Bright lights
Ryan Cousineau
technology that's all the rage among the cool kids these days.
Ahem.
After a lot of hemming and hawing, I've taken the plunge with some
friends and ordered a whole bunch of flashlights with SSC P7-C emitters.
Lighting nerds will recognize this as Seoul Semiconductors latest and
greatest commodity emitter. It can produce up to 900 lumens when running
at max rated voltage (4.2V). In this application, it is powered by a
rechargeable lithium battery.
The not-secret is that these flashlights are well ahead of the
bike-specific lighting market, and you can buy bike mounts. If anyone
wants to reproduce my setup, here's what we ordered:
Flashlight:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15691
Batteries:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5790
Charger:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6105
Cheesy plastic bike mount:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15642
No particular endorsement of DealExtreme intended here: they had this
stuff, the prices were good, and about five of us saved a small amount
by grouping an order and using their BULKRATE code.
This is mostly a preview post. I promise to have something to say about
the lights once I have them in hand.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
landotter
> So, I don't know if you've heard, but apparently there's this new "LED"
> technology that's all the rage among the cool kids these days.
>
> Ahem.
>
> After a lot of hemming and hawing, I've taken the plunge with some
> friends and ordered a whole bunch of flashlights with SSC P7-C emitters.
> Lighting nerds will recognize this as Seoul Semiconductors latest and
> greatest commodity emitter. It can produce up to 900 lumens when running
> at max rated voltage (4.2V). In this application, it is powered by a
> rechargeable lithium battery.
>
> The not-secret is that these flashlights are well ahead of the
> bike-specific lighting market, and you can buy bike mounts. If anyone
> wants to reproduce my setup, here's what we ordered:
>
> Flashlight:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15691
>
> Batteries:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5790
>
> Charger:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6105
>
> Cheesy plastic bike mount:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15642
>
> No particular endorsement of DealExtreme intended here: they had this
> stuff, the prices were good, and about five of us saved a small amount
> by grouping an order and using their BULKRATE code.
>
> This is mostly a preview post. I promise to have something to say about
> the lights once I have them in hand.
If there was a 2 cell version of that light with 3h runtime for 30
bucks--the temptation to mount two of 'em frogeye stylee on my front
Nashbar platform rack might be way too tempting. I figure I can ride
the local wetlands in pitch blackness with a bungeed 3C cell Mag at
10mph and that's 130 lumens, but with 1500 lumens, I can go 100mph!
Hell, yeah!
jim beam
great, just what we need - more assholes that don't understand that
shining this shit into the eyes of other cyclists is highly
objectionable. when are cyclists going to discover what auto
manufacturers have known for nearly 100 years? use diffusers people - the
light should be on the ground, not the eyes of oncoming traffic.
Peter Cole
I do have this one (Cree Q5 LED) in hand:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10727
I haven't mounted it on a bike yet, but I have used it quite a bit. My
impression is that it's plenty bright for road cycling, marginal for
off-road, being about equivalent to a 10W halogen. It's fairly "floody",
at 10' throwing about a 2' spot and a 10' (fairly bright) "spill". Seems
like a nearly ideal beam for biking as opposed to my head-mounted 3W
light which has a smaller spot and less/dimmer spill.
My concern with the P7 lights is that they might be actually too bright
(900 lumen vs 230). The P7 is actually a quad die, with 4 adjacent LED
chips under the single lens.
The light I bought has a "buck/boost" regulator, so it can run on a
single or dual AA Nicad, NiMh, or alkaline, or a single lithium. I
tested this and it ran with even a single nearly dead alkaline. The low
power mode is efficient since it uses a switching regulator. Max output
runtime is about 2 hr with 2 cells. I figure I can easily ride all night
(summer) with 8, AA's. In a pinch I can use convenience store batteries.
I have been using the 1W LEDs for a few years, both head mounted and
handlebar mounted. They were pretty marginal, close to a 2.5W halogen
like the Cateye micro or the Bell whatever-it-was. The 3W LEDs are a
different experience altogether, especially the more recent models like
the Q5. You really have to see one to appreciate how bright it actually is.
For a flashlight handlebar mount, the more expensive Fenix ($8.40) gets
really good reviews, but mine is still back-ordered.
I think I will make a small hood for mine with some aluminum tubing to
mask the upper part of the beam for bike riding. The default circular
beam of a very bright flashlight could be pretty obnoxious to oncoming
traffic.
By all means get back with your P7 review. I'm interested in buying one
for off-road mountain biking. It should be a flame thrower.
bigji...@gmail.com
than if others find lights too bright.
> light should be on the ground, not the eyes of oncoming traffic.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
jim beam
> The brighter the better I am more worried about my vision and safety
> than if others find lights too bright.
would it help focus your attention if i rode into you and punched your
dumbass brains out you selfish piece of shit? i am fucking SICK of
assholes with their retina-destroying point-sources shining their led's in
the eyes of their fellow cyclists.
bigji...@gmail.com
Wear sunglasses . I'm not scared of someone who never learned to look
to the side while riding or driving
On Dec 20, 1:31 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote
Andre Jute
> The brighter the better I am more worried about my vision and safety
> than if others find lights too bright.
That seems like a self-defeating plan. If you blind another road user
with a sharp light carelessly disposed, you make it more likely that
he will crash into you. Surely, if the purpose of the lights is your
"safety", you want to use your lights to enchance your safety, not
endanger it recklessly. -- Andre Jute
jim beam
> Wear sunglasses .
at night??? shit dude, you're even dumber than i thought.
> I'm not scared of someone who never learned to look
> to the side while riding or driving
look out for me asshole - i'll ride straight into you. and make you hurt.
Jay
"jim beam" <spamv...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:3Pb3l.133327$f82.1...@fe08.news.easynews.com...
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:51:52 -0800, bigjimpack wrote:
>
>> Wear sunglasses .
>
> at night??? shit dude, you're even dumber than i thought.
>
>
>
>> I'm not scared of someone who never learned to look
>> to the side while riding or driving
>
> look out for me asshole - i'll ride straight into you. and make you hurt.
>
>
J.
Peter Cole
On a functional level I have to agree. Besides, it's just plain rude.
I had an ultra-bright blinky that I showed up with on a group night
(pace line) ride. I thought I was providing a public service (making the
whole group more visible). The guy behind me said "That light is
*really* obnoxious". I'm embarrassed to admit I hadn't even considered
that angle. I apologized, dropped to the back of the line and stayed
there. I didn't use that light on a group ride again. There can be too
much of a good thing.
Car headlights have to pass an "obnoxiousness" test (regularly). With
high power lights becoming cheaper, and many/most of those lights having
no beam shaping or shading, an already bad situation is just going to
get worse. I admit to muttering "asshole!" a little more than under my
breath this summer when dazzled in broad daylight by an oncoming cyclist
with a high power LED light set to "provoke seizure" (strobe) mode.
Marcus Coles
I often have a retina searing light on my bike at night along with a
lower power more diffuse unit.
Bright lights need to be used with discretion and used as conditions
require. Similar to the correct use of high beams or driving lights
with cars.
As you point out blinding the oncoming traffic is not the wisest approach.
That said, sometimes when faced with being blinded by an oncoming
vehicle operated by a thoughtless oaf, I find it rather difficult to
resist returning the favor.
Marcus
jdre...@gmail.com
Jim
Are there any bicycle lights that have a reasonable cut off? What are
the circumstances that U ride in where U are often being blinded by
another cyclists lights? In the past 5 yrs or so I can think of only
one instance where I was blinded by another cyclists light.
Chalo
>
> when are cyclists going to discover what auto
> manufacturers have known for nearly 100 years? use diffusers people - the
> light should be on the ground, not the eyes of oncoming traffic.
Motorists don't ride "naked" on sidewalks and trails and risk raking
their scalps on tree limbs they didn't see in time. Cyclists who ride
in the actual dark need light that points upwards, too.
Cars that have two or four 55W headlights leak a lot more photons
above the horizon than a single piddly <10W bike light does, beam
pattern notwithstanding. You seem to be looking for things to become
irritated about.
You reckon we should use DOT approved 7" round sealed beams? You go
first, and let us know how it works out.
Chalo
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>>
>> when are cyclists going to discover what auto manufacturers have known
>> for nearly 100 years? use diffusers people - the light should be on
>> the ground, not the eyes of oncoming traffic.
>
> Motorists don't ride "naked" on sidewalks and trails and risk raking
> their scalps on tree limbs they didn't see in time. Cyclists who ride
> in the actual dark need light that points upwards, too.
>
> Cars that have two or four 55W headlights leak a lot more photons above
> the horizon than a single piddly <10W bike light does, beam pattern
> notwithstanding.
er, look into lumens per watt and lumens per sq m. i know you don't like
numbers chalo, but you need to get a grip on them before trying to throw
them about.
> You seem to be looking for things to become irritated
> about.
eh? you don't find blindness irritating???? you evidently don't ride
with assholes with their shit shining in your eyes so you get wrecked
night vision.
>
> You reckon we should use DOT approved 7" round sealed beams? You go
> first, and let us know how it works out.
no, we should use reflectors and diffusers that give a proper "road"
pattern.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> The brighter the better I am more worried about my vision and
>>> safety than if others find lights too bright.
>> That seems like a self-defeating plan. If you blind another road
>> user with a sharp light carelessly disposed, you make it more
>> likely that he will crash into you. Surely, if the purpose of the
>> lights is your "safety", you want to use your lights to enhance
>> your safety, not endanger it recklessly.
> On a functional level I have to agree. Besides, it's just plain
> rude.
> I had an ultra-bright blinky that I showed up with on a group night
> (pace line) ride;. I thought I was providing a public service
> (making the whole group more visible);. The guy behind me said
> "That light is *really* obnoxious";. I'm embarrassed to admit I
> hadn't even considered that angle;. I apologized, dropped to the
> back of the line and stayed there;. I didn't use that light on a
> group ride again;. There can be too much of a good thing.
I never though it was a good thing and see too much of it.
> Car headlights have to pass an "obnoxiousness" test (regularly);.
> With high power lights becoming cheaper, and many/most of those
> lights having no beam shaping or shading, an already bad situation
> is just going to get worse;. I admit to muttering "asshole!" a
> little more than under my breath this summer when dazzled in broad
> daylight by an oncoming cyclist with a high power LED light set to
> "provoke seizure" (strobe) mode.
Interestingly these riders are also ones who will not return a
friendly greeting when offered, I've ceased saying anything to such
riders unless I meet one on a two way bike path and get blinded. They
are also into a schtick that must not be disturbed. It's like the
guys who drive jacked up black Hummers with blackened windows, loud
rumble pipes, 14"wide tires and extra lights all over. It seems
obvious what goes on in the minds of bicyclists who have front and
rear, insultingly bright lights, on in daylight hours.
I wonder if they are NRA members as well, and carry a loaded sidearm.
They don't seem top see themselves as ordinary citizens.
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
i've not seen any modern led lights that address this issue
unfortunately. i think this is critical and needs to be addressed
immediately.
as for instances, my night commute is usually punctuated by one or two
inconsiderates. i use unlit bike paths for several stretches, and when
you're in night vision mode, retina burn can be a real safety issue.
landotter
> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
Cutters vs. Townies?
m...@privacy.net
>After a lot of hemming and hawing, I've taken the plunge with some
>friends and ordered a whole bunch of flashlights with SSC P7-C emitters.
>Lighting nerds will recognize this as Seoul Semiconductors latest and
>greatest commodity emitter. It can produce up to 900 lumens when running
>at max rated voltage (4.2V). In this application, it is powered by a
>rechargeable lithium battery.
I'm not up on this stuff very much.....
Is this emitter better than the Cree on that is talked
abt?
Andre Jute
If find that a North Road handlebar has a convenient angle on it to
place a lamp so it shines along the road but down and slightly off-
centre, so that oncoming traffic is not annoyed. I also have a lower-
power light that is aimed well down and to the ditch side. When a
driver blinds me, I do nothing for several seconds, in the hope that
he has his high lights on in an attempt to identify me as a cyclist.
Then I swing the handlbars slightly. Because of the mounting angle,
the more I swing the bars, the higher the light rises. I pause at
about bumper level and that is usually enough. A friend of mine who
lit me up too long and got this treatment told me my "ditch" light
looked like a second lights being held in reserve to shine into his
eyes if he didn't dim his lights... If the pause at bumper level
doesn't do it, I give him a brief sweep through the car, and if that
doesn't do it, I conclude the driver is drunk or pumped full of his
own armoured self-importance and get the hell off the road. Rarely
happens, though.
Andre Jute
Got it all worked out. Hmm? Maybe.
A Muzi
Jobst, Jobst calm down, you've mixed many unrelated things together.
We 'ordinary citizens' are armed [1]
[1] US Constitution, 2d amendment.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Jay
"landotter" <land...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:144fc075-473f-4bd2...@s36g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
> e-fight! e-fight!
Cutters vs. Townies?
>
>
People sure seem to have strong opinions about bike lights! I like my
DiNotte head and tail lights, and they have good mounts. I make sure they
are aimed correctly.
In my city bike commute (bike lanes), if I have oncoming bike traffic,
*someone* is going the wrong direction. A bike path is a different matter.
Simple as that.
J.
Tim McNamara
<57e3adda-41e1-4414...@y1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
jdre...@gmail.com wrote:
While I'm not peeved enough about it to resort to the measures offered
by jim beam, I find myself in agreement that the lights of some of my
fellow cyclists are obnoxious and- at night- cause dazzle and even
seeing spots. Most of those seem to be HID lights and MR16s rather than
LEDs, the majority of LEDs out there on bikes still being pretty wimpy.
The Lumotec lights and the Schmidt lights have optics designed for
cycling rather than for aircraft and projectors. The lights create a
cutoff of the beam which reduces light wastage and reduces adverse
effects on oncoming people. I haven't seen the Edelux in person, but my
understanding is that this LED light also has appropriate optics for
cycling.
carl...@comcast.net
> "landotter" <landot...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Dear Jay,
I like this combination:
http://www.pepcak.webzdarma.cz/vyspan494.jpg
It's important to have a high and a low beam.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Frank Krygowski
>
> Motorists don't ride "naked" on sidewalks and trails and risk raking
> their scalps on tree limbs they didn't see in time. Cyclists who ride
> in the actual dark need light that points upwards, too.
That may be true for riding in the woods at night, but not for riding
on roads or bike paths. If anything were at head height, it would be
removed by a passing motor vehicle - or, I suppose, a very tall
cyclist, which would explain your concern!
> Cars that have two or four 55W headlights leak a lot more photons
> above the horizon than a single piddly <10W bike light does...
Opposite direction cars tend to pass more quickly than bikes, so super-
bright bike lights cause irritation and blinding for a longer period
of time.
Also, my main problems with oncoming super-bright headlights have
occurred on bike paths, where I'm more in the "hot spot" of the beam.
Really, blinding another rider is just rude.
- Frank Krygowski
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > You seem to be looking for things to become irritated
> > about.
>
> eh? you don't find blindness irritating???? you evidently don't ride
> with assholes with their shit shining in your eyes so you get wrecked
> night vision.
If you ride on the road with cars and complain about bike headlights,
you are eating a plate of shit and complaining that there is a fly in
it.
Chalo
jim beam
no i'm not.
1. car headlights don't have the same point intensity as some of these
modern bike lights.
2. car headlight beam patterns and intensities are regulated by law. bike
light manufacturers simply ignore those laws. diy bike light people like
the op don't even seem to be aware that their actions affect other users,
let alone laws.
3. i ride on roads /and/ otherwise unlit bike paths.
i return to my earlier contention - you obviously don't ride at night.
Peter Cole
> On Dec 20, 3:35 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Motorists don't ride "naked" on sidewalks and trails and risk raking
>> their scalps on tree limbs they didn't see in time. Cyclists who ride
>> in the actual dark need light that points upwards, too.
>
> That may be true for riding in the woods at night, but not for riding
> on roads or bike paths. If anything were at head height, it would be
> removed by a passing motor vehicle - or, I suppose, a very tall
> cyclist, which would explain your concern!
I think you've got to cut Chalo & me a little slack there. I don't know
about him, but I've been knocked off a bike by a low branch more than once.
> Also, my main problems with oncoming super-bright headlights have
> occurred on bike paths, where I'm more in the "hot spot" of the beam.
> Really, blinding another rider is just rude.
Good point. I think part of the disagreement here is context. I agree
with you that badly aimed bike lights are much more of a problem off the
street. Mountain bike "flood" lights (like HIDs) are in a special
category. I'd not like to see LED lights get that bad.
Davo
In mountain biking there is a trend towards helmet mounted lights, in
which case it's easy to look away from, or to the side of an oncoming
cyclist. Additionally the newer generation of power controllers have
dimmable (my spell-check doesn't like that word) control of the light.
My guess it's those nasty roadies with bar mounted undimmable lights
that are the problem.
Having said that, I use a iBlaast II and it's great!
bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com
<big snip of Jobstian bloviation>
> They don't seem to see themselves as ordinary citizens.
>
>
Did anyone else have to clean up after their Irony Meter exploded? ;-)
Tim McNamara
Davo <Da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In mountain biking there is a trend towards helmet mounted lights, in
> which case it's easy to look away from, or to the side of an oncoming
> cyclist. Additionally the newer generation of power controllers have
> dimmable (my spell-check doesn't like that word) control of the light.
Helmet mounted lights have the advantage of aiming where your head is
pointing, and the disadvantage of diminished depth perception and
flattened perspective. I didn't like mine and sold it.
> My guess it's those nasty roadies with bar mounted undimmable lights
> that are the problem.
Mine are mounted at the level of the fork crown, which provides much
better results. The light, being lower, provides a longer pool of light
and better reveal of bumps, potholes, etc. When the light is mounted
higher, it must be aimed lower and you just end up with a short, round,
bright patch of pavement that isn't all that useful.
incredulous 2
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:13:49 -0800, Chalo wrote:
> > jim beam wrote:
>
>
> 1. car headlights don't have the same point intensity as some of these
> modern bike lights.
I wonder if that is true of automotive HID lights, some of which are
very small. The release of car headlamps from old standards permitted
them to flourish. While someone here laughed at 7" bulbs on a bike, 5"
automotive halogen ones were shown on a bike at tone of the most
widely visited bike lighting sites. Naturally, weight and aero
considerations make them suspect as for dorks.
Can anybody point to gen u wine research on size of lamp and
visibility, addressing the issue of -"to-be-seen" purpose, as in
daytime use?
>
> 2. car headlight beam patterns and intensities are regulated by law. bike
> light manufacturers simply ignore those laws. diy bike light people like
> the op don't even seem to be aware that their actions affect other users,
> let alone laws.
The bang for the buck, single parameter model of quality overwhelms
the market when weighted by price. bicyclelifesyle group has had a
number of discussions of the German lights with lenses, reflectors,
and beam patterns jb favors. I have to wonder whether even
flashlights, now that so much candlepower is available may start to
include reflectors and lenses to aid usability. Whatever you think of
peter white, he seems to fluent on the language of and design of the
German standards for road lighting.
hpt
jim beam
> On Dec 20, 6:40 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:13:49 -0800, Chalo wrote:
>> > jim beam wrote:
>>
>>
>
>> 1. car headlights don't have the same point intensity as some of these
>> modern bike lights.
>
> I wonder if that is true of automotive HID lights, some of which are
> very small.
i was looking at one of those led-lit audis the other day - they appear to
have diffusers.
> The release of car headlamps from old standards permitted
> them to flourish. While someone here laughed at 7" bulbs on a bike, 5"
> automotive halogen ones were shown on a bike at tone of the most widely
> visited bike lighting sites. Naturally, weight and aero considerations
> make them suspect as for dorks.
>
> Can anybody point to gen u wine research on size of lamp and visibility,
> addressing the issue of -"to-be-seen" purpose, as in daytime use?
>
>
>> 2. car headlight beam patterns and intensities are regulated by law.
>> bike light manufacturers simply ignore those laws. diy bike light
>> people like the op don't even seem to be aware that their actions
>> affect other users, let alone laws.
>
> The bang for the buck, single parameter model of quality overwhelms the
> market when weighted by price. bicyclelifesyle group has had a number
> of discussions of the German lights with lenses, reflectors, and beam
> patterns jb favors.
if there are some german led bike lights with the correct beam patterns,
i, and i'm sure many others, would love further information.
Nate Nagel
> On Dec 20, 6:40 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:13:49 -0800, Chalo wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>
>> 1. car headlights don't have the same point intensity as some of these
>> modern bike lights.
>
> I wonder if that is true of automotive HID lights, some of which are
> very small. The release of car headlamps from old standards permitted
> them to flourish. While someone here laughed at 7" bulbs on a bike, 5"
> automotive halogen ones were shown on a bike at tone of the most
> widely visited bike lighting sites. Naturally, weight and aero
> considerations make them suspect as for dorks.
>
> Can anybody point to gen u wine research on size of lamp and
> visibility, addressing the issue of -"to-be-seen" purpose, as in
> daytime use?
If you have a genuine interest in the subject, I'd ask Daniel Stern if
he could point you in the right direction... (he's pretty much the
Peter White of automotive lighting.) If such information exists, he
likely knows where to find it.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> 2. car headlight beam patterns and intensities are regulated by
>>>> law. bike light manufacturers simply ignore those laws. diy
>>>> bike light people like the op don't even seem to be aware that
>>>> their actions affect other users, let alone laws.
>>> The bang for the buck, single parameter model of quality
>>> overwhelms the market when weighted by price. bicyclelifesyle
>>> group has had a number of discussions of the German lights with
>>> lenses, reflectors, and beam patterns jb favors.
>> if there are some german led bike lights with the correct beam
>> patterns, i, and i'm sure many others, would love further
>> information.
> Light distribution for bicycle headlamps in Germany is regulated
> similar to ECE test criteria for headlights of motorized
> vehicles. The most critical point is: 3.4 degree above the brightest
> beam-angle the intensity has to be less than 2 lux in 10 meters
> distance (this equals 200 candela). This "max. 2 lux in 10m"
> requirement for the possible blinding part of the beam is exactly
> the same as what is requested for symmetrical low beam headlights of
> motorized vehicles.
> See details of the german standard at
http://www.enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Beleuchtung/node342.html
It's great that someone realizes the blinding effect of these lights.
Too bad such specifications cannot make it across the ocean to the
USA, similar to that road signs that use icons cannot make it from
Europe to the USA. The ones that do, such as the "DO NOT ENTER"
(round red with crossbar) get modified with gratuitous verbiage.
It's like "NO PARKING" signs where the largest text is in the white
field below the words "no parking" is "ANY TIME". Makes me wonder
what people don't understand about NO PARKING. Of course there is an
unambiguous icon sign with a red slash across a black "P", but that's
only good for those Yerp peons.
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
on the subject of "gratuitous verbiage", was there a single electron in
that missive that wasn't wasted?
jim beam
> Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:47:26 GMT, jim beam:
>
>>>> 2. car headlight beam patterns and intensities are regulated by law.
>>>> bike light manufacturers simply ignore those laws. diy bike light
>>>> people like the op don't even seem to be aware that their actions
>>>> affect other users, let alone laws.
>>>
>>> The bang for the buck, single parameter model of quality overwhelms
>>> the market when weighted by price. bicyclelifesyle group has had a
>>> number of discussions of the German lights with lenses, reflectors,
>>> and beam patterns jb favors.
>>
>>if there are some german led bike lights with the correct beam patterns,
>>i, and i'm sure many others, would love further information.
>
> Light distribution for bicycle headlamps in Germany is regulated similar
> to ECE test criteria for headlights of motoriced vehicles. The most
> critical point is: 3.4 degree above the brightest beam-angle the
> intensity has to be less than 2 lux in 10 meters distance (this equals
> 200 candela). This "max. 2 lux in 10m" requirement for the possible
> blinding part of the beam is exactly the same as what is requested for
> symmetrical low beam headlights of motorised vehicles.
>
> See details of the german standard at
> http://www.enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Beleuchtung/node342.html
>
> Andreas
good info - thanks.
who are some good online german bike light retailers?
incredulous 2
> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:52:37 +0100, Andreas Oehler wrote:
> > Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:47:26 GMT, jim beam:
> who are some good online german bike light retailers?
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/lightingsystems.htm
includes extensive discussion, to beyond the usual retail level of
guidance,of the German and other products he sells and distributes in
the US.
Do the HID lights for bikes especially promoted for off-road and
trail night riding include much in the way beam shaping? I have the
impression they do not, lowering the cost of entry into the business
by requiring little of the precision engineering that might required
for that.
hpt
Peter Cole
> It's like "NO PARKING" signs where the largest text is in the white
> field below the words "no parking" is "ANY TIME". Makes me wonder
> what people don't understand about NO PARKING. Of course there is an
> unambiguous icon sign with a red slash across a black "P", but that's
> only good for those Yerp peons.
Around here (Boston), it's very common for No Parking signs to include
information about the times/days of the parking restrictions. When
circling the block looking for a space, the "No Parking" is the least
important piece of information.
jim beam
> On Dec 21, 1:25 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:52:37 +0100, Andreas Oehler wrote:
>> > Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:47:26 GMT, jim beam:
>
>> who are some good online german bike light retailers?
>
> http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/lightingsystems.htm
>
> includes extensive discussion, to beyond the usual retail level of
> guidance,of the German and other products he sells and distributes in
> the US.
great info. that busch & müller big bang looks like a winner.
>
> Do the HID lights for bikes especially promoted for off-road and trail
> night riding include much in the way beam shaping? I have the impression
> they do not, lowering the cost of entry into the business by requiring
> little of the precision engineering that might required for that.
>
none of the domestic ones that i'm aware of. my off-road hid light is
conical beam.
incredulous 2
> Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:47:26 GMT, jim beam:
>
> >>> bike light manufacturers simply ignore those laws. diy bike light
> >>> people like the op don't even seem to be aware that their actions
> >>> affect other users, let alone laws.
>
> >> The bang for the buck, single parameter model of quality overwhelms the
> >> market when weighted by price. bicyclelifesyle group has had a number
> >> of discussions of the German lights with lenses, reflectors, and beam
> >> patterns jb favors.
>
> >if there are some german led bike lights with the correct beam patterns,
> >i, and i'm sure many others, would love further information.
>
> to ECE test criteria for headlights of motoriced vehicles. The most
> critical point is: 3.4 degree above the brightest beam-angle the intensity
> has to be less than 2 lux in 10 meters distance (this equals 200 candela).
> This "max. 2 lux in 10m" requirement for the possible blinding part of the
> beam is exactly the same as what is requested for symmetrical low beam
> headlights of motorised vehicles.
>
> See details of the german standard at http://www.enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Beleuchtung/node342.html
>
> Andreas
German lights seem expensive relative to the cost of commuter bikes.
Do most cyclists in the ECE get by with poor lights, about what is
sold in the US for $50 -$100?
If so, is that possible because the standard effectively exempts
lower-output lights, say those emitting what 1W -rated LED's deliver
from several AA batteries?
HPT
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Standard NO PARKING signs, in reasonable areas, have a separate sign
below the prohibition stating exemptions because they are specific and
unique to the location. The signs to which I refer are initially made
with the words ANY TIME as a major part of the sign.
Jobst Brandt
Peter Cole
Most, if not all, of the really bright lights are intended specifically
for off-road riding. Using them on the street is done, but it's a
misapplication. I've done it myself, but only because that was the only
light I had. I expect others do it for the same reason.
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> Do the HID lights for bikes especially promoted for off-road and
> trail night riding include much in the way beam shaping? I have the
> impression they do not, lowering the cost of entry into the business
> by requiring little of the precision engineering that might required
> for that.
I think you're correct. I imagine the technical skills needed for
good optics are a lot less common than those needed to assemble light
sources (LEDs, HIDs, halogens), batteries, and housings.
- Frank Krygowski
jim beam
and your delta tau chi name will be, FLOUNDER.
jobst, searching for relevance with such pathetic off-topic drivel is
painful to witness. stop it.
Frank Krygowski
>
> Most, if not all, of the really bright lights are intended specifically
> for off-road riding. Using them on the street is done, but it's a
> misapplication. I've done it myself, but only because that was the only
> light I had. I expect others do it for the same reason.
I think most of that misapplication is a result of ignorance and fear.
What I've heard and read, over and over, is cyclists claiming they
want to be obnoxiously conspicuous. They're very afraid that they'll
be run down because they're not noticed; and they think they can't be
noticed without being obnoxious. That's the "fear" part.
The "ignorance" part is that they've never bothered to examine how
conspicuous ordinary bike lights are. A quick test with the help of a
friend should show that one doesn't need 1000 lumens for safety!
The other "ignorance" part is that few think about the benefits of
good optics, or the detriments of bad ones. Their thinking never
rises above this level:
"I need a light. A bright one is good. A brighter one is better.
I'm going to splurge and get the brightest #*%@! light they sell."
To their credit, at least they realize they do need a light! Lots of
folks never get that part.
- Frank Krygowski
Peter Cole
I don't know if this area qualifies as "reasonable", but most of the
parking signs are qualified, and the qualifications can be extensive
(e.g. M-F 7-10AM 4-7PM, "here to corner", or "Wed street cleaning"). I
really dislike sign clutter, so I'd much rather have one than two signs.
It makes sense to have a general format where the bulk of the sign area
is reserved for the qualifications. Of course that makes "ANY TIME" look
exaggerated, kind of like "go CHILDREN slow".
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
I think the obnoxious people are ignorant because they themselves are
not observant and are often surprised by situations of which they
assume others similarly likewise unaware, so they try to make
themselves conspicuous to like minds. I think "unclear on the
concept" fits.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
I think the obnoxious people are ignorant because they themselves are
not observant and are often surprised by situations of which they
assume others are similarly unaware, so they try to make themselves
Peter Cole
The off-road application doesn't want/need beam shaping. What you want
is an even flood that doesn't introduce artifacts. You are trying to
spot bumps and holes which get harder to discern if the beam has bright
and dim spots. The standard multi-faceted reflector (MR) halogens are
pretty good in this respect, that's what the reflector is designed for.
"Orange peel" reflectors on the new high power LED flashlights perform
the same function. You want to collimate (to limit spread) and diffuse
(to even out) slightly.
Many of the popular low power bike lights used simple symmetrical
reflectors with plain lenses (like Bell Vistalite). They throw very
uneven (usually ring shaped) beams, like old Ray-o-Vac flashlights.
Others, like the Cateve Micro, have shaped reflectors and some fresnel
type elements in the lens.
Any high power light has to use a heat resistant reflector, which
probably makes tooling costs large for a complex shape. Maybe you could
get by with a simple reflector & a more complex lens (like old sealed
beams), but that would be a road specific version of an off-road light,
I'm not sure how big the market would be.
A R:nen
> It's like "NO PARKING" signs where the largest text is in the white
> field below the words "no parking" is "ANY TIME". Makes me wonder
> what people don't understand about NO PARKING. Of course there is an
> unambiguous icon sign with a red slash across a black "P", but that's
> only good for those Yerp peons.
In most of Yerp that's an *obsolete* traffic sign, and has been so
for several decades now. The one exception that I know of is the
Republic of Ireland.
The Vienna Convention "no parking" sign is a blue disk with a red
border and a red diagonal stripe, the "no stopping" sign has a second
diagonal stripe in a cross.
Tim McNamara
Peter Cole <peter...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Dec 21, 2:15 pm, incredulous 2 <travis.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Do the HID lights for bikes especially promoted for off-road and
> >> trail night riding include much in the way beam shaping? I have
> >> the impression they do not, lowering the cost of entry into the
> >> business by requiring little of the precision engineering that
> >> might required for that.
> >
> > I think you're correct. I imagine the technical skills needed for
> > good optics are a lot less common than those needed to assemble
> > light sources (LEDs, HIDs, halogens), batteries, and housings.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> The off-road application doesn't want/need beam shaping. What you
> want is an even flood that doesn't introduce artifacts. You are
> trying to spot bumps and holes which get harder to discern if the
> beam has bright and dim spots.
And it's even harder to discern those surface features the closer the
light source is to the eyes. A helmet is the worst location for a
light. Poor light placement results in a perceived need for "more
light" than is really necessary.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Well here they are and those signs are 249 and 250, definitions in the
table below:
Some other signs, but you ought to scroll down the page:
Jobst Brandt
Peter Cole
I agree that head-mounted lights flatten things, but that's offset to a
degree by the ability to aim them. Where they really suck is in rain,
snow or fog, where backscatter makes them useless.
RonSonic
I don't know what the cool kids are running this winter, but for years the
combination for off road was a flood on the bars and a spot on the helmet.
The idea is to be able to pick up texture from the bike mounted light and look
ahead around corners, etc with the helmet.
Peter Cole
Yeah, that's always the full monty. You just have to learn not to look
at your buddies when you talk to them.
Johnny Borborigmi
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:03:55 -0800, bigjimpack wrote:
> > The brighter the better I am more worried about my vision and safety
> > than if others find lights too bright.
>
> would it help focus your attention if i rode into you and punched your
> dumbass brains out you selfish piece of shit? i am fucking SICK of
> assholes with their retina-destroying point-sources shining their led's in
> the eyes of their fellow cyclists.
Calm down there tough guy. You scare no one.
Ryan Cousineau
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
The Vienna Convention is a fine thing, especially given the fact that
the EU is wildly multilingual, often within the same country, and it
allows for universal signs.
Of course, the universal iconic signs are pretty much a glyph-alphabet
of their own you have to memorize, unless someone unfamiliar with Vienna
Convention signs would care to demonstrate that these ones are obvious
in their meaning to any driver:
<http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02c36r.gif>
<http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02d09r.gif>
<http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02b35r.gif>
<http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02b04r.gif>
<http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02d04r.gif>
Answer key:
<http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/>
The US does have its own road sign iconography, one it largely shares
with Canada. Both countries are much more willing to use their shared
vernacular on signage, because it is much more easily assumed as a
universal language (except in Quebec, where the signs are often
unilingual French; the Anglos get by).
As the originator of this thread, I ought to note that first, these
900-lumen lights have two brightness settings, and second, I ordered a
pair of them primarily as lights-to-see-by in unlit conditions: trail
riding and unlit roads.
I suppose I'd get a light with road-centric optics if one was available
cheaply, but I'd also point out that in conditions where these lights
might blind oncoming drivers, they can be set to low beam, and it's also
really easy to bump a handlebar mount so the light points lower, aka
manual-low-beam.
BTW, does anyone have a good idea of how 900 lumens would compare to the
light output of familiar lights, such as (for example) a set of car low
beams?
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
Nate Nagel
good ones can push 2000 lumens, but keep in mind that any *good*
automotive low beam has a sharp horizontal cutoff, which is solidly
locked in to the car body so it doesn't drift out of adjustment. Even a
good e-code light aimed too high can be blinding on low beam.
Beam pattern is just as important for bike lights as it is for vehicles,
the principles are the same just at lower speed. You can make up for
marginal optics by simply throwing more light, but only to a point.
nate
(hypocrite, still rockin' the Task Force with the Dealextreme collimator
- it's sufficient for roads around here where it never gets dark, and it
certainly can be seen...)
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
m...@privacy.net
>on the subject of "gratuitous verbiage", was there a single electron in
>that missive that wasn't wasted?
What abt helmet mounted lights?
Anyone have advice on them?
jim beam
funny. i think ignorant people are obnoxious because they are unobservant
and often surprised by situations about which they should be aware. like
"engineers" that don't know about metal fatigue, deformation, or even
strength of structures.
> so they try to make themselves conspicuous
> to like minds. I think "unclear on the concept" fits.
some do indeed like to make themselves conspicuous, even though they're
hopelessly unclear on the concepts on which they opine.
jim beam
they're great off road. as pointed out by others, they can be a challenge
in rain or fog, but for off road use, their advantages outweigh.
pm
> The brighter the better I am more worried about my vision and safety
> than if others find lights too bright.
>
>
> > On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 16:07:06 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > So, I don't know if you've heard, but apparently there's this new "LED"
> > > technology that's all the rage among the cool kids these days.
>
> > > Ahem.
>
> > > After a lot of hemming and hawing, I've taken the plunge with some
> > > friends and ordered a whole bunch of flashlights with SSC P7-C emitters.
> > > Lighting nerds will recognize this as Seoul Semiconductors latest and
> > > greatest commodity emitter. It can produce up to 900 lumens when running
> > > at max rated voltage (4.2V). In this application, it is powered by a
> > > rechargeable lithium battery.
>
> > > The not-secret is that these flashlights are well ahead of the
> > > bike-specific lighting market, and you can buy bike mounts. If anyone
> > > wants to reproduce my setup, here's what we ordered:
>
> > > Flashlight:
> > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15691
>
> > > Batteries:
> > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5790
>
> > > Charger:
> > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6105
>
> > > Cheesy plastic bike mount:
> > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15642
>
> > > No particular endorsement of DealExtreme intended here: they had this
> > > stuff, the prices were good, and about five of us saved a small amount
> > > by grouping an order and using their BULKRATE code.
>
> > > This is mostly a preview post. I promise to have something to say about
> > > the lights once I have them in hand.
>
> > great, just what we need - more assholes that don't understand that
> > shining this shit into the eyes of other cyclists is highly
> > objectionable. when are cyclists going to discover what auto
> > manufacturers have known for nearly 100 years? use diffusers people - the
> > light should be on the ground, not the eyes of oncoming traffic.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
the other day i nearly collided with some pedestrians on the MUP who
were at no fault -- an approaching rider with bright beams obliterated
everything in that quadrant of space from detection save himself. no
matter what reflective clothing anyone else was wearing.
with a head mounted light it is easy to turn your head to the side as
you pass an oncomer, as a courtesy.
-pm
Frank Krygowski
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> A helmet is the worst location for a
> > light. Poor light placement results in a perceived need for "more
> > light" than is really necessary.
>
> I agree that head-mounted lights flatten things, but that's offset to a
> degree by the ability to aim them. Where they really suck is in rain,
> snow or fog, where backscatter makes them useless.
I'd think that for off-roading, the most efficient optics would give
and extremely wide beam (like, 90 degrees), with no hot spots or other
artifacts. The wide beam is because there are lots of slow-speed,
super-sharp turns off road.
I'd think it would still direct more light downward than upward,
because there are far more obstacles and hazards on the surface than
in the air, and because upward glare hurts your night vision,
requiring overcompensating with even more lumens.
I also think the light should be mounted on the bike, not the head, to
show surface relief. With a super-wide beam, you shouldn't need to
aim the light by moving your head.
I'll admit that I'm speculating. I almost never ride off road at
night, and a light like I'm describing doesn't exist, AFAIK. But it
would be interesting for someone to try the idea.
- Frank Krygowski
Michael Press
<rcousine-DCA949.17432321122008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hammer time.
> <http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02d09r.gif>
Pick a lane, any lane.
> <http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02b35r.gif>
No, you cannot.
> <http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02b04r.gif>
What goes up must come down.
> <http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02d04r.gif>
Bicycles only.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
wrote:
A low mount light such as at fork crown level
or lower will throw into relief road hazards,
while a light near your eyes will illuminate
the scenery with a uniform intensity, washing
out relief.
--
Michael Press
Ryan Cousineau
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
Full points!
bjwe...@gmail.com
> In article <rubrum-E81C2F.20315122122...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02d04r.gif
No entry for '70s muscle cars.
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a07r.gif
Yield to ballistic missiles.
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02b33r.gif
Watch for ghost trucks.
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/rrcount2r.gif
Ankylosaurus crossing:
( http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/BIOL/classes/bio302/Pages/ankylosaurus.jpg
)
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a20r.gif
Traditional barbers are dying out.
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a31r.gif
We haven't got the mudflap-girl thing down yet.
Ben
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
Dear Ryan,
Open containers allowed:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a11r.gif
Picket fence zone:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/rrbarrierr.gif
Aliens may be watching from behind diagonal bilnds:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/enddiscr.gif
Raccoon tails permitted on aerials:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a21r.gif
This sign left intentionally blank:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02b24r.gif
Spinergy wheels required:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02d39r.gif
Tires rotate in this direction:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a18r.gif
Indian reservation:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02d29r.gif
Mourning zone:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02b35r.gif
Danger! Gutter bunnies:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02c022r.gif
Danger! Squirrels in trees:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/exitr.gif
Caution! Aliens may abduct pedestrians:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/pedzebprr.gif
Dragstrip ahead:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a37r.gif
Arrange six matchsticks to form a hexagon:
http://www.ideamerge.com/motoeuropa/roadsigns/x02a20r.gif
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Tom Sherman
> On Dec 20, 3:35 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Motorists don't ride "naked" on sidewalks and trails and risk raking
>> their scalps on tree limbs they didn't see in time. Cyclists who ride
>> in the actual dark need light that points upwards, too.
>
> That may be true for riding in the woods at night, but not for riding
> on roads or bike paths. If anything were at head height, it would be
> removed by a passing motor vehicle - or, I suppose, a very tall
> cyclist, which would explain your concern![...]
Horsey position cyclists do get way up there. Not many branches at 3
feet off the ground.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
Tom Sherman
> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:15:07 -0800, incredulous 2 wrote:
>
>> On Dec 21, 1:25 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:52:37 +0100, Andreas Oehler wrote:
>>>> Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:47:26 GMT, jim beam:
>>> who are some good online german bike light retailers?
>> http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/lightingsystems.htm
>>
>> includes extensive discussion, to beyond the usual retail level of
>> guidance,of the German and other products he sells and distributes in
>> the US.
>
> great info. that busch & müller big bang looks like a winner.
> [...]
Any bicycle light that costs a kilobuck SHOULD be great.
SMS
> I had an ultra-bright blinky that I showed up with on a group night
> (pace line) ride. I thought I was providing a public service (making the
> whole group more visible). The guy behind me said "That light is
> *really* obnoxious". I'm embarrassed to admit I hadn't even considered
> that angle. I apologized, dropped to the back of the line and stayed
> there. I didn't use that light on a group ride again. There can be too
> much of a good thing.
Pace lines are different than riding alone. You wouldn't use your high
beam car headlights in a line of traffic either. Someone with a turn
signal they forget to turn off for 20 miles on a freeway is also obnoxious.
Most of these high-power LED flashlights are digitally regulated and
have multiple brightnesses (with correspondingly different duration).
Another consideration is when you're riding on a bike path, with the
oncoming bicycle almost directly in front of you, rather than on a road
where you're separated from oncoming traffic by at least a few meters.
jim beam
> Peter Cole wrote:
>
>> I had an ultra-bright blinky that I showed up with on a group night
>> (pace line) ride. I thought I was providing a public service (making
>> the whole group more visible). The guy behind me said "That light is
>> *really* obnoxious". I'm embarrassed to admit I hadn't even considered
>> that angle. I apologized, dropped to the back of the line and stayed
>> there. I didn't use that light on a group ride again. There can be too
>> much of a good thing.
>
> Pace lines are different than riding alone. You wouldn't use your high
> beam car headlights in a line of traffic either. Someone with a turn
> signal they forget to turn off for 20 miles on a freeway is also
> obnoxious.
>
> Most of these high-power LED flashlights are digitally regulated and
> have multiple brightnesses (with correspondingly different duration).
technically, it's usually only the duration that's regulated, not the
brightness. "apparent" brightness may differ, but that's because the eye
is tricked, not because the control circuitry changes output voltages.
SMS
> Peter Cole wrote:
>
>>> It's like "NO PARKING" signs where the largest text is in the white
>>> field below the words "no parking" is "ANY TIME". Makes me wonder
>>> what people don't understand about NO PARKING. Of course there is
>>> an unambiguous icon sign with a red slash across a black "P", but
>>> that's only good for those Yerp peons.
>
>> include information about the times/days of the parking
>> restrictions. When circling the block looking for a space, the "No
>> Parking" is the least important piece of information.
>
> Standard NO PARKING signs, in reasonable areas, have a separate sign
> below the prohibition stating exemptions because they are specific and
> unique to the location. The signs to which I refer are initially made
> with the words ANY TIME as a major part of the sign.
I remember stop signs when I was a kid with STOP in the center, and the
word "Full" on top in smaller letters, with "2 Way" or "4 Way"
underneath. The latter text was useful, but what kind of stop is there
other than a "Full" stop. If they don't require a full stop, they can
use a Yield sign instead.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> It's like "NO PARKING" signs where the largest text is in the white
>> field below the words "no parking" is "ANY TIME". Makes me wonder
>> what people don't understand about NO PARKING. Of course there is an
>> unambiguous icon sign with a red slash across a black "P", but that's
>> only good for those Yerp peons.
> Around here (Boston), it's very common for No Parking signs to
> include information about the times/days of the parking
> restrictions. When circling the block looking for a space, the "No
> Parking" is the least important piece of information.
http://radio-bip.qc.ca/deneigement/viewer.html#x14x93xDéneigement à Montréal au début janvier 2006
Jobst Brandt