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Peak Watts, cycling vs. stair climbing
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Existential Angst
Sep 5, 2012, 4:49:51 PM9/5/12
to
Awl --
I fool around calc'g max cal burns of various activities, and was always
intrigued by the incredible peak Watts of cycling. I just googled highes
cycling wattage, and saw refs to 1,100 W, 1300 W, altho I seem to recall
reading about wattages of 2,500, 2,750.
It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a simple
height, time measurement and calculation.
With decidedly un-athletic gifts, I readily achieved 1,000+ W in a stair
climb, yet am barely able to peak at 300 W in a generator/light bulb
stationary bike I built.
The problem there is that I can't vouch for the generator efficiency, so the
peak 300 W would actually be a minimum. But even at 50% losses (and
unlikely at that), my peak would be 600 W, still a far cry from the 1,074 I
measured climbing stairs, or even the near-steady state 875 W averaged over
four floors worth of stair sprinting.
I'm guessing that an elite sprinter or stair climber could easily double or
triple my wattages, given that my current running ability is 2 miles at 12
min miles.... and actually, not even THAT any more!!!
So a couple of Qs arise from all this, bearing in my mind that I have no
vested interest or bia in how this comparison plays out.
1. In comparing the average elite stair climber with the avg elite cyclist,
who could generate the more peak watts?
Based on my own performance, I'd say stair climbing, but a cyclist with
rat-traps is able to use both legs simultaneously, whereas the power stroke
for running/stairs is one leg. I too use rat-traps on my stationary cycle,
but the whole setup is a bit rickety, so that is probably a factor as well.
2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
"fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
power.
Appreciate all input.
--
EA
I fool around calc'g max cal burns of various activities, and was always
intrigued by the incredible peak Watts of cycling. I just googled highes
cycling wattage, and saw refs to 1,100 W, 1300 W, altho I seem to recall
reading about wattages of 2,500, 2,750.
It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a simple
height, time measurement and calculation.
With decidedly un-athletic gifts, I readily achieved 1,000+ W in a stair
climb, yet am barely able to peak at 300 W in a generator/light bulb
stationary bike I built.
The problem there is that I can't vouch for the generator efficiency, so the
peak 300 W would actually be a minimum. But even at 50% losses (and
unlikely at that), my peak would be 600 W, still a far cry from the 1,074 I
measured climbing stairs, or even the near-steady state 875 W averaged over
four floors worth of stair sprinting.
I'm guessing that an elite sprinter or stair climber could easily double or
triple my wattages, given that my current running ability is 2 miles at 12
min miles.... and actually, not even THAT any more!!!
So a couple of Qs arise from all this, bearing in my mind that I have no
vested interest or bia in how this comparison plays out.
1. In comparing the average elite stair climber with the avg elite cyclist,
who could generate the more peak watts?
Based on my own performance, I'd say stair climbing, but a cyclist with
rat-traps is able to use both legs simultaneously, whereas the power stroke
for running/stairs is one leg. I too use rat-traps on my stationary cycle,
but the whole setup is a bit rickety, so that is probably a factor as well.
2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
"fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
power.
Appreciate all input.
--
EA
DirtRoadie
Sep 5, 2012, 5:51:55 PM9/5/12
to
I would guess that your measurements from your stationary bike are
inaccurate.
1000 watts in a brief burst is within the realm of feasibility for a
typical cyclist. Operative word - "brief"
Commercial power meters for bikes are pretty accurate. For the most
part they use strain gauges to measure force coupled with speed
measurement.
Between cyclists and stair racers I don't know who could generate more
peak watts, but I suspect it's fairly close.
Rate of vertical ascent has been recognized as a performance indicator
for cyclists.
I also suspect that relative efficiencies come into play.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity.
But that's sustained output, not peak. (also see Ferrari's articles at
http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=articles)
Although it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, look at:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-09/thomas-dold-wins-seventh-straight-empire-state-building-climb-in-new-york.html
Note that a 1050 foot climb in 9-1/2 minutes is an ascent rate of
~2020 m/hr.
DR
Existential Angst
Sep 5, 2012, 6:43:52 PM9/5/12
to
"DirtRoadie" <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6e76f739-5df0-4f70...@n9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
=================================================
The bloomberg article cited 10 min 28 sec.
Assuming a bw of 154 #, his mechanical power calcs out to 350 W, whch is
pretty substantial on a sustained baiss. mega-substantial??
His calorie burn is somewhere between 25-31 cal/min, with a total burn of
between 275 and 325 cals.
In mph, his speed is only 1.14 mph vertically, but about 1.14/.707 = 1.47
mph linearly.
I managed 2.14 mph up 4 flights (53.5 ft)... :) :)
From your comment on performance indicator, I take it competitive cyclists
will cross-train on stairs, as part of their regimen? Makes sense to me.
Indeed, a power meter that measures force, velocity should be accurate, as
the technology of these measurements is pretty high and well-established.
And a lot less cumbersome than a 1,000++ W generator!
--
EA
DR
news:6e76f739-5df0-4f70...@n9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
The bloomberg article cited 10 min 28 sec.
Assuming a bw of 154 #, his mechanical power calcs out to 350 W, whch is
pretty substantial on a sustained baiss. mega-substantial??
His calorie burn is somewhere between 25-31 cal/min, with a total burn of
between 275 and 325 cals.
In mph, his speed is only 1.14 mph vertically, but about 1.14/.707 = 1.47
mph linearly.
I managed 2.14 mph up 4 flights (53.5 ft)... :) :)
From your comment on performance indicator, I take it competitive cyclists
will cross-train on stairs, as part of their regimen? Makes sense to me.
Indeed, a power meter that measures force, velocity should be accurate, as
the technology of these measurements is pretty high and well-established.
And a lot less cumbersome than a 1,000++ W generator!
--
EA
DR
Existential Angst
Sep 5, 2012, 7:08:48 PM9/5/12
to
"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:5047d599$0$9830$607e...@cv.net...
Just calc'd the power in a 5K run, which has approx. the same time frame,
and came up with a range of 335-405 W, depending on what one chooses for
muscular efficiency.
These calcs are not the same as force x velocity or mgh-type calcs, but it
does seem that a variety of max efforts involving the legs seem to be in the
same ballpark. I seem to recall 350 W as a sustainable biking power level,
as well.
--
EA
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news:5047d599$0$9830$607e...@cv.net...
and came up with a range of 335-405 W, depending on what one chooses for
muscular efficiency.
These calcs are not the same as force x velocity or mgh-type calcs, but it
does seem that a variety of max efforts involving the legs seem to be in the
same ballpark. I seem to recall 350 W as a sustainable biking power level,
as well.
--
EA
> --
> EA
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DirtRoadie
Sep 5, 2012, 8:19:35 PM9/5/12
to
On Sep 5, 4:43 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "DirtRoadie" <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> I also suspect that relative efficiencies come into play.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity.
> But that's sustained output, not peak. (also see Ferrari's articles athttp://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=articles)
>
> Although it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, look at:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-09/thomas-dold-wins-seventh-str...
than 10 minutes is not "sustained" when compared with bike races.
Go poke around here to see some actual data files for racers:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races.aspx
> His calorie burn is somewhere between 25-31 cal/min, with a total burn of
> between 275 and 325 cals.
> In mph, his speed is only 1.14 mph vertically, but about 1.14/.707 = 1.47
> mph linearly.
> I managed 2.14 mph up 4 flights (53.5 ft)... :) :)
>
> From your comment on performance indicator, I take it competitive cyclists
> will cross-train on stairs, as part of their regimen? Makes sense to me.
>
Probably wouldn't hurt, but I suspect the weight room is more common
for strength type training. Otherwise most training is probably more
specific and done on a bike or trainer.
> "DirtRoadie" <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> But that's sustained output, not peak. (also see Ferrari's articles athttp://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=articles)
>
> Although it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, look at:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-09/thomas-dold-wins-seventh-str...
>
> Note that a 1050 foot climb in 9-1/2 minutes is an ascent rate of
> ~2020 m/hr.
> =================================================
>
> The bloomberg article cited 10 min 28 sec.
> Assuming a bw of 154 #, his mechanical power calcs out to 350 W, whch is
> pretty substantial on a sustained baiss. mega-substantial??
The record is cited as 9:33. 350W is good figure, not great, but less
> Note that a 1050 foot climb in 9-1/2 minutes is an ascent rate of
> ~2020 m/hr.
> =================================================
>
> The bloomberg article cited 10 min 28 sec.
> Assuming a bw of 154 #, his mechanical power calcs out to 350 W, whch is
> pretty substantial on a sustained baiss. mega-substantial??
than 10 minutes is not "sustained" when compared with bike races.
Go poke around here to see some actual data files for racers:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races.aspx
> His calorie burn is somewhere between 25-31 cal/min, with a total burn of
> between 275 and 325 cals.
> In mph, his speed is only 1.14 mph vertically, but about 1.14/.707 = 1.47
> mph linearly.
> I managed 2.14 mph up 4 flights (53.5 ft)... :) :)
>
> From your comment on performance indicator, I take it competitive cyclists
> will cross-train on stairs, as part of their regimen? Makes sense to me.
>
for strength type training. Otherwise most training is probably more
specific and done on a bike or trainer.
tussock
Sep 5, 2012, 8:02:39 PM9/5/12
to
Existential Angst wrote:
> It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a
> simple height, time measurement and calculation.
Sure, E=mgh, power = E/t.
> It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a
> simple height, time measurement and calculation.
Note that you can measure wattage for a hill climb on a bike the same
way, as long as your max speed and tyre pressure is low enough to ignore air
drag and rolling resistance (as you have ignored various losses in your
stair climb).
That'll also allow you to put more work through the bike without
troubling your power measuring setup. Try to start and stop timing at
roughly the same speed if you've only got a short climb available.
Remember you get more /power/ with a high cadence, even when it feels
like you're not pushing as hard. Test that yourself if you like.
You can also calculate your air drag in various postures down a slope
and use that data with any top-speed flat runs to find useful power.
--
tussock
Existential Angst
Sep 5, 2012, 8:51:13 PM9/5/12
to
"tussock" <sc...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:vp5lh9x...@scrub2.WOOLEY...
If using lbs, feet, use ft-lbs/sec, multiply by 1.36 for watts.
This is a very accurate measurement of power, at least for the vertical
component, altho it is in fact an underestimate of total power, as it omits
"intrabody motion" as well as the forward component, but which is a very
small amount, on the order of a couple of percent, if that.
A cycling watt meter on a stationary bike would seem to be even more
accurate for "total" power.
> Note that you can measure wattage for a hill climb on a bike the same
> way, as long as your max speed and tyre pressure is low enough to ignore
> air
> drag and rolling resistance (as you have ignored various losses in your
> stair climb).
>
> That'll also allow you to put more work through the bike without
> troubling your power measuring setup. Try to start and stop timing at
> roughly the same speed if you've only got a short climb available.
> Remember you get more /power/ with a high cadence, even when it feels
> like you're not pushing as hard. Test that yourself if you like.
Agreed, and this comes straight from the force-velocity curve of virtually
all muscle.
Maximizing load (resistance) is a sure way to *minimize power*. Max power
occurs at a kind of "sweet spot" that muscle "likes" to operate at. This is
true for weight lifting, as well, if the goal is calorie burn.
--
EA
news:vp5lh9x...@scrub2.WOOLEY...
> Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a
>> simple height, time measurement and calculation.
>
> Sure, E=mgh, power = E/t.
>
If your measurements are metric, you can calc as is, above.
>
>> It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a
>> simple height, time measurement and calculation.
>
> Sure, E=mgh, power = E/t.
>
If using lbs, feet, use ft-lbs/sec, multiply by 1.36 for watts.
This is a very accurate measurement of power, at least for the vertical
component, altho it is in fact an underestimate of total power, as it omits
"intrabody motion" as well as the forward component, but which is a very
small amount, on the order of a couple of percent, if that.
A cycling watt meter on a stationary bike would seem to be even more
accurate for "total" power.
> Note that you can measure wattage for a hill climb on a bike the same
> way, as long as your max speed and tyre pressure is low enough to ignore
> air
> drag and rolling resistance (as you have ignored various losses in your
> stair climb).
>
> That'll also allow you to put more work through the bike without
> troubling your power measuring setup. Try to start and stop timing at
> roughly the same speed if you've only got a short climb available.
> Remember you get more /power/ with a high cadence, even when it feels
> like you're not pushing as hard. Test that yourself if you like.
all muscle.
Maximizing load (resistance) is a sure way to *minimize power*. Max power
occurs at a kind of "sweet spot" that muscle "likes" to operate at. This is
true for weight lifting, as well, if the goal is calorie burn.
--
EA
Tom $herman (-_-)
Sep 5, 2012, 11:43:45 PM9/5/12
to
On 9/5/2012 5:43 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> The bloomberg article cited 10 min 28 sec.
> Assuming a bw of 154 #, his mechanical power calcs out to 350 W, whch is
> pretty substantial on a sustained baiss. mega-substantial??
During his first UCI hour record run (superman position bike) it was
> The bloomberg article cited 10 min 28 sec.
> Assuming a bw of 154 #, his mechanical power calcs out to 350 W, whch is
> pretty substantial on a sustained baiss. mega-substantial??
calculated that Chris Boardman produced an average of 440 W.
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
frkr...@gmail.com
Sep 6, 2012, 12:39:52 AM9/6/12
to
- Frank Krygowski
thirty-six
Sep 6, 2012, 12:54:48 AM9/6/12
to
On Sep 5, 9:49 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Awl --
>
> I fool around calc'g max cal burns of various activities, and was always
> intrigued by the incredible peak Watts of cycling. I just googled highes
> cycling wattage, and saw refs to 1,100 W, 1300 W, altho I seem to recall
> reading about wattages of 2,500, 2,750.
>
> It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a simple
> height, time measurement and calculation.
> With decidedly un-athletic gifts, I readily achieved 1,000+ W in a stair
> climb, yet am barely able to peak at 300 W in a generator/light bulb
> stationary bike I built.
> The problem there is that I can't vouch for the generator efficiency, so the
> peak 300 W would actually be a minimum. But even at 50% losses (and
> unlikely at that), my peak would be 600 W, still a far cry from the 1,074 I
> measured climbing stairs, or even the near-steady state 875 W averaged over
> four floors worth of stair sprinting.
>
> I'm guessing that an elite sprinter or stair climber could easily double or
> triple my wattages, given that my current running ability is 2 miles at 12
> min miles.... and actually, not even THAT any more!!!
>
> So a couple of Qs arise from all this, bearing in my mind that I have no
> vested interest or bia in how this comparison plays out.
>
> 1. In comparing the average elite stair climber with the avg elite cyclist,
> who could generate the more peak watts?
I suspect the cyclist, because the resting period for the muscle is
> Awl --
>
> I fool around calc'g max cal burns of various activities, and was always
> intrigued by the incredible peak Watts of cycling. I just googled highes
> cycling wattage, and saw refs to 1,100 W, 1300 W, altho I seem to recall
> reading about wattages of 2,500, 2,750.
>
> It turns out that measuring wattage in a stair climb is super-easy, a simple
> height, time measurement and calculation.
> With decidedly un-athletic gifts, I readily achieved 1,000+ W in a stair
> climb, yet am barely able to peak at 300 W in a generator/light bulb
> stationary bike I built.
> The problem there is that I can't vouch for the generator efficiency, so the
> peak 300 W would actually be a minimum. But even at 50% losses (and
> unlikely at that), my peak would be 600 W, still a far cry from the 1,074 I
> measured climbing stairs, or even the near-steady state 875 W averaged over
> four floors worth of stair sprinting.
>
> I'm guessing that an elite sprinter or stair climber could easily double or
> triple my wattages, given that my current running ability is 2 miles at 12
> min miles.... and actually, not even THAT any more!!!
>
> So a couple of Qs arise from all this, bearing in my mind that I have no
> vested interest or bia in how this comparison plays out.
>
> 1. In comparing the average elite stair climber with the avg elite cyclist,
> who could generate the more peak watts?
longer and he has the advantage of a relatively stable muscle
temperature due to a faster airflow over his legs. This wont make any
difference in the first couple of minutes so the stair climber
will .likely be able to put out more power due to being able to use
his whole body and a more easily aquired simpler skill.
> Based on my own performance, I'd say stair climbing, but a cyclist with
> rat-traps is able to use both legs simultaneously, whereas the power stroke
> for running/stairs is one leg. I too use rat-traps on my stationary cycle,
> but the whole setup is a bit rickety, so that is probably a factor as well.
muscle actuation phase which is active for perhaps 45% of time or 162
deg and the rest of the time is available for the muscle to recover.
with a bicycle there are four phases (forward, down, back and up) each
phase may be around 90 deg more or less resulting in a longer time for
the muscle to relax and recover. The muscle return speed and active
phase of the muscle is the basic reason why peak power cycling cadence
doubles that of peak power running cadence.
as a teenager i had an exceptional stair-climbing speed which also
translated to running speed but not cycling speed. Even with a good
few years of riding a bicycle competitively, I did not aquire the same
level of sprint ability. After a while off the bike due to injury and
illness, I reconsidered my cycling technique and after putting
together all the information I could find on muscle physiology and
some fortunate pre-ride meal selections, i quickly gained an ability
in cycle sprinting at a higher level in fewer weeks than I'd
previously taken years to develop. In six weeks I had gone from
struggling to cover 14 miles in an hour to riding easily at an average
of 22mph for 2 hours and being able to sprint in excess of 50mph. Leg
technique, breathing technique, good positioning and choice food all
combine to give desired results. Sun exposure is also important to
generate vitD so as to mobilize the excess calcium which otherwise
forms painful acid depoits in the muscles a longer muscle relaxation
phase and possibly cramping, although this is more specically likely
due to lack of magnesium or sulphur in the muscles.
>
> 2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
> generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
> "fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
> power.
>
> Appreciate all input.
Don't try and run four steps at a time. Apart from not firmly footing
> 2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
> generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
> "fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
> power.
>
> Appreciate all input.
the step and risking smashing your teeth, it's slower than rising
three steps at a time. It is as well to loosen oneself uo first with
two steps at a time before challenging a record .
Tom $herman (-_-)
Sep 6, 2012, 1:50:25 AM9/6/12
to
On 9/5/2012 11:54 PM, thirty-six wrote:
> [...] In six weeks I had gone from
You must have quite the collection of green jerseys.
> [...] In six weeks I had gone from
> struggling to cover 14 miles in an hour to riding easily at an average
> of 22mph for 2 hours and being able to sprint in excess of 50mph.[...]
You must have quite the collection of green jerseys.
thirty-six
Sep 6, 2012, 5:48:49 AM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 6:50 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
mine. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_d-Lj1O7_8&feature=share&list=ULK_d-Lj1O7_8
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 9/5/2012 11:54 PM, thirty-six wrote:
>
> > [...] In six weeks I had gone from
> > struggling to cover 14 miles in an hour to riding easily at an average
> > of 22mph for 2 hours and being able to sprint in excess of 50mph.[...]
>
> You must have quite the collection of green jerseys.
>
I do seem to amassed a few, I like green. Here is one, but not
> On 9/5/2012 11:54 PM, thirty-six wrote:
>
> > [...] In six weeks I had gone from
> > struggling to cover 14 miles in an hour to riding easily at an average
> > of 22mph for 2 hours and being able to sprint in excess of 50mph.[...]
>
> You must have quite the collection of green jerseys.
>
mine. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_d-Lj1O7_8&feature=share&list=ULK_d-Lj1O7_8
Existential Angst
Sep 6, 2012, 6:07:08 AM9/6/12
to
"thirty-six" <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
news:70b3cbe7-3659-4e6c...@c19g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
=======================================================
=======================================================
I would doubt the part about "calcium acid deposits", as 1. Ca2+ is
alkaline, 2. Ca is very highly regulated ito absorption, 3. Vit D
radically increases absorption, which would, in principle, increase your
proposition of "calcium acid deposits.
Altho, Vit D does increase "mobilization of Ca", towards the end of
increasing the resorption/deposition process in bone, keeping it "younger".
A process which is stopped, btw, by Sally Field's Boniva (and all
bisphosphonates), giving a bullshit appearance of higher bone density. What
is really happening is the equivalent of a big, hollow, dead tree branch
that is about to break off. Sally Field is on Boniva precisely because she
does Yoger poses instead of running, and is lifting 3# weights instead of
30#. Way to go, Sally..
The diff between Boniva and other bisphosphonates is that Boniva is 10-100x
as expensive.... which you could have guessed, from Sally's advertising
blitzkrieg..... Way to go, Sally....
Magnesium is one of those "miracle minerals". I'm as anal about Mg
supplementation as I am about Vit C. "Cures" kidney stones, as well, I can
personally attest to that (there's a marvelous abstract online on this),
which makes dee-licious biochemical sense. Every adult in the world should
take at least 250 mg/day, supplementally. The form is largely irrelevant.
It is also unlikely that anyone is short on sulfur. One might be short on
the sulfur amino acids (methionine, cysteine), but that's a diff. story.
>
> 2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
> generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
> "fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
> power.
>
> Appreciate all input.
Don't try and run four steps at a time. Apart from not firmly footing
the step and risking smashing your teeth, it's slower than rising
three steps at a time. It is as well to loosen oneself uo first with
two steps at a time before challenging a record .
==================================================
====================================================
# of steps is a good point, as I noticed that step height makes a big diff,
stride/cadence-wise.
I'm at two steps right now, have briefly tried 3. Four is out of the
question, for now.
--
EA
news:70b3cbe7-3659-4e6c...@c19g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
=======================================================
I would doubt the part about "calcium acid deposits", as 1. Ca2+ is
alkaline, 2. Ca is very highly regulated ito absorption, 3. Vit D
radically increases absorption, which would, in principle, increase your
proposition of "calcium acid deposits.
Altho, Vit D does increase "mobilization of Ca", towards the end of
increasing the resorption/deposition process in bone, keeping it "younger".
A process which is stopped, btw, by Sally Field's Boniva (and all
bisphosphonates), giving a bullshit appearance of higher bone density. What
is really happening is the equivalent of a big, hollow, dead tree branch
that is about to break off. Sally Field is on Boniva precisely because she
does Yoger poses instead of running, and is lifting 3# weights instead of
30#. Way to go, Sally..
The diff between Boniva and other bisphosphonates is that Boniva is 10-100x
as expensive.... which you could have guessed, from Sally's advertising
blitzkrieg..... Way to go, Sally....
Magnesium is one of those "miracle minerals". I'm as anal about Mg
supplementation as I am about Vit C. "Cures" kidney stones, as well, I can
personally attest to that (there's a marvelous abstract online on this),
which makes dee-licious biochemical sense. Every adult in the world should
take at least 250 mg/day, supplementally. The form is largely irrelevant.
It is also unlikely that anyone is short on sulfur. One might be short on
the sulfur amino acids (methionine, cysteine), but that's a diff. story.
>
> 2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
> generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
> "fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
> power.
>
> Appreciate all input.
Don't try and run four steps at a time. Apart from not firmly footing
the step and risking smashing your teeth, it's slower than rising
three steps at a time. It is as well to loosen oneself uo first with
two steps at a time before challenging a record .
====================================================
# of steps is a good point, as I noticed that step height makes a big diff,
stride/cadence-wise.
I'm at two steps right now, have briefly tried 3. Four is out of the
question, for now.
--
EA
Existential Angst
Sep 6, 2012, 6:18:54 AM9/6/12
to
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5ac738e0-4333-48ec...@googlegroups.com...
Yeah, I'm curious about those losses myself.
I'll detail "my build" in a sep. thread. Nothing really patentable in my
design.... and f'sure not after I describe it.... LOL
But a very very cool way to generate resistance (heh, no pun intended),
essentially obviating the need for gears.
But more on that later.
--
EA
--
>
> - Frank Krygowski
news:5ac738e0-4333-48ec...@googlegroups.com...
I'll detail "my build" in a sep. thread. Nothing really patentable in my
design.... and f'sure not after I describe it.... LOL
But a very very cool way to generate resistance (heh, no pun intended),
essentially obviating the need for gears.
But more on that later.
--
EA
--
>
> - Frank Krygowski
thirty-six
Sep 6, 2012, 7:00:09 AM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 11:18 am, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Filament lamps resistance varies according to the filament
temperature, so you cannot judge power levels by a simple ammeter or
voltmeter, you need to use a combined device, a power meter. Far
better to boil a kettle of water. You don't need any meters only a
stopwatch, just boil up a measured amount of water (compensated for
temp variation) in the shortest time. You want a kettle with a flat
base element so as little as half a cup can be boiled. One with a
whistle will indicate your stop time accurately.
> <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
temperature, so you cannot judge power levels by a simple ammeter or
voltmeter, you need to use a combined device, a power meter. Far
better to boil a kettle of water. You don't need any meters only a
stopwatch, just boil up a measured amount of water (compensated for
temp variation) in the shortest time. You want a kettle with a flat
base element so as little as half a cup can be boiled. One with a
whistle will indicate your stop time accurately.
thirty-six
Sep 6, 2012, 7:36:46 AM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 11:06 am, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
I can't remember what is supposed to bind the calcium but where I have
been diagnosed with calcium deposits I have had burning (and in other
sore places) following a regime to alkalise (eating only
fruits,including wild, and vegetables, mostly sinach and dandelion
leaves)..
> Altho, Vit D does increase "mobilization of Ca", towards the end of
> increasing the resorption/deposition process in bone, keeping it "younger".
> A process which is stopped, btw, by Sally Field's Boniva (and all
> bisphosphonates), giving a bullshit appearance of higher bone density. What
> is really happening is the equivalent of a big, hollow, dead tree branch
> that is about to break off. Sally Field is on Boniva precisely because she
> does Yoger poses instead of running, and is lifting 3# weights instead of
> 30#. Way to go, Sally..
I had been diagnosed osteopaenic and was taking such medication. It
didn't help relieve the constant pain I have been experiencing
throughout my body i was also diagnosed osteopaenic and they wanted
me on an infusion without addressing my abdominal pain. I lbecame
malnourished while drinking 20floz of cow's milk a day. I could eat
very little due to abdominal pressure and pain and was diagnosed with
a hiatus hernia a few months before the worst of it when I decided
that the milk was likely not doing me any good as I lay crippled in
bed after Ensure (contains milk protein) or milk.
and a little water. put one flake in your mouth from time to time.
Magnesium chloride flakes are available for bathing which are also
suitable for oral consumption and provide the most economical and
effective absorbtion. I was putting a couple of flakes in my cooking
pot.
exposure in softening my skin and muscle.
limiting factor (possibly simply due to the removal of acid from the
muscle), the step rate for sustained effort is around 120 per minute,
while for more power in a shorter time one can up the step rate or the
step height. One generally cannot choose the latter with infinite
variabiity but if you are making 180 steps per minute on a two step
rise then it is certainly time to try for a three step rise.
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
been diagnosed with calcium deposits I have had burning (and in other
sore places) following a regime to alkalise (eating only
fruits,including wild, and vegetables, mostly sinach and dandelion
leaves)..
> Altho, Vit D does increase "mobilization of Ca", towards the end of
> increasing the resorption/deposition process in bone, keeping it "younger".
> A process which is stopped, btw, by Sally Field's Boniva (and all
> bisphosphonates), giving a bullshit appearance of higher bone density. What
> is really happening is the equivalent of a big, hollow, dead tree branch
> that is about to break off. Sally Field is on Boniva precisely because she
> does Yoger poses instead of running, and is lifting 3# weights instead of
> 30#. Way to go, Sally..
didn't help relieve the constant pain I have been experiencing
throughout my body i was also diagnosed osteopaenic and they wanted
me on an infusion without addressing my abdominal pain. I lbecame
malnourished while drinking 20floz of cow's milk a day. I could eat
very little due to abdominal pressure and pain and was diagnosed with
a hiatus hernia a few months before the worst of it when I decided
that the milk was likely not doing me any good as I lay crippled in
bed after Ensure (contains milk protein) or milk.
>
> The diff between Boniva and other bisphosphonates is that Boniva is 10-100x
> as expensive.... which you could have guessed, from Sally's advertising
> blitzkrieg..... Way to go, Sally....
>
> Magnesium is one of those "miracle minerals". I'm as anal about Mg
> supplementation as I am about Vit C. "Cures" kidney stones, as well, I can
> personally attest to that (there's a marvelous abstract online on this),
> which makes dee-licious biochemical sense. Every adult in the world should
> take at least 250 mg/day, supplementally. The form is largely irrelevant.
Rub magnesium oil on your hands and feet, made from magnesium chloride
> The diff between Boniva and other bisphosphonates is that Boniva is 10-100x
> as expensive.... which you could have guessed, from Sally's advertising
> blitzkrieg..... Way to go, Sally....
>
> Magnesium is one of those "miracle minerals". I'm as anal about Mg
> supplementation as I am about Vit C. "Cures" kidney stones, as well, I can
> personally attest to that (there's a marvelous abstract online on this),
> which makes dee-licious biochemical sense. Every adult in the world should
> take at least 250 mg/day, supplementally. The form is largely irrelevant.
and a little water. put one flake in your mouth from time to time.
Magnesium chloride flakes are available for bathing which are also
suitable for oral consumption and provide the most economical and
effective absorbtion. I was putting a couple of flakes in my cooking
pot.
>
> It is also unlikely that anyone is short on sulfur. One might be short on
> the sulfur amino acids (methionine, cysteine), but that's a diff. story.
The eating of onions seems to be essential in conjunction with sun
> It is also unlikely that anyone is short on sulfur. One might be short on
> the sulfur amino acids (methionine, cysteine), but that's a diff. story.
exposure in softening my skin and muscle.
>
>
>
> > 2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
> > generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
> > "fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
> > power.
>
> > Appreciate all input.
>
> Don't try and run four steps at a time. Apart from not firmly footing
> the step and risking smashing your teeth, it's slower than rising
> three steps at a time. It is as well to loosen oneself uo first with
> two steps at a time before challenging a record .
> ==================================================
> ====================================================
>
> # of steps is a good point, as I noticed that step height makes a big diff,
> stride/cadence-wise.
> I'm at two steps right now, have briefly tried 3. Four is out of the
> question, for now.
> --
> EA
As I pointed out it is the muscle relaxation phase time which is the
>
>
> > 2. Are cycle watt meters truly accurate? It seems to me that a
> > generator/light bulb system (with a calibrated generator) would be a more
> > "fundamental" measurement for power, as is measuring height vs. time for
> > power.
>
> > Appreciate all input.
>
> Don't try and run four steps at a time. Apart from not firmly footing
> the step and risking smashing your teeth, it's slower than rising
> three steps at a time. It is as well to loosen oneself uo first with
> two steps at a time before challenging a record .
> ==================================================
> ====================================================
>
> # of steps is a good point, as I noticed that step height makes a big diff,
> stride/cadence-wise.
> I'm at two steps right now, have briefly tried 3. Four is out of the
> question, for now.
> --
> EA
limiting factor (possibly simply due to the removal of acid from the
muscle), the step rate for sustained effort is around 120 per minute,
while for more power in a shorter time one can up the step rate or the
step height. One generally cannot choose the latter with infinite
variabiity but if you are making 180 steps per minute on a two step
rise then it is certainly time to try for a three step rise.
Existential Angst
Sep 6, 2012, 8:23:31 AM9/6/12
to
"thirty-six" <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
news:04fa05f2-3dd1-40f5...@x3g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Shirley you jest....
But ackshooly, not a bad idear.
At 540 cals/gm vaporization, that's actually about 1/2 Cal (nutritional) per
gm water, so 1 cup boiled off would be 1/2 of 236 gm or about 118 Cal...
plus room temp to boiling, which would be about another 20 Cal, or about 140
Cal per cup total -- which is not a bad workout..
Better, for greenies, just to heat water for tea, instead of boiling it off.
According to the above, that would require only about 20 Cal, or about 1 min
of furious pedaling, 5 min of easy pedaling.
But ackshooly, a 120 V light bulb IS a watt-meter -- IF you maintain a
constant 120 V, which in this case means a constant pedal speed. Which
admittedly is not always practical.
In that case, as voltage drops, you will need to refer to a chart which will
tabulate power as a function of voltage. Iow, a 100 W bulb, driven at 100 V
instead of 120 V, is mebbe only 70 W. This can be a one-time calibration
using a voltmeter and an ammeter, and the tabulation would be valid for all
filament bulbs.
OR, wire in a solid-state power meter, which are affordable now.
I may have mis-spoke on bulb-loading obviating gears... mebbe I'll run a
few flights of stairs, clear up the ole brain....
--
EA
David Scheidt
Sep 6, 2012, 9:20:31 AM9/6/12
to
Existential Angst <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
:"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
The limiting factor in elite athletes's sustained power output is
oxygen consumption, so it should be no surprise that different sport
have about the same max levels of performance.
--
sig 4
:"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
oxygen consumption, so it should be no surprise that different sport
have about the same max levels of performance.
--
sig 4
thirty-six
Sep 6, 2012, 1:35:45 PM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 1:23 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
Make it green tea for the performance minded.
> instead of boiling it off.
> According to the above, that would require only about 20 Cal, or about 1 min
> of furious pedaling, 5 min of easy pedaling.
I prefer to stew it for at least 10 minutes. Perhaps it's better if
we consider using a hotplate to make a soup or curry using a
saucepan. We can roll in gently to warm up our body, pedal hard for a
couple of minutes to bring the pot to a steam amd maintain the level
until finally needing to bring almost to a boil after adding some
thickening.
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
> instead of boiling it off.
> According to the above, that would require only about 20 Cal, or about 1 min
> of furious pedaling, 5 min of easy pedaling.
we consider using a hotplate to make a soup or curry using a
saucepan. We can roll in gently to warm up our body, pedal hard for a
couple of minutes to bring the pot to a steam amd maintain the level
until finally needing to bring almost to a boil after adding some
thickening.
>
> But ackshooly, a 120 V light bulb IS a watt-meter -- IF you maintain a
> constant 120 V, which in this case means a constant pedal speed. Which
> admittedly is not always practical.
>
> In that case, as voltage drops, you will need to refer to a chart which will
> tabulate power as a function of voltage. Iow, a 100 W bulb, driven at 100 V
> instead of 120 V, is mebbe only 70 W. This can be a one-time calibration
> using a voltmeter and an ammeter, and the tabulation would be valid for all
> filament bulbs.
>
> OR, wire in a solid-state power meter, which are affordable now.
Anything to save endangering oneself on the public roads, eh?
> But ackshooly, a 120 V light bulb IS a watt-meter -- IF you maintain a
> constant 120 V, which in this case means a constant pedal speed. Which
> admittedly is not always practical.
>
> In that case, as voltage drops, you will need to refer to a chart which will
> tabulate power as a function of voltage. Iow, a 100 W bulb, driven at 100 V
> instead of 120 V, is mebbe only 70 W. This can be a one-time calibration
> using a voltmeter and an ammeter, and the tabulation would be valid for all
> filament bulbs.
>
> OR, wire in a solid-state power meter, which are affordable now.
Existential Angst
Sep 6, 2012, 2:47:21 PM9/6/12
to
"thirty-six" <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b49235f6-e622-4f74...@a1g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
====================================================
To make a generator bike instructionally useful in this regard, I think the
only way to do it would be to use immersible heating elements in water, with
a nice digital display thermometer. A very good demo of electrical power,
exertion, mc delta T, proly a bunch else. The exertional cost of producing
power is so high, you really can't afford to lose any of it, via the iffy
thermal contact of hot plate coils, etc.
AND, to then be able to make coffee/tea is the, uh, ice-breaker.
>
> But ackshooly, a 120 V light bulb IS a watt-meter -- IF you maintain a
> constant 120 V, which in this case means a constant pedal speed. Which
> admittedly is not always practical.
>
> In that case, as voltage drops, you will need to refer to a chart which
> will
> tabulate power as a function of voltage. Iow, a 100 W bulb, driven at 100
> V
> instead of 120 V, is mebbe only 70 W. This can be a one-time calibration
> using a voltmeter and an ammeter, and the tabulation would be valid for
> all
> filament bulbs.
>
> OR, wire in a solid-state power meter, which are affordable now.
Anything to save endangering oneself on the public roads, eh?
Not at all. This, for me, is just an educational/exploratory tool, that is
actually quite the physics/physiological eye-opener, instruction-wise -- in
many more senses than the "biking to keep the TV going" type deals that are
out there.
For example, pedaling for an hour, keeping a 100 W bulb lit at full
briteness (120 V), will earn you much less than the 1.5c than the utility
would charge for that 0.1 kWhr, proly about 1/2c for an hours worth of
gruel.....
DAT is an eye-opener, makes you really appreciate dead dinosaurs, dudnit??
Don't get me started on the spinning absurdity..... LOL
--
EA
Existential Angst
Sep 6, 2012, 3:06:53 PM9/6/12
to
"David Scheidt" <dsch...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:k2a7uv$4ue$1...@reader1.panix.com...
----------------------------------
That is an excellent point.
It's just that not all activities are geometrically or biomechanically, uh,
geared to harness that oxidative power.
For example, a cyclist with superior VO2 *without* rattraps would likely be
severely handicapped wrt a cyclist with rat-traps.
Mebbe not the best example, but you get the point.
And that disparity would amplify, I think, as the exertions became less
sustained, say, in the 5-10 minute region.
And I was speculating that because a stair climber can use only one leg at a
time, that would hinder his ultimate harnessing of VO2. Toward that end:
I recalc'd the stair climb with DirtRoadie's 9:33 time, and got 387 W (up
from 350).
Tom Sherman's cite of the hour-long 440 W of Chris Boardman, if an accurate
assessment, would tend to support that two-legged power strokes (cycling)
have an advantage of one-legged power strokes in stair climbing-- IFF it
could be shown that the stair climber had an equivalent VO2 to the cyclist.
Again, I'm not committed to an outcome here, and find myself flip-flopping
as the discussion progresses.
--
EA
>
>
> --
> sig 4
news:k2a7uv$4ue$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> The limiting factor in elite athletes's sustained power output is
> oxygen consumption, so it should be no surprise that different sport
> have about the same max levels of performance.
==================================
> The limiting factor in elite athletes's sustained power output is
> oxygen consumption, so it should be no surprise that different sport
> have about the same max levels of performance.
That is an excellent point.
It's just that not all activities are geometrically or biomechanically, uh,
geared to harness that oxidative power.
For example, a cyclist with superior VO2 *without* rattraps would likely be
severely handicapped wrt a cyclist with rat-traps.
Mebbe not the best example, but you get the point.
And that disparity would amplify, I think, as the exertions became less
sustained, say, in the 5-10 minute region.
And I was speculating that because a stair climber can use only one leg at a
time, that would hinder his ultimate harnessing of VO2. Toward that end:
I recalc'd the stair climb with DirtRoadie's 9:33 time, and got 387 W (up
from 350).
Tom Sherman's cite of the hour-long 440 W of Chris Boardman, if an accurate
assessment, would tend to support that two-legged power strokes (cycling)
have an advantage of one-legged power strokes in stair climbing-- IFF it
could be shown that the stair climber had an equivalent VO2 to the cyclist.
Again, I'm not committed to an outcome here, and find myself flip-flopping
as the discussion progresses.
--
EA
>
>
> --
> sig 4
Dan O
Sep 6, 2012, 8:59:48 PM9/6/12
to
it's totally cool if anybody else does.
Here's how I figure it: Night before last my wife said, "Go to the
store and I'll make you the Big Lasagna." We got to talking about
what else to get at the store and then it turned out the Big Lasagna
was going to be for everybody. I said, "I thought you were going to
make *me* the Big Lasagna", and she said, "Well, it's five pounds. If
that's not enough... "
So I ate my share of the Big Lasagna and went to bed. Got up and ate
my oatmeal and went to work. Ate my thick peanut butter sandwich when
I got there. Still hungry, I went to the store and got a box of
pumpkin cookies off the day old bread rack - ate *five* of these
throughout the day.
On the ride home I *felt* the wattage. Riding a route with lots of
hills - none terribly long but more than a few of them killers, I just
kept feeling stronger as I went.
With like ten miles to go I began to calculate avg speed in my head
for various arrival times. "Let's see, thirty miles in 1.8 hours
would be 16 and 2/3 mph. I don't think i'll make 1.75, but if I did,
that would be 17-something.
I made it home a sweaty, snotty mess in 1.65 hours - 18-some mph. No
tailwinds to speak of involved. Not bad for me.
I credit the pumpkin cookies and lasagna.
John B.
Sep 6, 2012, 10:32:19 PM9/6/12
to
varies with temperature and unless you have rigged up some sort of
light meter the bulb can also vary slightly in brightness, perhaps
unnoticeable, with varying voltage. In addition you do not know the
efficiency of your bicycle generator or the drive system between the
bicycle and the generator, or for that matter between you and the
bicycle, so a laboratory grade instrumentation system it is not.
To improve the system, you could use the light bulb as the load but
insert a amp meter and voltmeter in the system and record actual
watts.
But your climbing calculations appear to ignore gravitational forces -
they vary from place to place, or atmospheric pressure that effects
lung filling and thus oxygen availability, so that climbing
measurements aren't the ultimate in measuring accuracy either.
On the other hand the plan likely does provide a reasonably good
indication of energy expenditure.
Frank Krygowski
Sep 6, 2012, 10:48:26 PM9/6/12
to
> To improve the system, you could use the light bulb as the load but
> insert a amp meter and voltmeter in the system and record actual
> watts.
large enough that its temperature change would be minimized. But I
suppose as long as you could record both volts and amps, you could get
by with the light bulb.
About the efficiency of the drive system: If he's using a chain drive
to power the generator, drive efficiency of 95% is probably a reasonable
guess. But if he's using a V-belt drive or a friction roller,
efficiency would be far, far lower and probably impossible to determine
with any accuracy. Throw in the unknown generator efficiency, and
you're not getting very good information.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom $herman (-_-)
Sep 6, 2012, 10:52:39 PM9/6/12
to
On 9/6/2012 2:06 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> [...]
> And that disparity would amplify, I think, as the exertions became less
> sustained, say, in the 5-10 minute region.
>
> And I was speculating that because a stair climber can use only one leg at a
> time, that would hinder his ultimate harnessing of VO2. Toward that end:
>
> I recalc'd the stair climb with DirtRoadie's 9:33 time, and got 387 W (up
> from 350).
> Tom Sherman's cite of the hour-long 440 W of Chris Boardman, if an accurate
> assessment, would tend to support that two-legged power strokes (cycling)
> have an advantage of one-legged power strokes in stair climbing-- IFF it
> could be shown that the stair climber had an equivalent VO2 to the cyclist.
> [...]
Compare apples to apples. At the time, Boardman was a world class time
trial rider. Was the stair climber equally good?
> [...]
> For example, a cyclist with superior VO2 *without* rattraps would likely be
> severely handicapped wrt a cyclist with rat-traps.
> Mebbe not the best example, but you get the point.
Let us not go there, eh? The deceased equine is complaining. ;)
> severely handicapped wrt a cyclist with rat-traps.
> Mebbe not the best example, but you get the point.
> And that disparity would amplify, I think, as the exertions became less
> sustained, say, in the 5-10 minute region.
>
> And I was speculating that because a stair climber can use only one leg at a
> time, that would hinder his ultimate harnessing of VO2. Toward that end:
>
> I recalc'd the stair climb with DirtRoadie's 9:33 time, and got 387 W (up
> from 350).
> Tom Sherman's cite of the hour-long 440 W of Chris Boardman, if an accurate
> assessment, would tend to support that two-legged power strokes (cycling)
> have an advantage of one-legged power strokes in stair climbing-- IFF it
> could be shown that the stair climber had an equivalent VO2 to the cyclist.
Compare apples to apples. At the time, Boardman was a world class time
trial rider. Was the stair climber equally good?
John B.
Sep 7, 2012, 8:05:52 AM9/7/12
to
the relative effort being expended in the two measured exercises.
As an aside, there is apparently considerable new thinking regarding
the human machine. I was just reading an article about runners,
specifically about the Jamaican who keeps kicking the 100 yd. record
up and up., and certain rethinking of how the leg muscles function.
Apparently recent experiments appear to indicate that the ultimate
sprint record can be pushed even higher then it is now.
Another thing mentioned was that marathon times is a matter of how
fast the body can replenish energy stores in the muscles. It didn't go
into detail but I gathered that VOmax of the top marathoners is so
high it is no longer the limiting factor.
Unfortunately this was in a magazine purchased at the airport to read
on the flight and I seem to have left it in the seat pocket when we
got off the airplane. And it wasn't The Economist, that I thought I
was buying, so I can't buy another copy but when I'm back to Bangkok
next week I plan on doing some digging as it sounds interesting.
Bertrand
Sep 7, 2012, 8:16:06 AM9/7/12
to
> As an aside, there is apparently considerable new thinking regarding
> the human machine ... runners ... how the leg muscles function ...
> marathon times ...
Some of this type of stuff is discussed at:
http://www.sportsscientists.com
Existential Angst
Sep 7, 2012, 1:40:11 PM9/7/12
to
"Dan O" <danov...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9af8d6ed-7582-45da...@oi9g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
You (the plural you, of course) wouldna known just how powerful and useful
stair climbing is, without doing the calcs.
In a thread in mfw, I showed how just *hobbling* up stairs, pert near with a
cane, is good for 10 cal/min, which is considerably more than housewives
burn in a typical Bally's aerobics class.
Actually, *literally* with a cane!! Normal brisk climbs are good for 30
cals/min, and 20, 30, 40 (and more) total calories in one shot, depending on
the climb.
Or that a 40 story climb is about the equiv of a mile run -- regardless of
your BW, btw, as bw cancels out in the conversion.
I woulda NEVER guessed that I could do 1,000 W exertions, based on my
decidedly middling running or bike work.
Now, how *anal* one wants to get with these calcs is another story, and
right now it's pretty anal for me. I'm almost obsessed with staircases
right now.... LOL
But mostly for enlightenment, to be able to rationally compare various
activities, etc.
As for your qualitative parable, ultimately I totally agree with this, for
longterm stuff -- but even along those lines, all these calcs etc.
*facilitate* a more educated intuitive assessments of activities.
Yesterday, I encountered a new stair case, but left my stopwatch home, but
did various runs, now "knowing" what my various burns were. Really very
inneresting.
And now that stair climbing is so accurately quantifiable, I can compare the
"perceived exertion" (actually part of the jargon of research ex physio) of
OTHER activities to stair climbs, and ballpark burns etc.
I will likely never take an elevator again.... similar to my self-propelled
mower. Once I realized the *true fitness value* of lawn mowing, esp.
upgrade, I have never used the self-propel feature since.
Ditto calorie counting. Once you truly understand "calorie patterns" in
food, from doing food calculations, you don't have to grind them out any
more. Very few people are able to do this, however, because nutrition has
gone the way of the Ab MindFuck, in our pop junk culture.
1 in 10,000 people actually knows what the RDA for protein is, and 1 in
1,000,000 actually knows what it really means. Heh, and none of them are
doctors.
So calcs DO have a value more than geek value, if you are able to put all
the numbers in a big picture.
--
EA
news:9af8d6ed-7582-45da...@oi9g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
stair climbing is, without doing the calcs.
In a thread in mfw, I showed how just *hobbling* up stairs, pert near with a
cane, is good for 10 cal/min, which is considerably more than housewives
burn in a typical Bally's aerobics class.
Actually, *literally* with a cane!! Normal brisk climbs are good for 30
cals/min, and 20, 30, 40 (and more) total calories in one shot, depending on
the climb.
Or that a 40 story climb is about the equiv of a mile run -- regardless of
your BW, btw, as bw cancels out in the conversion.
I woulda NEVER guessed that I could do 1,000 W exertions, based on my
decidedly middling running or bike work.
Now, how *anal* one wants to get with these calcs is another story, and
right now it's pretty anal for me. I'm almost obsessed with staircases
right now.... LOL
But mostly for enlightenment, to be able to rationally compare various
activities, etc.
As for your qualitative parable, ultimately I totally agree with this, for
longterm stuff -- but even along those lines, all these calcs etc.
*facilitate* a more educated intuitive assessments of activities.
Yesterday, I encountered a new stair case, but left my stopwatch home, but
did various runs, now "knowing" what my various burns were. Really very
inneresting.
And now that stair climbing is so accurately quantifiable, I can compare the
"perceived exertion" (actually part of the jargon of research ex physio) of
OTHER activities to stair climbs, and ballpark burns etc.
I will likely never take an elevator again.... similar to my self-propelled
mower. Once I realized the *true fitness value* of lawn mowing, esp.
upgrade, I have never used the self-propel feature since.
Ditto calorie counting. Once you truly understand "calorie patterns" in
food, from doing food calculations, you don't have to grind them out any
more. Very few people are able to do this, however, because nutrition has
gone the way of the Ab MindFuck, in our pop junk culture.
1 in 10,000 people actually knows what the RDA for protein is, and 1 in
1,000,000 actually knows what it really means. Heh, and none of them are
doctors.
So calcs DO have a value more than geek value, if you are able to put all
the numbers in a big picture.
--
EA
Existential Angst
Sep 7, 2012, 1:42:25 PM9/7/12
to
"Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net"> wrote in
message news:k2bnho$nkj$1...@dont-email.me...
Heh, dats what the IFF was for.... :) :)
I would really like to see a concrete apples/apples comparison.
--
EA
>
> --
> T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731�N, 83.985007�W
> Post Free or Die!
message news:k2bnho$nkj$1...@dont-email.me...
I would really like to see a concrete apples/apples comparison.
--
EA
>
> --
> T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731�N, 83.985007�W
> Post Free or Die!
Dan O
Sep 8, 2012, 2:39:14 AM9/8/12
to
On Sep 7, 10:40 am, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Dan O" <danover...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I think they're calling it "DRI" now. I just try to pay attention to
how I feel and compensate.
> So calcs DO have a value more than geek value, if you are able to put all
> the numbers in a big picture.
That's cool. It's just that I ride hard and long enough that my
metabolism is now spun up such that I can eat as much as I want of
whatever I want whenever I feel like it. I still sort of plan
nutrition and pay attention to what's going on and meet ~perceived
needs, but I can get away with just about anything as long as I keep
eating and make adjustments as above.
Hey, you're just the guy for my stair climbing "perceived exertion"
observation:
I used to work on the fifth floor. There was an exercise room in the
basement. I'd go down there and lift some weights for a little while
- just enough to maybe break a sweat and make my arms feel rubbery.
Immedately after doing this - while still feeling it in my upper body
- there was *no* burn whatsoever in my legs going back up the stairs.
Gotta go for now. Somewhere in the ng archives s/b an account of a
really cool exercise I invented for going *down* stairs.
> "Dan O" <danover...@gmail.com> wrote in message
how I feel and compensate.
> So calcs DO have a value more than geek value, if you are able to put all
> the numbers in a big picture.
metabolism is now spun up such that I can eat as much as I want of
whatever I want whenever I feel like it. I still sort of plan
nutrition and pay attention to what's going on and meet ~perceived
needs, but I can get away with just about anything as long as I keep
eating and make adjustments as above.
Hey, you're just the guy for my stair climbing "perceived exertion"
observation:
I used to work on the fifth floor. There was an exercise room in the
basement. I'd go down there and lift some weights for a little while
- just enough to maybe break a sweat and make my arms feel rubbery.
Immedately after doing this - while still feeling it in my upper body
- there was *no* burn whatsoever in my legs going back up the stairs.
Gotta go for now. Somewhere in the ng archives s/b an account of a
really cool exercise I invented for going *down* stairs.
Existential Angst
Sep 8, 2012, 8:51:08 AM9/8/12
to
"Dan O" <danov...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e5d44e60-21ef-44b5...@k13g2000pbq.googlegroups.com...
the RDA, an AI value and an upper limit value. Stupidly, stupidly
complicated.
But the RDA is still the RDA, altho the RDAs in the 2006 DRI compilation do
differ (here and there) from the last issued RDAs in 1989
There is also a DRI for activity!! Holy shit....
Pretty specific, not bad, overall. Actually, more than moi can do: they
want 30 minutes of jogging at 5.5 mph ( 10.9 min mile).... EVERY DAY!!!!
holy shit.....
That almost exceeds Ken Cooper's (le father of aerobics) *max
recommendations* for weekly totals of running!!!
.
>
>> So calcs DO have a value more than geek value, if you are able to put all
>> the numbers in a big picture.
>
> That's cool. It's just that I ride hard and long enough that my
> metabolism is now spun up such that I can eat as much as I want of
> whatever I want whenever I feel like it. I still sort of plan
> nutrition and pay attention to what's going on and meet ~perceived
> needs, but I can get away with just about anything as long as I keep
> eating and make adjustments as above.
>
> Hey, you're just the guy for my stair climbing "perceived exertion"
> observation:
>
> I used to work on the fifth floor. There was an exercise room in the
> basement. I'd go down there and lift some weights for a little while
> - just enough to maybe break a sweat and make my arms feel rubbery.
> Immedately after doing this - while still feeling it in my upper body
> - there was *no* burn whatsoever in my legs going back up the stairs.
Presumably there was a burn when you *didn't* do the gym stuff....
>
>> So calcs DO have a value more than geek value, if you are able to put all
>> the numbers in a big picture.
>
> That's cool. It's just that I ride hard and long enough that my
> metabolism is now spun up such that I can eat as much as I want of
> whatever I want whenever I feel like it. I still sort of plan
> nutrition and pay attention to what's going on and meet ~perceived
> needs, but I can get away with just about anything as long as I keep
> eating and make adjustments as above.
>
> Hey, you're just the guy for my stair climbing "perceived exertion"
> observation:
>
> I used to work on the fifth floor. There was an exercise room in the
> basement. I'd go down there and lift some weights for a little while
> - just enough to maybe break a sweat and make my arms feel rubbery.
> Immedately after doing this - while still feeling it in my upper body
> - there was *no* burn whatsoever in my legs going back up the stairs.
Proly acted as a warmup for stair climbing, with a pre-climb elevated HR,
for better lactic acid clearance upon stair climbing.
>
> Gotta go for now. Somewhere in the ng archives s/b an account of a
> really cool exercise I invented for going *down* stairs.
saying it's bad, just a bit dicey, and much lower bang for the buck than
going up -- but poss. a good warmup for stair climbing!
--
EA
thirty-six
Sep 8, 2012, 9:44:16 AM9/8/12
to
and have the time, do it agaIN..
Dan O
Sep 8, 2012, 12:22:32 PM9/8/12
to
your discussion highly interesting - engaging, even
>
> >> You (the plural you, of course) wouldna known just how powerful and
> >> useful
> >> stair climbing is, without doing the calcs.
stair climbing. The pumper operators supposedly needed to do a lot of
calcs, too, but I think most of them just had a sense for what to do.
One guy - in the midst of a lot of technical discussion about
firefighting, which necessarily winds up steeped in a lot of theory
and "sense" - summed it up succinctly: "Put the wet stuff on the red
stuff." [Please note that I am not dismissing technical understanding
- I'm all for that, myself].)
day, but most days when I'm keeping it together.)
>
>
>
>
>
> >> So calcs DO have a value more than geek value, if you are able to put all
> >> the numbers in a big picture.
>
> > That's cool. It's just that I ride hard and long enough that my
> > metabolism is now spun up such that I can eat as much as I want of
> > whatever I want whenever I feel like it. I still sort of plan
> > nutrition and pay attention to what's going on and meet ~perceived
> > needs, but I can get away with just about anything as long as I keep
> > eating and make adjustments as above.
>
> > Hey, you're just the guy for my stair climbing "perceived exertion"
> > observation:
>
> > I used to work on the fifth floor. There was an exercise room in the
> > basement. I'd go down there and lift some weights for a little while
> > - just enough to maybe break a sweat and make my arms feel rubbery.
> > Immedately after doing this - while still feeling it in my upper body
> > - there was *no* burn whatsoever in my legs going back up the stairs.
>
> Presumably there was a burn when you *didn't* do the gym stuff....
the bike (though more so when ~sedentary). The gym stuff was really
nothing extensive or varied or structured - alternating 15-20 reps of
bench pressing and 15-20 of some arcing lift with dumbells - about tow
or three cycles - nothing very heavy. What stuck me about it is the
effect of this targeted upper body work on the subsequent perceived
exertion in my legs.
> Proly acted as a warmup for stair climbing, with a pre-climb elevated HR,
> for better lactic acid clearance upon stair climbing.
>
>
>
> > Gotta go for now. Somewhere in the ng archives s/b an account of a
> > really cool exercise I invented for going *down* stairs.
>
> Down stairs, downhill, etc is problematic for a variety of reasons. Not
> saying it's bad, just a bit dicey, and much lower bang for the buck than
> going up -- but poss. a good warmup for stair climbing!
I would climb the stairs from locker room in basement or maybe first
floor, past the fifth floor where I worked to the landing above or
half a flight above that at the door to the roof. Turn around, kind
of out of breath. Stand with toes over edge of landing - middle of
wide stairs away from handrails. Close my eyes. Raise one foot and
step off... but don't just drop it to the next step down. Slowly,
very slowly lower the forward foot, but keeping full weight on the
still planted leg above until the free foot touches the next step down
(eyes closed). Now switch weight to lower foot, and bring the back
leg forward and down - slowly, slowly (eyes closed). Put both feet
down together only if necessary to catch balance.
This is chiefly a balance exercise (though I imagine it does
strengthen otherwise unused parts), and super effective at that. At
first I had to keep catching myself with both feet and sometimes even
open my eyes; but it's amazing how much my balance improved doing
this.
Yes, it sounds and probably looks and maybe is insanely dangerous, but
that's the interesting thing about "safety" - anything undertaken
accepting the risk and *with due care* is "safe".
By the time I got from landing above back down to fifth floor to work,
I had caught my breath, prickly sweat trying to break had passed, and
I was all Zen-like and serene, too :-)
Existential Angst
Sep 8, 2012, 3:26:18 PM9/8/12
to
"Dan O" <danov...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43b04a93-5dda-4edf...@r1g2000pbq.googlegroups.com...
But at this point, I value an iota of intelligent MUCH more than manners....
LOL
But it also raised a very important Q, of motivation(s) for exercise,
fitness.... largely moot in groups like this, rec.running, etc, but a very
big issue for J Q Pubic -- incl. me.
The MisInformation SuperHighway leaves most people with only one option:
Play the Simon Sez game, where Simon is usually some bozo with ripped abs --
and JQ invariably loses at that game.
Calcs, for those amenable to figures AND to the message that legit calcs
send, can be super-valuable.
The stair thing just blew me away, in part because I sort of do this stuff
for a living (well, a living-to-be), and, well, I just missed it!!!
It was only because someone on mfw was "complaining" about their performance
on stairs, and I ran a couple of calcs for fun, and did almost a literal
double take -- well, a spreadsheet double-take, at any rate.
And then when it turned out that simply hobbling up stairs was a
super-exercise, its fundamental utility and importance became clear.
Here's a related tidbit for cyclists:
It is a true fact (as opposed to False Fact), that walking along a 6% grade
doubles the calorie burn, from 80 cals to 160 cals per mile (std 70 kg
male).
But in cycling up that grade, at a "leisurely" pace, the cals due to that 6%
grade will DWARF the cals due to the horizontal component. I haven't done
them, but it is intuitively clear.
Now, the cals from vertical component will be the *same* as in walking (plus
whatever for the mass of the bike), but the ratio of the vert to horizontal
cals is so high in cycling simply bec cycling is so efficient horizontally.
This effect will decrease with speed, but will likely ALWAYS be much more
substantial than in walking/running.
So altho you can't bike up stairs, hills have an almost equivalent effect,
much more distinct than for running/walking up hills.
Or so I've led myself to believe.... LOL
>
>
>>
>> >> You (the plural you, of course) wouldna known just how powerful and
>> >> useful
>> >> stair climbing is, without doing the calcs.
>
> (I used to be a firefighter, so have at least an appreciation for
> stair climbing. The pumper operators supposedly needed to do a lot of
> calcs, too, but I think most of them just had a sense for what to do.
> One guy - in the midst of a lot of technical discussion about
> firefighting, which necessarily winds up steeped in a lot of theory
> and "sense" - summed it up succinctly: "Put the wet stuff on the red
> stuff." [Please note that I am not dismissing technical understanding
> - I'm all for that, myself].)
hydrant.... :)
biking to work, etc?
If I could ever retire (don't look good), I"d consider becoming a part-time
bike messenger, simply for the "local touring" and the fitness.
Or a tree-cutter/lumberjack. :)
The old ax-wielding lumberjacks were likely the fittest people on earth.
neuromuscular stuff, as well as shutting down digestion, etc.
No doubt a PhD in there somewhere.
But sort of over-analytical, don't you think? Wet stuff on the red
stuff.... and just warm up!! LOL
try as soon as I can.
Here's why it's so elegant:
Stand on one leg, both eyes open.
Now close the eyes. Most people will lose balance with a second or two --
profoundly.
Now do the same thing, but with just one finger touching a wall with an
ounce of force (or less), and you will stabilize again.
I am MUCH better at this than I used to be -- apparently a little practice
goes a long way. But most people just tip right over, initially. I
certainly did.
OR, all this stair climbing I'm doing (and heavy bag kicking) has greatly
helped the balance issue as well. Heavy bag kicking is an amazing
therapeutic activity for oldsters, pugilistic stigmas aside.
So that's one aspect.
The other aspect is that by going down slowly, the descending calorie burn
can become equal to or even greater than the ascending calorie burn,
depending on relative velocities, etc. That's where the SuperSlow
weightlifting idiots get their method from.
Unfortunately, it sort of "violates" the implications of the force-velocity
curve of muscle, which essentially says move, move, move, fast and way under
maximal resistance -- altho maximal resistance certainly has it's place, as
does maximum velocity, but imo way subordinate to the midpoint of the f-v
curve..
But as an occasional inclusion into a larger routine, I think your invention
is super-excellent, and I can't wait to try it.
Figgers now that I've discovered stairs, I no longer have access to all
those NYC high-rises.... :(
--
EA
AMuzi
Sep 8, 2012, 5:35:30 PM9/8/12
to
> "Dan O" <danov...@gmail.com> wrote
>-snip-
>> I ride my bike ~3-4 hours a day at 15+ mph avg speed. (Not *every*
>> day, but most days when I'm keeping it together.)
"Local touring" ?
The food delivery guys ( many times more of them than
document delivery couriers) run hard for a shift or two all
within a mile or so radius. Yes, they are very fit.
in re lumberjacks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJB261DN9I
One of my favorite congressmen !
(observer not constituent; I'm outside his district)
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>-snip-
>> I ride my bike ~3-4 hours a day at 15+ mph avg speed. (Not *every*
>> day, but most days when I'm keeping it together.)
Existential Angst wrote:
> That's incredible, you are very lucky. Is this pure recreation, or are you
> biking to work, etc?
> If I could ever retire (don't look good), I"d consider becoming a part-time
> bike messenger, simply for the "local touring" and the fitness.
> Or a tree-cutter/lumberjack. :)
> The old ax-wielding lumberjacks were likely the fittest people on earth.
> -snip-
> That's incredible, you are very lucky. Is this pure recreation, or are you
> biking to work, etc?
> If I could ever retire (don't look good), I"d consider becoming a part-time
> bike messenger, simply for the "local touring" and the fitness.
> Or a tree-cutter/lumberjack. :)
> The old ax-wielding lumberjacks were likely the fittest people on earth.
"Local touring" ?
The food delivery guys ( many times more of them than
document delivery couriers) run hard for a shift or two all
within a mile or so radius. Yes, they are very fit.
in re lumberjacks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJB261DN9I
One of my favorite congressmen !
(observer not constituent; I'm outside his district)
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tom $herman (-_-)
Sep 9, 2012, 4:37:51 AM9/9/12
to
On 9/7/2012 12:40 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Now, how*anal* one wants to get with these calcs is another story, and
<http://urbanvelo.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bike-shit_thumb.jpg>
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
> Now, how*anal* one wants to get with these calcs is another story, and
> right now it's pretty anal for me.
If you are going to be anal about it...
<http://urbanvelo.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bike-shit_thumb.jpg>
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Tom $herman (-_-)
Sep 9, 2012, 8:40:51 AM9/9/12
to
On 9/8/2012 2:26 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> That's incredible, you are very lucky. Is this pure recreation, or are you
> biking to work, etc?
> If I could ever retire (don't look good), I"d consider becoming a part-time
> bike messenger, simply for the "local touring" and the fitness.
> Or a tree-cutter/lumberjack.:)
> The old ax-wielding lumberjacks were likely the fittest people on earth.
Indeed.
> That's incredible, you are very lucky. Is this pure recreation, or are you
> biking to work, etc?
> If I could ever retire (don't look good), I"d consider becoming a part-time
> bike messenger, simply for the "local touring" and the fitness.
> Or a tree-cutter/lumberjack.:)
> The old ax-wielding lumberjacks were likely the fittest people on earth.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg>
David Scheidt
Sep 10, 2012, 1:18:52 PM9/10/12
to
Dan O <danov...@gmail.com> wrote:
:Okay, here's the exercise (invented it myself):
:I would climb the stairs from locker room in basement or maybe first
:floor, past the fifth floor where I worked to the landing above or
:half a flight above that at the door to the roof. Turn around, kind
:of out of breath. Stand with toes over edge of landing - middle of
:wide stairs away from handrails. Close my eyes. Raise one foot and
:step off... but don't just drop it to the next step down. Slowly,
:very slowly lower the forward foot, but keeping full weight on the
:still planted leg above until the free foot touches the next step down
:(eyes closed). Now switch weight to lower foot, and bring the back
This, minus the closing eyes, is basically a standard physical therapy
exercise to build strength in the muscles that stablize the hip. (and
probably the knee, I'm not a PT, just a victim) In PT it's usually
done with a box, which lets them vary the distance you're squatting,
which among other things, changes the muscles that get worked.
--
sig 95
:Okay, here's the exercise (invented it myself):
:I would climb the stairs from locker room in basement or maybe first
:floor, past the fifth floor where I worked to the landing above or
:half a flight above that at the door to the roof. Turn around, kind
:of out of breath. Stand with toes over edge of landing - middle of
:wide stairs away from handrails. Close my eyes. Raise one foot and
:step off... but don't just drop it to the next step down. Slowly,
:very slowly lower the forward foot, but keeping full weight on the
:still planted leg above until the free foot touches the next step down
:(eyes closed). Now switch weight to lower foot, and bring the back
exercise to build strength in the muscles that stablize the hip. (and
probably the knee, I'm not a PT, just a victim) In PT it's usually
done with a box, which lets them vary the distance you're squatting,
which among other things, changes the muscles that get worked.
--
sig 95
thirty-six
Sep 10, 2012, 1:57:24 PM9/10/12
to
On 10 Sep, 18:18, David Scheidt <dsche...@panix.com> wrote:
Did you do skipping as part of your PT exercises and did it have the
desired results?
desired results?
Existential Angst
Sep 10, 2012, 8:24:24 PM9/10/12
to
"Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net"> wrote in
message news:k2hkh0$78f$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 9/7/2012 12:40 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
>> Now, how*anal* one wants to get with these calcs is another story, and
>> right now it's pretty anal for me.
>
> If you are going to be anal about it...
>
> <http://urbanvelo.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bike-shit_thumb.jpg>
Do they make a model for stair sprinters??
>> Now, how*anal* one wants to get with these calcs is another story, and
>> right now it's pretty anal for me.
>
> If you are going to be anal about it...
>
> <http://urbanvelo.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bike-shit_thumb.jpg>
I suppose Depends would work.... LOL
--
EA
>
> --
> T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731�N, 83.985007�W
> Post Free or Die!
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