For Frank and other old school people

[Lou Holtman]

22 min home assignment ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U

Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)


Lou

[Tom Kunich]

The Di2 now is semi-wireless. The levers aren't wired and I suppose the intelligence is contained within the battery. Having a single large battery to drive the front and rear derailleur is Shimano's usual genius solution.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm not much into watching random YouTube videos. Care to summarize it?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

It seems to be an advertisement for telling the viewer just how
wonderful the Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL7 bicycles really are.

While viewing it one should remember that George C. Parker sold the
Brooklyn Bridge so many times that they wrote a song about it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Huh, what does selling something to which the seller holds no title have to do with the S-Works Tarmac SL7?

The video is about setting it up from frame to complete bike and is interesting, particularly the end, using a device I've never seen to set-up saddle height, tilt, fore-aft. Tool selection was interesting as was topping off the discs after the initial fill and checking for air. The FD is incredibly fast. Its weird to watch how fast the shifts are.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

You asking us to read endless documents about whatever and you are too lazy to watch a 22 minutes youtube video? Some things can better be watched.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Indeed the video shows why.

Lou

[William Crowell]

I wouldn't be the slightest bit interested in owning a bike like that. It's nothing but wretched excess, making you the slave of Specialized and Shimano.

[Lou Holtman]

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 9:49:24 AM UTC+2, William Crowell wrote:
> I wouldn't be the slightest bit interested in owning a bike like that. It's nothing but wretched excess, making you the slave of Specialized and Shimano.

Making you a slave of Specialized and Shimano? How is that? This video is about building up that bike. I'm not running to the shop to buy one, but watching a mechanic I always find interesting and often learn something; technique or used tools. Like Jay already mentioned topping off the discs was interesting and also the struggling to get all the cables inside the stem and handlebar.

Lou

[William Crowell]

"Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)"

Sorry, but even after watching the video I'm still not understanding why I should want these things.

I'm a fan of Henry David Thoreau. He believed in living "deliberately" and free from illusion and excess, and he explained how making valuable possessions too large a part of your life derogates from that goal.

[Tom Kunich]

Why are you bothering to give that moron the time of day? If he isn't bright enough to see that it was a video about how a professional mechanic builds all of the modern bikes, you can see that he, like Frank, is a throwback.

[jbeattie]

I don' like being a slave to internal cabling. I'm a curmudgeon, too, but with an curmudgeon index date (CID) well after 1987. I grumble about all the internally routed cables and the plumbing and electrical work on modern bikes. My son has the S-Works SL6 -- the predecessor of Sagan's bike -- and just paid the in-house mechanic to set it up. Specialized actually employs a mechanic who runs an operation in the warehouse that is like a mini-bike shop with clothing and parts and repairs. Labor rates are nominal. I give my son a hard time for not doing it himself, and he just rolls his eyes. He is also friends with the guys at a local shop who do work for practically free . . . for everyone. I hear what they charge for some services and kind of wonder how they stay in business.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Bill, Thoreau was a ne'r do well that was more famous because of his mention by Ralph Waldo Emerson than his is rather backwards attitudes that were funded by his father. When few people were educated he wrote a book. Whoopy! Today thousands of books are published and most of them are a great deal more educated than someone in the simpler times of the early 1800's.

You don't want a new style, lighter bike with Di2 shifting? Why is it that you couldn't see that wasn't the point at all if you think that excess? Excess of what?

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 7:02:22 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:

> "Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)"
> Sorry, but even after watching the video I'm still not understanding why I should want these things.

It's not trying to sell you anything.

>
> I'm a fan of Henry David Thoreau. He believed in living "deliberately" and free from illusion and excess, and he explained how making valuable possessions too large a part of your life derogates from that goal.

One can live deliberately with a Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL7. Thoreau would have owned that bike -- borrowed the money from his dad and worked it off in the pencil factory instead of lounging around a pond. Hard work is what makes a man and not living the Bohemian life!

-- Jay Beattie.

[William Crowell]

"Thoreau would have owned that bike -- borrowed the money from his dad and worked it off in the pencil factory instead of lounging around a pond. Hard work is what makes a man and not living the Bohemian life!"

Your argument is not well taken, counselor; in fact, it makes no sense whatsoever because that's not the man Thoreau was, and that's not what he did.

[Tom Kunich]

Had Thoreau seized upon the cycling life, he could have lived a full life instead of dying from tuberculosis which was usually brought on by a lack of real physical activity. His idea of tiring work was having to carry the paper spacers for dividing the pencil piles.

Compare this to my friend with whom I did a 30 mile ride yesterday. He is 89 years old and in perfect health for his age. He worked in a supermarket his entire life - each day, every day he was on his feet and it is no different now. He lives in an retirement home now that his wife has died and he helps his daughter with manual labor jobs.

I find it shocking how little people know about the world around them where Russell thinks that people sit on their ass and type into a computer. Between jobs I had many manual labor jobs - maintenance man for the Bay Area Rapid Transit, Telephone installation in skyscrapers, even building racing motorcycles. Thursday while returning from my ride I saw a man loading what appeared to be a new car onto one of those 8 car carriers, I knew what that was about since I've mentioned it here but I stopped and asked him just to make sure. Indeed, since Obama the only way that dealers can sell cars is with no money down and six months until the first payment. So this guy has an entire business repossessing these cars after six months. Do you think that Russell doesn't think this manual labor?

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 7:53:29 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> "Thoreau would have owned that bike -- borrowed the money from his dad and worked it off in the pencil factory instead of lounging around a pond. Hard work is what makes a man and not living the Bohemian life!"
> Your argument is not well taken, counselor; in fact, it makes no sense whatsoever because that's not the man Thoreau was, and that's not what he did.

Thoreau built his own crappy house on Walden Pond out of wood from someone's chicken coop complete with all of the serious bacteria from all of that chicken crap pasted on the boards. Is it your opinion that could he afford it he wouldn't use new lumber?

Real bicycles had been invented in Germany about the time of Thoreau's life so had he known about them what do you know he would or would not do?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/12/2021 1:48 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 2:01:15 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/11/2021 6:06 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> 22 min home assignment ;-)
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U
>>>
>>> Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)
>> I'm not much into watching random YouTube videos. Care to summarize it?
>>
>

> You asking us to read endless documents about whatever...

Citation, please?

> and you are too lazy to watch a 22 minutes youtube video? Some things can better be watched.

I'm sure that if I asked you to read something, I gave an explanation of
the topic. Were you "too lazy" to do that?

I've skimmed through parts of that video. I don't see its relevance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

22 minutes of modern race bile build with modern equipment.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

On 9/12/2021 2:49 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> I wouldn't be the slightest bit interested in owning a bike like that. It's nothing but wretched excess, making you the slave of Specialized and Shimano.
>

Choice is good. Option to choose is more valuable than any
given choice.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 8:38:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/11/2021 7:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/11/2021 6:06 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> 22 min home assignment ;-)
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U
> >>
> >> Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)
> >
> > I'm not much into watching random YouTube videos. Care to
> > summarize it?
> >
> >
> 22 minutes of modern race bile build with modern equipment.

Andrew, that is irrelevant to anyone who stopped advancing in 1987.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 8:50:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/12/2021 2:49 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > I wouldn't be the slightest bit interested in owning a bike like that. It's nothing but wretched excess, making you the slave of Specialized and Shimano.
> >
> Choice is good. Option to choose is more valuable than any
> given choice.

Bill is surely welcome to his choice but why should I have to read about it? At least I have reasons for why I have my choices. I actually tried them all and I didn't make my opinion from uninformed guesses at prices and equipment.

[Frank Krygowski]

You're welcome to your choices and welcome to discuss them here. That's
what this group is supposed to be about.

Personally, I happen to prefer evaluations based on physics and related
mathematics. Vague claims like "This bike really tracks through the
corners" or "I can feel the stiffness in this bike's rear end" are
unconvincing to me.

But please keep in mind that you and I do generally agree on some
points. For example, you've said that you think eight cogs was plenty,
you've said that saving a pound or two makes negligible difference. On
those, we certainly agree.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

It makes absolutely no difference if an 8 or 9 speed drive train is "good enough" if you cannot buy them. Going out of your way to purchase used or low grade components made by third grade manufacturers is of no benefit to anyone.

The components made by the three top manufacturers are vastly superior to the stuff sold by even people like Chris King. For that matter even SRAM is playing catch-up.

[John B.]

I had made a promise to myself that I wouldn't enter debates with
silly old Tommy but this is too much. A video to show how to assemble
a bicycle... That rather blatantly demonstrates just how fumble
fingered the modern American is, doesn't it.

I say that as I was taking bicycles apart and putting them back
together again when I was 12 years old.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Transcendentalism and Simple Living? In Modern America?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But Frank! That video was to show you how to assemble that incredibly
complex mechanical device... the modern bicycle (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Me, too, but they were not cutting edge racing bikes with electronics and hydraulics. I could work on my newspaper bikes with a Crescent wrench. There were exactly zero hex fittings, not even the stem expander bolt. I had to get an entirely different set of tools to work on the PX10, which I got when I was fifteen and a half. BTW, videos are the way people learn to do repairs these days -- from toilets to human hearts.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

It helps to be a 'trust fund baby' living off the profits of
the Ticonderoga Pencil Co (as Mr Beattie noted).

Cockamamie ideas, philosophies and lifestyles of the idle
children of the rich is nothing new. Herodotus complained of
it before you.

[John B.]

Yup, I was about 14 years old before I undertook repairs on the
tractor (which was a much modified Model A Ford). And bleeding brakes?
I can't remember but about 15, I'd reckon.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

So if we gave you the frame and all the parts you would know how to assemble that bike without any help?

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 2:43:18 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:

> Yup, I was about 14 years old before I undertook repairs on the
> tractor (which was a much modified Model A Ford). And bleeding brakes?
> I can't remember but about 15, I'd reckon.

Without someone showing you first how to do it?

Lou

[John B.]

No, if I haven't seen the bits and pieces I don't "know" but i can
certainly figure it out, so yes, I can assemble it.

But you talk as though a bicycle is somehow an amazingly complex
mechanical device when as mechanical devices go it is almost as simple
as it is possible to get.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yes. You talk as though we are talking about the mystery of the ages
here when in fact a Model A Ford or the brakes on a 37 Chevy are in
reality pretty simple.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

An instruction/assembly manual or in this case a video may speed that up. What is wrong with that?

> But you talk as though a bicycle is somehow an amazingly complex
> mechanical device when as mechanical devices go it is almost as simple
> as it is possible to get.

As a mechanical engineer with 40 years experience in precision mechanical constructions a bicycle is a very simple device for me but that is not the point. It is not the same for everyone. Bragging about the fact that you taking apart bicycles and putting them back again when you were 12 years old (1950?) is just silly.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

In principle bleeding is simple but there are always tricks and tips that make life more easy. I invite you to bleed the brakes of my car btw.

Lou

[jbeattie]

A modern racing bicycle is more mysterious than a Model A Ford or a 37 Chevy. You don't look at a pile of Di2 wires, batteries, junctions, etc. and just intuit how it goes together. How would you even know to trim the derailleur: "hey, that little green light is flashing, maybe I should hit it with a Crescent wrench!" I doubt JB has a Shimano bleed kit, barbs, olives, hose-cutting template, or even a wrench for the BB cups -- and no, vice grips don' work. It's not hard to do, but it's not intuitive or obvious -- and it becomes less so if, like TK, you're mixing and matching different generations of equipment with different hose diameters, etc. How would some skilled motor-head even know about reverse threaded pedal spindles, BBs, torque recommendations for CF parts without some sort of study.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

Excactly! YouTube is wonderful regarding this.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

John hasn't so much as a clue what he is talking about. I started working on cars about the same time he says he did. I worked on a used car lot and borrowed my father's motor's manual. I earned my first car in that manner. Later I worked on mechanical bombing computers and navigation computers. Out of the military I worked on complex electromechanical devices A LOT. My mechanical ability has always been far above average. And I had all sorts of troubles trying to bleed those Avid (SRAM) hydraulic brakes though with the video, bleeding the Shimano disks were easy. John couldn't even recognize the special tools it takes to bleed hydraulics in a system that requires mere grams of fluid.

He knows NOTHING about electricity beyond plugging the toaster in.

This is not to say that he probably couldn't learn but the idea he has that this is something he could figure out is about as intelligent as saying he could dope out how to make a nuclear power plant. (which in fact is about the same level of complexity).

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/12/2021 3:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 10:38:34 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/12/2021 1:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 8:50:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/12/2021 2:49 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>>> I wouldn't be the slightest bit interested in owning a bike like that. It's nothing but wretched excess, making you the slave of Specialized and Shimano.
>>>>>
>>>> Choice is good. Option to choose is more valuable than any
>>>> given choice.
>>>
>>> Bill is surely welcome to his choice but why should I have to read about it? At least I have reasons for why I have my choices. I actually tried them all and I didn't make my opinion from uninformed guesses at prices and equipment.
>> You're welcome to your choices and welcome to discuss them here. That's
>> what this group is supposed to be about.
>>
>> Personally, I happen to prefer evaluations based on physics and related
>> mathematics. Vague claims like "This bike really tracks through the
>> corners" or "I can feel the stiffness in this bike's rear end" are
>> unconvincing to me.
>>
>> But please keep in mind that you and I do generally agree on some
>> points. For example, you've said that you think eight cogs was plenty,
>> you've said that saving a pound or two makes negligible difference. On
>> those, we certainly agree.
>
> It makes absolutely no difference if an 8 or 9 speed drive train is "good enough" if you cannot buy them.

Are you pretending one cannot buy an 8 speed cassette?

> The components made by the three top manufacturers are vastly superior to the stuff sold by even people like Chris King.

That's hand waving. Put some numbers on "vastly superior" if you can -
which I doubt.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

A couple points here: If I were setting out to bleed Shimano discs or
install Di2, I'd begin with printed instructions. If they are properly
written, no video should be necessary. In fact, I think well designed
systems should make most maintenance procedures reasonably obvious even
without documentation, because ten years down the road, that maintenance
is probably going to be done without documentation. Or at best, by
referring to a couple paragraphs in some general how-to manual.

Second, the video Lou pointed to was far from instructional or
educational. It was delivered to us without any statement of purpose.
The text accompanying it was just a "Gee whiz!" advertisement
("aerodynamic... super light ... disc brakes bring the bike to a
standstill..." - as if no other brake could possibly stop a bike). There
was no explanation of what the mechanic was doing or why. (Was that a
heat gun? Really?)

Some YouTube instructional videos are good. Most are amateurish and
require wading through lots of rambling talk, bad camera work and clumsy
editing but can still contain useful tips. This bike assembly video was
just an information-free yawn, unless you're a race bike fetishist.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Videos can be helpful, Lou. That one was not. It was bike porn, a waste
of ~8 minutes (viewed at 2x speed with lots skipped).

If I were doing that job and the printed documentation was somehow
unclear, I'd go to Park Tools' website.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

You can also buy an 8 speed freewheel. So what? What Shimano STI shifters can you buy? Don't tell us anything about 8 speed indexed downtube shifters when NO ONE but you has anything to do with that sort of thing. Or go on one of your rants about "all they need" All they and you need is a good pair of shoes but you opt for more.

[Lou Holtman]

On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 5:48:16 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:


> A couple points here: If I were setting out to bleed Shimano discs or
> install Di2, I'd begin with printed instructions. If they are properly
> written, no video should be necessary. In fact, I think well designed
> systems should make most maintenance procedures reasonably obvious even
> without documentation, because ten years down the road, that maintenance
> is probably going to be done without documentation. Or at best, by
> referring to a couple paragraphs in some general how-to manual.
>
> Second, the video Lou pointed to was far from instructional or
> educational. It was delivered to us without any statement of purpose.
> The text accompanying it was just a "Gee whiz!" advertisement
> ("aerodynamic... super light ... disc brakes bring the bike to a
> standstill..." - as if no other brake could possibly stop a bike). There
> was no explanation of what the mechanic was doing or why. (Was that a
> heat gun? Really?)
>
> Some YouTube instructional videos are good. Most are amateurish and
> require wading through lots of rambling talk, bad camera work and clumsy
> editing but can still contain useful tips. This bike assembly video was
> just an information-free yawn, unless you're a race bike fetishist.

Gee Frank that video just showed what is involved in building up what is considered to be one of the highest end pro road bike at the moment (you can agree on that or not). Nothing more and nothing less. It just happened to be a Specialized. You may or may not see any information in this, Points I observed:
- how much that frame weighs
- the finished bike is 7.33 kg. Heavier than the UCI limit of 6.8 kg.
- Peter Sagan uses a 11-30T cassette and 53-39T chain rings,
- runs 26 mm wide tires,
- junction box A of the Di2 system is behind the saddle on the seat post. Never saw that and not the smartest position if you ask me because it is in the dirty rear wheel spray.
- the hassle to get the wires into the stem and handlebar,
- aligns the rotor. That is strange for a new rotor.
- winds the handle bar really tight with little overlap.
- mechanic has a good moustache ;-)

Yes that is a heat gun. Shrink tube is a clever way to hold the Di2 wire and the brake hose together.

Lou

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 04:43:28 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman

I wasn't bragging about being able to assemble a bicycle when I was 12
years old specifically I was attempting to point out that the video
was about a subject so simple that a 12 year old kid could accomplish
it without instruction.

If you consider a simple statement of fact bragging, then feel free to
do so.
As for 1950? I graduated from high school in 1950... but I probably
shouldn't say that as you might say I was bragging.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I particularly liked the one about how to boil gasoline on your
kitchen stove (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

[Yawn]


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

In the real world that would be a rude reply.

Lou

[William Crowell]

Jay wrote: "Thoreau would have...borrowed the money from his dad and worked it off in the pencil factory instead of lounging around a pond."

Jay, you corker, I didn't realize at first that you were putting me on. Sorry about that! You do have a good sense of humor.

Andrew wrote: "Choice is good. Option to choose is more valuable than any given choice."

That's true. I don't begrudge anyone owning this stuff if they really want to. Maybe it is just that I want to spend my money on other things, so I'm happy to keep riding the old Ultegra-equipped 1987 Paramount (with down-tube shifters!)

[Tom Kunich]

Franks has begun to show his real self. The one I've always known was there. Maybe he sees the end of Biden and his "America Last" program coming and is upset.

[Tom Kunich]

Nice bike but the Ultegra stuff doesn't get Frank's approval. It is too "new" and "high tech".

[jbeattie]

I'm not seeing the connection. BTW, the bicycle industrial complex is doing quite well under Biden. Too much cash and high demand are driving up prices. There seems to be no end to price elasticity. I was astounded to see the price of a new Ultegra hydro mechanical or Di2 group, assuming you could get one. With all the cash floating around, you'll start seeing the big companies buying stuff, like their minor suppliers or real estate. Trek will probably eat-up more shops, for better or worse.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

ISTM more than half of Tom's posts contain straw man arguments.

It's so much harder for him to dispute what I've actually said!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 9/14/2021 8:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> I'm not seeing the connection. BTW, the bicycle industrial complex is doing quite well under Biden. Too much cash and high demand are driving up prices. There seems to be no end to price elasticity. I was astounded to see the price of a new Ultegra hydro mechanical or Di2 group, assuming you could get one. With all the cash floating around, you'll start seeing the big companies buying stuff, like their minor suppliers or real estate. Trek will probably eat-up more shops, for better or worse.

Please give Trump credit where credit is due.

Trump's disastrous response to the Covid-19 pandemic, combined with the
tariffs he imposed, are what has driven up demand and driven up prices.
Biden had nothing to do with it. Biden just inherited all this from Trump.

Once Biden's actions bring the pandemic under control, with the help of
Dr. Fauci, more people return to in-person working, and more people go
back to their gyms, bicycle demand will slowly return to normal, and
hopefully prices will slowly fall back to previous levels. No bike shop
owner should expect this situation to go on forever.

Some companies are flush with cash because of Trump's corporate tax cuts
and increased demand for their products which has driven prices higher.
Others have been devastated by Trump, like hotels, cruise lines, and
airlines. You're right, this would be a good time for Trek to begin
opening more of their own stores.

In my area, Trump's lack of action in regard to the pandemic was also
responsible for both the meteoric increase in house prices as well as
the plunging rents and high vacancy rates for apartments. When I was
advertising my one rental property a few months ago, two prospective
tenants first question was "how many months of free rent are you
offering?" "Uh, zero." But many apartment complexes, desperate for
tenants, are offering several months of free rent.

[William Crowell]

I forgot to mention that Shimano Indexed Shifting is also too new and unproven. I'm sticking with friction shifting. It requires more skill than SIS, and makes me feel very smart and important when I use it.

[John B.]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:24:44 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I forgot to mention that Shimano Indexed Shifting is also too new and unproven. I'm sticking with friction shifting. It requires more skill than SIS, and makes me feel very smart and important when I use it.

And, it might be noted that your non-indexed shifting system works
with an infinite number of rear cogs, or front chain rings without
modification, AND is much lighter then the boat-anchor like, and far
more complex, although newer, systems (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 10:06:18 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I find it shocking how little people know about the world around them where Russell thinks that people sit on their ass and type into a computer. Between jobs I had many manual labor jobs - maintenance man for the Bay Area Rapid Transit, Telephone installation in skyscrapers, even building racing motorcycles. Thursday while returning from my ride I saw a man loading what appeared to be a new car onto one of those 8 car carriers, I knew what that was about since I've mentioned it here but I stopped and asked him just to make sure. Indeed, since Obama the only way that dealers can sell cars is with no money down and six months until the first payment. So this guy has an entire business repossessing these cars after six months. Do you think that Russell doesn't think this manual labor?

Tommy, please explain the "manual labor" part of the car repossessor job? Did he have to manually push the repossessed car onto the carrier? Or did he use a winch to get it on? Or did he have some kind of master key to drive it on? And with the car carrier, did he push it back to the home base? Or did he sit on his tush and drive it back? You being the genius that you claim to be, please explain how this was a manual labor job? I'll agree he was not sitting in a chair in front of a computer. But he probably carried a computer in his truck that told him where to go and which cars to pick up. Or got the information from his cell phone via a tweet. There was no physical effort or muscles used by this person in the course of his job. Is a Taxi driver a manual labor job? I'd say no. I believe my reply about there being less manual labor jobs today and workers/Americans getting fatter was in response to a reply by John about diets changing in the last number of decades. Yes America is fatter today due to worse food choices and less physical labor jobs. And other things too.

I have also done manual labor jobs in my lifetime. Cook at Long John Silvers restaurant one summer during high school. One summer I worked a mover for Mayflower. Carried boxes and furniture in and out of trucks and houses. Worked in a warehouse that received and dispensed medical supplies. Taught classes for two semesters. I had to stand up the entire class but I don't think this one was a manual labor job. All my jobs after receiving my college degrees were the non manual labor type jobs. Sitting in front of a computer essentially. Manual labor jobs have become less and less in society. They still exist. But at a far smaller percentage today than 40 years ago. Amazon probably hires thousands of people to answer the phone when you call them to complain or change an online order. Not manual labor jobs.

Obama caused car dealers to sell cars with no money down and zero payments for the first six months. Leading to unqualified people buying cars (and somehow being approved by banks and credit companies and the car dealers somehow). And the cars being repossessed. Danged Obama. Why didn't Trump crack down on this crime and fix it when he was making america great again. Or some such nonsense. Danged Trump failed you it looks like. Just like he failed you when he yipped and yapped about getting out of Afghanistan and made deals with the Taliban to take over Afghanistan. But it was Joe Biden who had to actually do the work of getting America out of Afghanistan.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 5:54:40 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> I particularly liked the one about how to boil gasoline on your
> kitchen stove (:-)
> --
>

> John B.

What is the boiling point of gasoline? Is it lower than the combustion point? Or explosion point since its gasoline. Do you think it matters if its a electric kitchen stove or a gas kitchen stove? Is one more combustible than the other for boiling gasoline.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 10:29:14 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Nice bike but the Ultegra stuff doesn't get Frank's approval. It is too "new" and "high tech".

Ultegra. Ha. I have a Shimano 600 crankset on one bike. My brother is still using a Shimano 600 rear derailleur on a bike. Ultegra is froo froo stuff.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

HA. I sneer at you. I laugh at you. And whatever else I can do too. I ride a single speed. No wasting time shifting gears for me. And single speed is so much lighter than your high faluting complex multi speed multi chainring multi cog shifting contraptions. One speed rules!!!!!!!! Actually maybe the pinnacle of the best of the best is direct drive. Like the original high wheel bikes. No complex chains or cogs involved. Lightest of all!!!!!!!!! Or maybe even better is those bikes where you sat on the seat and pushed yourself along with your feet. Like running while sitting on the bike. Maybe that is the bestest of all. Back to the future.

[John B.]

And your argument is? That it is a safe practice to encourage someone
who quite literally doesn't know what he is doing, demonstrated by the
fact that he/she/it has to watch a movie to figure out how to do it,
to do something that is considered dangerious, I would go as far as to
say extremely dangerious, to those who actually process hydro-carbons
as a business?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, so did I... when I was 12 years old. And none of those flimsy
"new style" bikes with a single top tube. It really wasn't strong to
carry your mate, side saddle, and how else could you carry him, after
one took the fenders off to look "cool" there was no place else for
him to sit.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[William Crowell]

I would really like to be using a Stronglight, TA or early Campy Record crankset, Mafac center-pull brakes and Campy Super Record road pedals, but you just can't find them NOS anymore.

[AMuzi]

On 9/15/2021 6:09 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> I would really like to be using a Stronglight, TA or early Campy Record crankset, Mafac center-pull brakes and Campy Super Record road pedals, but you just can't find them NOS anymore.
>

My end of the industry pumped a great many bikes like that
into garages and attics over the years. Now that the
original owners are dying, you can find barely ridden examples.

http://www.thevelocollective.com/1973-juvela-swiss-road-bike/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

I haven't sold a bike on Craigslist in a year and a half. If you think that is price elasticity watch what happens to your local shops.

[Tom Kunich]

Scharf - why do you say things without any backing or explanation? Is it that you just can't keep yourself from lying? Tell us - what exactly was Trump's "disasterous" lack of action?

I hope that you got your vaccine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUT_qfrYHVw Oh, wait, his training in biological engineering is meaningless because he is also a race car engineer. The actual papers he has received showing that the vaccine operates like a bioweapon are meaningless to you because you don't understand them.

Tell me Scharf - do you think that you can gain political office by repeating lies of the left?

[Tom Kunich]

I understand that you're out of the economics loop, but I want you to try and load a car onto a carrier. Please. I'm sure that you have more than enough strength to lift the loading rails and to drive it up via the tire width rails onto the carrier. I'm sure that you have the ability to often be strong enough to scare away the people from whom you are repossessing their car.

And yes, it was the Obama recession that STOPPED car dealers from being able to sell cars. That did not even start to come back until Trump.

It somehow should surprise me that you think leaving almost a trillion dollars of weapons to the Taliban and more than a thousand Americans in Afghanistan is depicted by you as a victory. When the military Chief of Staff admits that they were going to worn China is Trump intended to take any actions (This is what is known as High Treason and just SAYING this is grounds for immediate dismissal) and the head of the State Department says that they haven't taken ANY actions to vet the Afghani's being brought into this country I can only hope that the people being killed are you and your family.

Having worked on the means of tracking shipping containers I can tell you that it is impossible so those weapons left in Afghanistan will soon be in the hands of Afghani terrorists here and you'll be able to see them up close and very personal.

[William Crowell]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 6:49:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
Andrew wrote: "My end of the industry pumped a great many bikes like that into garages and attics over the years. Now that the original owners are dying, you can find barely ridden examples."

Yes, I've noticed that. I think the market for bikes like that is terrible, though. I have a few that I'd like to sell, but every time I've tried I get discouraged by their apparent low market value, and I just wind up hanging onto them instead.

[Tom Kunich]

I figure that the right man will eventually come along. It isn't as if I have a lot of bikes around. I'm down to three extra - the Eddy Merckx Campy 10 speed, the Lemond Zurich Di2 and he Colnago CLX3.0 with internal Di2. They will eventually go since I'm selling them for half the price it would cost to replace them.

[AMuzi]

OK, but as in any market, you (seller) lose but also, as in
your previous question about buying vintage equipment, you
(buyer) win.

When you're on both sides of a dynamic market, what's to
complain?

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 22 min home assignment ;-)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U
>
> Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)

I'm too old-school to watch U-Tube.

Partly because a video that shows some hint of competence is somewhere
between headline news and a miracle.

I particularly recall a video of a remarkable break-up of the ice on a
frozen stream, a spectacular event well worth watching -- except that
the sound track consisted entirely of !YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR
IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!
YOU CAN HEAR IT!

My most recent attempt to watch a video was the winter of 2020 when I
wanted to find a pattern for a niquab. (The pattern is 13" x 15", if
you happen to want the results of weeks of research.)

Ten or so years ago, the Web was awash in "How to make your own modest
clothing" pages. But when I wanted one, this one video was all I
could find. (It was in many places; the first few I found were only
the words accompanying the pictures.) So I tried desperately to watch
it. It consisted entirely of fingers twiddling over a black blob, and
consistenty skipped over key points.

If you want to get me to commit twenty minutes of my two negotiable
hours, you've got to come up with a better come-on than "watching this
will convert you to my religion".

Note: Not being a fan of spectator sports, I haven't paid enough
attention to the current slanging match to know what that religion is.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 9:24:42 PM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 22 min home assignment ;-)
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U
> >
> > Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)
>
> I'm too old-school to watch U-Tube.
>
> Partly because a video that shows some hint of competence is somewhere
> between headline news and a miracle.
>
> I particularly recall a video of a remarkable break-up of the ice on a
> frozen stream, a spectacular event well worth watching -- except that
> the sound track consisted entirely of !YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR
> IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!
> YOU CAN HEAR IT!
>
> My most recent attempt to watch a video was the winter of 2020 when I
> wanted to find a pattern for a niquab. (The pattern is 13" x 15", if
> you happen to want the results of weeks of research.)
>
> Ten or so years ago, the Web was awash in "How to make your own modest
> clothing" pages. But when I wanted one, this one video was all I
> could find. (It was in many places; the first few I found were only

Huh. If I wanted to make my own clothes I would just ask my Mom to teach me how to sew and cut up cloth to make clothes. But I suppose people who do not have mothers who know these things could use the internet and YouTube for such information. Somewhat sad.

Currently I do not make my own clothes. But when my clothes get torn and need repairing, I take them to Mom to fix.

[John B.]

On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:34:27 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 9:24:42 PM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > 22 min home assignment ;-)
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U
>> >
>> > Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)
>>
>> I'm too old-school to watch U-Tube.
>>
>> Partly because a video that shows some hint of competence is somewhere
>> between headline news and a miracle.
>>
>> I particularly recall a video of a remarkable break-up of the ice on a
>> frozen stream, a spectacular event well worth watching -- except that
>> the sound track consisted entirely of !YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR
>> IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!YOU CAN HEAR IT!
>> YOU CAN HEAR IT!
>>
>> My most recent attempt to watch a video was the winter of 2020 when I
>> wanted to find a pattern for a niquab. (The pattern is 13" x 15", if
>> you happen to want the results of weeks of research.)
>>
>> Ten or so years ago, the Web was awash in "How to make your own modest
>> clothing" pages. But when I wanted one, this one video was all I
>> could find. (It was in many places; the first few I found were only
>
>Huh. If I wanted to make my own clothes I would just ask my Mom to teach me how to sew and cut up cloth to make clothes. But I suppose people who do not have mothers who know these things could use the internet and YouTube for such information. Somewhat sad.
>
>Currently I do not make my own clothes. But when my clothes get torn and need repairing, I take them to Mom to fix.
>

Perhaps that what Joy was doing. After all she is a "Mom" (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 4:24:42 AM UTC+2, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 22 min home assignment ;-)
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U
> >
> > Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)
>
> I'm too old-school to watch U-Tube.
>
> Partly because a video that shows some hint of competence is somewhere
> between headline news and a miracle.
>

> If you want to get me to commit twenty minutes of my two negotiable
> hours, you've got to come up with a better come-on than "watching this
> will convert you to my religion".
>
> Note: Not being a fan of spectator sports, I haven't paid enough
> attention to the current slanging match to know what that religion is.

Nobody is forcing you to watch. You probably spend 15 minutes to write this post. Personally I'm not interested in sewing and making my own clothes, but hé it is a free world.

Lou

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:34:27 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Huh. If I wanted to make my own clothes I would just ask my Mom to teach me how to sew and cut up cloth to make clothes. But I suppose people who do not have mothers who know these things could use the internet and YouTube for such information. Somewhat sad.
>
> Currently I do not make my own clothes. But when my clothes get torn and need repairing, I take them to Mom to fix.

I'm running very short on elders.

And though Mother made most of my clothes, I'm sure that she'd never
even heard of a niqab.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Ralph Barone]

I’m guessing that for Joy to talk to her Mom, it would be a little bit more
than a long distance phone call.

> Currently I do not make my own clothes. But when my clothes get torn and
> need repairing, I take them to Mom to fix.

Be a mensch, will ya?

[News 2021]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:06:16 -0700, Lou Holtman scribed:

> 22 min home assignment ;-)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSl3A8tHj6U
>
> Now you understand why disk brakes and Di2 ;-)

Nope. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Frank Krygowski]

I did better than you! I merely yawned.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, I returned to manual not because Di2 isn't FAR superior to manual but because I simply do not like the complication. I don't like weak electrical wires placed in positions where it is possible if not likely to cut them. Since good wheel sets are now so expensive, a disk brake prolongs their life almost indefinitely. It take a LOT of brake shoes and worn out disks to pay for a replacement set of wheels. I do NOT like wheels that are so easy to overbrake as disks are. But theoretically there is nothing at all wrong with them. My solution is to return to aluminum wheels which brake every bit as well but are harder to find in a grade strong enough to take my weight and the sort of riding I do.

Why would you complain about advancements strictly because they are advancements? You may not like them but that doesn't make them useless or worthless.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/27/2021 12:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Why would you complain about advancements strictly because they are advancements?

Once again, Tom, you'd do better to address what I've actually said,
instead of what you wish or pretend I said.

I understand that you may not correctly remember what I've said; but as
others have told you, this is the internet. You can actually look things
up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

It is so easy for you to say that you didn't say that 100 postings after you did.

[News 2021]

On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:14:36 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:

Perhaps if you stopped using those elite skills that show this group was
founded by some guy running a bike shop and developed good skills, you
might be able to find FK's post further in the thread.

Or has google groups stopped archiving a few months of posts.

[Tom Kunich]

What is odd is that you actually believe that Frank is worth ANY effort at all, let alone tracing his bullshit.

[News 2021]

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:15:45 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:

You religiously replying to his posts.
Actions speak louder than words.
Have a nice day.

[Tom Kunich]

So you don't think that his fake ideas shouldn't be exposed?

[News 2021]

On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:10:49 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:

> On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 12:19:11 AM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:15:45 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:

>> > What is odd is that you actually believe that Frank is worth ANY
>> > effort at all, let alone tracing his bullshit.
>> You religiously replying to his posts.
>> Actions speak louder than words.
>> Have a nice day.
>
> So you don't think that his fake ideas shouldn't be exposed?

Naah, but I think yours could do with a good grind down.
OTOH, they are usually so hilariously stupid, there might be some
entertainment value if they were posted occassionaly.