

So, what kinda physical exam did you do? ECG/EKG, Treadmill stress
test, chemical stress test, a week on a cardiac monitor/recorder,
Ouija Board, etc? In other words, are you sure you have Afib, or is a
best guess trying to explain your "feelings of weakness"?

I'll be going for a 3 mile trudge through the hills this morning with
some friends. One of them has Afib and is dealing with it through a
mix of drugs, herbs, Yoga, mediation, and generally avoiding foods and
drinks that tend to cause the heart to "flutter". I'll take notes and
ask him what works.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tom Kunich]

Now Jeff hands out medical advice as easily and he does information on sea level rise being different from coast to coast. And as usual both are as good as their source.

[Joerg]

On 12/25/21 5:14 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?
>

Nah. My medicine on yesterday's ride up to Camino was a Lagunitas IPA at
the Apple Cafe :-)

Like Frank wrote, if really concerned I'd schedule a regular med
check-up and tell the doc about the event.

I had a weak phase a couple of weeks ago. Powered up towards Camino and
had to turn around after 5mi because I really felt woozy. I didn't even
finish my sandwich which is highly unusual for a "let's wolf it down"
hyper-diner like me. Slept a whole day ... gone, all fine again. Next
ride no problems.

BTW, the El Dordao Trail required us to shoulder the bikes and climb
over fallen trees, around 10 of them. Never seen it this bad. A
volunteer was aready busy cutting up some with a battery-operated saw so
it might be better in a few days. Maybe do that trail for a less
strenuous exercise to get back into the groove? All you'd have to do is
cycle up China Garden and enter the trail where Gilmore is, then head
east. It's paved almost all the way to Camino but you still can't
(legally) cross Hwy 50 up there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/7/2022 12:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 07:38:07 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 8:27:56 AM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 5:14:20 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>>>> So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?
>>> I'd schedule a regular checkup with a physician. I could talk about one guy who had a similar but less radical experience - his
>>> normal training ride suddenly became quite a bit slower. He thought "I'm out of shape" but he happened to have an annual
>>> physical coming up. That physical exam showed atrial fibrillation.
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>> "That physical exam showed atrial fibrillation."
>> Sure hope I don't have that, Frank. I am choosing to believe that it was instead syncope, which is supposedly a common symptom of covid.
>
> So, now you know why you're "slowing down". I know 3 other people our
> age who have been diagnosed with Afib. None of them show any
> indications of dropping dead. Symptoms and treatments vary. The bad
> news is that there is no "cure", unless you include MAZE surgery,
> which hasn't worked well for a friend who got talked into having it.

I know of at least three people who have or had Afib. Their symptoms
varied tremendously. One said on days she is in Afib she doesn't have
the energy to get off the couch. Another has had it for many years,
treats it with medication (I don't know what kind, other than
anti-clotting drugs) and simply accepts the fact that she's become the
slowest bicyclist among all our friends. A third person had only mild
decreases in athletic performance, but had it completely cured by a MAZE
ablation.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

From the Mayo Clinic; "Atrial fibrillation (A-fib) is an irregular and often very rapid heart rhythm (arrhythmia) that can lead to blood clots in the heart. A-fib increases the risk of stroke, heart failure and other heart-related complications.

During atrial fibrillation, the heart's upper chambers (the atria) beat chaotically and irregularly — out of sync with the lower chambers (the ventricles) of the heart. For many people, A-fib may have no symptoms. However, A-fib may cause a fast, pounding heartbeat (palpitations), shortness of breath or weakness."

As you can see although many people have some rather depressing symptoms, many people are asymptomatic and the atrial fibrillations are detected by their doctors.

It does increase the chances of heart attack by 5 times but since heart attacks aren't particularly a common cause of death, that is a little misleading. They can tell you that 35 heart attacks occur every minute in the US but with most of them occurring in the illegal alien population, that isn't especially enlightening.

IF you have atrial fibrillation at a time where a doctor or hospital can detect it, it is nearly 100% controllable. But in most people it usually doesn't last for more than a couple of minutes at the most. You can't detect what isn't occurring.

[John B.]

But Tommy, you say that "heart attacks aren't particularly a common
cause of death" ands I read that heart attacks, i.e. CVD -
Cardiovascular Disease - is the leading cause of death in the U.S.
with something like 868,662 deaths in the U.S., i 2017. And is the
leading cause of death globally with 18.6 million deaths in 2019.
https://www.heart.org/-/media/phd-files-2/science-news/2/2021-heart-and-stroke-stat-update/2021_heart_disease_and_stroke_statistics_update_fact_sheet_at_a_glance.pdf
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33309175/

Or, is this perhaps like the 2nd degree burns from the revolvers that
you wrote about? And when questioned for details you adroitly change
the subject and offer insults in proof of your statements.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/
"Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the United States, causing about 1 in 4 deaths."

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:04:52 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(chomp...)

>I'll be going for a 3 mile trudge through the hills this morning with
>some friends. One of them has Afib and is dealing with it through a
>mix of drugs, herbs, Yoga, mediation, and generally avoiding foods and
>drinks that tend to cause the heart to "flutter". I'll take notes and
>ask him what works.

I survived the walk and took notes.. My friend (age=79), who has Afib
is taking:
- Lisinopril 5mg/day ACE inhibitor
- Diltiazem 120mg/day Calcium-channel blocker to lower blood pressure.
- Magnesium supplement. He didn't recall the type or amount. I think
it was Bluebonnet Chelated Magnesium 200mg.
- Taurine (See below).
Avoid caffeine and alcohol.

The first two are for general heart health and to reduce BP, which was
a little on the high side. Not sure about the magnesium. The Taurine
is the main drug that eventually controlled Afib. The problem is that
the doctor had to increase the dosage well above the recommended
3,000mg/day maximum in order to get results. At this time, it's
3,000mg twice per day. I'm not sure exactly what it does, but no Afib
incidents or side effects for about 3 months seems to indicate that
it's working. My friend is a vegetarian which has very little
Taurine, which might explain the high dosage. His doctor mentioned
that he plans to reduce the dosage after a few more months.

A former ladyfriend also has Afib. She's a real pill popper so I
hesitate to itemize what she's taking. It took about a year to
determine which drugs and foods seem to work. The dosage also changes
every time the doctor runs a blood test (every 6 months).

I don't know how this will affect your bicycle riding. This article
hints that strenuous exercise is a bad idea if you have Afib:
<https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/atrial-fibrillation/features/afib-heart-personal-stories>
See section under lifestyle changes:
"He still gets regular exercise, but he doesn’t do prolonged, intense
cardio anymore."

Hopefully, this might provide some starting points for your research.
You might want to find an Afib related mailing list or forum such as:
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/AtrialFibrillationSupportForum/>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=afib+forum>

Good luck.

[William Crowell]

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 9:05:02 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:

No, actually Jeff I may be in denial about it because, right now and until proven otherwise, I am attributing it to covid-related syncope. Of course from past exchanges with you I do recognize that you have a lot of medical expertise, so I have given your recommendations a lot of consideration. I have avoided going to the doctor because I don't think I'd want to follow their treatment recommendations in any event, which tends to make them mad at you, and it is better to stay on good terms with them, so you can avail yourself of their services later, when it inevitably becomes necessary. And, dadgummit, I really do need to stop drinking coffee, but I hate to do it.

[Tom Kunich]

> https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/
> "Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the United States, causing about 1 in 4 deaths."

More words of wisdom from the bookkeeper.

[Tom Kunich]

> "So, now you know why you're "slowing down".
> No, actually Jeff I may be in denial about it because, right now and until proven otherwise, I am attributing it to covid-related syncope. Of course from past exchanges with you I do recognize that you have a lot of medical expertise, so I have given your recommendations a lot of consideration. I have avoided going to the doctor because I don't think I'd want to follow their treatment recommendations in any event, which tends to make them mad at you, and it is better to stay on good terms with them, so you can avail yourself of their services later, when it inevitably becomes necessary. And, dadgummit, I really do need to stop drinking coffee, but I hate to do it.

Damn it! Read this. Stop believing all the fucking lies about covid-19 which is less dangerous than the seasonal flu. https://www.declinemagazine.com/mtb/average-cycling-speed-by-age/

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 05:28:59 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
(chomp...)

>On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 9:05:02 AM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>"So, now you know why you're "slowing down".

>No, actually Jeff I may be in denial about it because, right now and until proven otherwise, I am attributing it to covid-related syncope.

Sigh. Long ago, I was designing marine radios. One day, I introduced
a new term into the lab, "parasitic oscillations". Soon, everyone in
the lab faced with a problem that they were to lazy to track down with
test equipment decided that it must be caused by "parasitic
oscillations". It's all part of "the first step to solving a problem
is to blame someone (or something)".

That's why I asked you to disclose how you knew you have Afib. It
usually shows up on an ECG or when testing a blood pressure meter. ECG
will show an erratic heartbeat while the BP meter will complain that
it can't get an accurate reading, or might have an indicator that
shows it has detected Afib. Pick one of the following tests and do
your own tests:
<https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/atrial-fibrillation/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20350630>
I have a cheap pulse oximeter. I also have PVC's (premature
ventricular contractions) which causes an irregular heartbeat. It's
quite different from Afib, but the pulse oximeter responds in the same
way by refusing to produce a valid reading. Along with a BP meter,
it's a cheap and portable indication that you might have a problem.

I used to have an earlier version of one of these:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/114862857994>
It has two electrodes built into the case and uses the voltage
detected between the hands to produce an EKG of sorts. I learned
quite a bit about interpreting the graph and recognizing PVC's. Forget
about sending the a recording to your cardiologist. They want
something better. When the former ladyfriend developed Afib, I gave
it to her. Anyway, get something portable where you can run a
self-test on your pump and plumbing at the end of a ride and see if it
shows something unusual. Look for low blood oxygenation, erratic
pulse, low blood pressure, very high heart rate, etc.

If you are a genuine paranoid, are looking for possible new problems,
or have a distrust of medical diagnostics, you can run your own tests:
<https://www.lifelinescreening.com/screening-services/atrial-fibrillation-screening>
I needed a cheap test for constricted leg arteries, so I had them do
some of the test. It didn't show much, but was useful as a double
check. About $100.

I'm also a big fan of do-it-myself blood testing:
<https://www.directlabs.com>
I run a metabolic panel and PSA test every 6 months. The most recent
test cost me $101. Such tests have found several problems long before
any symptoms or before they would have appeared in a regular checkup.

I've also had some experience with a genuine syncope after a triple
bypass operation in 2001. Unfortunately, it was defecation syncope
where I would faint while taking a crap. After some dizziness,
everything would go white, and I would wake up a few seconds later on
the bathroom floor. Since nobody had a clue what was causing it or
how to stop it from happening, I ignored the problem and it
disappeared after about a year. If you didn't feel like fainting,
it's not a syncope.

>Of course from past exchanges with you I do recognize that you
>have a lot of medical expertise, so I have given your recommendations
>a lot of consideration.

Not really. I know quite a bit about some aspects of medicine, but
lack general knowledge. Much of my medical education came from double
checking EVERYTHING the doctor says. This has probably saved my life
at least twice. I suggest you do the same.

>I have avoided going to the doctor because I don't think I'd want
>to follow their treatment recommendations in any event, which tends
>to make them mad at you, and it is better to stay on good terms
>with them, so you can avail yourself of their services later, when
>it inevitably becomes necessary.

Yep, that's a problem. If you don't want to hear the bad news, simply
don't tell the doctors. It's a dangerous way to run your life because
you probably don't know enough about Afib or whatever is causing your
alleged problem to make proper decisions. You may have had difficulty
finding a compatible doctor. I've been very fortunate in avoiding
doctors who try to micro manage my life. I've juggled doctors a few
times. If you want to run your own diagnosis and treatment, where the
doctor is only an advisor, just tell the doctor and see if you need to
find a replacement.

>And, dadgummit, I really do need to stop drinking coffee, but I hate to do it.

Coffee tends to irritate my hemorrhoids. I switched to tea about 10
years ago, but still drink decaf about once every 2 weeks. Try
switching to boiled water with your favorite additives for a while.
You'll probably get tired of that in about a month or two. Then,
switch to herbal tea (no caffeine), which will seem like a huge
improvement over water. It took me about 6 months to get used to not
being totally alert in the morning. I solved that by getting a less
obnoxious alarm clock and training friends and customer to not bug me
early in the morning.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 7:52:00 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 10:38:09 AM UTC-5, William Crowell wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 8:27:56 AM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 5:14:20 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> > > > > So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?
> > > > I'd schedule a regular checkup with a physician. I could talk about one guy who had a similar but less radical experience - his
> > > > normal training ride suddenly became quite a bit slower. He thought "I'm out of shape" but he happened to have an annual
> > > > physical coming up. That physical exam showed atrial fibrillation.
> > > >
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > > "That physical exam showed atrial fibrillation."
> > > Sure hope I don't have that, Frank. I am choosing to believe that it was instead syncope, which is supposedly a common symptom of covid.
> > Syncope is associated as a secondary symptom in Covid, not a direct symptom:
> >
> > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34500351/
> >
> > (Cue ignorant rant from kunich in 3, 2, 1.......)

> What flunkmeister thinks of as ignorant is the information from the CDC. Go to https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
> Anyone with the ability to comprehend at a 4th grade level would see that THAT is a CDC site.

And it would take someone with less than a 4th grade reading level to believe you actually understand that website, let alone any of the data presented. Your inability to realize that the information you link either disproves your own claim, or doesn't mention it at all is legendary.

> Scroll down the page until you get to "Options" and
> "Select a dashboard:" Go to the far right and mark "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Group" and then hit the button "Update Dashboard" Below now
> will be a series of charts. As it shows, there were no excess deaths from respiratory diseases in 2020.

No, the chart does _not_ show there were no excess deaths. Those charts are "Weekly counts of deaths due to select causes of death", not "the number of excess deaths". Besides that, the 2020 data very clearly show a significant number of deaths over all other years in the data sets presented during the peak of the outbreak in april 2020, and the 2021 data shows a consistently higher number from august through october than the previous years.

Enter yet another of tommy's character flaws - willful misrepresentation of facts (i.e, a fucking liar): If you were honest about presenting excess death data, you would have checked the button for "Excess deaths with and without COVID-19", not "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Group". Then it would be plain to anyone reading that the number of excess deaths due to covid 19 - very clearly represented by the blue columns - dramatically exceeds the upper bounds of the predictions (the red line).

> Due to the fact that most respiratory disease
> are spread in the workplace and we had a lockdown, the levels of respiratory disease deaths in 2021 were up to 25% below normal.
>
> Since covid-19 is a respiratory disease perhaps that stinking crawling cowardly flunkmeister would mind telling us how we had 814,000 excess deaths from covid-19?

Probably by reminding the slimy lying piece of shit tommy that he intentionally told people to look in the wrong place for the data, and that the real data shows exactly how we've had over 800K deaths from Covid.

>
> When you have a mind that is only fit for following the flock, you are a great target for Fauci.

And you have a mind only fit for blindly following a charlatan like trump.

>
> So tell us you intellectual moron - when you cannot even read, why do you post?

You tell us, sparky, when _every_ time you post a claim and half a dozen people in this forum point to proof that you're wrong, why do you continue to not only make an ass out of yourself, but then to double down on the false claims?

The north lost every battle in the civil war before the gettysburg address?
Ignorant claims about testing cables with PWM?
"light wire"?

Keep flailing sparky - just remember, the reactions to you vary from between pity to disgust.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

He'll slink away with his tail between his legs like he always does.

[Tom Kunich]

Why don't you tell us why the CDC shows that there were NO excess deaths from respiratory diseases in 2020 and because respiratory diseases are normally contracted in the workplace and no one was working that the levels of respiratory diseases was up to 25% BELOW normal?

The fact that you don't know anything at all and insist on making your stupid and childish little comments does show everyone what you are.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

The CDC does _not_ show there were no excess deaths. Those charts are "Weekly counts of deaths due to select causes of death", not "the number of excess deaths". Besides that, the 2020 data very clearly show a significant number of deaths over all other years in the data sets presented during the peak of the outbreak in april 2020, and the 2021 data shows a consistently higher number from august through october than the previous years.

Enter yet another of tommy's character flaws - willful misrepresentation of facts (i.e, a fucking liar): If you were honest about presenting excess death data, you would have checked the button for "Excess deaths with and without COVID-19", not "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Group". Then it would be plain to anyone reading that the number of excess deaths due to covid 19 - very clearly represented by the blue columns - dramatically exceeds the upper bounds of the predictions (the red line).

> The fact that you don't know anything at all and insist on making your stupid and childish little comments does show everyone what you are.

The fact that you choose to ignore valid data and resort to lying by intentionally misrepresenting valid data and insist on making your stupid and childish little comments does show everyone what you are: a slimy lying piece of shit.

[Tom Kunich]

I have shown everyone here how to look this up on the CDC statistics pages and everyone here could see there was NO above AVERAGE (2015-2019) levels of respiratory disease in either 2020 or 2021. So perhaps you can SHOW US the CDC pages that show otherwise?

[Tom Kunich]

Junkmeister neither knows what he is talking about and prefers to lie than to actually know anything I will show it to everyone again.

Go to https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm You will note from the address that it is a CDC Federal Government site.

Scroll down the resulting page until you arrive at "Options" and "Select a dashboard:"
Below this is a chart showing what is reportedly 814,000 reported deaths from covid-19.

Back at "Select a dashboard:" go over to the far right and hit the marker on "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Group" THIS is a count entered by the actual CDC workers and not Fauci's imagination.

Hit the button "Update Dashboard". This will change the charts below and looking at that you will see NO INCREASE IN DEATHS FROM RESPIRATORY diseases at all in 2020 (there was a relatively small and late flu season but as you can see, it doesn't match the levels of previous years). Next to this is a charge showing excess deaths from circulatory diseases which we know because of the average age of death of those dying. When you have people locked in a medical facility and you don't allow their friends and family in to visit them they simply give up and die. At one local facility they have about 20 health care workers before the claimed pandemic. Kicked out most of these health care workers and then when they returned to work most of the older people had died from lack of care and loneliness. Now there are THREE workers there because all of the residents are now dead.

Now to further show what this useless POS Flunkmeister is, go back up to the dashboard settings and mark "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Subgroup" and push the "Update Dashboard" button again.

New charts appear below. You may have to make sure that the "select cause of death group" is set on "Respiratory Diseases"

Again you can see that the only deaths were from a late flu season and there were NOI OTHER RESPIRATORY disease deaths causes.

When you have the most ignorant spawn of a chicken making his clucking noises you know that flunkmeister is talking.

This is ABSOLUTE proof from the CDC that there were NO respiratory deaths above average from a so-called respiratory disease pandemic.

This was ALL about giving the Democrats a change to commit election fraud and nothing else. This was a chance for Australian politicians to turn Australians, once the bravest people on the planet, into crying, whining little babies they could then control with a tyranny. This was all about European WHO following the orders of the Chinese Communist Party and being paid to invent a pandemic that occurred on a very minor level into a death march that hadn't happened since the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic which oddly enough left the survivors with an inherited near immunity to ALL corona viruses.

Now can you imagine this fool, flunkmeister telling you that there has been a pandemic when PLAINLY there hasn't been? There hasn't been 814,000 people killed by covid-19. Which isn't to say that this isn't a non-existent illness but rather one that is NOT deadly. That number of excessive deaths would be a 25% increase in deaths and there wouldn't be a person in this entire world that didn't have close family dropping over dead. The roads would actually be clogged with funeral processions.

So what is the real story? The NIH was giving $50,000 to any doctor or medical facility that reported a covid-19 death. So that is what they did. Want proof of this? Here's another CDC chart that they stopped updating when it showed too clearly what was happening. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html

The red line at the end is supposedly representing covid-19 deaths. But you can see that there was NO GROWTH IN TOTAL DEATHS.

The great intellectuals here like flunkmeister, Seaton, Jeff and Frank are perfectly willing to lie to you because that is what they do.

Remember them telling you that masks work because I said that they don't?

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

abstract - “evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory -confirmed influenza.”

Page three: “our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory – confirmed influenza”

Page four: “face masks have not demonstrated protection against laboratory-confirmed influenza”

Also a paper by Dr. Jim Meehan MD”

Covid 19 is about viral transmission. Surgical and cloth masks do nothing to prevent viral transmission”

So there you have complete evidence of the hoax that the Chinese Communist Party via Obama through Biden and Fauci have put your through.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/10/2022 5:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> I have shown everyone here how to look this up on the CDC statistics pages...

No, you haven't, Tom. You've posted that nonsense at least a dozen
times, and more than a dozen people have told you that you're either
reading the numbers wrong, or (more likely) just blathering to avoid
admitting your mistakes.

Again, it's a little like the idiotic parents proudly watching the
marching band parade by" "Oh look, dear, everyone is out of step except
our little Tommy!"

Except in this case, it's Tommy himself claiming everyone else is out of
step.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, well, perhaps you'd like to show us what the numbers actually are than telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. But the fact is that all of the information I've given you has been directly from the CDC and all you've shown is the ability to cry and call names.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/deaths.htm
Mortality in the United States, 2020
Deaths 3,383,729
Age-adjusted death rate 835.4
Life expectancy 77.0

https://www.prb.org/usdata/indicator/deaths/chart/ (PRB is Population Reference Bureau)
Go down this page a little bit and you come to the total number of people dying in the USA and every state from 2013 to 2019. There is an increase of 20-30 thousand every year. Makes sense because the USA population increases by thousands every year. So a few thousand extra die every year too. Logical to have more deaths with more total population. But then 2020 comes along and you have an extra 500,000 dead people. 2,854,838 dead people in 2019 to 3,383,729 dead people in 2020. 528,891 extra dead people in 2020.

Tommy boy, when you have an EXTRA 528 thousand dead people in 2020, it means something is happening. Covid-19 maybe?

[John B.]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:11:39 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

Well, you might try
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku
which states that as of 7 Jan 2022 there were some 825,083 deaths due
to Covid-19
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

I will ask you again - when that CDC article posting you cited showed that a TOTAL of 2,380 died from covid-19, exactly where is your 528.000 coming from? Also, since I was basing my calculations on the 2019 death total of 2.8 and it now appears that the CDC is quoting 338.000 that makes the percentage of deaths from covid that they stated FAR lower the the 85 thousandths of a percent than I calculated.

Seems like you just can't catch a break.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Once again, I am not following you Tommy boy. If you click on the two websites I listed in my post, it shows 3,383,729 people died in the USA in 2020. CDC says this. And my other link lists the number of dead people every year from 2013 to 2019. In 2019 it says 2,854,838 people died. Subtract the two total deaths and you get a 528,891 increase in deaths from 2019 to 2020. 528 thousand extra dead people. Seems like a big change in dead people from one year to the next. Due to Covid-19 maybe?

[John B.]

But Tommy, the following - see referenced site
tells a different story
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku
Note the first line which reads
As of 01/06/2022
Period 01/01/2020 - 01/01/2022
By Total in the U.S., all sexes, all ages, Covid Deaths 852,083 deaths

If you are having problems with the column titles just above the chart
is the explanation for the data in each column.
Now tell us "what the numbers actually are then telling me".

Schizophrenia is a severe mental disorder which is characterized by a
wide range of unusual behaviors: hearing voices (hallucinations) and
distorted or false perception, often bizarre beliefs.
Two of the most common symptoms are:
Delusions, beliefs that can persist even after they have been proved
to be false or unreasonable.
Disorganized thinking: Sometimes, the person is unable to think
clearly.
https://tinyurl.com/2p93acen
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

And again, because tommy it takes tommy multiple tries to get anything right:

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I know you dropped out of high school, but a chart showing "weekly number of deaths by cause group" is not the same thing as "number of excess deaths".

Enter yet another of tommy's character flaws - willful misrepresentation of facts (i.e, a fucking liar): If you were honest about presenting excess death data, you would have checked the button for "Excess deaths with and without COVID-19", not "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Group". Then it would be plain to anyone reading that the number of excess deaths due to covid 19 - very clearly represented by the blue columns - dramatically exceeds the upper bounds of the predictions (the red line).

>

> Hit the button "Update Dashboard". This will change the charts below and looking at that you will see NO INCREASE IN DEATHS FROM RESPIRATORY diseases at all in 2020 (there was a relatively small and late flu season but as you can see, it doesn't match the levels of previous years). Next to this is a charge showing excess deaths from circulatory diseases which we know because of the average age of death of those dying. When you have people locked in a medical facility and you don't allow their friends and family in to visit them they simply give up and die. At one local facility they have about 20 health care workers before the claimed pandemic. Kicked out most of these health care workers and then when they returned to work most of the older people had died from lack of care and loneliness. Now there are THREE workers there because all of the residents are now dead.
>
> Now to further show what this useless POS Flunkmeister is, go back up to the dashboard settings and mark "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Subgroup" and push the "Update Dashboard" button again.
>
> New charts appear below. You may have to make sure that the "select cause of death group" is set on "Respiratory Diseases"
>
> Again you can see that the only deaths were from a late flu season and there were NOI OTHER RESPIRATORY disease deaths causes.
>
> When you have the most ignorant spawn of a chicken making his clucking noises you know that flunkmeister is talking.
>
> This is ABSOLUTE proof from the CDC that there were NO respiratory deaths above average from a so-called respiratory disease pandemic.

And again, because it takes multiple hits upside his head before he realize he's being hit:

Enter yet another of tommy's character flaws - willful misrepresentation of facts (i.e, a fucking liar): If you were honest about presenting excess death data, you would have checked the button for "Excess deaths with and without COVID-19", not "Weekly Number of Deaths by Cause Group". Then it would be plain to anyone reading that the number of excess deaths due to covid 19 - very clearly represented by the blue columns - dramatically exceeds the upper bounds of the predictions (the red line).

>

> This was ALL about giving the Democrats a change to commit election fraud and nothing else. This was a chance for Australian politicians to turn Australians, once the bravest people on the planet, into crying, whining little babies they could then control with a tyranny. This was all about European WHO following the orders of the Chinese Communist Party and being paid to invent a pandemic that occurred on a very minor level into a death march that hadn't happened since the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic which oddly enough left the survivors with an inherited near immunity to ALL corona viruses.
>
> Now can you imagine this fool, flunkmeister telling you that there has been a pandemic when PLAINLY there hasn't been? There hasn't been 814,000 people killed by covid-19. Which isn't to say that this isn't a non-existent illness but rather one that is NOT deadly. That number of excessive deaths would be a 25% increase in deaths and there wouldn't be a person in this entire world that didn't have close family dropping over dead. The roads would actually be clogged with funeral processions.
>
> So what is the real story? The NIH was giving $50,000 to any doctor or medical facility that reported a covid-19 death. So that is what they did.

The real story is that you're an idiot and a liar.

> Want proof of this? Here's another CDC chart that they stopped updating when it showed too clearly what was happening. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html
>
> The red line at the end is supposedly representing covid-19 deaths. But you can see that there was NO GROWTH IN TOTAL DEATHS.
>
> The great intellectuals here like flunkmeister, Seaton, Jeff and Frank are perfectly willing to lie to you because that is what they do.
>
> Remember them telling you that masks work because I said that they don't?
>
> https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
>
> abstract - “evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory -confirmed influenza.”
>
> Page three: “our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory – confirmed influenza”
>
> Page four: “face masks have not demonstrated protection against laboratory-confirmed influenza”
>
> Also a paper by Dr. Jim Meehan MD”
>
> Covid 19 is about viral transmission. Surgical and cloth masks do nothing to prevent viral transmission”
>
> So there you have complete evidence of the hoax that the Chinese Communist Party via Obama through Biden and Fauci have put your through.

Yup, that was a chinese hoax alright, except you're the only one that fell for it. That paper - as has been show to you before - was by a chinese grad student working on her thesis for shanghai university, the work was done in 2015, and the paper was published in 2019, and was focused on influenza. It isn't the CDCs work, you fucking liar.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

You've done nothing but lie about it

[Tom Kunich]

Are you aware that covid-19 is caused by the SARS-Cov-2 virus that is actually a CORONA VIRUS almost identical to the influenza virus? Why are you calling the actual CDC opinions and studies "lies"? Do you feel so bad at continuously being wrong that you have to resort to denial?

The CDC page I cited says that SINCE 2/1/2020 (a month before the first case was discovered) the TOTAL number of deaths from "other respiratory diseases" until today is 6,525 deaths. This is updated DAILY. This means that with a population of yearly deaths of 3.4 million that 6,525/ 6,800,000 = .00096. And over HALF of those are smokers with emphysema.

It must be pretty bad to know nothing and be reduced to simple denial. Repeat after me, "LOTS OF PEOPLE DIED AND IT HAD TO BE COVID BECAUSE MY HERO FAUCI SAID SO."

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

If that were true, I would be. But as usual, you're full of shit. Unlike you, I did my homework rather than pulling opinions out of my ass and claiming they were facts:
"the genomes of these 2 viruses differ in polarity and segmentation. Influenza virus is comprised of 8 single-stranded, negative-sense, viral RNA segments. SARS-CoV-2 has single-stranded, non-segmented, positive-sense, viral RNA"
https://asm.org/Articles/2020/July/COVID-19-and-the-Flu
(I posted this ink before when you made that stupid claim. You were wrong then, and you're wrong now)

> Why are you calling the actual CDC opinions and studies "lies"?

1), I called _you_ a liar, not the CDC.
2) there is a disclaimer at the bottom of the page if you had bothered to do more than cherry-pick data: "The conclusions, findings, and opinions expressed by authors contributing to this journal do not necessarily reflect the official position of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the Public Health Service, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, or the authors' affiliated institutions. "

> Do you feel so bad at continuously being wrong that you have to resort to denial?

You mean the way you keep claiming it's a CDC study, and it isn't? "The conclusions, findings, and opinions expressed by authors contributing to this journal do not necessarily reflect the official position of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the Public Health Service, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, or the authors' affiliated institutions. "

>
> The CDC page I cited says that SINCE 2/1/2020 (a month before the first case was discovered)
> the TOTAL number of deaths from "other respiratory diseases" until today is 6,525 deaths.
> This is updated DAILY. This means that with a population of yearly deaths of 3.4 million that 6,525/ 6,800,000 = .00096.
> And over HALF of those are smokers with emphysema.

"other respiratory diseases" doesn't include covid in these studies you idiot. Covid is listed as its own cause of death.

>
> It must be pretty bad to know nothing and be reduced to simple denial.

You tell me, you're the one being proven wrong over _every_ claim you make.

> Repeat after me, "LOTS OF PEOPLE DIED AND IT HAD TO BE COVID BECAUSE MY HERO FAUCI SAID SO."

REpeat after me, "MY NAME IS TOMMY KUNICH. I ENJOY MAKING A FOOL OF MYSELF ON THE INTERNET BUT I SHOULD REALLY SHUT THE FUCK UP"

[Tom Kunich]

[Tom Kunich]

You become curiouser and curiouser. I say the covd-19 virus is a corona virus almost identical to influenza and you cite a page that proves my point. Pneumonia is the largest killer of older people in the US and that stupid chart says that it accounts for only 1.8% if deaths. Then why does this CDC chart say otherwise? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html The problem with you is that you expect Fauci to tell you the truth. You worship Fauci. He claims that all the people that normally die of pneumonia are in fact dying from covid-19 and you jump right up to agree with him.

I told you that I knew that you couldn't detect covid-19 with PCR and your comment is "what the hell do you know". So I took it to the NIH. https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html Well, what I know is that you're a shit eating dog that barks at the moon.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

lol...right, because ""the genomes of these 2 viruses differ in polarity and segmentation. Influenza virus is comprised of 8 single-stranded, negative-sense, viral RNA segments. SARS-CoV-2 has single-stranded, non-segmented, positive-sense, viral RNA" " means their almost identical. Pretty bad attempt at denial, even for you.

> Pneumonia is the largest killer of older people in the US and that stupid chart says that it accounts for only 1.8% if deaths.

That's because as usual, you're wrong.

> Then why does this CDC chart say otherwise? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html

As usual you don't understand the data you link. That chart _only_ lists mortality due to COVID-19, pneumonia, and influenza, not _all_ causes of mortality.

> The problem with you is that you expect Fauci to tell you the truth.

I do expect that, and to this point I have very little reason to not trust him.

> You worship Fauci.

nope.

> He claims that all the people that normally die of pneumonia are in fact dying from covid-19

Sure, this is right up there with 'elon musk thinks global warming is a hoax'. Got a link?

> and you jump right up to agree with him.

If he said that, I wouldn't agree, but he didn't so.....

> I told you that I knew that you couldn't detect covid-19 with PCR and your comment is "what the hell do you know".

Lie. That never happened. Prove that I made any comment at any time about detecting covid with PCR or shut the fuck up.

> So I took it to the NIH. https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html Well, what I know is that you're a shit eating dog that barks at the moon.

Well, what I know is that you're a lying piece of shit that claims I wrote something that I never did, then posts something to prove it wrong and crows about how you were right.

Shut the fuck up tommy.

[Tom Kunich]

I showed you on that citation that you made yourself that Fauci is now claiming that only 1.6% of people are dying from pneumonia. The facts are that pneumonia is the chief cause of natural deaths from old age. And old age is 85% of all deaths. But since your God, Fauci says so, it must be true. Before Fauci got involved the charts and definitions looked like this: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html but you know better. As I said, come and shut me up. Or better yet, give me your true name and I will come over and let you try to shut me up. How's that for a deal? It won't even cost you plane fare.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

That was from the CDC. Fauci doesn't tell the CDC what to publish. I know you like to think otherwise, but you'd be wrong _again_.

> The facts are that pneumonia is the chief cause of natural deaths from old age. And old age is 85% of all deaths.

Then present a chart showing cause of death by age.

> But since your God, Fauci says so, it must be true. Before Fauci got involved the charts and definitions looked like this: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/04102020/nchs-data.html

BZZZT, sorry sparky, that chart doesn't prove you point, _only_ lists mortality due to COVID-19, pneumonia, and influenza, not _all_ causes of mortality and not by age.

> but you know better. As I said, come and shut me up.

You aren't worth the plane fare, and I have a life. I don't threaten people over the internet, especially not over something they said.

> Or better yet, give me your true name and I will come over and let you try to shut me up. How's that for a deal? It won't even cost you plane fare.

Hey, you're the technology genius, I've left plenty of clues, you should be able to figure it out. And if you think I'm afraid of a physically and mentally addled 77 year old idiot coming across the country to find me and assault me, you're more deluded and stupid that I thought. Especially considering how the judge would find your 'rationale' for the assault at your bail hearing. Besides that, you'll never get here. You'd have to get on a plane, and they make you wear a mask. So shut the fuck up, tommy.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 12:41:29 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pneumonia is the largest killer of older people in the US and that
> stupid chart says that it accounts for only 1.8% if deaths.

CDC (2018). Leading causes of death including age distribution:
<https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html>
<https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm>
For age 65+, influenza / pneumonia are 8th on the list.
Heart disease and malignant neoplasms (cancers) get 1st and 2nd place
with each contributing about 10 times the fatalities in the 65+ age
group. Note that 2018 was before Covid so it won't appear in the
statistics.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Once more Tommy is a liar. Or wrong if you want to be kind. I don't.

Pneumonia killing old people is in the top 10 for killers. But its near the end.

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html
Go down to the Causes of Death by Age Group and open it up.

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2018-508.pdf
Pneumonia and influenza is #8 in 2018. Killed 48,888 of 65+ age group.

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2017-508.pdf
#8 in 2017. Killed 46,862 old people.

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2016-508.pdf
#8 in 2016. Killed 42,479 of the 65+ old folks.

The CDC has these PDF files back to 2005. In 2005 Pneumonia and Influenza was the #6 killer of 65+ year old people. Killed 55,453 in 2005.

[Tom Kunich]

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 7:34:46 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 12:41:29 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Pneumonia is the largest killer of older people in the US and that
> > stupid chart says that it accounts for only 1.8% if deaths.
> CDC (2018). Leading causes of death including age distribution:
> <https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html>
> <https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm>
> For age 65+, influenza / pneumonia are 8th on the list.
> Heart disease and malignant neoplasms (cancers) get 1st and 2nd place
> with each contributing about 10 times the fatalities in the 65+ age
> group. Note that 2018 was before Covid so it won't appear in the
> statistics.

Well, I guess you will have to see for yourself. And it is coming up on you rapidly.

IF pneumonia is the sole cause of death, it is the tenth cause of death in the age groups of 59-72. But it is almost NEVER the sole cause of death as I have repeatedly said because IF the only illness is pneumonia it is probably bacterial pneumonia and treatable. But pneumonia comes on when people are so sick and ill from circulatory diseases that it cannot be treated. Why would you need me to repeat this for the 100th time?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

We don't need you to repeat it and we wish you would stop. Shut the fuck up tommy.

[Tom Kunich]

Still proving to everyone that you don't know shit? Still showing your cowardice with insults that you don't dare back up?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 10:42:04 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:13:26 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 7:34:46 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 12:41:29 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Pneumonia is the largest killer of older people in the US and that
>> > > stupid chart says that it accounts for only 1.8% if deaths.
>> > CDC (2018). Leading causes of death including age distribution:
>> > <https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html>
>> > <https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm>
>> > For age 65+, influenza / pneumonia are 8th on the list.
>> > Heart disease and malignant neoplasms (cancers) get 1st and 2nd place
>> > with each contributing about 10 times the fatalities in the 65+ age
>> > group. Note that 2018 was before Covid so it won't appear in the
>> > statistics.

>> Well, I guess you will have to see for yourself. And it is coming up on you rapidly.

Yep and it's a good thing because it could purge the gene pool of
anti-vaxxers and other true believers in the word of a former
president:
"FDA Commissioner: ‘Most People’ Will Get Covid-19 Amid Record Surge"
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/01/11/fda-commissioner-most-people-will-get-covid-19-amid-record-surge/>
Just connect the dots on the graph and the only logical path is
eventual global doom and death. That should really get the attention
of the senate health etc committee and panic them into doing something
stupid. "Do something, even if it's wrong".

>> IF pneumonia is the sole cause of death, it is the tenth cause of death in the age groups of 59-72. But it is almost NEVER the sole cause of death as I have repeatedly said because IF the only illness is pneumonia it is probably bacterial pneumonia and treatable. But pneumonia comes on when people are so sick and ill from circulatory diseases that it cannot be treated. Why would you need me to repeat this for the 100th time?

>We don't need you to repeat it and we wish you would stop. Shut the fuck up tommy.

Tom really does need to repeat his claims many times. If he repeats
something over and over, eventually the GUM (great unwashed masses)
will believe the claims. With luck Tom will become the acknowledged
leader or prophet of the new order because whenever someone mentions
COVID, pneumonia, and death in the same sentence, they will instantly
think only of Tom because it feels good (cognitive ease). His claims
don't need to be correct, just repeated often enough to produce an
emotional reaction. That has already happened to me. Every time I
read or hear the word "Torx", I think of Tom and his quest for finding
a metric Torx driver. My subsequent chuckle gives me a very good
feeling.

Actually, claims and buzzwords don't need to be repeated very often.
Here's a video on how it works:
"The Illusion of Truth"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cebFWOlx848> (8:25)

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 19:51:25 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Yes, as Dr. Goebbels said, "Repeat a lie often enough and people will
believe it".

I recently read a study about why people believed things and it seems
that, among other reasons, people are far more likely to believe
something if it is something that they want to be true. Called
“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information
that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts
them.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

And one supposes that the desire to be seen as an all knowing expert
supports the tendency to believe that everything one says must be the
truth.

>
>Actually, claims and buzzwords don't need to be repeated very often.
>Here's a video on how it works:
>"The Illusion of Truth"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cebFWOlx848> (8:25)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:31:42 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I recently read a study about why people believed things and it seems
>that, among other reasons, people are far more likely to believe
>something if it is something that they want to be true. Called
>“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information
>that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts
>them.
>https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
>
>And one supposes that the desire to be seen as an all knowing expert
>supports the tendency to believe that everything one says must be the
>truth.

There's a little more to confirmation bias. People have an
instinctive need for organization, order, and consistency. The degree
of this requirement varies widely from disorder to compulsion, but
it's always there. I can usually tell if I'm going to have a problem
convincing someone or selling them something. If their desk or house
is neatly arranged, with everything carefully organized and in its
place, I don't stand a chance of changing their mind or selling
something they really don't need or want. Their mind is made up in
conformance with prior experience and nothing I say will change it.
However, if the desk and house are randomly arranged, with little
concession to putting things in their proper place, or arranging them
into some semblance of order[1], I can usually change their mind or
sell them something they don't need or want. For the organized
person, their beliefs and lives are build upon the solid foundation of
preconceived notions and early education. For the disorganized
person, the foundation of their beliefs are shaky and can be
undermined given enough time and effort. The church used it with
great success:

"Give me a child till he is seven years old, and I will show you the
man." (Aristotle, St. Ignatius Loyola, and others)

That pretty much describes most people. For a religious school
background, the dogma and teaching are fairly consistent and
self-reinforcing. The doctrines may vary depending on denomination,
sect, or cult, but they tend to all have the same basic teachings.
However, USA public school education is almost random. One teacher
might teach with a communist leftist point of view, while another may
be a near fascist. Give a young student a half dozen such changes in
point of view every day, and they usually become very confused. I
don't know if that's intentional, but the result creates young adults
that have no firm belief foundation and are often easily swayed by the
political/moral/ethical/technical fashion of the moment. I can more
easily convince them of something or sell them something.

I can go on and on with this forever, but not tonight. I'll just add
that there's no such things as an "open mind", "critical thinker",
"intense concentration" or "unbiased opinion". Those who aspire to
practice these things will find it difficult, often necessitating
extraordinary acts of concentration such as the Hindu "quiet the
mind".


[1] I used to do this by inspecting their bookshelves. If the books
are nicely grouped by topic or author, they will be difficult to
convince. If the book organization is random, my arguments might
work. However, this method no longer works because books have been
replaced by electronic media.

[AMuzi]

>'Just connect the dots on the graph and the only logical path is
eventual global doom and death. '

I'll take that bet. Decide on the limits and an end date.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 10:51:33 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 10:42:04 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

> >On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:13:26 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> >> IF pneumonia is the sole cause of death, it is the tenth cause of death in the age groups of 59-72. But it is almost NEVER the sole cause of death as I have repeatedly said because IF the only illness is pneumonia it is probably bacterial pneumonia and treatable. But pneumonia comes on when people are so sick and ill from circulatory diseases that it cannot be treated. Why would you need me to repeat this for the 100th time?
>
> >We don't need you to repeat it and we wish you would stop. Shut the fuck up tommy.
> Tom really does need to repeat his claims many times.

It might help him to remember bogus claims he's made, since he denies writing things that are simply copy/pastes from his posting only a few days old.

> If he repeats
> something over and over, eventually the GUM (great unwashed masses)
> will believe the claims.

In order for that to happen he'd have to have some outlet other than RBT. We know however this forum is the pinnacle of his social life, and no one here buys into his bullshit.

> With luck Tom will become the acknowledged
> leader or prophet of the new order because whenever someone mentions
> COVID, pneumonia, and death in the same sentence, they will instantly
> think only of Tom because it feels good (cognitive ease). His claims
> don't need to be correct, just repeated often enough to produce an
> emotional reaction. That has already happened to me. Every time I
> read or hear the word "Torx", I think of Tom and his quest for finding
> a metric Torx driver. My subsequent chuckle gives me a very good
> feeling.

I missed that whole thread. At least we saw a rare occurance of a Acquiescing Kunich. However, he was obvious so tweaked at making such an error and getting caught, he threatened more physical violence - this time against SMS for making a joke about it:

On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 4:56:29 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 1:53:59 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> > On 4/9/2021 1:28 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I bough two sets of tools from OSH Hardware and one was inches and the other metric. I bought both because they had inch or metric Allan head tools In the process of working on my bike I discovered that the TORX tools which I assumed to be standardized are in fact different from inch sizes to metric. My 3T headset uses the INCH size Torx screw heads and none of the metric kit sized fit.
> > >
> > > There are no SAE or Metric specific Torx bits. Only Torx bits:
> > <snip>
> >
> > Jeff, I was about to put up a craiglist ad for Inch-Sized Torx bits. You
> > just wrecked my sole chance of quick sale to the only possible customer
> > on the planet. Thanks a lot.
> Tell you what Scharf - what if I come down there and shove your face in and then kick your skull in so that you can spend the rest of your life drooling in front of everyone like you do on the Internet?

(and Andre the Ignorant thinks tommy is the poor beleaguered victim of bullying...)

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 10:42:05 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

I will repeat the truth as many times as it takes, so please shut me up you sniveling little coward. November election is the END of people like you.

[Tom Kunich]

https://sage.gab.com/channel/tonyheller/view/trends-in-scientific-fraud-61d1bf97f8860989d7d6004a

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yup tommy's version of an open and fair democratic society - kill anyone that disagrees with you.
You idiots had your chance "END of people like [me]" in 2017 when you had a piss-ant wannabe dictator in the white house and both houses of congress overrun by maga morons. It didn't work then, and it won't work in november. Here's a reminder, stupid, Biden will still be president whether you like it or not. Oh Sure, they'll force impeachment hearings and get enough votes in the senate to sustain the charges, right sparky? Gawd you're an idiot, shut the fuck up.

[Tom Kunich]

Now flunkmeister is explaining to everyone that an election is going to kill him. Well, that is probably true enough for Biden. Let's Go Brandon.

[John B.]

Well, after all, it works, and there is historical precedence...
Remember, Adolph Was elected. And, there were "Camps" in California...
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

[William Crowell]

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 10:05:30 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:

> On 12/25/21 5:14 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > So assume you were 74 years old and for the first time ever were unable to complete your favorite ride (46 miles and 2,600 feet of climbing) due to feelings of weakness. How to know whether it is just the effects of old age, or maybe you had covid and didn't realize it, and you'll be just fine next year? Whatever the case, are there any particular vitamins that would you take, and particular foods that would you eat, to keep the old-ish body strong on the bike in '22?
> >

> Nah. My medicine on yesterday's ride up to Camino was a Lagunitas IPA at
> the Apple Cafe :-)
>
> Like Frank wrote, if really concerned I'd schedule a regular med
> check-up and tell the doc about the event.
>
> I had a weak phase a couple of weeks ago. Powered up towards Camino and
> had to turn around after 5mi because I really felt woozy. I didn't even
> finish my sandwich which is highly unusual for a "let's wolf it down"
> hyper-diner like me. Slept a whole day ... gone, all fine again. Next
> ride no problems.
>
> BTW, the El Dordao Trail required us to shoulder the bikes and climb
> over fallen trees, around 10 of them. Never seen it this bad. A
> volunteer was aready busy cutting up some with a battery-operated saw so
> it might be better in a few days. Maybe do that trail for a less
> strenuous exercise to get back into the groove? All you'd have to do is
> cycle up China Garden and enter the trail where Gilmore is, then head
> east. It's paved almost all the way to Camino but you still can't
> (legally) cross Hwy 50 up there.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"BTW, the El Dordao Trail required us to shoulder the bikes and climb over fallen trees, around 10 of them."

Not only that, Joerg, but there's a big fallen tree totally blocking the trail just before it hits the lower end of Forni Road, so you have to backtrack all the way to Forni and take the road instead. I've got fallen oaks all over my property, too. That snowstorm did a number on them.

[Joerg]

Nah, that one was easy, we scaled it within minutes.

> I've got fallen oaks all over my property, too. That snowstorm did a number on them.
>

Look at the bright side, it's next years's firewood :-)

[William Crowell]

Wow, I don't know how you were able to cyclo-cross through that one, Joerg. I couldn't figure out how to get through it, and had to go back around on Forni Rd.

Some of the oaks that fell on my property were old and dead, so the wood is seasoned and I can burn it this year, but most of them were live trees that will have to be seasoned for a year before burning them.

[Joerg]

We shouldered the bikes and climbed over it. Partially under it with the
bikes sideways. Yes, it's a big tree. We crossed it again on the way
back because I do not like riding Forni Road. Or any such road for that
matter.

>
> Some of the oaks that fell on my property were old and dead, so the wood is seasoned and I can burn it this year,

Depends. I tried to burn some dead stuff but it was still too moist from
all the rains we had a month ago. I like to avoid causing smoke in the
neighborhood.

> but most of them were live trees that will have to be seasoned for a year before burning them.
>

It heats many times. When you haul it, when you split it, when you
schlepp the logs and then again in the wood stove :-)

[Tom Kunich]

I was always bothered by people's desires to only ride a bike and would change their route rather than shoulder the bike and go over an obstacle. After all, we aren't riding horses.

[William Crowell]

You wouldn't believe how big this fallen oak on the bike trail was, Tom, and what a tangled mess it was. It appeared to be a tangled wall of branches about 6 feet high. I didn't see any way to get through it with a bike, and I don't know how Magic Joerg did it.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, not that I ride off-road much anymore, but if I couldn't get over I would go around. But perhaps you had seen so many downed trees that you didn't expect to see much open trail and hence took a route more open.

[William Crowell]

I would like to formally suggest that henceforth Joerg should be known herein as "Magic Joerg".

[Joerg]

You couldn't get around that one, on account of its length and the very
steep terrain left and right. We essentially scoped out a path under and
over the bigger branches and the trunk, and then crunched through. That
is one of the many reasons why I wear rather worn older clothing when
riding. You don't want to cause a tear in a $100 Spandex suit (I don't
wear those anyhow) and it could also expose some, ahem, sensitive body
areas :-)

For people who ride MTB this kind of scaling of objects is fairly
routine. One of us wasn't a mountain biker but despite having to cross
numerous other such downed trees he didn't grouse about it.

Judging by broken lights, reflector pieces and other cycling detritus we
were not the only ones dragging our bikes to the other side of these
fallen trees.

[Joerg]

Nah, there is nothing magic about getting to the other side of such
trees. In fact, I have to be more careful than others. My bike weighs
almost 40lbs with tools, lighting battery and all, and my lower back
isn't all that great.

It did feel a bit like bushwhacking though. Should have taken photos but
for MTB riders this is normal stuff.

[Tom Kunich]

I have a Cannondale Optima gravel bike. It has 37 mm tires on it and they are probably too wide to push through wet gravel. The first ride I took on it I hurt my back and I've been taking road recovery rides since. My back is almost healed now and I'll be able to take it out again with 2/3rds the tire pressure. Rather than gravel I may take it up on hill rides. The roads are hard dirt but not deep gravel. I checked the setup which I thought might have been off a little and that doesn't seem to be the case. It had to be pushing hard wide tires through deep wet gravel.

There is a local route around Lake Chabot that I know very well. Knowing the hard places is a good idea when getting back to dirt after a while away from it.

[Joerg]

I bought a full-suspension MTB mainly because my lower back isn't great.
One day I went from a paved road into a trail and after a mile or so my
back began to hurt. What? Why? Then I realized I had forgotten to switch
on the suspension, both front and rear. I usually have them locked out
for longer pavement sections. Turned them on and within another mile the
back pain started to fade away. The tires are 2.1" or 53mm wide but I
ride with the max allowed pressure of 60psi so they are kind of hard.

The downside is that the suspension does eat a substantial amount of
pedal power. Once during a stop I touched the rear shock. It didn't burn
skin but it was too hot to keep my hand on it.

> There is a local route around Lake Chabot that I know very well.
> Knowing the hard places is a good idea when getting back to dirt
> after a while away from it.
>

Dirt riding out here usually means rough stuff if you want to travel at
a decent speed. Like this, on the trail from Lotus to Folsom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5cjAW_nrl4

Those routes wouldn't be fun on a gravel bike. Also, in summer you have
to schlepp at least one gallon of water which I don't want to have on my
back.

[Tom Kunich]

Because of the amount and size of those rocks, it sure as hell wouldn't. The tires on a gravel bike simply aren't capable of crossing that sort of terrain at any speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WChJ9uG9cY

[Roger Merriman]

Depends a lot on the Gravel bike which range from slightly fatter tired
CX/Endurance road bike, to monster cross, ie MTB or near enough tires.

Also depends on what your background is, generally though Gravel bikes
don’t like rocks like Joerg linked video, line choose/being light on the
bike, something roadies tend not to be, as they tend to be rather rigid and
not move on the bike.

Plus simply slower speeds! For most part if my MTB can roll it so can the
gravel, though I do generally try to not to push the limit too hard as well
though I’m a old MTBer I like remaining rubber side down!

For a very serious look at this…..


https://youtu.be/Q17SFTCMoT8


Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I built many cyclocross bikes and if they were going to be raced I would put 32 mm tires on them. Proper semi-knobbies on them would allow me to ride with the Tuesday-Thursday road group and keep up with them. As Joerg pointed out, full suspension bikes are VERY slow climbers and I often would pass them like they were standing still. Done right I would have such a lead on them that they couldn't catch me on the downhill sections where they would normally excel. The soft dirt of the surrounding hills and the lack of rock fields where suspension really gives them an advantage or super steep rough climbs where the weight distribution of a FS would give them a clear advantage and a CX/Gravel bike ridden well is better over 7/8ths of a course.

[Roger Merriman]

Joerg has his tires at max, they are cheap but sturdy, with DH inner tubes,
no surprise that it’s slow up hills.

MTB are quite variable in climbing speed fastest being XC to Trail and then
Enduro though to Downhill, which are desperately slow up!

XC bikes are more often full suspension as the courses have got more
technical, but are still quick, are road bikes faster on smooth yes but not
by much to be honest, and doesn’t require it to get very rough before the
suspension/fatter tires to be more efficient.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

My experience is that most full suspension bikes are 30+ lbs and they simply cannot have a chance of matching the climbing speed of a 20 lb CX bike. All the more so if they don't have suspension lock=outs.

[Roger Merriman]

A XC MTB will be low 20’s than low 30’s they did used to be a touch lighter
but as things become more technical a compromise is made!

My mid end trail MTB is 33lb give or take which is unlikely to catch many
roadies on anything smooth.

Roger Merriman.

[Joerg]

On 1/21/22 5:40 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

>> My experience is that most full suspension bikes are 30+ lbs and they
>> simply cannot have a chance of matching the climbing speed of a 20 lb CX
>> bike. All the more so if they don't have suspension lock=outs.

A good MTB has lockouts for front and back. The Manitou fork on mine
even lets me dial in the hardness.

>>
> A XC MTB will be low 20’s than low 30’s they did used to be a touch lighter
> but as things become more technical a compromise is made!
>
> My mid end trail MTB is 33lb give or take which is unlikely to catch many
> roadies on anything smooth.
>

My MTB weighs closer to 40lbs. It carries a full tool kit, heavy lock,
lighting battery, and sometimes even homebrew beer.

Anyhow, if my early 80's road bike would ever give up I'd replace it
with a gravel bike, preferably with a steel frame. Mainly because I can
mount wider tires on that. The steel frame of my road bike has endured
many offroad stretches but I can't squeeze a tire much wider than 25mm
in back. Maybe 28mm but only when it's 100% trued and because I also
ride on rougher turf it never is.

[Joerg]

On 1/21/22 10:33 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 1/21/22 5:40 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> My experience is that most full suspension bikes are 30+ lbs and they
>>> simply cannot have a chance of matching the climbing speed of a 20 lb CX
>>> bike. All the more so if they don't have suspension lock=outs.
>
>
> A good MTB has lockouts for front and back. The Manitou fork on mine
> even lets me dial in the hardness.
>
>>>
>> A XC MTB will be low 20’s than low 30’s they did used to be a touch
>> lighter
>> but as things become more technical a compromise is made!
>>
>> My mid end trail MTB is 33lb give or take which is unlikely to catch many
>> roadies on anything smooth.
>>
>
> My MTB weighs closer to 40lbs. It carries a full tool kit, heavy lock,
> lighting battery, and sometimes even homebrew beer.
>

Forgot the picture, here is my MTB, in fairly clean condition:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

[Roger Merriman]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 1/21/22 5:40 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> My experience is that most full suspension bikes are 30+ lbs and they
>>> simply cannot have a chance of matching the climbing speed of a 20 lb CX
>>> bike. All the more so if they don't have suspension lock=outs.
>
>
> A good MTB has lockouts for front and back. The Manitou fork on mine
> even lets me dial in the hardness.
>
>>>
>> A XC MTB will be low 20’s than low 30’s they did used to be a touch lighter
>> but as things become more technical a compromise is made!
>>
>> My mid end trail MTB is 33lb give or take which is unlikely to catch many
>> roadies on anything smooth.
>>
>
> My MTB weighs closer to 40lbs. It carries a full tool kit, heavy lock,
> lighting battery, and sometimes even homebrew beer.

Fairly sure mine is that unladen, I have a bar bag, plus two panniers with
some Allen keys/pump and a tube.

Weight on the flat I suspect makes not a huge difference, though the fact
I’m sat very upright does!

Does climb poorly as you’d expect but my commute is flat.

>
> Anyhow, if my early 80's road bike would ever give up I'd replace it
> with a gravel bike, preferably with a steel frame. Mainly because I can
> mount wider tires on that. The steel frame of my road bike has endured
> many offroad stretches but I can't squeeze a tire much wider than 25mm
> in back. Maybe 28mm but only when it's 100% trued and because I also
> ride on rougher turf it never is.
>

They are probably make good utility bikes realistically a fatter tired
gravel bike would make a better commute bike than the old MTB, as it’s
likely to cut though the wind better, plus though the anti motorbike
barriers!

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/22/2022 9:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> Weight on the flat I suspect makes not a huge difference, though the fact
> I’m sat very upright does!

Agreed. And as I've said, straight bars impose an aero penalty over drop
bars even with the latter ridden on the tops or hoods, because of the
way they rotate one's elbows outwards. Although I suppose that could be
fixed with forward facing handlebar extensions.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

To be fair the commute beastie has a stack of spacers so upright, as
originally and the more modern one is a bit more lower, though by no means
wind cheating though neither are XC race bikes which are lower still.

This said Gravel/road bikes do have a edge on tarmac vs XC MTB though not
as big as one would think, and XC bikes will be faster once it gets off
road, the point is somewhat moveable depending on the Gravel/CX bike but is
again generally before folks might expect ie doesn’t need to be technical.

This said I do like the way the Gravel bike rides, and MTB so the fact that
at certain points on a ride I’d be faster on the other doesn’t bother me!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

My Trek HiFi which was a top end 29er had NO dropouts on the front, and it was quite clumsy to get to the rear dropout

[Tom Kunich]

I just looked at a couple of $10,000+ 29ers and they did not list the weight. This is almost a guarantee that they are 30+ lbs and not 20+

[Joerg]

That's weird because my MTB wasn't super expensive, the list price was
slightly above $2k five six years ago. But it came with good stuff,
Manitou fork and shock. They've held up and I've really used it the way
it was meant, mostly on trails.

[Tom Kunich]

That wasn't a criticism of full suspension bikes. Only an explanation of why they are slower the a cyclocross bike when climbing. I'm heard time and time again about 22 lb full suspension bikes but that is preposterous since the frame of a FS 29er is 6 lbs for a super light and the wheels alone add another 15 lbs for wheels and tires and light disks. The suspension fork is 5 lbs and the group, seat post, pedals, and rear suspension is another 10 lbs minimum. That is 36 lbs for an EXPENSIVE 29er. I used to fly by these guys on uphills all of the time. They would fly by me on the downhills and extremely rough uphills that puts you carrying your CX bike while the 29er had the weight and distribution to continue climbing.

I'm simply saying that there are horses for courses and handing out fake weight numbers isn't fooling anyone that would pay $10,000 for a bike of any sort.

[Roger Merriman]

Very few bike companies list weight, to be honest.

Giant Anthem is claimed 24/25lb depending on size model year and so on.
Fairly stock normal XC bike.

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/giant-anthem-advanced-pro-29-1-review/


Link but plenty more if one looks, and giant are fairly conservative so I’d
expect some others to be lighter.

Roger Merriman.

[John B.]

the really slick kids on the block ride no hands (:-)

(I couldn't resist :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

I don't have any idea where you got those weights. That is so extraordinarily light that everyone would want to brag about it and yet, in NONE of the advertisements I was able to find on line and in Ebay were any weights quoted. That is a dead giveaway that they don't want anyone to know the true weights.

Now I suspect that some of the latest hardtails could be that light if they were running rim brakes and light tires. But not a full suspension bike with disks. I am saying this as a person that had several very top of the line full suspension bikes which is why I returned to CX bikes.

[Roger Merriman]

That’s why I provided a link. Weight is listed for a size large.

Roger Merriman.