California "innovative" facilities

[Frank Krygowski]

About the purported benefits of "protection" from auto traffic:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/897754635015080/posts/960457842078092/

You shouldn't need to be a Facebooker to read the post. It contains some
interesting details about California laws that apparently give you
special legal rights to avoid the worst of the "innovation."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Isn’t that mainly a behaviour ie drivers shouldn’t be driving over the
barriers, or leaving bins etc on the road blocking the cyclelane.

Change is always a surprise and takes time for people to get used to

Plus maintenance ie roads should be cleaned/damage repaired, which folks
are paying for the service so if your not getting it?

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I have covered that well before. Traffic engineers rather than having a manual from which to work, simply do anything that they think is a good idea. And since almost none of them ride a bike, most of the ideas are really stupid. I spoke before about one street in particular Where they placed a bike lane against the curb and moved the parking area towards the middle of the street. The "bike lane" was full of broken glass and such and parked cars had to open their doors into the narrow traffic lane. If you don't call stupid, stupid that what do you do? Agree that Father Knows Best?

[AMuzi]

Government services for the actual taxpayers? Surely you jest!

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2835683/nyc-plans-to-give-pre-paid-credit-cards-to-migrants-to-tune-of-53-million/
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2024 3:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 9:09:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> About the purported benefits of "protection" from auto traffic:
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/897754635015080/posts/960457842078092/
>>
>> You shouldn't need to be a Facebooker to read the post. It contains some
>> interesting details about California laws that apparently give you
>> special legal rights to avoid the worst of the "innovation."
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> I have covered that well before. Traffic engineers rather than having a manual from which to work, simply do anything that they think is a good idea.

Actually, it's gotten worse than that. For a long time, the design
manuals for bike facilities warned of dangers regarding weird
infrastructure. For example, I own several editions of the AASHTO design
manual for bike facilities. It listed about a dozen detriments of
segregated bike paths at the edge of roadways. These were problems that
were obvious to the engineers compiling the manual - things like
motorists not noticing cyclists off to the side and colliding when
cutting across their path. Or ignorant bicyclists turning left from a
right edge facility. Or wrong-way cyclists zooming unexpectedly into
intersections. The manual didn't absolutely forbid such designs, but it
cautioned heavily against them.

That didn't sit well with the "paint & path" crowd, the advocates who
think there's no such thing as a bad bike facility. So first, they
formed their own organization, NACTO, and put out their own quasi
manual. Rather than a design manual, it was an exhaustive collection of
every weird idea conceived anywhere. It was intended as inspiration.
There was almost no actual design information, such as dimensions
necessary for safe use by bicyclists.

The next stage, still pretty new, was taking over AASHTO. "Paint & path"
folks got themselves onto AASHTO's committees, and modified the manual
to permit all their weird ideas. The manuals now encourage "do anything
you think is a good idea."

So bi-directional on-road bike lanes that have increased car-bike
crashes by factors of ten or more? Check! Great idea!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Yes I have some familiarity with that and you are right.

Yet, you generally favor a nation with 'rule by experts'
despite glaring disasters as above and examples large and
small besides.

[John B.]

No wonder the borders are full of folks trying to get across. -) Free
money, dinner in the big hotels...

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Should bike facilities be designed by experts? Or should every park
system, township, village, city and state invent its own crazy ideas?

Yes, the purported "experts" can be political hacks with agendas, as in
the rewrite of the bikeway design manuals. But there are limits to their
errors; and at least ideally, there are mechanisms for correcting those
errors. If enough evidence accumulates that (say) bi-directional
on-street bike lanes are dangerous, some edition of the manual will
eventually recommend against them.

Meanwhile, overconfident and ignorant folks actually argue in favor of
wrong way riding, for collision hazards like posts in the middle of bike
lanes, and for other craziness. Putting them in charge of facility
design is worse.

Typical regulation and government is imperfect. But I think anarchy
usually produces much worse results.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2024 8:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> Should bike facilities be designed by experts? Or should every park
> system, township, village, city and state invent its own crazy ideas?
>
> Yes, the purported "experts" can be political hacks with agendas, as in
> the rewrite of the bikeway design manuals. But there are limits to their
> errors; and at least ideally, there are mechanisms for correcting those
> errors. If enough evidence accumulates that (say) bi-directional
> on-street bike lanes are dangerous, some edition of the manual will
> eventually recommend against them.

I should add that a true expert will spot the politically driven
shortcomings in a design manual and will not incorporate those bad
features into his designs. I know of one traffic engineer that is a true
bicycling expert and is working hard on just that aspect of his job.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 2/16/2024 10:45 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> Isn’t that mainly a behaviour ie drivers shouldn’t be driving over the
> barriers, or leaving bins etc on the road blocking the cyclelane.
>
> Change is always a surprise and takes time for people to get used to
>
> Plus maintenance ie roads should be cleaned/damage repaired, which folks
> are paying for the service so if your not getting it?

One of the major reasons for the protected bike lanes is, ironically,
pointed out in Zach Kaplan's post: "...possible wheel, rim, and
suspension damage for any motorists that have a lapse of attention and
drift over them." Well yes, the idea is that motorists should not be
"drifting" over them whether it's because of a lapse of attention or
whatever.

Without those separators motorist routinely drift into onto the shoulder
or painted bike lane, or decide to park there to take a call, make a
delivery, do drop-offs or pick-ups, etc.

One incident of some idiot motorist damaging a piece of infrastructure
is not a reason to proclaim that it's just terrible (well unless you're
"he who must not be named").

Another advantage of the separated bike lanes is that motorists drive
slower and are forced to pay attention.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[sms]

On 2/16/2024 1:56 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

>> Government services for the actual taxpayers? Surely you jest!
>>
>> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2835683/nyc-plans-to-give-pre-paid-credit-cards-to-migrants-to-tune-of-53-million/
>
> No wonder the borders are full of folks trying to get across. -) Free
> money, dinner in the big hotels...

It's terrible. Of course it's not actually true, like most "news" in the
Washington Examiner or New York Post.

No credit cards are being given out. It's debit cards that can be used
for food and baby supplies. They will replace the food boxes that are
currently being supplied to those in need and will save an estimated
$7.2 million annually.

Too many people that lack critical thinking skills will believe social
media posts or stories in right-wing media outlets, without doing any
fact checking.

Remember "Obama-phones." Started under President Reagan, for landline
phones, then expanded to mobile phones under George W. Bush, you now
have Republicans screaming about subsidizing lifeline service for
low-income people, and trying to blame Obama for something he didn't start.

[John B.]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 18:33:54 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/16/2024 1:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> Government services for the actual taxpayers? Surely you jest!
>>>
>>> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2835683/nyc-plans-to-give-pre-paid-credit-cards-to-migrants-to-tune-of-53-million/
>>
>> No wonder the borders are full of folks trying to get across. -) Free
>> money, dinner in the big hotels...
>
>It's terrible. Of course it's not actually true, like most "news" in the
>Washington Examiner or New York Post.
>
>No credit cards are being given out. It's debit cards that can be used
>for food and baby supplies. They will replace the food boxes that are
>currently being supplied to those in need and will save an estimated
>$7.2 million annually.
>
>Too many people that lack critical thinking skills will believe social
>media posts or stories in right-wing media outlets, without doing any
>fact checking.
>
>Remember "Obama-phones." Started under President Reagan, for landline
>phones, then expanded to mobile phones under George W. Bush, you now
>have Republicans screaming about subsidizing lifeline service for
>low-income people, and trying to blame Obama for something he didn't start.

Yes, you may "know" this and I may "know" this, but, more and more,
largely through the advent of the Internet, what the average guy knows
is often not the same thing.

This is not a really a new accomplishment as the U.S.-Spanish war
(April - December 1898) was largely promoted by two newspapers - The
New York World and the New York Journal which recognized the
potential for great headlines and stories that would sell copies.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 2/16/2024 10:45 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Isn’t that mainly a behaviour ie drivers shouldn’t be driving over the
>> barriers, or leaving bins etc on the road blocking the cyclelane.
>>
>> Change is always a surprise and takes time for people to get used to
>>
>> Plus maintenance ie roads should be cleaned/damage repaired, which folks
>> are paying for the service so if your not getting it?
>
> One of the major reasons for the protected bike lanes is, ironically,
> pointed out in Zach Kaplan's post: "...possible wheel, rim, and
> suspension damage for any motorists that have a lapse of attention and
> drift over them." Well yes, the idea is that motorists should not be
> "drifting" over them whether it's because of a lapse of attention or
> whatever.
>
> Without those separators motorist routinely drift into onto the shoulder
> or painted bike lane, or decide to park there to take a call, make a
> delivery, do drop-offs or pick-ups, etc.

Indeed it’s also a much like Frank a Vehicular cycling group, this said the
argument for wider lanes so cargo bikes etc can use them is a valid one.

>
> One incident of some idiot motorist damaging a piece of infrastructure
> is not a reason to proclaim that it's just terrible (well unless you're
> "he who must not be named").
>
> Another advantage of the separated bike lanes is that motorists drive
> slower and are forced to pay attention.
>

Can’t say I noticed that in the various ones locally with some they have
lost a lane but in those cases that’s central london and frankly you can
walk quicker at times!

But even out here can’t say I notice a slower pace more that they don’t
drift across to use the cycle lane to get in position for the junction
ahead, as it has bolted hard rubber?

https://www.zicla.com/en/zebra-family/

Though I’ve only seen them installed end on rather that diagonal as shown!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Ryder]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 20:48:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/16/2024 4:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/16/2024 3:24 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/16/2024 3:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

When local governments fail, a higher level government will rush in to
make everything worse.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the
government and I'm here to help.”
- Ronald Reagan

[Catrike Ryder]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 18:33:54 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/16/2024 1:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> Government services for the actual taxpayers? Surely you jest!
>>>
>>> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2835683/nyc-plans-to-give-pre-paid-credit-cards-to-migrants-to-tune-of-53-million/
>>
>> No wonder the borders are full of folks trying to get across. -) Free
>> money, dinner in the big hotels...
>
>It's terrible. Of course it's not actually true, like most "news" in the
>Washington Examiner or New York Post.
>
>No credit cards are being given out. It's debit cards that can be used
>for food and baby supplies. They will replace the food boxes that are
>currently being supplied to those in need and will save an estimated
>$7.2 million annually.
>
>Too many people that lack critical thinking skills will believe social
>media posts or stories in right-wing media outlets, without doing any
>fact checking.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/obama-cia-asked-foreign-agencies-to-illegally-spy-on-trump-associates-report/vi-BB1igvTs

[Zen Cycle]

On 2/16/2024 9:33 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/16/2024 1:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Government services for the actual taxpayers? Surely you jest!
>>>
>>> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2835683/nyc-plans-to-give-pre-paid-credit-cards-to-migrants-to-tune-of-53-million/
>>
>> No wonder the borders are full of folks trying to get across. -) Free
>> money, dinner in the big hotels...
>
> It's terrible. Of course it's not actually true, like most "news" in the
> Washington Examiner or New York Post.
>
> No credit cards are being given out. It's debit cards that can be used
> for food and baby supplies. They will replace the food boxes that are
> currently being supplied to those in need and will save an estimated
> $7.2 million annually.
>
> Too many people that lack critical thinking skills will believe social
> media posts or stories in right-wing media outlets, without doing any
> fact checking.

Right, like the free new cars allegedly being given to illegal immigrants

>
> Remember "Obama-phones." Started under President Reagan, for landline
> phones, then expanded to mobile phones under George W. Bush, you now
> have Republicans screaming about subsidizing lifeline service for
> low-income people, and trying to blame Obama for something he didn't start.
>

--

Add xx to reply

[AMuzi]

+1 to that!

[AMuzi]

Antipersonnel device against cyclists. Just more
overthinking overspending and impedimenta.

[Roger Merriman]

I don’t mind them I prefer them to wands and they do stop cars drifting
over and far from expensive road stuff.

Only I think seen them in one place.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

It's that and more. Lies on top of lies. We pay taxes so the
administrative State can manipulate facts into pogroms:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/2861182/a-tree-fell-in-washington-but-no-one-heard-it/

[Frank Krygowski]

"Help us! We have flooding!"
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/watch-florida-gov-ron-desantis-requests-aid-from-biden-as-hurricane-ian-makes-landfall

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2024 9:13 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/16/2024 10:45 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Isn’t that mainly a behaviour ie drivers shouldn’t be driving over the
>> barriers, or leaving bins etc on the road blocking the cyclelane.
>>
>> Change is always a surprise and takes time for people to get used to
>>
>> Plus maintenance ie roads should be cleaned/damage repaired, which folks
>> are paying for the service so if your not getting it?
>
> One of the major reasons for the protected bike lanes is, ironically,
> pointed out in Zach Kaplan's post: "...possible wheel, rim, and
> suspension damage for any motorists that have a lapse of attention and
> drift over them." Well yes, the idea is that motorists should not be
> "drifting" over them whether it's because of a lapse of attention or
> whatever.
>
> Without those separators motorist routinely drift into onto the shoulder
> or painted bike lane, or decide to park there to take a call, make a
> delivery, do drop-offs or pick-ups, etc.

When there is no bike lane stripe or barrier, the total width of asphalt
is the same, but the _clean_ width is greater. Motorists do occasionally
drive over the rightmost part of the pavement when there are no cyclists
there. The motorists' tires and moving air tend to kick debris off the
road. Cyclists should give thanks for a service they provide for free.

With a paint stripe, the debris layer begins maybe 6" to 12" to the
right of the stripe. With concrete barriers, it begins immediately at
the barrier. That's unless the jurisdiction spent money for equipment
and manpower to keep things swept, which is very rare IME.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/17/2024 6:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 2/16/2024 9:33 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 2/16/2024 1:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Government services for the actual taxpayers? Surely you jest!
>>>>
>>>> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2835683/nyc-plans-to-give-pre-paid-credit-cards-to-migrants-to-tune-of-53-million/
>>>
>>> No wonder the borders are full of folks trying to get across. -) Free
>>> money, dinner in the big hotels...
>>
>> It's terrible. Of course it's not actually true, like most "news" in
>> the Washington Examiner or New York Post.
>>
>> No credit cards are being given out. It's debit cards that can be used
>> for food and baby supplies. They will replace the food boxes that are
>> currently being supplied to those in need and will save an estimated
>> $7.2 million annually.
>>
>> Too many people that lack critical thinking skills will believe social
>> media posts or stories in right-wing media outlets, without doing any
>> fact checking.
>
> Right, like the free new cars allegedly being given to illegal immigrants

I wonder how many of those rumors are started by Russian troll farms.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I for one had not heard nor read that.
The long list of outrages is enough without writing fiction.

[Roger Merriman]

This is all true but in my experience the debris comes from motorists, the
old cycleway which is some distance from the road bar one flyover where it
gets a light coating in glass/plastic and sand!

But rest of it stays fairly clean only needing really vegetation cut back,
or leaves swept away which seems to happen maybe twice a year? Certainly
lot less than the parallel road, which you’ll see sweepers multiple times a
year rather than a man and cart, let alone having to fix/clean up
infrastructure after car crashes which are reasonably frequent as busy plus
folks in a rush.

It even uses the old road on one brief section under the Motorway and
roundabout which apart from vegetation taking over the footways, the road
surface is clear.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Ryder]

+1

[Frank Krygowski]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/17/2024 12:35 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>

>> When there is no bike lane stripe or barrier, the total width of asphalt
>> is the same, but the _clean_ width is greater. Motorists do occasionally
>> drive over the rightmost part of the pavement when there are no cyclists
>> there. The motorists' tires and moving air tend to kick debris off the
>> road. Cyclists should give thanks for a service they provide for free.
>>
>> With a paint stripe, the debris layer begins maybe 6" to 12" to the
>> right of the stripe. With concrete barriers, it begins immediately at
>> the barrier. That's unless the jurisdiction spent money for equipment
>> and manpower to keep things swept, which is very rare IME.
>>
> This is all true but in my experience the debris comes from motorists, the
> old cycleway which is some distance from the road bar one flyover where it
> gets a light coating in glass/plastic and sand!
>
> But rest of it stays fairly clean only needing really vegetation cut back,
> or leaves swept away which seems to happen maybe twice a year?

Correct, most (not all) obstructions and debris have to do with
motoring, so paths well separated from roadways have much less. But IME
those well separated paths are much more seldom installed, probably
because of land acquisition problems and costs. And if they are still
closely parallel to the roadway, they cause problems at intersections,
where cyclists will be crossing side streets in surprising locations
where turning motorists are accelerating away from their turns.

The segregation demands I hear are almost always for bike lanes that use
the original roadway pavement, but are "protected" by at the very least,
paint stripes. The loudest cries are for posts and/or concrete. That
sort of facility does fall victim to road debris.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Those seem to get cleaned fairly regularly, or at least I have seen the wee
sweeper vans being used. This said at urban speeds the debris doesn’t seem
to spray that far, I’d expect the Embankment for example to be largely
clear for that reason as it’s mostly separated a few feet so enough to be
clear or motor debris, and indeed I can’t recall seeing anything other than
a few leaves in the Autumn.

Others with less distance separated them would get more spray and require
more frequent cleaning though lot of these not only are major routes in but
touristy in some sections ie they will be cleaned very frequently and have
rapid responses to any reports.

As with most things you have to plan these things out which include
maintenance and cleaning. Or your setting yourself up to fail.

Roger Merriman

[sms]

On 2/17/2024 3:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

<snip>

> Right, like the free new cars allegedly being given to illegal immigrants

Donald Trump said that Democrats want to give illegal immigrants cars.
This was on October 18th 2018 in Mesa Arizona. He did not say that they
were necessarily new cars, but he did ask if the cars would be Rolls Royces.

Trump says a lot of stupid things, and unfortunately some of his minions
believe him.

[sms]

On 2/16/2024 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Yes, you may "know" this and I may "know" this, but, more and more,
> largely through the advent of the Internet, what the average guy knows
> is often not the same thing.

<snip>

True. Sadly, too many people believe the fake news from right-wing
publications like The Washington Examiner, Washington Times, New York
Post, and the Epoch times.

Anytime a story seems far-fetched you can be pretty certain that you're
not getting the whole story and it's a good idea to run it through a
fact checker, at least if you actually care to know the truth.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/17/2024 6:20 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> As with most things you have to plan these things out which include
> maintenance and cleaning. Or your setting yourself up to fail.

Yes. It would be a bit better if they would plan and budget for
maintenance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Ryder]

On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 17:26:21 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/16/2024 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Yes, you may "know" this and I may "know" this, but, more and more,
>> largely through the advent of the Internet, what the average guy knows
>> is often not the same thing.
>
><snip>
>
>True. Sadly, too many people believe the fake news from right-wing
>publications like The Washington Examiner, Washington Times, New York
>Post, and the Epoch times.
>
>Anytime a story seems far-fetched you can be pretty certain that you're
>not getting the whole story and it's a good idea to run it through a
>fact checker, at least if you actually care to know the truth.

Do you mean like the Trump_Russia_Piss_recordings?"

[Roger Merriman]

Since cycle infrastructure tends to be urban roads so do tend to get
regular cleaning both the road way and pavement, and if not? Why not?

Yes London has some mini sweeper vans they can use on the segregated
cycleways but I’ve seen them cleaned pavements etc as well so clearly not
just for them.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yup, that, and democrats are trying to take your guns, biden wants open borders, the government is giving free cars to illegal immigrants, there's a pizza place in washing DC where deocrats a running a child sex slve ring....the list goes on.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/18/2024 5:54 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 2/17/2024 6:20 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> As with most things you have to plan these things out which include
>>> maintenance and cleaning. Or your setting yourself up to fail.
>>
>> Yes. It would be a bit better if they would plan and budget for
>> maintenance.
>>
>
> Since cycle infrastructure tends to be urban roads so do tend to get
> regular cleaning both the road way and pavement, and if not? Why not?

Roads in our area seem to get swept twice per year. That's enough for
motor vehicle passage, since car tires are not harmed by (say) 1/4" bits
of broken glass. It's not enough for bike facilities.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

To be clear, my comment pertained to the snipped subject,
"free new cars allegedly being given to illegal immigrants",
not to the perhaps negligible Russian web efforts.

IMHO Russian and other post-Soviet criminals are extremely
skilled and ruthlessly effective in financial manipulation
and web wrecking but not so much in opinion influence. Your
opinion may differ, which is fine, as much is speculative in
that regard.

[AMuzi]

On 2/17/2024 7:19 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/17/2024 3:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Right, like the free new cars allegedly being given to
>> illegal immigrants
>
> Donald Trump said that Democrats want to give illegal
> immigrants cars. This was on October 18th 2018 in Mesa
> Arizona. He did not say that they were necessarily new cars,
> but he did ask if the cars would be Rolls Royces.
>
> Trump says a lot of stupid things, and unfortunately some of
> his minions believe him.
>

AFAIK you are right; there are no government programs for
free autos at this time. There are charities doing that now:
https://www.ridesforrefugees.org/

[AMuzi]

On 2/17/2024 7:26 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/16/2024 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Yes, you may "know" this and I may "know" this, but, more
>> and more,
>> largely through the advent of the Internet, what the
>> average guy knows
>> is often not the same thing.
>
> <snip>
>
> True. Sadly, too many people believe the fake news from
> right-wing publications like The Washington Examiner,
> Washington Times, New York Post, and the Epoch times.
>
> Anytime a story seems far-fetched you can be pretty certain
> that you're not getting the whole story and it's a good idea
> to run it through a fact checker, at least if you actually
> care to know the truth.
>

Rant duly noted.

Then again, apparently people who "read" the New York Times
lack comprehension or retention as a brief summary of their
recent reportage (and WaPo's) in March 2017 caused an uproar
when consolidated into a brief summary:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/03/05/mark_levin_the_evidence_is_overwhelming_that_obama_spied_on_trump.html#!

[AMuzi]

Exactly.

The Administrative State within our US government is more a
threat to the nation than all the Russians together:

https://nypost.com/2024/02/13/news/cia-and-foreign-intelligence-agencies-illegally-targeted-26-trump-associates-before-2016-russia-collusion-claims-report/

[AMuzi]

uh, you conflated actual policy positions with pure idiotic
fantasy there.

[Roger Merriman]

If true that’s quite significantly less than london or even surrounding
areas sweep/litter pick etc which is at least monthly.

Nor limited to places like London or home countries even the Welsh Valley
towns which are closer to Youngstown ie coal and steel towns very similarly
date of founding and so on, and largest is close ish to Youngstown in size.

Even Tom’s hell hole gets regularly street cleaning would seem! Ie at least
twice a month, this seems to be a Youngstown or perhaps rust belt thing?
I’m aware that American city can get more dilapidated due to well political
choices.

That’s not to say that for example the Welsh Valleys aren’t in places Grim
and have empty streets and so on, but services are generally maintained.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I never saw Trump say anything about it but I did hear Gavin Loathsome say that they should have cars so that they could get to work. And my next door neighbors turned up with new cars - they aren't new anymore but they were after they got here. California now has a $68 BILLION deficit and states are not supposed to have deficits. California only has a $300 Billion gross domestic product now and every day more and more businesses are running for other states. Famous restaurants are closing by the dozens. Breakfast joints are even getting scarce. I looked for a place yesterday morning as I tried to take my wife out to breakfast every place had lines out the doors and waiting in the rain. I finally remembered a little Vietnamese place that had a seating. But despite being the cheapest place around, the cost of bacon and eggs, coffee and tea, was $30

[Tom Kunich]

Steven, wake up. It was NOT a myth that California taxpayers were paying for cars for illegal aliens. How the hell can you not know that when my NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS got new cars! These people are washing dishes in restaurants! How do they get a new Ford and Honda SUV?

[Tom Kunich]

Are you REALLY that stupid? https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/03/14/biden-announces-new-gun-control-measures-heres-what-his-executive-order-will-do/?sh=1d6105bf4db0

Funny how the Supreme Court has had something like TEN gun control bills that they have had to turn back! I suggest that your mental condition is now so low that there isn't anything you won't lie about. Until the Republicans announced the FISA bill coming into Congress, the Democrats wanted to monitor EVERY single communication in this country and ALREADY the CIA is monitoring every single communication outside of the US. You claim to be an EE and you will deny that the FISA bill isn't to monitor YOUR communications. And education has turned to absolute garbage under the Democrats. They want kids to NOT know how to read and write. YOU are and idiot of the first water!

[Tom Kunich]

These people do not understand what is going on and they DO NOT BELIEVE it is happening. They are monitoring EVERY communication in the world and they don't believe it is possible.

[Catrike Ryder]

+1

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/18/2024 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 17, 2024 at 5:19:14 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
>>
>> Donald Trump said that Democrats want to give illegal immigrants cars.
>> This was on October 18th 2018 in Mesa Arizona. He did not say that they
>> were necessarily new cars, but he did ask if the cars would be Rolls Royces.
>>
>> Trump says a lot of stupid things, and unfortunately some of his minions
>> believe him.
>

> I never saw Trump say anything about it but I did hear Gavin Loathsome say that they should have cars so that they could get to work. And my next door neighbors turned up with new cars - they aren't new anymore but they were after they got here.

Did you ask your neighbors about their new cars? Seems easy enough to do.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/18/2024 12:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Steven, wake up. It was NOT a myth that California taxpayers were paying for cars for illegal aliens. How the hell can you not know that when my NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS got new cars! These people are washing dishes in restaurants! How do they get a new Ford and Honda SUV?

Did you ask them? Seems easy enough, if you can be temporarily civil.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/18/2024 1:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> These people do not understand what is going on and they DO NOT BELIEVE it is happening. They are monitoring EVERY communication in the world and they don't believe it is possible.

Better stop posting, Tom!!!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

But the idiotic fantasies got tons of publicity and doubtlessly
generated millions of votes for Trump. It also generated an armed
assault on a pizza parlor.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pizzagate-gunman-edgar-maddison-welch-sentenced-four-years-prison-n775621

It might be helpful if those on the right who were more logical would
call out such nonsense. Please don't pretend it has no consequences.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/18/2024 12:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 2/18/2024 5:54 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Since cycle infrastructure tends to be urban roads so do tend to get
>>> regular cleaning both the road way and pavement, and if not? Why not?
>>
>> Roads in our area seem to get swept twice per year. That's enough for
>> motor vehicle passage, since car tires are not harmed by (say) 1/4" bits
>> of broken glass. It's not enough for bike facilities.
>>
> If true that’s quite significantly less than london or even surrounding
> areas sweep/litter pick etc which is at least monthly.

>...

>
> Even Tom’s hell hole gets regularly street cleaning would seem!

I don't know about the street sweeping schedule where Tom lives.
Actually, it would be interesting to hear from several people in
different areas. Ours happens mid- to late spring, apparently to get the
gravel off the road. (A couple years ago my wife had a low speed fall on
an early spring city ride. From a stop sign, she started into a right
turn but slipped out on a small pile of gravel.)

> ... this seems to be a Youngstown or perhaps rust belt thing?

> I’m aware that American city can get more dilapidated due to well political
> choices.

I'd say it's a financial choice, and for roads, a fairly logical one.
I've heard many motorist complaints about potholes, but I've never heard
a motorist complain about gravel or other debris on roads. If one more
city-wide street sweeping means 500 fewer potholes repaired, the
sweeping won't get done.

It makes sense to an elected official or to a city administrator to take
care of the biggest groups of people that generate the most reasonable
complaints. Bicyclists are not at that top of that list.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 10:33:26 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Great news!

Re the above report, which stats in part,

"--– according to a report published Monday on Michael Shellenberger’s
Public Substack.

The report by independent journalists Shellenberger, Matt Taibbi and
Alex Gutentag has not been confirmed by The Post. "

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Places that sweep and sweep often are not sweeping for bikes, even in
london. It’s all the other reasons such as pollution run off, and generally
keeping the place clean after all in some areas will be litter as well as
road debris.

Potholes are fairly common in uk, yet roads do get swept essentially
sweeping the roads is relatively cheap service to run, fixing potholes
isn’t and frankly at that point probably means the entire surface needs
replaced which definitely isn’t cheap.

Roger Merriman

[sms]

On 2/18/2024 5:35 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> Yup, that, and democrats are trying to take your guns, biden wants open borders, the government is giving free cars to illegal immigrants, there's a pizza place in washing DC where deocrats a running a child sex slve ring....the list goes on.

There are actually people that believe these things. It's hard to fathom.

I'm currently listening to "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich"
audiobook. The things that the disaffected class in Germany believed are
startlingly similar to the things that Trump voters believe. Facts don't
matter. They believe publications that play on their fears.

[sms]

On 2/18/2024 2:54 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> Yes London has some mini sweeper vans they can use on the segregated
> cycleways but I’ve seen them cleaned pavements etc as well so clearly not
> just for them.
>
> Roger Merriman

"He who must not be named" saw a protected bicycle lane that had debris
in it and automatically extrapolated that instance to all protected
bicycle lanes. It suited his purpose to do that.

[Catrike Ryder]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 16:26:48 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/18/2024 5:35 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Yup, that, and democrats are trying to take your guns, biden wants open borders, the government is giving free cars to illegal immigrants, there's a pizza place in washing DC where deocrats a running a child sex slve ring....the list goes on.
>
>There are actually people that believe these things. It's hard to fathom.
>
>I'm currently listening to "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich"
>audiobook. The things that the disaffected class in Germany believed are
>startlingly similar to the things that Trump voters believe.

... for instance?

> Facts don't
>matter. They believe publications that play on their fears.

<chuckle> I wonder what publications this guy reads to get information
about what Trump voters believe.

https://news.yahoo.com/democrat-says-trump-hand-keys-183304843.html

[Catrike Ryder]

It would have been "helpful" if those on the left would have called
out the leftist media lies, like the Russia_Trump_piss_recording lies.

Well, actually they couldn't because they believed it all was true.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39592010
The fact-checking site Snopes told BBC Trending radio that in the past
week, for example, they have debunked many more anti-Republican party
stories than pro-Republican ones.

https://amac.us/newsline/society/fake-news-liberal-medias-worst-lies-of-the-2022-elections/

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/10/20/america_is_drowning_in_the_lies_of_the_left_144494.html#!

https://www.westernjournal.com/5-left-wing-lies-twitter-refuses-fact-check/

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/top-10-lies-liberal-media-michael-goodwin

[zen cycle]

That's a pretty big "if"

>

[zen cycle]

You're as bad as shitstain at posting op ed pieces as fact.

[zen cycle]

<snicker>
All he had to do was watch trump at a rally

https://apnews.com/article/trump-nato-foreign-aid-russia-2b8054a9fe185eec34c2c541cece655d

"No I would not protect you. In fact, I would encourage them to do
whatever the hell they want."

Floriduh dumbass - willfully ignorant useful idiot.

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 9:09:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> About the purported benefits of "protection" from auto traffic:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/897754635015080/posts/960457842078092/
>
> You shouldn't need to be a Facebooker to read the post. It contains some
> interesting details about California laws that apparently give you
> special legal rights to avoid the worst of the "innovation."
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

That certainly doesn't look good until you discover that it is "Bicycle Day" in Alameda. One day a year and set up by the city counsel. The attached message is about a street in Oakland that is only about 5 miles long. It parallels the freeway and consequently you have people driving at freeway speeds. You have stupid roads like that everywhere. Even in Youngstown.

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 10:45:28 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > About the purported benefits of "protection" from auto traffic:
> >
> > https://www.facebook.com/groups/897754635015080/posts/960457842078092/
> >
> > You shouldn't need to be a Facebooker to read the post. It contains some
> > interesting details about California laws that apparently give you
> > special legal rights to avoid the worst of the "innovation."
> >

> Isn’t that mainly a behaviour ie drivers shouldn’t be driving over the
> barriers, or leaving bins etc on the road blocking the cyclelane.
>
> Change is always a surprise and takes time for people to get used to
>
> Plus maintenance ie roads should be cleaned/damage repaired, which folks
> are paying for the service so if your not getting it?
>
> Roger Merriman

I can take you right to that spot. And damage like that lasts maybe one day at the longest. That can occur anywhere.,

[sms]

There is no law against an illegal immigrant purchasing a car, new or used.

Neither California, nor any other state, is providing illegal immigrants
with new cars.

And of course "he who must not be named" has no idea as to whether his
neighbors are illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, or not immigrants at
all.

<https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/conservative-politicians-commentators-recirculate-old-falsehood-on-aid-for-immigrants/>.

[Roger Merriman]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 2/18/2024 2:54 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Yes London has some mini sweeper vans they can use on the segregated
>> cycleways but I’ve seen them cleaned pavements etc as well so clearly not
>> just for them.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> "He who must not be named" saw a protected bicycle lane that had debris
> in it and automatically extrapolated that instance to all protected
> bicycle lanes. It suited his purpose to do that.
>

I’m unconvinced that even in Youngstown street cleaning is so lax debris
and rubbish would build up fairly quickly, clog drainage and so on.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Varies greatly from one neighborhood to another within a city:

Chicago for example:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/498984833715941241/

has a system for that. Cyclists call 311, and then City
employees get paid to not respond!

https://chi.streetsblog.org/2021/09/22/whos-protecting-and-maintaining-protected-bike-lanes

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/19/2024 4:08 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/19/2024 4:36 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>> On 2/18/2024 1:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/18/2024 12:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Steven, wake up. It was NOT a myth that California taxpayers were
>>>> paying for cars for illegal aliens. How the hell can you not know
>>>> that when my NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS got new cars! These people are
>>>> washing dishes in restaurants! How do they get a new Ford and Honda
>>>> SUV?
>>>
>>> Did you ask them? Seems easy enough, if you can be temporarily civil.
>>
>> That's a pretty big "if"
>
> There is no law against an illegal immigrant purchasing a car, new or used.

I suspect the guy who bought my dearly beloved Honda Civic Station Wagon
was an illegal immigrant. I say that because he was the one who was
enchanted with the car, who examined it and test rode it, etc. But his
wife was the person who actually completed the transaction and title
transfer. (OK, for hair-splitters, I guess he didn't purchase it; she
bought it for him.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't know what you mean by "quickly." But it's not normally rubbish,
as in things tossed out of cars, etc. It is normally debris, such as
gravel, some broken glass, leaves in autumn, branches and sticks from
trees, etc. And it doesn't have to accumulate quickly when it's roughly
six months between sweepings.

I'm sorry you remain unconvinced. Want some photos? (Some are very old,
shot with a low-res camera.)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/5103443110/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/5102849733/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/5103442512/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/5102849187/in/dateposted-public/

How many photos would you like?



--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]