TUBES, do they make a difference?
Garrison Hilliard
>>I think you should read the Michelin Ultralight Tube Failures messages.
>>Tubes
>>do vary greatly in quality, though, as I said in my earlier post here, brand
>>name is not a very reliable guide.
>>
>>Ray
>>
>
>They might. I have never found that flats were the result of poor quality
>tubes.
You mean you've never had a flat due to a leaky valve stem? That's an
inner tube problem, you know.
Jon Isaacs
>inner tube problem, you know.
>
I would say not. I have had at least 100 flats in the last 10 years and I
spend the time to track them down, otherwise replacing the tube likely result
in another flat. My flats are of three basic types. Road debris, snake bite
and bad rim tape. I pump my tires at least once a week. I replace the tubes
with new ones, I rarely patch them.
I also deal with a reputable bike shop who stands behind their product and give
decent prices.
Tube technology is not all that sophisticated. Schaeder valves must be one of
the most commonly made items in the world and presta valves are pretty common.
This is not rocket science.
Jon Isaacs
Jon Isaacs
Jobst Brandt
>> You mean you've never had a flat due to a leaky valve stem? That's
>> an inner tube problem, you know.
> I would say not.
What was not apparent until the last line is that you are riding
Schrader valves that have fat rubber coated stems, something that is
not structurally reasonable for a high performance road rim. Tubes
with presta valves stem separation problems.
> I have had at least 100 flats in the last 10 years and I spend the
> time to track them down, otherwise replacing the tube likely result
> in another flat. My flats are of three basic types. Road debris,
> snake bite and bad rim tape. I pump my tires at least once a week.
That does not rule out flaws in tubes, especially ones that are not
thick, ones that you seem to use if you need to pump the tires as
often as you say.
> I replace the tubes with new ones, I rarely patch them.
What have you got against patching? It seems you either have not had
favorable success with patching or don't carry a patch kit.
Suffering more than a couple of punctures on a single ride is a
possibility. I doubt you carry several new tubes on a ride. I think
you could do well with some tire patching practice. The FAQ has some
information on the subject that might be beneficial.
> I also deal with a reputable bike shop who stands behind their
> product and give decent prices.
How do you know. From what you say, your assessment of bicycles and
the bicycle business could be a bit off the norm. And what does this
have to do with the frailty of light weight inner tubes?
> Tube technology is not all that sophisticated. Schaeder valves must
> be one of the most commonly made items in the world and presta
> valves are pretty common. This is not rocket science.
Neither is patching a tube but it seems to exceed your perception of
the problem. The "rocket science" metaphor is a bit old and out of
place. You might consider "wafer technology" as a good substitute.
By the way, they are known as "Schrader valves".
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Jon Isaacs
>Schrader valves that have fat rubber coated stems, something that is
>not structurally reasonable for a high performance road rim. Tubes
>with presta valves stem separation problems.
Wrong. Presta all the way on the road, Schrader for the dirt.
>That does not rule out flaws in tubes, especially ones that are not
>thick, ones that you seem to use if you need to pump the tires as
>often as you say.
I pump them that often because my rule of thumb is this: The first time I ride
any bike in a given week, I pump the tires. That way I know that I am riding
on tires that have enough air in them. Since I have several bikes this is the
best way to be sure.
>What have you got against patching? It seems you either have not had
>favorable success with patching or don't carry a patch kit.
>Suffering more than a couple of punctures on a single ride is a
>possibility. I doubt you carry several new tubes on a ride.
I guess you do not think 4 tubes is sufficient. Tubes are not expensive. The
most expensive tubes I use are Torrelli's long stem tubes for 650c aerorims and
they are about $6. I prefer to spend the few dollars on a new tube rather than
take the time to patch the tube on the road.
> I think
>you could do well with some tire patching practice.
The fact that I prefer to carry new tubes and replace them is a question of
time. I have patched more than a few tubes in my career, though not bicycle
tubes.
The original point of this thread a question regarding the difference in the
durability of expensive tubes and inexpensive tubes. I have done no
statistical analysis of tube failures, only my personal experience which I have
shared. It has been my experience that inexpensive tubes are adequate. That
is my only point.
Jon Isaacs
Jobst Brandt
>> What was not apparent until the last line is that you are riding
>> Schrader valves that have fat rubber coated stems, something that
>> is not structurally reasonable for a high performance road rim.
>> Tubes with presta valves stem separation problems.
> Wrong. Presta all the way on the road, Schrader for the dirt.
Well either you do or you don't and if you have so many bicycles that
you can't keep track of when you ride them, I don't see how you can
say that stems do not separate.
>> That does not rule out flaws in tubes, especially ones that are not
>> thick, ones that you seem to use if you need to pump the tires as
>> often as you say.
> I pump them that often because my rule of thumb is this: The first
> time I ride any bike in a given week, I pump the tires. That way I
> know that I am riding on tires that have enough air in them. Since
> I have several bikes this is the best way to be sure.
It's good to develop a good thumb for this. Either that or bounce the
bicycle on the front and rear tire for a good response as you head out
of the house. Of course with knobbies, bouncing doesn't tell much.
>> What have you got against patching? It seems you either have not
>> had favorable success with patching or don't carry a patch kit.
>> Suffering more than a couple of punctures on a single ride is a
>> possibility. I doubt you carry several new tubes on a ride.
> I guess you do not think 4 tubes is sufficient. Tubes are not
> expensive. The most expensive tubes I use are Torrelli's long stem
> tubes for 650c aerorims and they are about $6. I prefer to spend
> the few dollars on a new tube rather than take the time to patch the
> tube on the road.
So what do you do with the punctured tubes when you get home, or are
you one of the guys who leaves them on the road for others to pick up
and dispose. I see such tubes on the road on my way to work and
wonder what moves people to do this. These tubes often have no more
than a thorn hole.
>> I think you could do well with some tire patching practice.
> The fact that I prefer to carry new tubes and replace them is a
> question of time. I have patched more than a few tubes in my
> career, though not bicycle tubes.
There is something about throwing away a tube with a tiny blemish that
I believe is an unnecessary waste of resources. To say that your time
is too valuable to patch makes bicycling seem unduly important.
Besides, throwing out $5 with every flat reminds me of stories we made
up as children about the rich and famous who had a servant follow with
spare bicycles on bike rides and, in the event of a flat, would change
bicycles and throw the other away.
> The original point of this thread a question regarding the
> difference in the durability of expensive tubes and inexpensive
> tubes. I have done no statistical analysis of tube failures, only
> my personal experience which I have shared. It has been my
> experience that inexpensive tubes are adequate. That is my only
> point.
In making that point you could just as well have said that you choose
to use expensive tubes and left the occurrence of stem separation and
manufacturing flaws to those who have experienced them. Your comments
implied that the mentioned flaws would not occur if one were to follow
your example. I don't agree and think that some day you will discover
one of your flats, that you don't fix, was caused by the type of leak
that others experience.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Bruce Jackson
Jon Isaacs <joni...@aol.com> wrote:
> I guess you do not think 4 tubes is sufficient. Tubes are not
> expensive. The most expensive tubes I use are Torrelli's long stem
> tubes for 650c aerorims and they are about $6.
Four tubes? I'm impressed that you carry this many tubes on a ride.
I must admit that in all my years of cycling I've never had more than
one flat on a ride, knock wood. I suspect that I'm way ahead of the
odds here. I typically carry one tube and a patch kit just in case
I have the bad luck of multiple punctures on a ride.
> I prefer to spend the few dollars on a new tube rather than take the
> time to patch the tube on the road.
Than patch the tubes at home, not on the road. Take the tube home
and patch it there at your convince. One of the bike shops I worked
at did patch tubes to repair flats as a more economical alternative to
replacing the tube. Patching hundreds of tubes at work and scores of
my own tubes I found failures extremely rare. I like the REMA patches
and unless there are other issues I consider a patched tube to be just
as dependable as a new one.
If your time is so precious that you can't afford to take a few
minutes to repair your tubes than more power to you. The years I
worked in bike shops I would even scavenge tubes from repairs and
patch them for my own use. When you are a $6/hour bike mechanic
saving a few bucks here and there adds up. I must admit that after
I got my first "real job" I quit repairing cheap sewups but I do still
patch clincher tubes.
--
Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - The M/A/R/C Group
b.a.j...@ieee.org
Jon Isaacs
>you can't keep track of when you ride them, I don't see how you can
>say that stems do not separate.
Well at this time I have about 13, mostly road but with several extra sets of
wheels.
Regarding separation, it is not something that seems to happen to me, possibly
because I replace my tubes more often than some people(by attrition.)
>It's good to develop a good thumb for this. Either that or bounce the
>bicycle on the front and rear tire for a good response as you head out
>of the house.
I pinch the tires and bounce them before each ride but pump them regularly.
>So what do you do with the punctured tubes when you get home, or are
>you one of the guys who leaves them on the road for others to pick up
>and dispose.
No need to assume I am a litter bug. I pack the tire under the leg in my
shorts and then either throw them in the trash or give them to someone who does
repair tubes.
>Besides, throwing out $5 with every flat reminds me of ...
Well I get my tubes at a good price, usually cost plus 10 so that $5 is what I
pay for 2 tubes. I justify my lack of "greenness" by the amount of gasoline
that I do not use.
>Your comments
>implied that the mentioned flaws would not occur if one were to follow
>your example. I don't agree and think that some day you will discover
>one of your flats, that you don't fix, was caused by the type of leak
>that others experience.
>
I believe I made it clear that this was my experience. I am sure I will have
types of failures that I have not experienced before at some time. I think
that the more frequent tube replacement which results from replacing tubes
rather than patching them significantly reduces the length of time a tube is
exposed to the elements. It is my guess that this is likely to prevent
failures such as valve stem separations.
Jon Isaacs
Jon Isaacs
>I must admit that in all my years of cycling I've never had more than
>one flat on a ride, knock wood. I suspect that I'm way ahead of the
>odds here. I typically carry one tube and a patch kit just in case
>I have the bad luck of multiple punctures on a ride.
I have on occasion suffered 2 punctures from the same object. Not paying
attention etc. Steel strapping used for shipping is not a good thing. Also
the dreaded goathead thorns can finish off your tubes in a hurry.
However, one reason I carry 4 tubes is that if I find a rider with a flat and
no tube or patch kit, I will give them a tube or whatever they need with the
suggestion that they carry extra tubes and give them away as needed.
As far as patching tubes goes, it is something I prefer not to do. At one time
I made my living my clearing brush and such with a small tractor. Flats were
a common thing and I repaired many of them in the field in the dirt, dust and
sometimes oil and grime. I believe I have repaired my share of tubes and for
the small cost of a new tube, I am willing to donate a punctured tube to
someone who will use it.
Jon Isaacs
Eric Salathe
> There is something about throwing away a tube with a tiny blemish that
> I believe is an unnecessary waste of resources.
Hear hear!
Regarding (presta) valve separation, do you think this is soley a matter
of manufacturing flaws or related to rim heat conducting to the stem? I
have had this happen significantly more often on our tandem than on my
single bike, and usually the failure comes after mountainous riding.
Although we do have a drum brake, sometimes it's hard to resist high
speeds and hard braking into corners, for which I prefer the front rim
brake.
Eric Salathe
Jobst Brandt
> Regarding (presta) valve separation, do you think this is soley a
> matter of manufacturing flaws or related to rim heat conducting to
> the stem? I have had this happen significantly more often on our
> tandem than on my single bike, and usually the failure comes after
> mountainous riding. Although we do have a drum brake, sometimes
> it's hard to resist high speeds and hard braking into corners, for
> which I prefer the front rim brake.
It might be, but the temperatures are low for rubber processing. As I
have pointed out, I use old tubular stems that are screwed in to
repair these failures. The do not fail again. Just slip a stem from
a latex tubular into the hole and tighten the retaining nut. That's it!
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>