Fenders. Or maybe mudguards.

[Frank Krygowski]

An article on fenders [AKA mudguards] from Bicycling, via Yahoo:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/choose-install-bike-fenders-wet-221400152.html

I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
consider mounting fenders. And I'm bemused by some of the ineffective
little flaps of plastic that get sold, and bought, instead of true
fenders. I think the benefits greatly outweigh the detriments.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

If you ride in the rain you definitely improve the experience if you use standard fenders. Those "minimal" fenders do almost nothing. Unless convince you that you are improving your chanced of not getting mud up your back.

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 10:14:25 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Some of the clip-ons are really nice, like the SKS Raceblade Pros. https://content.backcountry.com/images/items/900/SKS/SKSB007/BLA.jpg Easy on and easy off, great adjustability and pretty good protection, and reasonable protection for following riders. I had some of those on the Norco gravel bike, and they were great.

I see no problem with clip-on fenders for bikes that are rarely ridden in the rain or racing bikes that don't have eyelets. Even well mounted fenders on a bike with good clearance will clog and rattle and can be a real problem if you snag blow-down. Fenders are not all upside and older models could be pretty dangerous if they crumpled into your wheel after picking up a stick.

My commuter and fast rain bike have full fenders, and my commuter has my swanky custom mud flap that I riveted on to the fender to reduce rooster tail when riding with the herd of pre-COVID commuters. We call them "frienders" up here, and you will be shamed if you have inadequate coverage -- or relegated to the back.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/krheapvpics/33545457311/in/album-72157632139896627/ Civilized rain riding with long flaps. Showers Pass . . . it's the best. That is mostly a clip-on crowd riding their racing bikes.

I hate metal fenders because they are so noisy. I have a friend who uses metal fenders, and every time we go through a patch of gravel, the noise makes me jump out of my skin.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Roger Merriman]

My road bike is a gravel bike, so i don’t fit them, for tire clearance
reasons generally.

I have some clip on’s for club runs though haven’t used it for quite a
while!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

Well, I suppose that "real men" have a muddy stripe up the back of
their jerseys :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

My full loaded touring bike has a full set of fenders. Plastic and a flap on the front fender. No flap on the back. But I should probably cut up a plastic laundry jug and make a flap for the back fender. Bolt it on. Add some color. Single speed commuting bike has a half fender on the back that bolts to the seatpost. And a piece of plastic that straps around the downtube for the front. I suppose it deflects some of the spray from the front tire. This bike is always ridden alone so keeping the water spray off me is the only priority.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Forgot to say that I never ever ride any of the fast sporty bikes in the rain. So they don't need fenders. Don't ride if its raining or a threat of rain. But the commuter and touring bike may require riding even if its raining. Work did not get canceled if it rained. Still had to commute to work in the rain. And sometimes it rains in the middle of a week long tour and the tour must go on.

[sm12...@gmail.com]

From the article:
"If you often join group rides, a rear fender is a great investment because it will save your bottom from getting soaked and will prevent anyone who gets on your wheel from getting sprayed in the face. "

The second part isn't true. The tire will pick up road water and spray it tangentially to the rear wheel's circumference. There are plenty of straight lines that connect an uncovered portion of the rear wheel tangentially into a follower's face, in a pace line.

The fender does prevent that black streak up the middle of jersey, as Mr. John B. notes. It also prevents road dirt from being deposited onto the front derailleur or water from finding its way down the seat tube.

BTW, rear spray onto a follower in a pace line can be used to keep a constant distance from the wheel in front. The point where the spray hits is an indication of how close you are following. Keeping that spray at a certain point on my lower leg, was the quickest indication I had that I might be losing contact or getting too close. This was especially true for riding brevets at night back in the day when bike lights were not that good.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/9/2021 6:20 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 12:14:25 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> An article on fenders [AKA mudguards] from Bicycling, via Yahoo:
>>
>> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/choose-install-bike-fenders-wet-221400152.html
>>
>> I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
>> consider mounting fenders. And I'm bemused by some of the ineffective
>> little flaps of plastic that get sold, and bought, instead of true
>> fenders. I think the benefits greatly outweigh the detriments.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> My full loaded touring bike has a full set of fenders. Plastic and a flap on the front fender. No flap on the back. But I should probably cut up a plastic laundry jug and make a flap for the back fender.

FWIW, I have a bunch of EPDM rubber sheet left over from a home
remodeling project. I now cut my flaps out of that, instead of plastic
jugs. It's ever so much classier. ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark J.]

On 2/9/2021 4:56 PM, sm12...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 1:14:25 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> An article on fenders [AKA mudguards] from Bicycling, via Yahoo:
>>
>> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/choose-install-bike-fenders-wet-221400152.html
>>
>> I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
>> consider mounting fenders. And I'm bemused by some of the ineffective
>> little flaps of plastic that get sold, and bought, instead of true
>> fenders. I think the benefits greatly outweigh the detriments.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
> From the article:
> "If you often join group rides, a rear fender is a great investment because it will save your bottom from getting soaked and will prevent anyone who gets on your wheel from getting sprayed in the face."
>
> The second part isn't true. The tire will pick up road water and spray it tangentially to the rear wheel's circumference. There are plenty of straight lines that connect an uncovered portion of the rear wheel tangentially into a follower's face, in a pace line.

That's what add-on rear mud flaps, preferably LONG ones, are for.
Tedious that you have to add them yourself to virtually all commercial
fenders, but still a necessity on civilized group rides in the rain.

Mark J.

[Axel Reichert]

"sm12...@gmail.com" <sm12...@gmail.com> writes:

> Keeping that spray at a certain point on my lower leg, was the
> quickest indication I had that I might be losing contact or getting
> too close. This was especially true for riding brevets at night

Sounds like you were doing underbiking, but at least making the most of
it: Bad/no fenders, bad/no light, good paceline. (-;

Axel

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I use the SKS on my commuter. though to be honest, I tend not to ride if it's raining when I would normally be starting out unless it's already in the upper 60's. Yeah, I'm kind of a wimp in cold rain.

[Lou Holtman]

Op dinsdag 9 februari 2021 om 19:14:25 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:

If I get wet anyway, have to shower after a ride, clean my bike and is not too cold I see no reason to mount full fenders on my road bikes. My only concern is that my ass/chamois don't get wet. For that a small clip on ass saver is perfect:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ANDq1YVh8UfyeRDe8

Lou

[jbeattie]

I've used all sorts of things for flaps, but check this out:
tinyurl.com/4hvuba6h

$7 and free shipping to PDX. I bought a pair since I have the Cascadia fenders on one bike that doesn't have flaps yet. Planet Bike is in Madison -- maybe Andrew knows them.

Our "local" fender makers are Portland Design Works: https://ridepdw.com/collections/fenders They have some nice fenders, too, and add-on mudflaps (leather and rubber) and a mind-bending selection of mounting hardware. The PB are cheaper, but the good thing about the PDW plastic fenders is that you start with a more generous flap, and you don't have fender stay-ends poking out and getting hung up on stuff. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1441/3806/products/335_Poncho_Road.jpg?v=1553723764

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/10/2021 9:52 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 5:02:31 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> FWIW, I have a bunch of EPDM rubber sheet left over from a home
>> remodeling project. I now cut my flaps out of that, instead of plastic
>> jugs. It's ever so much classier. ;-)
>
> I've used all sorts of things for flaps, but check this out:
> tinyurl.com/4hvuba6h

I've got Planet Bike fenders on several bikes. On most, their flaps have
been good enough for me. But the three bikes most likely ridden in the
rain now have longer front flaps, of EPDM.

I had to cut the rear Planet Bike fender flap off our tandem. That's
because I store it vertically in our basement, hanging from its front
wheel. I sort of roll the front wheel up the wall to get it hooked in
place; but the rear fender flap would drag or snag on the floor,
complicating that move.

But even if our club rides did go in the wet, it wouldn't matter much of
the time. It's a tandem, so on downhills everyone is far behind us. On
uphills, everyone is far in front of us. :-/

> Our "local" fender makers are Portland Design Works: https://ridepdw.com/collections/fenders They have some nice fenders, too, and add-on mudflaps (leather and rubber) and a mind-bending selection of mounting hardware. The PB are cheaper, but the good thing about the PDW plastic fenders is that you start with a more generous flap, and you don't have fender stay-ends poking out and getting hung up on stuff. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1441/3806/products/335_Poncho_Road.jpg?v=1553723764

I like the idea of the stays wrapping the outside of the fender, and I
like the look of their dropout hardware. I assume it's intended both to
adjust stay length and to release if snagged?

We have PB's competing design on our Fridays - a plastic friction collet
that grabs the plain end of the fender stay, and is held to the plastic
fender by a tiny pointed screw. It was touted as both an adjustment and
a safety measure, but it has several problems: The tiny screw has come
loose, the collet's collar requires a LOT of torque to prevent slipping,
that collar is too big in diameter and often touches the tire,
generating a squeak.

That latter problem is also because the only connection between the
right and left stay is the flexible plastic fender, so there's lots of
lateral movement. I think most plastic fenders have a metal connector
between the stays, riveted in place. But I like best the look of a
U-shaped stay, and intend to modify ours that way.

Speaking of safety: Again, the collets and other design tricks are used
to allow fender stays to pop loose if (say) a stick is snagged, to
prevent locking the bike's wheel and perhaps throwing a person over the
bars. I've snagged sticks only with my mountain bike and only in a minor
way. How common is that type of crash? Anyone encounter it?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

We stock those flaps. Sell one (half a pair) once every
couple of years. As others here have noted, mudguard flaps
make sense while the population of riders is mostly
senseless. Personally, I have full length steel mudguards on
two commuter bikes (summer/winter) which do not rattle.

Planet Bike, like Trek and Schwinn, in sorta "in my area"
but actually china.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

I can't recall a case of rider injury from crud under
mudguard but it seems possible, horrible, and easy to design
around. The German standard requires such on the front so
mudguard sets sold there have to include a safety release.

Speaking of mudguard design, I prefer solid-strut welded
steel mudguards which AFAIK are no longer made anywhere.
They do not rattle. Adjustment, for those of you with
similar, is by changing the stay curvature slightly up near
the stay/mudguard interface.

[Radey Shouman]

I have been using pieces of a ribbed black rubber carpet runner. Looks
ok, stays flexible.

[Mark J.]

On 2/10/2021 8:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]> I like the idea of the stays wrapping the outside of the fender[...]

I think that's a better design, yes, though it might make adjustability
harder.

On really rainy brevets with stays that mount underneath the fender,
I've had flows of water that were going down the inside of the front
fender get diverted by the under-fender bracket/mount, so that part of
the flow gets sprayed outward, at just the right height to soak my feet.
Even good booties can soak through eventually.

Mark J.

[jbeattie]

I've dragged one or two front fenders into my wheel picking up blow-down. Because of my superior bike-handling skills and Ninja-like reflexes, I suffered no grievous bodily injury. More often than not, the inconvenience is loose hardware or having to readjust them to fit bigger rubber, etc. Riding through the Ozarks, my fenders packed up with tar and crushed rock riding on hot macadam roads -- or whatever that proto-asphalt is called. What a mess. I tossed the fenders.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

A nice name for it would be 'inexcusable':
https://wsdot.wa.gov/construction-planning/preservation/chip-seal

Yeah, tossing the mudguards was probably the best solution.
Yecchh.

[Frank Krygowski]

Touring with fully loaded touring (not mountain) bikes on the rainy C&O
Towpath Trail, we encountered endless mud just the right consistency to
stick to our tires and the inside of the fenders. As the stuff packed in
there it gradually reduced the fender-to-mud-to-tire clearance to zero.

There was no drama (except for the cussing), but we'd pedal for maybe
half a mile, then scrape out the mud, then pedal for another half mile...

I eventually took a spare spoke and bent a C shape into each end. One
end in the plane of the spoke, one perpendicular, a custom mud-scraping
tool. It helped - a little.

The things we do for fun!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

OK. I found EPDM rubber at Home Depot. They sell it by the foot. 4 inch wide would be the right width. But which thickness? They have 1/32", 1/16", 3/32", 3/16", 1/4" thickness. Odd they are missing 1/8" thickness. What thickness do you think is right? I don't know if they have this rubber in stock or you have to order it delivered to your store.

[jbeattie]

You know, I didn't even think of that stuff as chip seal, but it must have been -- and I guess freshly applied. It was like riding on fly-paper over really steep little rollers with no net elevation gain. Eastern Missery.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Mine measures about 1/16".

Warning, this is heavier than the milk jug version! I get 42 grams for a
large front mudflap.

That includes a nylon machine screw and a wing nut, for easy removal.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

I rode through an area of mud that turned out to be a clay mud. It didn't look too bad and that's why I started riding through it. It was very hard slogging and withing 10 or so yards/meters, the fenders were so caked with the stuff that the wheels no long would turn. BEWARE of clay based muds.

Cheers

[News 2021]

On Tue, 09 Feb 2021 20:02:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski scribed:

After trying metal and then plastic fenders, the best set I've had were
strips of perspex cut to with and shaped to fit. The real advantage was
on muddy tracks. certain muds/clays in Australia will aggregate and build
up as the wheels rotate. Scraper bits/devices work like heavy braking, so
the only alternative to walking, is to be able to scrap the mud out every
so often. Shrug, you even have to do it while walking.

I have a slide from one tour where everyone is carrying their fenders
across their rear racks.

[Duane]

I don’t ever remember wishing that I had fenders on my bike. If I was wet,
I was wet. But I can remember wishing the rider in front of me had them.

[Tom Kunich]

If you're on a group tour you'd find them appreciative of your having a rear fender flap as well

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm sure that's the stuff we were dealing with.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

That might work for a guy using his bike only for sport, or for a
commuter riding in sport clothing and changing at the office.

It's not workable for a person riding in normal clothing and hoping to
look reasonably presentable at his destination.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

IMO, its all about minimizing misery. I raced in the rain a million times without fenders and was content being wet and miserable, or I was nearing unconsciousness and didn't really care. Hypothermia can happen even when you're working hard. Anyway, sitting in jets of wheel spray, getting drenched, pissing in your shorts, having snot and mud on your face -- its all part of the hard-man mythos of racing. You want that snapshot at the end of the race with the reverse raccoon eyes and super-muddy shaved legs --- as you shiver uncontrollably, trying to get your hands unclenched from the bars, dreaming of the car heater.

Commuting or going on a sport ride alone or with friends, well screw being miserable. I'm using fenders and keeping my crotch and feet as dry as possible for as long as possible. I'm also going to be a good neighbor to my riding companions. Although they can chose not to be on my wheel, there are times when you're forced into close quarters, and its nice to not get a face-full of water and road grit. Now, at mile 30 in driving rain, you're going to be soaked everywhere anyway, but at lest you were not miserable for a while. And if its just wet roads or beach mist or drizzle, you can be comfortable for the whole ride and return home with a mostly dry crotch. And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

-- Jay Beattie.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

> IMO, its all about minimizing misery. I raced in the rain a million times without fenders and was
> content being wet and miserable, or I was nearing unconsciousness and didn't really care.
> Hypothermia can happen even when you're working hard. Anyway, sitting in jets of wheel spray,
> getting drenched, pissing in your shorts, having snot and mud on your face -- its all part of the
> hard-man mythos of racing.

MY worst ever experience racing was the Sunapee Road Race in sunapee, New Hampshire (3 laps on a 19 mile circuit). The race was always held in april, and this particular year it was raining and 38 degrees. The race starts at the Sunapee Ski area base lodge, and goes downhill for 5 miles. By the time we got halfway down the hill, half the guys were shivering so bad it looked like they were in low-speed speed wobbles. I had put on every stitch of cycling clothing I could find in my car, and still my hands, knees and feet were numb, and I actually had what felt like an ice cream headache. The rain abated by the end of the race, but the damage was done early on. Half the peloton bailed at the end of the first lap. I managed to stay with the field and toughed it out.

> You want that snapshot at the end of the race with the reverse
> raccoon eyes and super-muddy shaved legs --- as you shiver uncontrollably, trying to get
> your hands unclenched from the bars, dreaming of the car heater.

Check out the last lap of the Namur cx worldcup 2020...https://tiz-cycling.io/videos/cyclo-cross-world-cup-2020-6-namur-full-race/

>

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

> ... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Op donderdag 11 februari 2021 om 23:17:10 UTC+1 schreef frkr...@gmail.com:

We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you questioned other peoples choice again. Why?

Lou

[Sir Ridesalot]

In Toronto, Canada (when I lived there) there were city works water trucks that rinsed the roads. That water was FRIGID! I put fenders on my bike and I never regretted it. Even riding through shallow standing water could be quite unpleasant without fenders.Mud/spray flaps on t he bottom of the fenders helps a lot. Another interesting thing to do is to mount a rear fender on the front fork. That stops the spray that you sometimes get from the top front of a regular front fender. The only problem is that you have to buy two sets of fenders. Or you might get lucky and get two rear fenders the same at a bicycle co-op.

A lot of bicyclists like to use a bicycling rain cape in conjunction with full fenders. That can make for very pleasant riding in milder weather.

Cheers

[Axel Reichert]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:

> I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect
> the rear fender acts as a fairing

More on this here:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-3-fenders-slow-you-down/

There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
"Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
dirt.

Best regards

Axel

[Tom Kunich]

It could possibly be nothing at all since the contra-rotating upper half of the wheels is going twice the speed as the bike and is scooping air forward. We used to count on this to plug the area around the front brake causing an air dam. A fender might even be more aero if designed properly, though probably not with the fender spokes hanging out into the airstream.

[Frank Krygowski]

Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?

Perhaps it's a language problem, but you seem to repeatedly mistake
attempts at (approximate) quantification for disagreement. That seems
very strange for an engineer.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
> There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
> comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
> survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
> weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
> "Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
> pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
> dirt.
>
> Best regards
>
> Axel

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris. On the way back, about 2 days after the start, it poured and poured and rained and rained for about 8 straight hours. And it was cold. Temps in the 50s Fahrenheit. It rained on me from about 10 PM to 3 AM on the way back. Buckets of rain at night and cold cold cold. So it did cause physical problems with the riders and bikes. BUT, PBP is not an official race. You just have to complete the ride in 80 or 84 or 90 total hours. And get to the various checkpoints before the cutoff time. But its not a race. You just have to ride at 10 mph constantly for the whole 90 hours and you make it. So you can stop and rest or shelter from the rain and cold. And there are towns and places to stop along the route. Every 50 miles or so. For me I rode 5 hours and 50 miles in the worst rain and cold possible before getting to a checkpoint with a shower and food and bed. I stopped there and cleaned up and rested for a few hours before continuing the next morning. Which was a warm pleasant day. It was only that 8 hour stretch of horrible rain and cold. And you could have avoided some of it without too much trouble.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant. The water was so strong it was falling out of the sky just as hard as it was splashing up from the road. Everything was soaked and cold.

[Lou Holtman]

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 00:51:28 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:

> On 2/11/2021 5:38 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Op donderdag 11 februari 2021 om 23:17:10 UTC+1 schreef frkr...@gmail.com:
> >> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> ... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.
> >>
> >> As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
> >> tiny.
> >>
> >> I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
> >> Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.
> >>
> >> I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
> >> fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
> >> front fender isn't overly wide.
> >>
> >> The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
> >> stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
> >> without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
> >> stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
> >> there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
> >> spraying you with a water hose.
> >>
> >> But for me, it's worth it.
> >
> > We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you questioned other peoples choice again. Why?
> Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?

In your initial post you stated:
'I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
consider mounting fenders.'
English is not my first language but if someone is stunned/bemused in my world they don't understand the choice of those people or in other words question their choice.

Lou

[News 2021]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 23:24:19 -0800, Lou Holtman scribed:

> Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 00:51:28 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:

>> >> But for me, it's worth it.
>> >
>> > We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you
>> > questioned other peoples choice again. Why?
>> Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?
>
>
> In your initial post you stated:
> 'I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
> consider mounting fenders.'
> English is not my first language but if someone is stunned/bemused in my
> world they don't understand the choice of those people or in other words
> question their choice.

True about undrstanding and questioning their choice is invitation for
education.
OTOH, if the comment offends you, then you're playing chippies on the
shoulder; some one will always knock it off.

We do not have the extreme cold weather in Australia, so I'm bemused when
people need to rug up in layers and layer to ride as I can get by with
wool on head, hands and feet so long as I'm moving. Then there is a layer
whilst moving and a thicker layer whilst stopped.

Back to raid, years ago i worked out wool socks and sandels was the best
for dealing with rain.

Fenders are a blah thing for me. Until I hit on custom flats for the mud,
the concentrated collected drivel off the bottom was an annoyance.

When riding in a group, we tend to ride in pairs and separated or a lone.

Of course, I've always been happy to be tail-end charle so people don't
fel left behind.

[Axel Reichert]

"russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
>> If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
>> Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders
>

> That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

> So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
> no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
> were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/print/issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

[AMuzi]

That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.

[jbeattie]

I think you're right. Fenders are a real benefit riding in drizzle and standing water, but you get soaked in a rain storm whether you have fenders or not. Fenders and full rain gear will keep you comfortable longer, but its just a matter of time until you're soaked if it is really raining hard. This is what I use for really rainy days: https://tinyurl.com/4k5gfoo8 I have cleat cut-outs. I also keep a flare in a pannier, next to my AED.

It rained yesterday, turned to freezing rain and then snow. It is currently blowing snow pretty hard with a few inches on the street, so I'm not riding today - except maybe my rollers. Fresh snow has good traction, but I don't feel like putting on my fat tires. . . and adjusting my fenders . . . and riding in a freezing, blowing snow storm. I got no one to impress. I might put on my shoe cleats and go for a walk. I'm sure the other work-from-home COVID zombies will be out.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I do wonder about a lot of Jan Heine's tales. Every ride seems to be
epic. Every bike seems to be wonderful, at least in most ways. Every
tire he sells is "supple." Every bit of equipment is admirably light,
but when it isn't, weight doesn't matter.

I think he's produced some good ideas and good data, but it's also clear
he's selling both magazines and equipment. I'd prefer some corroboration
from other sources.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

'Global Warming' may not be warm but it sure is global:

https://www.rfi.fr/en/snowboarders-enjoy-heavy-snowfall-in-ukraine-s-capital

https://www.rfi.fr/en/snow-apocalypse-batters-moscow

Texas:
https://www.wsav.com/news/3-dead-30-taken-to-hospital-after-70-vehicle-pileup-in-fort-worth/

Even the annual Kites on Ice is canceled for cold weather(!)

https://www.nbc15.com/2021/02/05/wisconsin-union-winter-carnival-postpones-some-events-amid-cold-temperatures/

[Frank Krygowski]

If I wanted to say "stunned" I'd have said "stunned." But I didn't.

If "bemused" conveys disapproval, as you seem to imply, it must be the
lowest possible level of disapproval. Hell, you've been a lot harsher
toward me when deriding my choice to ride with a handlebar bag.

I have never told anyone they must use fenders. I have never asked any
of my riding buddies "Why don't you use fenders?" Yes, I am a bit
surprised that so few American cyclists find them worthwhile. But am I
not allowed to hold that opinion?

What's far more surprising to me is that you are so easily offended at
such a vague wondering on my part - just as you get offended at any hint
of a riding style different from yours. It smacks of a weird insecurity
on your part. And it seems out of place in a discussion group.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 18:46:19 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:

Last week it was exceptional cold here. Half the country is ice skating which is a national thing. I don't have that gen. Todays ride:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/irXMorb3vPkjoaaZ7
I didn't need bloody fenders, I needed studded tires and an internal gear hub.
Still was ice in my water bottle after 15 minutes at home:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/b5Mjiqqheb6ZFQcg6

Lou

[slto...@gmail.com]

Yesterday it was supposed to start raining early and it didn't. Then it was supposed to start raining at noon, and it didn't. Then about 4 pm I drove up to the supermarket and suddenly the sky opened up and it rained so hard that there was about 2" of water running through the parking lot. It only lasted like that for perhaps 5 minutes and then almost stopped. I got home and it did that again. In the morning I had cut the lawn and spread Weed and Feed. So hopefully that will polish off the weedy grasses in the lawn.

[slto...@gmail.com]

Frank, Lou isn't a native English speaker. Arguing about his misunderstanding of your comments don't help the matter do they?

[slto...@gmail.com]

WHAT! No fenders?

[AMuzi]

> Last week it was exceptional cold here. Half the country is ice skating which is a national thing. I don't have that gen. Todays ride:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/irXMorb3vPkjoaaZ7
> I didn't need bloody fenders, I needed studded tires and an internal gear hub.
> Still was ice in my water bottle after 15 minutes at home:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/b5Mjiqqheb6ZFQcg6
>
> Lou
>

There's always humor:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202101/07/WS5ff68310a31024ad0baa11a6.html

Winnie the Pooh banned coal imports from Australia... Just
in time! Coal prices in China were Y450/tonne in January,
now Y850. Time to export some nice Nederlands ice skates!

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

That's possible. In the randonneur world, fenders and handlebar bags are the mark of the elite, hardcore brevet rider. And a beard and a fixed gear bike and sandals and WOOL (shorts, jersey, socks, beanie) and a cycling cap and cantilever brakes. So maybe those dedicated ones were also the ones most likely to have fenders and also be the best trained and conditioned and ready for anything. Whereas those of us who rode modern bikes of carbon or titanium(me) and fancy dandy click shifting shifters and lycra and NO fenders were not as well prepared to begin with. And gave up in the 50s cold weather and pouring rain. Very possible. Fenders didn't make any difference in whether you finished or not. Fenders were merely a correlation.

PBP 2007 was bad bad bad for parts of it. About 8 hours, 10PM to 6AM, on Wednesday night it got cold. Mid 50s F. And poured buckets of rain out of the sky. But PBP is not officially a race. Even though they keep track of time. You can stop and rest whenever and wherever you choose. On the route the control towns with beds, showers, food, shelter, are about every 60 miles apart. There really are no small towns to stop in between the big control towns. Its very rural France. I happened to get it the worst. Started pouring and got super cold shortly after leaving one control town and was just miserable for the next 5 hours until I got to the next control town. Where I stopped and showered and ate and slept until morning. Then the weather was sunny and 70s for the next 150 miles. Just like it was the prior day before the 8 hour pouring rain and super cold night.

The 8 hour cold rain were enough to make you stop if you wanted to stop anyway. But you could find shelter from it if you tried. Maybe not good shelter if you were cowering under a roof overhang and still cold and wet. And it was just 8 hours out of a total of 80-90 hours of the event. 10% of the total time. I'm sure many, most of us have it bad for 10% of our life. Yet suicides count are not the main headline in the news everyday. Do half the bicyclists throw their bike away if they have a flat or wreck?

[Lou Holtman]

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 20:39:52 UTC+1 schreef slto...@gmail.com:

I have only one bike where permanently mounted full fenders make sense for the reason Frank mentioned and that is my utility bike. On all other bikes permanently mounted fenders are useless and/or a nuisance.

Lou

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 1:47:22 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> There's always humor:
>
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202101/07/WS5ff68310a31024ad0baa11a6.html
>
> Winnie the Pooh banned coal imports from Australia... Just
> in time! Coal prices in China were Y450/tonne in January,
> now Y850. Time to export some nice Nederlands ice skates!
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

1 Yuan equals 15 US cents. Roughly. So 450 Yuan is $67.50. 850 Yuan is $127.50. About double the price for one ton of coal. Google search said in 2019 in the USA, price of one ton of coal delivered to the power plant was $38.53. National average. Delivered price is cost at mine, $30.93, plus railroad transport of about $7.60. I do not know if there is any retail sellers of coal left in the USA. I'm not sure anyone uses coal burning furnaces in their houses anymore and has a pickup load of coal delivered to their house. Guessing China does use coal in individual houses for furnace heat and has a retail delivery system.

[Ralph Barone]

Would you prefer your corroboration from other people who are selling
magazines or equipment, or do you prefer to get your data from the cadre of
independently wealthy cyclist PhDs who have taken a vow of impartiality?
Everybody’s biased.

[AMuzi]

I have a great deal of respect to you and other PBP riders.

I seem to recall that at one time lights and mudguards were
required?

[Mark J.]

I'm not so sure that you get soaked with or without fenders, at least
for less-than-epic rides. Yeah, there's the sweat, but a good vented
jacket helps cut that down.

Rain generally comes down from above, and road spray comes up from
below. Most primary rain gear (jackets, and capes for us old guys) does
great for the first and not so good for the second.

Most decent cycling jackets have a duck's-ass tail to keep your butt dry
- at least from what's coming down from above. And with drop bars,
torso angle is gonna help keep your crotch dry - again from rainfall.

But a good spray up from below, and your butt/crotch can get soaked with
ice-cold water. Avoiding just one good splash like that make the
fenders worth it for me.

When I last rode anything long in the rain (maybe 2017, or 2014 which
had epic wet Brevets in Oregon) I used "Rainlegs" sort of chaps-like
not-pants to go down to the knees, which, along with fenders, did a nice
job of keeping the legs/crotch dry without turning the ride into a
day-long sauna.

https://www.rainlegs.com

Yeah, that's sort of a recommendation.

Mark J.

[jbeattie]

I have a nice lightweight Showers Pass jacket that will soak through after a couple hours of rain and one of their heavier jackets that I use for commuting that I've never ridden to soak-through, IIRC, but I use that for short rides. I should probably start using that jacket more. I'll get leaking down the neck on both of those.

I've never had any breathable jacket that held up all day in the rain, but maybe one is out there somewhere -- and under a $ billion. I use Amfib tights, which are pretty good and keep my crotch, usually. I have lots of pairs of booties, and all of them leak through after a while. On most rides, I do keep my crotch and butt pretty dry, but all bets are off if it is really raining, and I'm descending or its windy.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/12/2021 3:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I have a great deal of respect to you and other PBP riders.

+1

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/12/2021 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> I have only one bike where permanently mounted full fenders make sense for the reason Frank mentioned and that is my utility bike. On all other bikes permanently mounted fenders are useless and/or a nuisance.

Here's an honest question (and I'll carefully say I'm not trying to
disagree with you in any way):

What, specifically, makes fenders a nuisance for you?

I do have some aspects of fenders that I don't like. But I'm curious
about others' views.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 23:32:07 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:

Breathable rain jackets are the biggest scam in cycling clothes when riding at 150 W and up even the ridiculous expensive ones.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't believe everybody is biased - or at least, not on every topic.
If we pretend there's nobody who will give honest data and honest
evaluations of data, we have to throw out the concept of "science."

I think Jan Heine has done good work regarding rolling resistance of
tires. I appreciated his wind tunnel data from long ago. But as one
example, I'm pretty skeptical of his concept of "planing" regarding
bikes - i.e. that there's an undefined property in certain frames that
makes them significantly faster than somewhat similar frames of
identical weight with identical components. His justification for that
seems entirely anecdotal.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On my bike with no mudguards, there's no not-duct-tape way
to mount them, there isn't room under the brake bridge or
crown (or calipers) and when it's wet on a Sunday morning
I'll do something else, such as ride my mudguard-equipped
bike to a coffee shop and read the paper.

BTW it's an absolute joy on a sunny day and very different
from my less-zippy bikes. Like having two very different
girlfriends- one should not want to compare them so much as
appreciate each for her own charms.

Would you screw a roof rack to a Pagani?

[John B.]

http://en.sxcoal.com

The Chinese report seems to show that "coal " varies in price, over
some 19 grades and types, depending on quality and use with the
highest currently charted price being 2050 RMB/ton and the lowest
being 352 RMB/ton as of 2021-02-05. Or, in U.S. dollars from
$307/ton to as low as $52.80 and only two of the lower priced coals
are listed as "import" and cost about $48/ton.

The largest change in coal price is for something called "Liulin
Low-sulphur" from about 1400 RMP on 2020/6/09 to about 2600 RMB on
2020/12/18.

The only two coals I see with a current cost in the 800 -900RBM/ton
range are "Guangzhou 5500", currently at 930/ton having decreased from
a high of about 1,000/ton and "Jincheng Anthracite Mid-lump" which is
currently at 960/ton which seems to have been at about 950/ton on
October, dropped in price and then risen to the current price.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Mark J.]

Yeah, all day, I can see that might put a strain on a jacket.
I think the longest I've been in the rain is 100km (during a 300km
brevet). A ride that ends dry is usually OK by me if I have managed
well enough to avoid hypothermia.

I got a pair of Amfib tights recently, and I like 'em fine below about
45F, but above that, I'll soak through from the inside. Haven't tried
'em in the rain yet.

Booties are a puzzle. The only ones I've had that fit snug enough at
the top to keep rain from eventually seeping down also wore the skin on
my ankles raw. (I do know to tuck the socks down and *not* tuck the
tights into the booties.)

I have to admit I've gotten lazy in winter since I got a nice smart
trainer. My last must-ride winter events were a series of Brevets in
OR/WA (some were really "Permanents") in 12 consecutive months '15-'16
that, believe it or not, I managed to do without any rain, though there
was a hard mist on the December ride.

Mark J.

[AMuzi]

'I only know what I read in the papers'.
Mine has a paywall on their internet version.

Here's a similar article not including price chart:

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/beijing-rebuffed-pleas-from-chinese-steelmakers-to-lift-ban-on-australian-coal-20210114-p56u0c.html

Not only coal price, but also from Sydney Morning Herald:

"It's pushing up the cost of supply of coal, it's increasing
the cost to coke, but it's also affecting the quality of
material they are producing because there's not that much
low-sulphur premium coal around, so they're having to use
higher sulphur-content coal which has an impact on blast
furnace productivity and strength of steel you produce."

[Ralph Barone]

Perhaps not consciously biased (as in “I need to sell more widgets - time
to write a glowing article”), but every person interprets the same raw data
a bit differently. Perhaps the best example of experimenter bias comes
when an experiment fails to give the expected result, but the actual
mechanism isn’t immediately discovered because it was initially thought to
be totally implausible.

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> A lot of bicyclists like to use a bicycling rain cape in conjunction with full fenders. That can make for very pleasant riding in milder weather.

I thought a hooded rain cape was a wonderful idea, and started
carrying one when the weather was iffy. One day it started to rain
just as I was leaving a parking lot, so I stopped, put on the cape,
re-mounted, looked back to see whether it was safe to resume riding,
dismounted, and took off the cape.

It hung on a hook in the back entry until it fell apart.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[John B.]

rOn Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:59:13 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

Yes, but I also read that China is increasing their coal imports from
Indonesia to make up for the door closing on Australian coal and in
fact the Indonesians recently announced that they had signed a deal
with China to sell them something like 200 million tons next year.

As for the higher cost of coal in China I wonder whether it being the
coldest winter in 50 years of Chinese history has anything to do with
it?

Sulphur in steel is a funny thing. Generally, I believe, one wants to
hold levels of 0.04% or lower but at the same time "free maching
steel" has a sulphur content of up to 0.4% and they even have stuff
called "resulfurized steel". The most apparent result of high sulphur
content is that the high sulphur steels do not weld as well and may be
more brittle although I can't find any data on sulphur content and
brittleness, only a general statement.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 23:24:19 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> English is not my first language but if someone is
> stunned/bemused in my world they don't understand
> the choice of those people or in other words question their choice.

A person who is "bemused" doesn't know what to think. It's a far
weaker word than "stunned", or even "puzzled".

A bemused person has encountered something for which previous
experience has not prepared him, or a datum that doesn't fit with the
other data. He may seek out more data, try to understand, or just say
"there's nowt so queer as folk".

--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii

joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

The above message is a Usenet post.

[News 2021]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 22:47:07 -0500, Joy Beeson scribed:

> On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> A lot of bicyclists like to use a bicycling rain cape in conjunction
>> with full fenders. That can make for very pleasant riding in milder
>> weather.
>
> I thought a hooded rain cape was a wonderful idea, and started carrying
> one when the weather was iffy. One day it started to rain just as I was
> leaving a parking lot, so I stopped, put on the cape, re-mounted, looked
> back to see whether it was safe to resume riding,
> dismounted, and took off the cape.

What made you change your mind?

I've never liked any of the commercial capes, so I made a cape of that
was basically a big tabard with small neck hole. I tied the back across
my waist and sat on the tail. The front had loops for thumbs or would go
over the gear levers. Generally good except or spray from the wheels
flung upwards or heavy winds(too much sail). Being open, there was good
ventilation rather than the sweat boxes plastic raincoats/capes are

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Unfortunately I have forgotten many of the rules and requirements for PBP. Its been 13 years since I did it. And more or less stopped randonneuring after it. I'm happy and proud I did it. But I would not advise anyone else to do it. Riding such long distances just isn't enjoyable. Most of the time its not miserable. Like some of 2007 PBP was. But the joy and fun aspect of bicycle riding goes away after so many miles. Much better to ride a distance where you are happy the entire ride. Then eat, sleep, and do it again the next day if you want.

Lights are required. And I think they have to be mounted on the bike lights. Not a helmet light as your only light. You can add a helmet light to compliment the bike mounted light. But not helmet only light. I think there is some kind of official brightness too. But weak pitiful halogen lights are fine and legal so the minimum is pretty small. Currently fenders are not required. But I think you are right that in years past they were a requirement. A reflective vest meeting some official certification is required. They do check for that. You do have to get your bike and you officially checked before the ride start.

[Lou Holtman]

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 23:52:06 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:

My biggest practical nuisance is that I can’t put that bike on my work stand and cleaning the bike is harder. It makes no sense to me to put permanently full fenders on a bike that is ridden 95% of the time when it is not raining and in a way that I have to shower and wash my clothes afterwards.
When it happens that I am caught in the rain on such a ride I have to clean that bike anyway, with or without fenders because they all are equipped with derailleur systems and an open chain. If I had to ride in the rain as often as Jay my rain bike(s) would look different.

Lou

[Axel Reichert]

"russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:

[PBP]

> Much better to ride a distance where you are happy the entire ride.
> Then eat, sleep, and do it again the next day if you want.

My great respect for your achievement and these words of wisdom.

My guess is that many would glorify their miserable experience in order
to avoid looking like a fool. Not that I ever fooled myself this way.
(-;

Thanks!

Axel

[Axel Reichert]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> I'm pretty skeptical of his concept of "planing" regarding bikes -
> i.e. that there's an undefined property in certain frames that makes
> them significantly faster than somewhat similar frames of identical
> weight with identical components. His justification for that seems
> entirely anecdotal.

Yes. When I (trained as a Finite Element Analyst) first read about this,
my bullshit detector was heavily triggered. While it is clear (contrary
to folk wisdom) that the energy put into a flexible frame does not
vanish (damping in metal frames is extremely low), I strongly doubt that
a frame stiffness "tuned" to the cadence of the rider will make a bike
"perform better". Here is why I think so:

First, the cadence is not fixed but varies (we are talking about
climbing here) between, say, 40/min and 80/min, depending on slope,
(whimsical) gear choice, mood of the day, etc.

Second, the stiffness (or first relevant eigenfrequency) even of "soft"
frames is so high that upon unloading they return to the undeformed
configuration almost immediately, definitely NOT within a time scale of
a second (which would match a cadence of 60/min). The pedalling is slow
in comparison to the fast spring-back, so there is no point in "matching"
here.

While in fact it was shown both with FEA and experiments that a deformed
frame will return the stored energy by helping turn the crank during
unloading, this result kind of trivially follows from first
principles. Unfortunately, the dynamics of the process was ignored, and
this is the crucial point if you want to achieve some "matching" between
riding style and frame stiffness.

So in my opinion the effect in theory is there, but a frame that would
properly be tuned to the (typical) cadence of the rider (Jan likes to
employ a trampoline analogy, which I am sceptical of, because here the
time scales match better) would be so soft that even the most
retro-grouchy steel advocates would not dare to speed downhill on such a
wobbly piece of metal.

Best regards

Axel

[AMuzi]

We're drifting to other areas here but, yes, there are a
wide range of steels. Yes, there are several fuels crises in
China in this record cold season.

https://news.maritime-network.com/2021/02/10/eia-us-natural-gas-prices-boosted-by-exports-of-lng-and-propane/

[Frank Krygowski]

My only practical nuisance with fenders occurs when I take the front
wheel off the bike and load the bike into our hatchback, laying the bike
on its side. The front fender is slightly fragile and takes up more room
than a fenderless fork.

For a brief time, I complained that the bottom end of the front fender
prevented the bike from standing on its fork ends, and it interfered
with my fork-clamp roof rack. So I cut an inch or two off the fender and
use a longer mud flap to solve that problem.

I have had two bikes that had insufficient clearance for normal fenders
at the rear brake and its seatstay bridge. For each, I cut the fender at
the bridge and fabricated an aluminum mount to support the fender just
behind and just in front of the bridge. Those work well.

Our tandem's front fender cantilevers pretty far in front of the fork
crown and seems unusually flexible. For a while, it would occasionally
flex in a way that touched the tire and made a slight scraping noise. I
fabricated a little brace to connect it to the headlight mount at that
location. That stopped that problem.

And I've had plastic fenders that cracked after only a few decades of
use. But nothing lasts forever, I guess.

I think that's the total of all fender problems I've had.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Well said. I agree.

Jan, like everyone else, has his preferences. And that's fine. But when
a person moves into technical justifications for those preference, the
technical aspects become open to analysis, discussion and debate.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't like riding in rain. But if the rain is anything more than a
gentle mist, I like a rain cape better than the other options I've tried.

I use the brake lever loops and sit on the rear portion so the cape is
fairly tight around me. I sometimes wish the sides were somehow more
rigid to reduce flapping. And I'd like to avoid the puddle that collects
between my arms.

Hmm. Maybe a drain tube?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 04:12:40 -0000 (UTC), News 2021
<new...@woa.com.au> wrote:

> What made you change your mind?

Looking back and seeing the inside of the hood.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/13/2021 10:23 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 04:12:40 -0000 (UTC), News 2021
> <new...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>
>> What made you change your mind?
>
> Looking back and seeing the inside of the hood.

I agree. The hood never worked for me. I have two rain capes. One's hood
snaps off, and has always been off. The other's is permanent, and gets
tucked down inside when I wear the cape.

I can envision a sort of waterproof hat with a brim and a sort of long
rear tail that might help. But I don't ride in rain enough to worry
about finding or making one.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 13.02.2021 um 04:47 schrieb Joy Beeson:
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> A lot of bicyclists like to use a bicycling rain cape in conjunction with full fenders. That can make for very pleasant riding in milder weather.
>
> I thought a hooded rain cape was a wonderful idea, and started
> carrying one when the weather was iffy. One day it started to rain
> just as I was leaving a parking lot, so I stopped, put on the cape,
> re-mounted, looked back to see whether it was safe to resume riding,
> dismounted, and took off the cape.

So your problem was that the cape's hood was too large. On
bicycle-specific capes, there are two possible solutions to this:

a) a hood that can be tied such that it fits the head exactly
b) a hood with see-through sides

Genrally, a cape designed for walking is not really suitable for cycling.

[Sir Ridesalot]

A Sou'wester hat?

Cheers

[Andre Jute]

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 11:55:21 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:

>
> Would you screw a roof rack to a Pagani?

No, the roof isn't long enough. But there's that rear deck over the engine and the ridiculous boot space which just cries out for an English chromed luggage rack such as you used to see on small English sports cars. --- AJ

[Andre Jute]

I have a Dutch cape, sold as suitable for bicycling. The big loose hood is supposed to be worn over a helmet, I think. There are loops for your hands over the handlebar grips, and the back is shaped to fall down the back of the seat, so that you're riding along in a sort of tent. I suppose that with practice you could get used to it, but I found I'd rather get wet, especially as I'm rarely more than an hour from home and a hot shower.

My decision to leave the thing hanging on the bicycling coat rack was further informed by the fact that the tent-like structure doesn't stop splashed water rising up to wet your feet and calves. There's no damping from the wheels because my SKS P60 mudguards are very closely fitted and have the SKS aero shapers top and bottom which between them dump all water back on the road rather than on my feet and the crankset. But they can do nothing about standing water, in places pretty deep, splashing outside their control. BTW, my SKS P60s are the shorter, sporting version because the long ones weren't available when I ordered the bike, but they seem more than adequate, especially with the aero shapers to guide the water away from human and accompanying transmission.

Alzo, the cloak was pretty sweaty, even with what one would think from the appearance of the wide tent open at the bottom to be more than adequate air circulation. So you'd be wet from the bottom and hot and sweaty from the top. Duh. I tried it for a walking cloak, fortunately only around the town, rather than on the mountain for which I was testing it, and it was next to useless. But most mountain cloaks are next to useless anyway -- i have the usual Alpine cloaks you'd expect to see on the coatrack of a keen hillwalker, most little-used because I use a Berghaus jacket instead, the Himalayan cut thigh length type like Chris Bonington wore to conquer the mountain, over normal street khakis and worry about wet legs on the mountain when it is too late to do anything about it.

The Dutch dealer was also offering a long tight fitting coat of transparent plastic as a cycling-specific item, but I don't quite see how one would ride in it on a diamond frame.

Andre Jute
Pity traditional waxed cotton is so heavy because it beats most manmade materials on most other parameters. -- unsolicited endorsement for Barbour, the horsey set's fave rain covers.

[Frank Krygowski]

I had to look that up, but yes, maybe something like that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:00:35 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:

> > There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
> > comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
> > survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
> > weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
> > "Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
> > pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
> > dirt.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Axel
> That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris. On the way back, about 2 days after the start, it poured and poured and rained and rained for about 8 straight hours. And it was cold. Temps in the 50s Fahrenheit. It rained on me from about 10 PM to 3 AM on the way back. Buckets of rain at night and cold cold cold. So it did cause physical problems with the riders and bikes. BUT, PBP is not an official race. You just have to complete the ride in 80 or 84 or 90 total hours. And get to the various checkpoints before the cutoff time. But its not a race. You just have to ride at 10 mph constantly for the whole 90 hours and you make it. So you can stop and rest or shelter from the rain and cold. And there are towns and places to stop along the route. Every 50 miles or so. For me I rode 5 hours and 50 miles in the worst rain and cold possible before getting to a checkpoint with a shower and food and bed. I stopped there and cleaned up and rested for a few hours before continuing the next morning. Which was a warm pleasant day. It was only that 8 hour stretch of horrible rain and cold. And you could have avoided some of it without too much trouble.
>
> So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant. The water was so strong it was falling out of the sky just as hard as it was splashing up from the road. Everything was soaked and cold.

Yesterday I started on my ride at 1 degree C. I was riding my heaviest bike with 28 mm Continental 4 Seasons tires. Across the low level flats I was OK but seemed more tired than I should have been, I suppose because I only had a couple of cups of coffee for breakfast. I went up Niles Canyon and then turned up Palomares. Niles River was running pretty hard but Palomares creek was nearly dry at the bottom. The more I climbed the more sprinkling rain there was. Since I haven't had what I would call a hard ride in over a month, I had to stop three times on the way up to let my heart rate come down. That is unusual on this ride. I normally go all the way with no stopping. But the 40 miles took 4 hours with 500 meters of climbing. But I was dead. I just looked in my refrigerator and saw a tin of keytones. I should have taken that with me and had it before going up the Niles Canyon and it would have taken effect before the climb.

When I got home I could hardly hold my head up to see ahead. But the next hard ride should be a lot easier since I will prepare properly.

[AMuzi]

Cold for you, yes.

Much warmer here today, minus 9F when I got up, expected to
be about zero F for a high today.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, it was cold like that at Moses Lake, WA but thank heavens it was dry. Hardly ever got more than a dusting of snow. Just between the two of us, I prefer the California weather if not their idiotic government.

[Lou Holtman]

Op maandag 15 februari 2021 om 18:50:28 UTC+1 schreef cycl...@gmail.com:

It was still winter here yesterday. Most people went ice skating:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nmvsNcUjLfwLYys58

I don't do that so I went for a ride with studded tires mounted to avoid crashing on patches of ice an iced packed snow. Bloody hell talking about rolling resistance. I was exhausted after 2.5 hours and 53 km. 20.5 km/hr average.. pfff.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Well, the idea is to get exercise and not km, so mission accomplished.

[jbeattie]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 11:44:07 AM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

No way I could ride a bike on our snow/slush/deep till streets. I barely managed in a Subaru with snow tires. Freezing rain hit yesterday and took out our power along with a zillion trees. A tree fell and blocked the entrance to my neighborhood, but my lumberjack neighbors had it sawed to bits in no time. Bike theme ice picture: https://tinyurl.com/4868nb5u When the ice hits, all the dead and weak trees snap and pull down the power lines. 250,000 or more were or are without power. I worry about my roof trusses and pipes freezing since I have no heat without electricity to run my hydronic pumps.

It warmed up today, and the power to our part of the zipcode just came back. My wife and I went for a walk, and its a soggy mess of snow, water and branches. I'll be on rollers for the next few days. I took a work holiday, but now that the power is back on, I better go to work.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Thought about you when I heard that on the national radio
news. Sounds just miserable (not to say our weather's all
that much better, just not trees on power lines)

Daughter, who normally rides all over NE Chicago and into
Evanston, says the hard frozen crud layers, except in the
car lanes, has kept her off the bike and into Uber/Lyft.

[AMuzi]

On 2/15/2021 5:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

meanwhile in Chicago:
https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/02/15/relentless-snow-has-mayor-urging-patience-for-side-street-plowing-we-will-get-to-you-as-soon-as-we-possibly-can/

great photo

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/15/2021 6:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> When the ice hits, all the dead and weak trees snap and pull down the power lines. 250,000 or more were or are without power. I worry about my roof trusses and pipes freezing since I have no heat without electricity to run my hydronic pumps.
>
> It warmed up today, and the power to our part of the zipcode just came back. My wife and I went for a walk, and its a soggy mess of snow, water and branches. I'll be on rollers for the next few days.

Don't waste your energy on the rollers. Get a pedal powered hydronic
pump! Like chopping wood, it would warm you twice!

What's the actual heat source? Natural gas? If so, maybe a Stirling
Engine or even IC engine could drive the pump.

Slightly more seriously: I remember reading, long ago, a proposal to use
IC engines to heat houses. In principle, a small engine similar to one
in a portable generator could generate electricity and run a heat pump.
Waste heat could contribute to heating the house, too, just as a car's
heater delivers waste engine heat to the car's interior.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 11:34:50 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:

> meanwhile in Chicago:
> https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/02/15/relentless-snow-has-mayor-urging-patience-for-side-street-plowing-we-will-get-to-you-as-soon-as-we-possibly-can/

.
You expect snow and ice in Chicago, and incompetent street clearing. Dr Friedman, not most people's idea of a standup comedian, could do quite a turn linking union and city corruption to uncleared streets; laughter made the effort of reaching the office worthwhile.

A Greek artist sent me pictures of Athens under heavy snow. Athens!

Andre Jute
We had snow once here in West Cork. If you blinked, you missed it.

[jbeattie]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/15/2021 6:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > When the ice hits, all the dead and weak trees snap and pull down the power lines. 250,000 or more were or are without power. I worry about my roof trusses and pipes freezing since I have no heat without electricity to run my hydronic pumps.
> >
> > It warmed up today, and the power to our part of the zipcode just came back. My wife and I went for a walk, and its a soggy mess of snow, water and branches. I'll be on rollers for the next few days.
> Don't waste your energy on the rollers. Get a pedal powered hydronic
> pump! Like chopping wood, it would warm you twice!
>
> What's the actual heat source? Natural gas? If so, maybe a Stirling
> Engine or even IC engine could drive the pump.

The hydronic system is NG. It cycles, and without an electronic ignition, you'd be standing next to the boiler re-lighting the burners, but I could probably find a couple chain drive pumps. The best option would be a pedal generator/battery to bypass house current -- hey, maybe a gas generator like normal people! Necessity is the mother of re-invention.

We're such electricity wimps. Everybody is working from home these days, and being without electricity meant no work. I took a holiday -- it was Presidents' day anyway. My best biking buddy neighbor drove out of the snow-bog to the coast. My across the street neighbors went to a hotel and got their room just as power was coming on. We texted them, but they decided to continue their hotel adventure. We were expecting the outage to go on longer as it has for a lot of people in the metro area. The neighbors next to them were going to boil coffee water for us this morning since we have an electric stove (didn't covert that to gas when I bought gas in the house for heat). Life without coffee is just too miserable. I was rummaging around in the attic with my headlight on Sunday night looking for gas canisters for the Coleman stove but couldn't find them. I know they're somewhere. Don't you hate it when you can picture something and know it is somewhere, but you can't find it. The canister will materialize the second I buy some new ones.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Honda portable generators are cheap and quiet. You plug their output into the external power outlet of your home after turning off the main power switch from the pole. The idea of using the generator heat to heat a home is preposterous. Please learn a little practical energy use.