Redline Conquest

[Tom Kunich]

I have a Redline Conquest which is a Cross bike. As far as I can tell the only difference between a cross, gravel and road bike is the bottom bracket being slightly higher on the first two.

It is a disk brake bike and I have a friend coming next year and need to build him a rider. He is a roady.

When I first built this bike there were no hydraulic road levers available so I made it a flat bar bike with MTB components. I spoke before about how dangerous disk brake bikes are but on a road bike they should be more manageable since you have longer sight lines and can plan your braking.

The bike will of course be Campy so I've been trying to find 11 speed hydraulic levers. I can get Potenza levers but they have the "cheap" Campy problem of only shifting one gear up at a time.

So my plan is to get a Chorus or Record set of used levers now that everyone is changing over to 12 speeds and to install a Potenza rear derailleur and 11-32 cassette. I could get this fairly easily for Shimano but Campy doesn't believe that lower gears are for real men.

One of the questions I have, and can't find the answer for, is whether the Chorus or Record levers will work with the Potenza rear derailleur. So as I'm building it I have to learn that.

The Redline is aluminum and it will be lighter than Mike's custom steel Tomasinni so my plan is to put the Fulcrum tubeless tires and disk brakes on them to give him a dose of modern technology which he has spend the last several years denying is worthwhile. While I happen to think that tubeless is the only way to go on California roads, I see disks as bad. They put all of the braking loads in the incorrect areas of the bike and lord knows what will happen in the future. We've already seen them having to move the sizes of the axles up 2 mm and to eliminate the real quick release function.

But for a sports rider I suppose you can look up-to-date without having any problems.

As I build it I'll keep the string going.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 10:12:32 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I have a Redline Conquest which is a Cross bike. As far as I can tell the only difference between a cross, gravel and road bike is the bottom bracket being slightly higher on the first two.

There are other geometry differences between the three besides BB height, including chain stay length, head and seat tube angles,steering geometry and tire clearance.

> It is a disk brake bike and I have a friend coming next year and need to build him a rider. He is a roady.
>
> When I first built this bike there were no hydraulic road levers available so I made it a flat bar bike with MTB components. I spoke before about how dangerous disk brake bikes are but on a road bike they should be more manageable since you have longer sight lines and can plan your braking.

Dangerous for you, but not the rest of the world.

>
> The bike will of course be Campy so I've been trying to find 11 speed hydraulic levers. I can get Potenza levers but they have the "cheap" Campy problem of only shifting one gear up at a time.

Why will it be a Campy? Buy a 105 11sp hydro group and call it good.

> So my plan is to get a Chorus or Record set of used levers now that everyone is changing over to 12 speeds and to install a Potenza rear derailleur and 11-32 cassette. I could get this fairly easily for Shimano but Campy doesn't believe that lower gears are for real men.

Buy Shimano and skip the headache. Re-sale will be better for the CX market.

> One of the questions I have, and can't find the answer for, is whether the Chorus or Record levers will work with the Potenza rear derailleur. So as I'm building it I have to learn that.

> The Redline is aluminum and it will be lighter than Mike's custom steel Tomasinni so my plan is to put the Fulcrum tubeless tires and disk brakes on them to give him a dose of modern technology which he has spend the last several years denying is worthwhile. While I happen to think that tubeless is the only way to go on California roads, I see disks as bad. They put all of the braking loads in the incorrect areas of the bike and lord knows what will happen in the future. We've already seen them having to move the sizes of the axles up 2 mm and to eliminate the real quick release function.

The rest of the world manages. I commute on discs every day, and they're the only thing I ride for wet weather weekend riding. IMO, a front through-axle is as quick or quicker than a QR with lawyer lips when it comes to fixing flats. Rear is probably slower. The bike racks at my building have lots of disc-brake bikes ridden by ordinary commuter goons who aren't killing themselves.

BTW, why all the effort? Don't you have three or four road bikes? Give him one of those and skip the rebuild. Sell the CX bike if you're not using it.

My disc CX is my commuter, so it gets lots of use. It's also a pig and not much fun to ride compared to the gravel bike or road bike. I don't like Cannondale's choice of steering angle, which is counter the usual steep CX front end. It's too slack and gives the front end a super heavy feeling. I got the frame as a warranty replacement and it came with the new "out front" geometry along with BB30, a different HS standard and other stuff I had to accommodate during my rebuild. The front disc is, in fact, a little soft, and I'll have to attend to that. It's probably a dirty pad, or I need to juice it up a little. I rebuilt that caliper, and I'm hoping its not a leak -- which I doubt.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

The measurements on the cross bikes and the steel road bikes I have are almost identical. While the top tube length on the cross bikes a very slightly shorter the fork angle is slightly larger putting the rider about the same position between the wheels and slightly closer to the BB center. This puts the tiniest higher proportion of weight over the front wheel on the cross bike.

On the Redline you can't tell but on the Ridley it is clear that you are better positioned for more upright riding.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/d/san-leandro-ridley-xbow-60-cm/6999381664.html

Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance. The Pros no longer use disk brake bikes if they believe that their course will cause flats. And then have a same size teammate riding with them so that they merely change bikes. The Mavic neutral support cars only carry rim brake wheels since all of the others are non-standard. Its difficult enough with 11-12 and 14 speed wheels with Shimano and Campy spacing.

Which reminds me - On four separate occasions now I have been descending in high gear and the chain has jumped the cassette to the outside of the small cog. I have checked the limit screws and they are set properly. Since this is one of those super-expensive Connnex chains, I ordered a 10 speed chain but I wonder if I got an 11 speed which is a whole lot more flexible and more likely to throw off a 10 speed cassette. Since the cassette is 11-29 I use a medium arm rear derailleur. I suppose I could cut a link out of the chain but right now it cross chains beautifully and with no discernable drag.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:14:24 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 10:12:32 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > I have a Redline Conquest which is a Cross bike. As far as I can tell the only difference between a cross, gravel and road bike is the bottom bracket being slightly higher on the first two.
> >
> > There are other geometry differences between the three besides BB height, including chain stay length, head and seat tube angles,steering geometry and tire clearance.
> >
> > > It is a disk brake bike and I have a friend coming next year and need to build him a rider. He is a roady.
> > >
> > > When I first built this bike there were no hydraulic road levers available so I made it a flat bar bike with MTB components. I spoke before about how dangerous disk brake bikes are but on a road bike they should be more manageable since you have longer sight lines and can plan your braking.
> >
> > Dangerous for you, but not the rest of the world.
> >
> > >
> > > The bike will of course be Campy so I've been trying to find 11 speed hydraulic levers. I can get Potenza levers but they have the "cheap" Campy problem of only shifting one gear up at a time.
> >
> > Why will it be a Campy? Buy a 105 11sp hydro group and call it good.
> >
> > > So my plan is to get a Chorus or Record set of used levers now that everyone is changing over to 12 speeds and to install a Potenza rear derailleur and 11-32 cassette. I could get this fairly easily for Shimano but Campy doesn't believe that lower gears are for real men.
> >
> > Buy Shimano and skip the headache. Re-sale will be better for the CX market.
> >
> > > One of the questions I have, and can't find the answer for, is whether the Chorus or Record levers will work with the Potenza rear derailleur. So as I'm building it I have to learn that.
> >
> > > The Redline is aluminum and it will be lighter than Mike's custom steel Tomasinni so my plan is to put the Fulcrum tubeless tires and disk brakes on them to give him a dose of modern technology which he has spend the last several years denying is worthwhile. While I happen to think that tubeless is the only way to go on California roads, I see disks as bad. They put all of the braking loads in the incorrect areas of the bike and lord knows what will happen in the future. We've already seen them having to move the sizes of the axles up 2 mm and to eliminate the real quick release function.
> >
> > The rest of the world manages. I commute on discs every day, and they're the only thing I ride for wet weather weekend riding. IMO, a front through-axle is as quick or quicker than a QR with lawyer lips when it comes to fixing flats. Rear is probably slower. The bike racks at my building have lots of disc-brake bikes ridden by ordinary commuter goons who aren't killing themselves.
> >
> > BTW, why all the effort? Don't you have three or four road bikes? Give him one of those and skip the rebuild. Sell the CX bike if you're not using it.
> >
> > My disc CX is my commuter, so it gets lots of use. It's also a pig and not much fun to ride compared to the gravel bike or road bike. I don't like Cannondale's choice of steering angle, which is counter the usual steep CX front end. It's too slack and gives the front end a super heavy feeling. I got the frame as a warranty replacement and it came with the new "out front" geometry along with BB30, a different HS standard and other stuff I had to accommodate during my rebuild. The front disc is, in fact, a little soft, and I'll have to attend to that. It's probably a dirty pad, or I need to juice it up a little. I rebuilt that caliper, and I'm hoping its not a leak -- which I doubt.
>
> The measurements on the cross bikes and the steel road bikes I have are almost identical. While the top tube length on the cross bikes a very slightly shorter the fork angle is slightly larger putting the rider about the same position between the wheels and slightly closer to the BB center. This puts the tiniest higher proportion of weight over the front wheel on the cross bike.

That could be. Steel road bikes of yore in large sizes had shitty geometry with too-short top-tubes and often ridiculously steep geometry. My CX bike has different geometry than my modern road bike(s) and gravel bike.

> On the Redline you can't tell but on the Ridley it is clear that you are better positioned for more upright riding.
>
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/d/san-leandro-ridley-xbow-60-cm/6999381664.html
>
> Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

The Pros no longer use disk brake bikes if they believe that their course will cause flats. And then have a same size teammate riding with them so that they merely change bikes. The Mavic neutral support cars only carry rim brake wheels since all of the others are non-standard. Its difficult enough with 11-12 and 14 speed wheels with Shimano and Campy spacing.

Well, that's wrong. Even on the Paris Roubaix flat-fest, many pros were riding discs, including winner Philippe Gilbert. https://road.cc/content/tech-news/259273-philippe-gilberts-paris-roubaix-winning-specialized-roubaix That makes sense since you can run 28mm tires easily on a disc frame -- or 30mm even. Mavic carries neutral support bikes and some disc wheels.

None of this matters for mortals JRA. The time differential between fixing a rear flat on my through-axle Synapse and my rim-brake Emonda is negligible.

> Which reminds me - On four separate occasions now I have been descending in high gear and the chain has jumped the cassette to the outside of the small cog. I have checked the limit screws and they are set properly. Since this is one of those super-expensive Connnex chains, I ordered a 10 speed chain but I wonder if I got an 11 speed which is a whole lot more flexible and more likely to throw off a 10 speed cassette. Since the cassette is 11-29 I use a medium arm rear derailleur. I suppose I could cut a link out of the chain but right now it cross chains beautifully and with no discernable drag.

Too much chain or inadequate tension on the cage. You need a new Shimano rear derailleur with a clutch! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWKielVcCqk But who knows, maybe it could be due to a mismatched chain/cassette.

-- Jay Beattie.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.
>
> Really? On CF forks? Not me.
>

> -- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

[Zen Cycle]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 2:59:37 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> The Pros no longer use disk brake bikes if they believe that their
> course will cause flats.

Gee skippy, still getting Andre to do your research, I see.....(hint: he's not very good at it)

Scroll through this photo gallery and you'll see more than half the peloton is using disc brakes:

http://www.steephill.tv/2019/paris-roubaix/photos/page-01/

so I guess the pros aren't worried about flats at Paris Roubaix?

> And then have a same size teammate riding with them so that they
> merely change bikes.

not always - Esteban Chaves in the 2019 Vuelta:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/forced-bike-changes-jeopardise-chaves-gc-chances-at-vuelta-a-espana/

"Chaves ran into trouble on the climb of the Coll de la Gallina, but Australian teammate Damien Howson was on hand to give his teammate his bike to continue on the climb. However, the saddle height of 1.88-metre-tall [6'2"] Howson was far too high for the 1.64m [5'5"] climber, and Chaves was subsequently forced to change to Tsgabu Grmay's bike, which was slightly better, with the Ethiopean measuring only 1.75m"

Video here:

https://www.facebook.com/globalcyclingnetwork/videos/esteban-chaves-big-bike-change-vuelta-2019/1313074978854737/

> The Mavic neutral support cars only carry rim brake wheels since all
> of the others are non-standard.

Ah...no..Mavic has been providing disc brake nutral support since at least 2017. This is an image from the 2019 Paris Roubaix, Zoom in and you'll see a pair of disc brake wheels on the back of the motor cycle.

https://rouleur.cc/editorial/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/04_Rouleur_ParisRoubaix_6279-1024x683.jpg

That picture is from this story on the 2019 Paris Roubaix:

https://rouleur.cc/editorial/not-all-superheroes-wear-lycra-paris-roubaix-race-day-with-mavic-neutral-service/

"There is another game-changer for Mavic to consider: disc brakes. In the 2017 edition, Direct Energie, Sunweb, Delko Marseille, five Bahrain-Merida riders and a lone Cannondale-Drapac man (Will Clarke) were on them. “They know a wheel change takes longer, so they can’t really complain,”

Ledingham says of the process, which includes taking the through axle out, aligning the new wheel with the disc and getting the chain on properly. “It’s bound to add around 20 seconds for the rear.” However, disc brakes are here to stay: one Mavic mechanic reckons every team will be using them at Paris-Roubaix within five years."

All this stuff is pretty old news to anyone who actually follows cycling. When was the last time you actually watched a pro race? Based on what you wrote above, it wasn't an time in the recent past.

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/tour-de-france-bikes/
Mindless paperwork queens are always trying to convince people that they know what they're talking about even when they don't. Tell us Jr., why do you comment on things you know so little of?

[Zen Cycle]

On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 11:06:54 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/tour-de-france-bikes/

Did you even bother to read that link, sparky? apparently not. Even the pictures show half the pro tour teams are riding discs.

> Mindless paperwork queens are always trying to convince people that they
> know what they're talking about even when they don't. Tell us Jr.,
> why do you comment on things you know so little of?

Your link shows pictures of the following teams bikes - with disc brakes:

Bora-Hansgrohe
Deceuninck Quick-Step
Dimension Data
Team Katusha-Alpecin
Mitchelton-Scott

Sunweb and Wanty-Group are riding some bikes with discs, some bikes with rims.

Again, skippy, The link you posted directly contradicts your claim. So, who is it that doesn't know what they're talking about?

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.
> >
> > Really? On CF forks? Not me.
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
>
> As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.

>
> Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

Lou

[Sir Ridesalot]

Lawyer Lips almost defeat the purpose of having a quick release.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

> Lawyer Lips almost defeat the purpose of having a quick release.

I have them on a disc CX bike that has QRs, and they're not getting ground off. I also have them on a Emonda SLR frame, and they're not getting ground off. Why grind up a nice set of light CF forks? I'm not racing, and they do have a legitimate safety function. It takes 30 seconds to spin the QR nut, and in the event I zone out and forget to get the cam tight, I've got some back-up. I might think differently if super-fast wheel changes were an issue, but they're not. It's inconvenient for the wash stand and roof rack (rarely used -- mostly use a hitch rack), but I endure. I also endure with through axles.

-- Jay Beattie.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 5:35:01 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Really? On CF forks? Not me.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Jay Beattie.
> > > >
> > > > As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.
> > >
> > > Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.
> > >
> > > +1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.
>
> An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

They are because every time you can forget to adjust the QR correctly.

>
> > Lawyer Lips almost defeat the purpose of having a quick release.
>
> I have them on a disc CX bike that has QRs, and they're not getting ground off. I also have them on a Emonda SLR frame, and they're not getting ground off. Why grind up a nice set of light CF forks? I'm not racing, and they do have a legitimate safety function. It takes 30 seconds to spin the QR nut, and in the event I zone out and forget to get the cam tight, I've got some back-up.
I might think differently if super-fast wheel changes were an issue, but they're not. It's inconvenient for the wash stand and roof rack (rarely used -- mostly use a hitch rack), but I endure. I also endure with through axles.

They are always an inconvenience and only a safety feature for something they created themselves.

Lou
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Agreed.

But the "safety" problem forms a sort of lesson. I think some here often
forget how mechanically incompetent ordinary people can sometimes be.

I talked about the PhD electrical engineer who had to ask me to adjust
his bike's brakes. He's far from unique.

People that low level of mechanical aptitude should be directed toward
nutted axles, not quick releases. A suitable wrench can be light weight
and if necessary, made to be stored on the frame or under the saddle.

(Our Bikes Friday came with a double-ended Allen wrench that stows in a
hole in the bottle cage.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? On CF forks? Not me.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>>
>>>> As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.
>>>
>>> Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.
>>>
>>> +1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.
>
> An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust and
operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust the
quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just by
the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to me,
it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I have, but only for a brief while after taking a bike off a stand. Hit the brakes, and its a wake-up call.

I was in a race and looked down during a climb and saw that my cam was almost off -- from a quick wheel installation after getting to a race late, and that was on lip-less fork ends. I stopped, readjusted and slaughtered myself to get back on and got shelled later -- and made heroic efforts to get back on and then got shelled again and finished with some grupetto. I remember that race well for some reason.

OT, one reason I remember that race is because I did it year after year. Nasty climbing course, but when the cam came loose, I was riding behind a guy on a Softride with a disc rear wheel or three spoke or something that made the bike go whoo-whoo-whoo-whoo as the wheel went around. So, imaging following a guy on a pogo stick with a rear wheel that sounded like a distant helicopter. All he needed was an MP3 player/speakers blaring Die Walküre.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

On the smartest day of your life you couldn't out-think a tin pan could you? Someone that claims to be the world's expert in anything and everything cannot even understand the English Language.

[Tom Kunich]

I have owned all sorts of carbon bikes and perhaps if I had something with carbon dropouts I probably wouldn't take them off but I've never seen anything but aluminum dropouts. I can't even see why you would use carbon dropouts since the material is not designed to have extreme pressure applied in the fashion of a quick release and there wouldn't be weight saved because the carbon would have to be thicker than normal and very dense.

Furthermore, all modern bikes have replaceable derailleur hangers and those cannot be screwed into carbon.

[Radey Shouman]

By feature I guess you mean quick release axles. How about drop bars?
Multi-speed freewheels as opposed to internally geared hubs? Toe clips?

[AMuzi]

It was mandated by the Federal government through CPSC
regulations of 1974. At one time, there were a half-dozen
styles ranging from elegant to Rube Goldberg. The infamous
'lawyer lips' won out.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

It probably isn't a good idea on a disk bike because the forces of the disk act in a direction to pull the wheel out of the dropout.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/21/2019 1:17 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> OT, one reason I remember that race is because I did it year after year. Nasty climbing course, but when the cam came loose, I was riding behind a guy on a Softride with a disc rear wheel or three spoke or something that made the bike go whoo-whoo-whoo-whoo as the wheel went around. So, imaging following a guy on a pogo stick with a rear wheel that sounded like a distant helicopter. All he needed was an MP3 player/speakers blaring Die Walküre.

One of my friends had a bike that sounds identical. I remember his
bouncing, but I don't remember the odd sounds.

It would be interesting to see a pictorial history of modern performance
bicycles brief fads: 19mm tires, drillium, Bio-Pace, Softride, Zzipper
fairings, Tri-spokes, ultra-short wheelbases with bent seat tubes...
what else?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Drop bars, perhaps yes. They really don't help most people on bikes;
their value is only for long or fast rides. Interestingly, I've noticed
that several of our club members' new-this-year bikes have flat bars of
one flavor or another, for use on rides of 20 to 30 miles at least.

Toe clips are similar, but as I recall, those were normally add-on
accessories, not stock equipment.

I think derailleur gears make more sense than hub gears for a lot of
people. I do use a three-speed Sturmey-Archer hub on one utility bike,
but its gear range would be insufficient if the hills were much worse.
And I think hub gears are pricier than derailleurs of equivalent quality.



--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

When I commuted along Bloor Street in Toronto Canada, I often stopped a bicyclist because their quick-release lever was sticking straight out from the wheel, that is the lever was parallel to the ground and in line with the hub. For such people layer lips might be a good idea. Sometimes I'd just lightly tap their quick-release lever and it's open. Turned out that no one ever showed the person how to use a quick release. That problem was even worse with department store bicycles.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, 21 October 2019 12:31:55 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

A surprising number of people use a quick release like a one-sided wing nut. They just turn the lever until the thing feels tight and often the curve of the lever is facing away from the wheel.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

1974? Are you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s that did not have lawyer lips.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

I often thought that a 3-speed SA or Shimano internal gear hub and a triple crank would be ideal for a lot of people.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

Good catch. Our 1986 Cannondales never had them, AFAIK. Maybe it wasn't
a CPSC mandate, but instead a voluntary reaction to lawsuits?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Perhaps so. But I'd strongly recommend SA over Shimano, based on my
experience. Of course, you'd need a chain tensioning system - jockey
pulleys or something similar.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

They either had one of several other systems:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/151748688304-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TGH3AU9SqmY/U0awDLzaMEI/AAAAAAAALnc/P6TdHLWXvyQ/s1600/bike+before+front+wheel.jpg

and there was plenty of prior art, like this mid-1950s
Raleigh with keyhole fork tips:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/forkrich.jpg

or, in the case of many Italian and Japanese small
production race frames, they simply ignored the regulation.

[AMuzi]

Being a happy three speed rider for many long years I'm not
so sure about that.

Front changers and a chain tensioner conflict with the
simplicity of an internal gear system. Even Raleigh's Cyclo
conversion kit to add two or 3 sprockets to a Sturmey AW
gearbox was not all that popular. And that used long lasting
inexpensive 1/8" chain rather than skinny 3/32" chain.
Triple is s tough sell to our crowd.

Many internal gearbox cyclists merely change the sprocket,
most often from the standard 18t to a 20t, 22t or 24t, which
is cheap and quick, dropping the whole range down somewhat.

[AMuzi]

>> 1974? Are you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s
>> that did not have lawyer lips.
>
> Good catch. Our 1986 Cannondales never had them, AFAIK.
> Maybe it wasn't a CPSC mandate, but instead a voluntary
> reaction to lawsuits?
>
>

As with so much of life (how's that 100-year old worldwide
Heroin ban going?) intent and results may and usually do differ:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/1974/CPSC-Mandatory-Bicycle-Safety-Regulations-To-Take-Effect-January-1-1975/

Enforcement was uneven at best. Large manufacturers
suffered, small to midsize ignored the regulations usually.

[Frank Krygowski]

OK, that cinches it. ... or ... ??? wait, see below.

> Enforcement was uneven at best. Large manufacturers suffered, small to
> midsize ignored the regulations usually.

I'd have thought Cannondale was big enough then to attract regulator
attention. But anyway:

To double check my memory, I went downstairs to see if there was
evidence I did file "lips" off the Cannondale dropouts. I couldn't see
any visual evidence. But I'd saved the owner's manual that came with our
1986 bikes, copyright 1985.

Page 10 and 11 are devoted to "Wheel Installation and Adjustment," well
over 500 words of minute detail on "Wheels with Quick Release Mechanism"
with steps 1, 2a, 2b, 2c, 3a and 3b. LOTS of detail! They were clearly
worried about this.

But after the penultimate paragraph on "Wheels with Nut Attachment" is a
short paragraph on "Front Wheel Retainers":

"Consumer Product Safety Commission standards require that all bicycles
that have front wheels that attach to the fork with nuts instead of
quick release mechanism must have a device that will hold the wheel in
place even when the nuts are not tight..." etc.

So they claim it's only for _nutted_ axles. Which I admit, seems very weird!

The illustration just below shows how to fit their "retainer." It's
essentially a washer with an extended tab containing an elongated hole.
Their exploded view shows that washer slides over the axle, and the tab
is intended to screw to an eyelet on top of the fork dropout - the one
on a double eyelet fork that sometimes supports a front rack.

I don't know any more about the discrepancy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

And while the crowd may be relatively small, it contains enthusiastic
members!

Shortly after I built up my three speed, I rode it to the post office
one Saturday. While I was arguing with a computerized postage machine, a
guy came inside and asked "Excuse me, who owns the three speed bike
outside?"

When I said it was mine, he drooled over it for a ten minute
conversation. He said "I _LOVE_ three speed bikes!" I had the impression
that if he'd owned an all-chrome Paramount, he'd probably have traded it
to me.

> Many internal gearbox cyclists merely change the sprocket, most often
> from the standard 18t to a 20t, 22t or 24t, which is cheap and quick,
> dropping the whole range down somewhat.

I may be going the other direction with a young lad I know. He tells me
he can now climb all the hills in his 3rd (high) gear. :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

While I have never seen that I think that it was a good idea to warn Frank.

[AMuzi]

On 10/21/2019 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/21/2019 6:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/21/2019 4:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/21/2019 4:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

>>>> On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:43:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It was mandated by the Federal government through CPSC
>>>>> regulations of 1974. At one time, there were a half-dozen
>>>>> styles ranging from elegant to Rube Goldberg. The infamous
>>>>> 'lawyer lips' won out.
>>>>>
>>

>>>> 1974? Are you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s

Me neither. I wonder if Cannondale just made that up.

Some brands (Bridgestone) were both quite diligent about
that as well as frenetically creative, with some decidedly
loopy hardware.

[John B.]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.
>> > >
>> > > Really? On CF forks? Not me.
>> > >
>> > > -- Jay Beattie.
>> >
>> > As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.
>>
>> Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.
>>
>> +1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.
>>

>> Lou

>
>Lawyer Lips almost defeat the purpose of having a quick release.
>

>Cheers

Really? I can't say that I have any problems removing a wheel, with a
quick release, from a fork with lawyer's lips.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I did, for a short distance. I apparently didn't close the quick
release or somehow knocked it open and started out. We have speed
humps in the housing area and when I went over one I thought the bike
felt funny so stopped and checked and Lo! The quick release was loose.
The wheel didn't fall out, but I should point out that happened once
in maybe 20 years :-)

>I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
>trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason.

Naw, if we still used wing nuts people would be hammering them "tight"
and stripping the threads and the wheels would be falling out, perhaps
as often as they do today with quick releases :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

You have to turn the quick release lever to open the thing enough to get past those lawyer lips. Without the lawyer lips you just need to open the quick release to drop out the wheel.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

Wasn't it because he couldn't loosen his wingnuts when it was very cold that Tulio invented the quick release?

[Radey Shouman]

I frequently ride a bike I bought new in 1978. It came with CPSC
reflectors, including those on the wheels. Never had lawyer lips or any
other quick release "enhancement".

[Frank Krygowski]

I think so. And I wonder how many here remember those wingnuts.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

The real problem IMO is not spinning the thing to loosen it enough.
Tht's easy. The problem is when reinstalling the wheel, you have a trial
and error exercise to get the clamping pressure correct.

I can reduce the trial and error a bit by holding the lever aligned with
the skewer as I tighten the nut on the other end, but it still requires
a bit of fussing.

It's not earth shaking, but it's a bit of inconvenience. So I file the
lips off the dropout.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Frank has commented on the mechanical ability of the average
him/her/it and I think that he is right. If you doubt me just go to
any big box store and watch the guy assembling bicycles :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 18:04:56 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot

True, but trying to wiggle the wheel up under the fender or get both
ends of the axle in the slot while holding the rear derailer so the
chain is loose I almost always end up winding the quick release almost
off, lips or no lips :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

That's what the story is. I'd probably searched around to find a rock
and hammered the nut loose, flipped the wheel and gone on about my
business instead of starting a million dollar business :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

And how tight to make it. I've taken the wheel off bikes where you had
to hammer the quick release lever to get it open.
--
cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 10/21/2019 8:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> I have them on a disc CX bike that has QRs, and they're not getting ground off. I also have them on a Emonda SLR frame, and they're not getting ground off. Why grind up a nice set of light CF forks? I'm not racing, and they do have a legitimate safety function.

People grind them off on principle. "I'm smart enough to check the QRs
before each ride so why should I have to take three more seconds to
remove a wheel when fixing a flat or putting the bike on a fork mount rack?

[AMuzi]

Very available for those who so desire:
https://www.pashleycollection.co.uk/product/gb-wingnuts

[AMuzi]

Problem solved:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/ONE_UP.JPG

made in Richland County WI USA

[AMuzi]

?? derailleur?

Rears don't have wheel retention devices as an unsecured
wheel simply drags on the chainstay without a rider safety
aspect.

[AMuzi]

We see that every day. Oil the QR cam.

[Frank Krygowski]

Wow. What will they think of next?

But I filed off the lips, so now I don't need one! :-/


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Also available in a drawer in my basement! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:41:56 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:41:09 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.
> > > >
> > > > Really? On CF forks? Not me.
> > > >
> > > > -- Jay Beattie.
> > >
> > > As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.
> >
> > Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.
> >
> > +1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.
> >

> > Lou
>
> I have owned all sorts of carbon bikes and perhaps if I had something with carbon dropouts I probably wouldn't take them off but I've never seen anything but aluminum dropouts.

Half of my CF forks have CF dropouts.

I can't even see why you would use carbon dropouts since the material is not designed to have extreme pressure applied in the fashion of a quick release and there wouldn't be weight saved because the carbon would have to be thicker than normal and very dense.

It is an integral part of the fork instead of glueing the aluminum insert in.

>
> Furthermore, all modern bikes have replaceable derailleur hangers and those cannot be screwed into carbon.

All of my CF frames have CF rear ropouts. We mechanical engineers found a solution for the replaceable hanger ;-)


Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

On principle? Really? I think people who grind them off know what they doing and made a risk assessment for their situation before doing that. They don't need a snotty remark from someone who 'benefit' from lawyer lips.

Lou

[sms]

I think that Jay actually doesn't benefit from "lawyer lips." They've
eliminated lawsuits based on wheels falling off. I wonder what happens
if someone that's ground off the lawyer lips sells the bike to someone
who doesn't realize what's been done. Who gets sued in that case? I can
see the plaintiff's lawyer insisting that the bike manufacturer never
explicitly stated that the lawyer lips should not be removed.

However it is true that for those that are less mechanically inclined,
they are more likely to screw things up with lawyer lips because they
don't understand that they need to manually loosen and tighten the nut.
They may use the QR lever as a wing nut.

I've never seen anyone lose a wheel, either before or after lawyer lips
were introduced. However what I have seen is a bicycle on a fork mount
roof rack going down the highway with one side of the fork out of the
mount, and the bike at a 20-30 degree angle on the rack. That was
probably the end of that fork. The driver was oblivious to what was
happening.

[Sir Ridesalot]

In department stores I've seen bicycles with the front fork on backwards, brake levers that hit the handlebar before the brake pads hit the rims, quick-release wheels with loose skewers, quick-release wheels with the lever facing frontwards on t he front wheel or downwards on the front wheel and many other assembly errors. These were all on bicycles being sold to the public and were so called ready to go.

When I mention using the quick release like a one-ear wingnut upthread, I was talking about bicycles WITHOUT lawyer lips.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/22/2019 2:21 PM, sms wrote:
>
>
> I've never seen anyone lose a wheel, either before or after lawyer lips
> were introduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuFejyvKhq8

and many others. Admittedly, you can find anything on YouTube.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

It isn't a bother putting your bike on the rack. It is a REAL bother along side of a busy high speed road trying to get the hell out of there before some lout talking on his cell phone center punches you at 60 mph.

[John B.]

I don't speak French :-)

>
>Rears don't have wheel retention devices as an unsecured
>wheel simply drags on the chainstay without a rider safety
>aspect.

No wheel retention, but trying to hold the rear of the bike up off the
ground, hold the derailer back to clear the cassette, make sure that
the chain isn't going to fall in the dirt, and wiggle the axle out of
the drop outs, I always seem to have to loosen the quick release a
considerable way.

And putting the wheel back on is even worse :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 10/22/2019 9:26 AM, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> I can't even see why you would use carbon dropouts since the material is not designed to have extreme pressure applied in the fashion of a quick release and there wouldn't be weight saved because the carbon would have to be thicker than normal and very dense.

Because it's carbon.

[sms]

On 10/21/2019 9:36 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Frank has commented on the mechanical ability of the average
> him/her/it and I think that he is right. If you doubt me just go to
> any big box store and watch the guy assembling bicycles :-)

We don't have many Walmarts around my area but the one in Mountain View
used to have a real bike shop with a real bicycle mechanic in the front
of the store. It may have been a leased out department. They removed it
at least ten years ago. Now all the bicycle accessories are locked up in
cases, I guess they are high theft items.

[Zen Cycle]

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:36:21 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > Again, skippy, The link you posted directly contradicts your claim. So, who is it that doesn't know what they're talking about?
>
> On the smartest day of your life you couldn't out-think a tin pan could
> you?

That's a question you should be asking yourself.

> Someone that claims to be the world's expert in anything and
> everything

I've never claimed that. Not even close. In fact, I'm smart enough to know that the more I learn, the more I find out I don't know. You don't seem to understand the complexity of life in general.

> cannot even understand the English Language.

You me the english language in your link that lists specific riders bikes that are equipped with discs?

You really are beyond pathetic. Rather than actually address the issue, the entire content of your argument is 'you're stupid'. You really aren't with the trouble.

[Tom Kunich]

You mean the list that shows more riders ride with rim brakes than disks? And despite saying that they use disks on TT bikes the vast majority don't? Or that Guess Who didn't even ride his sponsor's bike because it had disks on the TT bike?

[jbeattie]

Your initial post was wrong. Mavic neutral support does carry disc wheels https://tinyurl.com/yyc25cmv; pros riding flat-inducing courses like the Paris Roubaix are riding discs, including this year's winner. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/specialized-roubaix-dominates-at-debut-race/ Some pro teams use disc wheels and some do not. When the spring classics start, we'll have a better idea of who is riding what. BTW, Alaphilippe won the TdF TT on a disc-equipped Specialized Shiv: https://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/a28323526/tour-de-france-gear-julian-alaphilippe/

Most people do not fear discs. I was riding rim brakes today, and in the wet leaves and muck, the pads sounded like a lathe on my tender aluminum brake tracks on the Dura-Ace wheels. I wish I had discs. In fact, I wish I had a gravel bike rather than a race bike on the leaf covered dirt road climb.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, that is not "neutral support" since they only carry Mavic disk wheels which only mount on Mavic wheel specific frames - or at least they did unless they have made a universal standard since the last time I looked. They make a point of that during the last Tour. They talked about how the Mavic wheels didn't fit and the team car was way back and the mechanic was running up with the proper disk wheel. Whoever it was, was changing bikes with a teammate and halted since it wasn't the correct size and the mechanic had arrived.

[jbeattie]

They carry neutral support bicycles primarily, and there is no Mavic wheel specific frame -- there are just through axle/hub standards, but yes, if you're running some odd-ball Specialized SCS standard, the Mavic wheels either won't fit or won't shift right. I suspect the neutral support disc wheels they have are 12/100 and 12/142, and I believe the article said 160mm rotors. This is not a universal standard but probably the most common. If you have the narrower Specialized rear or a 15mm front or a 140mm rotor, you're SOL and get a yellow bike to ride. I'm sure there are similar problems with Campy/Shimano incompatibility and maybe even 11/12 speed, etc. There are so many variations even without discs that neutral support must be a nightmare. The year one team was running one-by was probably the worst, but that looks to be a thing of the past. The riders hated it. I think the Mavic bike with a dropper post is probably the best choice these days.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

As far as I know there are 8, 9 and 10 mm axles and quick releases on the 8 mm and quick releases or screw-in on the 9 mm and two different sorts of screw-in on the 10 mm.

Unless they have settled on a standard since the Tour it remains the same with quick release wheels mostly being the age old rim brakes. The Neutral support car simply doesn't have room to carry all the different types and why should they?

The UCI has even passed a rule that you cannot have a rim brake mounted behind the fork head since it is an unfair aero advantage (???)

[AMuzi]

Standards are great - and so we have an endless supply of them:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/road-bike-thru-axle-standard-yet-308139
(note that was a year and a half ago. There are more now)

What self-respecting brand manager would ever use the same
format as THOSE PEOPLE at the other vendor?

And in our brave new world where tooling cost is almost nil,
anyone can just make things up. And many do.

[Tom Kunich]

Now we have to figure out a way to get Lawyers Lips on them for Jay to not remove.

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, October 27, 2019 at 12:04:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

And right here in Ory-gun: https://robertaxleproject.com/ Through axles making the economy strong!

The Cycling Weekly article does reinforce the idea that 12/100 12/142 is becoming the standard, if it is not dislodged by Boost, or Boost Plus, or Boost 2.0, 2.1, etc.

-- Jay Beattie.