Thru axle adaptors for tuing stand

[Mark Cleary]

I need to get some adaptors to true wheels on my Park TS-8. Stand this is the cheaper version of the top on the line park stands but it works fine. Now with thru axles I need an adaptor. Park sell the TS-TA adaptor that is specifically for this situation. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the adaptor is $65. There are alternatives that are cheaper. I like Park Tool they do a good job of vidoes and the like so I hate to just ignore them but the prices of these little items seem to be quite different. Can anyone help me on what to do. Get the Park of is something else just a good or better for much less. I did the google search and I did seem some decent stuff for 1/2 the price. I am figuring Andrew will know the answer in a heartbeat. I wonder if a homemade one could be done too thta works just as well if not to complicated.
Deacon mark

[AMuzi]

On 4/13/2023 3:13 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> I need to get some adaptors to true wheels on my Park TS-8. Stand this is the cheaper version of the top on the line park stands but it works fine. Now with thru axles I need an adaptor. Park sell the TS-TA adaptor that is specifically for this situation. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the adaptor is $65. There are alternatives that are cheaper. I like Park Tool they do a good job of vidoes and the like so I hate to just ignore them but the prices of these little items seem to be quite different. Can anyone help me on what to do. Get the Park of is something else just a good or better for much less. I did the google search and I did seem some decent stuff for 1/2 the price. I am figuring Andrew will know the answer in a heartbeat. I wonder if a homemade one could be done too thta works just as well if not to complicated.
> Deacon mark
>

Se your local LBS for a 14mm BMX axle with cones.

Works fine in the various through axle formats for about $10.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Lou Holtman]

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:13:52 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
> I need to get some adaptors to true wheels on my Park TS-8. Stand this is the cheaper version of the top on the line park stands but it works fine. Now with thru axles I need an adaptor. Park sell the TS-TA adaptor that is specifically for this situation. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the adaptor is $65. There are alternatives that are cheaper. I like Park Tool they do a good job of vidoes and the like so I hate to just ignore them but the prices of these little items seem to be quite different. Can anyone help me on what to do. Get the Park of is something else just a good or better for much less. I did the google search and I did seem some decent stuff for 1/2 the price. I am figuring Andrew will know the answer in a heartbeat. I wonder if a homemade one could be done too thta works just as well if not to complicated.
> Deacon mark

Mark I never owned a truing stand and I am still ‘alive’.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:13:52 PM UTC-4, Mark Cleary wrote:
> I need to get some adaptors to true wheels on my Park TS-8. Stand this is the cheaper version of the top on the line park stands but it works fine. Now with thru axles I need an adaptor. Park sell the TS-TA adaptor that is specifically for this situation. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the adaptor is $65. There are alternatives that are cheaper. I like Park Tool they do a good job of vidoes and the like so I hate to just ignore them but the prices of these little items seem to be quite different. Can anyone help me on what to do. Get the Park of is something else just a good or better for much less. I did the google search and I did seem some decent stuff for 1/2 the price. I am figuring Andrew will know the answer in a heartbeat. I wonder if a homemade one could be done too thta works just as well if not to complicated.
> Deacon mark

My philosophy is that I don't mind spending a few extra bucks if I know won't have to worry about replacing it in ten years or so. In the case of a thru axel adapter, it's likely a decent one is going to outlast you. The alternatives should be viewed with suspicion (espeically if sold on ebay with a brand that seems to be a random string of characters), but any _known_ brand is likely to be adequate quality to last a while.

That said, hats off to Andrew for his $10 solution - will probably last longer than the high-end park tool.

[AMuzi]

On 4/14/2023 3:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:13:52 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> I need to get some adaptors to true wheels on my Park TS-8. Stand this is the cheaper version of the top on the line park stands but it works fine. Now with thru axles I need an adaptor. Park sell the TS-TA adaptor that is specifically for this situation. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the adaptor is $65. There are alternatives that are cheaper. I like Park Tool they do a good job of vidoes and the like so I hate to just ignore them but the prices of these little items seem to be quite different. Can anyone help me on what to do. Get the Park of is something else just a good or better for much less. I did the google search and I did seem some decent stuff for 1/2 the price. I am figuring Andrew will know the answer in a heartbeat. I wonder if a homemade one could be done too thta works just as well if not to complicated.
>> Deacon mark
>

> Mark I never owned a truing stand and I am still ‘alive’.
>
> Lou
>

+1

Truing wheels in the bike gives the same result as in a stand.

When building wheels all day long, a well lit clean stand
area is very helpful.

[Tom Kunich]

Try fitting a dial gauge to your bike fork or rear stay.

[AMuzi]

On 4/14/2023 9:13 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 6:02:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/14/2023 3:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:13:52 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>> I need to get some adaptors to true wheels on my Park TS-8. Stand this is the cheaper version of the top on the line park stands but it works fine. Now with thru axles I need an adaptor. Park sell the TS-TA adaptor that is specifically for this situation. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the adaptor is $65. There are alternatives that are cheaper. I like Park Tool they do a good job of vidoes and the like so I hate to just ignore them but the prices of these little items seem to be quite different. Can anyone help me on what to do. Get the Park of is something else just a good or better for much less. I did the google search and I did seem some decent stuff for 1/2 the price. I am figuring Andrew will know the answer in a heartbeat. I wonder if a homemade one could be done too thta works just as well if not to complicated.
>>>> Deacon mark
>>>

>>> Mark I never owned a truing stand and I am still ‘alive’.

>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> Truing wheels in the bike gives the same result as in a stand.
>>
>> When building wheels all day long, a well lit clean stand
>> area is very helpful.

>

> Try fitting a dial gauge to your bike fork or rear stay.
>

My dial indicator base has a V notch and magnetic cam system.
Perhaps tougher on carbon...

[Mark Cleary]

Lou to do build wheels? I do so I got a truing stand it certainly makes it easier.
Deacon Mark

[Lou Holtman]

No I don’t build wheels. There is no reason for me to build my own wheels. I have very good experience with factory wheels.

Lou

[AMuzi]

On 4/14/2023 1:17 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:27:55 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:42:54 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:13:52 PM UTC-4, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>> I need to get some adaptors to true wheels on my Park TS-8. Stand this is the cheaper version of the top on the line park stands but it works fine. Now with thru axles I need an adaptor. Park sell the TS-TA adaptor that is specifically for this situation. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the adaptor is $65. There are alternatives that are cheaper. I like Park Tool they do a good job of vidoes and the like so I hate to just ignore them but the prices of these little items seem to be quite different. Can anyone help me on what to do. Get the Park of is something else just a good or better for much less. I did the google search and I did seem some decent stuff for 1/2 the price. I am figuring Andrew will know the answer in a heartbeat. I wonder if a homemade one could be done too thta works just as well if not to complicated.
>>>> Deacon mark
>>> My philosophy is that I don't mind spending a few extra bucks if I know won't have to worry about replacing it in ten years or so. In the case of a thru axel adapter, it's likely a decent one is going to outlast you. The alternatives should be viewed with suspicion (espeically if sold on ebay with a brand that seems to be a random string of characters), but any _known_ brand is likely to be adequate quality to last a while.
>>>
>>> That said, hats off to Andrew for his $10 solution - will probably last longer than the high-end park tool.
>> Lou to do build wheels? I do so I got a truing stand it certainly makes it easier.
>> Deacon Mark
>

> No I don’t build wheels. There is no reason for me to build my own wheels. I have very good experience with factory wheels.
>
> Lou
>

The difference between truing in a bicycle or in a stand is
operator comfort and convenience, not the result.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/14/2023 4:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> Mark I never owned a truing stand and I am still ‘alive’.

That surprises me. Have you never built wheels?

In my early bicycling years I didn't have much money. I had built some
wheels and trued many wheels using the frame or fork of a bike, but I
eventually built my own truing stand. Once I had it, I thought the stand
was well worth the effort.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

For me, using a truing stand also saves a ton of time. But I'm talking
there about building wheels. If a person never does that, the stand's
not necessary.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 9:48:06 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/14/2023 4:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> > Mark I never owned a truing stand and I am still ‘alive’.
> That surprises me. Have you never built wheels?

Nope considered that a waste of time.

>
> In my early bicycling years I didn't have much money. I had built some
> wheels and trued many wheels using the frame or fork of a bike, but I
> eventually built my own truing stand. Once I had it, I thought the stand
> was well worth the effort.
>

Good for you. I paid the very good mechanic at the LBS. Today your own builds can’t compete with factory wheels or pre build wheels. Not in price or in quality.


Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

I suppose that might be so if your desires are suitably generic. But
thinking back to wheels I've built: 36 spoke touring wheels for riding
coast to coast? 48 spoke wheels for the rear of a tandem? Wheels to fit
an existing three speed coaster brake hub gear into an antique kid's
bike? AFAIK, those aren't easily available off the shelf. And why would
I pay a mechanic to do work that I find pleasant and gratifying?

YMMV, of course. But what I've done has indeed been good for me, as you
said.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 4/14/2023 2:50 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/14/2023 2:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/14/2023 1:17 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:27:55 PM UTC+2, Mark
>>> Cleary wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:42:54 AM UTC-5,
>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:13:52 PM UTC-4,

>>> No I don’t build wheels. There is no reason for me

>>> to build my own wheels. I have very good experience with
>>> factory wheels.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>
>> The difference between truing in a bicycle or in a stand
>> is operator comfort and convenience, not the result.
>
> For me, using a truing stand also saves a ton of time. But
> I'm talking there about building wheels. If a person never
> does that, the stand's not necessary.
>

One merely flips the wheel over periodically, same as in a
stand. That's no trouble in a bike as a newly built wheel
has the gear system off.

[Mark Cleary]

The new Habanero has Shimano RS171 wheelset and I could see that the rear wheel was not exactly true. Being a disc brake wheel, it is not nearly as critical as rim brakes, but it was bugging me. I don't have adaptor yet for the stand, so I trued the wheel on the bike. I have done this before but prefer to work on the stand. I have my stand up higher on bench and get a better sighting. In any case is came out pretty decent took longer than I thought. I also had slight rotor rub on the front wheel. I used some needle-nose pliers to give the rotor a but of truing itself and the rub went away.

I am curious if rotors rub ever so slightly at times as not a lot of room for error in the set up?
Deacon Mark

[Tom Kunich]

Whenever you replace the wheels in the bike you usually have to realign the brake by loosening the caliper, applying the brake to the lock and then retightening the caliper. It only takes a minute and you know that the calipers are aligned to the disks.

[AMuzi]

On 4/17/2023 10:42 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:

> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 6:48:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/14/2023 2:50 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/14/2023 2:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/14/2023 1:17 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:27:55 PM UTC+2, Mark
>>>>> Cleary wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:42:54 AM UTC-5,
>>>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:13:52 PM UTC-4,

>>>>> No I don’t build wheels. There is no reason for me

>>>>> to build my own wheels. I have very good experience with
>>>>> factory wheels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The difference between truing in a bicycle or in a stand
>>>> is operator comfort and convenience, not the result.
>>>
>>> For me, using a truing stand also saves a ton of time. But
>>> I'm talking there about building wheels. If a person never
>>> does that, the stand's not necessary.
>>>
>> One merely flips the wheel over periodically, same as in a
>> stand. That's no trouble in a bike as a newly built wheel
>> has the gear system off.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> The new Habanero has Shimano RS171 wheelset and I could see that the rear wheel was not exactly true. Being a disc brake wheel, it is not nearly as critical as rim brakes, but it was bugging me. I don't have adaptor yet for the stand, so I trued the wheel on the bike. I have done this before but prefer to work on the stand. I have my stand up higher on bench and get a better sighting. In any case is came out pretty decent took longer than I thought. I also had slight rotor rub on the front wheel. I used some needle-nose pliers to give the rotor a but of truing itself and the rub went away.
>
> I am curious if rotors rub ever so slightly at times as not a lot of room for error in the set up?
> Deacon Mark
>

Yes, rotors do rub, frequently, which is why we straighten
them, just as you did.

For a rear wheel, try tipping your bike up on end, turning
the bars 90 degrees on one handlebar end and the side of the
front wheel. The rear seatstay bridge (or caliper if so
supplied) is at a reasonable working height for truing and
the bike is amazingly stable with saddle against one's hip
or a wall.

[AMuzi]

On 4/17/2023 10:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:42:16 AM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:

>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 6:48:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/14/2023 2:50 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/14/2023 2:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 4/14/2023 1:17 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:27:55 PM UTC+2, Mark
>>>>>> Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 7:42:54 AM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:13:52 PM UTC-4,

>>>>>> No I don’t build wheels. There is no reason for me

>>>>>> to build my own wheels. I have very good experience with
>>>>>> factory wheels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The difference between truing in a bicycle or in a stand
>>>>> is operator comfort and convenience, not the result.
>>>>
>>>> For me, using a truing stand also saves a ton of time. But
>>>> I'm talking there about building wheels. If a person never
>>>> does that, the stand's not necessary.
>>>>
>>> One merely flips the wheel over periodically, same as in a
>>> stand. That's no trouble in a bike as a newly built wheel
>>> has the gear system off.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> The new Habanero has Shimano RS171 wheelset and I could see that the rear wheel was not exactly true. Being a disc brake wheel, it is not nearly as critical as rim brakes, but it was bugging me. I don't have adaptor yet for the stand, so I trued the wheel on the bike. I have done this before but prefer to work on the stand. I have my stand up higher on bench and get a better sighting. In any case is came out pretty decent took longer than I thought. I also had slight rotor rub on the front wheel. I used some needle-nose pliers to give the rotor a but of truing itself and the rub went away.
>>
>> I am curious if rotors rub ever so slightly at times as not a lot of room for error in the set up?
>> Deacon Mark
>
> Whenever you replace the wheels in the bike you usually have to realign the brake by loosening the caliper, applying the brake to the lock and then retightening the caliper. It only takes a minute and you know that the calipers are aligned to the disks.
>

If by "replace" you mean "substitute nonconforming format
disc wheel" then yes.

Merely changing a tire or whatever shouldn't mean any such
caliper re-centering, else no one would use discs,
especially in pro pelotons.

[Frank Krygowski]

One of the many reasons I prefer a truing stand is that I can put some
white paper underneath it, on the surface of my workbench. The white
background makes it much easier for me to see the gap between the rim
and the fixed indicators. (I don't bother with an actual dial indicator.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 4/17/2023 1:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/17/2023 12:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/17/2023 10:42 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:

>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 6:48:43 PM UTC-5,

>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/14/2023 2:50 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 4/14/2023 2:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/14/2023 1:17 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at

>>>>>>> 7:27:55 PM UTC+2, Mark

>>>>>>> Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at

>>>>>>>> 7:42:54 AM UTC-5,

>>>>>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at

>>>>>>>>> 4:13:52 PM UTC-4,

>>>>>>> No I don’t build

>> the front wheel. The rear seatstay bridge (or caliper if

>> so supplied) is at a reasonable working height for truing
>> and the bike is amazingly stable with saddle against one's
>> hip or a wall.
>
> One of the many reasons I prefer a truing stand is that I
> can put some white paper underneath it, on the surface of my
> workbench. The white background makes it much easier for me
> to see the gap between the rim and the fixed indicators. (I
> don't bother with an actual dial indicator.)
>

I agree. Aell lighted work area and rigidly mounted stand
are more comfortable.
My point was merely that one ought not to despair the lack
when a wheel needs attention (rim or rotor).

[Mark Cleary]

As luck would have it I happen to have in my bike toolbox the perfect fit to make the thru axle sit on the truing stand. I have a homemade headset press I made with thread rod that was 7/16 inches in OD. I put it in the wheel and it makes almost a perfect axle fit. Then I just use the 2 large washers I have for the press and nut to tighten down in the stand. It sits absolutely perfect on the Park T8 stand and good and tight. I then check my truing from the bike and it was fine. So the great news is my headset press is now my thru axle adapter for truing wheels. Making your own tools and jigs can save money and even time. I made my own dish tool years ago.

Deacon Mark

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/18/2023 12:57 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> As luck would have it I happen to have in my bike toolbox the perfect fit to make the thru axle sit on the truing stand. I have a homemade headset press I made with thread rod that was 7/16 inches in OD. I put it in the wheel and it makes almost a perfect axle fit. Then I just use the 2 large washers I have for the press and nut to tighten down in the stand. It sits absolutely perfect on the Park T8 stand and good and tight. I then check my truing from the bike and it was fine. So the great news is my headset press is now my thru axle adapter for truing wheels. Making your own tools and jigs can save money and even time. I made my own dish tool years ago.

Good deal! I make a lot of such stuff, and it's always very satisfying
when it works well.

One of the keys is to have a stock of suitable material. In the extended
family, I'm well known for retaining parts, metal stock, fasteners etc.
"for future projects." It's become a sort of family joke.

I remember once telling one of my kids "I think I can fix that for you.
I have an extra lawn mower engine in the attic of my garage." The
response? "Of _course_ you do!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

That’s I guess slightly more unusual use case, I’ve bought replacement
wheels and indeed got the bike shop to repair wheels, it’s always been on
my list of jobs that would seem likely I’d only do once in a while need
tools and arguably the bike shop can do better so, it doesn’t for me make
sense.

Wheels I’m not hard on generally, my MTB is on it’s original OEM ones and
the commute beast is on some very basic stuff, the Gravel bike did get some
nice Hunt wheels last year as I wanted to go tubeless plus the OEM wheels
where shagged, in various ways. Off road with limited suspension ie tire
volume is hard on wheels!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

That is exactly the complaint of pro riders - the brakes are always dragging and making noise and they ride so hard that they're tired all the time and figure it is because of brake drag. I know that I could pull the wheel and replace without dragging but through axles are a problem and so is mechanical disks. Pulling through axles often pulls the actuators out of alignment in my experience. I didn't like anything about disk brakes,

BTW - I tried to ride with the fast group today and they dropped me in 30 seconds. I quit after 10 miles because I was just holding them back.

[Mark Cleary]

So far I really love the hydraulic disc brakes they work great and no issues.
Deacon Mark

[Lou Holtman]

Pulling through axles often pulls the actuators out of alignment in my experience. I didn't like anything about disk brakes,
>

Huh? How is that work? What do you mean by actuators?

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 5:19:17 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:.

> > That is exactly the complaint of pro riders - the brakes are always dragging and making noise and they ride so hard that they're tired all the time and figure it is because of brake drag. I know that I could pull the wheel and replace without dragging but through axles are a problem and so is mechanical disks. Pulling through axles often pulls the actuators out of alignment in my experience. I didn't like anything about disk brakes,
> >
> > BTW - I tried to ride with the fast group today and they dropped me in 30 seconds. I quit after 10 miles because I was just holding them back.
> So far I really love the hydraulic disc brakes they work great and no issues.
> Deacon Mark

Like most people do.

Lou

[Mark Cleary]

Lou the disc brakes have zero noise. Also the front brake does not stutter as sometimes happens when the rims are not exactly smooth and you feel the pulse at the joint in rim. They stop great as far as I can tell and have not had to use them in situations yet where braking is critical. One thing that is a bit different is I set my rim brakes up so grab right away. Very little room around the rim so does not take much to pull brakes to stop. Doing this the lever never gets near the bar. However, on the hydraulic brakes even though there is zero sponginess, the level gets pull back farther to the bar. I wish I could change that because I can essentially brake with using only my index finger. The others remain around the bar; however, the lever will then hit my fingers so cannot leave them in place. It is really minor just takes some getting used as I ride. I do have the lever fully out as reach can be adjusted.

I have to say right now after my 60 mile ride yesterday and having 3 rides on the road disc bike I am really pleased. I am so glad I got the hydraulic brakes and not mechanical. Bleeding and maintenance should be pretty easy and straightforward and probably good for quite awhile. In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much. Hydraulic brakes win.

The question really is if a rim bike is better or worse, how do they stack up. Frankly my Habanero rim bike is great and give us nothing really to the disc except in wet conditions and in certain terrain. I am running 28mm tires the biggest I have ever used, and I cannot tell the difference speed wise, but on gravel or recently chipped roads the wider tire wins by a long shot. I can even go to 32mm tires if wanted.

My guess is that on a flat course all about speed the Habby rim brake bike marginally will be faster.
Deacon Mark

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 9:34:12 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:19:24 AM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 5:19:17 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:.
> > > > That is exactly the complaint of pro riders - the brakes are always dragging and making noise and they ride so hard that they're tired all the time and figure it is because of brake drag. I know that I could pull the wheel and replace without dragging but through axles are a problem and so is mechanical disks. Pulling through axles often pulls the actuators out of alignment in my experience. I didn't like anything about disk brakes,
> > > >
> > > > BTW - I tried to ride with the fast group today and they dropped me in 30 seconds. I quit after 10 miles because I was just holding them back.
> > > So far I really love the hydraulic disc brakes they work great and no issues.
> > > Deacon Mark
> > Like most people do.
> >
> > Lou
> Lou the disc brakes have zero noise. Also the front brake does not stutter as sometimes happens when the rims are not exactly smooth and you feel the pulse at the joint in rim. They stop great as far as I can tell and have not had to use them in situations yet where braking is critical. One thing that is a bit different is I set my rim brakes up so grab right away. Very little room around the rim so does not take much to pull brakes to stop. Doing this the lever never gets near the bar. However, on the hydraulic brakes even though there is zero sponginess, the level gets pull back farther to the bar. I wish I could change that because I can essentially brake with using only my index finger. The others remain around the bar; however, the lever will then hit my fingers so cannot leave them in place. It is really minor just takes some getting used as I ride. I do have the lever fully out as reach can be adjusted.

I don’t know if your levers have the same option as my GRX ones but I can set the the lever travel. You have to pull back the rubber hood and then there is some set screw visible. Google it.

>
> I have to say right now after my 60 mile ride yesterday and having 3 rides on the road disc bike I am really pleased. I am so glad I got the hydraulic brakes and not mechanical. Bleeding and maintenance should be pretty easy and straightforward and probably good for quite awhile. In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much. Hydraulic brakes win.

Mechanical disc brakes doesn’t make sense to me. Bleeding Shimano disc brakes is a non issue.

>
> The question really is if a rim bike is better or worse, how do they stack up. Frankly my Habanero rim bike is great and give us nothing really to the disc except in wet conditions and in certain terrain. I am running 28mm tires the biggest I have ever used, and I cannot tell the difference speed wise, but on gravel or recently chipped roads the wider tire wins by a long shot. I can even go to 32mm tires if wanted.

Rim brakes on aluminum rims are fine but you stil have cables. Still regret my choice for rimbrakes for my aero bike because of the CF rims on that bike. They suck big time.

Lou

[Mark Cleary]

Yes I adjust the lever all the way back with 2.5 mm allen key.
Deacon mark

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/19/2023 3:34 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> Lou the disc brakes ... stop great as far as I can tell and have not had to use them in situations yet where braking is critical.

I'd be interested in how often people here have situations where braking
is critical. I mean in the sense that they needed the fastest possible
deceleration with terrific control. I think that happened to me exactly
once, when a fawn ran out in front of me as I was doing a fast descent.

> In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much.

Same here. Also true in the city and suburbs. My riding is very
non-dramatic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

My experience with rim brakes on carbon rims was awful too. But when I put Campagnolo carbon wheel pads on the brakes they stopped on a dime. With those Campy shoes on CF rims they stopped almost as good as stock Campy brakes on aluminum rims.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 4:08:36 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 9:34:12 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:19:24 AM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 5:19:17 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:.
> > > > > That is exactly the complaint of pro riders - the brakes are always dragging and making noise and they ride so hard that they're tired all the time and figure it is because of brake drag. I know that I could pull the wheel and replace without dragging but through axles are a problem and so is mechanical disks. Pulling through axles often pulls the actuators out of alignment in my experience. I didn't like anything about disk brakes,
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW - I tried to ride with the fast group today and they dropped me in 30 seconds. I quit after 10 miles because I was just holding them back.
> > > > So far I really love the hydraulic disc brakes they work great and no issues.
> > > > Deacon Mark
> > > Like most people do.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Lou the disc brakes have zero noise. Also the front brake does not stutter as sometimes happens when the rims are not exactly smooth and you feel the pulse at the joint in rim. They stop great as far as I can tell and have not had to use them in situations yet where braking is critical. One thing that is a bit different is I set my rim brakes up so grab right away. Very little room around the rim so does not take much to pull brakes to stop. Doing this the lever never gets near the bar. However, on the hydraulic brakes even though there is zero sponginess, the level gets pull back farther to the bar. I wish I could change that because I can essentially brake with using only my index finger. The others remain around the bar; however, the lever will then hit my fingers so cannot leave them in place. It is really minor just takes some getting used as I ride. I do have the lever fully out as reach can be adjusted.
> I don’t know if your levers have the same option as my GRX ones but I can set the the lever travel. You have to pull back the rubber hood and then there is some set screw visible. Google it.
> >
> > I have to say right now after my 60 mile ride yesterday and having 3 rides on the road disc bike I am really pleased. I am so glad I got the hydraulic brakes and not mechanical. Bleeding and maintenance should be pretty easy and straightforward and probably good for quite awhile. In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much. Hydraulic brakes win.
> Mechanical disc brakes doesn’t make sense to me. Bleeding Shimano disc brakes is a non issue.

I have Avid BB7s on my hard tail - I have no issues with them. I only notice the rear to be slightly softer than the Sram G2s I have on my FS.

> >
> > The question really is if a rim bike is better or worse, how do they stack up. Frankly my Habanero rim bike is great and give us nothing really to the disc except in wet conditions and in certain terrain. I am running 28mm tires the biggest I have ever used, and I cannot tell the difference speed wise, but on gravel or recently chipped roads the wider tire wins by a long shot. I can even go to 32mm tires if wanted.
> Rim brakes on aluminum rims are fine but you stil have cables. Still regret my choice for rimbrakes for my aero bike because of the CF rims on that bike. They suck big time.

There's quite a lot of variation in the surface finish of the brake track on full carbon wheels. Maybe it's the epoxy substrate, maybe it's the style of carbon weave, maybe both...I don't know.
- I have a set of Novatec 80mm deep section wheels for my TT bike. Even cork pads don't grab those very well. The only pads that give reasonable grip are an ancient set of Mavic sintered pads I had laying around from an old set of Equippe brakes. I don't really consider it too much of a problem since you don't need your brakes much on a TT bike.
- However, I have a set of Zip Firecrest 303's on my CX bike with Kool-stop rough condition pads, Those grab as well as any brakes I've ever ridden - at least as well as any good cantis on Al MTB rims I've ridden.

>
> Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/19/2023 3:34 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >
> > Lou the disc brakes ... stop great as far as I can tell and have not had to use them in situations yet where braking is critical.
>
> I'd be interested in how often people here have situations where braking
> is critical. I mean in the sense that they needed the fastest possible
> deceleration with terrific control.

Mountain biking, just about every ride.

> I think that happened to me exactly
> once, when a fawn ran out in front of me as I was doing a fast descent.
> > In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much.
> Same here. Also true in the city and suburbs. My riding is very
> non-dramatic.

The thing you're forgetting is that it's next to impossible to by a new mid-to-high end frame with rim brake fittings any more, and rim brake wheels are getting harder and harder to find. Yes, it's doable, but you're either stuck with low-end wheels/frames or used stuff. High-end rim manufacturers aren't even advertising rim brake wheels on their websites any more - the ones that do have extremely limited higher end offerings, if any.

Mavic shows exactly two rims on their entire website.

https://www.mavic.com/en-us/rims.html#chbrake-type=11668

With 4 types of pre-built. Three of those are in the multiple thousand dollar rage, while one is $300 for the pair

https://www.mavic.com/en-us/wheels.html#chbrake-type=16800

The point is, the time is rapidly approaching where using rim brakes versus disc brakes in no longer a matter of choice.

[Lou Holtman]

FYI I have also a Zip Firecrest 303 wheelset on my aerobike with original Zip brake pads. To answer Toms post I used original Campagnolo brakepads on original Campagnolo Hyperon wheelset. I rate the brake performance for both as a order of a magnitude less than a rim brake/aluminium combo or a disk brake.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:14:00 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:49:00 AM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 4:08:36 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> > > Rim brakes on aluminum rims are fine but you stil have cables. Still regret my choice for rimbrakes for my aero bike because of the CF rims on that bike. They suck big time.
> > There's quite a lot of variation in the surface finish of the brake track on full carbon wheels. Maybe it's the epoxy substrate, maybe it's the style of carbon weave, maybe both...I don't know.
> > - I have a set of Novatec 80mm deep section wheels for my TT bike. Even cork pads don't grab those very well. The only pads that give reasonable grip are an ancient set of Mavic sintered pads I had laying around from an old set of Equippe brakes. I don't really consider it too much of a problem since you don't need your brakes much on a TT bike.
> > - However, I have a set of Zip Firecrest 303's on my CX bike with Kool-stop rough condition pads, Those grab as well as any brakes I've ever ridden - at least as well as any good cantis on Al MTB rims I've ridden.
>
> FYI I have also a Zip Firecrest 303 wheelset on my aerobike with original Zip brake pads.

Is that the combination that "sucks big time"?

I've been tempted to try the Kool Stops on my TT bike, just haven't gotten around to it.

[Lou Holtman]

Maybe but I can't try every brake pad. I can live with it in dry conditions on flat terrain. With CF rins disk brakes are the way to go. I have no doubts about that based on my experience. No one can convince me otherwise.

>
> I've been tempted to try the Kool Stops on my TT bike, just haven't gotten around to it.

My Aeroad come with some Mavic CF wheels with yellow brake pads. I used them with my Zipp wheels and the were even worse than the Zipp pads/

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I really cannot understand how you could have any problem with them. There are a couple of hills I descend that are 20% and have stop signs on three places. I have to come to complete stops at them. With the Chinese pads (the same supplied with Zipp) the bike would not come to a complete stop and there was cross traffic all the time. Also there was another downhill that was 2 miles long that ended at a stop light and heavy traffic entering the freeway. These problems completely disappeared and I would break as if using aluminum wheels when I switched to Campy CF pads.

I have an idea that you slam on the brakes at the last possible instant and that is why you like disks. Aluminum rims wouldn't stand that either.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/19/2023 3:34 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>
>>> Lou the disc brakes ... stop great as far as I can tell and have not had to use them in situations yet where braking is critical.
>>
>> I'd be interested in how often people here have situations where braking
>> is critical. I mean in the sense that they needed the fastest possible
>> deceleration with terrific control.
>
> Mountain biking, just about every ride.

OK, and I've said before that I can understand using discs for mountain
biking. When Jay was still here, I also said his daily commuting in
rainy Portland was fine justification. But I still contend that few
bicyclists ever use their bike's ultimate braking capability. I
certainly haven't, except perhaps once, in which my rim brakes worked fine.

>> I think that happened to me exactly
>> once, when a fawn ran out in front of me as I was doing a fast descent.
>>> In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much.
>> Same here. Also true in the city and suburbs. My riding is very
>> non-dramatic.
>
> The thing you're forgetting is that it's next to impossible to by a new mid-to-high end frame with rim brake fittings any more, and rim brake wheels are getting harder and harder to find.

Yep. Disc brakes are being imposed on us.

But then, I don't "churn" through bikes like Tom does. I'm also a guy
who buys bikes and uses them forever. I don't chase every new
development in weight reduction (or fragility). I don't compete, so I'm
not concerned about minor speed improvements.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07 PM UTC-4, Frank

Road discs are here. The industry is not going back.

[Roger Meriman]

Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 2:07:26 PM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:14:00 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:49:00 AM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 4:08:36 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Rim brakes on aluminum rims are fine but you stil have cables. Still
>>>>> regret my choice for rimbrakes for my aero bike because of the CF
>>>>> rims on that bike. They suck big time.
>>>> There's quite a lot of variation in the surface finish of the brake
>>>> track on full carbon wheels. Maybe it's the epoxy substrate, maybe
>>>> it's the style of carbon weave, maybe both...I don't know.
>>>> - I have a set of Novatec 80mm deep section wheels for my TT bike.
>>>> Even cork pads don't grab those very well. The only pads that give
>>>> reasonable grip are an ancient set of Mavic sintered pads I had laying
>>>> around from an old set of Equippe brakes. I don't really consider it
>>>> too much of a problem since you don't need your brakes much on a TT bike.
>>>> - However, I have a set of Zip Firecrest 303's on my CX bike with
>>>> Kool-stop rough condition pads, Those grab as well as any brakes I've
>>>> ever ridden - at least as well as any good cantis on Al MTB rims I've ridden.
>>>
>>> FYI I have also a Zip Firecrest 303 wheelset on my aerobike with original Zip brake pads.
>> Is that the combination that "sucks big time"?
>
> Maybe but I can't try every brake pad. I can live with it in dry
> conditions on flat terrain. With CF rins disk brakes are the way to go. I
> have no doubts about that based on my experience. No one can convince me otherwise.

That would correlate with my 2nd hand experience be that cycling buddies or
simply other commuters in particular London Embankment which is big wide
fast road, with fair number of stops, and london has fairly damp
environment.

>>
>> I've been tempted to try the Kool Stops on my TT bike, just haven't gotten around to it.
>
> My Aeroad come with some Mavic CF wheels with yellow brake pads. I used
> them with my Zipp wheels and the were even worse than the Zipp pads/
>
> Lou
>

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 4/19/2023 3:34 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>
>> Lou the disc brakes ... stop great as far as I can tell and have not had
>> to use them in situations yet where braking is critical.
>
> I'd be interested in how often people here have situations where braking
> is critical. I mean in the sense that they needed the fastest possible
> deceleration with terrific control. I think that happened to me exactly
> once, when a fawn ran out in front of me as I was doing a fast descent.
>

I push both my MTB and Gravel bike, the Gravel bike even on road as it can
handle much more powerful braking and control ie not having to grab a
handful but hold it on the edge.

>> In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much.
>
> Same here. Also true in the city and suburbs. My riding is very
> non-dramatic.
>

On the commute my riding is fairly non dramatic. The old MTB has hand me
down brakes from my newer MTB, having brakes that don’t fade in the wet be
that standing water or downpours is part of that.

I’m not braking hard the difference is I don’t need to grab a handful of
brakes as they have water on rims.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed and in my experience driven by consumer interest, years back if not
decades ago folks where talking about wanting disks on road bikes.

I get the frustration if you have a high end bike as rim brake wheels at
that level is apparently diminishing.

See Simon Warren who is much save the Rim Brake and retro grouch to a
degree.

https://youtu.be/nwsG49-C7I4

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 13:43:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07?PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/19/2023 3:34 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Lou the disc brakes ... stop great as far as I can tell and have not had to use them in situations yet where braking is critical.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested in how often people here have situations where braking
>>> is critical. I mean in the sense that they needed the fastest possible
>>> deceleration with terrific control.
>>
>> Mountain biking, just about every ride.
>
>OK, and I've said before that I can understand using discs for mountain
>biking. When Jay was still here, I also said his daily commuting in
>rainy Portland was fine justification. But I still contend that few
>bicyclists ever use their bike's ultimate braking capability. I
>certainly haven't, except perhaps once, in which my rim brakes worked fine.
>
>>> I think that happened to me exactly
>>> once, when a fawn ran out in front of me as I was doing a fast descent.
>>>> In my rides out in the country I don't use brakes all the much.
>>> Same here. Also true in the city and suburbs. My riding is very
>>> non-dramatic.
>>
>> The thing you're forgetting is that it's next to impossible to by a new mid-to-high end frame with rim brake fittings any more, and rim brake wheels are getting harder and harder to find.
>
>Yep. Disc brakes are being imposed on us.

Ohhhh, poor baby...

>But then, I don't "churn" through bikes like Tom does. I'm also a guy
>who buys bikes and uses them forever. I don't chase every new
>development in weight reduction (or fragility). I don't compete, so I'm
>not concerned about minor speed improvements.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to keep your "used," "forever"
bikes in rim brake pads as long as you need. Shouldn't be a problem
since you don't ride so much any more.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:52:20 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07 PM UTC-4, Frank

Discs are the only option for my Catrike. After using them for 20+
years, I'm sold on them.

[Roger Meriman]

Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:52:20 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07 PM UTC-4, Frank

I’ve used them close on that time and hydraulic was quite a gap in time and
technology between that first bike and the one before that. Ie went from a
90’s rigid bike with canti to a hardtail with disks.

Which I still have and is now rigid and my commute bike.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:31:19 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:52:20 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07â?¯PM UTC-4, Frank

Mine are Avid BB7s, which take a cable. With two front brakes,
stopping power is phenominal. I have to set them so that a full pull
won't lock them up with the speed above about 5 MPH. It's too easy to
stop so short I'll get flipped forward and do a face plant on the
ground, or worse, onto the Chain rings.

[Roger Meriman]

You have said, which seems to be a feature of the geometry of the trike, my
bikes are fairly relaxed even the Gravel bike so can use the power even at
low speeds.

Though hydraulic is less grabby than cable though if it works? Why change
it!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 22:11:21 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:31:19 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:52:20 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07â?ŻPM UTC-4, Frank

>>> I?ve used them close on that time and hydraulic was quite a gap in time and

>>> technology between that first bike and the one before that. Ie went from a

>>> 90?s rigid bike with canti to a hardtail with disks.

>>>
>>> Which I still have and is now rigid and my commute bike.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Mine are Avid BB7s, which take a cable. With two front brakes,
>> stopping power is phenominal. I have to set them so that a full pull
>> won't lock them up with the speed above about 5 MPH. It's too easy to
>> stop so short I'll get flipped forward and do a face plant on the
>> ground, or worse, onto the Chain rings.
>>
>You have said, which seems to be a feature of the geometry of the trike, my
>bikes are fairly relaxed even the Gravel bike so can use the power even at
>low speeds.
>
>Though hydraulic is less grabby than cable though if it works? Why change
>it!
>
>Roger Merriman
>

I have no interest in going hydraulic.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/20/2023 2:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yep. Disc brakes are being imposed on us.
>

> Road discs are here.  The industry is not going back.

Probably true. Road discs are here. So are huge SUVs for transporting
one person. So are tattoos. And 3000 square foot homes on cul-de-sacs
ten miles from town. And multi-colored hairdos. And jeans with extra
cost, pre-worn-out knees. And fidget spinners.

I keep on not keeping up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 4/20/2023 5:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/20/2023 2:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Yep. Disc brakes are being imposed on us.
>>

>> Road discs are here. The industry is not going back.

>
> Probably true. Road discs are here. So are huge SUVs for
> transporting one person. So are tattoos. And 3000 square
> foot homes on cul-de-sacs ten miles from town. And
> multi-colored hairdos. And jeans with extra cost,
> pre-worn-out knees. And fidget spinners.
>
> I keep on not keeping up.
>

I share your disdain for some of that (not all) but hey it's
a free country (somewhat, still...). Celebrate diversity!

[John B.]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 22:11:21 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:31:19 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:52:20 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07â?ŻPM UTC-4, Frank

>>> I?ve used them close on that time and hydraulic was quite a gap in time and

>>> technology between that first bike and the one before that. Ie went from a

>>> 90?s rigid bike with canti to a hardtail with disks.

>>>
>>> Which I still have and is now rigid and my commute bike.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Mine are Avid BB7s, which take a cable. With two front brakes,
>> stopping power is phenominal. I have to set them so that a full pull
>> won't lock them up with the speed above about 5 MPH. It's too easy to
>> stop so short I'll get flipped forward and do a face plant on the
>> ground, or worse, onto the Chain rings.
>>
>You have said, which seems to be a feature of the geometry of the trike, my
>bikes are fairly relaxed even the Gravel bike so can use the power even at
>low speeds.
>
>Though hydraulic is less grabby than cable though if it works? Why change
>it!
>
>Roger Merriman
>

My attitude toward my "Bangkok" bike - manual rim brakes and down tube
shifters (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

You cannot understand? Probably the same as I don’t understand your issues with disk brakes. I can’t use Campy pads on Shimano calipers btw. When I used the Campy pads on my hyperon wheels they suck also. That was quite a time ago so maybe they improved the pads for CF rims.

>
> I have an idea that you slam on the brakes at the last possible instant and that is why you like disks. Aluminum rims wouldn't stand that either.

I don’t slam my brakes. I am a gentle braker. That is why I like hydraulic disk brakes. The lever feel is so smooth with excellent modulation.

Lou

[Roger Meriman]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 22:11:21 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:31:19 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:52:20 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07â?¯PM UTC-4, Frank

I never grew up with road bikes, so when I picked up a old road bike with
Down Tube shifters was a bit of culture shock, this said as long as
unhurried quite enjoyed them even in friction form.

But yes while I do like disks and so on, I also don’t chase all stuff.

Point being new features being rolled out across GPS computers which
display the hill and it’s grades. Which my device will do on a route but
modern ones will do without following a route.

It is quite useful if riding up hills in places you don’t know.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Frank can thank his lucky stars that he didn't get a head injury erasing many things and thus allowing him to say stupid crap about me having to relearn things that he takes for granted. I have now settled on old steel frames but from the early 2000's which were light, fast and handled well. Probably exactly what I was riding before the injury.

As for the arguement against disks, I don't know. I don't like them but Lou does. Mark presently likes them but the first time he has an emergency stop and goes over the handlebars will he continue to like them? This absolutely NOT an experience thing like Lou seems to think. My steep downhill crash could be written off as inexperience by Lou but watching a race there was a big pileup and a water carrier was returning to the peloton, over applied the brakes and did exactly the same over-the-bars I did on flat ground. Lou cannot tell me that somehow he is much more a master of his bike than a pro of even the smallest experience.

Now, electronic shifting may be another story. While I prefer simple cable operations, I simply CANNOT get it to work perfectly for very long. And the electronic shifting worked perfect after setting it up until I sold it. And that was thousands of miles later. I am certain that Shimano came to the conclusion that the slightest wear makes the shifting inaccurate and developed electronic shifting not because they could sell it more expensively but because their engineers came to the conclusion that it was the only way to achieve long term shifting reliability. Think of it - 12 speeds means a VERY narrow spacing between gears. Even on the 11 speeds I can't get long term shifting accuracy. Even the 10 speed needed to be touched up often though my 8 and 9 speed setups worked fine.

And what does the normal sports rider to with all of those gears? I use high gear downhill, 3rd from high on slight downhill or wind at your back moments. I climb in the bottom three gears. I almost NEVER use the one tooth between them gears. So I do a lot of shifting to avoid those gears.

[Tom Kunich]

I see disks as quite well come on a full suspension 29er. They have the weight and wheelbase to be stable under heavy braking. I have had them on a half dozen road bikes and still on my gravel bike, but I consider them extraneous on road bike. Far too powerful for a 16 lb bike.

[Tom Kunich]

When was the last time you did an endo on your Catrike?

[Tom Kunich]

Campy brake pad holders are interchangeable with Shimano. And if you're a smooth easy brake application type you are only using disks because it is a fad and not because they offer lighter weight, more aero design and simpler installation and maintenance.

But of course you ride what you like, just don't try to justify it as something it isn't.

[Lou Holtman]

I don't have to justify anything to anybody. Certainly not to you. I just share my experience with my equipment. I have unlimited resources concerning bikes/bike riding, so I ride what I like and don't make anything up. Rode my 6.9 kg 2014 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX bike today with rim brakes on ALU rims and mechanical shifting. I am not complaining.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, no one is asking you to justify anything. You are free to ride anything you like. But it is a fact that telling us about a 15 lb bike that you would put a 2.5 lb braking system on seems to me to be counter productive. That you like one finger braking is good for you, but I see it as disappearing for expense and weight. When even the pros are complaining about it. it is unlikely to be a permanent feature of the landscape no matter what Andrew thinks.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 07:10:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:49:20?PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:52:20 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>> >AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >> On 4/20/2023 12:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 4/20/2023 6:02 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> >>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:06:07?PM UTC-4, Frank

Just last fall a doe darted out in front of me. I've heard of trike
riders flipping themselves headfirst into whatever they were trying to
stop for. They claimed that the chain rings slammed into the ground
so hard that it lifted the front wheels off the ground, too.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/21/2023 8:51 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> Actually I converted one set of down tube shifters from indexed to
> friction as I found it was easier to use them in friction mode then to
> keep the indexed shifters "in tune".

One of my folding bikes has indexed bar end shifters. Those can be
quickly converted to friction shifting by the twist of a knob. I used to
have to make that change pretty frequently, I assume because of the
cables' contortions during the folding and unfolding process. Nowadays I
generally just leave it in friction mode.

Many detail changes were needed in derailleurs, cogs, cables etc. to get
index to work. All those changes make friction shifting far easier than
it once was.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/21/2023 10:10 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> When was the last time you did an endo on your Catrike?

To get an idea of the deceleration needed for an endo on flat ground
(e.g. a bike path), draw a side view of a bike or trike. Draw a line
from the center of mass of the bike+rider down to the point where the
front tire touches the ground. Measure the slope of that line - the
angle of that line with horizontal.

Subtract that angle from 90 degrees. Find its tangent. Multiply the
result by the acceleration of gravity. That will give you the bike's
deceleration necessary to endo.

Our tricycle rider has said that his seat is less than 7" above the
ground. I strongly suspect the line I described has a slope less than 15
degrees.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 4:15:28?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 2:45:01?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 4:18:31?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 3:14:00?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:49:00?AM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> > > > > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 4:08:36?PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > Rim brakes on aluminum rims are fine but you stil have cables. Still regret my choice for rimbrakes for my aero bike because of the CF rims on that bike. They suck big time.
>> > > > > There's quite a lot of variation in the surface finish of the brake track on full carbon wheels. Maybe it's the epoxy substrate, maybe it's the style of carbon weave, maybe both...I don't know.
>> > > > > - I have a set of Novatec 80mm deep section wheels for my TT bike. Even cork pads don't grab those very well. The only pads that give reasonable grip are an ancient set of Mavic sintered pads I had laying around from an old set of Equippe brakes. I don't really consider it too much of a problem since you don't need your brakes much on a TT bike.
>> > > > > - However, I have a set of Zip Firecrest 303's on my CX bike with Kool-stop rough condition pads, Those grab as well as any brakes I've ever ridden - at least as well as any good cantis on Al MTB rims I've ridden.
>> > > > FYI I have also a Zip Firecrest 303 wheelset on my aerobike with original Zip brake pads. To answer Toms post I used original Campagnolo brakepads on original Campagnolo Hyperon wheelset. I rate the brake performance for both as a order of a magnitude less than a rim brake/aluminium combo or a disk brake.
>> > > >
>> > > > Lou
>> > > I really cannot understand how you could have any problem with them. There are a couple of hills I descend that are 20% and have stop signs on three places. I have to come to complete stops at them. With the Chinese pads (the same supplied with Zipp) the bike would not come to a complete stop and there was cross traffic all the time. Also there was another downhill that was 2 miles long that ended at a stop light and heavy traffic entering the freeway. These problems completely disappeared and I would break as if using aluminum wheels when I switched to Campy CF pads.
>> > You cannot understand? Probably the same as I don’t understand your issues with disk brakes. I can’t use Campy pads on Shimano calipers btw. When I used the Campy pads on my hyperon wheels they suck also. That was quite a time ago so maybe they improved the pads for CF rims.
>> > >
>> > > I have an idea that you slam on the brakes at the last possible instant and that is why you like disks. Aluminum rims wouldn't stand that either.
>> > I don’t slam my brakes. I am a gentle braker. That is why I like hydraulic disk brakes. The lever feel is so smooth with excellent modulation.
>> Campy brake pad holders are interchangeable with Shimano. And if you're a smooth easy brake application type you are only using disks because it is a fad and not because they offer lighter weight, more aero design and simpler installation and maintenance.
>>
>> But of course you ride what you like, just don't try to justify it as something it isn't.
>
>I don't have to justify anything to anybody. Certainly not to you. I just share my experience with my equipment. I have unlimited resources concerning bikes/bike riding, so I ride what I like and don't make anything up. Rode my 6.9 kg 2014 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX bike today with rim brakes on ALU rims and mechanical shifting. I am not complaining.
>
>Lou

+1

[AMuzi]

On 4/21/2023 10:20 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 4:15:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 2:45:01 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 4:18:31 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 3:14:00 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:49:00 AM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 4:08:36 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rim brakes on aluminum rims are fine but you stil have cables. Still regret my choice for rimbrakes for my aero bike because of the CF rims on that bike. They suck big time.
>>>>>> There's quite a lot of variation in the surface finish of the brake track on full carbon wheels. Maybe it's the epoxy substrate, maybe it's the style of carbon weave, maybe both...I don't know.
>>>>>> - I have a set of Novatec 80mm deep section wheels for my TT bike. Even cork pads don't grab those very well. The only pads that give reasonable grip are an ancient set of Mavic sintered pads I had laying around from an old set of Equippe brakes. I don't really consider it too much of a problem since you don't need your brakes much on a TT bike.
>>>>>> - However, I have a set of Zip Firecrest 303's on my CX bike with Kool-stop rough condition pads, Those grab as well as any brakes I've ever ridden - at least as well as any good cantis on Al MTB rims I've ridden.
>>>>> FYI I have also a Zip Firecrest 303 wheelset on my aerobike with original Zip brake pads. To answer Toms post I used original Campagnolo brakepads on original Campagnolo Hyperon wheelset. I rate the brake performance for both as a order of a magnitude less than a rim brake/aluminium combo or a disk brake.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> I really cannot understand how you could have any problem with them. There are a couple of hills I descend that are 20% and have stop signs on three places. I have to come to complete stops at them. With the Chinese pads (the same supplied with Zipp) the bike would not come to a complete stop and there was cross traffic all the time. Also there was another downhill that was 2 miles long that ended at a stop light and heavy traffic entering the freeway. These problems completely disappeared and I would break as if using aluminum wheels when I switched to Campy CF pads.

>>> You cannot understand? Probably the same as I don’t understand your issues with disk brakes. I can’t use Campy pads on Shimano calipers btw. When I used the Campy pads on my hyperon wheels they suck also. That was quite a time ago so maybe they improved the pads for CF rims.

>>>>
>>>> I have an idea that you slam on the brakes at the last possible instant and that is why you like disks. Aluminum rims wouldn't stand that either.

>>> I don’t slam my brakes. I am a gentle braker. That is why I like hydraulic disk brakes. The lever feel is so smooth with excellent modulation.

>> Campy brake pad holders are interchangeable with Shimano. And if you're a smooth easy brake application type you are only using disks because it is a fad and not because they offer lighter weight, more aero design and simpler installation and maintenance.
>>
>> But of course you ride what you like, just don't try to justify it as something it isn't.
>
> I don't have to justify anything to anybody. Certainly not to you. I just share my experience with my equipment. I have unlimited resources concerning bikes/bike riding, so I ride what I like and don't make anything up. Rode my 6.9 kg 2014 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX bike today with rim brakes on ALU rims and mechanical shifting. I am not complaining.
>
> Lou
>

+1

[Mark Cleary]

I am a jazz guitarist and own by definition some of the finest jazz guitars ever made. I don't play to the level of the finest players but hey, I am by far the best player on the block where I live. I can easily produce and make music on guitars cost way less money. At about $1200 regarding guitars is the price point. Above that you just get fancier and more bling. In real life of making music the gain is little. I might even argue that about $1200 for a used road bike same situation.

No difference when it comes to a bike. I don't know but if I had standard road bike with 10 speeds that shifted good and was made of either, steel, al, CF, or Ti, I probably would not be any faster or do any better than the lastest Trek with 12 speeds and Di2. It would probably be more enjoyable and possible look much cooler but performance would essentially be the same.

So my Gibson Super 400 looks much cooler than the import copy from China and feels better in the hands. However when playing a burning bebop tune with a quartet the copy will perform as well that only a musician would know the difference. Super 400 these days are about $9-13K and a nice copy can be had for about $1800.
Deacon Mark

[Mark Cleary]

This is a little of topic but give me your real opinion I am testing new mic. Nothing fancy but nice tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF1ZLbCQT2o
Deacon Mark

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

2.5 pounds? wow!!!!

https://road.cc/content/feature/8-reasons-not-get-disc-brakes-256225
"The weight difference isn't huge but it can often be around a pound over the whole bike when everything is taken into account."

All the below listed weights from here: https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/components/road.html

Shimano 105 R7100 cable shift/hydraulic brake lever 610/pair
Shimano 105 R7100 disc calipers weight 123g each, rotors 135g
Shimano 105 disc 1126g total

Shimano 105 R7000 cable shift/rim brake lever 500/pair
Shimano 105 5800 dual pivot is 335/pair
Shimano 105 R7100 rim 835 total

105 weight difference 295g = ~ 10.5 oz

Shimano Dura-ace cable shift/hydralic brake levers (ST-R9120) 538/pair
Shimano Dura-ace R9100 Series disc caliper 130g front/110g rear, rotors are 120 eac,
Dura-ace disc set 1018g

Shimano Dura-ace R9100 Series dual pivot is 165g each, 330 for a set of two.
Shimano Dura-ace cable shift/rim brake levers 365/pair
Dura-ace rim total 695

Dura-ace wieght difference 323g = ~11.4 oz

so, somewhere we need to find over 800g (1 3/4 pounds) of more weight.

You _do_ need a beefier hub for disc brakes, but you get a break with a lighter rim

ULTEGRA RS770 tubeless disc wheel set 1637g
Ultegra RS700 tubless rim brake wheel set 1540g

Well, there's 100g, only 700 more to go!

Sorry though, not much more to it. Cables vs hoses and fluid? sure....numbers for that are hard to come by, but if someone can show me that there is a weight difference of over 700 grams between hose + fluid vs cables, go for it. I'm not buying it.

> on seems to me to be counter productive. That you like one finger braking is good for you, but I see it as disappearing for expense and weight. When even the pros are complaining about it.

no, they aren't.

> it is unlikely to be a permanent feature of the landscape no matter what Andrew thinks.

And there's going to be a red wave the next election!

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I could see it happening, but you'd have to be moving at a pretty good clip.

[Roger Meriman]

Wasn’t hugely fan for the rear mech but I liked the friction for the front
mech, on a bike that was used in a very chilled environment, ie no fast
shifting needed so not MTB/Gravel but rolls out around the parks and what
not be fine!

And indeed was when I had that bike!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

The trike looked more weight forward than even a road bike with slammed
stems and so on position, plus unable to adjust body position.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

MTB weight is irrelevant note also that MTB/Gravel/road bikes will overlap
hugely in weights.

But most of the weight is the rider, it’s the usage which is why MTB took
to disks first, with road following decades later. The advantages are much
less for a road bike, but on the whole hydraulic systems are much easier to
live with and do have advantages mainly power and feel.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 19:54:38 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

Very much more weight forward, both bike and rider.

[AMuzi]

Mr Krygowski noted earlier the method to evaluate that.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/21/2023 1:47 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> I am a jazz guitarist and own by definition some of the finest jazz
guitars ever made. I don't play to the level of the finest players but
hey, I am by far the best player on the block where I live. I can easily
produce and make music on guitars cost way less money. At about $1200
regarding guitars is the price point. Above that you just get fancier
and more bling. In real life of making music the gain is little. I might
even argue that about $1200 for a used road bike same situation.
>
> No difference when it comes to a bike. I don't know but if I had
standard road bike with 10 speeds that shifted good and was made of
either, steel, al, CF, or Ti, I probably would not be any faster or do
any better than the lastest Trek with 12 speeds and Di2. It would
probably be more enjoyable and possible look much cooler but performance
would essentially be the same.
>
> So my Gibson Super 400 looks much cooler than the import copy from
China and feels better in the hands. However when playing a burning
bebop tune with a quartet the copy will perform as well that only a
musician would know the difference. Super 400 these days are about
$9-13K and a nice copy can be had for about $1800.

More along that line of thought: I play several instruments. Musicians
have been called "finger athletes," people who call on their fingers and
hands to do things that are far beyond the capability of those not
trained on instruments. You might say their skills put them at the edge
of human capability.

As such, musicians are very sensitive to tiny differences in instrument
size, shape, setup and response. As a simple example, a guitar whose
action is too high will tremendously hamper the fast finger moves
required to play certain passages, especially in upper positions.

Bikes are much different. Pro level racers arent' separated by fine
finger movements. They're separated primarily by their power, their
endurance and somewhat by their tactics.

It may feel a little nicer to shift or brake with slightly less finger
pressure, but it's not going to make a practical difference in outcomes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

I don't need to do evaluate it. Any low-riding trike rider knows how
easily it is to lift the rear wheel.

[Lou Holtman]

Define outcome.

Lou

[Mark Cleary]

Frank I also repair guitars for a living and I can tell you picking up the average guitar off the shelf in a music store is horrible. I like my action to be 5/64 and 4/64 at the 12 the fret both E strings. Actually just a shade under that measure but not measurable. Many are going around playing guitars that are like cyclist carry around 16 pound bowling balls. I can tell in an instant picking up a guitar if it is not set up correctly, and if it is not set up to my own standards. Not mention they have messy frets that need attention.
Deacon Mark

[Frank Krygowski]

Here's a photo of a Catrike:
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/be9aca_c638b92918a1428482a9ef4ce498fd7c~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1146,h_764,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/be9aca_c638b92918a1428482a9ef4ce498fd7c~mv2.jpg

On a standard upright bike, the center of mass of the bike+rider is
usually somewhere near the rider's hips. Given the mass of the forward
boom plus crankset, the center of mass of the Catrike is probably more
forward, so the angle is higher than I expected. If it's 45 degrees,
anything over a one gee stop will have the rear wheel lifting.

But a one gee stop requires a coefficient of friction equal to one.
That's some sticky rubber.

The tricycle rider said he lowered his seat. Doing that will increase
the deceleration needed to endo.

But there's another influence. Jobst once said that in his opinion, most
upright rider's endos were not the simple case of directly straight over
the bars. His opinion was that many riders, on emergency braking, failed
to keep the front wheel pointed straight ahead. In effect, their front
wheel steered away from supporting them in the forward direction.

ISTM that a tricyclist who squeezes harder on one brake than another in
an emergency could trigger a similar crash. Squeezing harder on the
right would result in more rearward force on the right and the bike
turning to the right. I suppose this could conceivably lead to a crash,
perhaps not directly forward, but bad enough. (All that assumes the two
brakes are not linked. In the low recumbent trike I owned for a while,
they were not.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Looking at that riders legs are going to be beyond the front axel, and in
general weight does look forward, plus it’s clearly going to not end well
if you ground the chainrings!

Off road ie MTB intended stuff is much longer more stable frame, and from
memory further back, plus to protect feet and so on from impacts!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:46:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/21/2023 3:12 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

Two front wheels.... 40-406 20x1.50

>The tricycle rider said he lowered his seat. Doing that will increase
>the deceleration needed to endo.
>
>But there's another influence. Jobst once said that in his opinion, most
>upright rider's endos were not the simple case of directly straight over
>the bars. His opinion was that many riders, on emergency braking, failed
>to keep the front wheel pointed straight ahead. In effect, their front
>wheel steered away from supporting them in the forward direction.
>
>ISTM that a tricyclist who squeezes harder on one brake than another in
>an emergency could trigger a similar crash. Squeezing harder on the
>right would result in more rearward force on the right and the bike
>turning to the right. I suppose this could conceivably lead to a crash,
>perhaps not directly forward, but bad enough. (All that assumes the two
>brakes are not linked. In the low recumbent trike I owned for a while,
>they were not.)

Handling the two front wheel braking takes practice. The longer
wheelbase helps with the rear wheel providing directional stability as
long as it's not been lightened/lifted. I've read of people having
serious trouble on high speed downhills by applying the brakes
unevenly, lightening or lifting the rear wheel which causes a total
loss of directional stability and going ass over teakettle. Some of
the newer trikes now have a rear brake for situations like that.

As I've mentioned before, I've set my brakes so they will not lock the
wheels at higher speeds.. I'm still sure I can stop shorter than most
two-wheelers. To front wheels make a big difference.

BTW, I don't believe you ever owned a low recumbent trike for a while,
at least not a quality one. If you had, you'd have a better
understanding of the braking...

[Roger Meriman]

Look at photos of riders on CatTrikes their knee is inline with the front
axel, there feet are out further along with the chain rings.

recumbents trikes tend not to bother with the rear wheel for braking, as
far as I can tell seems to correlate with his experience.

Ie fairly forward heavy design, and having a wee google apparently can lift
the rear wheel if one brakes hard enough, though does need to be fairly
brutal at low speeds etc.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Getting from place to place on a bike. Even when trying to do it fast.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/21/2023 6:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> BTW, I don't believe you ever owned a low recumbent trike for a while,
> at least not a quality one.

Of course you don't. You believe only what originates in your imagination.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/1801438406/in/dateposted-public/

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

If indeed, *that awful thing* was something you owned and tried to
ride, I can see why you're not a fan of trikes. I can see many things
that make it totally unacceptable. Why on Earth would you buy such a
monstrosity or even accept it as a gift.?

[Lou Holtman]

It is about the journey not the destination for me and a lot op people. I start at home and I end at home. Better to make that journey as pleasant as possible. I think a creaking pedal or saddle also doesn’t make a practical difference in outcome but still. Even wet feet because of no mudguards doesn’t.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 03:09:37 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 2:12:46?AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/21/2023 5:15 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I'm a perfectionist for many things, my bicycle rides being one of
them. I want, perhaps, need everything about my bike to be perfect
and I'm contantly changing/adjusting things.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/22/2023 6:09 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 2:12:46 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/21/2023 5:15 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 10:52:41 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It may feel a little nicer to shift or brake with slightly less finger
>>>> pressure, but it's not going to make a practical difference in outcomes.
>>>>
>>>

>>> Define outcome.

>>>
>> Getting from place to place on a bike. Even when trying to do it fast.
>
> It is about the journey not the destination for me and a lot op people. I start at home and I end at home. Better to make that journey as pleasant as possible.

That's fine for you. For me, shifting gears with half an ounce of force
on the lever is not significantly better than shifting with one ounce of
force.

When I'm riding, I pay attention to scenery, road conditions, perhaps
conversations with fellow riders. I don't pay attention to minor
difference in control actuators. If it works, I'm good. YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

Not only do I like full-length mudguards/fenders on my bike if riding in the rain or on wet roads, I also use full length spray flaps I made and attached to the bottom of the mudguards/fenders. My spray flaps stop just a bit from the road surface and are quite effective at keep water spray off of my feet. Riding with wet cold feet is NOT pleasant.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

I agree, strongly.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

For the commute bike yes though as it’s a old MTB though fairly well
covered not full length, though to be honest if some spray behind I’m not
bothered. Not a fan of folks close behind on the commute.

On my other bikes as both are off road, while on the MTB have a fork guard
to keep face splatter to the minimum, that’s about it.

Mainly I don’t want to clogging.

Roger Merriman

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 12:22:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Nowadays I
> generally just leave it in friction mode.

My elderly road bike has friction shifters, my "wheelchair bike" (the
flatfoot I ride when I can't walk) has an indexed shifter.

I don't see indexing as any improvement of any kind over friction.


But:

I wore out a drivetrain learning to friction shift, and if I'm sick
for six months, I have to shift half a dozen times before the skill
comes back.

I shifted the flatfoot perfectly when I was still in the parking lot
deciding whether or not to buy it. (My sprained knee loved it, by
the way.)

So I don't see anything but index shifters being sold in the future.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Tom Kunich]

No worries Joy, bar end shifters for touring bikes will always be available and most have a friction mode.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/25/2023 10:39 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 12:22:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Nowadays I
>> generally just leave it in friction mode.
>
> My elderly road bike has friction shifters, my "wheelchair bike" (the
> flatfoot I ride when I can't walk) has an indexed shifter.
>
> I don't see indexing as any improvement of any kind over friction.
>
>
> But:
>
> I wore out a drivetrain learning to friction shift, and if I'm sick
> for six months, I have to shift half a dozen times before the skill
> comes back.
>
> I shifted the flatfoot perfectly when I was still in the parking lot
> deciding whether or not to buy it. (My sprained knee loved it, by
> the way.)
>
> So I don't see anything but index shifters being sold in the future.

I think bar end shifters will continue being sold, even though they're a
niche product. Long distance tourists and time trialers still like them,
for different reasons. And most of those can be switched to friction mode.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

I have bar-end shifters on two of my bikes and Campagnolo 9-speed Ergo shifters o two others. I prefer the Mirage Ergos because I shift more often with them and I don't have to worry about the shift-lever getting bumped out of position.
For mechanical simplicity, there's not much that can beat the bar-end shifters.

Cheers