Water Bottle Cage Mount Screws: M4 or M5?
(PeteCresswell)
They measure just a hair under 5 mm, but take a 4mm Allen key.
So I guess they're either "m4" or "m5"... but which?
--
PeteCresswell
AMuzi
Machine threads measure at the OD of the thread. Less
clearance (although nominally 5mm), actual is probably 0.485mm.
DIN 985 spec for an m5x0.8 bolt is a 4mm allen drive. Most
screws will be at that standard.
Specific parts, such as the classic Shimano DOXT of the
early 1980s, may have 6mm (or 5mm) allen drive. DIN 7991 for
5mm is a 3mm allen key but Shimano SPD cleat screws use a
4mm key. These are specials, not DIN standard fasteners.
At any rate, although parts makers may choose a different
size allen drive, a special thread is virtually unknown for
fasteners today.
p.s. If you're a 'regular' at your LBS, 5mm screws are often
free for the asking.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
AMuzi
D'oh!
First sentence should end "4.85mm".
oops
SMS
M5.
You need to order screws like that where you are? There's 5 stores near
me that sell those screws, for as little as 3 cents each.
(PeteCresswell)
>
>You need to order screws like that where you are? There's 5 stores near
>me that sell those screws, for as little as 3 cents each.
I want stainless - and the hardware stores around don't do metric
stainless.
--
PeteCresswell
(PeteCresswell)
>First sentence should end "4.85mm".
I'm glad to hear that bc when I measured them with my new
caliper, that's what I got - instead of 5mm - and I was starting
to wonder about the device's accuracy....
--
PeteCresswell
z
Are you close to any kind of boating or marine hardware store?
AMuzi
>> First sentence should end "4.85mm".
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> I'm glad to hear that bc when I measured them with my new
> caliper, that's what I got - instead of 5mm - and I was starting
> to wonder about the device's accuracy....
If both a nut and screw were truly 5mm, you could not turn them.
Here's a typical thread guide:
http://mdmetric.com/tech/threadtech.pdf
(PeteCresswell)
>Are you close to any kind of boating or marine hardware store?
No - and the ones I have been to don't do hex-head cap screws.
The online suppliers seem pretty good: mind-boggling array of
sizes/grades/types and prices/shipping that beat almost any
amount of driving/wasted man hours.
--
PeteCresswell
thirty-six
Try a MC shop, a stainless hex socket panhead M5 seems likely for
fairings.
Nate Nagel
In stainless, I don't have a single source now that the good marine
fastener place closed. I order from McMaster-Carr and cut to length.
Wish that I had a screw cutter for metric stuff like the one built into
my crimping tool (nicely cuts 6-32, 8-32, 10-32 screws for electrical
work) I end up using a hacksaw and bench grinder
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Nate Nagel
West Marine doesn't really have a good selection, I've found. Used to
be a good store in Annapolis that had everything, but they closed. Too
bad, because I bought stuff there (small stuff, but still) about 2x a
month generally.
AMuzi
We more commonly add a spacer under the head than cut the
screw (chain clearance at rear carrier, etc).
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
why add a space not cut the screw ?
Cresswell doesn't have an Ace or Truevalue next door ? Where do you
live ? Wyoming ?
tap it out and use SAE
Ronko
a...@yellowjersey.org says...
meaning you've paid full retail for one or two bikes, they may
inclinded to give you a bolt. Otherwise .50 - $1 a piece. Going to the
local hardware store nets you the same thing at 5 cents each.
bjwe...@gmail.com
A nut that screws onto a 10-32 screw or a tool that cuts a 10-32
will fit onto or cut an M5x0.8 metric screw, unless you are building
space shuttles with it, and if you are, just buy the right length.
Ben
Tad McClellan
> In article <hm9kfn$kvk$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> a...@yellowjersey.org says...
>>
>>
>>(PeteCresswell) wrote:
>>> I want to order some, but can't figure out the nomenclature.
>>> They measure just a hair under 5 mm, but take a 4mm Allen key.
>>> So I guess they're either "m4" or "m5"... but which?
>>
>>Machine threads measure at the OD of the thread. Less
>>clearance (although nominally 5mm), actual is probably 0.485mm.
>>
>>DIN 985 spec for an m5x0.8 bolt is a 4mm allen drive. Most
>>screws will be at that standard.
>>
>>Specific parts, such as the classic Shimano DOXT of the
>>early 1980s, may have 6mm (or 5mm) allen drive. DIN 7991 for
>>5mm is a 3mm allen key but Shimano SPD cleat screws use a
>>4mm key. These are specials, not DIN standard fasteners.
>>
>>At any rate, although parts makers may choose a different
>>size allen drive, a special thread is virtually unknown for
>>fasteners today.
>>
>>p.s. If you're a 'regular' at your LBS, 5mm screws are often
>>free for the asking.
> Right. If you're a regular at some of the high-end shops around here,
> meaning you've paid full retail for one or two bikes, they may
> inclinded to give you a bolt. Otherwise .50 - $1 a piece.
I'll tire-kick at a half-dozen LBSes multiple time each before
I buy a bike (from only one of them, of course), they need to
amortize all of that time.
LBSers have to eat too.
> Going to the
> local hardware store nets you the same thing at 5 cents each.
Hardware store guys get their calories from the beer, so they don't
have to eat. :-)
(errr, so do many cyclists, I gather)
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
(PeteCresswell)
>If you have to go on-line, mcmastercarr.com is a great place to do
>business with.
That's the one that prompted my "mind-boggling array" comment.
Also, IMHO, a really slick UI.
--
PeteCresswell
(PeteCresswell)
>We more commonly add a spacer under the head than cut the
>screw (chain clearance at rear carrier, etc).
Do you have a preference for head type?
Until I looked at McMaster-Carr, I thought "standard" was the
only game in town. Now I see there are two others that look
like they might be more functional bc they present less to catch
on something: "Button" and "Flange Button".
--
PeteCresswell
Mike Rocket J Squirrel
>
> Hardware store guys get their calories from the beer, so they don't
> have to eat. :-)
>
> (errr, so do many cyclists, I gather)
You've seen me about town, then.
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
Bend, Oregon
datakoll
buttons ! spiff ! we use buttons replacing the bear traps rivits. do
you have recycled speaker magnets for retention and location ?
AMuzi
Where tool engagement/torque is not important, sure.
A DIN 912 has a beefy deep 4mm drive but a 7991 or a ULS has
a 3mm drive and much shallower broach.
datakoll
blue loctite with adequate surface preperation !
saved the British Empire !
datakoll
bought a bag of 3/16ths two days ago and VVCF!@#as12! can't find the
damned things. maybe under the anchor ?
centralize and bench even when mobile
or die !
Tad McClellan
I've not been to Bend, but I sure enjoy touring the many microbreweries
when I visit Portland!
datakoll
McClellan needs nut/bolt/pin m agnets ?
AMuzi
Did you check on the speaker magnet?
Nate Nagel
that doesn't help with the M6 screws that are also used on a bike
actually I just got an idea, buy another crimp tool and drill/tap more
holes in the jaws. why didn't I think of that before.
It is really handy to have a screw cutter around not only for bikes but
for other stuff as well, e.g. I bought a box of 100 solid brass screws
for cover plates, rather than buying another box, if I need one for a
decora plate I just cut one shorter. Likewise with fixture hanging
screws, I bought a box of very long ones, if I need a "normal" one I
just cut to length. That way I only have to buy one box of each type
screw and keep the clutter and expense to a minimum.
AMuzi
>>> First sentence should end "4.85mm".
> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote
>> I'm glad to hear that bc when I measured them with my new
>> caliper, that's what I got - instead of 5mm - and I was starting
>> to wonder about the device's accuracy....
Phil W Lee wrote:
> The size of the standard metric threads is the size of the bar stock
> you need if you are going to cut that size thread in it.
> Of course, that will be different from the size you need if you roll a
> thread onto a bar ;)
> I'm not sure if you can still get them (mine is getting on a bit), but
> the Zeus book used to be the standard reference.
> Ah, a quick google reveals this:
> http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20633&src=froogle
> At that price, it's silly not to have one if you ever need to be
> concerned with thread fitment or any kind of engineering or fitting
> jobs.
> It's laminated, so will last almost forever, even in a workshop.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yeye7x8
It only hurts once.
My 22d edition is well worn and was worth every penny. Like
SnapOn, the value far exceeds the price.
Nate Nagel
that's where I've started to order all my hardware that I can't find
locally. I think I only stumped them once, and that was a product that
I still have yet to find. (5/16" fine thread Grade 5 carriage bolts, if
you really must know. Studebaker used them for lower front shock
mounts, and ALL carriage bolts currently on the market appear to be UNC.
Fortunately, UNC bolts seem to be acceptable in that application, or
at least I have yet to hear of anyone having a shock work loose because
of an "incorrect" aftermarket replacement lower mount bolt.)
Nate Nagel
> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:51:23 -0500, Nate Nagel<njn...@roosters.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I end up using a hacksaw and bench grinder
>
>
> They also put a nut on the screw first before cutting to back off
> after the cut and grind and clear the threads. The nut is also helpful
> to hold the screw/bolt in the vise for cutting, but only with rough
> operations when you don't care about the cosmetic appearance of the
> head when you are done. For those situations I just clamp the thread
> that will be removed, and it there's too little for that, just grind
> it off instead of cutting.
nah, you lock TWO nuts together and then clamp it in the vise. Holds it
nice and steady then. (optional for hex head bolts where the hex of the
head and nut are the same size)
Or if you're in a hurry, you just clamp it to the shelf of your grinder
pedestal with vice-grips on the head (stainless isn't that hard, after
all, so you're really not going to be reefing on it with the hacksaw.)
Nate Nagel
> (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Per AMuzi:
>>> We more commonly add a spacer under the head than cut the screw
>>> (chain clearance at rear carrier, etc).
>
>> Do you have a preference for head type?
>> Until I looked at McMaster-Carr, I thought "standard" was the
>> only game in town. Now I see there are two others that look
>> like they might be more functional bc they present less to catch
>> on something: "Button" and "Flange Button".
>
> Where tool engagement/torque is not important, sure.
>
> A DIN 912 has a beefy deep 4mm drive but a 7991 or a ULS has a 3mm drive
> and much shallower broach.
>
This is true, but aren't we still talking about bottle cage screws?
My Cannondale used button heads from the factory, and the rack mount
holes were plugged with same.
Mark J.
>
> A nut that screws onto a 10-32 screw or a tool that cuts a 10-32
> will fit onto or cut an M5x0.8 metric screw, unless you are building
> space shuttles with it, and if you are, just buy the right length.
In my experience it's the other way around:
A 10-32 bolt will screw nicely into an M5x0.8 nut, just very slightly
loose, but a M5x8.0 bolt will not screw into a 10-32 nut.
I have used 10-32 stainless screws to mount my waterbottles for years;
10-32 stainless are not hard to find in decent hardware stores.
Mark J.
bjwe...@gmail.com
Really? I never noticed that a M5 bolt would jam in
a 10-32 nut. A google search reveals that others in rbt
have also suggested this doesn't quite work. I got out my
little box of "5mm" screws, and couldn't find a nut/bolt combo
that would jam. I'm pretty sure some of the nuts are 10-32,
but the bags they came in are long gone. They may be
low grade nuts that are loose tolerance enough to not
jam on an M5 bolt.
More to the point of Nate's problem, I tried screwing
M5 bolts into the 10-32 bolt cutting hole on my cheapo
crimpers, which hole has never actually been used.
They are a tight fit and a wrench is required, but not
impossible. Obviously, if you were going to do this
a lot, you could tap the 10-32 hole out to M5.
I've never actually felt the need to trim a bolt on a bike.
The closest I've come is trying to solve shoe-cleat-screw
problems. Sometimes I've had fender or rack
bolts that were a bit too long, but there washers under
the bolt head usually work.
Ben
thirty-six
Oops, now you've discovered a choice.
thirty-six
wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:51:23 -0500, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net>
> wrote:
>
> > I end up using a hacksaw and bench grinder
>
> That's how real men do it.
>
> They also put a nut on the screw first before cutting to back off
> after the cut and grind and clear the threads. The nut is also helpful
> to hold the screw/bolt in the vise for cutting, but only with rough
> operations when you don't care about the cosmetic appearance of the
> head when you are done. For those situations I just clamp the thread
> that will be removed, and it there's too little for that, just grind
> it off instead of cutting.
Make a couple of slippers so that you have effectively a smooth jawed
vice in a moment.
Dan O
Our first-day project in 7th Grade Metal Shop.
Peter Cole
> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:51:23 -0500, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I end up using a hacksaw and bench grinder
>
> That's how real men do it.
Us faux-men use a Dremel.
Nate Nagel
they make copper "pads" just for this kind of thing. Or if you had some
dead soft copper sheet thick enough it would only take a minute to make
some.
Mike Rocket J Squirrel
> * Still Just Me * wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:51:23 -0500, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I end up using a hacksaw and bench grinder
>>
>> That's how real men do it.
>
>
> Us faux-men use a Dremel.
>
Gnawing? My people gnaw.
AMuzi
Not too hard to sort. Standard DIN 985 m5x0.8 nuts have an
8mm head (metric is nice that way, wrench size = thread
advancement). Also common SAE 10-32 nuts are thinner depth
than standard m5 nuts.
thirty-six
To clamp the hex head screw and nut, I use steel. There is no marring
(I didn't use a microscope, don't care for concourse polish).