Amazon Ads

[Tom Kunich]

Amazon sent me an add for Gatorskins. The price was pretty good for these days (staggeringly expensive for just three years ago). So I bought a pair for winter tires. They are very hard to flat.

They were folding tires, but since I have a set of Campy Sciroccos to mount them on, it didn't matter whether they were folding or not. That just makes it easier to store them. It adds nothing of value to the tire that I can tell.

Well, I immediately (AFTER they took my money) sent me another notice that they would inform me when they shipped. Well, here I am three weeks later and I haven't gotten any notice.

So I went up to my local bike shop and had a cup of coffee until they opened at noon and bought a set of 28 mm Gatorskins from him. They were wire beads so I suppose they were slightly less expensive than the folding tires. and it cost an additional $20. But there they were. And as I was leaving he also gave me a couple of innertubes so that the total cost came out very close to the Amazon cost.

After getting them home I pulled the Sciroccos out and mounted the tires and I had forgotten just how easy it is to mount wire bead tires. Both tires were mounted and inflated in 10 minutes.

So now that the rain has stopped for the minute, I have my winter wheels all set up. I have my Basso shifting back to normal and I am riding tomorrow on a 36 mile ride for coffee and maybe a donut.

Looks like the only thing I need now is a new cassette for the Sciroccos. These usually turn up on craigslist every couple of days.

[Tom Kunich]

I looked over at my favorite English bike shop and they had the Centaur cassette I usually use for 1/3rd the Ebay price. They have rapid delivery for normal delivery so in two weeks the winter wheels will be complete.

Meanwhile I will go across the pass tomorrow for a cup of coffee and when I get back my Aliverti will probably be ready to pick up. That will leave me all day Friday to assemble the parts. I even have a Campy cable kit someplace if I can find it so that I don't have to use these 2nd rate Shimano wannabes.

[AMuzi]

Shimano cable sets are good quality but don't - ever - drop
a Shimano gear wire into a Campagnolo shifter. They're
bigger so they go in but only come back out with herculean
efforts. Shimano brake cable heads are longer and bind in
Ergo levers.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

I assumes that it was because the cables I got were the very cheapest possible. After all I was buying them in bulk.

The Campy lever pressure is not that high and I've never gotten them irretrievably stuck, but I will remember that. Thanks.

[Roger Merriman]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Amazon sent me an add for Gatorskins. The price was pretty good for these
> days (staggeringly expensive for just three years ago). So I bought a
> pair for winter tires. They are very hard to flat.
>
> They were folding tires, but since I have a set of Campy Sciroccos to
> mount them on, it didn't matter whether they were folding or not. That
> just makes it easier to store them. It adds nothing of value to the tire that I can tell.

It’s weight folding is by a fair margin lighter, 280g vs wired at 360g it’s
assume they would become obsolete on road bike tires as newer designs of
tires are tubeless.

Which the Gatorskins are not being about long enough that I used them and
I’ve not had a pure road bike for getting on for decade now!

>
> Well, I immediately (AFTER they took my money) sent me another notice
> that they would inform me when they shipped. Well, here I am three weeks
> later and I haven't gotten any notice.
>
> So I went up to my local bike shop and had a cup of coffee until they
> opened at noon and bought a set of 28 mm Gatorskins from him. They were
> wire beads so I suppose they were slightly less expensive than the
> folding tires. and it cost an additional $20. But there they were. And as
> I was leaving he also gave me a couple of innertubes so that the total
> cost came out very close to the Amazon cost.
>
> After getting them home I pulled the Sciroccos out and mounted the tires
> and I had forgotten just how easy it is to mount wire bead tires. Both
> tires were mounted and inflated in 10 minutes.
>
> So now that the rain has stopped for the minute, I have my winter wheels
> all set up. I have my Basso shifting back to normal and I am riding
> tomorrow on a 36 mile ride for coffee and maybe a donut.
>
> Looks like the only thing I need now is a new cassette for the Sciroccos.
> These usually turn up on craigslist every couple of days.
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

That extra weight represents 3 ounces. While racers think that every little bit helps real people prefer the easy on and easy off mounting of the metal bead.

[Roger Merriman]

Can’t say I’ve noticed wire being any easier, neither is particularly
difficult personally.

In terms of times up hills etc, well it’s fairly marginal even fairly large
weight gains don’t seem to make that much difference.

Though certainly can feel different tires at different weights though I’ve
never bought say the folding vs wired of same tire to test admittedly.

And to be honest if your after high performance Gatorskins aren’t your
weapon of choice being hard wearing and low grip (wet) and durable.

Ie training/commute type tire.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 1:44:54 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 7:46:22 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> After getting them home I pulled the Sciroccos out and mounted the tires
> >>> and I had forgotten just how easy it is to mount wire bead tires. Both
> >>> tires were mounted and inflated in 10 minutes.
> >

> > That extra weight represents 3 ounces. While racers think that every
> > little bit helps real people prefer the easy on and easy off mounting of the metal bead.
> >
> Can’t say I’ve noticed wire being any easier, neither is particularly
> difficult personally.

I'm going to take a rare opportunity to agree with Tom on something. IME wire bead tires
do tend to be easier to mount than kevlar bead folding tires. And the weight difference
is, to me, negligible.

Of course, there are tolerances on tire and rim circumference. I suppose with a rim at the
lower edge of the tolerance range and a folding tire at the higher end, installation might be
perfectly easy.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Because of tubeless tires, rims have been getting continuously deeper to prevent blow-offs. These days most rims are two-way so they are quite difficult to put a tire on. Now clincher only rims are still available and clincher road tires are a breeze to put on if you're used to using tubeless rims and really tight tires like the Continental GP5000's. I believe that you're mostly off-road and the wider rims and much wider tires are easy in any case.

[Roger Merriman]

I certainly didn’t always have off road bikes, as such. Hence my experience
with Gatorskins and their hilarious lack of wet grip! I never did seriously
struggle with tire fitting even stuff like marathon plus in 25mm form.

But I’m fairly solidly built which I’m sure helps!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I have never trusted any tire cornering grip in rain so I couldn't comment on Gatorskins traction in the wet. They always worked fine for me. Even on the local 16% downhill with a right angle turn at the bottom.

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 1:44:54 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 7:46:22 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After getting them home I pulled the Sciroccos out and mounted the tires
>>>>> and I had forgotten just how easy it is to mount wire bead tires. Both
>>>>> tires were mounted and inflated in 10 minutes.
>>>
>>> That extra weight represents 3 ounces. While racers think that every
>>> little bit helps real people prefer the easy on and easy off mounting of the metal bead.
>>>
>> Can’t say I’ve noticed wire being any easier, neither is particularly
>> difficult personally.
>
> I'm going to take a rare opportunity to agree with Tom on something. IME wire bead tires
> do tend to be easier to mount than kevlar bead folding tires. And the weight difference
> is, to me, negligible.

It’s in terms of performance a non issue for anyone even folks doing hill
climbs! Certainly that sort of weight loss anyway.

>
> Of course, there are tolerances on tire and rim circumference. I suppose with a rim at the
> lower edge of the tolerance range and a folding tire at the higher end,
> installation might be
> perfectly easy.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Don’t think back in the day I used same tires wired and folding, but
different tires on different bikes even if generally same size which in
those days was 25mm everything from Marathon plus to 4 Seasons did tend to
favour training type tires generally.

And generally posher faster stuff is folding only.

You two may be right but certainly not something I’ve noticed I do use
tires with wire beads but they are wide MTB/commute types with lightweight
sidewalls so slide on and off the rims very easily, the full suspension MTB
tires are much burlier essentially armoured though folding bead and though
easy enough to fit, do need to use correct technique’s. As they are stiff
rather than floppy.

Roger Merriman.

[Roger Merriman]

Noticeably worse than Schwalbe Lugano/Conti 4 Seasons could spin up the
rear on wet tarmac with ease, just a touch of torque. If dry well roads are
grippy so fine.

The Gravel tires not unsurprisingly grips for days dry or wet after all
it’s intended for loose surfaces so tarmac loads of grip!

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

Folding tires are more difficult to mount only the first time and that is because they were folded for a long time, not because of the kevlar bead. After initial mounting they mount as easy or as difficult as wire bead tires.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Typically I have never mounted Gatorskins more than once in their entire wear life.

[Lou Holtman]

Never had a flat or had a wheel issue that needed a removal of the tire? Remarkable.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

It is remarkable that a tire designed to be flat proof normally is? Why is that?

[Roger Merriman]

It’s not designed to be flat proof that’s more Marathon plus types which is
much heavier weight for that reason,

Gatorskins (wired) being 360g vs ride tour 540g and marathon plus at 750g.
All 28mm

Gatorskins are training road tires hence I used them even if I don’t rate
them.

I’ve punctured most tires the lanes of Surrey having flint shards and so
on, yes even Marathon plus touring which is even heavier than standard
Marathon pluses!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I used Gatorskins because it was so rare to have a flat that for awhile everyone was using them. I remember having one flat because it was so scary. I was used to never having a flat and took off on a fast downhill with a sharp cambered esses and half way through the second turn the tire exploded and I barely managed to keep it on the road to the point where the front tire actually jumped a narrow drainage ditch and stopped me against a cliff. That was one of the very rare flats I had with a Gatorskins. And then as other tires began getting improved flat protection, I changed to them for better road feel and lower rolling resistance.

But it was not in the least unusual for me to mount a Gatorskin and remove it when it was worn completely out. My riding friends that moved back to Phoenix still use Gatorskins because they never get flats with them.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, taking your advice I went back to my Strava account and entered the Garmin data. How do I give you access to it?

[Roger Merriman]

Bit like with the Marathon plus touring on my commute bike I realised that
the few punctures I had punched though, generally hawthorn shards, so 3inch
or so shard. The glass/gravel stuff just cut up the tread but no further ie
never got to the anti puncture layer.

So I moved to BigApples which are fair bit lighter and more comfortable and
as long as I avoid hawthorn tires generally last until they get too torn up
for me to be comfortable using them, so 2/3 years generally.

So mostly fit and replace never needing to remove the tire until replacing.

>
> But it was not in the least unusual for me to mount a Gatorskin and
> remove it when it was worn completely out. My riding friends that moved
> back to Phoenix still use Gatorskins because they never get flats with them.
>

Depends on the punctures and what causes them. I found most training tires
(about a decade ago now so stuff may have changed) broadly similar indeed I
found road tires much more homogeneous than MTB or gravel tires which can
differ hugely in speed/grip and grip where? Plus how robust, ie will they
shrug off flint strikes and so on.

Roger Merriman.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Lou, taking your advice I went back to my Strava account and entered the Garmin data. How do I give you access to it?

He already has access, as does the rest of the world:
<https://www.strava.com/athletes/44707301>
Looks like you uploaded 53 rides.
Fastest speed on the last 3 rides was 31.7mph.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Lou Holtman]

I can find you. If you didn’t make your account private I can see you ride. If not I have to ask your permission to follow you. I checked and saw you did a flat 53 km ride yesterday along the airport. Big brother is watching you now.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

You might want to go to Your Strava account and privacy and hide start end
of ride looks like your house is visible ie starts from same place.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lou, taking your advice I went back to my Strava account and entered the
>> Garmin data. How do I give you access to it?
>
> He already has access, as does the rest of the world:
> <https://www.strava.com/athletes/44707301>
> Looks like you uploaded 53 rides.
> Fastest speed on the last 3 rides was 31.7mph.
>

Has a few KOM’s on same bridge on the 1st September which the ride seems to
have been started on, ride has max speed of 65.9mph.

Quite a number of segments of said bridge/

Bridge <https://maps.app.goo.gl/wJtnzeFwK39UfYzv7?g_st=ic>

Strava Segments

<https://www.strava.com/segments/12408180?filter=overall>
<https://www.strava.com/segments/628985?filter=overall>
<https://www.strava.com/segments/3596761?filter=overall>

Possibly the segments proximity to the dual carriageway is throwing the GPS
tracking as the entire top 10 etc the speed for what is flat road is rather
improbable!

Unless your a national TT specialist perhaps but even so average speed for
10 mile for the very best is 30mph give or take ie 19mins ish.

Is another kom up a hill which claims to be 5% and Tom and others have
average speeds close on 20mph and rather improbable VAM figures.

<https://www.strava.com/segments/24973409?filter=overall>


Roger Merriman.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 22:20:55 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Possibly the segments proximity to the dual carriageway is throwing the GPS
>tracking as the entire top 10 etc the speed for what is flat road is rather
>improbable!

Yep. Something is wrong. My guess(tm) is that there's a wheel
diameter calibration error with the Garmin Speed Sensor 2 calibration,
or rather lack of calibration. The Speed Sensor 2 is suppose to self
adjust the wheel diameter against the GPS speed so that both the GPS
speed and the Speed Sensor 2 indicated speed are identical. Set
"wheel size" to "Auto" and see if the speeds return to sanity:

"Calibrating Your Speed Sensor"
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals-apac/webhelp/venusq/EN-SG/GUID-46334ADA-BE27-4B62-8576-5471E79ACD94-8669.html>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 17:24:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 22:20:55 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
><ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>>Possibly the segments proximity to the dual carriageway is throwing the GPS
>>tracking as the entire top 10 etc the speed for what is flat road is rather
>>improbable!

>Yep. Something is wrong. My guess(tm) is that there's a wheel
>diameter calibration error with the Garmin Speed Sensor 2 calibration,
>or rather lack of calibration. The Speed Sensor 2 is suppose to self
>adjust the wheel diameter against the GPS speed so that both the GPS
>speed and the Speed Sensor 2 indicated speed are identical. Set
>"wheel size" to "Auto" and see if the speeds return to sanity:
>
>"Calibrating Your Speed Sensor"
><https://www8.garmin.com/manuals-apac/webhelp/venusq/EN-SG/GUID-46334ADA-BE27-4B62-8576-5471E79ACD94-8669.html>

Tom-> If you are moving your Garmin Edge 830 between different
bicycles or changing wheels, the "wheel size" must be set to "auto" or
you will certainly get wrong speed and distance indications.

Also, it would be nice to know which bicycle you were riding when you
recorded your ride. Enter your bicycles under "My Gear":
<https://www.strava.com/settings/gear>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 18:03:04 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Yet another problem.

From Tom's rides, I tried exporting the data from Strava to a GPX
file, and found that all of the rides are recording only the location
and elevation like this:
<trkpt lat="37.7012410" lon="-122.1434130">
<ele>17.6</ele>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="37.7014460" lon="-122.1429390">
<ele>17.8</ele>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="37.7016450" lon="-122.1424000">
<ele>18.2</ele>
</trkpt>

From one of my walks, a proper GPX export file should include
location, elevation and time, so that speed can be calculated. It
should look like this:
<trkpt lat="37.0840720" lon="-122.0618930">
<ele>161.3</ele>
<time>2022-08-05T16:44:11Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="37.0840690" lon="-122.0619110">
<ele>161.4</ele>
<time>2022-08-05T16:44:12Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="37.0840700" lon="-122.0619140">
<ele>161.4</ele>
<time>2022-08-05T16:44:13Z</time>
</trkpt>

My guess(tm) is that there is a setting in either Strava or the Garmin
Edge 830, that limits which GPS data is recorded. There might be a
connection between this oddity and the rather high speeds recorded,
but I can't determine that from here.

In GPX 1.0, the speed was recorded. In GPX 1.1, the speed is NOT
recorded, but can be calculated using distance divided by time:
<https://www.javawa.nl/analyser_en.html>
When I run the program on Tom's GPX file, there is no speed graph.
However, my walk GPX file properly displays the speed.

Hey Tom... please fix this.

[Roger Merriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 22:20:55 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Possibly the segments proximity to the dual carriageway is throwing the GPS
>> tracking as the entire top 10 etc the speed for what is flat road is rather
>> improbable!
>
> Yep. Something is wrong. My guess(tm) is that there's a wheel
> diameter calibration error with the Garmin Speed Sensor 2 calibration,
> or rather lack of calibration. The Speed Sensor 2 is suppose to self
> adjust the wheel diameter against the GPS speed so that both the GPS
> speed and the Speed Sensor 2 indicated speed are identical. Set
> "wheel size" to "Auto" and see if the speeds return to sanity:
>
> "Calibrating Your Speed Sensor"
> <https://www8.garmin.com/manuals-apac/webhelp/venusq/EN-SG/GUID-46334ADA-BE27-4B62-8576-5471E79ACD94-8669.html>
>
>

To be fair others are close as well ie with improbable times so possibly
some funky world data in Garmin database or Strava.

Maybe disconnect the speed sensor for a while and see if that makes any
difference Tom?

I have same Garmin and ride off road in woods etc so are more challenging,
and to the best of my knowledge haven’t had spurious data.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Watching me do what? Do a 40 km ride over 2200 feet of climbing? That doesn't show the sitting around time at the coffee shop does it:? In my Garmin file it only shows average speed and then secondarily "moving speed". And those climbing statistics are complete bullshit. Imagine someone doing over half a mile with 1/10th of a mile at as much as 40% in less than 2 minutes. Why don't you tell that to Evenepoel? I'm sure he could find a spot on the team for someone like that. That's about a kilometer at 48 kph. That's fast on an 8% climb. So if you want to believe Strava go right ahead. What sort of Big Brother is that?

[Tom Kunich]

If you disconnect the speed and distance sensor of course you get lower mileage because speed over distance and speed over the ground is different. There is no actual flat ground.

[Roger Merriman]

I’m fairly sure that’s incorrect, the Garmin and indeed Strava or other
places use elevation maps ie they don’t just map the world as smooth globe!

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

I think that you misunderstand me Roger - the ground is up and down continuously. Elevation maps only show major changes in elevay9ion probably of 10 feet or more. The six inches up and down over 40 km adds up to a substantial difference in distance. I think that without the sensor my trip to Moraga measures about 23 miles. With the sensor it is 24.9

[Lou Holtman]

Wow, wow, wow. I am not accusing you from anything. I just want to let you know that I can see your rides (if I want to) because that what you asked you f*cking idiot. Now you have it; I lost my temper.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Settle down Lou, I'm not accusing you of anything. Didn't I send you a "friend" notice for access to my Strava? I'm saying that what I saw of that Strava sections was total bullshit and not even close to reality. Do you think that some 40 year old guy rode a kilometer including a supposed 15% of that over 30% grade in 2 minutes? The steepest part of that whole climb is 3 miles below that area where you leave Niles Canyon onto Palomares Rd. That may be 15% but it is only 35 meters long. Over the next 2 miles there are a couple of steep parts but nothing over 12%. The section they were showing is a mild climb and I would not be at all surprised if a good young rider could do it in 2 minutes. My 9 minutes only shows that I am merely slogging along after 3 miles of climbing.

I wonder where Strava could ever get the idea that there is a 40% section there;. If I feel like finding my camera I will record that spot where the 40% is claimed and you can get a good laugh. I think that the steepest parts there are a hump from where a new driveway was installed and it isn't 10%.

[Tom Kunich]

Also, maybe I sound irritated all the time because I have an email box full of scams. FedEx wants to deliver a package to me and I have to pay extra charges on it via credit card. Funny that the source of this is a person called "Bigdog" and not FedEx. I get the same sort of thing 10 times a day from wanting me to give them my password to my bank account to sending them money for one reason or another. I don't seem to be able to mark these things as SPAM since when I do, they are back a half hour later and none of my bank messages get through. So please excuse me if I always sound irritated. California no longer has any law enforcement and people drive past the street in front of my house at 60 mph. This after turning a 90 degree right followed by a 90 degree left.

[Roger Merriman]

I noticed on the commute a slight deviation in distance, but it’s a older
device or older technology I should say and it’s so slight to be marginal.

You can correct these things see here.

<https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/216919487-How-Distance-is-Calculated>

Either way some of your rides have poor data.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Mine is getting smarter. I forgot to turn it off after the ride and the drive home on the freeway didn't register but the distance from my driveway, through my backyard and into the computer room did. This was only 0.04 miles so who cares?