In place of four-year-degree requirements, many companies are instead focusing on skills-based hiring

[Catrike Rider]

No college degree? No problem. More companies are eliminating
requirements to attract the workers they need

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/companies-eliminate-college-degree-requirement-to-draw-needed-workers.html

Turns out that it's not just me that considers demonstrated skills and
experience more important than a college degree...

[John B.]

Your post would lead me to believe that companies don't promote based
on ability to do a job and refer to apprentice programs and
concentration on specific skills to do a job as though they are some
new, amazing, idea and yet this has, or was, the criteria from when
mankind lived in caves.

As an aside, it was my experience, at least in the construction
business that a collage degree was seldom sufficient qualification to
do a job although the basics learned in collage were nearly always
useful in actually "learning the trade".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Someone said that a high school education from the time I was in school was approximately the same as a BA today. I do not doubt that since I managed many projects and was really irritated by the lack of knowledge and work ethic even of PhD's. Of course I started reading very early, picked up a strong interest for science and read out all of the city libraries' non-fiction sections. High School was a bore and so they decided for me that I was not on college course. That was an advantage because I ended up taking every manual skill class such as machine shop, auto shop, wood shop, electronic shop, etc. So while the college bound were trying to figure out how to start a car, I was working on a car lot fixing old used cars. So I earned my first car while the twinkies had to have Daddy buy theirs.

As a result, in the Air Force, I worked the entire night shift, then covered launch and then went back to the barracks and practiced guitar.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 06:03:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I do not have a college degree, yet I supervised college graduates. My
son is now in the same circumstance.

[Sir Ridesalot]

What is a Collage Degree? Is it a degree in making collages?

I'd far prefer to hire someone with a College degree. ;<)

Cheers

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 17:00:31 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

Ooops, I made a mistook.

[John B.]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 20:09:18 -0400, Catrike Rider

I think that was my mistake :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

About high time. What's the sense of a clerk in a shoe store with a BA in basketweaving? -- AJ
>

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 02:48:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have known and worked with many people with degrees. Some of them
were very good at their jobs, and some were terrible. I can say the
same thing about the people I've worked with who had nothing beyond a
high school education, and sometimes not even that.

[William Crowell]

I got my college degree in basketweaving and then went on to graduate school, writing my Ph.D. dissertation on underwater basketweaving. However, despite my doctorate, I never could find any honest work, so I had no choice but to go to law school.

[Tim R]

But how do you assess skills when the job skills required are changing so fast? I think maybe we need more flexible people, generalists rather than expert in a particular skill that might not exist tomorrow. The demand for watch repair exists but is probably vanishingly small.

Most college classes don't teach specific job skills. Some do, like nursing, but when I worked in hospitals the 3 year nondegreed nurses with OJT were always better at the actual hands on patient care skills than the 4 year degree BSN nurses.

Getting a 4 year degree does require work ethic, a lot of persistence, and a lot of ability to tolerate and navigate a bureaucratic system. Those are job skills too.

[AMuzi]

I don't think that's dispositive.

I knew two English Lit MA cab drivers but I also know better
employed people with those degrees. One of my exes has two
literature Masters and is a landscape designer now at better
compensation than most academics in her field. ('most'
meaning adjuncts at barely over minimum wage)

My highest earning ex-employee completed a BS History, on
the surface unrelated to his position in the finance
industry. As has been noted here, learning how to think can
mean more than remembering details of what was taught
(engineering formulae or drug interactions excepted of course)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:23:39 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

>But how do you assess skills when the job skills required are changing so fast?

Some job skills change fast, others, not so much

> I think maybe we need more flexible people, generalists rather than expert in a particular skill that might not exist tomorrow. The demand for watch repair exists but is probably vanishingly small.
>
>Most college classes don't teach specific job skills. Some do, like nursing, but when I worked in hospitals the 3 year nondegreed nurses with OJT were always better at the actual hands on patient care skills than the 4 year degree BSN nurses.

Many, my daughter, for instance, got the OJT before and during her
pursuit of her degree.

>Getting a 4 year degree does require work ethic, a lot of persistence, and a lot of ability to tolerate and navigate a bureaucratic system. Those are job skills too.

The degrees also require skills, knowledge, and information that are
totally unrelated to the student's goal. Some exist for no other
reason than to increase revenue, others, nowdays, as a way to
indoctrinate and proselytize.

[Mark Cleary]

My furnace and AC are 24 years old so had them check and yes at this point they work but might as well replace them now. I happen to have a house with a furnace and ac upstairs and a furnace and ac downstairs. So 2 unit of each costing me $20,000 to replace. They guy putting them in I have known for years he did my first house AC replacement 37 years ago. He never went to college and is busy as they get. He works for himself and while he might not be wealthy he has always made a living and no need of welfare. I tell you that is the type of thing I would want to do now if I was just starting out. Teach me a trade that I can use the basically we all need. Plumbers, electricians, HVAC, and carpenters all are not going to be replaced my AI anytime soon.

Off topic what do you all think of the HVAC price. I needed 2, 2. ton Rheem AC's and 2, 70,000 BTU Rheem furnances. Cost $20,000 installed and seems like it will be about a 5-6 job he pretty well has the downstairs done in 3 days. Now to the up.
Deacon Mark

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:48:23 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

Think of all of the money that colleges rake in because Obama with a degree in "community organization" told everyone they should have a degree despite the fact that only a tiny percentage of them are competent enough to have a degree!

[Ted Heise]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 10:01:49 -0500,
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 7/12/2023 9:23 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > But how do you assess skills when the job skills required are
> > changing so fast? I think maybe we need more flexible people,
> > generalists rather than expert in a particular skill that
> > might not exist tomorrow. The demand for watch repair exists
> > but is probably vanishingly small.

The first employee at Cook Incorporated was the son of a local
jeweler, freshly graduated from high school. Mr. Cook wanted
someone good with his hands, and industrious. This fellow went on
to invent a clever way to form metal coils that were the basis for
quite a number of wire guides. He has many dozens of patents.
Last time I was at HQ, he was still working as emeritus head
engineer--some 60 years later. His success has been a great
combination of skills in both dexterity and thinking.

> > Most college classes don't teach specific job skills. Some
> > do, like nursing, but when I worked in hospitals the 3 year
> > nondegreed nurses with OJT were always better at the actual
> > hands on patient care skills than the 4 year degree BSN
> > nurses.

This reminds me of a grad school experience. I needed a simple
circuit to trigger a single firing of a pulsed laser. One of the
PhDs in the electronics shop gave me a very thorough tutorial on
such circuits. When I built it in the way described, it did not
work. I went back and spoke with a tech who gave me a circuit
diagram. When I put that together, it worked flawlessly. So I
took away that practical hands-on experience is often as important
(if not more so) than knowledge of theory.

I. M. Kolthoff, a father of analytical chemstry, put it well:
Theory guides, but experiment decides.

> > Getting a 4 year degree does require work ethic, a lot of
> > persistence, and a lot of ability to tolerate and navigate a
> > bureaucratic system. Those are job skills too.
>
> I don't think that's dispositive.

Sure, but I don't think Tim implied it was. There is truth to it,
even though it's not the whole story.

> I knew two English Lit MA cab drivers but I also know better
> employed people with those degrees. One of my exes has two
> literature Masters and is a landscape designer now at better
> compensation than most academics in her field. ('most' meaning
> adjuncts at barely over minimum wage)
>
> My highest earning ex-employee completed a BS History, on the
> surface unrelated to his position in the finance industry. As
> has been noted here, learning how to think can mean more than
> remembering details of what was taught (engineering formulae or
> drug interactions excepted of course)

I work in a very specialized field, regulatory science applied to
medical device development. I've done very well, and my graduate
training was a factor--though also not the whole story. It helped
develop my thinking skills and open the door to being hired into
the field of my career.

My undergrad was at a small department with no grad program, so
not highly regarded by others. Still, I entered grad school at
least as well (if not better) prepared as any in my cohort--many
who had come from prestigious programs. My take away was that the
effort an individual puts into learning is at least as important
as the teaching itself--probably more so.

Over the years, I've hired several dozen scientists to work under
me. A criterion in the screening process was a graduate degree in
a natural science discipline. This has worked well to screen the
number of applicants down to a manageable size. Most of my hires
have done well, so the degrees have not hurt. I likely missed
some good people this way, but I also know that working with
regulators goes better when one has the implied credibility that
comes with an advanced degree.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Tom Kunich]

-
Learning skills are entirely unrelated to college programs. I did move to get a degree since Diablo wanted to make me a manager if I had one. And sitting in those classes with people like Frank blathering on with mostly nonsense was more than I could take. In what universe did it make me a better manager to learn how to make ceramics?

[Tom Kunich]

I've designed and programmed so many medical devices that I couldn't count them. I did the first actual correctly working Heart/Lung machine. Could there be any device that would seem more likely to need a degree and didn't? To tell you the truth I can barely remember it since that was very early in my engineering career. But then I can't even remember the ultrasound cancer detection and treatment devices at my last technical job. After that the jobs I held I would hardly call technical.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/12/2023 11:01 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/12/2023 9:23 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> But how do you assess skills when the job skills required are changing
>> so fast?  I think maybe we need more flexible people, generalists
>> rather than expert in a particular skill that might not exist
>> tomorrow.  The demand for watch repair exists but is probably
>> vanishingly small.
>>
>> Most college classes don't teach specific job skills.  Some do, like
>> nursing, but when I worked in hospitals the 3 year nondegreed nurses
>> with OJT were always better at the actual hands on patient care skills
>> than the 4 year degree BSN nurses.
>>
>> Getting a 4 year degree does require work ethic, a lot of persistence,
>> and a lot of ability to tolerate and navigate a bureaucratic system.
>> Those are job skills too.
>>
>
> I don't think that's dispositive.
>
> I knew two English Lit MA cab drivers but I also know better employed
> people with those degrees. One of my exes has two literature Masters and
> is a landscape designer now at better compensation than most academics
> in her field. ('most' meaning adjuncts at barely over minimum wage)

Obviously, some degrees are more valuable than others. A philosophy
degree specializing in aesthetics is probably most useful as scratch
paper. English literature degrees train a person to appreciate English
literature. But those and similar ones still indicate to certain
employer that the person is likely to have a useful level of
intelligence, initiative and communication skill.

> My highest earning ex-employee completed a BS History, on the surface
> unrelated to his position in the finance industry. As has been noted
> here, learning how to think can mean more than remembering details of
> what was taught (engineering formulae or drug interactions excepted of
> course)

Engineering education confers much more than vaguely "learning how to
think." A person with a BS (or more likely BA) in History would be a
lousy candidate for designing a reciprocating power transmission shaft
with side loads, a welded joint with eccentric loads, etc. The history
major wouldn't even know what facts to look up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

While we're in agreement that mechanical engineering is more useful than English Literature as a form of employment, exactly how many book contracts do you suppose are awarded to Mechanical Engineers? Most of the paperback fictions are written by people without any degrees and the ones that hit the jackpot (very, very many) make a great deal more money for a great deal less work.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Think of all of the money that colleges rake in because Obama with a degree in "community organization" told everyone they should have a degree despite the fact that only a tiny percentage of them are competent enough to have a degree!

Times have changed. Originally, college was for the sons of the
wealthy, where they would learn how to act like gentlemen. Eventually,
someone noticed that all the students in college were wealthy and
decided that if they went to college, they could also become wealthy.
Reversed cause and effect. So, we now have institutions that teach
students how to become wealthy. It works, occasionally.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tom Kunich]

Very occasionally and now skilled manual workers are in much higher demand. I have been approached two dozen times to take a job at a company that is subcontracting to NASA down near the pacific launch site. They cannot find a person willing to move there. I wonder what they are paying if they can't get anyone? The companies locally are still paying $180K for someone that does what I do but they don't want to hire someone as old as I am and I don't want to work now that I can live comfortably for the rest of my life. I wouldn't want to mess up my bicycling.

[Catrike Rider]

..or perhaps, be capable of memorizing stuff. "Learning" something by
rote is not the same as understanding it.

[Andre Jute]

Joke all you like, William, but in my house, when we saw a writer trying to hard, especially in the movies, to make his characters stand out yet be relatable, we would say, "That's the underwater rabbi at work!" One day the local rector brought boss, no less than an archbishop, the capo di capo tutti of the whole caboodle, to dinner, and this fellow told me that at an ecumenical bash he met a rabbi who ministered to the scuba crowd... Next, I suggested, we could make my fictional rabbi a karate mohel, doing his business underwater, kachoppa, squish, squish, then you won't hear the babies crying, gurgle, gurgle. A week later a film company executive came to visit, and I explained this idea to him over a second bottle of whiskey. He said, "Nah, we already did Edward Scissorhands. Now we're looking for life-enhancing scripts." It's a hard enough life being a writer without lawyers making of our agony. -- AJ

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/12/2023 2:36 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:35:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Obviously, some degrees are more valuable than others. A philosophy
>> degree specializing in aesthetics is probably most useful as scratch
>> paper. English literature degrees train a person to appreciate English
>> literature. But those and similar ones still indicate to certain
>> employer that the person is likely to have a useful level of
>> intelligence, initiative and communication skill.
>
> ..or perhaps, be capable of memorizing stuff. "Learning" something by
> rote is not the same as understanding it.

Speculations from those who have never earned a college degree are
worthless. Such people have very little idea what's really involved in
earning a degree.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 15:51:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/12/2023 2:36 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:35:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Obviously, some degrees are more valuable than others. A philosophy
>>> degree specializing in aesthetics is probably most useful as scratch
>>> paper. English literature degrees train a person to appreciate English
>>> literature. But those and similar ones still indicate to certain
>>> employer that the person is likely to have a useful level of
>>> intelligence, initiative and communication skill.
>>
>> ..or perhaps, be capable of memorizing stuff. "Learning" something by
>> rote is not the same as understanding it.
>
>Speculations from those who have never earned a college degree are
>worthless. Such people have very little idea what's really involved in
>earning a degree.

That you think your "earning" a degree is more significant than what a
person can actually do, tells me all I need to know about
you...actually, you just confirmed what I suspected from my first
encounter with you... that you're just a collection of rude loud
noises with no real accomplishments.

Neither sitting in, or standing in a classroom is not an
accomplishment.

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 7:36:43 PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
"Learning" something by
> rote is not the same as understanding it.
>

Quite. But the distinction is a useful guide to hiring. -- AJ
>

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:23:39 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

But to what extent are jobs changing? People are still selling cars,
farming potato's, raising beef animals, building roads and bridges,
drilling for oil, building pipelines, and so on. The two most common
jobs in the U.S. at the moment are Construction worker and Truck
Driver.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:48:23?AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 10:50:47?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > No college degree? No problem. More companies are eliminating
>> > requirements to attract the workers they need
>> >
>> > https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/companies-eliminate-college-degree-requirement-to-draw-needed-workers.html
>> >
>> > Turns out that it's not just me that considers demonstrated skills and
>> > experience more important than a college degree...
>> >
>> About high time. What's the sense of a clerk in a shoe store with a BA in basketweaving? -- AJ
>> >
>I got my college degree in basketweaving and then went on to graduate school, writing my Ph.D. dissertation on underwater basketweaving. However, despite my doctorate, I never could find any honest work, so I had no choice but to go to law school.

Law Degree? Honest Work?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 11:23:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Think of all of the money that colleges rake in because Obama with a degree in "community organization" told everyone they should have a degree despite the fact that only a tiny percentage of them are competent enough to have a degree!
>
>Times have changed. Originally, college was for the sons of the
>wealthy, where they would learn how to act like gentlemen. Eventually,
>someone noticed that all the students in college were wealthy and
>decided that if they went to college, they could also become wealthy.
>Reversed cause and effect. So, we now have institutions that teach
>students how to become wealthy. It works, occasionally.

Become wealthy? Are you sure about that? I read a lot today about how
one has to go in debt and borrow money just to attend college.

Admittedly it was years ago but when I attended a "college" (granted a
feeble little 2 year degree) my father, who worked in the Post Office,
could afford to pay my tuition and room and board while I, of course,
worked part time for pocket money.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:48:23?AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 10:50:47?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > No college degree? No problem. More companies are eliminating
>> > requirements to attract the workers they need
>> >
>> > https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/companies-eliminate-college-degree-requirement-to-draw-needed-workers.html
>> >
>> > Turns out that it's not just me that considers demonstrated skills and
>> > experience more important than a college degree...
>> >
>> About high time. What's the sense of a clerk in a shoe store with a BA in basketweaving? -- AJ
>> >
>Think of all of the money that colleges rake in because Obama with a degree in "community organization" told everyone they should have a degree despite the fact that only a tiny percentage of them are competent enough to have a degree!

Nope, wrong again.

Obama majored in political science with a specialty in international
relations and in English literature . He graduated with a Bachelor of
Arts degree in 1983 and a 3.7 GPA.

Stop lying about your betters. After all you weren't bright enough to
get through High School.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 10:01:49 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

The company I worked for in Indonesia was owned by three partners. One
with a Masters in some sort of money/finance, one working on his Phd
in Computer Science and the third with, I suppose, an Indonesian high
school degree. The "finance" guy, of course, took care of the
financial end of things, the Computer guy was the salesman and the
Local guy managed relations with local government officials.

Without any one of the three the company would have been far less
successful then it was.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Technology has caused some jobs to change significantly. For example,
medical technology has advanced greatly. We have a new neighbor who
works in nuclear medicine. Whatever that is, I'm sure it wasn't common
20 years ago. Mechanical Engineering design makes much, much more use of
solid modeling, finite element analysis, etc. Surveying has come a long
way since old style transits and steel tapes, and so on.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 07:24:02 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 11:23:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Think of all of the money that colleges rake in because Obama with a degree in "community organization" told everyone they should have a degree despite the fact that only a tiny percentage of them are competent enough to have a degree!
>>
>>Times have changed. Originally, college was for the sons of the
>>wealthy, where they would learn how to act like gentlemen. Eventually,
>>someone noticed that all the students in college were wealthy and
>>decided that if they went to college, they could also become wealthy.
>>Reversed cause and effect. So, we now have institutions that teach
>>students how to become wealthy. It works, occasionally.

>Become wealthy? Are you sure about that?

Yes. It was an extraordinary student from the lower classes who could
afford to go attend college. Those who did usually had a sponsor,
mentor, or were employed. For example:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday>
"The young Michael Faraday, who was the third of four children, having
only the most basic school education, had to educate himself."
Albert Einstein worked as a patent clerk to pay for his tuition. I'm
sure there are others.

>I read a lot today about how
>one has to go in debt and borrow money just to attend college.

Good timing. The regents are proposing a tuition rate hike of about
$1,800 per year. Those on financial assistance are not affected by
the proposed rate hike.
<https://calmatters.org/education/2023/06/cal-state-tuition-increase/>

Yes, college costs money. Not everyone has money for college.
Usually, it's the student's parents who pay the tuition. If the
student can demonstrate ability, then he can apply for a grant from
companies, government, philanthropists, and wealthy individuals.
<http://www.collegescholarships.org/grants/states/california.htm>
There are also low interest student loans. Prime interest rate for a
commercial loan is currently 8.25% while a student loan is only about
5 to 6%.

>Admittedly it was years ago but when I attended a "college" (granted a
>feeble little 2 year degree) my father, who worked in the Post Office,
>could afford to pay my tuition and room and board while I, of course,
>worked part time for pocket money.

My parents paid for most of my 6 year college education while I held
various part time jobs to help as best I could. During my last year
in college, I had to quit my job(s) and concentrate on graduating. A
major incentive for staying in school and getting decent grades was
maintaining my student deferment and not getting drafted into the
military.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 20:50:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

It must be a different world out there in California.

My father went to two years of college, paid for by his father who was
a chicken farmer in New Hampshire. He had to drop out in 1929 when the
Great Depression hit, but he in turn, working in the Post Office, paid
for both myself and my younger brother to go to college. State
University and a "college" teaching Aircraft Engineering. I know that
in my case tuition,room and board was paid and I assume the same for
brother.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 13:00:00 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

As an addition, Dartmouth College, one of THE colleges, is located
about 7 miles north of my home town and local lads didn't expect to go
there unless funded by a "grant". One of my best friend's cousins was
a high school skiing champion and had a grant from the college for
100% - tuition, room and board.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[William Crowell]

Of course not, John!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 13:00:00 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 20:50:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>My parents paid for most of my 6 year college education while I held
>>various part time jobs to help as best I could. During my last year
>>in college, I had to quit my job(s) and concentrate on graduating. A
>>major incentive for staying in school and getting decent grades was
>>maintaining my student deferment and not getting drafted into the
>>military.
>
>It must be a different world out there in California.

Everything is bigger in Texas. Everything is weirder in California.

>My father went to two years of college, paid for by his father who was
>a chicken farmer in New Hampshire.

Two year colleges are also known as city colleges, community colleges
or sometimes trade schools. I attended one (Santa Monica City
College). They are funded by a complex mix of sources:
<https://lao.ca.gov/education/edbudget/details/50>
but in general, serve the residents of the area (city, county or
state). In general, they offer much cheaper tuition than a 4 year
college. However, they do not offer the traditional BS, MS and PhD
diplomas.

You'll probably ask why I initially attended a 2 year college instead
of going directly to a 4 year college. It wasn't about money. My
grades were marginal and I couldn't find a reasonably close college
that would accept me. That was 1965, which was also the year when the
Vietnam war draft was started. To obtain a deferment, I would have
attended any college that would take me.

>He had to drop out in 1929 when the
>Great Depression hit, but he in turn, working in the Post Office, paid
>for both myself and my younger brother to go to college. State
>University and a "college" teaching Aircraft Engineering. I know that
>in my case tuition,room and board was paid and I assume the same for
>brother.

For the first 3 years of college, I lived at mostly home in West Smog
Angeles. The 4th year was in an apartment. The last 2 years were at
Cal Poly Pomona, where I initially lived in an on campus dormitory and
later in various off campus apartments and houses. I was working in
all but the last (6th) year. At the time, it really did require 6
years to obtain a BSEE.

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 10:42:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Or you could have volunteered for the Air Force or Navy, served 4
years, taken collage courses while on active duty and the finished
your education on the G.I. Bill.

Oh yes, and I attended a seminar held by Dartmouth Collage where it
was stated that "Veterans" invariably got better grades then those
straight from high school to college.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/13/2023 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Oh yes, and I attended a seminar held by Dartmouth Collage where it
> was stated that "Veterans" invariably got better grades then those
> straight from high school to college.

I certainly found that to be true, on average. That is, the best
students were not always veterans; but as a whole, veterans averaged
better than kids straight from high school.

I've long thought that every kid should do _some_ sort of strictly
disciplined community service for two years. Very few 18 year olds are
are smart enough to make good career or life choices.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 08:29:12 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Yes, I could have enlisted. However, it didn't seem like a good idea
at the time. Within my family and friends, enlisting wasn't even a
consideration. I don't recall the logic and don't want to rationalize
my decisions. It was generally assumed that I would go directly to
college and do my best to avoid military service.

>Oh yes, and I attended a seminar held by Dartmouth Collage where it
>was stated that "Veterans" invariably got better grades then those
>straight from high school to college.

Probably true, especially since they were 4 to 6 years older and were
likely to have started a family, which tends to be an incentive to
make better decisions. Had I enlisted, I'm certain that my grades and
life decisions would have been better.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 22:11:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I've long thought that every kid should do _some_ sort of strictly
>disciplined community service for two years.

Wow.. Just wow!

[John B.]

Singapore does that. Universal National Service for 2 years. It is
mandatory and those who dodge it are liable for prison. As much as 3
years in some cases. Service can be in the Military, the Police, or
"Civil Defense", which I think includes the fire department.

It seems to work in Singapore as it was started in 1967, 2 years after
the country became independent, so just about everybody has served and
there isn't an alternative. If you "ran away to Canada" you could
never return as there is no limit to the obligation.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 15:49:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Military service has a purpose. Any other forced "strictly disciplined
community service" is simply an attempt to indoctrinate. Some people
(see above) can't stand individualism.

[AMuzi]

Examples abound with divergent results.

South Korea has botched their system for years, widely
considered a waste of time with little training whatsoever.



--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 6:51:00 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> But to what extent are jobs changing? People are still selling cars,
> farming potato's, raising beef animals, building roads and bridges,
> drilling for oil, building pipelines, and so on. The two most common
> jobs in the U.S. at the moment are Construction worker and Truck
> Driver.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Here are a couple of books that I found worth reading that relate to that.

Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, by John Epstein. This was very readable and he made some good points. It doesn't apply to all fields but for some it seemed spot on. I think he used the example of motor vehicles replacing horse drawn carts for freight transportation. The drivers survived, they just converted. The horses didn't. Anyway, the book made me think a bit about hiring decisions I was making at work, and the limitations personnel rules that made it hard to be flexible.

The End of the World Is Just the Beginning: Mapping the Collapse of Globalization, by Peter Zeihan. This is a more comprehensive and speculative (although it provides a lot of data to support) look at the future. It's also long and a bit dense with information, not quite the popular science version. I would put it on the list of books any educated person should have read at some point. At any rate, if he is correct the future will have a much larger change than the Epstein book addressed.

(and by educated i don't necessarily mean college educated. People who actually read books are a subset of people who went to college, and it may be a small subset depending on their career. I suspect it is a larger percentage than that of the population who didn't attend college.)

[Tom Kunich]

Don't be ridiculous Frank. I knew more about electronics engineering before I got out of high school than most of the EE's I worked with. Then in the Air Force the 3 months of basic electronics filled in the holes. The most accurate clocks in the world were not designed by engineers but by clock makers. Don't overrate a degree as private industry is now seeing they have been doing. I was not unusual though perhaps much broader in scope.

[Tom Kunich]

It was very rare for me to repeat a project. From the small microtitration device I designed for Dr;. Kary Mullis, I did redesign a much larger one with the built-in heaters etc. about 5 years after. Otherwise, virtually every project I completed was entirely unique. Usually they all used different microprocessors that were best for the specific project. I would hardly refer to that as performing a job "by rote".. The poison gas detector even had the incorrect formula given to me by the two physicists. When I told them that it didn't work they insisted that I was doing something wrong. So I had to get a book on calculus and see where they went wrong. After figuring that out I reprogrammed the device and it worked perfectly down to the lowest percentages. I see that as understanding the problem.

[Tom Kunich]

Nuclear medicine was quite common 20 years ago. The targeting mechanisms have improved so that the radiation destroys less viable flesh, but that is nothing more than an advancement in practice. I wish I could remember my project on using ultrasound to treat cancer but that is completely gone. I don't even remember working there, though the VP of the firm let me go when his daughter, the President, died from her cancers. I thought that it might have been my work and emailed him but he said he just gave up the business and sold his patents when his daughter died. That was the time I got my concussion.

[John B.]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 08:06:00 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 6:51:00?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> But to what extent are jobs changing? People are still selling cars,
>> farming potato's, raising beef animals, building roads and bridges,
>> drilling for oil, building pipelines, and so on. The two most common
>> jobs in the U.S. at the moment are Construction worker and Truck
>> Driver.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Here are a couple of books that I found worth reading that relate to that.
>
>Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, by John Epstein. This was very readable and he made some good points. It doesn't apply to all fields but for some it seemed spot on. I think he used the example of motor vehicles replacing horse drawn carts for freight transportation. The drivers survived, they just converted. The horses didn't. Anyway, the book made me think a bit about hiring decisions I was making at work, and the limitations personnel rules that made it hard to be flexible.

After I retired from the Air Force I joined a company doing
construction for oil exploration in Indonesia and the majority of our
people were "specialists". Heavy Equipment Maintenance, "Dirt Guy",
Crane Operator, etc. But every once in a while we'd hire a guy because
"he knew the boss", or "he really needed a job and looked like a good
guy" and a surprising number of these "unskilled" people did a great
job.

We once hired a bloke that had worked as a swimming coach at a college
in N. Thailand and had lost his job (for seducing some of the female
swimmers it was alleged) and was in Singapore without enough money to
pay his hotel bill. The Project Manager on a smallish job in S.
Sumatra took him on as a "Logistic Manager" and he did a really great
job.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/14/2023 1:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Don't be ridiculous Frank. I knew more about electronics engineering before I got out of high school than most of the EE's I worked with.

I call bullshit. You have very little idea what an Electrical Engineer
knows.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

....as if you you'd know.

[Tom Kunich]

I made a living at it and you didn't. So why are you pretending to know anything at all about it? Or are you again playing toesies with Liebermann who never held a job as an engineer and spits absolute ignorance about it all of the time? Or why don't you tell us what the hell you actually know about Flunky when you say that "Yes, he can too program"?

Not one of the three of you have ever led one minute of a respectable life. Every time Liebermann posts you can see why he never held a job for more than a month or two. His crap about knowing all about electronics engineering because he can replace boards in the desktop and ink jet cartridges in a printer for people with even less knowledge than he has could gag a maggot.

Flunky reads what Liebermann posts and cannot even contradict him when the crap is pouring out of Liebermann's eyeballs. That tells me that Flunky is not an engineer.

As for you - what do you know about electronics engineering? For someone that pretends to be a mechanical engineer I find it strange that you think that the height of bicycle engineering is a cast iron frame with a 6 speed freewheel group and bar end friction shifters.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2023 8:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 10:15:22 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/14/2023 1:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Don't be ridiculous Frank. I knew more about electronics engineering before I got out of high school than most of the EE's I worked with.
>> I call bullshit. You have very little idea what an Electrical Engineer
>> knows.
>
> I made a living at it and you didn't.

Tom, you made a living as a job-hopping electronics technician. You were
not an Electrical Engineer, at least not by any nationally recognized
standard. Programming motion control in a typewriter-sized lab device is
not Electrical Engineering.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

As usual you prefer lying to the truth - did you have a friend who knew me as well as your friends that owned guns?

My resume is clear and if you think that I could get a job without the hiring company checking my previous managers, that shows that you were so worthless as a teacher that you didn't DARE change jobs because of your poor references. Many of my references that gave me glowing recommendations were PhD's and you don't even have a masters. For that matter, Youngstown doesn't even list you as teaching mechanical engineering but "engineering technology". There is a reason for that. Originally I pointed out that they said that you taught "industrial engineering" which is NOT mechanical engineering. So you sniveled to them and they changed it but NOT to mechanical engineering but to "not quite what he claims"

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:06:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I knew more about electronics engineering before I got out
>of high school than most of the EE's I worked with.

Amazing. You "got out of high school" by not graduating. If you
hadn't dropped out, you would have graduated in 1962:
<http://castlemonthighschool.org/alumni/3481231/tom-kunich.html>

>Then in the Air Force the 3 months of basic electronics
>filled in the holes.

...and then you hung out at libraries and furiously read everything?
In the 1960's, most schools were still teaching vacuum tubes. Did you
read anything about geometry, trigonometry, linear algebra, matrix
arithmetic, differential equations, complex variables, integral
calculus, engineering economics, probability, Fourier analysis,
trigonometry, vector arithmetic, etc? Did you read about how to use a
slide rule? The first pocket calculator was released in 1970 so you
probably didn't have a calculator. Maybe a mechanical calculator that
could only add, subtract, and maybe multiply (tabulator):
<http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/history_of_electronic_calculators.html>
Maybe a teletype machine and modem to talk to timeshare computer.
If you had only read about electronics, you would have been totally
lost without the math, physics, chemistry and such.

06/07/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/QNPNSofg064/m/Xaamy15iBQAJ>
"I would warrant that I've read more than 20 times more books than you
have. I read out three public libraries, the military library and all
of the books I used to gain the knowledge to become an engineer."

[John B.]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 17:12:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

You might be interested to know that nearly all Air Force training
(for enlisted men) is designed to give them a rudimental knowledge of
the subject, being trained for - a "3" skill level. There are 3 skill
levels. 3 level - Apprentice, 5 level, Journeyman and 7 lever Master,
to use civilian terms.
Tech Schools range in length from 6 to 72 weeks in length, depending
on the subject.

After graduating from Tech School and being assigned to a operational
unit one is trained, by what the Air Foresee refers to as OJT (On the
Job Training) to work on the specific devices used by the unit you are
assigned to.

Thus if assigned to a B-52 unit you will learn abut B-42 bits and if
assigned to a F-15 unit then F-15 bits.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

By 1962 NO ONE was teaching vacuum tubes. All of our radar was solid state. And I was using the first germanium transistors at home while in high school. Yes, in the late 50's I knew all about vacuum tubes but they weren't really used for anything very rapidly. I have a clock radio from then that I still use that is entirely transistors. Why don't you know that?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/17/2023 10:56 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> By 1962 NO ONE was teaching vacuum tubes.

Absolute bullshit. They were covered in some detail in an Electrical
Engineering fundamentals class I took about 1967.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 07:56:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 5:12:17?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>"In the 1960's, most schools were still teaching vacuum tubes."

>By 1962 NO ONE was teaching vacuum tubes.

Read what I actually wrote (see quote above). I didn't say that there
were no transistorized products. I said that the schools were still
teaching tubes during the 1960's. I didn't get much on semiconductors
until my last 2 years in college (1970 - 1971).
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-liebermann-151823/>
One of the reasons that colleges were so far behind was that text
books took some time to be written, edited, approved, printed,
distributed, etc. As I recall, the library books were chronically
lacking in current content. Fortunately, there were research reports
and trade publications available. Of course, you didn't attend
college, so you would probably not have any knowledge of such
problems.

>All of our radar was solid state.

Wrong. I'm fairly sure that most of the radar sets still used
klystrons, magnetrons, backward wave oscillators, CRT's, and hydrogen
thyratrons. There were probably some transistors in your unspecified
model radar, but they were probably limited to low frequency and low
power operation.

>And I was using the first germanium transistors at home while
>in high school.

I build an AM radio receiver using a CK722 transistor in middle
school. I was in the 8th grade (1961). I had only a minimal
understanding of what I was doing. I copied most of the design from
Popular Electronics magazine. It worked for about 3 days and then
died for no obvious reason.

>Yes, in the late 50's I knew all about vacuum tubes but they
>weren't really used for anything very rapidly.

Vacuum tubes were in use for well into the 1980's. The Russians like
them because they weren't susceptible to EMP failures and were far
more mechanically rugged than the transistors of the day.

>I have a clock radio from then that I still use that is entirely
>transistors.

Again, this is about what the schools were teaching.

>Why don't you know that?

Because I can't read your mind.

[Tom Kunich]

So not only were your mechanical engineering skills out of date, but the CLASSES you took were as well. Thanks for telling us that. Radar did not use vacuum tubes after 1950.

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom, since you never went near an engineering classroom, you have
absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 11:03:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Radar did not use vacuum tubes after 1950.

As a former investor in a friends avionics shop, I can testify that
vacuum tubes were still flying well into the 1970 and beyond. Avionics
tends to be a rather conservative business, especially when the FAA
demands that everything flying must be TSO (technical standards
orders) approved. The new technology doesn't fly until it's quite
reliable. I don't know how the military handles it's new technology,
but I suspect that they're also quite conservative.

"DARPA sees future in vacuum tubes" (August 15, 2015)
<https://newatlas.com/darpa-next-gen-vacuum-tubes/38880/>
"...vacuum tubes or radio valves seem as dead as high button shoes and
buggy whips, but DARPA sees them as very much the technology of the
future."

High power broadcast vacuum tubes are expensive. Few can afford a new
tube, so refurbishing is common.

It's not just high power tubes. You can still buy new vacuum tubes
from Russia, China, and Georgia:
<https://www.wired.com/story/one-mans-quest-to-revive-the-great-american-vacuum-tube/>
<https://www.thetubestore.com/tube-brands/russian-tubes>
<https://www.tubedepot.com/t/brands/sino-chinese>
For the smaller tubes, the major market is for audiophiles.

Last year, a local machine shop asked my to repair the power supply in
an old GE NC machining center. The power supply featured 4 big
hydrogen thyratron tubes. None had failed. Instead, a clumsy
operator had opened the cabinet door, bypassed the interlock, and
rolled a push cart into 2 of the tubes. Fortunately, all he did was
break the bakelite base, crack the ceramic socket, and tear up some
wiring. I fixed with some high temp epoxy, refractory cement and a
tiny HHO gas welder.

Incidentally, in 1976, a Russian defector landed his MiG-25 in
Japan(?). Upon inspection, they that it was full of vacuum tubes:
<https://www.historynet.com/mig-25/>
"The airplane had powerful pulse doppler radar, weighing over half a
ton and full of delicate vacuum tubes, yet that radar had a range of
barely 56 miles."
The MiG-25 was in production from 1964 to 1985. At some point, the
radar (and voice comm) might have been upgraded to transistors, maybe.

[Tom Kunich]

And since employers are finally back to hiring people that know what they're doing instead of the sort of degreed morons like you and Jeff and Flunky, perhaps you don't realize just how little you taught despite "your friend" telling you otherwise.

[Tom Kunich]

A Thyratron is not a vacuum tube And a Magnetron or BWO is not a tube at all in the conventional sense. if you're unaware of it. A Magnetron require the entire waveguide and waveguide terminator be held under a vacuum. That didn't make a Magnetron a vacuum tube. A Backwards Wave Oscillator again, was a magnetic device and not a vacuum tube as such.

I know you feel the need to prove to me that you have some sort of knowledge but since you can't and couldn't use what little you do know it is pointless.

I'm really impressed that you are using idiot things like a Mig-25 that had a half ton doppler with no range as an example of just how great vacuum tubes were. Are you the guy trying to revive the Great American Vacuum Tube? From your postings I wouldn't be surprised. ALL of the control instruments and recording instruments at Physics International which was the first job I got when I got out of the Air Force were transistors and the charging and firing were transformers, diodes and spark gaps. And that was in 1966 and the machine delivered 25 million volts. Tell us all about devices made 10 years before you were born needing to be service with new vacuum tubes. The thermal noise in a vacuum tube meant it was impossible to use it for small signals. The next job was Berkeley Computer which used entirely integrated circuits. The next was recovering commercial aircraft during the Vietnam Airlift and EVERY device on a commercial jet airliner was transistors and integrated circuits.

Though it is interesting that your degree was awarded for knowing about Vacuum Tubes. No wonder you couldn't get a job as an engineer.

[Ted Heise]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:15:06 -0700 (PDT),
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 11:59:30???AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> > Last year, a local machine shop asked my to repair the power
> > supply in an old GE NC machining center. The power supply
> > featured 4 big hydrogen thyratron tubes. None had failed.
> > Instead, a clumsy operator had opened the cabinet door,
> > bypassed the interlock, and rolled a push cart into 2 of the
> > tubes. Fortunately, all he did was break the bakelite base,
> > crack the ceramic socket, and tear up some wiring. I fixed
> > with some high temp epoxy, refractory cement and a tiny HHO
> > gas welder.

> A Thyratron is not a vacuum tube...

Regardless of these niceties, I had an awesome (in the correct
sense of the word) experience with a thyratron. In this case, it
was a large metal cylinder, slightly larger than a gallon bucket
of paint, used inside an excimer laser. Before working inside the
laser, the manual instructed the user to discharge it by inserting
a long metal rod through a hole at one edge and then touching the
point of it to another location.

When I did this, the bang was so loud that others in my research
group could hear it several rooms down the hall. I almost pooped
my pants it was so impressive. Folks came rushing in to see what
had happened and if I was okay.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Tom Kunich]

Magnetic devices can hold unbelievable charges. The machine I helped operate (B square) would deliver a 25 million volt pulse to the target chamber and the large machine (B cube) would punch through a 125 million volt pulse. These were operated by solid state diodes and spark gaps for the discharge. They commonly exploded the 100,00 volt .1 uf capacitors that were inside a metal casing with oil insulation all around them. We would also fill the entire tank with oil before a shot. We were in a large concrete building that would shake when the machines were fired. During charging and firing we have flashing red lights and siren-like alarms going off so that everyone would be aware to take cover until after the shot. The target room could take a shot of high voltage electrons or sharply focused gamma rays. It could melt steel if you tried.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:15:06 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 11:59:30?AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>A Thyratron is not a vacuum tube

True. It's a hydrogen gas filled tube at 0.5 torr (0.01
pound-force/sq-inch).

>And a Magnetron or BWO is not a tube at all in the conventional sense.

If there's a glass envelope, with a hard vacuum, partial vacuum, or
gas filled. It's a type of tube. Tubes are not limited to counting
the number of grids (diodes, triodes, tetrodes, pentodes). Strictly
speaking, a magnetron is a vacuum diode.

>if you're unaware of it.

Enlighten me. If a magnetron or BWO (which is actually a TWT or
traveling wave tube0, what should it be called?

>A Magnetron require the entire waveguide and waveguide terminator
>be held under a vacuum.

The waveguide is not in a vacuum. There is a short insulated wire
(actually a short piece of coaxial cable), with a loop on one end and
a 1/4 wave element on the other. The 1/4 wave element can go to a
coaxial connector or act as a radiator inside the wave guide.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=coax+to+waveguide+transition&tbm=isch>

>That didn't make a Magnetron a vacuum tube.

True. Having a filament inside a vacuum does not make anything a
magnetron.

>A Backwards Wave Oscillator again, was a magnetic device and not
>a vacuum tube as such.

A BWO is a type of traveling wave tube, which incidentally had both
magnets and a vacuum inside.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=backware+wave+oscillator&tbm=isch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=travelling+wave+tube&tbm=isch>

Backward Wave Oscillator vs TWT-Difference between BWO and TWT
<https://www.rfwireless-world.com/Terminology/Backward-Wave-Oscillator-vs-TWT.html>

>I know you feel the need to prove to me that you have some
>sort of knowledge but since you can't and couldn't use what
>little you do know it is pointless.

How nice of you. Let's see if I understand. You accuse me of
incompetence. I demonstrate that your accusations are wrong. You
refuse to accept that you are wrong. However, you're correct. There
is no way I can proved anything to you and doing so is pointless.

>I'm really impressed that you are using idiot things like a
>Mig-25 that had a half ton doppler with no range as an example
>of just how great vacuum tubes were.

You can't read. I was responding to your comment:

"Radar did not use vacuum tubes after 1950".

with examples of vacuum tubes that are still in use and in production
today.

>Are you the guy trying to revive the Great American Vacuum Tube? From your postings I wouldn't be surprised. ALL of the control instruments and recording instruments at Physics International which was the first job I got when I got out of the Air Force were transistors and the charging and firing were transformers, diodes and spark gaps. And that was in 1966 and the machine delivered 25 million volts. Tell us all about devices made 10 years before you were born needing to be service with new vacuum tubes. The thermal noise in a vacuum tube meant it was impossible to use it for small signals. The next job was Berkeley Computer which used entirely integrated circuits. The next was recovering commercial aircraft during the Vietnam Airlift and EVERY device on a commercial jet airliner was transistors and integrated circuits.

I suspect that you're expecting me to waste huge amounts of time
debunking your amazing facts and overly impressive work history.
You're not worth the effort and nobody believes your amazing facts and
impressive work history. However, a few easy items.

However, I am curious about one item. Why aren't Physics
International and Berkeley Computer Corporation on your resume?
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>

Oddly, the phone list that Jay found for BCC has you listed as a
"Sup-(Engineering Support). See document page 27 (distribution list):
<http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/bcc/originals/Admin/BCC_A-11.pdf>
It existed from 1969 to 1972.

>Though it is interesting that your degree was awarded for knowing
>about Vacuum Tubes. No wonder you couldn't get a job as an engineer.

I think I explained that the colleges (and textbooks) were well behind
current technology. You are 4 years older than me. If you had gone
to college 4 years ahead of me, you would have received an education
consisting of 99% vacuum.

[Tom Kunich]

I read your reference to a Violet Kunich whoever she was and did a search on Thomas Kunich. Lo and behold, it showed a Thomas Kunich that lived in Fremont at my old married address there with an associate degree working as a business manager. I don't remember getting an associates degree but I do remember Diablo Research asking me to finish my degree so that they could make me a general manager. And I do remember Embarcadero Systems hiring me as a consulting manager to correct their manufacturing process and design and program components of their systems.

When I joined the Air Force I already knew how to design with vacuum tubes all the way up to tetrodes and pentodes. I have no idea why you believe that to be so difficult that it took a college education to learn. Libraries were already full of books on electronics design. Do not try and pretend that a magnetron is a tube.