Carbon frames and modern racing bikes (for Tom Kunich)

[Old Guy]

Tom, here is a question about your opinion on carbon frames, based on an old post of your from 2007 that I found very valuable at the time. Basic question:do you still have and like your Time VXR? Here is an excerpt of the post you wrote in 2007:


I've been riding my Colnago C40, my Time VXR and my Look KG 241 without letup for the last couple of months. The C40 feels best in really rough hard fast stuff but it is a bit stiff when riding slow. The Time is almost as good as the Colnago - very difficult to tell the difference on the hard stuff - but is a whole lot smoother on slower riding and rougher roads. Whoever designed the layup for the Time is obviously a genius. When you hit a bump it goes, "Bump," and that's all. No rebound cycling. This is the only bike I've ever ridden that does that.


This post was one of the reasons that I decided to buy a Time VXS, which I have now had for about fifteen years and which I dearly love. I recently also purchased a Time ADH 01, with more modern (not the most modern) build options: disc brakes, electronic shifting, etc. In my opinion, each bike has its advantages and disadvantages, and each is wonderful in its way. Time frames come with a lifetime warranty, As I understand it, their manufacturing technique is unique among carbon bike builders, making them more precisely shaped and (maybe) stronger. Is your opinion of these bikes different than other carbon frames? I haven t seen you mention your Time recently,

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 9:24:34 PM UTC-7, Old Guy wrote:
> Tom, here is a question about your opinion on carbon frames, based on an old post of your from 2007 that I found very valuable at the time. Basic question:do you still have and like your Time VXR? Here is an excerpt of the post you wrote in 2007:
>

I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq

>
> I've been riding my Colnago C40, my Time VXR and my Look KG 241 without letup for the last couple of months. The C40 feels best in really rough hard fast stuff but it is a bit stiff when riding slow. The Time is almost as good as the Colnago - very difficult to tell the difference on the hard stuff - but is a whole lot smoother on slower riding and rougher roads. Whoever designed the layup for the Time is obviously a genius. When you hit a bump it goes, "Bump," and that's all. No rebound cycling. This is the only bike I've ever ridden that does that.
>
>
> This post was one of the reasons that I decided to buy a Time VXS, which I have now had for about fifteen years and which I dearly love. I recently also purchased a Time ADH 01, with more modern (not the most modern) build options: disc brakes, electronic shifting, etc. In my opinion, each bike has its advantages and disadvantages, and each is wonderful in its way. Time frames come with a lifetime warranty, As I understand it, their manufacturing technique is unique among carbon bike builders, making them more precisely shaped and (maybe) stronger. Is your opinion of these bikes different than other carbon frames? I haven t seen you mention your Time recently,

I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns. Time VXR was an extremely good bike when using the 28 mm tires but I couldn't ride it with 23 mm tires.

At the moment I am toying with the idea of selling off the Moser and the Fondriest to get some room to work on the bikes more easily but the sales of bikes seems to have completely died. Even high end bikes with good groups on them have been sitting on Craig's List for months. Shops are now trying to sell new parts and whole bikes on Craig's list to no avail. But it does make the sales lists so deep that no one can find anything.

Time has a Vectran component to their frames and forks. This is a man-made fiber with the same strength as carbon fiber but a very long thread length. So it engages so much resin that it would take a major failure to break that much resin at one time. So I consider the Time to be the safest resin structure.

Lou is a mechanical engineer so I was sort of surprised that he thought that resin degrades with age. It doesn't. Or I should say, so slowly it is undetectable. It degrades from exposure to UV and impacts such as the blows transmitted through the frame by pot holes and such. Carbon Fiber bikes are so labor intensive that most of them are made in Taiwan or China. They have become VERY proficient at it and probably better than anyone other than Trek who uses actual engineering to develop safe methods of making light structures from resin.

I have now obtained a Ridley Helium new in the box that I will build up. It will only use electronic groups so that is a weakness. But it is something I want to try. I owned several Ridley's before and I liked them. This one is made in China but knocking on the frame reveals no soft spots.(that only works on monologue frames) and since it is new in the box, it will have a lifespan of 5 years at least. I probably don't have a lifespan of that length left. Though I now have myself in a financial position to live over 100.

I injured my back somehow in the middle of a ride a week ago and it is healing extremely slowly though I can tell some progress. Oddly enough I have no pain while riding. So I get to take easy rides to help my back recover. I may have to go to the doctor who would prescribe physical therapy which would largely be back massage. Ibuprophen is the best pain killer at the moment. It actually works better than the opioids. I found that out the last time I hurt my back - the Doctor prescribed OxyContin. That works OK for very bad pain but not for stuff in the 6 and 7 pain level.

[Lou Holtman]

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:45:51 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 9:24:34 PM UTC-7, Old Guy wrote:

> Lou is a mechanical engineer so I was sort of surprised that he thought that resin degrades with age. It doesn't. Or I should say, so slowly it is undetectable.

Huhh??. I never said that. It was actually you that tried to convince us that CF frames should be discarded after two years because they were not safe to ride anymore because of the degradation of the resin. Get your act together. Original poster should ask someone else about CF frames because you change your mind every month about basically everything.


Lou.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, do you realize that a frame sitting around in a box in a warehouse is not the same as a frame exposed to UV and stresses? Your inference was that they were the same.

[Tom Kunich]

Or, looking back, perhaps that was a whimsical on your part and I misread it.

[Old Guy]

On Thu Aug 10 07:45:48 2023 Tom Kunich wrote:

> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq
> >
>

> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns. Time VXR was an extremely good bike when using the 28 mm tires but I couldn't ride it with 23 mm tires.

>
>

Tom, probably you meant the opposite of what you wrote. I imagine you rode your VXR with 23 mm tires but could not ride it with 28. I rode my VXS with 23's for many years, but swiitched to 25's just a few years back, when I upgraded it to Campy 12-speed. The ADH has 28 mm tires, which probably accounts for a good deal of the difference between the feel of the two bikes. I think it also has a slightly more relaxed geometry (eg longer head tube). Again, both bikes are great.

[Tom Kunich]

No, I meant what I said. With high pressure 23 mm tires on the VXR, the frame was so stiff that it would pound my butt up into my throat. If I rode it two days in a row, I couldn't ride for a week. Changing over to 28 mm tires at 80 psi and the bike rode and handled perfectly.

At that time I was just recovering from my concussion and I don't think that I had ridden for a year. So perhaps your experience was different.

[Lou Holtman]

Frame stiffness is independent of tires used. You could have lowered the tire pressure of the 23 mm tires. Lot of people think they have to run 23 mm at 8 bar. I run them sometimes at 6.5 bar rear and 6 front if I want a more comfortable ride.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

And at the time I was 95 kg and 1.7 meters

[Old Guy]

> No, I meant what I said. With high pressure 23 mm tires on the VXR, the frame was so stiff that it would pound my butt up into my throat. If I rode it two days in a row, I couldn't ride for a week. Changing over to 28 mm tires at 80 psi and the bike rode and handled perfectly.
>
> At that time I was just recovering from my concussion and I don't think that I had ridden for a year. So perhaps your experience was different.

Interesting.. I do not think my VXS will take 28 mm tires, and I imagined that the VXR would be the same.
I think I rode 100 lb with the VXS with 23's. Now 90 with 25's and 70 on the ADH with 28's. I only
weigh 125 pounds.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:45:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq

(...)

>I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns.

Yet, you just bought a (used??) Ridley Helium, which I believe uses a
carbon fiber frame:
<https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ridley-helium-frame>
"The Helium tips the scales at just over 1000 grams, which is less
than that of Ridley's pave-flagship, the Excalibur. This was
accomplished through its use of superior grades of carbon fiber."

Aug 7, 2023:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/z7Bmp86kAgAJ>
"Since I stumbled across a Ridley Helium for very close to nothing I
bought it."


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 21:45:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:45:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq
>(...)
>>I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns.
>
>Yet, you just bought a (used??) Ridley Helium, which I believe uses a
>carbon fiber frame:
><https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ridley-helium-frame>
>"The Helium tips the scales at just over 1000 grams, which is less
>than that of Ridley's pave-flagship, the Excalibur. This was
>accomplished through its use of superior grades of carbon fiber."
>
>Aug 7, 2023:
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/z7Bmp86kAgAJ>
>"Since I stumbled across a Ridley Helium for very close to nothing I
>bought it."

But Jeff, he bought the Ridley 3 days ago. He's probably forgotten he
had it :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 12:45:44 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:45:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq
> (...)
> >I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns.
> Yet, you just bought a (used??) Ridley Helium, which I believe uses a
> carbon fiber frame:
> <https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ridley-helium-frame>
> "The Helium tips the scales at just over 1000 grams, which is less
> than that of Ridley's pave-flagship, the Excalibur. This was
> accomplished through its use of superior grades of carbon fiber."
>
> Aug 7, 2023:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/z7Bmp86kAgAJ>
> "Since I stumbled across a Ridley Helium for very close to nothing I
> bought it."

This is what he bought:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255674322671

The frame and fork retail for $2400. This was on sale for $200 as new.....makes you wonder....

[Lou Holtman]

Like I said a frame in that category offered without a fork I won’t trust.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 07:25:21 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 4:00:52?PM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

Then don’t use one, that is OK with me. ;)

[Lou Holtman]

I won’t, but up to now Tom is warning everyone about the dangers of light CF frames and forks and yet he buys a suspicious light CF frame imo. I find that remarkable.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 07:00:49 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The ad says Condition: New. The ad also says "3 available 3 sold".
Where did the seller get 6 identical "new" frames? My guess(tm) is
from the factory, where they were either stolen, rejected upon
incoming inspection (QC), or disassembled for parts (chop shop) from
stolen bicycles. Nothing recent found that involved more than 6
bicycles:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=Ridley+Helium+theft>

Having the frame inspected for about $200 might be a good investment.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+fiber+bicycle+inspection>
If there are minor cracks, it might also be worth having them
repaired.

I've been watching various YouTube videos on CF frame repair. Thermal
imaging inspection looks like it could catch most failures. This
video was interesting because of the large number of frames hanging on
the wall and in process of being repaired. Also, the near clean room
environment and safety equipment:
"Can You Repair A Carbon Fiber Bike?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7e004bfHyY> (17:55)

More:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=carbon+fiber+bicycle+repair>

[Tom Kunich]

I weigh presently 200 lbs and the completed bike another 20 or so. I ran 130 psi in the 23's. There was just barely enough room for the 28's but they did work.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, modern frame geometry are so close to each other (they are all made in the SAME setups in Taiwan!) that the difference in rake and trail is insignificant. Why do you think that there are so damn many carbon fiber forks on the market? I replaced the stock carbon fiber fork on my Tommasini with an aluminum Pinarello fork and it handles better.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

They might have been made available as replacement frames, which would explain the lack of a fork, but doesn't explain the $200 price tag. Maybe they were acquired through some sort of bankruptcy proceeding from a distributor that folded, or purchased at an auction......that seller seems pretty well established and reputable, 100% Positive feedback, 56K Items sold.

[AMuzi]

On 8/11/2023 9:00 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

First impression would be damaged or stolen...

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:27:54 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/11/2023 9:00 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 12:45:44 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:45:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq
>>> (...)
>>>> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns.
>>> Yet, you just bought a (used??) Ridley Helium, which I believe uses a
>>> carbon fiber frame:
>>> <https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ridley-helium-frame>
>>> "The Helium tips the scales at just over 1000 grams, which is less
>>> than that of Ridley's pave-flagship, the Excalibur. This was
>>> accomplished through its use of superior grades of carbon fiber."
>>>
>>> Aug 7, 2023:
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/z7Bmp86kAgAJ>
>>> "Since I stumbled across a Ridley Helium for very close to nothing I
>>> bought it."
>>
>> This is what he bought:
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255674322671
>>
>> The frame and fork retail for $2400. This was on sale for $200 as new.....makes you wonder....
>>
>
>First impression would be damaged or stolen...

+1

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 08:31:09 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I thought about that but rejected it because every manufacturer that
I've worked for has made it their policy to not sell, donate or
discount defective parts or products. The liability risks are huge
because the court will assume that the manufacturer knew that the
parts or products were defective, and therefore liable for any
problems that the parts or products might create. The few dollars
that can be recovered from the sale will be completely wiped by the
dollars lost in the legal proceedings. Obtaining the parts for sale
as a result of a bankruptcy is possible, but unlikely. I don't see
dealers ordering 6 new frames from the factory, worth a total of
$12,000, which probably cost $6,000 (assuming a 100% markup), and then
selling them for 20% of the cost. Also, I couldn't find a Ridley
Dealer in Santa Ana, California. The 100% plosive feedback and 56,000
items sold is rather unusual and certainly not an indication that
something is wrong with the product. I don't know hot to interpret
that because everything else rings alarm bells.

Tom just answered a previous question about his weight:
(Aug 11, 2023)

"I weigh presently 200 lbs and the completed bike another 20 or so."

<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/os7AghdvUBA/m/u1auT8rPAwAJ>

The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg (209lbs).
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
"Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
of 95kg."

200 lbs (90.7 kg) seems too close to the 209 lb (95 kg) rider weight
limit. I don't know how much of a safety factor Ridley has designed
into their frames, but a 0.957 failure index is too close for comfort.

"Development of a Lightweight, Composite Carbon Fiber Street Racing
Bicycle Frame"
<https://www.altair.com.es/customer-story/Duratec/development-of-lightweight-carbon-fiber-street-racing-bicycle-frame>
"The limit value for the Failure Index was set to 0.7, which includes
a certain safety factor (when Failure Index equals to 1, the composite
fails)."

[John B.]

Well... just what dies "new" mean? New in the box with the guarantee?
Or Well, it certainly looks good, no dings or dents?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 07:00:49 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I wonder what a legitimate bike shop would pay for a frame like that
with sufficient documentation to demonstrate that it really is a "new"
frame and the seller has a legal right to sell it?
I'm guessing more then $200 :-)


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Andrew, you are supposed to know the business. Why is a Bontrager integrated handlebar selling for $400 while I can buy the SAME THING on Ebay without the Bontrager name on it (even the same triple X) for $70? Why are carbon wheels that had the name Campagnolo on them and selling for $1,500 selling under no name for $400?

Ridley made a major change in their design to the more popular aero and the Heliums that were still in the Chinese warehouse became worthless with Ridley not buying them. Why on Earth would you not understand this instantly?

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 11:28:01 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/11/2023 9:00 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 12:45:44 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:45:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq
>>>> (...)
>>>>> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns.
>>>> Yet, you just bought a (used??) Ridley Helium, which I believe uses a
>>>> carbon fiber frame:
>>>> <https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ridley-helium-frame>
>>>> "The Helium tips the scales at just over 1000 grams, which is less
>>>> than that of Ridley's pave-flagship, the Excalibur. This was
>>>> accomplished through its use of superior grades of carbon fiber."
>>>>
>>>> Aug 7, 2023:
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/z7Bmp86kAgAJ>
>>>> "Since I stumbled across a Ridley Helium for very close to nothing I
>>>> bought it."
>>>
>>> This is what he bought:
>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255674322671
>>>
>>> The frame and fork retail for $2400. This was on sale for $200 as new.....makes you wonder....
>>>
>> First impression would be damaged or stolen...
>>

> Andrew, you are supposed to know the business. Why is a Bontrager integrated handlebar selling for $400 while I can buy the SAME THING on Ebay without the Bontrager name on it (even the same triple X) for $70? Why are carbon wheels that had the name Campagnolo on them and selling for $1,500 selling under no name for $400?
>
> Ridley made a major change in their design to the more popular aero and the Heliums that were still in the Chinese warehouse became worthless with Ridley not buying them. Why on Earth would you not understand this instantly?
>

I don't know and you don't either.

My comments were, 'first impression' and I think they are
reasonable conjectures.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:15:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Ridley made a major change in their design to the more popular aero and the Heliums that were still in the Chinese warehouse became worthless with Ridley not buying them. Why on Earth would you not understand this instantly?

Worthless? Most manufacturers retain older parts, which could later
be sold for repair parts. Sometimes, they'll sell older parts in bulk
to jobbers, who resell them on eBay, Amazon or an online web store.
Manufacturers don't do well handling individual parts or dealing
directly with the public. They are glad to pass the responsibility to
a parts jobber. This might be such a situation except for one minor
problem. Manufacturers usually sell in much larger lots (auction
quantities), not 6 handlebar increments.

If the Chinese manufacturer wanted to get rid of the older model
handlebars, the obvious customer would have been Ridley. I can only
guess(tm) what the eBay vendor might have paid for them, but I'm sure
it was low enough that Ridley would have bought them first. Since
they didn't, it's possible that there might have been something wrong
with them or were QC rejects, that Ridley wouldn't want at any price.

At least you might be correct about the design change, except we don't
know if you bought the old design or the new design:
"Ridley launches cut-price versions of its Noah Disc and Helium Disc"
(Feb 24, 2022)
<https://road.cc/content/tech-news/ridley-launches-cut-price-versions-noah-and-helium-290543>
"The bikes get the same geometry and frame features as the World Tour
level machines but use a different carbon layup that also leads to a
slight increase in weight"

2 claims: 1 possibly correct, 1 unknown.

[Lou Holtman]

It is unlikely that a Chinese manufacturer does make a bunch of frames and hopes Ridley might buy them. They produce on order is my experience. We design the part review it with the manufacturer and they make the mold and produce the number we ask. The mold is our property.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Here we go again. The man that has never actually worked a real job is telling us all about real jobs.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, that's not the way it works. The Chinese factory is pumping frames out and Ridley is buying them Suddenly Ridley has a bunch of excess stock because people started buying their aero version. The cancel their orders for more frames and the Chinese factory is stuck with excess stock. They don't have any storage room because they are building frames for 5 other companies and they need the room. They TRIED to sell them for $300 and they weren't moving but at $200 they probably cleaned out their excess stock. This is normal business practice. There are some integrated handlebars that are selling for $900 and they are 200 grams lighter than the ones selling for $65.

The sort of consulting work I did I had to be completely aware of marketing practices and there is nothing unusual about this. How in the hell do you think that they can sell an unbranded bike that weighs the same as a Specialized Tarmac for 1/10th the price?

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

That's not how it works.
No modern contract manufacturer makes product without an
order.

[Lou Holtman]

Like I said I deal with Chinese manufacturers and it is exactly how it works. You design, review and then order the numbers you need. The price is based on that number. Do you really thing that a Chinese manufacturer just pop out Ridley labeled frames and hoping Ridley buys them all. Come on. Chinese are very good at counterfeiting. Keep that in mind.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Exactly.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

No manufacturer is going to set a contract for a given number of articles. Do you suppose that if an article turns out to be very popular they are going to change their contract in mid stream? Or order spares separately? They contract for a minimum number PLUS until notice. And the minimum number has to be above the profit margin for making the tooling. For instance - the Pinarello Opera forks are STILL MADE on the SAME TOOLING. If you can find the people who have the tooling. https://www.ebay.com/itm/303895329626?hash=item46c192bb5a:g:7kMAAOSwhcJhjztx&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8Oqq5xUUmbIyHxofCaw8PdPCQtgZ9ut2KI%2FXad8OYrIwjkOyUnA1XtHyfp7fZ8vJlKwffcINoiR%2FAZ21NLi6dxT8gG6dbzRgHF2wm%2FVHMjciECyJ6VbQLB7vlC6Xp%2FdILhCg7duRgg7a%2B9acH89kXGFEg2POrmKPHALZfX32wFXIEPQ0cWckU8nfB%2BqDNainIopRqWLUjpmTKhASF9gEtUplCl4b7rOoOMiwHChduVBxhSWVfpK2BOC5I1JNQ2RtIiIDPCjt5UpgP4YRnhyjlDUZ6ONYRh1TDAV3XiX4P9nDvKU6XtioGrBKS5N7Z2zT0g%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bqu8C9Yg

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, what are you having Chinese manufacturers make - surely not bicycles. You worked in a real industry didn't you?

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't know about the bike industry practices, but in most other industries,
"Just In Time" is the favored strategy. Production of upstream components
is timed to arrive for assembly just before they're needed. It requires a reliable
transportation network, but it greatly reduces inventory expenses.

I really doubt any bike manufacturer does the opposite and produces dozens
of extra and very expensive bike frames just in case someone might want to
buy them.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 15:47:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

I've lived in Asia for more then half my life. My first wife was
Japanese and my second was of Chinese decent, so while I don't claim
to be an expert I do have some experience in Asia, and just as Mr Muzi
states. Chinese or any other Asians are not going to make zillions of
anything unless they have an established market.

Now having said that I do know of several short run, on spec, items
that were made solely to test the market. One case was a chap that had
manufactured some "one transistor" pocket radios (at least that what
he called them). He sent a number on speculation to a department store
in San Francisco telling the store that he could supply any number for
$1.00 each.

And, certainly there are copies of top line items made, usually of
poor quality, and sold for far cheaper prices then the "real" items.
And, even for quality products, prices here in Asia, are usually far
cheaper then what "you" would pay in the U.S. (and probably Europe).
I just checked and white rice in Bangkok is 50 baht a kg. At current
exchange rates that is $1.42. The San Francisco price is $7.00 :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 11:55:46 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

And, I would guess, your company also specifies the quality assurance
inspections and inspections required to ensure that the product meets
your standards.... which it is unlikely that the "back yard"
manufacturer bothers with.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 11:55:46 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>It is unlikely that a Chinese manufacturer does make a bunch of frames and hopes Ridley might buy them. They produce on order is my experience. We design the part review it with the manufacturer and they make the mold and produce the number we ask. The mold is our property.
>
>Lou

My realities are somewhat different. Unfortunately, none of my past
experience involves volume bicycle manufacturing. In my father's
lingerie business, we sold almost exclusively to large department
stores. When a large number of garments was produced, we always made
extras to take care of the inevitable losses and shrinkage in the
delivery system. Shipping 1000 garments to a store's distribution
warehouse usually involved about 5 to 10% shrinkage mostly due to
theft. One might expect the stores to order 10% more than needed.
Instead, they just counted what arrived and claimed that my father's
factory didn't ship the correct number. We were forced to make up the
loss for zero profit or lose the customer.

Some department store would order from inventory at the last possible
moment to reduce warehouse requirements. We sent them an inventory
list, and they would decide what they wanted. At the time, having an
inventory was a bad thing because of California's former inventory
tax. Department stores also had the bad habit of buying exclusively
from inventory, in very large quantities and then either switch to
ordering well in advance or simply stop ordering. The purpose was to
destroy the vendors financial planning and eventually force the sale
of the business.

In the marine radio business, we were the manufacturer. There was no
way that we could accurately predict the exact number of radios
needed. Therefore, we needed to make spares to deal with any
unexpected orders. Manufacturing was setup to work most efficiently
in lots of 25 radios. At any time, we had no more than 25 of any
product in stock. Determining lot sizes was easier for commercial and
government orders, which were determined well in advance. We
typically produced at least 25 radios in advance mostly to deal with
any units that would fail post production QA inspection, so that we
could ship in exactly 25 unit lots and not need to wait until the
failed radios would be repaired or remanufactured. Inserting failed
radios back into the production line was a great way to bring
everything to a grinding halt.

In the telecom radio business we had two types of radios. Those that
were full of options and assembled to order and those that were all
the same. The former were required to be very reliable, which forced
to have the manufacturer maintain an inventory of spare modules and
even entire radios, when someone accidentally dropped the crate off
the loading dock. The latter were treated as commodity items but
which needed to be replaced quickly should there be any failures. I
don't recall the exact number of spare radios or modules, but my guess
is about 10% of the previous years shipments.

In a consumer electronics business, the product was treated like a
disposable commodity, where it was cheaper to replace a failed product
than to repair it. Therefore, there was little inventory of the
current product and no parts available. Warranty repairs of older
products were taken from current production giving the customer an
instant upgrade to the latest version. It was not unusual to have 2
or more future product revisions in the design queue. If someone
complained, they were told to wait for the next revision to hit
manufacturing.

In a different consumer electronics business, the manufacturer
outsourced their assembly to China. Because of the lack of component
tracking, the Chinese contract manufacturer built a substantial number
of "spare" PC boards. When the contract was complete and not renewed,
the manufacturer dumped all the spare, untested and failed in test
boards into the gray market. Since both the real product and the
counterfeit products were made on the same production line, there were
impossible to distinguish. In the hands of customers, the high
failure rate of these boards effectively ruined the reputation of the
manufacturer.

There are other production methods, which vary by product and company.
One size does not fit every product or company. Methods suitable for
a small craft shop is not going to work for Chinese style product
volumes. Any of the aforementioned could have been the source of the
"new" bicycle handlebars Tom found on eBay. Some might be good
quality, while others, not so good quality. As I suggested, Tom
should have them inspected before installing and riding.

[Lou Holtman]

We are talking about a CF bicycle frame. They are made to spec of the customer in this case Ridley. If I am not mistaken Ridley does their own paint jobs and putting on the decals. In that case they order a raw CF frames.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 22:38:01 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>We are talking about a CF bicycle frame. They are made to spec of the customer in this case Ridley. If I am not mistaken Ridley does their own paint jobs and putting on the decals. In that case they order a raw CF frames.

Thanks. I didn't know that they did their own paint and decals. If
that's true, then the handlebars on eBay likely came from Ridley, not
from a China contractor. Why Ridley would sell finished handlebars to
someone who resells them on eBay, when they could have sold them for
repair parts for their 1.5 year older[1] models is beyond my fertile
imagination.

Incidentally, these comments about a change in the process seems to
suggest a change of supplier. However, I can't determine if the
handlebars are made by the same supplier as the frame parts.

"Ridley launches cut-price versions of its Noah Disc and Helium Disc"
(Feb 24, 2022)
<https://road.cc/content/tech-news/ridley-launches-cut-price-versions-noah-and-helium-290543>
"The bikes get the same geometry and frame features as the World Tour
level machines but use a different carbon layup that also leads to a
slight increase in weight"

(...)
"Ridley also says that one of the key aims was to make the Essential
range indistinguishable from the high-end models..."

[1] based on the Feb 24, 2022 date of the road.cc article.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 23:08:04 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 22:38:01 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
><lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>We are talking about a CF bicycle frame. They are made to spec of the customer in this case Ridley. If I am not mistaken Ridley does their own paint jobs and putting on the decals. In that case they order a raw CF frames.
>
>Thanks. I didn't know that they did their own paint and decals. If
>that's true, then the handlebars on eBay likely came from Ridley, not
>from a China contractor. Why Ridley would sell finished handlebars to
>someone who resells them on eBay, when they could have sold them for
>repair parts for their 1.5 year older[1] models is beyond my fertile
>imagination.

After posting my latest guess, I took a closer look at some Ridley
Helium handlebar photos:
<https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/6c2a2441.jpg>
<https://bikerumor.com/ridley-launches-noah-and-helium-essential-series/>
I'm not certain, but there doesn't seem to be any paint on the
handlebars. Also, one silk screen printed name, which is very easy to
fake and apply. The rest of the handlebars are wrapped with bar tape.

Just another guess, but perhaps the handlebar vendor is also selling
un-branded handlebars to other bicycle makers? If so, the eBay
handlebars could have come from a multitude of possible sources.

[Lou Holtman]

Ridley factory tour

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=czwZHeUOtAU&pp=ygUOcmlkbGV5IGZhY3Rvcnk%3D

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 23:08:04 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 22:38:01 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
><lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>We are talking about a CF bicycle frame. They are made to spec of the customer in this case Ridley. If I am not mistaken Ridley does their own paint jobs and putting on the decals. In that case they order a raw CF frames.
>
>Thanks. I didn't know that they did their own paint and decals. If
>that's true, then the handlebars on eBay likely came from Ridley, not
>from a China contractor. Why Ridley would sell finished handlebars to
>someone who resells them on eBay, when they could have sold them for
>repair parts for their 1.5 year older[1] models is beyond my fertile
>imagination.

Oops. No brain tonight. I was looking at handlebars and accidentally
switched my comments to handlebars instead of frames. Please ignore
my latest bad guess(tm). Ridley frames are painted and have decals,
while the handlebars do not. My apologies for the confusion.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 23:35:34 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 8:08:19?AM UTC+2, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 22:38:01 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >We are talking about a CF bicycle frame. They are made to spec of the customer in this case Ridley. If I am not mistaken Ridley does their own paint jobs and putting on the decals. In that case they order a raw CF frames.
>> Thanks. I didn't know that they did their own paint and decals. If
>> that's true, then the handlebars on eBay likely came from Ridley, not
>> from a China contractor. Why Ridley would sell finished handlebars to
>> someone who resells them on eBay, when they could have sold them for
>> repair parts for their 1.5 year older[1] models is beyond my fertile
>> imagination.

>> (...)

Again, sorry about me confusing the Ridley frame with the handlebars.

>Ridley factory tour
>https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=czwZHeUOtAU&pp=ygUOcmlkbGV5IGZhY3Rvcnk%3D
>Lou

Interesting video. Thanks.

So, the frame is provided by the vendor in China along with the fork
both unpainted and no decals. Therefore, the painted eBay frames with
decals probably came from the Ridley factory, not from the Chinese
frame vendor.

That suggests yet another possibility and associated guess(tm). Where
are the 6 fork that went with the 6 eBay frames? It might be that it
was too difficult or expensive to obtain matching forks from the
factory, possibly because the frames were made by the older process
from a previous CF vendor. I guess we'll find out when Tom goes
shopping for a fork.

Also, I noticed that the bicycle owner and workers who were applying
the decals and painting were handling the frame without wearing
gloves. I would think that could create a problem if any oil was
transferred to the bicycle between clear coats.

[Sir Ridesalot]

i wonder how you adjust the reach on such a handlebar if the reach is too long for you? It looks as though you'd have to buy and entirely new integrated handlebar.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 02:11:43 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

From looking at the pictures there seems to be only a height
adjustment
https://www.ridley-bikes.com/en_CR/experience/technologies
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

You have to figure out the reach beforehand because you can't adjust the reach with an integrated handlebar.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 9:27:43 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 14:35:34 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>
> >On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 13:27:54 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >>On 8/11/2023 9:00 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

> >>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 12:45:44 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> >>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:45:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes simply because I don't have the room for more than the 6 bikes I oq
> >>>> (...)
> >>>>> I no longer have any carbon fiber bikes because I was experimenting with steel and aluminum and didn't have the space for the 6 bikes I presently own and the two that my wife owns.
> >>>> Yet, you just bought a (used??) Ridley Helium, which I believe uses a
> >>>> carbon fiber frame:
> >>>> <https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ridley-helium-frame>
> >>>> "The Helium tips the scales at just over 1000 grams, which is less
> >>>> than that of Ridley's pave-flagship, the Excalibur. This was
> >>>> accomplished through its use of superior grades of carbon fiber."
> >>>>
> >>>> Aug 7, 2023:
> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/z7Bmp86kAgAJ>
> >>>> "Since I stumbled across a Ridley Helium for very close to nothing I
> >>>> bought it."
> >>>
> >>> This is what he bought:
> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255674322671
> >>>
> >>> The frame and fork retail for $2400. This was on sale for $200 as new.....makes you wonder....
> >>>
> >>
> >>First impression would be damaged or stolen...
> >

> >+1
> Well... just what dies "new" mean? New in the box with the guarantee?

Ebay rules state New means original packaging, possible opened but never used, (Sometimes abbreviated as NIB for New In Box) , maybe not with a guarantee.

> Or Well, it certainly looks good, no dings or dents?

That would be "like new", not New.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Exactly the same here.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Complete bullshit. There, may be companies that are buying a generic frame from a manufacturer, but Ridley isn't one of them. Ridley designs a frame and have a mass producer build it. Ridley owns the IP and the molds- like all higher end frame companies -.

> Suddenly Ridley has a bunch of excess stock because people started buying their aero version. The cancel their orders for more frames and the Chinese factory is stuck with excess stock.
> They don't have any storage room because they are building frames for 5 other companies and they need the room. They TRIED to sell them for $300 and they weren't moving but at $200 they probably cleaned out their excess stock. This is normal business practice.

Gawd - You've never worked for a company that built a product. that isn't even close to how it works.

> There are some integrated handlebars that are selling for $900 and they are 200 grams lighter than the ones selling for $65.
>
> The sort of consulting work I did I had to be completely aware of marketing practices and there is nothing unusual about this.

1) this isn't a marketing issue, you idiot, it's manufacturing/supply chain.
2) You've never worked in a position where you had to be aware of marketing practices, let alone manufacturing/supply chain.

> How in the hell do you think that they can sell an unbranded bike that weighs the same as a Specialized Tarmac for 1/10th the price?

Because it's isn't a Specialized Tarmac, they copy the design and sell until they get an infringement case against them.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yes, they do. It happens all the time, every day. We order parts from our suppliers as needed, with a few JIT chains.

> Do you suppose that if an article turns out to be very popular they are going to change their contract in mid stream? Or order spares separately? They contract for a minimum number PLUS until notice.

If sales are good they place another order. If they predict continued sales over the long-term they place a blanket order.

> And the minimum number has to be above the profit margin for making the tooling. For instance - the Pinarello Opera forks are STILL MADE on the SAME TOOLING.

The contract manufacturer builds their profit into the order structure. You want 10 pieces? The cost of the tooling is going to make them incredibly expensive. You want 1000 per month for the next 3 years? that drives cost way down. They do what ever you, you just have to pay for it.

You really need to stop talking, you have no fucking clue how this works.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

That's correct.

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 7:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:47:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

> No manufacturer is going to set a contract for a given number of articles. Do you suppose that if an article turns out to be very popular they are going to change their contract in mid stream? Or order spares separately? They contract for a minimum number PLUS until notice. And the minimum number has to be above the profit margin for making the tooling. For instance - the Pinarello Opera forks are STILL MADE on the SAME TOOLING. If you can find the people who have the tooling. https://www.ebay.com/itm/303895329626?hash=item46c192bb5a:g:7kMAAOSwhcJhjztx&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8Oqq5xUUmbIyHxofCaw8PdPCQtgZ9ut2KI%2FXad8OYrIwjkOyUnA1XtHyfp7fZ8vJlKwffcINoiR%2FAZ21NLi6dxT8gG6dbzRgHF2wm%2FVHMjciECyJ6VbQLB7vlC6Xp%2FdILhCg7duRgg7a%2B9acH89kXGFEg2POrmKPHALZfX32wFXIEPQ0cWckU8nfB%2BqDNainIopRqWLUjpmTKhASF9gEtUplCl4b7rOoOMiwHChduVBxhSWVfpK2BOC5I1JNQ2RtIiIDPCjt5UpgP4YRnhyjlDUZ6ONYRh1TDAV3XiX4P9nDvKU6XtioGrBKS5N7Z2zT0g%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bqu8C9Yg
>

My experience in dealing with small manufacturers for our
own design products for 40 years is at odds with your
description.

in re fork example: Even if I own the tool I still have to
contract a production run and the price is variable by
volume, packaging requirements and by delivery date('rush'
costs more).

[AMuzi]

On 8/13/2023 8:51 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:03:10 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:47:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

Exactly right.
Viewed from the manufacturer's position, it can be no other way.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank - you're speaking of a manufacturing practice to prevent needing expensive storage space like we used to have - huge dockside warehouses. This is NOT contractual financial practice. Can you even begin to suggest which bike is going to sell in what numbers and for how long?

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, who owned and operated the radio business? I can see some large gaps in the ,manufacturing end such as not designing the PC boards for easy repairs so that you're not throwing entire radios away. But what happened to that business? There continues to be a market for marine band radios that is large. Because of the lockdown, the yachting business is so far down that it is essentially non-existent at the moment but I expect that a change in government which is probably going to be Trump, DeSantis or RFK Jr. will cause a rather rapid change in the direction of the economy.

[Tom Kunich]

Bicycle frames are a fad item and it is impossible to guess how many will sell and for how long. The slightest change in the fad completely destroys the worth of the older item and retooling is necessary for the new ones. With steel frames this was not the case and Colnago mostly set themselves apart with the paint job. The other manufacturers simply couldn't understand why this made such a difference in sales and price. This carries through until today. Just look at the price of old steel Colnagoes vs a Basso which is a better bike.

[Tom Kunich]

All that is nice enough but what worth do you believe the rim brake Helium was worth? When I contacted Ridley to get a fork made for the frame they referred me to the US distributor that said that they couldn't even get a rim brake fork.

[Tom Kunich]

You have to use an integrated bar specifically to fit you. It's the same if you have a different fit with a stem. Remember I said that there was no way that you could get a carbon bar NOT to rotate under load and certain people who had never used carbon bars said that I hadn't any idea what I was talking about? Integrated bars and stem were designed specifically to eliminate that problem. Because of that rotation problem handlebars went from 1 inch to 1 1/8th inch to 31.8 mm and finally 36 mm before giving up and using integrated bars. Until you've hit a bump and had the handlebars rotate down 30 degrees or more you don't know what "startle" means.

[Tom Kunich]

Flunky, will you please cease with your endless bullshit about matters you haven't any idea about? exactly WHAT are you making with which you OWN the tooling?

I don't know what Lou's company was making and it is possible that they contractually claim rights to the tooling but they sure as hell aren't going to ship molds from China to the Netherlands in the off chance that it becomes cheaper to make their product in Holland. Do you have any idea how much training it takes to manufacture carbon fiber components? It took Taiwan over 10 years to start making acceptably reliable components.

What is your company making that uses carbon fiber?

[Tom Kunich]

Andrew, I was a professional management consultant - remember? Companies that ignored my advice failed rapidly. Please don't pretend to understand manufacturing of small batch fad items. Flunky or Lou who obviously work (or worked) at companies with a utilitarian product with steady stream manufacturing are entirely different. This is not the case with bicycles, What worth is a rim brake frameset now? The4 only Ridley FORKS available for the frameset were flat mount disc brake forks with closed end 12 mm axles.

This is a different world than you know. Why would Ridley WANT any tooling designed to manufacture a frame or fork no longer being bought? Do you honestly believe that there is any real difference between the $2.500 Ridley frame and the $280 BXT? Do you think that the Chinese legal system would in any way protect their manufacturers for the errors they could commit?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224708399619?hash=item3451aa1203:g:i44AAOSwfophnghE&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0JFRBm1bV%2FV%2FQBW1RHHV0kbO9p5Rlo2oIBVIBpBP6fBUky6ANt0urhAkH3%2BJJFwzhl4Tl8MqJ1VpYr5bEuyVAdugOelm53LQQTJ8khVp5vKdilSC6ozbz1lo2qXIFUVVrCZr4cjo67KiOK%2BDYUDzylaaanO4h5UsFi5PO41CWbhX7bG2n9jS8HfQta8ltd86zGtEPeCAawovRXbaQ3dflo6ZXop47ZiZReeoDrJBss92%2FhW3W7SygRaMlc%2Bs1Ne0sdZ5auWztin4TbE3bBERwjM%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7i54Pi9Yg

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 02:11:43 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:26:20?a.m. UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> <https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/6c2a2441.jpg>
>> <https://bikerumor.com/ridley-launches-noah-and-helium-essential-series/>

>i wonder how you adjust the reach on such a handlebar if the reach is too long for you? It looks as though you'd have to buy and entirely new integrated handlebar.
>Cheers

All of the integrated bar-stem handlebars I've seen advertised do not
have an adjustable reach. I can see ways in which a telescoping stem
could be designed, but then it wouldn't be integrated.

Looking at what is available, I can't find any examples:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=adjustable+integrated+carbon+fiber+handlebars&tbm=isch>

I also tried patents:
<https://patents.google.com/?q=%28integrated+carbon+fiber+handlebars%29>
I skimmed the drawings in the first 50 patents, but found nothing
relevent.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 07:56:12 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff, who owned and operated the radio business?

I didn't write that. See my resume for my involvement in the 2-way
and marine radio businesses:
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-liebermann-151823/details/experience/>

>I can see some large gaps in the ,manufacturing end such as not designing the PC boards for easy repairs so that you're not throwing entire radios away.

Products are rarely designed for easy repair. Just ask Apple about
how that works with their products. Smaller manufacturers are
different because they have to offer something to the customers that
the larger manufacturers either done, or refuse to supply. In most
cases, it's a superior and longer warranty. At Intech, the commercial
marine radios all carried a lifetime warranty. If we hadn't offered a
warranty, the customers would have gone elsewhere. The other products
had different warranty lives, but always longer than what the
competition was offering. Fixing 10 year old radios was a PITA, but
sometimes necessary. We kept a "bone yard" of old radios and PCB's
for the purpose.

>But what happened to that business? There continues to be a
>market for marine band radios that is large. Because of the
>lockdown, the yachting business is so far down that it is

>essentially non-existent at the moment...

Really? That might be the case for yachting because of increasing
prices.
<https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_producer_price_index_boat_dealers_primary_services>
(click on 10 year)

Global luxury yacht sales:
<https://www.statista.com/statistics/1255274/global-luxury-yacht-market-size-forecast/>

However, the pandemic and recession hasn't affected new orders for
commercial boats much:
<https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_ships_and_boats_new_orders>
(Click on 10 year).

Got any sources that show a decline in the yachting business?

>but I expect that a change in government...

Politicized rubbish deleted.

[Lou Holtman]

Never had a handlebar rotate and I use a CF handlebar on my climbing bike for 9 years now. The reason for integrated handlebars is their aero advantage. Please stop this nonsense.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 08:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I was a professional management consultant - remember?

No, I don't remember. Please refresh my memory with a link or online
reference.

For which company, listed in your resume, were you a management
consultant?
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>

Predictably, "management consultant" is not list as one of your
abilities, skills or endorsements:
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/skills/>

About
Retired and not looking anymore
Electronics Engineer, Firmware Programmer
Specialties: Very broad range of experience, medical, commercial and
industrial
Robotics, Biotech instruments, embedded systems design and
programming. Chemical analysis systems.

[AMuzi]

On 8/13/2023 10:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 7:41:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/13/2023 8:51 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:03:10 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:47:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

None of that makes any sense to me and by the way both disc
and rim road frames enjoy healthy sales this season.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hab23.jpg

[AMuzi]

Some are, some certainly are not!

Belt change on a Fiat X1/9 starts with 'engine out of car'
and then goes on and on....

Under 10 minutes on a 1965 Chevrolet Corvair or 283V8,
including washing hands after.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 11:18 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> You have to use an integrated bar specifically to fit you. It's the same if you have a different fit with a stem. Remember I said that there was no way that you could get a carbon bar NOT to rotate under load and certain people who had never used carbon bars said that I hadn't any idea what I was talking about? Integrated bars and stem were designed specifically to eliminate that problem. Because of that rotation problem handlebars went from 1 inch to 1 1/8th inch to 31.8 mm and finally 36 mm before giving up and using integrated bars.

Which is why nobody sells non-integrated carbon handlebars any more?
Like these?
https://www.nashbar.com/easton-ec90-ax-carbon-handlebar-black-31.8mm-42cm-rb21ec90ax16d42/p1463244

But I can believe there's no way Tom Kunich can get a carbon handlebar
to NOT rotate under load. That's been demonstrated.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 12:39 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> "> Products are rarely designed for easy repair."
>
> Some are, some certainly are not!
>
> Belt change on a Fiat X1/9 starts with 'engine out of car' and then goes
> on and on....
>
> Under 10 minutes on a 1965 Chevrolet Corvair or 283V8, including washing
> hands after.

Ten minutes? Meh! Watch these guys completely strip a Jeep in under four
minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk-lUsNmQrQ

I don't know if this was a Jeep modified for the trick, or if it was a
consequence of a design requirement for easy wartime repair. But it's
impressive!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 11:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Andrew, I was a professional management consultant - remember?

HAHAHAHA! Thanks, Tom, that made me laugh out loud!

We'll have to add that to the list of your mythical qualifications.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Now THAT was impressive.

[Tom Kunich]

That's right Lou - they designed integrated systems for no reason other than to save weight. Well they don't save weight unless unsafe practices are followed. Perhaps you can explain why the stem/bar diameter interface kept going up and up and up since you think that carbon bars are so safe? Did you say that you weighed 125 lbs or was that someone else?

[Tom Kunich]

Does your spouting bullshit make you feel better for your failures?

"Thomas H Kunich
Fremont, CA
Thomas is an associate degree holder. Current employment is stated as Executive, Administrative, and Managerial Occupations. Thomas’s residency is at 5404 Brophy Driv, Fremont, CA 94536-7211. Six persons linked to this address. Their name are Melissa Finch, Gilbert Garger, and four others. Thomas’s phone numbers are (510) 793-6702 (Pacific Bell), (510) 794-6120. The phone number (510) 793-6702 is also used by Mellissa Vargas, Ann Kunisaki, Ann Kunich, Elizabeth A Kunich. Public records show that the phone number (510) 794-6120 is linked to Elizabeth A Kunich, Michael Brammer, Thomas A Brammer, Ann Kunisaki, Ann Kunich"

There is a lot of confusing data on there since after out divorce, she rented out spare rooms for additional income. She was also a church choir director. And a High school teacher. And a first rate cyclist that rode coast to coast if you ignore that idiot lawyers crying that her starting point in Portland wasn't really on the exact west coast.

[Tom Kunich]

OK, you're a bicycle manufacturer. HOW do you know how many and in what form of bicycles you're going to sell. Remember that the entire business is going to disc brakes even though even many pros do not like them and blame them for crashes. I even watched a video of a crash in the Tour de France in which bikes APPROACHING a large crash slammed on the brakes and did endos without even being involved in the crash. And yet you can't even buy rim brakes in some groups now. So here you are with a bike in which you designed to be useable for either discs or rim brakes - what happens to the rim brake models?

I'm telling you, there is NO way to outguess a fad item. Today you can't buy a top end Trek without disc brakes and you can't buy Dura Ace in manual groupsets. When everyone starts buying 105 manual groups what do you suppose Shimano is going to do? When people stop buying Trek Madone's what is Trek going to do?

Surely this is anticipation but people are NOT buying bicycles in the US these days. Why did it stop? You must have enjoyed a wild ride for a couple of years at least.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, I couldn't get the bar to not rotate. So I turned it over to the ex-7-11 race mechanic and he worked on it and it STILL rotated. How many carbon fiber bars and stem combinations have you used? Exact numbers please.

[AMuzi]

On 8/13/2023 4:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/13/2023 10:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 7:41:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 8/13/2023 8:51 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:03:10 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:47:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

OK I am a bicycle manufacturer.
Trek orders 10,000 boxed units and I make those.
Once fob, I draw on their bank's LC to get paid.

Meanwhile Target or Walmart order 10,000 units and I
schedule those for after we ship the Treks.

The two things I most dislike as a manufacturer are idle
time and inventory. Hate hate hate them.

p.s. I have no need to guess about fickle US consumer
patterns. Not my problem!

Any questions?

[Tom Kunich]

Are you supposing that the European buyer isn't every bit as fickle? Or the Japanese buyer? The parts of the world rich enough to have sport cycling is all fickle and you cannot guess the fads very far ahead of time.

The idea that my Ridley isn't a Ridley because I got it new and cheap doesn't hold any water - NO ONE can afford storage space for stock that isn't moving today at the latest. All you have to do is look at your own showroom floor. The local dealer that was just sold to Trek had TWO bikes on their floor and if you wanted something else you ordered it. That's why Trek bought them out. Fadish sales rely a lot on spur of the moment so you have to have the model and size right then.

[AMuzi]

On 8/13/2023 4:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 2:28:54 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/13/2023 4:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 8/13/2023 10:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>>> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 7:41:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/13/2023 8:51 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:03:10 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:47:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> OK, you're a bicycle manufacturer. HOW do you know how many and in what form of bicycles you're going to sell. Remember that the entire business is going to disc brakes even though even many pros do not like them and blame them for crashes. I even watched a video of a crash in the Tour de France in which bikes APPROACHING a large crash slammed on the brakes and did endos without even being involved in the crash. And yet you can't even buy rim brakes in some groups now. So here you are with a bike in which you designed to be useable for either discs or rim brakes - what happens to the rim brake models?
>>>
>>> I'm telling you, there is NO way to outguess a fad item. Today you can't buy a top end Trek without disc brakes and you can't buy Dura Ace in manual groupsets. When everyone starts buying 105 manual groups what do you suppose Shimano is going to do? When people stop buying Trek Madone's what is Trek going to do?
>>>
>>> Surely this is anticipation but people are NOT buying bicycles in the US these days. Why did it stop? You must have enjoyed a wild ride for a couple of years at least.
>>>
>> OK I am a bicycle manufacturer.
>> Trek orders 10,000 boxed units and I make those.
>> Once fob, I draw on their bank's LC to get paid.
>>
>> Meanwhile Target or Walmart order 10,000 units and I
>> schedule those for after we ship the Treks.
>>
>> The two things I most dislike as a manufacturer are idle
>> time and inventory. Hate hate hate them.
>>
>> p.s. I have no need to guess about fickle US consumer
>> patterns. Not my problem!
>>
>> Any questions?

>

> Are you supposing that the European buyer isn't every bit as fickle? Or the Japanese buyer? The parts of the world rich enough to have sport cycling is all fickle and you cannot guess the fads very far ahead of time.
>
> The idea that my Ridley isn't a Ridley because I got it new and cheap doesn't hold any water - NO ONE can afford storage space for stock that isn't moving today at the latest. All you have to do is look at your own showroom floor. The local dealer that was just sold to Trek had TWO bikes on their floor and if you wanted something else you ordered it. That's why Trek bought them out. Fadish sales rely a lot on spur of the moment so you have to have the model and size right then.
>

Utterly unrelated.

The manufacturer doesn't care if they sell quickly or
slowly, profitably or unprofitably. And if the buyer (Trek
in your example) has too much inventory in EU and moves some
to US or Australia, the manufacturer does not care. Not his
problem.

And if Trek is having weak sales and cuts orders, the
manufacturer will fill his schedule with something else-
another brand of bicycle or some related-process product.
Retail sales volume of bicycles in any given market are just
not his concern.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 14:07:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 9:24:54?AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 08:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I was a professional management consultant - remember?
>> No, I don't remember. Please refresh my memory with a link or online
>> reference.
>>
>> For which company, listed in your resume, were you a management
>> consultant?
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>
>>
>> Predictably, "management consultant" is not list as one of your
>> abilities, skills or endorsements:
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/skills/>
>>
>> About
>> Retired and not looking anymore
>> Electronics Engineer, Firmware Programmer
>> Specialties: Very broad range of experience, medical, commercial and
>> industrial
>> Robotics, Biotech instruments, embedded systems design and
>> programming. Chemical analysis systems.

>Does your spouting bullshit make you feel better for your failures?

Does lying at every opportunity sufficiently compensate for your
incompetence?

>"Thomas H Kunich
>Fremont, CA
>Thomas is an associate degree holder. Current employment is stated as Executive, Administrative, and Managerial Occupations. Thomas’s residency is at 5404 Brophy Driv, Fremont, CA 94536-7211. Six persons linked to this address. Their name are Melissa Finch, Gilbert Garger, and four others. Thomas’s phone numbers are (510) 793-6702 (Pacific Bell), (510) 794-6120. The phone number (510) 793-6702 is also used by Mellissa Vargas, Ann Kunisaki, Ann Kunich, Elizabeth A Kunich. Public records show that the phone number (510) 794-6120 is linked to Elizabeth A Kunich, Michael Brammer, Thomas A Brammer, Ann Kunisaki, Ann Kunich"

I guess(tm) you found all that here:
<https://www.officialusa.com/names/Thomas-Kunich/>
(Click on Filters by State -> California).
The reason it's a mess is that it includes data from 6 people and your
two residences. Anyway, none of that "information" demonstrates that
you actually worked as a "management consultant", especially since you
provided the information for the listing. The term "stated" in

"Current employment is stated as Executive, Administrative, and

Managerial Occupations" means "according to the applicant" as in
"Stated Income" on a loan without proof of income. Simply stating
something does not magically make it true.

"Thomas is an associate degree holder" is an outright lie and
grammatical error.

Let's try again. For which company, listed in your resume, were you a
management consultant? Also, when and for how long?

>There is a lot of confusing data on there since after out divorce, she rented out spare rooms for additional income. She was also a church choir director. And a High school teacher. And a first rate cyclist that rode coast to coast if you ignore that idiot lawyers crying that her starting point in Portland wasn't really on the exact west coast.

So, renting rooms, being a church choir director, a High school
teacher, and a cyclist creates reader confusion? I don't think so.

Was your wife a high school teacher or grade school teacher?
(06/10/2003)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/zq7Xw0dOUx4/m/VMZMGkISAgAJ>
"My wife was a good grade school teacher"
I couldn't find any debate between you and Jay over using Portland, OR
as a start point.

Incidentally, in 2000, 2001 and 2002, the RAAM (Race Across America)
started in Portland Oregon.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Across_America#List_of_overall_solo_winners>
<https://www.raamrace.org>

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

We own all our tooling. We have enclosures made from both metal and plastic. The metal enclosures are explosion proof. We contract the fabrication house to manufacture the mold, and we pay for it - we own it. That way we can move the mold to a different manufacturer should any problems arise, and we can make changes to the mold at our discretion.

>
> I don't know what Lou's company was making and it is possible that they contractually claim rights to the tooling but they sure as hell aren't going to ship molds from China to the Netherlands in the off chance that it becomes cheaper to make their product in Holland.

That's exactly what they do. Molds are quite expensive, our newest injection mold cost us nearly 50K. Our molds for casting metal are even more expensive, and yes, we own them. And yes, if we found a US supplier that could make the parts that _are_ made in china at a competitive price, we would ship the mold to the new fabricator. That's how it works, and that's how it always worked.

> Do you have any idea how much training it takes to manufacture carbon fiber components? It took Taiwan over 10 years to start making acceptably reliable components.

And? What does the learning curve of carbon fiber components have to do with who owns the tooling, dipshit?

> What is your company making that uses carbon fiber?

We manufacture two ATEX rated enclosures. They are an injection molded polycarbonate blend with carbon fiber for strength and ESD requirements. This isn't a layup process, it's basic injection.

Many, if not most, companies own the tooling for the manufacture of their products. It's as much an Intellectual Property issue as it is good business practice for proprietary designs.

You really need to stop talking, tommy, your ignorance on these issues is mindboggling.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 11:41:16 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 7:41:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> Andrew, I was a professional management consultant - remember?

Wow...there's a new one....now you were a professional management consultant? What company was that? What companies did you consult to? What a load of bullshit.

> Companies that ignored my advice failed rapidly.

your history here suggest the opposite is true.

> Please don't pretend to understand manufacturing of small batch fad items.

He understands it far better than you.

> Flunky or Lou who obviously work (or worked) at companies with a utilitarian product with steady stream manufacturing are entirely
> different.

Not at all. It's the same process, slightly different business model since fad items don't need to be sustained for ten years, and in most cases aren't designed to last that long.

> This is not the case with bicycles, What worth is a rim brake frameset now?

More than your "new" ridley
https://www.theproscloset.com/collections/road-frames?brakeType=Rim

> The4 only Ridley FORKS available for the frameset were flat mount disc brake forks with closed end 12 mm axles.

So? Now you have a ridley frame with a different manufacturers fork. When I see a bike like that on ebay I think "they hit something and trashed the fork, don't trust the frame". Good luck flipping that, moron.

>
> This is a different world than you know.

Wow, the arrogance of _you_ saying that to Andrew.

> Why would Ridley WANT any tooling designed to manufacture a frame or fork no longer being bought?

IP protection, dumbass. If they own the mold no one else can use it to make knock-offs.

> Do you honestly believe that there is any real difference between the $2.500 Ridley frame and the $280 BXT?

Yes, significant. QC ensures the product with the Ridley name is of the quality they wish to sustain. A company selling the "same" frame for $280 isn't spending a lot of time on QC.

> Do you think that the Chinese legal system would in any way protect their manufacturers for the errors they could commit?

Certainly, The corruption in Chinas manufacturing sectors is legendary. Here's the latest
https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-war/article/3187336/chinas-state-run-semiconductor-fund-engulfed-scandal-beijing-probes

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

They were right. You don't know what you're talking about. As lou notes below if you set it up correctly you don't have any issues.

> >Integrated bars and stem were designed specifically to eliminate that problem.

No, thats not why. It was for aerodynamics, and strength vs weight.

> >Because of that rotation problem handlebars went from 1 inch to 1 1/8th inch to 31.8 mm and finally 36 mm before giving up and using integrated bars.

Diameter increased to make the bar stiffer at a lighter weight, you idiot, not to prevent rotation.

> >Until you've hit a bump and had the handlebars rotate down 30 degrees or more you don't know what "startle" means.

That's because you're the one that put it together, not because of any inherent design flaw.

> Never had a handlebar rotate and I use a CF handlebar on my climbing bike for 9 years now. The reason for integrated handlebars is their aero advantage. Please stop this nonsense.

This is my experience as well. I've had a bar slip on me once or twice over the years, it wasn't the bars fault. It was because I didn't torque the bolts properly. Tommy, follow this advice from Lou.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

What kind of idiot publishes his phone number in a public forum?

[John B.]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 09:08:33 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:18:08?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 2:11:46?AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

But you are talking to Tom... who had to have the Lawyer that used to
post here tell him how to install a bottom bracket. Had problems
installing a seat post and did have rotating handle bars until he
discovered that his handle bars weren't the correct size to fit the
stem. (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 09:25:37 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/12/2023 7:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:47:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/12/2023 2:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 11:55:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC+2, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>>>>>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>>>>>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>>>>>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

>>>>> It is unlikely that a Chinese manufacturer does make a bunch of frames and hopes Ridley might buy them. They produce on order is my experience. We design the part review it with the manufacturer and they make the mold and produce the number we ask. The mold is our property.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>

>>>> Lou, that's not the way it works. The Chinese factory is pumping frames out and Ridley is buying them Suddenly Ridley has a bunch of excess stock because people started buying their aero version. The cancel their orders for more frames and the Chinese factory is stuck with excess stock. They don't have any storage room because they are building frames for 5 other companies and they need the room. They TRIED to sell them for $300 and they weren't moving but at $200 they probably cleaned out their excess stock. This is normal business practice. There are some integrated handlebars that are selling for $900 and they are 200 grams lighter than the ones selling for $65.
>>>>
>>>> The sort of consulting work I did I had to be completely aware of marketing practices and there is nothing unusual about this. How in the hell do you think that they can sell an unbranded bike that weighs the same as a Specialized Tarmac for 1/10th the price?
>>>>
>>> That's not how it works.
>>> No modern contract manufacturer makes product without an
>>> order.
>

>> No manufacturer is going to set a contract for a given number of articles. Do you suppose that if an article turns out to be very popular they are going to change their contract in mid stream? Or order spares separately? They contract for a minimum number PLUS until notice. And the minimum number has to be above the profit margin for making the tooling. For instance - the Pinarello Opera forks are STILL MADE on the SAME TOOLING. If you can find the people who have the tooling. https://www.ebay.com/itm/303895329626?hash=item46c192bb5a:g:7kMAAOSwhcJhjztx&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8Oqq5xUUmbIyHxofCaw8PdPCQtgZ9ut2KI%2FXad8OYrIwjkOyUnA1XtHyfp7fZ8vJlKwffcINoiR%2FAZ21NLi6dxT8gG6dbzRgHF2wm%2FVHMjciECyJ6VbQLB7vlC6Xp%2FdILhCg7duRgg7a%2B9acH89kXGFEg2POrmKPHALZfX32wFXIEPQ0cWckU8nfB%2BqDNainIopRqWLUjpmTKhASF9gEtUplCl4b7rOoOMiwHChduVBxhSWVfpK2BOC5I1JNQ2RtIiIDPCjt5UpgP4YRnhyjlDUZ6ONYRh1TDAV3XiX4P9nDvKU6XtioGrBKS5N7Z2zT0g%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bqu8C9Yg
>>
>
>My experience in dealing with small manufacturers for our
>own design products for 40 years is at odds with your
>description.
>
>in re fork example: Even if I own the tool I still have to
>contract a production run and the price is variable by
>volume, packaging requirements and by delivery date('rush'
>costs more).

I don't know what world Tom lives in but it certainly isn't the same
world that the rest of us live in. The company I worked for did
occasionally contract for something to be manufactured for our use and
the system was always the same. Agree on the design, specifications
and quantity and the maker would provide a delivery date and price. If
you wanted faster delivery it could be discussed but usually entailed
an increase in price.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Zero, and not pertinent. You fall back on that "How many have _you_... "
excuse very often when you're losing an argument. But you never seem to
think of it when you're spouting nonsense about the hundreds of issues
with which you have zero experience.

Thousands upon thousands of cyclists now use carbon bars. I've heard of
only one who claimed he absolutely couldn't keep them from rotating.
He's the same guy who couldn't keep his seatpost from slipping, couldn't
figure out his bottom bracket components, couldn't get his Di2 to work,
etc. etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Tell me Flunky - why is it that you don't answer questions but say stupid things as if they were saying something?

You own the tooling of something you make locally out of metal and plastic and pretend that that is the same as something made far away out of another material. Why do you work so hard trying to pretend that you know about things that you don't? ATEX enclosures are made for use in explosive atmospheres. Please explain how that in any way compares to building a carbon fiber bicycle frame?

I have about had it with treating you like an adult because you're not one. Talking with you is like talking to a 10 year old.

[Tom Kunich]

What kind of idiot thinks that a Bell Telephone number from 20 years ago has anything at all to so with today?

[Tom Kunich]

OK, so you've never owned a carbon fiber bar, you never worked on one. You don't know the first thing about them, but it isn't pertinent and you feel the need to discuss them as if you had experience with them. In the meantime the actual manufacturers have been trying to get them safe and being unable have invented the integrated bar to get around the problem.

And you don't have the slightest idea why people hold you and your opinions in contempt. It is becoming clear why you "retired".

[Lou Holtman]

Tom explain to me why a CF handlebar has to slip by default and a aluminum not? Oh, and when we at it explain to me why my CF handlebars on my FS and climbing bike didn't slip in the 7 and 9 years I used them after initial installation? A miracle? Luck? Or maybe quality bars/stems that are not undersized or oversized? I am curious.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Tell me dipshit, how is it you can't comprehend when questions were adequately answered? Is it that you are afraid to attempt to answer the question about the learning curve?

> You own the tooling of something you make locally out of metal and plastic and pretend that that is the same as something made far away out of another material.

Wow...how fukcing stupid can one person be? Our plastics are made in china, that's where the molds are, and we own the molds. Our metal castings are made locally, but there no reason we couldn't transfer them to China. This issue here is an overseas fabricator using a mold that we own. The material the mold is made from, or for, is completely irrelevant, dipshit.

> Why do you work so hard trying to pretend that you know about things that you don't?

You tell us. So far all you shown is that you have no clue how a manufacturing supply chain works.

> ATEX enclosures are made for use in explosive atmospheres. Please explain how that in any way compares to building a carbon fiber bicycle frame?

1) Whether the product is made for explosive atmospheres or not is irrelevant. In that case, it's the material properties and the design of the enclosure that are critical. The molding process has little to do with it.
2) The material is irrelevant to the context of this discussion, dipshit. The point is whether companies choose to own fabrication molds that are in the physical possession of a company overseas.

> I have about had it with treating you like an adult because you're not one. Talking with you is like talking to a 10 year old.

Right back atcha, dipshit.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I've had the same home phone number since 1997, you dumb fuck. I"m willing to bet most of the people in this forum have numbers older than that.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, you have claimed to be a mechanical engineer. This would suggest that you actually have an education and know what coefficient of friction means. Why have you not fallen back on fact rather than possible fiction? You have shown us picture after picture of flat ground and seamless roads. Nothing at all like we have here. Your bars didn't slip? No wonder to me.

https://www.engineersedge.com/coeffients_of_friction.htm

As the charts show, aluminum against aluminum has a coefficient of friction of 1.1 to 1.35

Carbon against carbon is 0.15

Why this pretense from you and Frank who admits to never once having the slightest experience with carbon fiber that my experience is in some manner against the laws of physics?

[Tom Kunich]

You've also had that dead end job since 1997. Am I supposed to be impressed? By the guy unable to find Embarcadero Systems Inc on the past stock exchange?

https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/4938944Z:US#xj4y7vzkg

Oh, wait, according to Liebermann, your buddy, they never hired me and didn't fire me. He desires that I show the receipts. And according to you EV battery fires that melted cars into the asphalt never happened and the actual marks on the main roads mean nothing. The fact that cars don't melt into the asphalt from gas fires because the fire department can put them out with water means nothing and the fact that water has no effect on battery fires allowing the cars to melt into the pavement is apparently beyond you.

I wonder what fictions you will come up with next. You do realize that you're making every single claim you make seem more than nothing other than another fiction?

I am beginning to wonder if there is one honest person between you, Krygowski, Liebermann and now I even have to wonder about Lou. It isn't as if they invented integrated bars and stem to be lighter when the first ones were measurably heavier.

What is even funnier is that you think you can somehow reduce the worth of my investments by denying them. That tells me that you are paid so little that you could not have any investments.

Liebermann had the same problem. He could not get a job in the hottest electronics market in the world. I wonder if this was because he was so abrasive or if he became abrasive because he couldn't get a job since he still thinks the ultimate in electronics is a vacuum tube? When Liebermann got his degree transistors were the hottest new thing in electronics. So WHY did he never learn anything about them? My stepdaughter is just finishing her PhD in occupational therapy (her graduation is in a week) and she has been offered a teaching position and a middle management position without ever working one day in her major. My step son is finishing his PhD in Business management with a masters in electronics engineering. He is a manager of a major Aerospace firm in San Diego.

No wonder the US has fallen behind Africa. The US Woke believe that Obama and Biden are examples of honest government.

[Tom Kunich]

I wonder if you can even read yourself and wonder how that even applies to the fad bicycle industry! You are missing more than a few screws and if your company is successful it is no help from you.

[Lou Holtman]

I have developed a good feeling about COF during my career and I have done countless COF measurements. The interface between a CF stem and handlebar is nowhere near 0.15, maybe a pure carbon fiber against another pure carbon fiber. Besides it is a mixture of fibers and resin the interface is roughened, coated and gritted. And btw I had my portion of bumps, potholes and bad pavement. Go ride in Belgium.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043164804000134

This shows a coefficient larger than the other listing but still WAY below aluminum on aluminum. What especially bothers me is the claim from you and Krygowski who hasn't any experience with the material, that I must not know what I'm doing if I use the proper maximum torque and have serious slippage. If I use the sandy carbon paste and still get the same results it is my incompetence.

"Tahoe Gator Discussion starter · May 14, 2004

I have a 31 mm Stella Azurra Vice Versa stem and I can't seem to keep carbon bars from slipping at the prescribed 5 N*m of bolt torque. I am careful to tighten them in small amounts alternatively and sequentially to the desired torque, e.g., top right bolt a quarter turn, then bottom left quarter turn, etc., etc.

They stay snug until I hit the occassional unseen bump and then, with a loud noise, twist just enough to piss me off. Enough bumps and they need readjustment. When I examine the bars, I note that some of the clear cote on the bars has come off and you can see where the stem has ever so slightly squeezed the carbon a bit. This was the case with my prior Modolos and is now the case with my Kestrels, so I don't think it's the bar.

What adivce to keep em from slipping? Thanks."

Why do you suppose that they invented integrated carbon bars/stem when originally they were heavier than separate bars and stem?

[Frank Krygowski]

Wow. What a classic example of "just enough knowledge to be dangerous"!

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- Frank Krygowski