Latest test tires TOUR magazine

[Lou Holtman]

Just read the latest tire test in TOUR magazine. They tested 28 mm tires at 35 km/hr and total weight of 85 kg. They asked a number of tire manufactures to send in their high end tire and a medium end tire. The medium end tire cost on average half to two third the cost of their high end tire. I found the differences remarkable. Everyone that uses a power meter knows that increasing average power with 10-15 watts is more than significant. Again the Continental GP5000 is a no brainer.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RNAuxNK8XZu4wmNQA

Lou, life is too short to ride shitty tires.

[jbeattie]

Didn't they test any Michelin? That's weird.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

It is what it is. Maybe because Michelins are not very popular over here. I don't know.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

AFAIK our cycling magazines seldom have such data. I'm a bit jealous.

Was the rolling resistance test a standard rotating drum test?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

I've moved to all Schwalbe, good to see how well the Pro One did.

[Lou Holtman]

You would like that magazine. In every issue also nice travel stories.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Also a popular tire here. They also make very good gravel tires.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

How are they measuring? I agree 10/15 watts is fairly huge.

Roger Merriman.

[sms]

I don't know about Continental, but Schwalbe has been struggling to keep
up with demand for tires and tubes, with popular products being out of
stock for months, then briefly becoming available before going out of
stock again.

[Lou Holtman]

Succes:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/gTxSocL23H3e2xsj8

Lou

[Axel Reichert]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:

> I've moved to all Schwalbe, good to see how well the Pro One did.

Runner-up after the Conti 5000, IIRC.

Axel

[jbeattie]

BTW, this is the test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgOUsjzkT5I&ab_channel=TOURRennrad-Magazin

Actually the Specialized Turbo cotton had lower RR than the Conti GP5000 on rough pavement and apparently a watt or so less on smooth pavement, but the winner over-all is the Schwalbe Pro One -- if you want a tire with good grip (which I do). But which Pro One? There are three of them -- tube, tubeless and TT. https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/racing_tires They're all wickedly expensive in the US.

My German is rudimentary at best. Were these all tubed tires? And I assume that all tests were run with the same tubes?

-- Jay Beattie.

[James]

All those brands and a more here.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews

--
JS

[Lou Holtman]

Well they also judged the tires on 'Pannensicherheit', 'Trockenhaftung' und 'Gewicht'. (flat resistance, grip (dry) and weight. According to their rules the Continental GP5000 was the 'Testsieger' (winner). The Schwalbe Pro One was the close runner up. All the tests were performed with 137 gr Butyl tube (heavy), 5.5 bar, 35 km/hr and 85 kg weight.
Here are all results. The lower the number, the better the tire:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/28KExMfx8jo6HdmJ6

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/28/2021 2:55 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 28, 2021 at 1:33:12 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:
>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I've moved to all Schwalbe, good to see how well the Pro One did.
>>> Runner-up after the Conti 5000, IIRC.
>>>
>>> Axel

>> BTW, this is the test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgOUsjzkT5I&ab_channel=TOURRennrad-Magazin ...

Interesting. But ...

> ... All the tests were performed with 137 gr Butyl tube (heavy), 5.5 bar, 35 km/hr and 85 kg weight.

> Here are all results. The lower the number, the better the tire:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/28KExMfx8jo6HdmJ6

The 35 km/hr tells me it was a rotating drum test.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I don't know where it is now but the tests I read showed a rather startling advantage to the Vittoria Corsa G+. Almost half of what a Continental GP5000 was.

[Frank Krygowski]

Ah, I think I see. They measure the _force_ of rolling resistance using
the pendulum rig, then multiply that force (probably assuming it's
constant) with the assumed 35 km/hr velocity to get the power lost in
Watts at that speed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

This blog is interesting and relevant:
https://blog.silca.cc/part-4b-rolling-resistance-and-impedance


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

As an electrical engineer, I don’t like their use of the term impedance.
Impedance implies a combination of lossy (resistive) and lossless
(reactive) elements, while this is just describing two different lossy
elements which combine to produce a non-linear loss.

[Joerg]

No, no, Impedance is a rock band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=492iAQU9aJY

And another in Russia but less rock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMyKUZTDwjo

--
Regards, Joerg (also an EE)

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Joerg]

On 8/28/21 8:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 4:33:12 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:
>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I've moved to all Schwalbe, good to see how well the Pro One did.
>>> Runner-up after the Conti 5000, IIRC.
>>>
>>> Axel
>> BTW, this is the test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgOUsjzkT5I&ab_channel=TOURRennrad-Magazin
>>
>> Actually the Specialized Turbo cotton had lower RR than the Conti GP5000 on rough pavement and apparently a watt or so less on smooth pavement, but the winner over-all is the Schwalbe Pro One -- if you want a tire with good grip (which I do). But which Pro One? There are three of them -- tube, tubeless and TT. https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/racing_tires They're all wickedly expensive in the US.

Bicycle tires in general are outlandishly pricey when compared to motor
vehicle tires on a dollar per mile basis.

>>
>> My German is rudimentary at best. Were these all tubed tires? And I assume that all tests were run with the same tubes?
>
> I don't know where it is now but the tests I read showed a rather startling advantage to the Vittoria Corsa G+. Almost half of what a Continental GP5000 was.
>

To me the most important factor is dollars per mile. I get 1200mi out of
a Vittoria Zaffiro. Always waiting for a sale, I usually buy them under
$20. So about $0.016/mile. That's for the rear tire, the front last much
longer, about 4x.

The 2nd important parameter is side wall quality. While I did milk
2500mi out of a Conti Gatorskin (alas, at $45 a pop) three out of four
prematurely dropped out with side wall failure. One had less than 1000mi
on it. That's when I gave up on them.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Lou Holtman]

To me the least important part is price per km. The most important part is riding quality, after that flat resistance and durability. Replaced a 32 mm GP5000 after 5000 km and no flats on my gravel bike (road use). They cost here €40 for a 32 mm version. That is €0.008/km. Not that it matters but for that kind of money I am not going to ride shitty tires.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

I’m far from convinced that for the end user that drum tests are useful in
any way.

Even with all the variables seeing how they perform on the road, either
with or without power meter. Is a more useful metric I have the added
handling being a gravel bike ie how much grip etc.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

I can't imagine worrying about the per-mile expense of bike equipment.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I can only imagine that after whacking out the $12,000 for the new
Mercedes bicycle one might be a bit short, thus the necessary
economizing on tires (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Gee, that bike made quite an impression on you. I'm sure Joerg doesn't own one.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 8/28/21 8:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 4:33:12 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:
>>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I've moved to all Schwalbe, good to see how well the Pro One did.
>>>> Runner-up after the Conti 5000, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> Axel
>>> BTW, this is the test:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgOUsjzkT5I&ab_channel=TOURRennrad-Magazin
>>>
>>> Actually the Specialized Turbo cotton had lower RR than the Conti
>>> GP5000 on rough pavement and apparently a watt or so less on smooth
>>> pavement, but the winner over-all is the Schwalbe Pro One -- if you
>>> want a tire with good grip (which I do). But which Pro One? There are
>>> three of them -- tube, tubeless and TT.
>>> https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/racing_tires They're all
>>> wickedly expensive in the US.
>
>
> Bicycle tires in general are outlandishly pricey when compared to motor
> vehicle tires on a dollar per mile basis.
>

Your not comparing like for like. Car etc tires are generally equivalent to
commute types, road/MTB etc are performance focused, you can buy
performance focused car tires but these will empty ones wallet, and wear at
a terrifying rate!

>>>
>>> My German is rudimentary at best. Were these all tubed tires? And I
>>> assume that all tests were run with the same tubes?
>>
>> I don't know where it is now but the tests I read showed a rather
>> startling advantage to the Vittoria Corsa G+. Almost half of what a
>> Continental GP5000 was.
>>
>
> To me the most important factor is dollars per mile. I get 1200mi out of
> a Vittoria Zaffiro. Always waiting for a sale, I usually buy them under
> $20. So about $0.016/mile. That's for the rear tire, the front last much
> longer, about 4x.
>
> The 2nd important parameter is side wall quality. While I did milk
> 2500mi out of a Conti Gatorskin (alas, at $45 a pop) three out of four
> prematurely dropped out with side wall failure. One had less than 1000mi
> on it. That's when I gave up on them.
>

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Great argument for 12 speed chain!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too early.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too early.

Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
<https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 8:42:03 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too early.
> Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>

That setup had lower power transfer, faster wear and higher weight.

[AMuzi]

On 8/29/2021 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too early.
>
> Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>
>
>

pfffft.
There are actual Italian products:
https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Mechanical_Groupsets/ekar/gravel2

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 9:41:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/29/2021 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too early.
> >
> > Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
> > <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>
> >
> >
> pfffft.
> There are actual Italian products:
> https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Mechanical_Groupsets/ekar/gravel2

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/29/2021 12:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/29/2021 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too
>>> early.
>>
>> Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>
>>
>>
>
>
> pfffft.
> There are actual Italian products:
> https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Mechanical_Groupsets/ekar/gravel2

Still too few cogs.

And what's with the crude tooth count increments?
9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36
A sudden jump from one tooth difference all the way up to TWO tooth
differences?

When, oh when, will they finally give 1.5 tooth differences between
adjacent cogs?

But I admit the 44-9 combination is tempting. That's like 130+ gear
inches, to gain additional speed during free fall.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Seems intuitively a typical driven gear tooth progression
with a tip of the hat to your half tooth comment. 9-1/2t is
exactly where that would help!

I did not plot it but as you well know linear change of
tooth count gives nonlinear progression for gearing.

From 9t to 10t is roughly 11%, 12t to 13t is 8-1/2%, 25t to
26t is 4%, 30t to 31t is 3.33, etc.

(off the top of my head numbers; a gear chart is handy for this)

[AMuzi]

On 8/29/2021 12:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I dropped that into my spreadsheet for gearing with 700-50C
in meters:

11.073
9.966
9.060
8.305
7.666
7.119
6.229
5.537
4.983
4.333
3.691
3.215
2.768

Classic race bike gearing when Mr Beattie and I were young
and beautiful was about 4 to 8 meters for comparison.
(700-23C with 52-42 and 13~21)

[Tom Kunich]

Don't you now feel like you're explaining air to a fish?

[Frank Krygowski]

Mine was 52-47 hchainrings, 14-30 or so freewheel (once I changed it) so
same high, slightly lower low. About 8 meters to 3.4 meters.

The first "ten speed" I ever bought came with those half-step
chainrings, but a freewheel that wasted lots of gears as duplicates.
Once I learned a little bit, I bought freewheels that made perfect use
of the steps, with wide range and no duplicates. That was when Nashbar
would sell any freewheel cogs one wanted.

Back in my Fortran programming days (before spreadsheets) I wrote a
program to print out a gear table and logarithmic plot of gears when
given chainring and cog tooth counts. Fred DeLong got a copy, and was
politely thankful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Do you mean Bike Warehouse? When was your first ten speed? Nashbar was like '81.

I only knew Bike Warehouse as a mail-order company with stock freewheels, and the custom freewheel thing was something I had to get at PAB or a few other local shops with peg boards filled with Regina cogs. However, by '80, Bike Nashbar was selling single cogs for freehubs, e.g. https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/catalogs/BikeWarehouse-80/BW07.html My first freehub was a 7sp Dura Ace with stack 'em up Uniglide cogs. It was a great system -- but abandoned. That's when I shifted to Ultegra. With current OTC wide-range cassettes, like a 12-30, there really is no need for a custom cassette anymore. Most of the gear range is covered, particularly for someone who doesn't care about jumps. When you only have five cog choices (rather than 11, 12 or 13), you certainly have to be more strategic.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Perhaps the epitome of "conspicuous consumption" :-) But more to the
point, how much riding would one have to do to achieve a $0.016 cost
per mile :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:41:44 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/29/2021 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too early.
>>
>> Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>
>>
>>
>
>
>pfffft.
>There are actual Italian products:
>https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Mechanical_Groupsets/ekar/gravel2

Coupled with a triple chain ring that should satisfy most folks for
the next year or so (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 13:49:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/29/2021 12:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/29/2021 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too
>>>> early.
>>>
>>> Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
>>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> pfffft.
>> There are actual Italian products:
>> https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Mechanical_Groupsets/ekar/gravel2
>
>Still too few cogs.
>
>And what's with the crude tooth count increments?
>9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36
>A sudden jump from one tooth difference all the way up to TWO tooth
>differences?
>
>When, oh when, will they finally give 1.5 tooth differences between
>adjacent cogs?
>
>But I admit the 44-9 combination is tempting. That's like 130+ gear
>inches, to gain additional speed during free fall.

At these tremendous speeds shouldn't one begin to worry about
coefficient of friction? After all, down hill, 100 rpm, 130+ gearing
and 19mm tires... and someone backs out of their driveway?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, it was Bike Warehouse back then. My first "ten speed" was 1972.

> Nashbar was like '81.

Yes, about then. Arni Nashbar explained to me and my friends why the
name change was needed. He said he was reluctant, but his lawyers told
him Bike Warehouse was too generic to be defensible as a trademark.

> I only knew Bike Warehouse as a mail-order company with stock freewheels, and the custom freewheel thing was something I had to get at PAB or a few other local shops with peg boards filled with Regina cogs.

I was still living down south, so this was before 1980. I remember being
on the phone with a BW catalog sales person specifying something very
unusual for my wife - four close spaced cogs, plus a big bail out cog.
He kept asking "Are you _sure_ that's what you want?" I was, and it
worked well for her.

> When you only have five cog choices (rather than 11, 12 or 13), you certainly have to be more strategic.

Agreed. I doubt very many people do logarithmic gear plots these days.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

... unless fashions change again!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

Linear plots.
<https://www.bikecad.ca/gearing_data>

Linear or semi-log plots.
<https://mike-sherman.github.io/shift/>
Click on the "all in one" tab.
<https://mike-sherman.github.io/shift/shift_credits.html>

Let us do some plotting comrades.

[pH]

On 2021-08-27, Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just read the latest tire test in TOUR magazine. They tested 28 mm tires
at 35 km/hr and total weight of 85 kg. They asked a number of tire
manufactures to send in their high end tire and a medium end tire. The
medium end tire cost on average half to two third the cost of their high
end tire. I found the differences remarkable. Everyone that uses a power
meter knows that increasing average power with 10-15 watts is more than
significant. Again the Continental GP5000 is a no brainer.
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/RNAuxNK8XZu4wmNQA
>
> Lou, life is too short to ride shitty tires.

Yes, but the selection seems to grow smaller by the year.

We can only hope and pray that this foolish 700C fad dies away and we return
to the 27" standard that God intended.

Satan's hand is never still, it seems.

Wish I could find some nice Avocet's.....Hi, Jobst!....

pH in Aptos

[jbeattie]

Buy some 700C rims, and the world will by your tire oyster. I still have some Campy drop bolt(s) sitting around that I will sell you for a very reasonable price. There current production tires that are much nicer than the Avocets, although they were good tires for the time. I thought the contemporary Michelin SuperComp HDs were much better, and those tires are miles behind the best current tires -- except maybe for wet-weather grip in the lowest RR tires.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 21:30:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/29/2021 6:33 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:41:44 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/29/2021 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:16:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pfft. I'm waiting for 15 speeds in a 1x system. You guys bought too early.
>>>>
>>>> Would you settle for 13 speeds in 1x?
>>>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTDHXby3M>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> pfffft.
>>> There are actual Italian products:
>>> https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Mechanical_Groupsets/ekar/gravel2
>>
>> Coupled with a triple chain ring that should satisfy most folks for
>> the next year or so (:-)
>
>... unless fashions change again!

Well, then you go for broke - A Shimano 11 speed rear wheel coupled
with a triple crank chain wheels.

"Oh, I see you've got one of those new 12 speed bikes. Have a look at
my 33 speed" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

God wanted us to measure in cubits. 1 cubit = 444.25 mm = 17.49 inches.

[Tom Kunich]

After Vittoria moved their operations to Asia I would only buy Veloflex which were the Italian workers who originally composes Vittoria but they simply couldn't keep up with the original company in tire technology. The Corsa G series do not get flats except under exceptional circumstances and they wear very oddly - the surface tread does not wear away - the rubber under them do so you have to be careful that these tires do not wear out because there isn't any visible clues.

But then I started using Michelin and I am completely sold on the Pro series which is Pro4 presently. I mostly use the Power series since the Pro's are sold out all of the time. The Power doesn't have the traction of the Pro's but wear better and are probably more flat resistant. And the rolling resistance isn't so much higher than the Vittoria Corsa G that you notice it.

[Ralph Barone]

The problem is that every manufacturer’s cubit is a different length, and
it changes depending on who’s working on the QC bench that day.

[AMuzi]

Those sold well 6~8 years a go but 3x11 systems just dropped
off the earth since.

[Joerg]

On 8/29/21 6:23 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> On 8/28/21 8:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 4:33:12 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:
>>>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've moved to all Schwalbe, good to see how well the Pro One did.
>>>>> Runner-up after the Conti 5000, IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Axel
>>>> BTW, this is the test:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgOUsjzkT5I&ab_channel=TOURRennrad-Magazin
>>>>
>>>> Actually the Specialized Turbo cotton had lower RR than the Conti
>>>> GP5000 on rough pavement and apparently a watt or so less on smooth
>>>> pavement, but the winner over-all is the Schwalbe Pro One -- if you
>>>> want a tire with good grip (which I do). But which Pro One? There are
>>>> three of them -- tube, tubeless and TT.
>>>> https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/racing_tires They're all
>>>> wickedly expensive in the US.
>>
>>
>> Bicycle tires in general are outlandishly pricey when compared to motor
>> vehicle tires on a dollar per mile basis.
>>

> Your not comparing like for like. Car etc tires are generally equivalent to
> commute types, road/MTB etc are performance focused, you can buy
> performance focused car tires but these will empty ones wallet, and wear at
> a terrifying rate!


That may be but why then is hardly any cycling publication more geared
towards the utility rider? Many of us simply want to get from A to B. On
time, not late and with dirty hands from fixing another flat.

Anyhow, I found that lower cost tires can be quite reliable. In my case
the ones made in Thailand. Yeah, I might lose 20-30 Microseconds through
a curve versus the guy runing $100 tire, but so what.

BTW, the tires on a friend's Porsche 911 were quite high-end but cheaper
per mile than bicycle tires.

https://www.porscheofgreenville.com/porsche-911-tires.htm

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Frank Krygowski]

Why?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/30/2021 6:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 8/29/21 6:23 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bicycle tires in general are outlandishly pricey when compared to motor
>>> vehicle tires on a dollar per mile basis.
>>>
>> Your not comparing like for like. Car etc tires are generally
>> equivalent to
>> commute types, road/MTB etc are performance focused, you can buy
>> performance focused car tires but these will empty ones wallet, and
>> wear at
>> a terrifying rate!
>
> That may be but why then is hardly any cycling publication more geared
> towards the utility rider?

That's hardly surprising. There are hardly any consumer publications
devoted to other utility items. I've never seen "Refrigerator Weekly" or
"Washing Machines Illustrated." I doubt there's a magazine even in the
Netherlands devoted to upright Dutch utility bikes.

> Many of us simply want to get from A to B. On
> time, not late and with dirty hands from fixing another flat.

Those bikes exist and are for sale. You simply choose not to ride them.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Probably due to the ascendance of compact cranks. For most people riding on the road without a load, a compact gives them all the gears they need. If 34/32 is not low enough for the road, its time for a motor.

For loaded touring requiring a super low-low, 9sp is a more robust transmission.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/bikepacking-touring-bikes/520/520/p/24000/
https://tinyurl.com/2n2dh3t4
https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/2021-four-corners
The de facto domestic standard is 9sp on a Sora/Alvio triple with cable discs. Steel frames are popular.



-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

And so: Why the switch to "compact cranks"? And why change away from a
more robust transmission?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

2x12 compact sells better; simpler to use with great gear range.

[jbeattie]

Well, maybe I should have said "cheaper" rather than more robust. https://cyclingtips.com/2019/12/the-best-bicycle-chain-durability-and-efficiency-tested/ It appears that 11 and 12sp chains are outlasting classic 9sp chains. It may also be the case that 9sp chains are more common or that cassettes are more common. I don't know, but it could be the transmission equivalent of the 27" wheel being spec'd on touring bikes long after the 700C tires had become common under the assumption that if the bike breaks down in Toadsuck, you're more likely to find a 27" tire at the local Coast to Coast.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 7:42:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Frank! You above all people should know that they are half over-lapping ratios.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, a triple isn't a compact gearing and you end up with ratios FAR lower (faster?) than you need. I think that my latest Campy Compact Centaur 11 speed has more than enough ratios. And if you shift from the 50 to the 34 you have almost the same ratios by dropping two cogs. Not so near the slowest gears but over the widest range.

[Tom Kunich]

What do you mean by "more robust transmission"? Actually I believe the 11 speed chain and gear set are as strong if not stronger than the 9. They are much newer technology with better pins and rollers and materials.

[Tom Kunich]

Using new technology, a 2 x 9 would give the sports rider everything that a 2 x 12 does. But I will be the first to say that the Campy 11 speed derailleurs are a giant leap forward. Though Shimano had equal shifting for quite some time. My Dura Ace 11 speed manual group never missed a shift and that was no different than the 10 speed or their 9. Campy in the 10 was pretty critical of adjustment. And I seem to have spent a lot of time readjusting it to shift properly. Again. There was a sweet spot in which it would last for a very long time shifting properly but it had to be EXACTLY on. On either side of that it would shift well for perhaps a two week period and then require readjustment. But perhaps that long term good shifting was on one of the sets I totally rebuilt so that it didn't have any play in the ratchets.

[Tom Kunich]

I think that the modern technology in the 11+ chains really gives them so much flexibility that the things that cause chain wear in a 9 speed aren't there.

Frank likes his equipment and that's fine, but the comments that everyone else is crazy for using more modern technology is a bit out of hand. ("I NEVER SAID THAT" - no you implied it. Often and loudly)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/31/2021 4:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Frank likes his equipment and that's fine, but the comments that everyone else is crazy for using more modern technology is a bit out of hand. ("I NEVER SAID THAT" - no you implied it. Often and loudly)

Speak to what I actually said, not to what you imagined I said or meant.
Be specific.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Strange that everyone seems to have heard the same things I did.

[Frank Krygowski]

Be specific, Tom.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

"And so: Why the switch to "compact cranks"? And why change away from a
more robust transmission?"

The entire world is switching to compact cranks and you wonder why. I asked you what you considered a "more robust transmission" and got no response. But of these statements of yours are purely ancient history and no one does what you do any longer. "Sharon Martin says in Psych Central that “people who are manipulative, narcissistic and have a poor sense of self tend to repeatedly violate personal boundaries.”

[jbeattie]

I (not Frank) said 9sp was more robust but then posted a link to a chain wear test showing that modern 11sp chains were more robust than old 9sp chains. I don't know if current production 9sp with all the bells and whistles are longer or shorter lived than 11sp.

-- Jay Beattie

[Roger Merriman]

Triple unless it’s using a MTB cranks really doesn’t offer much over a
compact the “granny” ring being 30t and really nothing in it if you have a
sub compact (as I do) 30-46/32/48.

In terms of absolute gearing, unless you use MTB rings it’s marginally
lower if at all. Even a 34t compact is gives gearing that is give or take
in between 1st and 2nd cog on a triple/sub compact.

Fairly reasonable answers years back here.

<https://road.cc/content/feature/death-triple-chainset-221157>

And as the cassettes have got enough range to make 1x useable 3x is going
to struggle.

My old MTB used to be 3-9 and never had problems with it, in that form.

did admittedly switch it to 1-9 in its retirement as my commuter as I
didn’t need the range and the triple was a bit tedious on the commute.

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/1/2021 2:42 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:27:03 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/1/2021 12:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/31/2021 4:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank likes his equipment and that's fine, but the comments that everyone else is crazy for using more modern technology is a bit out of hand. ("I NEVER SAID THAT" - no you implied it. Often and loudly)
>>>> Speak to what I actually said, not to what you imagined I said or meant.
>>>> Be specific.
>>>
>>> Strange that everyone seems to have heard the same things I did.
>> Be specific, Tom.
>
> "And so: Why the switch to "compact cranks"? And why change away from a
> more robust transmission?"

You need to find an English teacher, to learn the difference between a
question and a statement of position.

> The entire world is switching to compact cranks and you wonder why.

Congratulations on making a correct statement, Tom. But I've never been
a slave to fashion; I've wondered about many fashionable trends. (Did
you wear an afro and sparkly clothes to dance at discos?)

> I asked you what you considered a "more robust transmission" and got no response.

True. I don't feel compelled to respond to many of your posts.

I've got 9 speed on only one low mileage bike. I can't personally judge
its robustness, but others here (including you, IIRC) have said that the
narrower cogs and chains of high cog counts are weaker and/or subject to
faster wear. That would make sense, considering elemental facts like
forces acting on smaller areas resulting in higher pressures or stresses.

Jay linked an article that found good wear results with high cog count
systems, but it seemed that was due to improved materials and
manufacturing. ISTM those processes could be applied to (say) 8 speed
cogs and chains and result in even better life. IOW, in an
apples-to-apples comparison, I still think fewer cogs would be more robust.

Andrew's response to my "why" question was essentially "2 x 11 (or
whatever) shifts easier and sells better." To me, that describes
marketing more than practicality.

But I admit I may be biased by experience. I remember when the cheapest
bikes came with one chainring. They were for the klutzes that couldn't
operate a front shifter. Two chainrings were obviously better - everyone
knew that. And if you had three chainrings, you could climb any hill
with any load.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I had that setup on the Felt F55X gravel bike I just sold. You could climb straight up with that.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, with the new chains ALL of the speeds have the same strength in tension. But the 11 and 12 maintain that strength over a wider spread because they are more flexible laterally.

Let's pretend that your questions weren't questioning the facts and in so doing implying rather directly the lack of truth of any statements to that effect.

Frank, every time you write you give the distinct impression that English is a second or third language that you never quite managed to master.

[jbeattie]

No, 2X11 is a better system for people who are not doing loaded touring, which is most people. Less complicated, fewer overlaps, and less likelihood of dropping the chain, particularly when shifting from the middle ring/big cog down to the small ring.

>
> But I admit I may be biased by experience. I remember when the cheapest
> bikes came with one chainring. They were for the klutzes that couldn't
> operate a front shifter. Two chainrings were obviously better - everyone
> knew that. And if you had three chainrings, you could climb any hill
> with any load.

The cheapest bikes came with no derailleurs, which had nothing to do with being a klutz. It had to do with being cheap. And a reasonable 2X11 -- say the Trek Checkpoint -- will get you a low 30/34 or a 23" gear and a high 46/11 or 109". How low do you need for a road bike?

-- Jay Beattie.

[pH]

On 2021-08-30, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/29/2021 7:44 PM, pH wrote:
>> On 2021-08-27, Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just read the latest tire test in TOUR magazine. They tested 28 mm tires
>> at 35 km/hr and total weight of 85 kg. They asked a number of tire
>> manufactures to send in their high end tire and a medium end tire. The
>> medium end tire cost on average half to two third the cost of their high
>> end tire. I found the differences remarkable. Everyone that uses a power
>> meter knows that increasing average power with 10-15 watts is more than
>> significant. Again the Continental GP5000 is a no brainer.
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/RNAuxNK8XZu4wmNQA
>>>
>>> Lou, life is too short to ride shitty tires.
>>
>> Yes, but the selection seems to grow smaller by the year.
>>
>> We can only hope and pray that this foolish 700C fad dies away and we return
>> to the 27" standard that God intended.
>>
>> Satan's hand is never still, it seems.
>
> God wanted us to measure in cubits. 1 cubit = 444.25 mm = 17.49 inches.

Ohhh...that's right! In that case I want to return to 1.54 cubit standard,
as God intended. And something other than the typical 0.07 cibit width
would be nice.

pH

[Roger Merriman]

Usefully low gearing though having steep stuff locally plus as autumn looms
will get wetter and slippery so hills will get less easy to,climb (gravel
well mud to be honest at that point!)

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 00:09:06 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

I read that the cubit varied in length from about 340 mm to 518 mm
depending on the period.
In addition in one period there were two cubits in use, a 6 hand cubit
used commonly and a 5 hand cubit used to measure religious fixtures.

Obviously if this was a God specified measurement then he/she/it must
have changed his/her/its mind from time to time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/1/2021 7:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Well, with the new chains ALL of the speeds have the same strength in tension. But the 11 and 12 maintain that strength over a wider spread because they are more flexible laterally.

I don't think strength in simple tension is an issue. That's not how
chains fail. I think broken chains are much more likely caused by
bending and twisting during shifts while tension is applied.

But I do wonder if you have any source for that statement of yours. It's
pretty common for you to pull "facts" out of your hat.

> Let's pretend that your questions weren't questioning the facts and in so doing implying rather directly the lack of truth of any statements to that effect.

I haven't questioned the fact that 2x gear trains are outselling 3x gear
trains. I'm asking why.

Part of my motivation is this, as already explained: For decades,
everybody always claimed more gears were always better. Suddenly that's
out the window, and it's considered a great idea to reduce one's gear
count by one third to one half.

It seems that we should be hearing palms slapping foreheads and shouts
of "We were wrong all along!" But we're not. Instead we're hearing
"Oooh, this is better!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/1/2021 7:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 2:41:05 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Andrew's response to my "why" question was essentially "2 x 11 (or
>> whatever) shifts easier and sells better." To me, that describes
>> marketing more than practicality.
>
> No, 2X11 is a better system for people who are not doing loaded touring, which is most people. Less complicated, fewer overlaps, and less likelihood of dropping the chain, particularly when shifting from the middle ring/big cog down to the small ring.

I can understand that some people just don't need low gears. It sounds
like our Deacon rides on a billiard table; and of course, there are
young'uns with thighs like tree trunks.

For those that do need low range, I guess I just don't get it. Even our
tandem (original half step TA cranks, something like 52-47-28) never
drops a chain during that shift - perhaps because I've got one of those
plastic anti-drop gizmos on that seat tube. But I don't have one on the
Cannondale or the other bikes, even the ones with the big drop from half
step to the granny cog.

And on non-half-step bikes (say 50-40-30 cranks) wouldn't a 40 to 30
shift be easier than a compact 50 to 30 or whatever?

>> But I admit I may be biased by experience. I remember when the cheapest
>> bikes came with one chainring. They were for the klutzes that couldn't
>> operate a front shifter. Two chainrings were obviously better - everyone
>> knew that. And if you had three chainrings, you could climb any hill
>> with any load.
>
> The cheapest bikes came with no derailleurs, which had nothing to do with being a klutz.

Sorry, I meant derailleur bikes. When and where we started riding, the
bike shops carried "five speeds" - same rear, but only one chainring.

> And a reasonable 2X11 -- say the Trek Checkpoint -- will get you a low 30/34 or a 23" gear and a high 46/11 or 109". How low do you need for a road bike?

The range is fine. The change in definition of what's "best" is
interesting to me. Remember, I'm the guy who once got mocked for having
a 32 or 34 tooth rear cog.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I agree that defining terms here is the crux of it. Right,
ultimate tensile strength is not the issue. Failure is
actually almost unknown in all modern chain where
installation errors or damage in use (kinked/bent link) are
ruled out.

Most riders are or should be more concerned with mileage to
wear point[1] which relates more to link/rivet/roller
design, hardness, hardness depth and finish than ultimate yield.

[1]Riders range from picayune to oblivious in what
constitutes 'worn'.

[AMuzi]

One might argue that loaded touring bikes and significant
climbs need below 1:1 and I agree with that. For which
triples and cassettes with 42, 48, 52t low are now standard
parts and commonplace.

OTOH your standard Campagnolo 2x12 set ships with 34x48 and
11~34 which is suitable to the greater bulk of bicycle riders.

[Ralph Barone]

EVERYBODY’S cubit was different. Mine is around 18.5” (470 mm).

[jbeattie]

Well, what is best for you isn't necessarily best for everyone else -- but the good news is that everyone can get what they want these days, at least in terms of gearing. In my near-death state, I still don't turn anything lower than a 34/30, the low gear on my gravel bike.

I made a leap into the modern era yesterday and for the first time used my Stages Dash computer. https://stagescycling.com/us/dash-gps-cycling-computer/ (Stages . . . it's the best). I went on a post-work, pre-diner ride with my wife. She was on her ebike, and I was on my gravel bike. A walloping 13.2 miles around the neighborhoods and down to Lake Oswego. This was my lunch ride/commute surrogate during COVID work-from-home era (before injury work-from-home era). 1600 feet of climbing. Who knew. And this wasn't even the West Hills. I'm going to start making tedious posts about elevation gain, nasty drivers and Gavin Lothesome. The good part about ride is that there were very few cars in the neighborhoods, and the roads are pretty good.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Actually, what's best for me isn't necessarily what's best for me... or
something like that. What I mean is, I've got triple cranks on four
bikes. At one time those made sense, but (except for uncommon hills on
the tandem) I haven't used a granny ring for a couple years, at least.
Maybe once a year I'll shift to it to make sure things are still adjusted.

So why are they there? I used those bikes for loaded tours. The oldest
bike hasn't done that since about 1985 - but why bother to take it off?
It weighs nothing.

And I know there are lots of choices on the market. But I also know most
people buy what they see when they walk into a shop, and those offerings
absolutely get churned by the industry. What was best one year becomes
gauche and dated before long.

> In my near-death state, I still don't turn anything lower than a 34/30, the low gear on my gravel bike.

> ... A walloping 13.2 miles around the neighborhoods and down to Lake Oswego. This was my lunch ride/commute surrogate during COVID work-from-home era (before injury work-from-home era).

Yesterday I hopped on the bike for a very short utility ride. Halfway to
my destination I suddenly remembered "I'm not supposed to be riding yet!
I'm violating doctor's orders!" I did finish the trip, but very carefully.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

You mentioned that you were/are injured a couple of times now. What has happened? Is it serious?

Lou, just curious.

[jbeattie]

I hesitate to say since it was another ski injury on the second to the last day of the season at the end of April. It was mid-day on a hot day, and I think I got spun around in some sticky snow -- but who knows. The first thing I remember is rolling down a hallway headed to surgery. A nasty left tib/fib FX. https://photos.app.goo.gl/xA5wbvKjsQNRdWyR8 First, external fixation: https://photos.app.goo.gl/9W3zvMiDWwX1bakw8 Then internal fixation: https://photos.app.goo.gl/8GodkTg9vC4xzXmC6 3.5 months non-weight or partial weigh-bearing, so it has considerably slowed my riding -- but I was on the trainer one-leg riding after stitches were out (dicey getting on and off) and for the last three weeks back on the road, for a while on platform pedals and an ortho boot and more recently in an ankle brace and SPDs. There is basically no flat where I live, which is what my PT lady wants since seated climbing is like doing leg presses. I'm wearing t-shirts and Specialized mountain bike shorts and ancient three-strap shoes because they accommodate the ankle brace. The bitch is my knees are killing me because my quads are so weak. Nonetheless, I still did this ride (plus more) with my wife the other night on the way to the Thai cart for dinner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRnwgPa6rM&t=78s&ab_channel=NicholaiBusch 14:40 is like 15%. Low of 34/30 -- and a f******* cripple. I don't get the need for a 19" gear.

I was excited last night because I actually got out of the saddle and did a quasi-sprint for about five seconds before my legs failed. I'm headed to Utah next week and will be riding my son's Creo super-fast ebike. https://tinyurl.com/hjtru29s It's the only way to keep up on the passes in my current condition.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

Holy crap! I always hated sticky snow. I gave up on skiing a couple of years ago and bought me some nice bikes from the money saved ;-)

Lou

[AMuzi]

Ouch. Best wishes as we both make bone cells.

[Frank Krygowski]

Wow. My downhill skiing days were fairly brief and very long ago. A
badly twisted knee was part of my motivation for quitting, but it was
nowhere close to what's happened to you.

Hope you heal well and have better future luck.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 6:47:31 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/1/2021 7:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > Well, with the new chains ALL of the speeds have the same strength in tension. But the 11 and 12 maintain that strength over a wider spread because they are more flexible laterally.
> I don't think strength in simple tension is an issue. That's not how
> chains fail. I think broken chains are much more likely caused by
> bending and twisting during shifts while tension is applied.

You may be correct but I was simply repeating the strength ratings from the chain manufacturers. What this seems to mean to me is that the side plates and pins supply the actual strength. Perhaps a narrower chain has the ability to flex without effecting the strength.

> But I do wonder if you have any source for that statement of yours. It's
> pretty common for you to pull "facts" out of your hat.

Rather than wondering all you had to do was go to chain manufacturers like Connex and read their specifications. But rather than do that you make yet another stupid comment.

> I haven't questioned the fact that 2x gear trains are outselling 3x gear
> trains. I'm asking why.

1. Triple shifting is not nearly as reliable as double. Of course if you are using bar end shifters you're used to having to fiddle around to find the ring center rather than a Brifter which has problems with the large size differential between rings.

2. Why would you even want three rings to wear out when you could have better ratio spacing without overlap with two rings?

> Part of my motivation is this, as already explained: For decades,
> everybody always claimed more gears were always better. Suddenly that's
> out the window, and it's considered a great idea to reduce one's gear
> count by one third to one half.

How many times have I commented on this group that 8 speeds were perfect for the average rider because they all shift almost perfectly all the time. That people wanted more speed was nothing more than marketing. You don't like effective marketing?

The staggering speeds being shown in the major tours would not be possible without those multiple speeds. If anything about that requires explanation you shouldn't be on a tech site.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, the important thing is correct alignment. Otherwise you'll have pretty continuous pain. If the doctor you have cannot do that get another.

No wonder you're such a pain in the ass - you're in so much pain that everything bothers you.

[AMuzi]

[raises hand w/splint]
+1

[jbeattie]

If you broke it in a bike accident, don't admit it. Frank will never let you hear the end of it. He will remind you that he has never had an accident -- ever, not even as a child. Not even in his dreams.

The doctor who did my recent repair is an ortho trauma god. I assume he at least had a Home Depot laser-pointer to get my foot on straight. I do wonder whether he let an intern or PA close the surgical wound (or someone from housekeeping), because the scar looks like I was attacked with a chain saw. My leg modeling career is over.

-- Jay Beattie

[AMuzi]

I have broken bones in bicycle crashes but not these.

To quote my young employee, "Play stupid games, win stupid
prizes."

[John B.]

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:53:51 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

Is this similar to "Conspicuous consumption" where the guy with the
biggest, most expensive, car in the driveway wins?

"Conspicuous crashes"? where the guy with the most crashes and broken
bones is declared the hero?

"Accident prone" is perhaps another term for it?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/accident-prone
accident-prone
adjective
uk
An accident-prone person often has accidents, usually because they are
very awkward.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[William Crowell]

The correct characterization of the specific scenario depends entirely upon whether the rider in question is a schlemiel or a schlimazel.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, September 2, 2021 at 4:40:55 PM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> The correct characterization of the specific scenario depends entirely upon whether the rider in question is a schlemiel or a schlimazel.

You say Tomato.

[jbeattie]

My physical therapist -- one of dozens in PDX -- has 26 current patients with ski injuries this year, many like me tied to the heat and snow conditions. It was a nasty late season, but I admit that my creaky knees or flexibility may have made me less able to react to fly-paper snow -- which, BTW, is my guess as to what happened since I have no memory of it. I'm hardly awkward on skis, although more awkward than my son -- who was seriously injured 4 years ago in a ski accident. He was a ski racer and went to University of Utah on a four-year ski vacation. Call him awkward, and he will crush you.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:07:49 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

The clumsy squad?
I grew up in a little town in "up-state" New Hampshire where skiing
was THE winter sport for school age kids. In fact the school teams
often took the New England School championships. We had both a 50
meter jump and a downhill area (300 ft drop) with a tow, lighted at
night.And in my 4 years of high school skiing I remember one bloke
that was seriously injured. A cousin of a mate of mine jumping in a
meet was caught by the wind and landed crosswise the landing area and
broke his "down hill" leg in several places.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 16:40:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell

>The correct characterization of the specific scenario depends entirely upon whether the rider in question is a schlemiel or a schlimazel.

Spoiler: A schlemiel is a clumsy and inept person. A schlimazel is a
person who doesn't seem to have any luck.
<https://www.huffpost.com/entry/schlemiel-schlimazel-hase_b_8512356>
"A schlemiel is somebody who often spills his soup and a schlimazel is
the person it lands on." In bicycle lingo, that would be "A schlemiel
is someone who doesn't know how to properly ride a bicycle while a
schlimazel is the guy he crashes into".

Different cultures tend to have more names for things they consider
important. For example, Eskimos allegedly have over 50 names for
snow.
"Eskimo words for snow"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow>
Similarly, Yiddish probably has an equally large number of words for
idiot, fool, dummy, etc.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558