Wheel built and tested 32 hole hub, 24 hole rim.

[James]

I got curious and bought:

. a 32 hole Miche Primato road hub pair.
. a Kinlin XR-300 24 hole rim.
. some DT Competition spokes and nipples.

That came to $170 AUD.

I drew the lacing pattern using a CAD program. 3x on the drive side
with 16 spokes, and 1x (well kinda) on the non drive side with 8 spokes.
The CAD program allowed me to measure the spoke length in 2D, and I
accounted for the hub flange offset to get the real spoke length. It
turned out I've calculated the lengths about 1mm too long, but that's
not an issue on such a deep aero profile rim, and better than being too
short.

I assembled the wheel over the weekend. It went together easily enough.
Stupidly I'd swapped the quantities of left and right spokes in the
order, so after noticing this was relieved to find exactly the right
spokes that I needed to complete the build in my box of spares!

I don't have a wheel truing jig at home, so did my best with an old
frame and some patience and cunning. I reckon it's within 0.5mm
deviation from true in all respects.

Test ride last night. 60 km with some lumps and bumps, but nothing too
savage. The wheel is nice and round still when I got home. It tracked
well over the uneven ground, so Trevor will be pleased.

I guess the test will be if it can survive a few years of abuse! Only
time will tell.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/6797865179/in/photostream

I think it weighs about the same as my Ksyrium rear wheel, but more aero
I'd guess, and a lot cheaper.

The NDS spokes feel almost as tight as the DS spokes.

--
JS

[Tom Ace]

On Jan 31, 2:03 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I got curious and bought:
>
> . a 32 hole Miche Primato road hub pair.
> . a Kinlin XR-300 24 hole rim.
> . some DT Competition spokes and nipples.

I'm curious about a couple things.

I haven't seen one of those rims in person;
how much are the spoke holes angled toward
their respective flanges?

And do you have a pic of the whole wheel,
or a drawing of the spoking pattern? I'm
curious about how much torque (if any) the
two sides of the wheel put on the hub shell.

Tom Ace

[James]

On 01/02/12 10:19, Tom Ace wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2:03 pm, James<james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I got curious and bought:
>>
>> . a 32 hole Miche Primato road hub pair.
>> . a Kinlin XR-300 24 hole rim.
>> . some DT Competition spokes and nipples.
>
> I'm curious about a couple things.
>
> I haven't seen one of those rims in person;
> how much are the spoke holes angled toward
> their respective flanges?

It is quite an aero rim, with not much allowance for aiming the nipples
at the flanges, as far as I could tell. To be honest I didn't look very
hard at the spoke holes. Maybe I laced it up completely inappropriately!

> And do you have a pic of the whole wheel,
> or a drawing of the spoking pattern? I'm
> curious about how much torque (if any) the
> two sides of the wheel put on the hub shell.

I can post a GIF of the CAD drawing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/6798702185/in/photostream

--
JS.

[DirtRoadie]

On Jan 31, 6:12 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/02/12 10:19, Tom Ace wrote:
>
> > On Jan 31, 2:03 pm, James<james.e.stew...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> I got curious and bought:
>
> >> . a 32 hole Miche Primato road hub pair.
> >> . a Kinlin XR-300 24 hole rim.
> >> . some DT Competition spokes and nipples.
>
> > I'm curious about a couple things.
>
> > I haven't seen one of those rims in person;
> > how much are the spoke holes angled toward
> > their respective flanges?
>
> It is quite an aero rim, with not much allowance for aiming the nipples
> at the flanges, as far as I could tell.  To be honest I didn't look very
> hard at the spoke holes.  Maybe I laced it up completely inappropriately!

I believe I recall reading that all the Kinlins are drilled straight.
But I agree that the relatively deep XR300's could hardly be drilled
any other way. But if they are anything other than straight, and
alternate, you couldn't have every spoke angled "right" anyhow.

I built some wheels with the XR-300's and thought they were very good.
They have also held up well. Did you find, as I did, that the
stiffness of the rim and fewer spokes makes it VERY easy to get the
wheel true? None of that endless chasing of little wiggles that seems
to haunt high spoke counts and flimsier rims.

> > And do you have a pic of the whole wheel,
> > or a drawing of the spoking pattern?  I'm
> > curious about how much torque (if any) the
> > two sides of the wheel put on the hub shell.
>
> I can post a GIF of the CAD drawing.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/6798702185/in/photostream
>

Well done.
DR

[Dark Helmet]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:03:42 +1100, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

60k and you are talking about years of longevity? I usually do close
to 60k a DAY from mid-march to mid-november. That's not all that far,
and my city streets are like exploded mine fields with potholes and
pothole rubble.

Report back on how well it works after several months and several
thousand miles and then all can help you be a judge on its success.

[James]

On 01/02/12 13:02, DirtRoadie wrote:
> On Jan 31, 6:12 pm, James<james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 01/02/12 10:19, Tom Ace wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 31, 2:03 pm, James<james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I got curious and bought:
>>
>>>> . a 32 hole Miche Primato road hub pair.
>>>> . a Kinlin XR-300 24 hole rim.
>>>> . some DT Competition spokes and nipples.
>>
>>> I'm curious about a couple things.
>>
>>> I haven't seen one of those rims in person;
>>> how much are the spoke holes angled toward
>>> their respective flanges?
>>
>> It is quite an aero rim, with not much allowance for aiming the nipples
>> at the flanges, as far as I could tell. To be honest I didn't look very
>> hard at the spoke holes. Maybe I laced it up completely inappropriately!
>
> I believe I recall reading that all the Kinlins are drilled straight.
> But I agree that the relatively deep XR300's could hardly be drilled
> any other way. But if they are anything other than straight, and
> alternate, you couldn't have every spoke angled "right" anyhow.

Indeed!

> I built some wheels with the XR-300's and thought they were very good.
> They have also held up well.

That's encouraging. They've reviewed well. I was thinking of using the
XR-270 for a front wheel on the Miche hub, possibly with bladed spokes.
Not sure about going radial. I haven't found anywhere that says the
Miche hubs are good for it or not.

> Did you find, as I did, that the
> stiffness of the rim and fewer spokes makes it VERY easy to get the
> wheel true? None of that endless chasing of little wiggles that seems
> to haunt high spoke counts and flimsier rims.

I haven't built a wheel for many years, and my wheels haven't needed
truing often, so I'm not really qualified to say, but it certainly
wasn't difficult to true, and to pull the whole wheel one way or the
other is pretty easy with only 8 spokes on one side ;-)

--
JS.

[James]

The days of 20,000km per annum are long behind me. These days I manage
between 10,000 and 11,000 km annually. My front Mavic OpenPro Ceramic
has been in use for over 10 years, and shows no signs of fatigue or
wear. I haven't been so lucky with rear wheels. I seem to hit one too
many bumps, or have a crash in a race and ding the rim so it gets
retired before reaching the 100,000 km mark.

> Report back on how well it works after several months and several
> thousand miles and then all can help you be a judge on its success.

If it survives a few years of training and racing, I'll be happy.

--
JS.

[kolldata]

REALLY JAMES ! a wood dishing/assembly beam and the mistakes would
not and would have been a continuous work of art. right ?

for us street level folk...why 170 Aud on a 32/24 aero ?

[Tom Ace]

On Jan 31, 5:12 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > And do you have a pic of the whole wheel,
> > or a drawing of the spoking pattern?  I'm
> > curious about how much torque (if any) the
> > two sides of the wheel put on the hub shell.
>
> I can post a GIF of the CAD drawing.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/6798702185/in/photostream

Thanks for posting that. It answered the question
I had (there is no unwanted torque on the hub).

Tom Ace

[thirty-six]

Shhh, he's scared of soldering.

[James]

I have no problem soldering, where soldering is required.

(Below for DirtRoadie)

There are people who imagine that the stainless steel spokes of a
bicycle wheel, need support from a wrap of fuse wire and a blob of lead
and tin alloy, for reasons unbeknownst to everyone else. How they think
such weak materials can have any effect on the structure makes one
wonder if they live on a different planet.

--
JS.

[thirty-six]

As I said, he thinks copper wire is appropriate. I use iron/steel
binding wire and make a thorough joint, no blobs. Apparently, the
area of the shear joint is to be six times the x-sectional are of the
steel to effect full strength with a capilliary gap of 0.004" to
0.006" which gives a binding length of approximately 1/4" with typical
bicycle spokes. 24s.w.g. 26s.w.g and 28s.w.g bindings have all been
used with success with both bicycle and motocross wheels. The binding
joint on motocrss wheels is of larger area in line with thicknes of
spoke.

[AMuzi]

>> kolldata<datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> REALLY JAMES ! a wood dishing/assembly beam and the mistakes would
>>> not and would have been a continuous work of art. right ?
>>> for us street level folk...why 170 Aud on a 32/24 aero ?

> thirty-six wrote:
>> Shhh, he's scared of soldering.

James wrote:
> I have no problem soldering, where soldering is required.
>
> (Below for DirtRoadie)
>
> There are people who imagine that the stainless steel spokes of a
> bicycle wheel, need support from a wrap of fuse wire and a blob of lead
> and tin alloy, for reasons unbeknownst to everyone else. How they think
> such weak materials can have any effect on the structure makes one
> wonder if they live on a different planet.
>

http://www.spacestationinfo.com/images/uranus.gif

One might almost see Trevor waving hello.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Ron Ruff]

On Jan 31, 3:03 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess the test will be if it can survive a few years of abuse!  Only
> time will tell.

It will if you built it well.

I've done a few like this and know others who have done many. Dave's
Wheels was the first that I'm aware of. Campy and Fulcrum have used
this sort of pattern for several years now.

It builds a very laterally stiff wheel if you use a special hub with
higher NDS offset. On a normal hub the lateral stiffness is pretty
poor, but I frankly think stiffness is over rated. Can you really tell
if the rim flexed 3mm to the side rather than 2mm? Maintaining NDS
tension is more important and they do a good job of that. The biggest
downside is what happens if one of those NDS spokes snaps...

[Chalo]

Ron Ruff wrote:
>
> I've done a few like this and know others who have done many. Dave's
> Wheels was the first that I'm aware of. Campy and Fulcrum have used
> this sort of pattern for several years now.

Harlan Meyers did hubs like that a long time ago. How long ago
exactly, I can't say-- but he was doing what we'd recognize as exotic
boutique wheels as far back as the early '70s.

http://derbyking.com/Detail/?n=29

Chalo

[kolldata]

>   Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1152&bih=635&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=IodV0e6CtZItRM:&imgrefurl=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/car-life/classic-cars/those-wild-and-wacky-morgan-three-wheelers/article1669439/&docid=N9xrBl2IAwMDUM&imgurl=http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00815/classic-chassis1_815901artw.jpg&w=600&h=367&ei=ZKQqT7PcF-nZiQKqiPyfCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=733&vpy=253&dur=2533&hovh=126&hovw=206&tx=88&ty=152&sig=105198330374115019659&page=2&tbnh=113&tbnw=184&start=8&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:8

[thirty-six]

I'll add;
You will feel the difference in accuracy in tracking while cornering
if you are a successful racer and using sub-300g rims. I can feel the
benefit on heavier rims because I 'throw' the bike into corners really
hard. The binding also helps with even medium weight rims to track
accurately such as when crossing a stream via stepping stones. This
stability in tracking, yet leaving vertical compliance of a softly
built wheel, increases grip in this situation over an untied, tight-as-
it-will-stand wheel. It saves one from falling on one's arse yet
again.

[kolldata]

> again.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

throwing a racing bicycle into a turn scrubs off energy via heat loss
thru tires.
Counter Steer ?
anyway, what's the total gram weight for all this wireing and
soldering ?
how is this adjusted when out back in Ethiopia with vigilantes coming
over the hill ?

[thirty-six]

yep, buttsa downright order of magnitudes less than that required to
accelerate a rider and bike back up to speed ifsnot used.

> Counter Steer ?

Eh? Er, I forget what my preffered term is. gizza minute.
Didnatake thalong, I call it a forced turn.

> anyway, what's the total gram weight for all this wireing and
> soldering ?

Less than spoke No 29

> how is this adjusted when out back in Ethiopia with vigilantes coming
> over the hill ?

None required, eat thy spinach and zip away.

[kolldata]

> None required, eat thy spinach and zip away.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

ahhha ! 36 is a tire shreader
what's your weight and height ?
I'm lost in this area...reading abt broken cranks ect ....
only way Ima gonna bfreak a crank is hitting a brick chisel with a
sledge hammer.
I assume:
1) not solderd spoking exceeds forces between rider and pavement at
the rubber contact patch
2) over any distance tire scrubbing uses way too much physical energy
best left for the final hill
3) when one solder spoke breaks, or the rim is bent needing respoke
twisting,
what does one do with its twin or worser..
4) does a soldered spoke realignment take more time than an unsoldered
spoke realignment for rim bentness ?
5) how often does a pro builder screw up perfect alinegment/solderd
spokes only to find the rim goes out of whack needing.....whew !
like one needs time to go to the john right ?

but frankly, if solder is needed it could be here unless james rides
on a pool table.

[thirty-six]

My tyres are fine.

> what's your weight and height ?
> I'm lost in this area...reading abt broken cranks ect ....
> only way Ima gonna bfreak a crank is hitting a brick chisel with a
> sledge hammer.
> I assume:
> 1) not solderd spoking exceeds forces between rider and pavement at
> the rubber contact patch

> 2) over any distance tire scrubbing uses way too much physical energy
> best left for the final hill

The amuont of scrub is always going to be minimal on a bicycle over
any other vehicle, it is related to low tyre pressures and banked
riding surfaces.

> 3) when one solder spoke breaks, or the rim is bent needing respoke
> twisting,
> what does one do with its twin or worser..

Not that I've known it to happen but the partnered spoke should relax
slightly. With 28 spokes or more there should be no need to adjust
any spokes unless pehaps the rim has received a substantial direct
impact leaving it bent and spoke fiddling may be required to get the
wheel freely turning in the frame.

> 4) does a soldered spoke realignment take more time than an unsoldered
> spoke realignment for rim bentness ?

It's easier and quicker to true a rim but spokes really shouldn't be
used to correct a rim that's been bent in the long term.

> 5) how often does a pro builder screw up perfect alinegment/solderd
> spokes only to find the rim goes out of whack needing.....whew !
> like one needs time to go to the john right ?

i doubt it happens due to the stability created in the spoke assembly.

>
> but frankly, if solder is needed it could be here unless james rides
> on a pool table.

Many people believe in pool table roads.

[ase...@gmail.com]

[datakoll]

eyahahhhahhahhah! that's Rollo !

Trevor's caught in a hedge somewhere....

[ase...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 31, 2012 2:03:42 PM UTC-8, James wrote:

Sorry about the multi clicks, this is my first reply. Congrads on building your first Triplett laced wheel. My recommendation would have been 2 cross on the drive side and 0 cross on the NDS(non drive side) The beauty of this is you have the strength of a 32 spoke wheel on the drive side. You should wind up with the same tension on the NDS. I have been building these with 120 kgs tension on all 24 spokes. With the NDS that tight it should not loosen up like it could on a conventional wheel where you battle to get the NDS to 72%. Assuming you have the wheel good and round to begin with, any minor adjustments would be on the NDS where you only have 8 spokes. You might have a fraction of a turn on a couple of those NDS spokes and that should be it. It should stay true for a big fat rider riding off curbs. With only 24 spokes, might as well stay with 14G. Allan

[julpe...@gmail.com]