Tire Making, episode four
DougC
These are a genuine vintage style, but not a proper reproduction because
they are made in the modern 26"-decmial/559mm size. They appear to be
out of production for a few years now and what's still available is
being sold off as NOS:
(one example listing)
http://www.bikemania.biz/B_F_Goodrich_Red_Bicycle_Tire_26X2_125_p/coker_bfgred26x2.125.htm
-or Tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/ycewgeh
These tires appear about the same color as the Salmon Kool-Stop pads,
and it's commonly noted that the red ingredient in the Kool-Stops is
iron oxide.
This lead me to wonder what was the red ingredient originally used, and
what was its purpose? I have found at least one instance where the
ingredient was originally iron oxide, but this particular passage does
not state what the purpose of adding it was:
(second-last paragraph on the bottom of page 112)
http://books.google.com/books?id=7aI7AAAAMAAJ&dq=pneumatic%20tires%20henry%20pearson&pg=PA112#v=onepage&q=&f=false
-or Tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/ybzgbtk
-Where it is noted that the red ingredient is "red oxide of iron".
One of the more-common brands of red tires of the era were Fisk red-top
(car) tires-
http://oldadvertising.blogspot.com/2009/10/fisk-red-top-tires-1917.html
-or Tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/yz4a99n
-but so far I have not ever found any description of what the purpose of
the red coloring on Fisk tires really was.
Natural rubber benefited greatly from colorants that added protection
from UV/sunlight damage, but this book only notes them as a consequence
of mineral rubber fillers that were necessary to improve the mechanical
wear characteristics of the tread rubber:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7aI7AAAAMAAJ&dq=pneumatic%20tires%20henry%20pearson&pg=PA103#v=snippet&q=white%20&f=false
-or Tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/yd9zcg5
--------
Also interesting is that a more-modern web page elsewhere explains that
zinc oxide is used as a vulcanizing accellerant, but the first line of
that same paragraph (mentioned previously) notes that white rubber
contains zinc oxide as a coloring agent.
I have forgotten too much of my chemistry to know which is true, or if
both are. I can't find iron oxide mentioned in the section on
vulcanizing rubber cements.
--------
Also regarding the terms "carcass" and "casing": this book (1922) seems
to use both interchangeably. If you search for either you find numerous
examples with no clear different circumstance, and so far I haven't
found any glossary or definitions in the book.
~
Jobst Brandt
> I noticed that B. F. Goodrich used to make some red vintage-style
> tires. These are a genuine vintage style, but not a proper
> reproduction because they are made in the modern 26"-decimal/559mm
> size. They appear to be out of production for a few years now and
> what's still available is being sold off as NOS:
> (one example listing)
> These tires appear about the same color as the Salmon Kool-Stop
> pads, and it's commonly noted that the red ingredient in the
> Kool-Stops is iron oxide.
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
> This lead me to wonder what was the red ingredient originally used,
> and what was its purpose? I have found at least one instance where
> the ingredient was originally iron oxide, but this particular
> passage does not state what the purpose of adding it was:
> (second-last paragraph on the bottom of page 112)
> -Where it is noted that the red ingredient is "red oxide of iron".
> One of the more-common brands of red tires of the era were Fisk
> red-top (car) tires:
> -but so far I have not ever found any description of what the
> purpose of the red coloring on Fisk tires really was.
> Natural rubber benefited greatly from colorants that added
> protection from UV/sunlight damage, but this book only notes them as
> a consequence of mineral rubber fillers that were necessary to
> improve the mechanical wear characteristics of the tread rubber:
> Also interesting is that a more-modern web page elsewhere explains
> that zinc oxide is used as a vulcanizing accellerant, but the first
> line of that same paragraph (mentioned previously) notes that white
> rubber contains zinc oxide as a coloring agent.
> I have forgotten too much of my chemistry to know which is true, or
> if both are. I can't find iron oxide mentioned in the section on
> vulcanizing rubber cements.
> Also regarding the terms "carcass" and "casing": this book (1922)
> seems to use both interchangeably. If you search for either you
> find numerous examples with no clear different circumstance, and so
> far I haven't found any glossary or definitions in the book. ~
Let's not get too far from practical. Black tires were first
discovered when burnt charcoal got mixed with tires, long ago, to
produce a longer lasting better tracking tire. We've had that subject
well worked over a few years ago here.
Jobst Brandt
Chalo
>
> Let's not get too far from practical. Black tires were first
> discovered when burnt charcoal got mixed with tires, long ago, to
> produce a longer lasting better tracking tire. We've had that subject
> well worked over a few years ago here.
DougC is trying to make high fidelity vintage reproduction tires.
Current day best practice doesn't really matter for the purposes of
his particular exercise.
Chalo
thirty-six
> I noticed that B. F. Goodrich used to make some red vintage-style tires.
> These are a genuine vintage style, but not a proper reproduction because
> they are made in the modern 26"-decmial/559mm size. They appear to be
> out of production for a few years now and what's still available is
> being sold off as NOS:
> -or Tiny-http://tinyurl.com/ycewgeh
>
> These tires appear about the same color as the Salmon Kool-Stop pads,
> and it's commonly noted that the red ingredient in the Kool-Stops is
> iron oxide.
>
> This lead me to wonder what was the red ingredient originally used, and
> what was its purpose? I have found at least one instance where the
> ingredient was originally iron oxide, but this particular passage does
> not state what the purpose of adding it was:
> -or Tiny-http://tinyurl.com/ybzgbtk
>
> -Where it is noted that the red ingredient is "red oxide of iron".
>
> One of the more-common brands of red tires of the era were Fisk red-top
> (car) tires-http://oldadvertising.blogspot.com/2009/10/fisk-red-top-tires-1917.html
>
> -but so far I have not ever found any description of what the purpose of
> the red coloring on Fisk tires really was.
>
> Natural rubber benefited greatly from colorants that added protection
> from UV/sunlight damage, but this book only notes them as a consequence
> of mineral rubber fillers that were necessary to improve the mechanical
> -or Tiny-http://tinyurl.com/yd9zcg5
>
> --------
>
> Also interesting is that a more-modern web page elsewhere explains that
> zinc oxide is used as a vulcanizing accellerant, but the first line of
> that same paragraph (mentioned previously) notes that white rubber
> contains zinc oxide as a coloring agent.
>
> I have forgotten too much of my chemistry to know which is true, or if
> both are. I can't find iron oxide mentioned in the section on
> vulcanizing rubber cements.
>
> --------
>
> Also regarding the terms "carcass" and "casing": this book (1922) seems
> to use both interchangeably. If you search for either you find numerous
> examples with no clear different circumstance, and so far I haven't
> found any glossary or definitions in the book.
> ~
The zinc does colour the tyre white and as zinc oxide is an accelerant
for vulcanisation, probably essential, perhaps you will find
information if you search for white strips, the very thin treads
applied to track tyres for record attempts. I think the iron oxide is
also an alternative aid to polymerisation of the rubber. Also to note
is that clay, chalk and linseed oil were also used as tyre rubber
ingredients. Latex being expensive, I guess all manner of ingredients
were used as fillers to help stabilise the rubber (acceptable tyre
life) and reduce costs.
bfd
> I noticed that B. F. Goodrich used to make some red vintage-style tires.
> These are a genuine vintage style, but not a proper reproduction because
> they are made in the modern 26"-decmial/559mm size. They appear to be
> out of production for a few years now and what's still available is
> being sold off as NOS:
> -or Tiny-http://tinyurl.com/ycewgeh
>
> These tires appear about the same color as the Salmon Kool-Stop pads,
> and it's commonly noted that the red ingredient in the Kool-Stops is
> iron oxide.
>
Quarterly sells his Grand Bois Hetre tires in red:
http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/images/Hetre.JPG
The 584mm (650b) x 42mm tire is highly rated by the 650b crowd! Then
again, at $62 per tire it better be good!
F
TT
And they're still ugly and eventually turn black from dirt anyways.
Remember the auto tire company that made tires years ago with colored
racing stripes down the center? No? Neither does anyone else.
I always have a chuckle when I see someone rolling white tires on a
bike, seems so ridiculous.
Kerry Montgomery
You want ridiculous? We've got ridiculous:
http://www.autoblog.com/2005/11/06/kumho-ecsta-mx-c-colored-smoke-tires-and-herbal-scented/
Kerry
bfd
http://abc.eznettools.net/adaptivestrategies/BFGoodrich.html
I believe these were only around for a couple of years before being
discontinued. Apparently, the "ricers" didn't like them, so there was
no market. Good Luck!
thirty-six
> Kerry
I thought the idea of a burnout was so that damaged tyres could not be
raced. A legal method of destroying an unsafe tyre. That is
ridiculous. Wrapping on a tape containing the colourant and odour for
burnout displays would be appropriate.
thirty-six
Saw them in a tyre shop and wondered, for about ten seconds, then
forgot about them. Is the band supposed to identify the temperature
rating in racing use?
DougC
> ......
> That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
> well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
> tires in any other color than black. White knobby tires on children's
> bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
> standard of fashion for the little tykes.
No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve
its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in
order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon
black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at
the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another.
Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead? Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and
wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. <?:|
?
~
thirty-six
> On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> > ......
> > That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
> > well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
> > tires in any other color than black. White knobby tires on children's
> > bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
> > standard of fashion for the little tykes.
> > ......
>
> No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
> traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive, fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.
>
> The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve
> its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in
> order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon
> black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at
> the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another.
as does zinc oxide.
>
> Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
> would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
> black instead?
Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.
> Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and
> wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. <?:|
>
> ?
Who wants to buy a car with four corners of rust?
carl...@comcast.net
> On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> > ......
> > That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
> > well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
> > tires in any other color than black. White knobby tires on children's
> > bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
> > standard of fashion for the little tykes.
> > ......
>
> No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
> traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
Dear Doug,
The combination of carbon black and natural rubber was known to have
poorer wet grip than more modern compounds at least as far back as
1985:
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Chalo
>
> DougC wrote:
> >
> > No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
> > traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
>
> Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
> better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used
> because raw latex was and is expensive,
drugs
> fillers also not only reduce
> cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
> to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not
> provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.
Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber,
track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they
don't.
> > Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
> > would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
> > black instead?
>
> Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
> revenue from replacements.
Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.
Chalo
thirty-six
wrote:
and those compounds which are successful in improving wet grip also
result in greater rolling resistance, so the tread has to be made
thinner to compensate.
Jobst Brandt
>> ... That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet
>> traction is well known and the reason why you don't see high
>> performance auto tires in any other color than black. White knobby
>> tires on children's bicycles don't wear long or corner well
>> anywhere, but they are a standard of fashion for the little tykes.
>> ...
> No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
> traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
The details of it escape me now but I recall a few years ago when
Specialized supplied the US 7-11 Racing team in Europe with "Umma
Gumma" non black tires with which they had so many crashes in the wet
that they switched back to their previous black tires. The issue was
discussed at length in the news that we read in wreck.bike. I found
it interesting and assumed the issue was adequately explained.
You must have noticed that no high performance tire is without carbon
black, for motor vehicles or bicycles although colored tires are seen
on bicycles where hard cornering in the rain is not a standard
procedure. That is why the advertising picture:
and one in the rain at Emerald Bay Lake Tahoe were made.
> The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and
> improve its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed
> colorants in order to try to help protect it from UV damage from
> sunlight. Carbon black is one of a very-few fillers that can
> effectively do both jobs at the same time--but then, iron oxide
> seemed to be another.
> Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why
> else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and
> not carbon black instead? Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good
> reputation far and wide, yet we see no red-colored modern
> performance car tires. <?:|
I think this explanation needs some reference report as well, it
conflicting with the information I have read in the past on this issue
that included an article about how carbon black became introduced to
tire making in the first place. I was satisfied the issue had been
discussed adequately at the time.
Jobst Brandt
thirty-six
you forgot to mention:
Aluminum nipples
Drag of aero wheels
Avocet dirt tires
Bias ply
Blowouts
Flat tires
Glass punctures
Inflation constriction force
Inner tube evacuation
Inner tube patching
Inner tube ridges
Inner tube stem fail
Inner tubes
Kevlar
Machine-built wheels
Nipple failure
Overly swaged spokes
Paired spokes
Presta valves
Pretzeled rims
Rim compatibility
Rim bending
Rim cracking
Rim heat
Rim noise
Rim tape / rim strips
Rim wear
Rims
Rolling resistance
Rotating mass
Slicks
Spinergy
Spoke count
Spoke lube
Spoke reuse
Spoke tightening
Spoke tone when plucked
Spoke twist
Spokes
Stress relieving wheels
Tensiometers
Tire aging
Tire boots
Tire braid angle
Tire color Tire cords
Tire directional tread
Tire sealants
Tire makers
Tire pressure
Tire recommendation
Tire roll-off
Tire talc
Tire wear
Track glue
Truing
Truing stands
Tubular making
Tubulars
Tying-and-soldering
Wet brakes
Wheel balancing
Wheel building
Wheel drag
Wheel longevity
Wheel side force
Wheel size
Wheel stresses
or dark glasses. what about black ties?
AMuzi
I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1
and #2 pista tubs were offered in white latex tread on open
silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were
available to us.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
thirty-six
White strips? Latex is generally clear or nearly so in thin
sections.
Jobst Brandt
>>>> No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
>>>> traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
>>> Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres
>>> grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to
>>> be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also
>>> not only reduce cost but stabilize the rubber product against
>>> stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the
>>> latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or
>>> economical wear rate.
>> Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled
>> rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires.
>> But they don't.
>>>> Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does;
>>>> why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads,
>>>> and not carbon black instead?
>>> Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide
>>> steady revenue from replacements.
>> Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my
>> observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
>> pads.
> I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1 and #2
> "pista" tubs were offered in white latex tread on open silk casings.
> Sold and performed well when they were available to us.
Track tires of that type were made for minimum RR rather than
cornering. You may have noticed that tracks are banked so that
cornering is not one of the skills required, wet or dry. The curve
banking requiring a minimum speed to keep the pedal from grounding,
keeping the lean angle within the ability of a latex tread. Those
latex tread track tires were miserable on roads because they wore out
in a hurry and didn't corner on wet roads worth considering.
Jobst Brandt
AMuzi
Much agreed.
I seem to be short of clarity this week, I was responding to
Chalo's comment:
"... If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled
rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex
tires. But they don't."
Well, they 'did'. Now they 'cannot'. So 'they don't' lacks
much meaning.
thirty-six
Which will be their ultra thin tread, latex would suit so as to
generate some heat in such a thin tread.
> You may have noticed that tracks are banked so that
> cornering is not one of the skills required, wet or dry. The curve
> banking requiring a minimum speed to keep the pedal from grounding,
> keeping the lean angle within the ability of a latex tread. Those
> latex tread track tires were miserable on roads because they wore out
> in a hurry and didn't corner on wet roads worth considering.
That will be because of their narrow section and extreme pressure to
prevent road bumping shortens the contact patch so as to reduce
available cornering force. This occurs with all narrow section tyres
taken to extreme pressure. With a more normal section width the tyre
contact patch can be twice as long as a 3/4" tyre on the same wheel
rim.