Goatheads for Jobst
carl...@comcast.net
I thought that this post deserved its own thread.
After all, it's a lot of work to take the pictures, upload them,
provide tiny-url links for your inadequate browser, and explain the
obvious.
(Anyone not interested in dull pictures of tiny thorns that Jobst
claims aren't there in the first place and ought to be seen and dodged
in the second place should skip this.)
For the curious, here's a link to the original post:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/25c117a8192028be
or http://tinyurl.com/gks2p
But what follows is fairly clear on its own.
Sorry about the slow loading from filelodge, but filelodge offers
full-size pictures, unlike flickr. At full size, one-quarter of a
picture will fill your entire screen--modern digital cameras offer
absurd detail and enlargment.
Let's talk goatheads!
Amazingly, Jobst wrote about this picture:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/050_spot_the_goathead.jpg
"You don't find any puncture vine in this picture because the plant
does not grow amidst grass or other dense vegetation. It grows on
barren soil. If you got a goathead in your tire, it was picked up at
another location. For a convincing picture, you'll need to focus on a
plant at the edge of this weathered path that hasn't been paved in
more than ten years."
Er, the question isn't whether you can see any puncture vine handy.
The question is where is the goathead thorn that your silly FAQ claims
riders ought to be able to dodge?
There's a goathead thorn in plain sight on the path in the easily
enlarged picture. If you can't see it here, how can you claim to be
able to spot and dodge it at 20 mph on a bicycle?
And despite your silly claim, there are lots of goathead thorns along
that path.
(If you don't like "silly," stop pretending so emphatically that you
know more about where I live and ride than I do. It makes people
wonder whether your other comments are just as ignorant.)
You see, Jobst, goathead vines line the road that the path parallels.
The road is about thirty feet up the gentle slope to the right of the
path.
You can't see the vines from the path, much less in the picture.
Funny thing, plenty of thorns wind up on that quarter-mile section of
the path below the road. They're washed down the slope by the rain and
blown down by the wind.
Please, spare us any claims that this is unusual.
Anyone who complained about getting goathead thorns stuck in his
tires, his shoes, or his dog's paw just because he sees no puncture
vine within arm's-reach would be considered an idiot around Pueblo.
And what's that weird red herring about the path being weathered
and not paved for ten years? Where does your FAQ specify that your
silly claims that everyone should be able to spot and avoid goatheads
is useless except on fresh black asphalt?
Here's a two-lane 35 mph road that's part of my daily ride:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/044%20spot%20the%20goathead.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/s72e8
Are you going to claim that you can spot a goathead thorn on that
surface? It's a very nice new road for my neck of the woods.
(In fact, it looks a lot like a familiar road:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/images/tiretest.jpg
You don't seem to be worried about goatheads in that corner, probably
because goatheads are much rarer in that area than they are where I
live.)
Even more amazingly, Jobst wrote about this picture:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/038_goatheads_in_crack.jpg
"You'll have to show me that there are puncture vine plants in the
above pictures. I see nothing of the kind. You should be aware that
these plants produce their 10mm diameter 5-petal blossoms and thorns
through their entire life. These pictures show an asphalt path with
grass and innocuous weeds."
Let me get this straight . . .
You're claiming that I'm standing there with a camera, but I can't
tell puncture vine from the grass and other weeds, even though I
explicitly stated that it was mixed in with them?
Your evidence for this astonishing denial is that you can't see
blossoms, with some twaddle about how big you think they should be?
So when I spend a few hours weeding vines along the path every year,
I'm just imagining the vines? The goathead vines can't grow mixed with
other plants because you say so? I can't recognize the puncture vines
that I pull up every day when I walk my dog around my neighborhood?
What's the weather like on your planet?
Ignoring my text, Jobst wrote about this picture:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/020_dock_goatheads.jpg
"You'll notice that there is no grass or other vegetation in that
patch of puncture vine and that the plant is identifiable from a
distance."
Yes, that's a nice, solid mat of goathead thorns with little flowers,
easily identifiable.
As the text made clear, that picture provides contrast to all the
other vines in all the other pictures--you know, the ones that aren't
putting out flowers at the moment and are mixed in with all the other
grass and weeds.
What you utterly fail to notice (apparently due to limited experience)
is that all the nice, clear goathead vine in that picture also extends
throughout the grass and weeds around it. Try to walk barefoot in that
grass, and you'll leave bloody footprints.
(Yes, I've walked over that innocent-looking grass beyond the obvious
mats of puncture vine to reach the pond next to the path. The wooden
fence to the left of the bike is actually the railing for a dock.)
Then you dodged wildly:
"So why do you ride there? It's like riding in a glass recycling
yard."
Er, I could claim that I ride there because some nitwit keeps
insisting in the FAQ that I can avoid running over goathead thorns by
simply keeping an eye out for them.
Or I could point out that you seem to be admitting that there are
miles and miles of bicycle paths and roads around Pueblo where your
advice is ridiculous.
But to answer the silly question about why I ride where I ride . . .
Possibly because I live here? And that's a typical path? And it's the
only game in town? A place obviously outside your experience, but
which you keep insisting can't be different than what you're familiar
with?
Around Pueblo, goatheads are just part of life. Here, thorns on the
paths and roads and sidewalks are no more unusual than getting rained
on in other places.
You'd be astonished if I insisted that there's no need for a rain
coat, wouldn't you? (I was thirty before I bought a raincoat--it makes
a nice windbreaker, but I don't get caught in the rain as often as
most people get flat tires. It's a bit dry around here.)
It astonishes people in Pueblo when I tell them that nitwits claim to
be able to avoid goatheads by keeping an eye out for them--why not
claim that you can ride between raindrops?
Besides, I like seeing the deer, antelope, foxes, badgers, coyotes,
beavers, muskrats, prairie dogs, porcupines, bobcats, snapping
turtles, softshell turtles, box turtles, rattlesnakes, garter snakes,
red racers, bullsnakes, flat-head snakes, tiger salamanders,
tarantulas, bullfrogs, leopard frogs, toads, lizards, burrowing owls,
great horned owls, flickers, woodpeckers, crows, bald eagles, hawks,
great blue herons, inland cormorants, pelicans, quail, blue pinon-tree
jays, and avocets.
I don't pay much attention to the wide variety of ducks and geese or
to the squirrels and rabbits.
I prefer to avoid the skunks without inquiring whether they're
striped, spotted, or hog-nosed, details that would be easier to notice
than a goathead thorn lying on the road.
I haven't seen black bears, mountain lions, elk, or moose on my ride.
Before you announce with great authority that moose don't wander
around on the Great Plains, I'll point out that the local paper
reported a moose that not only wandered down from the mountains, but
managed to elude the police and wildlife officers, who chased it
around Pueblo West for hours.
No one has ever reported an armadillo around Pueblo.
Now let's see some new pictures of goathead vine and thorns in a
crack, the stuff that you claim I must have been imagining when I took
the earlier pictures.
Here's a typical crack on the same path, ten paces from the camera,
about 30 feet and one second at 20 mph:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/146%20goathead%20crack%20from%2010%20paces.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/rwcz2
Those green vines with no visible yellow flowers on both sides of the
path are, despite your claims, goatheads growing mixed in with tall
grass and other weeds.
And something green is growing in that crack--I wonder what it is?
Here's the same crack, five paces from the camera:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/147%20goathead%20crack%20from%205%20paces.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/lq4cs
Still awfully hard to tell if you're about to roll over goathead vine,
isn't it? No convenient yellow flowers by the side of the road, no
tiny yellow flowers in that green stuff growing in the crack.
Here's a close-up of the crack:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/148%20goathead%20crack%20close%20up.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/m7nrc
It's filled with goathead vines and crab grass and some weeds whose
names I don't know.
Sorry, it's far too late to dodge. Besides, you still can't see any
little yellow flowers, can you? Or the thorns, which have been
accumulating in the crack for years and are growing on the flowerless
vines.
Here's the same crack with the goathead vines pulled out and laid
sideways for better viewing:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/149%20goathead%20crack%20close%20up%20vines%20pulled%20out.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/n3tnd
Look very carefully and you'll see the faintly yellow thorns growing
here and there along the vine.
Of course, you have to view the picture full size to see them, so it's
ridiculous to claim that you could see and avoid them on a bicycle at
20 mph--six of them will fit on the "B" of "Bell" on the helmet.
Still no yellow warning flowers.
Here's a view from the left side of the crack after the vines were
pulled out to make it plain that I literally touched them and was not
imagining them:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/152%20goathead%20crack%20side%20view.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/ns233
That's goathead vine in the crack, growing from both sides of the
path, mixed with some crab grass and other weeds.
From this angle, you can see some of the tiny yellow flowers on the
goathead vine at the bottom of the picture--mixed in with the weeds
and grass at the side of the path and almost impossible to see in the
pictures taken from a rider's point of view.
Incidentally, the helmet was placed to make it easy to spot a large
green goathead thorn lying out on the path, away from the crack.
Can you spot it?
Do you think you could have spotted it at 20 mph?
This picture uses some leaves to show you where that big goathead is:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/153%20goathead%20crack%20spot%20the%20goathead.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/m3kex
Please, let's not have any more nonsense about I-see-no-goathead-here.
If you can't spot the stuff in still pictures, you should keep quiet
and hope no one laughs at your claims to be able to spot and dodge
them on a bicycle. It makes people wonder about other things that you
insist are true.
I assume that you ride mostly on smooth, fresh, black pavement on wide
roads in places where goatheads aren't much of a problem. If you want
to congratulate yourself on "avoiding" the thorns, you're welcome to
your illusions.
But I suspect that most of your success stems from riding where there
just aren't many thorns on the pavement in the first place, not from
your keen eyesight or your evasive maneuvers.
After all, your evasive maneuvers aren't working too well here.
Here's a nice final picture of goathead vines growing out onto the
path:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/141%20solid%20goatheads%20looking%20down.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/pvuod
You can see that the mower has just been by, flinging thorns
everywhere, but there are hardly any warning flowers--not that they'd
do much good on an 8-foot-wide path with miles and miles of goatheads
growing in the cracks and on either side, mixed in with all the other
weeds and grass.
You know, the kind of path that I ride and you don't.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
raa...@hotmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Carl Fogel
wow, how much time did you spend on conceptualiztion, research,
proofreading etc your post?
o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
Sandy
> Dear Jobst,
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
>
Congratulations on the acquisition of your new 50 pound sledge hammer.
As you have already lifted it and slammed it down, will you please keep
us up to date on its effectiveness.
Tx
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
-
"Our knowledge is a little island in a great ocean of non-knowledge."
- Edward O. Wilson
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Since you're determined to claim that I can't take pictures of
> goatheads and don't recognize them when I do, I took a few more
> pictures and entertained myself with extensive commentary.
> It took so long that I put it in a whole new thread, since other
> posters sometimes enjoy pictures that appear to contradict
> well-known claims.
The pictures:
http://tinyurl.com/qdn5o
http://tinyurl.com/hzx9f
Show no puncture vine in any cracks in the road or adjacent to it.
The picture with puncture vine is clearly identifiable by the leaves
and blossoms but the cracks in the above scenes are not those in the
"new" picture. That was my point.
> Here's the new thread:
The infested crack was not in the picture in dispute:
I detect a diversion. Nowhere did I claim that puncture vine is not a
hazard to tires or that it doesn't grow next to roads... or that you
don't know how the plant looks. I described how to identify it, how
to avoid it, and how to patch tires. I wrote how to recognizing its
appearance and habitat and avoid it, things I learned from riding
experience. You might explain what in those articles is misleading
rather than imply you are a victim of false information.
If the paved path is infested with puncture vine, riding a bicycle
there is unreasonable. How it got infested is unclear, not knowing
its history of building, paving, and maintenance. You recognize the
plant so I wonder why you chose this route. There must be another way
with better pavement, one swept clean by passing auto traffic.
In any event, it is old pavement, weathered and cracked, and a menace
to bicyclists. I suggest looking into this by talking to the
legislators on the board that gave rise to its construction. I
suspect they know nothing of this. Posting pictures on wreck.bike and
giving me a hard time about it won't improve anything.
Jobst Brandt
Jobst Brandt
RonSonic
>Look! A smarmy toad has gone over the edge:
You keep using that word, but I think it does not mean what you think it means.
If you think "smarmy" has anything to do with Carl's writings here, you are
missing the point on several levels.
Ron
Bill Sornson
If you look up "smarmy" in the dictionary, there's a picture of Carl right
there. Meantime...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=smarmy
o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
Try a dictionary.....IMO, Carlista's posts are generally smarmy. This
one merely exposes the hostility the smarminess is used to cover over.
Tim McNamara
RonSonic <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
American Heritage Dictionary
smarm?y (smarm)
1. Hypocritically, complacently, or effusively earnest; unctuous.
It's arguable whether "smarmy" or "passive-agressive" best describes
Carl's posting style, regardless of whether he is right or wrong on this
or any other topic. At least in this new thread he sheds some of his
smarmy passive-aggressiveness and gets closer to brass tacks.
Bill Sornson
How about "unpleasantly and excessively suave or ingratiating in manner or
speech"?
Fits like a custom Italian suit.
Chris Nelson
Not to worry, if you have enough time to write posts of this size and
complexity, you have enough time to fix flats.
Chris
o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
Enlighten us all, please, Ron.
RonSonic
Irony.
Ron
o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
RonSonic wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2006 18:37:18 -0700, o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com wrote:
>
> >
> >RonSonic wrote:
> >> On 2 Sep 2006 13:55:10 -0700, o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >Look! A smarmy toad has gone over the edge:
> >>
> >> You keep using that word, but I think it does not mean what you think it means.
> >>
> >> If you think "smarmy" has anything to do with Carl's writings here, you are
> >> missing the point on several levels.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Enlighten us all, please, Ron.
>
> Irony.
>
>
IYO.
And , perhaps, that word doesn't mean what you think it means.
IMO, Carlista is smarmy/passive agressive.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear R.,
Alas, if you think that I proofread without pay, you're not reading my
posts carefully enough.
Conceptualization took about five seconds, tops--I've been getting
goathead flats for years.
(How long would it take you to "conceptualize" a post arguing that I
was wrong and that raincoats are actually useful in some places?)
Research consisted of pointing a camera at a few spots on my daily
ride, which I'm doing anyway for an unrelated legal matter. As you can
see, any fool can point a modern digital camera and push the button.
Even middle-of-the-road models like mine provide incredible detail to
make up for the lack of artistry.
Out of 156 pictures so far, only one is bad in the sense of being
blurry. Here it is:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/081%20curve%20bad%20focus.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/zlq7j
As far as I can tell, absolutely everything is out of focus, but it
could just be jiggle blurring everything. It's hard to blame a camera
that lets a rank amateur take so many other pictures so easily.
It was also an easy way to look into the differences between Flickr
and FileLodge. Flicker is faster, but reduces the pictures, so it's
not as good as FileLodge, which is slower, but gives the full-size
images often needed on RBT. Again, a quarter of the full-size picture
should fill a typical monitor's screen.
As for the rest of the time spent on such things, I type fast,
in-between other computer chores.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Tim,
Actually, they're goatheads, not brass tacks.
Passive-aggressively,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Jobst,
Ah, the wriggling repeated from the other thread!
Same diversion about how the path ought to be fixed up to suit your
goathead theories--it's just unreasonable for me to have put in
100,000 miles on that kind of stuff in the last 20 years!
New pretence that you weren't claiming that the previous pictures
showed anything of the kind, how dreadfully you're misunderstood.
Typical bland nonsense about how things haven't been repeatedly
explained.
It's modest fun, seeing how many of us can dance on a goathead.
So far, no one seems to be claiming that riders ought to be able to
spot and avoid the stuff in my numerous pictures. It's almost as if
your FAQ doesn't apply except to your apparently narrow experience.
Since you've been pulling this trick for years, with me and with other
posters, it seemed like a nice way to use the new camera.
Somehow, I doubt that I'll have to read any modest new posts from you
about how the people who run over goatheads are the same people who
don't see coins and tools on the trail.
If I do, I'll just repost a link or two to these pictures and ask when
you plan to use a paint program to circle the goathead thorn that
you'd be approaching at 20 mph.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
How's "Peggy" the Inflatable Doll?
Pat in TX
calling people names?
RonSonic
It's Certain he's smarter than you.
Ron
o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
Pat in TX wrote:
> Do you have something to add to the discussion or do you just run around
> calling people names?
Discussion?? Do you think this thread incorporates any discussion? Do
you think the OP wanted to have a discussion, or do you think he wanted
to be a nasty, insulting POS?
If you think this about goatheads, you must be new around here.
o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
I love it when a Cretin is Certain.
Dan
I am beginning to think that you are a goathead. So, maybe it is not
about goatheads but seems to authored by thorny goatheads.
Tim McNamara
Dan <banquo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> o...@ozarkbicycleservice.com wrote:
> > Pat in TX wrote:
> >> Do you have something to add to the discussion or do you just run
> >> around calling people names?
> >
> > Discussion?? Do you think this thread incorporates any discussion?
> > Do you think the OP wanted to have a discussion, or do you think he
> > wanted to be a nasty, insulting POS?
> >
> > If you think this about goatheads, you must be new around here.
>
> I am beginning to think that you are a goathead.
You're getting the picture. obs@ozark_etc. has decided to be a troll.
Dan
He seems to have gone from merely tiresome to hateful and aggressive.
He has become "der Ziegekopf"
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
[Jobst dodged:]
[snip]
An email expressed doubts about the likelihood of seeing the
creatures mentioned in the original post, so I took a camera
on my daily ride. It's not a zoo, but given enough time it lets me see
all the creatures that I mentioned.
Actually, my daily ride goes right past the City Zoo, from upper right
to lower left in this picture:
http://www.pueblozoo.org/map_pg.htm
But I thought that taking a picture of captive buffalo and kangaroos
would be stretching things a bit. There are no wild kangaroos in
Colorado, and the ranch with the buffalo herd is about ten miles west
of town.
Anyway, I took my camera, but didn't have the heart to take a picture
of a dead raccoon on the shoulder of the highway, a nocturnal animal
that I forgot to mention because I never see live ones.
And I didn't try to take a picture of a distant flock of turkey
vultures, another species that slipped my mind. They were on their way
home to the mammoth blue spruce two blocks from my house, but I
suspected that I'd come up with either an empty sky or fuzzy dots.
Sorry about the slow loading from filelodge, but it hosts pictures
full size for the necessary detail.
Here's one of the rarer beasts on my daily ride. I stopped to take a
picture for an unrelated legal matter, looked down, noticed it, and
turned it over so that its coat would show to advantage:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/162%20not%20a%20goathead.jpg
I've had three flats from such creatures. Not quite poor Steve Irwin,
but similar.
Further on, this real creature caught my eye as I went by a
maintenance road that crosses the bicycle path:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/172%20tarantula.jpg
They often cross the roads here at the end of summer.
After I took the picture above, I noticed this creature. Its almost
invisible little brother on the left will fit comfortably on my
thumbnail. View the picture at full size to appreciate the camouflage:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/170%20two%20toads.jpg
On the path and roads that I ride, goatheads exhibit the same sort of
camouflage, not that such tiny thorns really need much camouflage to
escape your notice at 20 mph and faster. You could paint them orange
and still end up running over them if you took your eyes off the path
for an instant to sneeze, look at the speedometer, focus on an
approaching bicycle, or any of a dozen such distractions.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jta...@nospam.hfx.andara.com
wrote:
>Do you have something to add to the discussion or do you just run around
>calling people names?
>
Bill and Ozark are the insult tag-team in r.b.t.
All you have to remember is that insults show that the person using
them has no other support for their position (if they have one; for
those two, finding an opportunity to insult someone they've never met
is frequently enough).
Jeff Starr
But you are above all that. You have never insulted anyone,
unprovoked, in a different thread, on a different topic, right?
How about wrong! You are no better than they are. At least they don't
snip posts to change meaning, and then attack that newly created
position.
You get my vote for #1 weasel on rec.bicycle.tech.
Life is Good!
Jeff
jta...@nospam.hfx.andara.com
wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:09:00 GMT, jta...@NOSPAM.hfx.andara.com wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:50:21 -0500, "Pat in TX" <P...@nearnews.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Do you have something to add to the discussion or do you just run around
>>>calling people names?
>>>
>>
>>Bill and Ozark are the insult tag-team in r.b.t.
>>
>>All you have to remember is that insults show that the person using
>>them has no other support for their position (if they have one; for
>>those two, finding an opportunity to insult someone they've never met
>>is frequently enough).
>
>But you are above all that. You have never insulted anyone,
>unprovoked, in a different thread, on a different topic, right?
>
Cite, please.
Bill Sornson
Funniest yet was flailor barging in to a SPAM thread just to feed his
obsession with me. I finally get a stalker, and it's a stanky ol' git Brit
and not a booby bimbo name Bambi. Sigh.
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
New rear wheel last night with both tires pumped up, off for my daily
ride this evening.
About five miles out, a goathead flashes by on front tire, left side.
Brush it off, hope that the Slime sealant holds. At least it's not
spraying green gunk.
By the top of the ridge west of town, denial is useless. Stop, squeeze
soft front tire, shake head, begin repair. At least the rear tire is
okay.
Pry out nine goathead thorn tips from tire with paper clip carried for
that purpose. Several ooze green slime, but none hiss.
Pump up replacement Slime tube lightly to test it. Worthwhile
precaution, since there's a sudden hiss. Is that the pump head coming
off? No, it's a small seam split.
Pump up second replacement Slime tube. Admire how it holds its breath.
Pop it in the tire, pop the tire on the rim, pump it up. Very pleased
with Topeak Road Morph--little foot stand, t-handle, in-line air gauge,
goes to 120 psi almost easily compared to older, smaller Zefal
no-foot-stand, no t-handle pump. I like the pump-head lever better,
too.
Foolishly pick up and pack things, chasing valve caps rolling away in
wind.
Give rear tire a squeeze. While I was repairing the front, the rear was
quietly going soft. Curse, get paper clip out, squint at rear tire.
Remove three goathead thorn tips. One has a drop of dark green fluid,
but no bubble or hissing.
Attach pump, reads 30 psi, leak apparently plugged with Slime. Two more
spare tubes, both just ordinary tubes with long valves in case I meet
gorgeous women with flat tires and deep aero rims. Five Park glueless
patches, which worked nicely the only time that I used one.
No hissing. The ride home from the top of the ridge is usually 18
minutes or less. To hell with it, pump rear to 120 psi, no hissing,
ride home. Rear tire is still holding pressure when I reach my
driveway.
Walk dog. Dog stops, lifts front paw, looks at me expectantly. Remove
goathead from paw.
Later, go out to garage to replace tube. Good idea. Rear tire that held
for over six miles is now completely flat.
Dunk front tube in sink, inflate. That's the tube whose tire still had
nine thorn tips. Four punctures bubble merrily.
Dunk rear tube in sink, inflate. Only three thorn tips were dug out of
its tire, and it held air all the way home after I pumped it up. Three
punctures belch green Slime into the water.
It looks as if Sunday's heavy rain and hail washed a few extra
goatheads onto the path and road.
CF
John Dacey
On 13 Sep 2006 21:40:46 -0700, a flickering carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>New rear wheel last night with both tires pumped up, off for my daily
>ride this evening.
>
>About five miles out, a goathead flashes by on front tire, left side.
[Hellish scenario snipped}
>Walk dog. Dog stops, lifts front paw, looks at me expectantly. Remove
>goathead from paw.
>Dunk front tube in sink, inflate.
Please do not do this to the dog.
Have you considered moving?
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------
carl...@comcast.net
Dear John,
The dog is water-tested twice a week and floats like a cork. A natural
internal version of Slime seals punctures from goatheads, cactus, and
porcupines. Rattlesnake punctures, the true snakebite, require more
drastic and expensive repairs.
As for moving, there's no reason--whatever we're used to seems normal.
Jobst probably considers earthquakes perfectly ordinary, and you may
think that a year without a hurricane is like a day without sunshine.
I probably wouldn't like all that rain in California and Florida.
Rain should come in infrequent cloudbursts, accompanied by lightning
and hail. Anything else just encourages excessive vegetation. If you
want trees and brush, you should have to find a creek.
My younger grew up dry in Pueblo and then lived for a few years in Los
Angeles, also dry.
A few weeks after she moved to Maryland with her family, she timidly
asked her neighbor about the missing sprinkler systems.
It seemed like such a nice neighborhood, she told me, but everyone
seemed to be too poor to afford a sprinkler system. With summer
coming, she didn't want her lawn to die.
Her neighbor proudly showed her a dusty, coiled-up hose, tucked away
in a garage and ready for what Maryland considers droughts.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
[snip]
No question about today's flat rear tire--a goathead was still
sticking out of the sidewall, two inches from the valve, when I
stopped.
Dug three other thorn tips out, only a third as many as yesterday.
Fearlessly put my last new Slime tube into the tire without testing
and pumped it up with the Topeak Road Morph.
Eyed front tire suspiciously, but it politely held its breath.
Rode home, hung new tube that lasted 8 miles with others for patching.
Relying now on large supply of patched Slime tubes.
CF
R Brickston
Whaaaat? No camera available?
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
Slow flat, rear tire, just before exiting City Park--lovely shady,
grassy spot to put in a new tube. For some reason, no women in
convertibles whistled at me as they passed in the fine summer weather.
Dug goathead out of edge of sidewall and tread. Need a new paperclip,
old one is twisted out of shape.
Surprised by previous Rema patch sticking to inside of tire. None of
the others have done this, but maybe I'm finding out why people powder
their tires.
That's my fourth goathead flat in seven days and 105 miles. The
temperature is dropping below forty at night now, so the fields of
ragweed are going brown for fall and dying what I hope is a slow,
horrible death as their vegetable sinuses clog up.
The goatheads, alas, stay just as sharp as they turn brown.
CF
dvt
> That's my fourth goathead flat in seven days and 105 miles.
You have recently posted many tales of woe regarding flats and tyres
that don't fit. If I were you, I'd toss that stockpile of tyres and try
out some new stuff. I'd be trying something like the Schwalbe tyres...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2006/shows/eurobike06/?id=results/eurobike066
http://schwalbetires.com/node/142/ok
http://schwalbetires.com/marathon_xr_home
Granted, that's all ad copy and hype (especially that last link!), but
you have problems that they promise to solve. Why not give it a try?
--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)
RonSonic
Uh huh. I see what you're up to. You're laying the groundwork to beat any drug
tests that show artificial attempts to elevate testosterone levels.
http://www.anyvitamins.com/tribulus-terrestris-info.htm
Ron
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>> That's my fourth goathead flat in seven days and 105 miles.
>
>You have recently posted many tales of woe regarding flats and tyres
>that don't fit. If I were you, I'd toss that stockpile of tyres and try
>out some new stuff. I'd be trying something like the Schwalbe tyres...
>
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2006/shows/eurobike06/?id=results/eurobike066
>http://schwalbetires.com/node/142/ok
>http://schwalbetires.com/marathon_xr_home
>
>Granted, that's all ad copy and hype (especially that last link!), but
>you have problems that they promise to solve. Why not give it a try?
Dear Dave,
Actually, my tires boast Kevlar tread bands (as opposed to Kevlar
beads).
The trouble, as others have pointed out, is that woven fibers are
almost useless against something as sharp-pointed as a goathead thorn.
The usual analogy is the lack of protection that a pad of steel wool
offers against a sewing needle--the pointy thing just goes between the
fibers.
Compared to a goathead's short, nasty thorn, the "toothpick" mentioned
in the demonstration is probably as blunt as the claw on my dog's
front paw compared to what the neighbor's cat uses to climb trees.
The chief protection that the belt offers against a goathead is the
same as a thorn-resistant tube--a little more thickness.
Here's a magnified picture of an ordinary sewing pin, a goathead, and
a sharp toothpick:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/183a%20pin%20goathead%20toothpick%20mm.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/pm3cp
The focus isn't perfect, but it's good enough to show that the
toothpick and the sewing pin are much blunter than the evil goathead.
For fun, I clipped one large horn off that goathead, dug out an old
red Mr. Tuffy strip, and gave the thorn a gentle tap with a hammer:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/184a%20goathead%20through%20mrtuffy.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/jdqhc
The focus is again less than perfect, but you get the idea. I'm not
worried about toothpicks.
Click on the lower right to see the picture full size in Explorer--you
can tell if your browser shows pictures full size because these two
are bigger than your screen and require scrolling around.
Mr. Tuffy liners protect partly by adding thickness and partly because
the goathead has to go through the tire and the liner, so it's blunted
by the time that it reaches the tube. (Many goatheads go through the
sidewall at an angle, completely avoiding Mr. Tuffy.)
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Dane Buson
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:34:33 -0400, dvt <dvt+u...@psu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>You have recently posted many tales of woe regarding flats and tyres
>>that don't fit. If I were you, I'd toss that stockpile of tyres and try
>>out some new stuff. I'd be trying something like the Schwalbe tyres...
>
> almost useless against something as sharp-pointed as a goathead thorn.
> The usual analogy is the lack of protection that a pad of steel wool
> offers against a sewing needle--the pointy thing just goes between the
> fibers.
>
> Compared to a goathead's short, nasty thorn, the "toothpick" mentioned
> in the demonstration is probably as blunt as the claw on my dog's
> front paw compared to what the neighbor's cat uses to climb trees.
>
> The chief protection that the belt offers against a goathead is the
> same as a thorn-resistant tube--a little more thickness.
So, why not use the Marathon Plus Tires? They are not just a *little*
bit thicker, they are much much thicker [1]. Granted, I don't think
their sidewall protection is as rugged, so you'd still get some flats.
But I imagine it would leaps and bounds better than a simple kevlar
belt.
[1] As in, run-over-thumbtacks-with-impunity thicker.
--
Dane Buson - sig...@unixbigots.org
A Code of Honour: never approach a friend's girlfriend or wife with mischief
as your goal. There are too many women in the world to justify that sort of
dishonourable behaviour. Unless she's really attractive.
-- Bruce J. Friedman, "Sex and the Lonely Guy"
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:34:33 -0400, dvt <dvt+u...@psu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>You have recently posted many tales of woe regarding flats and tyres
>>>that don't fit. If I were you, I'd toss that stockpile of tyres and try
>>>out some new stuff. I'd be trying something like the Schwalbe tyres...
>>
>> The trouble, as others have pointed out, is that woven fibers are
>> almost useless against something as sharp-pointed as a goathead thorn.
>> The usual analogy is the lack of protection that a pad of steel wool
>> offers against a sewing needle--the pointy thing just goes between the
>> fibers.
>>
>> Compared to a goathead's short, nasty thorn, the "toothpick" mentioned
>> in the demonstration is probably as blunt as the claw on my dog's
>> front paw compared to what the neighbor's cat uses to climb trees.
>>
>> The chief protection that the belt offers against a goathead is the
>> same as a thorn-resistant tube--a little more thickness.
>
>So, why not use the Marathon Plus Tires? They are not just a *little*
>bit thicker, they are much much thicker [1]. Granted, I don't think
>their sidewall protection is as rugged, so you'd still get some flats.
>But I imagine it would leaps and bounds better than a simple kevlar
>belt.
>
>[1] As in, run-over-thumbtacks-with-impunity thicker.
Dear Dane,
As this picture indicates, you need a combined tire and tube thickness
of about 4-5 mm to stop a determined goathead:
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/184a%20goathead%20through%20mrtuffy.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/jdqhc
(It belatedly occured to me that the goathead's damned thorn was
probably not blunted at all by going through the Mr. Tuffy plastic.
Most likely, the thorn went through the plastic almost undamaged, then
went effortlessly through the thin padding of a work mat, and broke
its nose only when it hit the wooden bench underneath the mat.)
Thicker tires and tubes should stop more goatheads, but I suspect that
the increase in rolling resistance would also be impressive.
When I gave up using thin Mr. Tuffy tire liners like the one in the
picture, the speed increase on my daily ride was so marked that I
never thought about going back.
If I were forced to ride in Pueblo West, I'd probably switch to
knobbies with thorn-resistant tubes, tire liners, and Slime, like a
lot of bicyclists in that hellhole. Even the most ferocious goathead
is helpless against a thick MTB knob, and the heavy casing and other
anti-goathead measures are up in the air.
Lewis Campbell recently wrote that he's been using AirFree tires in
Texas quite happily for several years, which makes me wonder whether I
ought to re-think my prejudices against such godless abominations:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/877508a21f9adfe5
I should add that suggestions from posters like your and Dave strike
me as quite reasonable. I appreciate them almost as much as the
absence of posts suggesting that I should just learn to dodge those
ubiquitous little goatheads. The solutions are pretty much Slime and
fairly normal tires (at normal speeds), or a combination of heavy
tires, thick tubes, and Mr. Tuffy liners (at noticeably lower speeds),
or AirFree-style airless tires (which even Lewis points out need very
carefully measured rims and possibly lowered expectations).
But things could be worse:
http://groups.google.com/group/aus.bicycle/msg/6ba0f9f8a5c15b12?hl=en&
If Steve Irwin had been found dead on dry land, the coroner's verdict
might have involved a three-cornered Jack instead of a sting ray.
(Actually, the three-corner Jacks are about the same size as goatheads
if you look at the scale, but the internet picture is enlarged enough
to make them look fearsome.)
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
dvt
> As this picture indicates, you need a combined tire and tube thickness
> of about 4-5 mm to stop a determined goathead:
>
> http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/184a%20goathead%20through%20mrtuffy.jpg
> or http://tinyurl.com/jdqhc
Your needle looks a bit dull. But your point is well taken; the goathead
is sharp enough to penetrate most fabrics.
> Thicker tires and tubes should stop more goatheads, but I suspect that
> the increase in rolling resistance would also be impressive.
>
> When I gave up using thin Mr. Tuffy tire liners like the one in the
> picture, the speed increase on my daily ride was so marked that I
> never thought about going back.
Ay, there's the rub. I've never had occasion to try kevlar belts, Mr.
Tuffy, or any of that stuff. But I've had slow rolling tyres (ever
ridden a studded snow tyre?), and I know how it feels.
Still, if I had your track record of flats and misfit tyres, I'd be
willing to lose a minute or so per hour if the other problems improved.
As usual, YMMV.
Dane Buson
>>bit thicker, they are much much thicker [1]. Granted, I don't think
>>their sidewall protection is as rugged, so you'd still get some flats.
>>But I imagine it would leaps and bounds better than a simple kevlar
>>belt.
>>
>>[1] As in, run-over-thumbtacks-with-impunity thicker.
>
> Dear Dane,
>
> As this picture indicates, you need a combined tire and tube thickness
> of about 4-5 mm to stop a determined goathead:
That should be fine then. The Smartguard strip is 5mm by itself, so
with a guess-timate of 3mm or so for the tread and casing, I'd say a
total of 8mm. If you had a thornproof tube, that would of course add an
additional layer of flat protection.
> http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/184a%20goathead%20through%20mrtuffy.jpg
> or http://tinyurl.com/jdqhc
>
> (It belatedly occured to me that the goathead's damned thorn was
> probably not blunted at all by going through the Mr. Tuffy plastic.
> Most likely, the thorn went through the plastic almost undamaged, then
> went effortlessly through the thin padding of a work mat, and broke
> its nose only when it hit the wooden bench underneath the mat.)
>
> Thicker tires and tubes should stop more goatheads, but I suspect that
> the increase in rolling resistance would also be impressive.
I haven't noticed much difference in rolling resistance myself, at least
my averages haven't suffered noticably. I also recently did a descent
down Hurricane Ridge where my highest previous speed was 43mph. With
the Schwalbe I hit 45 mph. I was wearing very similar clothing compared
to the previous time, so my aero drag was probably not too different.
Not a very controlled test, but it's all I have.
They are noticably heavier, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad
thing. If someone is really interested in the rolling resistance I
suppose they could do a drum test or a roll out.
--
Dane Buson - sig...@unixbigots.org
The reason that every major university maintains a department of
mathematics is that it's cheaper than institutionalizing all those people.
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>> As this picture indicates, you need a combined tire and tube thickness
>> of about 4-5 mm to stop a determined goathead:
>>
>> http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/184a%20goathead%20through%20mrtuffy.jpg
>> or http://tinyurl.com/jdqhc
>
>Your needle looks a bit dull. But your point is well taken; the goathead
>is sharp enough to penetrate most fabrics.
>
>> Thicker tires and tubes should stop more goatheads, but I suspect that
>> the increase in rolling resistance would also be impressive.
>>
>> When I gave up using thin Mr. Tuffy tire liners like the one in the
>> picture, the speed increase on my daily ride was so marked that I
>> never thought about going back.
>
>Ay, there's the rub. I've never had occasion to try kevlar belts, Mr.
>Tuffy, or any of that stuff. But I've had slow rolling tyres (ever
>ridden a studded snow tyre?), and I know how it feels.
>
>Still, if I had your track record of flats and misfit tyres, I'd be
>willing to lose a minute or so per hour if the other problems improved.
>As usual, YMMV.
Dear Dave,
Alas, the average speed difference between Mr. Tuffy liners and Slime
was around 3 minutes per 15-mile ride, dropping from around 50 minutes
to under 47 minutes.
I didn't know it at the time, but that slow-down is about what this
speed calculator predicts if you double the rolling resistance:
http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
With 200 watts and 24.2 km, it predicts 45.54 minutes at 31.9 kmh.
Raise the rolling resistance from 0.0050 to 0.0100, and it predicts
49.44 minutes at 29.4 kmh.
I also didn't know that putting in two Mr. Tuffy tire liners was not
likely to reduce flats because the goatheads were going through the
sides, but that imbecile experiment ended after a single ride--the
rolling resistance increase was impressive.
Anyway, the 3-minute decrease in perceived-fun-per-ride was more than
I could possibly stand. To justify it, I calculate that at roughly 333
rides per year, the 3-minute daily speed increase gives me an extra
1,000 minutes to fix flat tires.
Of course, I have no idea what a sensible fellow would do.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
Dear Dane,
I suspect that an 8mm thick tire would more than double the rolling
resistance.
To get an idea of what this could involve, select hands-on-drops near
the top of this speed calculator and plug my 15-mile daily distance
into the trip field near the bottom:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
With the default "narrow racing tires," you get 19.4 mph and 46:23.5.
With "robust wide touring tires," you get 17.9 mph and 50:16.8.
Similarly, set the power and cadence to 0, then tip the road to -8 for
a high-speed 8% downhill. The defaults with narrow tires predict 43.1
mph, while the "robust" tires drop to 38.4 mph.
Unfortunately, you need either a good calculator or else dozens of
repeated rides over the same route to get useful speed results. Wind,
temperature, the details of your tuck, and initial speed will cause
the speed on a downhill to vary much more than most posters realize.
Here's an example of how annoyingly real-life coasting tests can be. I
roll down three hills every day, pedalling up to the same mark,
tucking in, and admiring the speedometer.
This is the last week of data for my maximum speed descending a long,
gentle stretch of highway, along with my overall time for about 15
miles:
max mph time
35.3 43:51
46.5 48:13
38.0 46:08
43.4 46:40
38.5 45:48
38.9 48:35
43.4 45:06
week's week's
avg mph avg time
40.57 46:20
year's year's
avg mph avg time
37.82 48:30
Notice that the maximum speed varied from 35.3 to 46.5 mph. This may
look impressive, but it's really nothing more than a gentle 5 mph
headwind versus a 5 mph tailwind, which is scarcely noticeable (a
brisk walk is about 4 mph--see if you notice the wind on your face as
you stride down a long hallway).
Notice also that the speed on that downhill for last week is almost
10% higher than the average for the year so far. Some of that 2.75 mph
speed increase is random variation, but about 1.6 mph is probably the
pure temperature effect of an 80F week in late summer versus a lot of
40F days.
That's how sensitive bicycle speeds are--that same rider, bike, narrow
tires, and wind profile will go 42.0 mph down that 8% hilll at 40F
instead of 43.6 mph at 80F.
Have a look at this table of rolling resistance:
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/tech/JL.htm
Schwalbe Marathons were tested (weird small size, but probably similar
to results for a 700c version). Their RR was around 0.0100, about
double the 0.0050~0.0060 RR for normal narrow tires.
You can see the effect here:
http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocityN/velocity.html
Reduce the watts to a more modest 200, set the distance to 24.2 km (15
miles), and the calculator predicts that with the default 0.0050 RR,
you'll go 31.9 kmh and take 45.55 minutes.
Raise the RR to 0.0100, and the calculator predicts 49.4 minutes at
29.4 kmh, about the same differeace as the Kreuzotter calculator
predicts for narrow versus robust wide touring tires.
Sadly, thicker, heavier tires bend a lot more rubber as they roll,
which slows things down. At around 3 minutes faster per day for around
330 days per year, my thinner tires give me about 1,000 extra minutes
to change 20 to 50 flat tires per year, so theoretically I'm coming
out ahead (which surprises me).
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
Hmmm . . . my rear tire feels a bit low to my thumbs.
Attach floor pump, pump on t-handle several times, watch gauge rise to
120 psi, whap valve stem on Slime tube with handy tool handle to
release stuck Presta valve, and--
Gauge drops to 80 psi. My thumbs need recalibration.
Pump to 120 psi. No hissing. Slime must have sealed puncture.
Aha! Right where the tread meets the sidewall is the stub of goathead.
Yank, drop of green Slime appears, but no hissing.
Inflate tube, coil, dunk in sink.
Insert toothpick at bubbles.
And another.
And again.
And one more--annoying, since I grabbed only three toothpicks from the
drawer and need another.
There!
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room19/497501/221%20four%20goatheads%20in%20one%20tube.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/jzumm
I count these four goathead punctures accumlated in 13 daily rides
from September 20th to October 2nd as a single flat, not four.
Nice that the Slime tube held so well. I bet I could have gotten a few
more rides in.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
[snip]
It's been eight days since my last flat, but only seven 15-mile rides
because it rained all day Sunday.
Today, the long, fast downhill on my daily ride felt much too plush. A
peek back down at my rear tire showed that the 700x26 looked more like
a flabby 700x32, so I stopped and replaced the rear tube, which had a
slow leak from a goathead thorn.
I really, really like that new Topeak Road Morph pump.
A glance at my spreadsheet shows 8 flats in my last 44 15-mile rides,
some with more than one Slime-sealed puncture when patched.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
The goatheads decided to add insult to injury.
This morning, my rear tire was down to 40 psi, so I yanked the tube,
checked the tire, found a goathead thorn, dug it out, put in a new
tube, and dunked the culprit in the sink to find the pinhole.
The bubbles came from where I'd already patched the tube.
Drat! The patch must have failed.
Or so I assumed.
But after I peeled the Rema patch off, I was startled to see two
separate streams of bubbles, one from the original puncture and
another, right at the edge of where the patch had been.
The patch was nicely centered over the original hole. The new hole is
about 3 mm from the edge of the patch, just barely inside the ring of
exposed red material around the edge of the patch.
So a goathead somehow took aim at the patch on my inner tube before
lancing through my tire. Not quite a bullseye, but awfully close.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
The cracks on the highway shoulder didn't feel quite as harsh as usual
on the way back into town, so I peered down at my front tire, but I
couldn't tell for sure if it was bulging.
When I finally stopped, still looking down, the front tire bulged and
wrinkled visibly.
Sure enough, the stub of a goathead was sticking out of the top of the
left side of the tire. When I pulled the thorn out, a single tear of
green Slime trickled out, followed by a gentle hiss.
A farm dog stood on a small mound and barked helpfully at me over his
fence while I fixed the flat. He probably appreciated the change that
I offered from the deer and skunks that cross nearby.
Once again, I was pleased with my new Topeak Road Morph pump.
With the flat rear tire that I fixed before I left this morning,
that's ten goathead flats in 58 fifteen-mile rides since August 27th.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
It was such a nice morning that I went out for my usual ride before a
visiting friend arrives for an afternoon ride.
When my front tire went soft, I dug out three goathead thorn tips, but
none of them were responsible--no hiss, no slime, nothing.
As I turned the tire, a tiny drop of green Slime oozed out of an
almost invisible hole in the tread, where a goathead had plunged
through and then withdrawn, unbroken. Sink testing confirmed only the
single pinhole.
That's four goathead flats in seven 15-mile rides, two on the front
and two on the rear. Undoubtedly I should keep a closer eye on the
pavement and avoid them, but spotting goatheads may be a little harder
than the FAQ suggests in places where goatheads are prolific.
(It may even be impossible on my downhill, where a tailwind pushed
the maximum speed reading to 46.5 mph this morning, or 68 feet per
second.)
My friend has never had a flat when he visits. We go for a ride, he
has a pleasant outing, and neither of us gets a flat.
But a week later, I usually notice that one of the tires on the bike
that he uses has gone flat from a slow leak.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
While I was rebuilding my rear wheel last night, a goathead was
quietly nibbling through my front tire, dead center in the tread.
The Slime held the pressure to 60 psi.
The hard freeze last night killed all the blue morning glories, but
it's almost 70F now. Maybe the chinook wind that's blowing will
somehow turn into a tailwind all the way around my daily loop.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
>carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
This is dangerously close to becoming annoying.
I fixed a slow-leak front flat before my ride this afternoon.
Six minutes out, I thought no, it can't be going flat already.
The damned goathead was still sticking out of the sidewall.
Possibly this creature was kicking goatheads out onto the path:
http://server5.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=290atarantula.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/ydrtag
They're busy crossing the path--I've seen one every day for the last
week or so.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
A 32-degree temperature drop from yesterday's high, but no snow for a
change on Halloween. Eleven deer paid little attention to me in the
39F weather.
The low rear tire that I pumped up before my ride turned out to be
another goathead flat. Amused myself by digging smaller thorns and
rock chips out of both tires. The front tube had no leak, so back it
went into the tire.
I find that rubbing the patch area with a piece of chalk stops it
from sticking to the inside of the tire.
A friend asked if I used a roller-stitcher to flatten my patches,
since that's what he was taught to do as a motorcycle mechanic.
Of course not, I scoffed in a deep, manly voice, my thumbnail works
just fine.
Furtive internet searching showed that BikeToolsEtc will sell me a
genuine Rema roller-stitcher with ball bearings and wooden handle for
about $14.50, plus shipping:
http://biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=24393435553&d=single&c=Tools&sc=Tire-and-Tube&tc=Ball-Bearing-Stitcher&item_id=RE-30
or http://tinyurl.com/yz77zt
For twenty bucks or so, I'd still be using my thumbnail or the knurled
grip of a pair of pliers.
But Checker Auto, a typical chain, had an all-metal Victor/Monkey-Grip
roller-stitcher. It has no ball bearings, so I can't roll it back and
forth quite as fast as the stylish Rema, but the Monkey-Grip model
includes a handsome built-in scraper to roughen the inner tube's
surface. It cost only $1.41 with tax last week, but has now vanished
from the web site.
It worked fine tonight, as far as I can tell, 120 miles after my last
flat.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
frkr...@gmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> A friend asked if I used a roller-stitcher to flatten my patches,
> since that's what he was taught to do as a motorcycle mechanic.
>
> Of course not, I scoffed in a deep, manly voice, my thumbnail works
> just fine.
FWIW, I fix punctures at home using a cylindrical work surface - a 1.5"
dowel held in a vise. I drape the tube over the dowel. Seems to make
it easier to buff the tube, etc.
When the cement's dry, I apply the patch, then roll it down with
another cylindrical object, something like a screwdriver shaft, tire
iron, or whatever's handy, held perpendicular to the dowel. This
allows good pressure on the patch.
-
On a related matter: I don't know if this was mentioned recently but:
Carl, have you ever tried the old style "tire savers" or "flint
catchers" - those wire-and-plastic-tubing things intended to scrape
just above the tire's surface, hopefully snagging and dislodging thorns
and such before a second revolution pushes them in?
I know many folks judge them useless, saying that the damage is done
immediately, not on successive revolutions. But ISTM you'd have little
to lose by trying them.
- Frank Krygowski
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Frank,
Like you, I use a rounded surface as my tube-patching "workbench".
It's just the handy 4-inch-wide polished round barrel of a big
tilt-and-swivel vise, which holds up to five tubes at once.
As for the flint-catchers, Tony Raven suggests that they can help, at
least with flints in the UK:
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.rec.cycling/msg/c54304dfb1841151
or http://tinyurl.com/y5eox4
But Jobst argues that tire savers make no statistical difference:
"Ah yes, "tire savers", as they were known in some circles, were one
of those "tossing salt over the shoulder" quirks of bicycling, like
wiping tires. Among my riding companions the only thing they did was
to make obvious who had them on their bicycles when the roads were
wet, because the guy with tire savers was the rider with the dirtiest
legs. The number of flats had no apparent statistical difference. The
tire saver guys were there on Wednesday evenings at my weekly tire
patch sessions just like the others."
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/1202787bc070229f
Yet elsewhere Jobst claims that there is a huge statistical difference
in the frequency of flats:
"Locally, we have riders who constantly get flats in spite of liners
and slime... and they ride the same routes that I and many others ride
without problem."
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/70a2c60abeaa6b58
Since Tony Raven and others have found tire savers to be useful, I'm
looking into them, but no one seems to make tire savers any more.
The tire savers strike me as likely to fail for two reasons.
First, a smooth round wire lightly brushing the tread isn't likely to
yank small chips out of the tire.
If anything, the wire should push the chip in a tiny bit further,
unless quite a bit of the chip is sticking out. The chips that I dig
out of my tires are usually not a lot bigger than a 2mm spoke, so
they'd be poor candidates for tire-saver removal. The UK flints may be
much bigger and easier to snag.
Second, my problem is mostly needle-pointed goatheads, not chips. The
goatheads pretty much bury themselves to the hilt with the first
thrust.
I dig lots of goathead thorn-tips out of my tire that failed to
puncture the inner tube, but what saved me is just that the thorn tips
were just too short to reach the inner tube through the tread, the
casing, and the internal Kevlar belt of my tires.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
frkr...@gmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Since Tony Raven and others have found tire savers to be useful, I'm
> looking into them, but no one seems to make tire savers any more.
It would be easy to open an old bike parts catalog and copy them. The
ones I had were just bits of wire bent to fit, insulated from the brake
frame by thin plastic tubing.
One problem, I suppose, is that they were typically bolted in place
with the brake mounting bolt, but that was before recessed allen bolts
or nuts. Not an insurmountable problem, though.
>
> The tire savers strike me as likely to fail for two reasons.
>
> First, a smooth round wire lightly brushing the tread isn't likely to
> yank small chips out of the tire.
>
...
>
> Second, my problem is mostly needle-pointed goatheads, not chips. The
> goatheads pretty much bury themselves to the hilt with the first
> thrust...
If I got flats as frequently as you do, I'd try it anyway. There's
little to lose.
When we started cycling in the early 1970s, tire savers were somewhat
popular. My wife had them on her bike, but I usually didn't. She got
noticeably fewer flats than I did, but I rode more, so I can't say much
about the flats per mile rate.
I recall that Rivendell once had an article about using leather thongs
loosely draped across the tire surface as thorn catchers. IIRC, they
were tied to fork blades (front) or seat stays (rear).
My flat count is quite low. (Maybe I need to look at the scenery
more?) But if I had your problem, I'd be experimenting intensely.
Wire? Leather thong? Toothbrush? Snowplow ahead of front wheel?
etc...
- Frank Krygowski
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Frank,
Off for the daily experiment, but sadly the problem has been solved.
You run knobby MTB tires, whose knobs are much thicker than the
thorns, add Mr. Tuffy strips and thicker thorn-proof tubes for the
goatheads that sneak in between the knobs, and use Slime.
Unfortunately, the combination reminds you why police and soldiers
often say to hell with it and take off their heavy body armor. The
rolling resistance increases impressively. Just the tire liners added
three minutes to my average time for fifteen miles, which works out to
about a mile at my pace.
If you're used to the goatheads, it's not so bad, as long as you don't
have to read nonsense about "avoiding" them by impossible alertness
and eyesight that would impress an antelope.
As for the snowplow suggestion, I do let my friends ride ahead of me
when they visit, ostensibly so they can enjoy the scenery and not
worry about catching up with me.
:)
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> A friend asked if I used a roller-stitcher to flatten my patches,
>>> since that's what he was taught to do as a motorcycle mechanic.
>>> Of course not, I scoffed in a deep, manly voice, my thumbnail
>>> works just fine.
>> FWIW, I fix punctures at home using a cylindrical work surface - a
>> 1.5" dowel held in a vise. I drape the tube over the dowel. Seems
>> to make it easier to buff the tube, etc.
>> When the cement is dry, I apply the patch, then roll it down with
>> another cylindrical object, something like a screwdriver shaft,
>> tire iron, or whatever's handy, held perpendicular to the dowel.
>> This allows good pressure on the patch.
>> On a related matter: I don't know if this was mentioned recently
>> but:
>> Carl, have you ever tried the old style "tire savers" or "flint
>> catchers" - those wire-and-plastic-tubing things intended to scrape
>> just above the tire's surface, hopefully snagging and dislodging
>> thorns and such before a second revolution pushes them in?
>> I know many folks judge them useless, saying that the damage is
>> done immediately, not on successive revolutions. But ISTM you'd
>> have little to lose by trying them.
> Like you, I use a rounded surface as my tube-patching "workbench".
> It's just the handy 4-inch-wide polished round barrel of a big
> tilt-and-swivel vise, which holds up to five tubes at once.
I believe that you can't get better contact with more pressure than you
can apply with a well place thumb pressing on a table. As I related,
the REMA patch representative at InterBike 2005 rolled on a patch
which I readily pulled off again when he handed it to me. In
contrast, after a curing pause (for me that is the next day) the patch
cannot be pulled off without the frying pan heat treatment.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html
> As for the flint-catchers, Tony Raven suggests that they can help,
> at least with flints in the UK:
> But Jobst argues that tire savers make no statistical difference:
# Ah yes, "tire savers", as they were known in some circles, were one
# of those "tossing salt over the shoulder" quirks of bicycling, like
# wiping tires. Among my riding companions the only thing they did was
# to make obvious who had them on their bicycles when the roads were
# wet, because the guy with tire savers was the rider with the
# dirtiest legs. The number of flats had no apparent statistical
# difference. The tire saver guys were there on Wednesday evenings at
# my weekly tire patch sessions just like the others.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/1202787bc070229f
> Yet elsewhere Jobst claims that there is a huge statistical
> difference in the frequency of flats:
# Locally, we have riders who constantly get flats in spite of liners
# and slime... and they ride the same routes that I and many others
# ride without problem.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/70a2c60abeaa6b58
> Since Tony Raven and others have found tire savers to be useful, I'm
> looking into them, but no one seems to make tire savers any more.
> The tire savers strike me as likely to fail for two reasons.
> First, a smooth round wire lightly brushing the tread isn't likely
> to yank small chips out of the tire.
> If anything, the wire should push the chip in a tiny bit further,
> unless quite a bit of the chip is sticking out. The chips that I dig
> out of my tires are usually not a lot bigger than a 2mm spoke, so
> they'd be poor candidates for tire-saver removal. The UK flints may
> be much bigger and easier to snag.
The dragging wire is not round but rather is half-round, and it gets
progressively thinner after a few miles. However, it wears through in
not too many miles, especially on damp roads where fine road emery is
carried around to it by the tire.
The reason you can't find them is that they proved demonstrably
ineffective, but then tying and soldering outlived the high wheeler by
nearly a hundred years as a comparison. Of course its benefits
required special test equipment, so the practice remained as long as
those who performed the modification claimed it had unproven benefits.
Who are we to question authority!
> Second, my problem is mostly needle-pointed goatheads, not chips.
> The goatheads pretty much bury themselves to the hilt with the first
> thrust.
That is the event with most anything that will cut tread rubber.
> I dig lots of goathead thorn-tips out of my tire that failed to
> puncture the inner tube, but what saved me is just that the thorn tips
> were just too short to reach the inner tube through the tread, the
> casing, and the internal Kevlar belt of my tires.
Too bad you didn't use an errant goathead for your puncture test
instead of a dull nail. You seem to have an endless supply of these
thorns in your daily life.
Jobst Brandt
b...@fractalfreak.com
First off I fortunately do not live in an area with 'goathead'
thorns. Though I am familiar with them from bicycle trips
to NM, and those thorns are indeed wicked.
I've been using these continental tires for the past two
years that have some sort of aramid belt. I can say,
based on my experience, that these new armored tires
are much tougher then the older kevlar belted ones. I've
had them stop several shards of glass, and one large
thorn. The thron had broken off flush with the tire and I was
able to pick it out of the (still inflated) tire. The tip had
broken off at the aramid belt.
So perhaps you will lose a few minutes to rolling resistance...
who cares, sounds like you are wasting for more time
than that fixing flats at this point.
At worse you could use the more clunky tires during the few
months out of the year when the thorns are a problem.
Anyway you seem to be enjoying your thorn ordeal,
in a perverse sort of way. And you're doing a favor to
other cyclists mopping all those pesky thorns up.
All I got to say on this.
Eric
b...@fractalfreak.com
{edit} wanted to add the tires I'm using are slicks,
not thick heavy treaded tires. Get some aramid belted
slicks for your road bike. Nothing to lose but a few $$$,
and perhaps much wasted time fixing flats.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Eric,
Alas, my slick tires have Kevlar belts. The aramid fibers offer no
real resistance to the thorns. As Jobst points out, you might as well
expect steel wool to stop a darning needle. Kevlar belts are better at
stopping glass and rock chips.
Kevlar belts do reduce goathead flats to some degree, but the trick is
just that they increase the thickness that the short but evil thorns
must penetrate.
And alas, the thorns are a year-round problem. The hard, nasty little
devils that grow and fall off the flat vines don't vanish just because
it gets cold.
As for the time . . . At 3 minutes per day, I save about a thousand
minutes per year, or about twenty minutes per week, more time than I
spend fixing 25-35 flats per year.
Sadly, short of knobby tires, Mr. Tuffy strips, and thicker tubes,
there's little improvement likely over the flat rate of my
faster-rolling 700x26 tires with Slime tubes.
But I'm looking into the little wire tire-saver loops, spurred on by
Tony and Frank. Unfortunately, tire savers are hard to find, short of
making my own--and the only thing worse than my mechanical skills is
my carpenty.
It's hard to say whether being hard to find is evidence that tire
savers don't work, work but aren't needed by people who hardly ever
have flats, or work on rock chips but not goatheads or glass. The most
emphatic comments on tire savers come from Jobst, who mentions only
6-8 flats per 10,000 miles in a year, 3-4 of them impact flats. That
would be like me having 1-2 flats in my 5,000-mile year, since impact
flats are as rare for me as goatheads are for Jobst.
Glad to hear that goatheads aren't a problem for you.
As for why you're reading the thread, it's because these little
squabbles offer different views of interesting peculiarities and you
can learn something about both bicycles and bicyclists from them. I'm
always curious about rain threads, even though much of the 10-14
inches of water Pueblo gets per years is snow melt and cloudburst.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Jobst,
The topic for the nail test was rock chips--you know, the kind found
by a few dozen UK posters, despite strange claims that rock chips
can't cause flats.
Alas, I have no ready supply of standard, reproducible rock chips that
can be clamped in a vise.
But I do have plenty of nails.
The blunter point of a nail head seemed like a much better imitation
of a sharp chip with a long edge than a wooden needle-point.
So it's not too bad that I used a nail head in the unrefuted test, is
it? I mean, except for that weird theory that rock chips can't cause
flats.
Incidentally, I tried Frank's suggestion ad hoc today.
Glancing at my front tire on a long straight stretch of road, I
noticed something too small to be identified whipping around. It
certainly wasn't a complete goathead, which is easily recognized.
Whatever it was, it ticked the finger of my glove a time or two and
then vanished. Obviously, it had to be stuck into the tire, and
equally obviously it was knocked out after hitting my glove a few
times. Whether it saved the tire is another matter.
Where, incidentally, were tire savers ever "proved demonstrably
ineffective," outside your somewhat contradictory memories of your
Wednesday tire patching circle?
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
b...@fractalfreak.com
Right, have you tried any of the aramid tires? I think the
material is tougher than kevlar and may stop most
of the thorns. Those thorns are tough, but not as tough as
rolling over a nail or a staple. When the tip of the thorn hits
the aramid it likely will fracture and your tire will end up
with a harmless splinter. That's been my experience with
the aramid tires I've been using. I haven't gotten a flat
since I started using them, almost two years now. I've
often used kevlar tires in the past and they never seemed
to stop glass or thorns.
I think you are losing track of things worrying about five
minutes one way or another.
Eric
b...@fractalfreak.com
(...)
What I'm using. Conti slicks.
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/general/innovation/safetysystem_en.html
Not that I'm trying to push them or anything.
What you need to do is get some of these new
armored tires and then go on a mission. Seek
the elusive goathead thorn complex(es) and
roll over them. Attempt to destroy the tire. I'm
curious if they'd hold up.
I think they'd do better than kevlar, but you'd probably
still get flats. Likey.
Then again maybe they'd work and you've have
new thorn destroying tires.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Eric,
Sorry to be cryptic instead of informative.
Kevlar is just DuPont's brand name for a specific kind of aramid.
Google for kevlar, dupont, and aramid for details.
Goathead thorns go through aramid tires not by being as stiff or
strong as steel, but by being as sharp or sharper than a sewing pin:
http://server5.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=183a%20pin%20goathead%20toothpick%20mm.jpg
A gentle tap with a hammer will put a goathead right through a Mr.
Tuffy plastic strip, which is solid plastic as opposed to woven aramid
fibers:
http://server5.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=184a%20goathead%20through%20mrtuffy.jpg
The blunting of the out-of-focus goathead thorn tip is due to hitting
the wooden workbench under the red Mr. Tuffy strip, not going through
the solid plastic strip itself.
Aramid or Kevlar fibers themselves can be cut with scissors, though
the scissor will dull quickly.
A stock newspaper story concerns the deaths of fellows who mistakenly
believe that their Kevlar vests will stop knives because the vests can
stop bullets.
Kevlar vests work by behaving like trampolines against the relatively
huge surface area of a low-power pistol slug, with hundreds and even
thousands of strong fibers spreading the impact out over a large area.
Unfortunately, a knife-point just goes between the fibers, the sharp
blade slices the necessary slightly larger entrance, and the coroner
shakes his head.
Incidentally, I don't question your experience of having better luck
with whatever tires you use. There are tires that are indeed designed
to resist flats (some models are specifically aimed at bicycles used
around junk yards).
And many things can affect small samples. I enjoyed a virtually
flat-free few months early this year (well, only 5 flats in 6 months,
practically flat-free from my point of view).
This led me to believe that things were improving because I'd weeded
some sections of my daily ride and a sand and gravel pit that supplied
rock chips and goatheads had closed.
But my good luck was just that, luck. When my tubes finally went flat,
they turned out to have up to half a dozen punctures that just
happened to be small enough and near enough the centerline that the
Slime had sealed them. A closer look at the path revealed that the
goatheads were flourishing. And I had to admit that I'd seen a number
of bicyclists with flats on the path.
(They're easy to spot, since they simply push their bikes back to
town, having learned the hard way that a spare tube, pump, patches,
and so forth are necessary.)
Here's a post where Dianne pointed out that Kevlar can be cut with
scissors, but soon dulls them:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/3d728556a16db83f/22450f714d076f22?lnk=gst&q=dianne+kevlar+scissors&rnum=1#22450f714d076f22
or http://tinyurl.com/y9q3ds
Click on show-quoted-text to see Dianne's explanation of what happened
when she set out to cut some Kevlar cloth for disc wheel covers.
Again, that's why we read these wandering threads. It's much nicer to
read Dianne's account than to learn the hard way, even though I'll
never try to make skins for disc wheels.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
Something, I don't know what, makes a faint noise as the front tire
slowly loses pressure.
At first I thought the noise was a leaf stuck in the brake assembly.
It was a goathead thorn tip, smack in the middle of the tread. When I
pried it out, the tire hissed and dribbled a little green Slime at me.
At least it was Indian summer weather, 73F.
Here's why I thought the noise might be a leaf and failed to spot the
goathead:
http://i11.tinypic.com/2n9icep.jpg
That picture was taken a few days ago. Now long stretches of the path
are completely covered with leaves.
Well, leaves and an occasional goathead.
The year started out so well, but now I'm up to 22 flats in 298
fifteen-mile rides, a little more than a flat every two weeks or every
200 miles.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
Today I wrongly suspected a goathead when a rear-tire slow leak
stopped me about ten miles into my daily ride.
Not a thorn in sight in the tire. A few tiny rock chips in cuts, but
obviously not deep enough to do anything.
Nothing inside the tire when I went around it with my fingers.
Even odder, no trace of Slime on the tube or inside the tire.
When I pumped the tube up, I was startled to see the evil twin slits
of a very faint snakebite on one side of the tube. I almost never get
impact punctures and hadn't noticed any unusual bumps.
I was so suspicious that I checked the tube again later before
patching it, but there were no other punctures that could lowered the
pressure and encouraged a borderline snakebite from ordinary impacts.
So I must have hit something like a piece of gravel just right on one
side of the rear tire.
I suppose this is how Jobst feels on the rare occasion when he finds a
goathead in his tire.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Earls61
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 13 Sep 2006 21:40:46 -0700, carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> I was so suspicious that I checked the tube again later before
> patching it, but there were no other punctures that could lowered the
> pressure and encouraged a borderline snakebite from ordinary impacts.
Carl,
Have you seen the new Schwalbe Ultremo & Marathon Supreme tires? They
incorporate a new type of fabric for pucture protection...
Check out the video "Ultremo vs. Toothpick"... I was wondering if
Shwalbe borrowed this apparatus from Fogel Labs! Too bad they didn't
use a goathead thorn instead of a toothpick.
Now I'm wondering how much pressure a bicycle tire exerts on the tip of
a sharp object such as a toothpick or a goathead when the bike rides
over it.
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
Dear Earl,
Alas, the same tires and their toothpick test have already been
suggested in this thread--long ago, so don't feel bad about missing
it.
Here's a link to the suggestion and a reply with a magnified picture
of a toothpick, sewing pin, and goathead thorn tip:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/0bc99a8b35a1819a
As you'll see, the toothpick is blunt instrument compared to a
goathead. You may have to go to the site twice to get past some ad,
and then click on the lower right of the picture in Explorer.
There's also a fuzzy picture showing a goathead thorn that went
through a Mr. Tuffy plastic strip (solid, not woven fibers) with a
light tap from a hammer.
Later posts added that what blunted the goathead that went through the
Mr. Tuffy strip was hitting the hardwood bench under the strip, not
puncturing the thin plastic strip.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> I was so suspicious that I checked the tube again later before
>>> patching it, but there were no other punctures that could lowered
>>> the pressure and encouraged a borderline snakebite from ordinary
>>> impacts.
>> Have you seen the new Schwalbe Ultremo & Marathon Supreme tires? They
>> incorporate a new type of fabric for puncture protection...
http://www.schwalbetires.com/
http://tinyurl.com/w3xb2
>> Check out the video "Ultremo vs. Toothpick"... I was wondering if
>> Schwalbe borrowed this apparatus from Fogel Labs! Too bad they
>> didn't use a goathead thorn instead of a toothpick.
>> Now I'm wondering how much pressure a bicycle tire exerts on the
>> tip of a sharp object such as a toothpick or a goathead when the
>> bike rides over it.
> Alas, the same tires and their toothpick test have already been
> suggested in this thread--long ago, so don't feel bad about missing
> it.
> Here's a link to the suggestion and a reply with a magnified picture
> of a toothpick, sewing pin, and goathead thorn tip:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/0bc99a8b35a1819a
> As you'll see, the toothpick is blunt instrument compared to a
> goathead. You may have to go to the site twice to get past some ad,
> and then click on the lower right of the picture in Explorer.
> There's also a fuzzy picture showing a goathead thorn that went
> through a Mr. Tuffy plastic strip (solid, not woven fibers) with a
> light tap from a hammer.
> Later posts added that what blunted the goathead that went through
> the Mr. Tuffy strip was hitting the hardwood bench under the strip,
> not puncturing the thin plastic strip.
I saw that demo at InterBike as toothpicks were curled back on
themselves, never entering the tread, much less any casing plies. It
made no difference what sort of stuff was inside the tire, toothpicks
never making a blemish on the tread rubber. I wonder who comes up
with these ideas to bamboozle the public... and they eat it up with a
large spoon.
On the other hand, your test with the dull nail reminded me of the
tooth pick test.
Jobst Brandt
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Jobst,
Except that my sharp (not dull) nail penetrated the tire to the Kevlar
belt at 100 psi and then penetrated through the tire and the Kevlar
belt and made a dent on the inner tube at 110 psi.
This proved the point that you disputed, namely that increasing tire
pressure increases the likelihood of some debris penetrating tires.
Feel free to provide a link to the post in question to show that
you've actually looked at the pictures that showed that your claim
that tire pressure did not affect penetration was wrong.
As usual, when you've been proven wrong, you resort to smoke, mirrors,
and nonsense.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
doug....@gmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Dear Jobst,
>
> As usual, when you've been proven wrong, you resort to smoke, mirrors,
> and nonsense.
Your own specialty.
John Dacy wrote:
>>Walk dog. Dog stops, lifts front paw, looks at me expectantly. Remove
>>goathead from paw.
>>Dunk front tube in sink, inflate.
>Please do not do this to the dog.
And you sleazed:
>The dog is water-tested twice a week and floats like a cork
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Doug,
Er, what was John proving me wrong about with his joke?
What do you find sleazy about taking a dog for a walk in the
countryside twice a week and letting him paddle around in a pond?
Looks like smoke, mirrors, and nonsense from you.
Jobst made a typical passing swipe implying that a dull nail was
somehow involved in a test that was somehow wrong. He never came up
with anything to support his claim that tire pressure cannot affect
penetration. The physics of penetration is fairly obvious, and my
testing pointedly (pardon the pun) confirmed it.
Feel free to address the test. You could start by providing links to
what you quoted from John Dacey, or to the test that Jobst implied was
mistaken.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
doug....@gmail.com
> Dear Doug,
Dear Carl,
> Er, what was John proving me wrong about with his joke?
As you know perfectly well John expressed concern about the frequency
with which you lead your dog over goatheads resulting in painful paw
punctures. You responded by mocking him and avoiding the issue at paw.
Doug
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Doug,
It's possible that I mistook a well-meant joke from you for a serious
post.
If so, I apawlogize. :)
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
doug....@gmail.com
Carl,
Whom do you think you are fooling? You tell us day in and day out how
needle-sharp goatsheads are, and how they will puncture most anything.
Jobst tells you to avoid riding there. Others tell you not to ride
there. And now you're telling us that you walk your dog there?!? And
that, predictably, he gets painful punctures? Is this not abuse of the
dog on your part?
Doug
Dane Buson
> carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 9 Nov 2006 16:46:58 -0800, doug....@gmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> >As you know perfectly well John expressed concern about the frequency
>> >with which you lead your dog over goatheads resulting in painful paw
>> >punctures. You responded by mocking him and avoiding the issue at paw.
>> >
>> post.
>
> needle-sharp goatsheads are, and how they will puncture most anything.
> Jobst tells you to avoid riding there. Others tell you not to ride
> there. And now you're telling us that you walk your dog there?!? And
> that, predictably, he gets painful punctures? Is this not abuse of the
> dog on your part?
Yes Carl, I too must know, have you stopped abusing your dog yet?
--
Dane Buson - sig...@unixbigots.org
Warning: Post may have been produced in a facilities that has processed nuts.
Caution: Pieces of irony may be contained within, please ingest with caution.
Notice : May cause indigestion in hoofed ungulates and sable felines.
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>doug....@gmail.com wrote:
>> carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>>> On 9 Nov 2006 16:46:58 -0800, doug....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> >As you know perfectly well John expressed concern about the frequency
>>> >with which you lead your dog over goatheads resulting in painful paw
>>> >punctures. You responded by mocking him and avoiding the issue at paw.
>>> >
>>> It's possible that I mistook a well-meant joke from you for a serious
>>> post.
>>
>> Whom do you think you are fooling? You tell us day in and day out how
>> needle-sharp goatsheads are, and how they will puncture most anything.
>> Jobst tells you to avoid riding there. Others tell you not to ride
>> there. And now you're telling us that you walk your dog there?!? And
>> that, predictably, he gets painful punctures? Is this not abuse of the
>> dog on your part?
>
>Yes Carl, I too must know, have you stopped abusing your dog yet?
Dear Dane,
Not yet. Here's an example of typical dog goathead damage:
http://i15.tinypic.com/2r57tbl.jpg
Oh, wait, the vet did that . . .
Actually, goatheads are no problem unless you walk dogs on the bike
path, streets, or highways, where foot, bicycle, and maintenance truck
traffic spreads the goatheads. It's rare to find goatheads growing
more than ten feet away from the pavement--like most weeds, they
follow the broken ground of civilization.
I take my dog to wander in the countryside ten to twenty miles west of
my daily ride, out a long, lonely dead-end dirt road where goatheads
are practically unknown.
There, he chases rabbits and deer (which refuse to stand and fight)
and porcupines (which he quickly learned not to chase too closely).
He also steps on the occasional cactus spine (which he ignores).
I've never had a cactus flat yet.
One theory is that my natural alertness and fantastic eyesight enables
me to dodge the tiny needles at 20 mph, mile after mile, year after
year.
A less flattering theory is that there are no cactus spines to dodge
on the asphalt, even though cactus grows on either side of the path
and along the highway.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
Just after I turned onto the highway today to climb to the top of the
ridge west of town, this fellow skittered off the pavement:
http://i15.tinypic.com/2v0esdf.jpg
I stopped to take his portrait. He's about two inches long, a fairly
familiar creature. The only thing bigger around here is a tarantula.
He refused to return to the pavement and even ran up my shoe when I
tried to block his escape. He may be preying on the woolly
caterpillars, which are still wandering across the road in a fierce
Indian summer (60~80F in November).
While I was putting the camera back in the bag, he must have stuck two
goatheads in my rear tire, which I dug out of the tire and count as
only a single flat, my 24th for the year.
Despite the fine weather during the daytime, there's been no sign for
weeks of the little yellow blossoms that the FAQ claims makes it easy
to avoid puncture vine thorns. The tiny flowers vanish before the
first frosts in early October, not that seeing them does anything to
prevent the thorns from impaling tires.
This hawk and these eighteen (or more) antelope probably never see
goatheads:
http://i15.tinypic.com/2yjsh0l.jpg
They're on the far side of the ridge and well away from the highway
and the puncture vine.
CF
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
An email once asked me why I haven't provided any picture of picture
of an actual goathead flat.
The problem is that you have to focus the camera in manual mode up
close from a steady rest to get a picture worth taking.
I don't carry a workbench with a vise, a long metal arm, and a good
light with me on my daily ride.
But today I had a very slow front tire leak and was damned if I was
going to stop two blocks from my garage to fix a flat.
So here's the base of a goathead thorn, still stuck in a 700x26 after
the body of the thorn broke off miles ago:
http://i15.tinypic.com/29vnvhg.jpg
The base of the thorn is the 1 mm yellow dot on the tire, which is so
new that the tiny tread pattern is still visible.
And here's the same thorn tip extracted to show its 3 mm length:
http://i15.tinypic.com/3z8r710.jpg
The normally needle-sharp end has been noticeably blunted by going
through the tread, the internal kevlar belt, and the inner tube. The
hole is visible to the upper left of the thorn.
In Explorer, click on the lower right of the pictures to see them full
size.
That's my 25th flat for 2006, a year that started out much better. I'm
averaging a little more than one flat every 200 miles, 14 since
October 1st. It's almost as if the goatheads haven't read the FAQ
claim that they're a summer phenomenon.
The bright side is that I can use the nearly new tire tonight for
another round of tests of contact-patch-size versus inflation.
Some posters are wondering if tire wear somehow caused the tire in the
original test to produce a mark only 108 mm long instead of the 200+
mm long mark predicted by the theory that the area of the contact
patch is a straight linear function of inflation.
CF
frkr...@gmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> That's my 25th flat for 2006, a year that started out much better. I'm
> averaging a little more than one flat every 200 miles, 14 since
> October 1st. It's almost as if the goatheads haven't read the FAQ
> claim that they're a summer phenomenon.
So, have you tried tire savers yet?
- Frank Krygowski
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Frank,
Alas, no, for several reasons.
First, the FAQ says that tire savers don't work. Surely you don't
expect me to doub the FAQ? :)
More seriously, I haven't gotten any alert from eBay yet about any NOS
tire savers for auction.
If I do, I'll have to decide if I want to risk the money on something
that may not fit my front brake. Tire savers seem to be designed for a
brake with an exposed central front nut, which isn't the model that I
have on my bike.
I hesitate to try to make a tire saver myself, simple though it seems,
partly because of my front brake not looking like the right kind and
partly because the only thing worse than my machinist's skills is my
carpentry.
"Frequent Pest on RBT Dies in Flaming Crash, Police Find Oddly Twisted
Wire Contraption Entangled in Front Wheel, Suspect Suicide" is not
quite how I want to be remembered.
But thanks for reminding me. I'll check my eBay alert.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
Hmmm . . . something wrong with my alert, since I found these for sale
when I searched.
Probably I had an alert for "tire saver" instead of "tire savers".
Alas, these seem to be a very different kind for classic bikes.
CF
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Hmmm... something wrong with my alert, since I found these for sale
> when I searched.
> Probably I had an alert for "tire saver" instead of "tire savers".
> Alas, these seem to be a very different kind for classic bikes.
I suspect the owner of these was not aware of the correct name, which
I suspect was Henri Pélissier, after whom much bicycle equipment was
named when I started bicycling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Pélissier
Jobst Brandt
Solvang Cyclist
4ax.com:
> That's my 25th flat for 2006, a year that started out much better. I'm
> averaging a little more than one flat every 200 miles, 14 since
> October 1st.
Have you ever tried tire savers? I know they are out of vogue (and Sheldon
thinks they are "of dubious value in practice") but I would think they
would be ideal for your goathead problem.
Cheers,
David
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Jobst,
I suspect that the owner just isn't too worried about the foreign
spelling on a $10 opening bid auction.
But there's no suspicion about the correct spelling--click on the
picture to enlarge it, and you can see "CH.PELISSIER" on both tire
savers.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
Dear David,
I'm open-minded about tire-savers, having had a few posters suggest
them, but so far eBay hasn't come up with any to fit my brakes.
See nearby posts in this thread about the odd tire savers up for
auction, which look like solid cast metal:
Either the owner is careless about spelling, or else he transposed the
letters E-L in Pelissier.
To return to goatheads, the vast majority of these nasty thorns tend
to penetrate a tire on the initial impact--a very light tap with a
hammer will put one right through Mr. Tuffy plastic strip:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/64658808b9ae2c35
http://server5.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=184a%20goathead%20th...
or http://tinyurl.com/yb9ffd
Still, I'm tempted to try tire savers.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Solvang Cyclist
4ax.com:
>
> I hesitate to try to make a tire saver myself, simple though it seems,
> partly because of my front brake not looking like the right kind and
> partly because the only thing worse than my machinist's skills is my
> carpentry.
>
>
I would think that it would be simple for anyone capable of bending a few
spokes, and I'm sure you can find someone like that. <grin>
If the issue with the front brake is that it has a recessed center bolt,
then you might try placing the tire saver in front of the fork, between
the fork and the brake body. If you use a spoke for the mounting bracket,
you might have to file the spoke flat on both sides in order to keep the
brake solid. Then, depending on the space available, you can face the
tire saver back under the fork and above the tire, or if there's not
enough clearance, face it forward under the brake body.
Cheers,
David
carl...@comcast.net
<ne...@NOshierSPAM.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Then, depending on the space available, you can face the
>tire saver back under the fork and above the tire, or if there's not
>enough clearance, face it forward under the brake body.
>
>Cheers,
>David
Dear David,
Absolutely not facing back.
Facing forward, a wire tire saver will just bounce harmlessly in front
of the brake.
But if it faces backward, it's likely to earn you a Darwin award when
the wire is carried forward by the tire and jams between the brake,
fork, and tire.
The only fellow I know who had such a failure died two years
afterward, paralyzed from the neck down.
The horizontal fender stay on his front fender broke free of the
fender, caught on his front tire, was carried forward, and locked
everything solid in about an eighth of a wheelspin. That's why you'll
read about breakaway fender mounts on RBT.
Carl Fogel
frkr...@gmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> Absolutely not facing back.
>
> Facing forward, a wire tire saver will just bounce harmlessly in front
> of the brake.
>
> But if it faces backward, it's likely to earn you a Darwin award when
> the wire is carried forward by the tire and jams between the brake,
> fork, and tire.
I'm aware that there have been a few terrible accidents from fenders
swallowed by front wheels and forks. But I really doubt the tire saver
would ever do anything similar. It's tiny, it's flimsy, and the
plastic tubing on that E-bay model would function like the breakaway
attachement on some modern fenders.
It's true that those classic tire savers may not fit your brakes. But
despite your dark past as an English major, I think you'd be able to
fabricate something similar. It doesn't have to be sophisticated,
especially for a trial.
The most sophisticated feature of the E-bay units is the plastic tube,
but it was intended only to reduce the noise of the thing scraping on
the tire. And I'll remind you that Grant Peterson of Rivendell has
advocated a leather shoelace as a tire saver. IIRC, he showed photos
of the lace tied between the forks or seatstays, and loosely draped
across the tire.
Again, I think you've got nothing to lose by trying. And just think of
the potential time savings from reduced internet posts!
... not that we don't enjoy them, of course!
- Frank Krygowski
Solvang Cyclist
4ax.com:
> Absolutely not facing back.
>
> Facing forward, a wire tire saver will just bounce harmlessly in front
> of the brake.
>
> But if it faces backward, it's likely to earn you a Darwin award when
> the wire is carried forward by the tire and jams between the brake,
> fork, and tire.
>
What Frank said.
We are talking about a short (maybe 6in) length of spoke here - one
connected with a couple of 2in long pieces of plastic tubing. If somehow
the spoke tried to make its escape it would either fly away or at most
manage to get caught somewhere that would do some damage to the brake and
wheel, but I can't imagine it could lock up the wheel the way a fender
could.
I would not use the ones from eBay as they don't appear to have the
"breakaway" feature that the bent spoke and plastic tube style offers.
Cheers,
David
carl...@comcast.net
Dear David,
No imagination needed.
You, your twin brother, and a friend can probably hang from a single
2mm stainless steel spoke without breaking it.
It takes about 600 pounds of tension to yield a 2mm stainless steel
spoke. See Jobst's yield tests in the back of any edition of "The
Bicycle Wheel." Or search the archives for crash damage--bicycle
spokes will usually rip out of rims instead of breaking.
Please don't test the results of jamming tangled metal debris into the
narrow area where the brake arms and fork curve around a high-friction
front tire. Hang the tire savers facing forward.
Carl Fogel
Michael Press
<ksq1n25ec72tmf82q...@4ax.com>,
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
One design is not a single piece of wire. Rather two
pieces coupled by short lengths of flexible tubing with
internal diameter smaller than the spoke diameter so
that cut spoke ends are jammed into and are held
through friction by the flexible tubing. Large forces
applied to this fabrication separates the components.
--
Michael Press
frkr...@gmail.com
> You, your twin brother, and a friend can probably hang from a single
> 2mm stainless steel spoke without breaking it.
But only if the spoke were gripped at both the ceiling end and the twin
brother end with an attachment capable of 600 pounds! That's not
going to happen with the plastic tubes slipped over those wires.
Furthermore, the strength of a spoke in tension is tremendously higher
than its strength in bending. And bending is all that's necessary for
the spoke to safely pass through the fork-to-tire clearance.
I think you're being extremely over-cautious.
> Please don't test the results of jamming tangled metal debris into the
> narrow area where the brake arms and fork curve around a high-friction
> front tire. Hang the tire savers facing forward.
Well, if that's what you prefer, that's fine. But you really ought to
try them. It sounds like you're in a unique position to test them and
tell us the results!
- Frank Krygowski
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Frank,
Possibly there's a misunderstanding, perhaps people aren't thinking
things through, and maybe some people have never seen jammed tires
after crashes that killed or injured riders.
The scheme proposed (in good faith) was to mount a spoke bent into a U
with enough curves to attach to the brake bolt that goes through the
bottom of the steering tube.
Facing forward, the U-shaped spoke presents no real danger--the tire
motion pushes the bent wire away from everything. It's as safe as
brushing the tire in _front_ of the brakes with the palm of your
glove. There's nothing to jam your hand against the tire, and anything
that catches on the tire will be spat forward to safety.
But facing backward, the U-shaped spoke is as dangerous as brushing
the tire _behind_ the fork. Everything tends to jam between the tire,
the wire, and the spoke, and everything jammed will be dragged forward
with enormous force into the fork, to jam even harder.
Here's a view from the back of my upside-down fork that shows what
will happen within a month where I ride. Just replace the thin
screwdriver blade with a chunk of friendly tumbleweed:
http://i14.tinypic.com/2ep1342.jpg
It's snowing, so I used the easy-to-obtain-and-photograph screwdriver
blade against a 2 mm spoke instead of an actual tumbleweed stalk. The
debris doesn't have to be as hard as metal or even a tree-twig--a
fairly fragile tumbleweed stalk will do. The debris only has to push
the U-shaped spoke against the tire, and everything will jam solid.
Anything that pushes the 2 mm spoke loop against the tire will cause
the tremendous friction of the tire to grab it and try to jam it
through the fork, away from the viewer.
Remember, the spoke is supposed to be bolted to the other side of the
fork, out of sight. (It wouldn't be much better if it were somehow
attached to the recessed bolt on the back of the fork.)
Cutting the bent spoke into two pieces and joining the u-section to a
pair of legs bolted to the fork with high-friction plastic tubing that
only makes them fatter will only to add to the wreckage.
Anyone who doubts the friction involved should try to fiddle a crudely
bent spoke through the fork as shown. I couldn't bend or pull it
through with pliers, not at the angle needed to attach to the bolt.
The easiest way to set up the camera shot was to push the spoke
against the tire with one hand and turn the wheel with the other
hand--and even that was hard to do.
I don't want to be on a bike where a tire spinning at 20 mph tries to
jam such a contraption through the fork.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Solvang Cyclist
4ax.com:
> The scheme proposed (in good faith) was to mount a spoke bent into a U
> with enough curves to attach to the brake bolt that goes through the
> bottom of the steering tube.
>
Not exactly. The spoke that runs around the brake bolt does not go to the
tire - it is an open U too short to reach the tire. Instead the ends of
the U are inserted into a couple of lengths of plastic tubing. Then a
second U, bent to the shape of the tire, is inserted into the other end
of the tubes. This gives a breakaway if anything gets caught.
A picture is worth a thousand words and I found one online:
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/1087995571705_tire_savers.jpg
It's not exactly the same design since the part that goes around the
brake bolt is stamped instead of a spoke, but the idea is exactly the
same. I don't know if this place actually has them in stock, but if so,
you might want to order a pair from them if you don't feel like making
them yourself.
Cheers,
David
carl...@comcast.net
Dear David,
Yes, those are the wire and tube tiresavers:
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/1087995571705_tire_savers.jpg
They're a little fancier on the bolt attachment, but pretty much like
the ones that I mentioned to you in October in another thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/6be120eec1237f8f
Here's the picture:
(I've since changed my mind about my airy suggestion that you could
easily fashion them with a pair of pliers for a dollar. Spoke bending
is trickier than you'd think.)
There's no problem with them facing forward.
But I still don't want my front tire trying to force a tangled mess of
spoke wire and tubing through the fork from behind.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
o
carl...@comcast.net
Dear David,
I searched again and found that they're for sale on eBay--something
must still be wrong with my automatic notice for such things.
Unfortunately, they're $36, including shipping.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
frkr...@gmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> Dear David,
>
> I searched again and found that they're for sale on eBay--something
> must still be wrong with my automatic notice for such things.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/TIRE-SAVERS-Vintage-Road-Bike-Essential-NO-FLATS_W0QQitemZ240000105852QQcmdZViewItem
>
> Unfortunately, they're $36, including shipping.
Carl:
You finally drove me to dig through my crate of "ancient parts."
I found a pair. They look NOS, identical to the above E-bay items.
They must be 30 years old.
You can have them IF you promise to install the blasted things and let
us know if they help!
Contact me off-list with your address.
- Frank Krygowski
frkr...@gmail.com
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 2 Dec 2006 10:39:36 -0800, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >I think you're being extremely over-cautious.
> >
> Here's a view from the back of my upside-down fork that shows what
> will happen within a month where I ride. Just replace the thin
> screwdriver blade with a chunk of friendly tumbleweed:
>
> http://i14.tinypic.com/2ep1342.jpg
I admit, I was envisioning something other than a modern
micro-clearance frame. The bikes I ride could almost let the handle of
the screwdrive pass, let alone the blade. But I wonder - if your
tumbleweed stalk gets that far, will the bit of wire make much
difference?
Still, I think you should test some tire savers, facing one way or the
other.
- Frank Krygowski