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Titanium vs Carbon Fiber
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Tom Kunich
May 14, 2021, 10:48:10 AM5/14/21
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When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?
Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.
Titanium dampens this ringing almost immediately so that I didn't notice it. Of course now that I have tinnitus from aircraft launches perhaps I don't have as much sensitivity as others. But I can distinctly hear and feel steel.
Steel bike can be made now about the same weight as titanium and perhaps 30% heavier than carbon fiber, but the top end carbon fiber bikes I have had are absolutely NOTHING when compared to the ride of titanium. And i have a rather heavier run of the mill titanium bike.
I will use this titanium bike probably for the remainder of my riding career with the Eddy Merckx aluminum bike as a backup when something requires repair on the Douglas. At the moment I will probably disassemble the aluminum Douglas Vector and set that frameset off so that I have plenty of Campy 10 speed spares for the other two.
Near the end of Wednesday's 50 miler I was riding well up in the big ring again which is something I thought was long gone. I was keeping up with traffic including every stop light in San Francisco from the feeling of it.
You could have never convinced me that the roads would ever again feel relatively smooth. but with the titanium bike they did.
Jay, I would suggest that you borrow a Ti bike and feel this for yourself.
Titanium bikes are extremely sensitive to the proper welding procedures so they can fail but it is almost always very rapidly. If the welds are good the bike is very long term.
Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.
Titanium dampens this ringing almost immediately so that I didn't notice it. Of course now that I have tinnitus from aircraft launches perhaps I don't have as much sensitivity as others. But I can distinctly hear and feel steel.
Steel bike can be made now about the same weight as titanium and perhaps 30% heavier than carbon fiber, but the top end carbon fiber bikes I have had are absolutely NOTHING when compared to the ride of titanium. And i have a rather heavier run of the mill titanium bike.
I will use this titanium bike probably for the remainder of my riding career with the Eddy Merckx aluminum bike as a backup when something requires repair on the Douglas. At the moment I will probably disassemble the aluminum Douglas Vector and set that frameset off so that I have plenty of Campy 10 speed spares for the other two.
Near the end of Wednesday's 50 miler I was riding well up in the big ring again which is something I thought was long gone. I was keeping up with traffic including every stop light in San Francisco from the feeling of it.
You could have never convinced me that the roads would ever again feel relatively smooth. but with the titanium bike they did.
Jay, I would suggest that you borrow a Ti bike and feel this for yourself.
Titanium bikes are extremely sensitive to the proper welding procedures so they can fail but it is almost always very rapidly. If the welds are good the bike is very long term.
jbeattie
May 14, 2021, 11:10:12 AM5/14/21
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On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?
Uh, the lifetime of the original purchaser. It's right there in the warranty.
> When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?
>
> Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.
I hear that Ti is warm in winter and cool in summer. It is stiff, yet soft and heavy but light. I was riding a Ti frame, and it made the road disappear in front of me. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IMG_0082-800x600.jpg
> Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.
I do have musical training, and I like the fact that Ti rings with a Tristan chord that is so satisfying and transcendent that I must stop and change my shorts.
-- Jay Beattie.
PS. I rode a Ti frame a long time ago, and it was like a noodle. My assumption is that the material has improved over the last 40 years.
Frank Krygowski
May 14, 2021, 11:53:10 AM5/14/21
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and the modulus of elasticity of the material. All Ti alloys have very
close to the same modulus, so the material probably hasn't improved in
that respect.
What's probably improved is the choice of tubing diameters and wall
thicknesses, to better compensate for Ti's lower modulus compared to
steel's.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Mark cleary
May 14, 2021, 12:29:14 PM5/14/21
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Deacon mark
Tom Kunich
May 14, 2021, 12:45:15 PM5/14/21
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Tom Kunich
May 14, 2021, 12:51:45 PM5/14/21
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On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 9:29:14 AM UTC-7, Mark cleary wrote:
>
> I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
> Deacon mark
I've been riding a very long time and the titanium bike I had before was a Colnago and it was flexy as it was a Bititan. I wrote Titanium off after that. I wouldn't have bothered with this if it wasn't so cheap. But it is a great bike in every respect.
>
> I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
> Deacon mark
Mark J.
May 14, 2021, 1:10:31 PM5/14/21
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tube diameters about the same as concurrent steel bikes, were reputed to
be noodles also. Not so much with the subsequent large-tube Cannondales.
Mark J.
Sir Ridesalot
May 14, 2021, 4:00:35 PM5/14/21
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Cheers
Tom Kunich
May 14, 2021, 7:32:02 PM5/14/21
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sms
May 15, 2021, 7:47:13 PM5/15/21
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On 5/14/2021 9:29 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
<snip>
> I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
Carbon fiber frames are very cheap to manufacture despite their
relatively high price (which has come down significantly). Titanium is a
lot more expensive to manufacture, both for materials and labor. Most of
the mass-produced titanium frames come out of Taiwan where labor is a
lot higher cost than Mainland China.
The bottom line is that nearly everyone wants a titanium frame bicycle
but not many people are willing to spend that much money.
<snip>
> I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
relatively high price (which has come down significantly). Titanium is a
lot more expensive to manufacture, both for materials and labor. Most of
the mass-produced titanium frames come out of Taiwan where labor is a
lot higher cost than Mainland China.
The bottom line is that nearly everyone wants a titanium frame bicycle
but not many people are willing to spend that much money.
Tom Kunich
May 15, 2021, 8:13:44 PM5/15/21
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Titanium bikes are almost labor free and you're paying for the tubing and the highly skilled welder.
May I suggest a class in economics? You're already past that stage since you're a socialist.
Mark cleary
May 16, 2021, 12:58:23 PM5/16/21
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Deacon Mark
sms
May 16, 2021, 5:08:01 PM5/16/21
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On 5/16/2021 9:58 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
<snip>
<snip>
> My Habanero Team Issue Nuevo with all Shimano 6800 and Shimano wheels ( the cheaper ones), and a full Ritchey cockpit came in a $3000 shipped to my house 4 years ago. It was cheaper than any equivalent CF equipped bike I could have bought from any of the the LBS by I guessing at least $200-300. I am sure there are plenty of decent LBS but the true ones that can do everything and get anything and serve everyone are rare. I dare say the place like Andrew run are few and far between. Right now if you go into the local Spec dealer the price you are going to pay for a bike, if you can get one is going to be $$$$. Better in my opinion to find a Ti frame or get a good steel one and then build it yourself or send it through Andrew. My Ti in 58 cm with no pedals weighs under 18 pounds by just a hair.
I think you'll find that things have changed in the past four years.
Carbon-fiber frames have become significantly less expensive as volumes
from China have increased and production techniques have been automated.
Sure you can still pay a lot for a complete CF bicycle, with a lifetime
warranty to the original purchaser, but you don't have to.
With titanium you have the high cost of the basic material and the labor
cost of an experienced low-volume frame builder, neither of which you
have with mass-produced carbon-fiber frames.
Habanero is indeed a good deal.
John B.
May 17, 2021, 4:45:06 AM5/17/21
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On Sun, 16 May 2021 14:07:55 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
Probably 10 years ago I saw CF bicycles for sale in Singapore for in
the neighborhood of $1,000 Sing Dollars, maybe about $1.30 to the U.S.
dollar at the time. No name and no guarantee, but still :-)
Re welding titanium - when I qualified many years ago we welded
titanium in an inert atmosphere box but I read that now days there are
much better methods. It may be that with modern methods - Tip Tig for
example - titanium welding might possibly be automated partially or
perhaps fully.
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
the neighborhood of $1,000 Sing Dollars, maybe about $1.30 to the U.S.
dollar at the time. No name and no guarantee, but still :-)
Re welding titanium - when I qualified many years ago we welded
titanium in an inert atmosphere box but I read that now days there are
much better methods. It may be that with modern methods - Tip Tig for
example - titanium welding might possibly be automated partially or
perhaps fully.
--
Cheers,
John B.
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