Where did all the comfortable saddles go?
Ned Konz
It's getting about time to replace my Avocet M20 Gelflex saddle. It
was bought a few years ago (3? 2?). This is a saddle that has a medium
amount of gel (about 3/8" of travel at the sitbones, I'd guess). It is
lycra-covered. It is about the same shape as a Brooks Professional
(though of course it's got a plastic shell). It has been quite
comfortable for the kind of riding that I have been doing (mostly
commuting and weekend rides).
I ride what around here is called a "road bike" but is actually a
"loaded touring bike" (living in Santa Cruz CA, this is a pretty rare
animal). I want to do long self-contained tours again (like my '85
Florida to Oregon trip).
I went to my LBS (actually, a couple of them) to look for a
replacement.
However, all I saw were:
* Gel saddles with WAY too much gel (about 1-1/2" thick or more).
These actually would jiggle like jello if you shook them.
* Plastic-shell saddles with very pointy noses and rear ends that
slope up quite a bit. These are covered with some kind of non-slip
plastic material.
I bought an Avocet O2 Air 40R saddle (which says that they'll replace
it if it's not the most comfortable saddle you've ever owned).
Alas, it's not the most comfortable. I've tried adjusting its angle,
seatpost height, etc. Its non-slip surface is annoying when I'm trying
to change positions (actually, there is pretty much only one position
on this saddle).
Are manufacturers slaves of fashion in their selection of seat shapes,
or is there some reason that all the saddles that aren't way
over-gelled are shaped the same way? Has there been some research I
missed in the last few years? Or are they just designing seats that
"look cool" on mountain bikes?
Where can I get a comfortable saddle for long-distance touring (I
know, buy the Brooks and wait for it to break in)? Twelve years ago
when I got the touring bike, there were a number of good touring
saddles available.
Thanks.
da...@erinet.com
>It's getting about time to replace my Avocet M20 Gelflex saddle. It
>was bought a few years ago (3? 2?). This is a saddle that has a medium
>amount of gel (about 3/8" of travel at the sitbones, I'd guess). It is
>lycra-covered. It is about the same shape as a Brooks Professional
>(though of course it's got a plastic shell). It has been quite
>comfortable for the kind of riding that I have been doing (mostly
>commuting and weekend rides).
IMHO, the Avocet M20 Gelflex was a hard act to follow -- a very nice
saddle!
>I ride what around here is called a "road bike" but is actually a
>"loaded touring bike" (living in Santa Cruz CA, this is a pretty rare
>animal). I want to do long self-contained tours again (like my '85
>Florida to Oregon trip).
>
>I went to my LBS (actually, a couple of them) to look for a
>replacement. However, all I saw were:
>
>* Gel saddles with WAY too much gel (about 1-1/2" thick or more).
>These actually would jiggle like jello if you shook them.
>
>* Plastic-shell saddles with very pointy noses and rear ends that
>slope up quite a bit. These are covered with some kind of non-slip
>plastic material.
But they look cool ;-)
>I bought an Avocet O2 Air 40R saddle (which says that they'll replace
>it if it's not the most comfortable saddle you've ever owned).
>
>Alas, it's not the most comfortable. I've tried adjusting its angle,
>seatpost height, etc. Its non-slip surface is annoying when I'm trying
>to change positions (actually, there is pretty much only one position
>on this saddle).
>
>Are manufacturers slaves of fashion in their selection of seat shapes,
>or is there some reason that all the saddles that aren't way
>over-gelled are shaped the same way? Has there been some research I
>missed in the last few years? Or are they just designing seats that
>"look cool" on mountain bikes?
They're slaves of fashion. If it looks cool, it must be great. This
type of thinking is not limited to makers of bicycle saddles, however
-- it infects other areas as well. There's probably been lots of
research in the area but it's uniformly ignored for the sake of
styling.
>Where can I get a comfortable saddle for long-distance touring (I
>know, buy the Brooks and wait for it to break in)? Twelve years ago
>when I got the touring bike, there were a number of good touring
>saddles available.
Brooks saddles have certainly stood the test of time. The "break-in"
time may not be all that bad and their saddles last forever if cared
for.
However, you might look at some other bike shops. The Terry folks are
making some well thought out saddles for both men and women. The few
of them that I've seen appear to be genuine improvements over the M20.
Find the FAQ for this newsgroup and read all the articles pertaining
to saddles (both men's and women's saddles -- some good information as
well as sources, etc.).
You might look in "for sale" or advertise for an M20. I got a new (!)
W20 woman's saddle for a friend for $10 from the group about 2 months
ago, so I know they're out there. I don't know the age of this NOS
saddle but the gel was quite flexible. Except for the blue lettering
on the side and 1/2" greater width, it was the same as my M20.
Good luck.
..............dh.
Bike Doc
Matt O'Toole <ma...@deltanet.com> wrote in article
<01bcad97$87cf2da0$32ca...@Pmatt.deltanet.com>...
:
:
: Ned Konz <ned...@scruznet.com> wrote in article
: <33fdfdb6...@news.scruznet.com>...
:
: Long tale of saddle woes snipped...
: > Where can I get a comfortable saddle for long-distance touring (I
: > know, buy the Brooks and wait for it to break in)? Twelve years ago
: > when I got the touring bike, there were a number of good touring
: > saddles available.
There are many comfortable saddles on the market. Saddles are alot like
running shoes,you have to find the right saddle to fit your anatomy.
Interesting though some of the most often used saddles that I noted riders
using in Tour de France are models that have been around for some time,
these include Turbos and Rolls.There were also many riding Flite saddles.
Since these guys have to ride 6-8 hours a day on the Tour they must be on
to something. All saddles take some breaking in as well as your body
adapting to the saddle and position. It is easier to break in a saddle in
warmer weather as both your body and the material of the saddle are more
compliant.
Good Luck
Richard Strayer
>: Long tale of saddle woes snipped...
>: > Where can I get a comfortable saddle for long-distance touring (I
>: > know, buy the Brooks and wait for it to break in)? Twelve years ago
>: > when I got the touring bike, there were a number of good touring
>: > saddles available.
>
>There are many comfortable saddles on the market. Saddles are alot like
>running shoes,you have to find the right saddle to fit your anatomy.
>Interesting though some of the most often used saddles that I noted riders
>using in Tour de France are models that have been around for some time,
>these include Turbos and Rolls.There were also many riding Flite saddles.
>Since these guys have to ride 6-8 hours a day on the Tour they must be on
>to something. All saddles take some breaking in as well as your body
>adapting to the saddle and position. It is easier to break in a saddle in
>warmer weather as both your body and the material of the saddle are more
>compliant.
>
>Good Luck
I have to disagree with the last part - not all saddles take some
breaking-in. The thin, plastic shell models don't get any more
comfortable with age. Assuming your butt is acclimated to a bicycle
seat, if it doesn't feel right the first time you sit on it, it never
will (regardless of the weather.)
RES
John Forrest Tomlinson
In <33fdfdb6...@news.scruznet.com> ned...@scruznet.com (Ned Konz)
writes:
>I want to do long self-contained tours again (like my '85
>Florida to Oregon trip).
>
>I went to my LBS (actually, a couple of them) to look for a
>replacement.
>
>However, all I saw were:
(snip)
>* Plastic-shell saddles with very pointy noses and rear ends that
>slope up quite a bit. These are covered with some kind of non-slip
>plastic material.
I'm not a tourist but spend a lot of time on the bike, and there are
some pretty minimal saddles that are extremely comfortable. I've got
Selle Italia Trimatic and its super comfortable. The same companies
Turbomatic is quite plush too.
JT
McEowen
"I know, buy the Brooks and wait for it to break in . . . "
Actually, the break-in is no sweat. I recently bought a pre-softened
Brooks Pro and have had no problems. It's not as comfortable as the one I
bought in 1978 -- yet -- but it's not uncomfortable either. Go for the
Brooks!
Stephen Yiu Wah Lau
I can't believe anyone hasn't mentioned Louis Garneau BioGel saddles!!!
Maybe cuz it's a Canadian company- who knows... Anyways, it is the
most comfortable saddle I've ever sat in... the gel is very supportive,
not jiggly and bouncy, and the saddles are available in different
densities of gels and foams to suit your butt... and also different
styles for MTBs, racing, touring etc...
If you can find one, try it out... I use a Viper D1 and my friend has
a Weekend... both extremely comfortable- cushions those sitting bones
perfectly, even when not using chamois.
Steve
--
Stephen Lau --> sywlau@(see below) | Why are there no recreational
University of Calgary @acs.ucalgary.ca | drugs taken in suppository form?
Department of Chemistry @chem.ucalgary.ca |
http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~sywlau/ | Office: SB429A/437 Lab: SB436
da...@erinet.com
>Wait a minute. Why buy a brooks? ...That was twenty years ago!
Right. And, they're still making them and folks are still buying
them. There's a message in that!
...........dh
p.s. You could have said . . . "that was sixty years ago!" Does
anyone know how long Brooks has been making their saddles?
Jobst Brandt
Richard Strayer writes:
> I have to disagree with the last part - not all saddles take some
> breaking-in. The thin, plastic shell models don't get any more
> comfortable with age. Assuming your butt is acclimated to a bicycle
> seat, if it doesn't feel right the first time you sit on it, it never
> will (regardless of the weather.)
I fully agree, and when you hear someone repeatedly mentioning that
his saddle is so well broken in or the like, you are hearing a guy
whose saddle is a pain in the ass. It's when you intend to evaluate
the comfort of your saddle and forget to do so before the end of the
ride, that you know your saddle is OK. It reminds me of the guy who
drives a diesel car and tells you how you can't even notice it's a
diesel. If that were true, he would have forgotten about it long ago
and never mentioned it.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
David Rees
In '92 I bought a Turbomatic 'cause all the guys at Bicycling! thought it
was the most comfortable. A feww Thousand kms later, my ass still hurt like
Hell, so I chopped bits out of it. It was OK after that, then I had an
accident which wrecked my saddle, so I bought an Iscaselle Pluma because I
needed a saddle immediately, and it was the only racing saddle the store
had(!?!). It's super skinny, and the shell is titanium, so you'd think it
would hurt worse than the Turbomatic, but it's actually really good. The
best I ever tried was a friend's Vetta TT. It takes a while to find a good
saddle, and when you do, look at the shape, so you'll have a better idea of
what you like. For instance, I like a saddle that is pretty flat when
viewed from the side; this allows me to move forward or back without always
sliding back into the middle. I also like a narrow saddle, although I
always thought I needed a wide one. Finally, I like a flat rear portion,
like the Vetta, which helps eliminate pressure on the perineum(on men).
Mojavetred
>> It's getting about time to replace my Avocet M20 Gelflex saddle. It
>> was bought a few years ago (3? 2?). This is a saddle that has a medium
>> amount of gel (about 3/8" of travel at the sitbones, I'd guess). It is
>> Lycra-covered. It is about the same shape as a Brooks Professional
>> (though of course it's got a plastic shell). It has been quite
>> comfortable for the kind of riding that I have been doing (mostly
>> commuting and weekend rides).
> I bought an Iscaselle Pluma because I
>needed a saddle immediately, and it was the only racing saddle the store
>had(!?!). It's super skinny, and the shell is titanium, so you'd think it
>would hurt worse than the Turbomatic, but it's actually really good. The
>best I ever tried was a friend's Vetta TT. It takes a while to find a
good
>saddle, and when you do, look at the shape, so you'll have a better idea
of
>what you like. For instance, I like a saddle that is pretty flat when
>viewed from the side; this allows me to move forward or back without
always
>sliding back into the middle. I also like a narrow saddle, although I
>always thought I needed a wide one. Finally, I like a flat rear portion,
>like the Vetta, which helps eliminate pressure on the perineum(on men).
I would agree that the Vetta TT is a very comfortable saddle. The most
comfortable saddle I've found for Century Rides/Ordeals is the San Marco
Turbo Dynamica which is similar in design and padding to the Vetta TT. I
have also ridden the Avocet 02 (Men's model), Inmotion HFS, but the
obscure Turbo Dynamica is the saddle I've "settled" on.
CogSet
In article <5thsaq$i...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>, jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst
Brandt) writes:
>> Where can I get a comfortable saddle for long-distance touring (I
>> know, buy the Brooks and wait for it to break in)? Twelve years ago
>> when I got the touring bike, there were a number of good touring
>> saddles available.
>
>I think you are better off with a Flite than a leather ass-hatchet.
I believe there is exists enough variation in the Brooks line to
warrant the following:
It is unfair to put all leather saddles in the same
"leather ass-hatchet" basket.
Years ago I had a Brooks Pro that NEVER broke in. After 2.5 seasons
I concluded that *IT* had won the *BATTLE* (for lack of a better term)
and sold it to a rather large guy whose anatomy provided, shall we say,
a lot of its own cushion. Never heard back from him.
I currently ride two bikes, one with a Brooks B17 and one with a Flite
and I definately find the B17 more comfortable on rides over 35 miles
and noticed no real *break-in* period. Perhaps the leather on the B17
is thinner than the Pro?
regards,
Peter Guyton
hau...@mbi.org
In article <19970822131...@ladder02.news.aol.com> cog...@aol.com (CogSet) writes:
>From: cog...@aol.com (CogSet)
>Subject: Re: Where did all the comfortable saddles go?
>Date: 22 Aug 1997 13:17:37 GMT
>In article <5thsaq$i...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>, jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst
>Brandt) writes:
>>I think you are better off with a Flite than a leather ass-hatchet.
Peter wrote:
>Years ago I had a Brooks Pro that NEVER broke in. After 2.5 seasons
>I concluded that *IT* had won the *BATTLE* (for lack of a better term)
>and sold it to a rather large guy whose anatomy provided, shall we say,
>a lot of its own cushion. Never heard back from him.
>I currently ride two bikes, one with a Brooks B17 and one with a Flite
>and I definately find the B17 more comfortable on rides over 35 miles
>and noticed no real *break-in* period.
It's interesting how Brooks owners' camps seem to be so strongly polar. Ya
either love 'em or hate 'em, I guess. Something else for Garry and Jobst to
fight about, I reckon.
Rich
Tim
cog...@aol.com (CogSet) wrote:
>In article <5thsaq$i...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>, jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst
>Brandt) writes:
>>> Where can I get a comfortable saddle for long-distance touring (I
>>> know, buy the Brooks and wait for it to break in)? Twelve years ago
>>> when I got the touring bike, there were a number of good touring
>>> saddles available.
>>
>>I think you are better off with a Flite than a leather ass-hatchet.
>I believe there is exists enough variation in the Brooks line to
>warrant the following:
> It is unfair to put all leather saddles in the same
> "leather ass-hatchet" basket.
>Years ago I had a Brooks Pro that NEVER broke in. After 2.5 seasons
>I concluded that *IT* had won the *BATTLE* (for lack of a better term)
>and sold it to a rather large guy whose anatomy provided, shall we say,
>a lot of its own cushion. Never heard back from him.
>I currently ride two bikes, one with a Brooks B17 and one with a Flite
>and I definately find the B17 more comfortable on rides over 35 miles
>and noticed no real *break-in* period. Perhaps the leather on the B17
>is thinner than the Pro?
>regards,
>Peter Guyton
"Ass-hatchet"! Now thats funny....let me stop laughing...OK.
When I bought my B17 I compared it to the Pro and found the Pro to be
hard as a rock. The B17 was much softer. For me the break-in period
wasn't so much the saddle softening up but rather it conforming to my
shape. It is definitely more comfortable now than when new, (was good
then too) but isn't softer to the touch. I've got about 1000 miles on
it so far.
Tim
Ass-hatchet...harhar gotta remember that...
Rick Denney
I still have an Ideale Model 90 (?) that is very similar to a
natural-colored Brooks Pro. Very comfortable, and always softer than a
Brooks. But it weighs a ton and it isn't more comfortable than a
Turbo-matic 2.
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:47:37 GMT, jo...@interaccess.com (Joel P.
Klein) wrote:
>
>What happened to the Ideale saddle? It was often offered as an option
>to the Brooks line on pro bikes and was considered to be equal in
>comfort and quality.
Rick Denney
Remember--free advice is worth what you pay for it!
Jobst Brandt
Ed Chait writes:
>>> What happened to the Ideale saddle? It was often offered as an option
>>> to the Brooks line on pro bikes and was considered to be equal in
>>> comfort and quality.
>> That's probably why it is gone. Another ass-hatchet.
> I can't believe that our prolific resident cycling physician is not
> joining in this fray:).
Not to worry. I have one B17 left and it is comfortable to ride. I
keep it that way by not riding it anymore because it might get wet and
be ruined as were the many Brooks saddles I've had. Today I ride
saddles that don't change and ride comfortably for me from the moment
they are installed.
> Is Garry on vacation? Is his ass begging for mercy?
Garry has some good leather saddles and I'm sure he rides well on them
but that is not the vote of most riders with whom I ride. This is not
a jihad. There is room for diversity but not a lot for leather saddle
manufacturers.
The ass hatchet epithet comes from the days when most saddles were
leather, and when ridden in the rain, got deep pockets adjacent to a
center ridge. It did not take a great leap of imagination for us as
school kids to come up with that name. The image was compelling.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
fisherman
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:09:09 -0400, Sheldon Brown
<Capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>> Joel P. Klein asked
>>
>> > What happened to the Ideale saddle? It was often offered as an
>> option
>> > to the Brooks line on pro bikes and was considered to be equal in
>> > comfort and quality.
>
>Jobst Brandt sneered:
>
>> That's probably why it is gone. Another ass-hatchet.
>
>Saddle comfort is a very personal thing, and among good saddles, there
>are some people who fit certain types better than others.
>
>Many cyclists, myself included, find leather saddles, such as Brooks and
>Ideale to be more comfortable than plastic saddles, especially in hot
>weather. We find them so comfortable that we are willing to put up with
>the extra weight and the extra care that they require.
Hmmm. Seems to me that the 'ass hatchet' line of reasoning here might
go along with them cool short chainstays, too. They've become
predominant because of their superiority, right? As for those bitchin'
vector treads, and Spinergies, and...
Face it - Brooks and Ideale were _ahead_ of their time, and are
designed for more evolved asses. Jobst was just being a _plain_ ass.
To reply remove 'nospam' from halasz...@sprynet.com
Unsolicited commercial email to my corrected address is
subject to prosecution under 47 USC 227(b)(1).
(FCC board of directors)
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James Quello: jqu...@fcc.gov
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Rachelle Chong: rch...@fcc.gov
Robert Anderson
> The Ideale saddle was SIGNIFICANTLY more comfortable from day one that
> any Brooks I ever rode. But it isn't any more comfortable than the
> newer saddles I use, and it is a half a ton heavier. But anything else
> on my old Moore just wouldn't be right.
>
Doesn't have to be heavier. My daily rider has an Ideale saddle
with alloy rails. Much lighter than a Brooks. It also has the
special Zeus clips for mounting on a Campy seatpost.
Very comfy. Had no seat problems doing Paris-Brest-Paris.
Bob
Joel P. Klein
> What in the world did I start? I just wanted to know if the Ideale Saddle
> Company is still in business. Brooks is and obviously has an almost
> cultish following. My somewhat aged and abused posterior just wouldn't be
> comfortable on anything else.
Sheldon Brown
Although Jobst and I are in agreement on most matters, we come at things
from slightly different angles, and when we differ, it seems to often be
because I tend to come from a more of a touring perspective, and Jobst
from more of a racing direction, viz.:
Jobst Brandt wrote:
> It was Cinelli with the Unica Nitor saddle that displaced leather
> saddles from most bicycles in the 1970's, not Avocet.
This is true of the racing scene, but Avocet was the first non-leather
saddle to acquire any credibility with touring cyclists.
> Avocet took the
> next step by introducing the variable thickness plastic shell that had
>
> thin zones under the contact points of the pelvis. At the same time
> the weight of that plastic shell was reduced, and these advances
> displaced Cinelli as leader in the saddle industry.
I actually rather liked the early (un-padded) Unicas. I used to modify
them a bit, by using a heated spoke to burn bunches of small holes in
the sit-bone area. I did this for flexibility and
breathability...though holes were very fashionable in general in the mid
'70s. I would also roughen up the top with a hacksaw blade to make
them less slippery.
> You may recall the saddle stories of tragedies that occurred in the
> old days, when Brooks, Ideal and others like Pelissier were the
> saddles of the day.
I certainly wouldn't recommend leather saddles for racing cyclists...but
I do recommend them for many recreational, touring and ultramarathon
cyclists
> Riders in the TdF would take their saddles to bed
> with them, because a stolen saddle could end the race for them.
> Riding a new saddle was not possible even for a well trained racer.
Yes, riding the TdF on a new saddle was not possible for anybody. The
break-in problem is much less severe for those who ride under less
strenuous conditions. My wife has Brooks Professionals on both of her
serious bikes. Back in the '70s, a friend gave her one of the new
Avoced woman's models. She tried it, and when questioned, said that she
wasn't sure how much she liked it, 'cause she hadn't ridden more than 50
miles on it, and of course, anygthing is comfortable for 50 miles. She
wound up going back to the Brookses, except that she found the Avocet
was more comfortable while she was pregnant.
> ...When it rained, the saddle changed, so that plastic covers and all
> sorts of liniments were the regimen. As soon as good plastic saddles
> were available, mostriders were glad to rid themselves of this chore.
If you are properly prepared for wet conditions, there is no serious
risk of damage to a leather saddle. The tail of your cape or rain
jacket protects it from falling rain, and your fenders (mudguards)
protect it from spray. (See, there's that difference in orientation
again!)
I think that we can both agree that the more serious problem is the
marshmalloid over-padded saddles that are fobbed of on beginners, who
imagine that softness is the same as comfort.
Sheldon "Leather In Summer, Plastic In Winter" Brown
Newtonville, Massachusetts
+-------------------------------------------------+
| Check out my wife's tale of her experience |
| in the 1975 Paris-Brest-Paris at: |
| http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/fell/PBP1975.html |
+-------------------------------------------------+
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
(617) 244-1040 FAX 244-1041
Ed Chait
Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> Not to worry. I have one B17 left and it is comfortable to ride. I
> keep it that way by not riding it anymore because it might get wet and
> be ruined as were the many Brooks saddles I've had. Today I ride
> saddles that don't change and ride comfortably for me from the moment
> they are installed.
>
As I've mentioned previously, I'm in the habit of going out every few
weekends and searching for bikes in garage sales. The MTB craze has
created a plethora of road bikes for sale at very low cost. Last weekend
I bought an 80's Panasonic for 15 dollars. The frame was huge and not
of any use to me, but it had decent components, so I picked it up.
I got it home and noticed that it had one of those awful add-on gel pads
covering the seat. I removed it expecting to find a cheapo saddle
underneath and was pleasantly surprised to find a Selle Royal. I've
never really experienced a comfortable saddle before riding on this one.
Every saddle I've ridden before this one has been pretty much an
ass-hatchet, regardless of design. I mounted it on one of my road bikes
and when I'm on this saddle, I'm not even aware of it. I don't have to
raise or stand up every few minutes to restore circulation or relieve
discomfort.
It must be an older model, and I'm not sure that it's even produced
anymore, so unfortunately it may be the only saddle that ever fits me
well. Perhaps someone on the NG is more familiar with Selle saddles
than I am, and can advise me on the availability of the Royal, or if
there is another model that comes close to it in design.
> The ass hatchet epithet comes from the days when most saddles were
> leather, and when ridden in the rain, got deep pockets adjacent to a
> center ridge. It did not take a great leap of imagination for us as
> school kids to come up with that name. The image was compelling.
>
Well, there is something romantic about leather saddles, including the
ritual of rubbing them with various liniments and such. The fact that
they are said to improve and change over time is also an attractive
facet as that gives them some character as opposed to a saddle that is
the same from day one. Personally, I would rather purchase a saddle
that requires no breaking in and that is a joy to ride immediately, such
as the Selle that I came across, but if I don't manage to scrounge up
one or two more specimens, I may wind up spending a few bucks down at
Sheldon's shop:).
Ed Chait
Garry Lee
I know of
>no rider who uses leather who does not consider switching to a new
>saddle a major inconvenience.
Well you do now, Jobst!
30 minutes in a bucket of water, go for a ride, broken in. Old army trick.
I do agree with you that they vary from saddle to saddle but there's a
factor you are not considering in your discussion. How you ride.
You climb standing up. That reduces discomfort and allows ass recovery.
Racing cyclists don't sit heavily on their saddles. I raced years ago (I
was useless) and I could tolerate a synthetic saddle) but for touring had
to switch to leather. I mostly sit, climbing, standing up from time to
time.
Jobst Brandt
Charles Maurer writes:
> I tried an Avocet 30(?) touring saddle and found it very comfortable indeed
> for the first 1000km, preferable to my B17, but by 2000km the padding or
> structure had deteriorated so that the B17 was better. I couldn't see
> buying a new saddle every 1500 km so I have stuck with B17s since. Was
> this Avocet anomalous or was I?
I know that Avocet has had various quality control problems and that
some of the gel saddles had their gel sag with age as is usual with
humans. I have seen such lumpy bumps but I ride the R20 gel saddle
that I find was the culmination of this development. The gel allows
lateral squirm and the variable thickness shell gives the cushion.
Sella Italia, with whom this saddle was developed for Avocet now sells
the same model under their label but Lycra and gel are politically
incorrect today so that's the end of that.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Jobst Brandt
Sheldon Brown writes:
>> ...When it rained, the saddle changed, so that plastic covers and all
>> sorts of liniments were the regimen. As soon as good plastic saddles
>> were available, most riders were glad to rid themselves of this chore.
> If you are properly prepared for wet conditions, there is no serious
> risk of damage to a leather saddle. The tail of your cape or rain
> jacket protects it from falling rain, and your fenders (mudguards)
> protect it from spray. (See, there's that difference in orientation
> again!)
When it rains and I wear my rain cape, both sweat and water run into
my saddle contact. I have never seen a rider climb and descent
mountain passes in the rain without a soaked bottom side and saddle.
In spite of what it may appear to be, my riding is entirely touring.
I have not yet posted this year's tour of the alps, but several others
can be found at the bottom of the following page:
http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Switzerland/
> I think that we can both agree that the more serious problem is the
> marshmalloid over-padded saddles that are fobbed of on beginners, who
> imagine that softness is the same as comfort.
The problem is that a beginner, be he an experienced rider who was
unable to ride for a few weeks or one who hasn't ever ridden much,
will get a sore bottom on any saddle. If he complains, he is directed
toward a poopoo pillow saddle that, although not having the pressure
points that caused the original discomfort, will compress muscle
tissue that causes a huge charlie horse. Of course that's why such
saddles are not used by people who ride bikes but they are requested
by many beginners with whom most bike shops don't care to argue.
The non regular bike rider cannot asses whether a saddle is good or
not, because he cannot make use of a good saddle, having nothing under
his pelvis with which to sit. That is something a rider must take on
faith from a good bike shop, and ride until his bottom acclimates. I
recall on occasions when I had a broken leg or sprained ankle how
getting back on my "comfortable" saddle was uncomfortable for about a
week, but I knew where this would lead in a short time. The beginner
doesn't and may not be interested in riding that far.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Robert Perkins
Can't we all just get along?
If one decides to ride a heavy leather saddle, like me,
then you can keep it dry by riding with fenders and
a Selle San Marco waterproof saddle cover. I personally
like it, is that okay?
When I ride in group rides, I replace the Brooks Pro/
Carradice saddlebag combination with a Turbomatic II
plastic saddle which is also quite comfy. Ullrich
rode this saddle through the TdF, as did many pros,
despite it being a "basic" racing saddle these days.
I just keep two saddles/seatpost combinations around;
switching takes 20 seconds.
Robert Perkins
The funniest thing about this discussion is that the ONLY
ASS HATCHET I ever rode was a gel saddle, where the
gel displaced and I endured the most painful 75 miles of my
life riding on plastic edges. I can't remember, but I think
it was an Avocet... Rob rperkin...@nortel.com
Jobst Brandt
Robert Perkins writes:
> The funniest thing about this discussion is that the ONLY ASS
> HATCHET I ever rode was a gel saddle, where the gel displaced and I
> endured the most painful 75 miles of my life riding on plastic
> edges. I can't remember, but I think it was an Avocet...
I don't see how the displaced gel exposed a ridge down the middle or
an edge that cut into your bottom. because the plastic shell of an
Avocet is the same as the non gel saddles with a contour that was also
offered with no padding. Where were the "edges"? I think you are
being careless in your critique when you can't remember whose saddle
you were riding after remembering the details of the event so vividly.
If you don't know whether it was an Avocet, how do you know it was a
gel saddle? Was this your bicycle and did you buy the saddle?
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Jack Sofsky
I vividly recall trying out a gel saddle covering about a decade ago.
It was fine on my ischiium, but when riding, the gel forced it's way
up in-between my buttocks and abraded my much more sensitive/fragile
perianal tissue...I've always used hard saddles since.
Jack Sofsky
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in article
<5uih6g$o...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>...
Charles Maurer
In article <5ufe1u$1...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>, jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst
Brandt) wrote:
> Charles Maurer writes:
>
> > I tried an Avocet 30(?) touring saddle and found it very comfortable indeed
> > for the first 1000km, preferable to my B17, but by 2000km the padding or
> > structure had deteriorated so that the B17 was better. I couldn't see
> > buying a new saddle every 1500 km so I have stuck with B17s since. Was
> > this Avocet anomolous or was I?
>
> I know that Avocet has had various quality control problems and that
> some of the gel saddles had their gel sag with age as is usual with
> humans. I have seen such lumpy bumps but I ride the R20 gel saddle
> that I find was the culmination of this development. The gel allows
> lateral squirm and the variable thickness shell gives the cushion.
>
> Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
I can't remember the exact year my wife and I tried Avocets but it was the
same year that Shimano first introduced SPD pedals. Has Avocet's quality
control improved enough to warrant trying one again?
> Lycra and gel are politically
> incorrect today so that's the end of that.
Don't understand either half of this sentence. Am I missing something by
not reading bicycling magazines?
--
Charles Maurer
5 Grandview Court
Dundas, ON L9H 5C8
Canada
telephone & fax: 905.627.7035
Robert Perkins
Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> Robert Perkins writes:
>
> > The funniest thing about this discussion is that the ONLY ASS
> > HATCHET I ever rode was a gel saddle, where the gel displaced and I
> > endured the most painful 75 miles of my life riding on plastic
> > edges. I can't remember, but I think it was an Avocet...
>
> I don't see how the displaced gel exposed a ridge down the middle or
> an edge that cut into your bottom. because the plastic shell of an
> Avocet is the same as the non gel saddles with a contour that was also
> offered with no padding. Where were the "edges"? I think you are
> being careless in your critique when you can't remember whose saddle
> you were riding after remembering the details of the event so vividly.
> If you don't know whether it was an Avocet, how do you know it was a
> gel saddle? Was this your bicycle and did you buy the saddle?
>
> Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Upon futher reflection, I can state that the model was a
Vetta Gel saddle that came on my first adult bike, a Nishiki
Prestige (Tange #2 frame). It seems like the gel would
get displaced from two depressions within the saddle which
were placed on the contact points for pubic bones. The edges
of the depressions would cut into my ass by each pubic
bone. I ditched that saddle after the gel displaced;
About a year later I rode 75 miles on a borrowed tandem with
an equally crappy specimen of aforementioned
Vetta gel saddle a year after I ditched
the first saddle, and only realized it was the same saddle
after a familiar ouch reappeared.
So, the edges come from the depressions within the saddle
shell. And please forgive me if my critique was not up to
the usual rigors of scientific discussions, but I can categorically
state that:
a. My ass hurt like with no other saddle
b. It was a gel saddle, two examples of 1 Vetta model
"Is rec.bike.tech like a dog pack with a dominant male policing
the behavior of others?"
Rob
Marc Brandt
Hey Robert,
I'll tell you about an "ass hatchet". That was the seat on my Schwinn
Racer. A hard naugahide over.... steel! The little springs were nice
but after ten miles so what.
I ride on gel and I like it. I think Cool Gear may have made some
crappy gel saddles, and there's all the knock-offs of Avocet.
I've had my problems with products but I think the Avocet saddles are
OK, that's what I ride. I also have an '80's Cinelli on a Moulton
(suspension). Frankly, when one is in shape one can ride on about
anything. The shorts are the most important part of a decent time in
the saddle.
Ed Chait
Rick Denney wrote:
>
> "Selle" is just Italian for saddle. All the Italian companies start
> with that word (e.g. Selle Royale, Selle San Marco, Selle Italia,
> etc.). Which model of Selle Royale saddle did you find? I'm always
> interested in who thinks which saddle is comfortable, and why.
>
I wish you had posted that before I e-mailed the wrong company to praise
them in regards to their "Royal" model and ask advice. No wonder they
haven't written back:). Duh!
The Selle Royal that I found has no other identifying writing on it
besides the "Selle Royal" and "Made in Italy" on the back. I couldn't
find any model name or number on it anywhere.
It is by far the most comfortable saddle that I've ever ridden. I think
there are several reasons for this. It's a leather cover over foam.
The foam is different than on other saddles I've ridden, it's much
denser and deforms just enough to provide some cushioning, but not so
much that it compresses and becomes hard. The leather cover makes it
easy to change positions as it is easy to slide around on. The saddle
is a little wider in back than other saddles of this type that I've
ridden, and the two areas in back with the most padding are exactly
where my particular "sit bones" can take advantage of them.
I work in medical imaging and I've seen the incredible amount of
variation in anatomy from person to person. We're just as individual on
the inside as we are on the outside. Even in bony tissue, where you
might expect there to be less variance, tremendous variance exists, and
not just in size but in shape.
I think the quality of the foam in this saddle is excellent, but it also
happens to fit me perfectly.
Ed Chait
Tom Parker
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Jobst Brandt wrote: and
Sheldon Brown wrote: and
many others have written.
But not one has answered the question.
Where did all the comfortable saddles go?
The answer is.... Pearl Izumi stopped making them-period!
Now lets end this thread and talk about the Inter Bike show that's going
on this weekend.
--
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<P>Jobst Brandt wrote: and
<BR>Sheldon Brown wrote: and
<BR>many others have written.
<BR>But not one has answered the question.
<BR>
<BR><B>
Where did all the comfortable saddles go?</B><B></B>
<P><B> The answer is.... Pearl
Izumi stopped making them-period!</B>
<BR>Now lets end this thread and talk about the Inter Bike show that's
going on this weekend.
<BR>--
<BR>
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Hugh Enox
In article <34116E7D...@lafn.org>, Tom Parker <au...@lafn.org> wrote:
> Jobst Brandt wrote: and
> Sheldon Brown wrote: and
> many others have written.
> But not one has answered the question.
>
> Where did all the comfortable saddles go?
>
> The answer is.... Pearl Izumi stopped making them-period!
> Now lets end this thread and talk about the Inter Bike show that's going
> on this weekend.
When you say Pearl Izumi, are you possibly referring to the successor to
the Jacobs Cool Gear saddle that used a thixotropic liquid encapsulated in
a vinyl bladder? If so, this is the "Waveflow" saddle which is or was made
by Alden Labs, the current patent rights holder for Jacob's original
concept. The idea here is for the unit pressure to be lowered by
maximizing contact area by the flow of the thixotropic liquid.
Hugh