Mediocre wheelbuilder discovers a trick
Bill
obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on
wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out-
of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout,
squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By
squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too
tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different
from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension.
When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems
too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the
same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has
the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get
the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2
turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then
before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke-
squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was
having getting wheels round and true! I was never able to figure out a
foolproof, systematic and methodical way of getting all the spokes at
the same tension until I started doing this.
OK, hotshots, go ahead and tell me how dumb I was not to have
discovered this a long time ago! Doh!
cycledogg
Thanks Bill,
That statement helps me with my problem I have had for awhile as I
have just started to do
my own wheel work. No flames from me on this topic.
Cheers,
Rick in Tennessee
Chalo
>
> I know all you hotshot wheelbuilders out there will think this is
> obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on
> wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out-
> of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout,
> squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By
> squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too
> tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different
> from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension.
> When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems
> too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the
> same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has
> the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get
> the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2
> turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then
> before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke-
> squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was
> having getting wheels round and true!
That's a good technique. I am accustomed to giving spokes a little
pluck to hear them when deciding which ones to adjust and in which
direction.
My latest refinement to my truing method has been to run the rim in
the notched portion of the indicator and true for lateral and radial
position at the same time, rather than alternately. Almost every
displacement has a bias on the other axis, and by observing the vector
of the displacement and the relative tensions of spokes in the area,
it becomes more obvious which spokes need the most taking up or
letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given
deviation. By truing both axes in the same operations, I find that I
can spend less time sorting out a wheel, keep more consistent tension,
and send out repaired wheels that are usually both truer and rounder
than new.
Chalo
thirty-six
Couple of lolly sticks with the rim 'sitting' in the V seems to work
well.
Tosspot
I tend to spin the wheel and run a pencil on the spokes for a quick
test of tension. Then I'm afraid I use a tensiometer :(
Am I alone in being able, at a rough guess, to get a wheel true in
both axis? I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread
the nipples, leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a
turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start
messing about. Most of the wheels come up straight and true very
quickly by this method.
Chalo
>
> I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread
> the nipples, leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a
> turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start
> messing about. Most of the wheels come up straight and true very
> quickly by this method.
I keep counting turns until the wheel has a significant amount of
tension throughout-- no slack remaining anywhere. I find that some of
the anomalies I would otherwise try to true out before that point
disappear in the process of bringing the wheel up to tension.
Chalo
Norman
Exactly. & when I do have an ugly displacement,
it is often easier to just loosen everything up and
try again (more carefully).
(PeteCresswell)
>Am I alone in being able, at a rough guess, to get a wheel true in
>both axis? I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread
>the nipples, leave say 3 threads open
I'm the same way with counting turns - and I do a lot of quarter
turns.
Never had any problem with hop.
When I'm truing laterally, I use a Sharpie pen to mark spokes or
rim at the apex of the misalignment. Then I go back and
tighten/loosen spokes around same.
--
PeteCresswell
datakoll
leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a
turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start
messing about.
Wheel trueing discussion does implement considerable language
problems, amusing reading in itself.
Chalo, who does build wheels, here describes the expert’s method.
Bill, on the other uh foot, either gropes for language or missed a
turn – nit criticism but a point passed thru muhself.
The idea (opinion) is carefully seating nipples equally just so –
against the rim.
Noting carefully where the rim is out then correcting those deviations
from the start, from the first nudge. As there’s no reason not to
tighten the OUTS before the more or less true then continue with 10%
more in the outs as you go.
The anaomalies:” I find that some of
the anomalies I would otherwise try to true out before that point
disappear in the process of bringing the wheel up to tension.” YUP!
Brandt points out that as the wheel goes to true, the math effect
takes place where in fact all surfaces tend to become equally
distributed forces. Think on it right. TRUE !
Somewhere down road on maybe the 10th build, if you’re smart enough
with spatial planning and analysis – like yawl really gotta try here
it just doesn’t osmose that easily, the radial and lateral will come
together.
I count and mark with the sharpy from the middle of the OUT then true
middle out with decreasing torques.
And try quarter tightening not circumferential, latter introducing
stray forces best left equalized in quartering.
?
datakoll
spokes by squeezing then how would you tell if the nipples are
actually seated equally ?
thirty-six
The rim runs true with a load applied and remains true with varience
in load.
Tosspot
Yep. One when I was doing in a very lassy fair[1] manner went like
that. Deep sigh, undid it all, started again and perfect. And also
I've noticed as well that they seem to go a bit squiffy before coming
nice and straight.
[1] So shoot me, I can't spell the French.
Bill
and by observing the vector of the displacement and the relative
tensions of spokes in the area, it becomes more obvious which spokes
need the most taking up or
letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given
deviation."
Chalo, would it be possible for you to go into this in any more
detail, or maybe give a hypothetical example? I think I understand
what you are saying, but it would be nice to have you "spoon-feed" it
to me "using crayons", if you will pardon the mixed metaphor.
Clive George
news:6ZOdnek257GnIm7X...@giganews.com...
>
> lassy fair[1]
>
> [1] So shoot me, I can't spell the French.
You want a lassy fair, with a laissez-faire attitude :-)
Andre Jute
Relieving the spoke crossings seems to me to be the essence of not
building a wheel with built-in stresses that will release and at the
least convenient time undo all your work.
So it clearly isn't a "trivial" technique you've discovered. But
"obvious"? Sure it was obvious to me, heh-heh. right after I read
Sheldon on wheelbuilding, and by the time I got to read Brandt's book,
it was old news.
That said, I should admit I've only once ever rebuilt a pair of
wheels, which were badly machine-built, but they're still round and
true and tight four years later.
In fact, I made those wheels an ongoing project on the bike over a
period of about a month. Once I got them approximately right -- which
just means better than they arrived, nowhere near perfect -- I would
use the road and the very close chainstays as my testbed, and at the
midway halt of my daily ride squeeze all pairs hard and then test for
spokes looser than any others, until a quarter turn on any spoke upset
the balance of the wheel, the sort of transference Chalo is talking
about; I too would like to hear his neddy explanation and see his
crayon drawings, because he does this for a living, and, as you can
imagine, I sometimes wonder whether I didn't get those two wheels
right by pure dumb luck.
Andre Jute
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. --H.H.Munro
("Saki")(1870-1916)
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
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Michael Press
<bea8db0d-463a-4f10...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Bill <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
For the interim. Suppose the rim has a warp to the right.
you tighten spokes on the left. Result: warp is attenuated,
there is a radial flat spot.
Sooo, when adjusting to remove a lateral warp, you both
tighten and loosen spokes to attenuate the lateral warp,
while maintaining approximately the same lateral force,
thus keeping radial trueness.
--
Michael Press
thirty-six
> In article
> <bea8db0d-463a-4f10-812f-de049ff92...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
With the rim radially true at good tension, the rim should also be
laterally true. If it isn't thenyou have failed to make your
interlace stable, you have bows in your spokes. Either spend three
minutes in removing the bows and two minutes truing up or another half
an hour chasing your tail.
Chalo
No problem.
When there is a kick to the right or left, using the notch in the
indicator can tell you whether that kick is accompanied by a radial
bulge or a radial flat spot. If it's a bulge, you take spokes in,
and if it's a flat spot you let them out, on the side that corrects
the axial kick.
Radial corrections are usually made among pairs, fours, or sixes of
spokes. If there is an accompanying lateral correction, incorporating
that into the radial correction by adding a quarter turn here or
loosening a half turn there can simplify overall truing.
Sometimes, the spoke adjustment that will best correct the radial
displacement would worsen the lateral displacement (or vice versa) and
you have to have to adjust three, four, five, or six spokes to
accomplish the correction. For instance, a kick to the left
accompanied by a radial bulge might mean you tighten two spokes on the
right and the one on the left that falls in between. In doing that,
you can correct both deviations at the same time.
My casual observation is that by correcting multiple deflections
together, it is easier to maintain reasonably consistent spoke
tension.
All the time I am making these adjustments, I pluck spokes to inform
my decision whether to loosen or tighten and where. Any correction
that brings spoke tension closer to the median is preferable to one
that brings tensions further out of line from each other.
Chalo
Bill
Michael Press
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
^^^^^^^
Arrrghh! radial
datakoll
six adjacent spokes adjusted for radial true might not affect lateral
trueness.
my experinece was: somewhere in the middle torque area, where laeral
trueness was evident, and where radial untrueness had formed, I would
then move to radial trueing. The radial trueing, and my touring rims
would get lumpy, would then alter lateral rule or not, bringing the
experience of doind both at once AS NEEDED. As Kirk said; "It's
experiential."