truing a wheel
Mark Cleary
to learn to true a wheel just because my nature of wanting to figure
things out. I have watch a few youtube videos and read a few things but
what are basics you need to get started.
The reason I ask is my own bike the wheels seem true maybe a bit off on
the rear but not much. I use the brake to give me a reference and the
pads get really close to the wheel before anything happens. They seem
almost on and just the torque of sitting on a bike could throw it off a
little.
Where to start?
--
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Roman Catholic Church
thirty-six
Adjust your hub bearing so that when sitting on the bike there is no
play in the bearing. Grab the rim and pull at it left to right, you
will feel the play if it needs adjusting out. If the lateral wobble
at the rear rim is less than 1/16" (1.6mm) you may want to leave it
alone. You may like the wobble at the front reduced to
1/32" (0.8mm). This is a very fine adjustment and unlikely worth
attempting any better. These measurements only really apply to
racing bikes and you can double them up if you dont need the extra
fine braking a racer needs when riding in a tight group.
Things you need. Er... your hands, a nipple key(usually) and some
form of cement for the nipples such as soft wax or boiled linseed
oil.
The biggest challenge is knowing when to leave it alone. This is why
a nipple key is not always needed. Pull the spoke on the side the rim
needs to go and in a lot of cases this will take he wobble out of the
rim without resort to tools. It takes a strong pull to effect this so
dont be scared, you wont harm the wheel. It's a good idea to mark the
rim where you intend to adjust so that when you come to check the rim
for trueness after adjustment you can see exactly how your changes
have affected the rim position. It is a little easier if you use a
pointer than the brake blocks as your guide. A zip tie on a chainstay
will do.
If using a nipple key don't go chasing hgher spoke tension to improve
lateral stability of the rim, it wont happen. Do all your truing at
whatever tension you already have using no more than 1/4 turns on a
single nipple at a time. If you need to move a rim by nipple
adjustment, find the nearest spoke which is out of kilter as regards
tension with the rest and levelling it would correct the rim
position. If all the close spokes are balanced in tension then its
back to yanking on the spokes. Just grab one in the middle on the
side in which you want the rim to go and give a strong pull. You
should see the rim move over with your pull and return. Check the rim
for truenes in the area by turning the wheel back and forth by a 1/4
looking at one pointer. Rims respon differently, truing technique is
a feedback system. Keep your eye on the gap between your pointer and
the rim as you make your adjustments and continually revert to rocking
the rim to check around the adjustment. Small 1/4 turns will only
affect the quadrant of the wheel you are working but 1/2 turns and
bigger will affect the opposite quadrant, watch out for this.
Finish by applying a cement to the nipples, rub in soft wax such as
beeswax or paraffin wax or a drop of boiled linseed oil to the end of
the nipple. There are proprietary preparations which you can use if
you like specialist stuff, but remember you cant oil or wax a table
with it.
Nate Nagel
Norman
You can get your wheel to within tolerances that no tire
you can buy has with some mighty primitive tools. I use
a spoke wrench, something with a point (like a pencil, a
chopstick, a spoon handle), & a bicycle frame most of the
time.
Probably the most important thing is experience.
Jobst Brandt
> OK how difficult is this and just how much can you be off? I would
> like to learn to true a wheel just because my nature of wanting to
> figure things out. I have watch a few Utube videos and read a few
> things but what are basics you need to get started.
Not only true but build from parts or replace broken parts (spokes)
and rims. It is not a secret except here on this newsgroup.
> The reason I ask is my own bike the wheels seem true maybe a bit off
> on the rear but not much. I use the brake to give me a reference
> and the pads get really close to the wheel before anything happens.
> They seem almost on and just the torque of sitting on a bike could
> throw it off a little.
> Where to start?
You might be better off reading a terse and complete treatise on the
bicycle wheel at:
"the Bicycle Wheel" that you can get at most better bicycle shops and
http://tinyurl.com/yjygk8j
http://tinyurl.com/3d7a49
http://www.avocet.com/wheelbook/wheelbook.html
The descriptions in the book have been scrutinized by academia as well
as bicycle shops, however, only here on wreck.bike there are scoffers
who find the book to be all wrong, over the last 30 years. Most of
these write from the UK.
Jobst Brandt
datakoll
CONVERT !
Clive George
news:hdve4b$rkh$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
So far you've had the definitive answer (JB's recommendation of his book),
some helpful starts (spoke key, frame as truing guide) and Trevor's post.
The thing my dad taught me about truing is to loosen/tighten alternately and
without sudden changes. So if you've got a sideways diversion covering say
three spokes, maybe tighten 1/4, loosen 1/2, tighten 1/4 turn (assuming the
deviation is that way round).
With that basic idea, and Sheldon Brown's guide, I've done fairly well over
the years.
I like the spokey - the red plastic disc.
datakoll
i'd like build with sumathoz exotic nipples but....
hey take a brake right ?
thirty-six
> You might be better off reading a terse and complete treatise on the
> bicycle wheel at:
That has managed to confuse too many people already.
What was jim beam's mantra? You confused strength with stiffness, or
something like that.
You failed to address the interlace and the bowing of the spokes.
This is what causes lateral instability of the rim and this is what
causes breaking of the spokes at the elbow.. The action of stress
relieving the spokes is worthless as I've proved by running a rear
wheel for 43k miles without ever having the spokes overtensioned which
has remained true and shows no signs of failure, in the hub, spokes or
rim. This is with cheap galvanized spokes in a cheap hub with a
regular weight narrow and shallow rim (also cheap, at the time).
That book is a clear demonstration of how not to build a bicycle
wheel. Is results in a most unstable structure which will damage rims.
thirty-six
For truing a wheel which has been in service the standard Spokey is a
good choice. I dont think the general design is good enough as a
building tool even with the double decker jaw arrangement. It's a
'designed' tool and as such is not designed too well for use but good
for marketing with the large bright red disc suitable for a hanging
display. When this came out, there were no nipple keys on display in
the bike shop. You haad to ask and were shown a ring type or the
cyclo mini key. We knew there were other, building, tools available
but there wasn't the need, wheels were built well and it was only
because a soft rim got a heavy whack did it distort and the nipple key
was required.
Chalo
>
> When this came out, there were no nipple keys on display in
> the bike shop. You haad to ask and were shown a ring type or the
> cyclo mini key. We knew there were other, building, tools available
> but there wasn't the need, wheels were built well and it was only
> because a soft rim got a heavy whack did it distort and the nipple key
> was required.
Please tell me more about your home planet.
Chalo
AMuzi
Yes the world is rife with whackos and curmudgeons. Perhaps
the bulk of us forget to credit you. I found it valuable and
elucidating when I first read it long ago and it sells
steadily even down to today.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Ben C
> Ok how difficult is this
Not terribly.
> and just how much can you be off?
Good question, don't know.
> I would like to learn to true a wheel just because my nature of
> wanting to figure things out. I have watch a few youtube videos and
> read a few things but what are basics you need to get started.
No substitute for practice. Get an old wheel, take all the spokes out
and put them back in again, and true it up. Or just loosen them.
The only tip I have is don't over-correct.
> The reason I ask is my own bike the wheels seem true maybe a bit off on
> the rear but not much. I use the brake to give me a reference and the
> pads get really close to the wheel before anything happens. They seem
> almost on and just the torque of sitting on a bike could throw it off a
> little.
>
> Where to start?
I should leave your actual wheels alone since they sound like they're
fine and you might just make them worse.
Ozark Bicycle
I'm sure your kind words are not intended to gloss over the fact that
Brandt's book is badly in need of an updated edition to reflect the
reality of modern (stiffer) rims, lower spoke counts, 8/9/10 speed
spacing, etc.
Art Harris
> Ok how difficult is this and just how much can you be off? I would like
> to learn to true a wheel just because my nature of wanting to figure
> things out. I have watch a few youtube videos and read a few things but
> what are basics you need to get started.
Well, if you don't know what you're doing, it's very easy to make the
wheel worse. In addition to knowledge, a basic truing stand is helpful
although not essential.
The goal is a wheel that is perfectly round, laterally true, the rim
centered, and spokes properly tensioned.
"The Bicycle Wheel" is the definitive source from which I learned to
build and maintain my own wheels many years ago.
Sheldon Brown's website provides the basics of wheelbuilding and
truing.
See:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#tensioning
Art Harris
Mark Cleary
the brake pads an down to 2/32 of an inch or less, to the rim before
some slight rub on a pad. Then I just pull the spoke with my hands and
it is fine. I am not really concerned about my bike yet but the whole
idea of building a wheel seems to be like doing fret work on a guitar.
That I do all the time and small changes can have huge effects. The
process of starting from the parts to finish just has me interested.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
You can say that twice, twice. Jobst's book(and Gerd's book) are the 2
I started with while learning wheelbuilding in person with Mike Howard
many years ago. The books are good references but not brought down
from any mountain top. Nothing beats experience, seeing what works and
what doesn't, hand's on.
Art Harris
> I went down just for fun on my road bike and the wheels are true. I use
> the brake pads an down to 2/32 of an inch or less, to the rim before
> some slight rub on a pad. Then I just pull the spoke with my hands and
> it is fine.
>
Hmm, that doesn't sound right. Truing is accomplished by turning the
spoke nipples to vary tension.
Another trick is to pluck spokes one at a time, and note the pitch.
All spokes on one side of a rear wheel (and both sides of a front
wheel) should have close to the same pitch (unless the rim is
damaged).
> I am not really concerned about my bike yet but the whole
> idea of building a wheel seems to be like doing fret work on a guitar.
> That I do all the time and small changes can have huge effects. The
> process of starting from the parts to finish just has me interested.
>
Building a wheel from scratch is kind of fun. Unfortunately, it ends
up being more expensive to buy the individual parts than to buy a
complete wheel. But at least you can get exactly what you want. For
example, it's not easy to find a built wheel with 36 thin gauge butted
spokes these days.
Art Harris
dusto...@mac.com
(after the experts have, um, spoken):
With a spoke wrench that fits your spoke nipples, and a wheel you
don't need to ride, at least for the time being! <g>
Read your Sheldon and/or Jobst, Park Tools, etc. instructional
material, get a decent cheap truing stand, which makes finding "round"
a lot easier, and a place to use it, and dive in.
IMHO this is a good skill to have pending the day you pop a spoke
while out on a ride and, if the wheel goes way out of true, have at
least some "feel" IRT getting the wheel straight enough to roll
between the brake pads.
One small contribution, perhaps: one fine day, an "old hand" pushed a
piece of plain white paper ("typing paper" as it was known back then)
between rim and stand while I was building/truing. All the better
(contrast) to see by, my dear! --D-y
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Call me, I'll build one for ya. 15/16 for the rear, Revs for the
front.
thirty-six
> Mark Cleary wrote:
> > I went down just for fun on my road bike and the wheels are true. I use
> > the brake pads an down to 2/32 of an inch or less, to the rim before
> > some slight rub on a pad. Then I just pull the spoke with my hands and
> > it is fine.
>
> Hmm, that doesn't sound right. Truing is accomplished by turning the
> spoke nipples to vary tension.
It's not right, but that's the way it's done if the spokes are bowed
like 99.99% of all 27" bicycle wheels. Ignoring the books and doing
what works, works.
AMuzi
Principles of physics and trig have changed? I missed that.
Chalo
>
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure your kind words are not intended to gloss over the fact that
> > Brandt's book is badly in need of an updated edition to reflect the
> > reality of modern (stiffer) rims, lower spoke counts, 8/9/10 speed
> > spacing, etc.
>
> Principles of physics and trig have changed? I missed that.
You haven't been keeping up with your Rolfing, have you?
Chalo
Ozark Bicycle
No, but rims *have* changed, have they not? Stiffer rims are not good
candidates for Brandt's "tension as high as the rim will bear" as
outlined in his book, are they?
And, there are other examples - but you know that.
> I missed that.
I doubt you miss much, Andrew.
Jobst Brandt
The Rolf wheel was patented in 1890 in England by Lovelace. TREK
hasn't used or paid royalties for Rolf wheels since that discovery.
Jobst Brandt
thirty-six
They certainly show up his errors of construction. It is
particularly relevant to narrow high pressure rims which need the
lateral support of the spokes of which requires bow removal. More
spoke tension equals more rim compression which increases tendency to
buckling. This is particularly pertinent , sod it, CBA
Tom Sherman °_°
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
Tom Sherman °_°
Bal-lan Yen
scratch, than to learn by truing. If you just try to true out a
wobble, you can run into difficulties if you put too much work into
too few spokes and don't keep an eye on roundness. Also, you need to
learn how spokes "wind up" and how to crack and then back off the
nipples as they start to get really tight. And on an old wheel, they
may be a little fused.
It is much easier to do it on a stand, and you can use the cheapest of
stands with a separate rim gage, which will be more precise than even
the fanciest self centering stand.
When building a wheel, I find it best to slowly tighten the wheel into
round, using spokes on the side of the direction of centering. Once
it gets round and firm, you can finish centering by tightening and
loosening. Then tighten all the spokes equally, and repeat the
process. When it's "tight enough" you can stop.
JG
thirty-six
> It is far easier to learn how to true by building a wheel from
> scratch, than to learn by truing.
That'll probably waste six hours getting the first build together.
> If you just try to true out a
> wobble, you can run into difficulties if you put too much work into
> too few spokes and don't keep an eye on roundness.
Doing it wrong also applies to brand spanking new components which can
also present difficuties in building. Such as damaged nipples and
loose rim joints. This can give the beginner too much to think about.
> Also, you need to
> learn how spokes "wind up" and how to crack and then back off the
> nipples as they start to get really tight.
They only get overtight if you make them like that. They should not
crack, you are doing it wrong. Relieve spoke tension by yanking on
the rim when adjusting a nipple on a tight stainless spoke.
> And on an old wheel, they
> may be a little fused.
Or much confused as you are. There may be some form of cement there,
just give all nipples a half turn looser before starting to make sure
they are not seized. Apply Plus Gas or similar if corroded.
> It is much easier to do it on a stand,
Do it on a stage if you like, but your're not selling me a ticket.
> and you can use the cheapest of
> stands
The bike.
with a separate rim gage,
a length of string.
> which will be more precise than even
> the fanciest self centering stand.
>
> When building a wheel, I find it best to slowly tighten the wheel into
> round, using spokes on the side of the direction of centering. Once
> it gets round and firm, you can finish centering by tightening and
> loosening.
That's going backward. Why use a technique which puposely bactracks
your steps? This is wrong.
> Then tighten all the spokes equally, and repeat the
> process.
Why do it twice? Paid by the hour, need the work?
>When it's "tight enough" you can stop.
His wheel probably is tight enough.
This isn't about bike wheels, is it?
JG
> On 19 Nov, 06:13, Bal-lan Yen <byengin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is far easier to learn how to true by building a wheel from
> > scratch, than to learn by truing.
>
> That'll probably waste six hours getting the first build together.
Only if the OP isn't interested in learning.
Which he is.
> > If you just try to true out a
> > wobble, you can run into difficulties if you put too much work into
> > too few spokes and don't keep an eye on roundness.
>
> Doing it wrong also applies to brand spanking new components which can
> also present difficuties in building. Such as damaged nipples and
> loose rim joints. This can give the beginner too much to think about.
True. But you can take it all apart and start again. If you muck up
a wheel on your bike, you are out of luck.
> > Also, you need to
> > learn how spokes "wind up" and how to crack and then back off the
> > nipples as they start to get really tight.
>
> They only get overtight if you make them like that. They should not
> crack, you are doing it wrong. Relieve spoke tension by yanking on
> the rim when adjusting a nipple on a tight stainless spoke.
Interesting technique. I will have to give it a try, although it
sounds hard on the hands and will probably sent the truing stand
flying across the room.
> > And on an old wheel, they
> > may be a little fused.
>
> Or much confused as you are. There may be some form of cement there,
> just give all nipples a half turn looser before starting to make sure
> they are not seized. Apply Plus Gas or similar if corroded.
Glue is for people who can't crack nipples.
> > It is much easier to do it on a stand,
>
> Do it on a stage if you like, but your're not selling me a ticket.
And we care why?
> > and you can use the cheapest of
> > stands
>
> The bike.
Ridiculous. The bike is unsteady, has no reliable round or true
gages, and is difficult see. The cheapest stand is 10x better.
> with a separate rim gage,
>
> a length of string.
Uh, because you are measuring one side of the wheel against the other,
and one half against the other, you multiply any off-centering by 4
with a metal gage. A 1mm deviation from center becomes a 4mm gap at
the rim. You can get down to 100ths of a mm this way. Good luck
with string and a felt-tip. You'll be lucky to see a 1mm deviation.
> > which will be more precise than even
> > the fanciest self centering stand.
>
> > When building a wheel, I find it best to slowly tighten the wheel into
> > round, using spokes on the side of the direction of centering. Once
> > it gets round and firm, you can finish centering by tightening and
> > loosening.
>
> That's going backward. Why use a technique which puposely bactracks
> your steps? This is wrong.
No, it's faster. If you have a flat spot, you can get it round by
tightening and loosening a handful of spokes. If you insist on only
tighting, you have to work on the other 30 spokes. Good luck.
> > Then tighten all the spokes equally, and repeat the
> > process.
>
> Why do it twice? Paid by the hour, need the work?
Obviously the OP is not interested in a hack job. Feel free to stop
and pull out the glue tube if you can get away with it.
> >When it's "tight enough" you can stop.
>
> His wheel probably is tight enough.
>
> This isn't about bike wheels, is it?
It's about avoiding idiotic arguments.
thirty-six
> On Nov 19, 5:15 am, thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 19 Nov, 06:13, Bal-lan Yen <byengin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > It is far easier to learn how to true by building a wheel from
> > > scratch, than to learn by truing.
>
> > That'll probably waste six hours getting the first build together.
>
> Only if the OP isn't interested in learning.
> Which he is.
In which case you take a good wheel, which could be rescued friom the
scrap, a nipple key and penetrating oil.
Unwind all the nipples so that the spoke threads are showing and the
spokes are loose uder the weight of the wheel. This is where to start
your first lesson.
>
> > > If you just try to true out a
> > > wobble, you can run into difficulties if you put too much work into
> > > too few spokes and don't keep an eye on roundness.
>
> > Doing it wrong also applies to brand spanking new components which can
> > also present difficuties in building. Such as damaged nipples and
> > loose rim joints. This can give the beginner too much to think about.
>
> True. But you can take it all apart and start again. If you muck up
> a wheel on your bike, you are out of luck.
Salvage a scrap wheel and nobody cares. Plus the components are
proven. A light steel rim with 15swg straight spokes is best to learn
and also makes a darn good wheel if your not too fussed with poor rim
braking.
>
> > > Also, you need to
> > > learn how spokes "wind up" and how to crack and then back off the
> > > nipples as they start to get really tight.
>
> > They only get overtight if you make them like that. They should not
> > crack, you are doing it wrong. Relieve spoke tension by yanking on
> > the rim when adjusting a nipple on a tight stainless spoke.
>
> Interesting technique. I will have to give it a try, although it
> sounds hard on the hands and will probably sent the truing stand
> flying across the room.
It will only be hard if you are using an overly stiff rim. Gloves
are advisable when handling zinc plated spokes anyway and unless I am
certain that everything is de-greased, I would stilll wear gloves. If
you do your truing in a bike frame, it is sturdy enough to withstand
the clamping by the hand between the fork leg or seat stay (as long as
there is a bridge) and rim.
> > > and you can use the cheapest of
> > > stands
>
> > The bike.
>
> Ridiculous. The bike is unsteady, has no reliable round or true
> gages, and is difficult see. The cheapest stand is 10x better.
A gauge is only required for final truing, the rest of the work
including tensioning up can be done in the hands as long as the rule
of seven is applied to 32 and 36 spoke wheels.
>
> > with a separate rim gage,
>
> > a length of string.
>
> Uh, because you are measuring one side of the wheel against the other,
> and one half against the other, you multiply any off-centering by 4
> with a metal gage. A 1mm deviation from center becomes a 4mm gap at
> the rim. You can get down to 100ths of a mm this way. Good luck
> with string and a felt-tip. You'll be lucky to see a 1mm deviation.
A string can be used in the same way. Tie it onto a spoke, take it
around the rim and over the locknut, use a stick (pencil) to gauge the
distance to the rim close to you. with a cable marker (c-clip ) or
peice of tape you transfer this distance and mesure the other side.
This is exactly the same technique using accurate measuring equipment
costing pennies.
>
> > > which will be more precise than even
> > > the fanciest self centering stand.
>
> > > When building a wheel, I find it best to slowly tighten the wheel into
> > > round, using spokes on the side of the direction of centering. Once
> > > it gets round and firm, you can finish centering by tightening and
> > > loosening.
>
> > That's going backward. Why use a technique which puposely bactracks
> > your steps? This is wrong.
>
> No, it's faster. If you have a flat spot, you can get it round by
> tightening and loosening a handful of spokes. If you insist on only
> tighting, you have to work on the other 30 spokes. Good luck.
I dont get flat spots on new rims, you must be doing it all wrong.
Apply the rule of seven for 32 and 36 spoke wheels and you wont
neither unless determined to cock it up. It is faster to do the job
once, right.
JG
> On 20 Nov, 17:15, JG <j...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 19, 5:15 am, thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On 19 Nov, 06:13, Bal-lan Yen <byengin...@gmail.com> wrote:
Glad we are in agreement but for distinctions...
> > > with a separate rim gage,
>
> > > a length of string.
>
> > Uh, because you are measuring one side of the wheel against the other,
> > and one half against the other, you multiply any off-centering by 4
> > with a metal gage. A 1mm deviation from center becomes a 4mm gap at
> > the rim. You can get down to 100ths of a mm this way. Good luck
> > with string and a felt-tip. You'll be lucky to see a 1mm deviation.
>
> A string can be used in the same way. Tie it onto a spoke, take it
> around the rim and over the locknut, use a stick (pencil) to gauge the
> distance to the rim close to you. with a cable marker (c-clip ) or
> peice of tape you transfer this distance and mesure the other side.
> This is exactly the same technique using accurate measuring equipment
> costing pennies.
I thought you might be doing it this way and was going to call it a
big fail, but realized you might be measuring locknut to locknut and
getting a better reading. While you will get the 4x measure of the
deviation, the _length_ of the string only changes by about 1:6. So a
1mm difference will give a 2/3mm measure. Good luck with a piece of
tape.
I only picked up a dishing gage on sale later. I didn't see the need
becasue you can get pretty close just by reversing the wheel
regularly. (Which is why you don't need self-centering true
indicators.) But using a dishing tool you immediately appreciate how
wonderfully accurate and simple it is.
> > No, it's faster. If you have a flat spot, you can get it round by
> > tightening and loosening a handful of spokes. If you insist on only
> > tighting, you have to work on the other 30 spokes. Good luck.
>
> I dont get flat spots on new rims, you must be doing it all wrong.
> Apply the rule of seven for 32 and 36 spoke wheels and you wont
> neither unless determined to cock it up. It is faster to do the job
> once, right.
A flat, as in low, spot. Let me break it down. You have one over
tight spoke. You can A: loosen it (and adjust the near neighbors as
necessary) or B: tighten 35 other spokes. Which gives better value,
assuming you are getting paid?
Derk
> Most of these write from the UK.
These are the same people who drink beer at room temperature and enjoy pub
food. That should tell you something ;-)
Derk
thirty-six
>
> I thought you might be doing it this way and was going to call it a
> big fail, but realized you might be measuring locknut to locknut and
> getting a better reading. While you will get the 4x measure of the
> deviation, the _length_ of the string only changes by about 1:6. So a
> 1mm difference will give a 2/3mm measure. Good luck with a piece of
> tape.
The length of the string doesnt matter, the gap is measured with the
stick, the tape or clip, marks the distance on the stick for transfer.
> I only picked up a dishing gage on sale later. I didn't see the need
> becasue you can get pretty close just by reversing the wheel
> regularly. (Which is why you don't need self-centering true
> indicators.) But using a dishing tool you immediately appreciate how
> wonderfully accurate and simple it is.
I guess its biggest advantage is when checking a bunch of team wheels
after they have been in service to see that the rim has not shifted
left due to spoke settlement.
.
>
> > > No, it's faster. If you have a flat spot, you can get it round by
> > > tightening and loosening a handful of spokes. If you insist on only
> > > tighting, you have to work on the other 30 spokes. Good luck.
>
> > I dont get flat spots on new rims, you must be doing it all wrong.
> > Apply the rule of seven for 32 and 36 spoke wheels and you wont
> > neither unless determined to cock it up. It is faster to do the job
> > once, right.
>
> A flat, as in low, spot.
Doesn't happen with rule of seven tightening. If a spoke is already
tight out of order, you skip it. Using an electric screwdriver with
adjustable clutch takes out much of the thinking if you use it in
stages and so builds accurately repeatedly, even if the builder ids
half asleep.
> Let me break it down. You have one over
> tight spoke.
Never gets there.
> You can A: loosen it (and adjust the near neighbors as
> necessary) or B: tighten 35 other spokes. Which gives better value,
> assuming you are getting paid?
With electric screwdriver set to 1, stop nipples with finger nail. Go
around again (sevens) tightening at the top of the wheel. Lock the
interlace by spoke bending. Move up to 3, use rule of seven. Move to
4, rule of seven. Check rim is true. If not precise enough check
lateral position of interlace and correct all to same level. Move to
nipple key. Find any lower tension spokes out of pairs and bring up
tension to match partner. Test wheel for trueness. Any errors now
may be corrected by tugging the requied spoke to check the rim
displaces without excessive adjustment.. Go round the wheel once
marking the relevant tugged spokes which showed most benefit. Add 1/4
turn to each, if the rim has not corrected after this initial pass,
starting at the loosest. Check for true, check for even tension.
Final check on the interlace lateral position and the wheel is ready
for use, with a tyre. The actual tests for trueness take at most
twenty second if all is well. The wheel may indeed be finished after
the first check because the tension is already set by the
screwdriver. The only time I've had trouble is when I've reduced the
use of the screwdriver to two stages. It is possibly quicker to use a
nipple key which will easily spin in the fingers and have had some
practice with. I can use my little cyclo like this but it isn't
entirely comfortable so the initial winding up is best performed with
the nipple threading/driver tool of which I'm onto a mark 3 version of
a superlight picker/threader/driver design. This coupled with the
VAR type winged nipple tool should produced quicker results than the
powered kit with ultimate portability and reliability.
thirty-six
Two-row low nitogenous barley makes the best malt for mashing,
resulting in no protein haze hence no need for adjuncts and cold
filtering to remove haze after brewing as US brewers are required to
do with their cheaper six-row barley and rice recipes. Filtering
removes flavour so the resultand beer is hard chilled also at serving
to mask the lack of flavour. Colourants and fizz and a heavy dash of
marketing convince the drinker he is getting what he wants.
Tom Kunich
news:a4a68ef4-dd83-4b71...@x31g2000yqx.googlegroups.com...
Though I tend to agree with you the smaller breweries in the USA are making
German style beer at least as good as the best English beers. But yes the
crap that they pass off as beer from the larger breweries should embarrass
the company directors.
Jobst Brandt
>>>> Most of these write from the UK.
>>> These are the same people who drink beer at room temperature and
>>> enjoy pub food. That should tell you something.
>> Two-row low nitogenous barley makes the best malt for mashing,
>> resulting in no protein haze hence no need for adjuncts and cold
>> filtering to remove haze after brewing as US brewers are required
>> to do with their cheaper six-row barley and rice recipes.
>> Filtering removes flavour so the resultand beer is hard chilled
>> also at serving to mask the lack of flavour. Colourants and fizz
>> and a heavy dash of marketing convince the drinker he is getting
>> what he wants.
> Though I tend to agree with you the smaller breweries in the USA are
> making German style beer at least as good as the best English beers.
> But yes the crap that they pass off as beer from the larger
> breweries should embarrass the company directors.
More telling for me is the beer aisles at Safeway, one of the larger
international markets. Beer from small breweries occupy one half the
"shelf space" (in length) while major US brands get the rest and often
at a lower price. As I see it, from drinking the beers, the US beers
are for for people who don't like beer but want to get drunk while the
others, foreign and US, are for people who like the flavor of beer,
especially these brews.
You can hypothesize why the beers are segregated that way but it fits
my model well.
Jobst Brandt
Mark Cleary
after my 32 mile ride this afternoon a Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale.
What a great beer my favorite of all time. The Victory Hop Devil on tap
last Tuesday was also great. I better run and ride a few miles more
these are good beers. Don't let good beer go waste that is close to a sin.
Jobst Brandt
> Good beer no doubt is for those who enjoy flavor and taste. Right
> now after my 32 mile ride this afternoon a Sierra Nevada Celebration
> Ale. What a great beer my favorite of all time. The Victory Hop
> Devil on tap last Tuesday was also great. I better run and ride a
> few miles more these are good beers. Don't let good beer go waste
> that is close to a sin.
That is one of my favorite beers along with Fat Tire and others that
brewery produces. It should have been called "Flat Tire" for good
image and sound.
Jobst Brandt
thirty-six
I'm of the opinion that good live beer is one of the true lifeforce
foods. Like figs, dates, sugar cane, honey, olives, bananas, apples,
herrings, and jam doughnuts. OOps. Er almonds and walnuts, cherries
and rasberries. MMMmmm hungry.
thirty-six
So how many 20oz bottles does it take to fill a cyclist's saddlebag?
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Not the way you describe it. Have you really ever built a wheel? If
you have, do they really work? Roundness is first, has to be. If you
do tension first, then round, you will be overtensioning some spokes
as you lower high spots but you don't really know what the tension is
anyway?
thirty-six
On 21 Nov, 13:28, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> Not the way you describe it. Have you really ever built a wheel? If
> you have, do they really work? Roundness is first, has to be. If you
> do tension first, then round, you will be overtensioning some spokes
> as you lower high spots but you don't really know what the tension is
> anyway?
I've built many. They all worked and I've refined my build technique
to reduce error and speed work, still maintaining a reliable high
strength construction. Roundness is set by the spoke length and even
adjustment of nipples. Elbow the interlace, use rule of seven and
never over tighten. The tension of the spoke is felt in the torque
reaction of the screwdriver or nipple key. The check for balance in
spoke tension is done by lightly tugging at a single spoke in its
centre. A pair can be compared by prying apart sqeezing together or
tapping with the nipple key which is most useful for comparing around
the wheel. I dont ever overtension, I dont need to reverse a
nipple.
Derk
> Don't let good beer go waste that is close to a sin.
On the beer front we can't complain here: to the South there's Belgium with
small breweries and monasteries where specialty beers are being brewed, to
the East there's Germany and here in The Netherlands there are a few good
breweries too. When I visited friends in the U.K., I couldn't get used to
drinking warmish beer. I was very lucky my friend made his own beer and in
every closet of the house there where Beer kits from chemist Bootz and I
preferred that hoem made beer to the stuff I got in pubs (if these were ever
open, which is an entire different problem).
Derk
Ronko
mcle...@comcast.net says...
Boddington's is very smooth and creamy but lacks a bit of bite. The
Newcastle is quite good with more "bite". Perhaps someone knows of an
ale similiar to Poddington's but with more bite?
I foolishly bought Tecate on sale, the stuff is quite undrinkable.
thirty-six
Wrong pubs. The beer served should be at an appropriate temperature
for that beer. Real ale may indeed be served up to 18degC but this is
a very rare style of beer as most people demand bubbles and at this
temperature very little CO2 is held and so the sharpness or bite needs
to come from the grist and hops. If the drink is not balanced in
flavour it has probably been served at the incorrect temperature or
has lost condition in the cellar. Next time in the UK, pick up a
copy of the good beer guide which lists the CAMRA recommended real ale
pubs in England and Wales (maybe other parts of UK as well?). This is
a good starting point and there are many other good pubs not in their
listings. Contacting the local CAMRA group will improve your chances
of not missing out on some gems.
Dan O
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
Those Canadians sure know how to make beer, eh? I think the Guinness
made under license in Canada is even *better* that from across the
pond.
My favorites at this time are Guinness Stout, which is what it is
(obviously), the wonderfully balanced Bridgeport Ale (made in
Portland), and the very distinctive Rogue Dead Guy Ale (also made
locally).
While I always enjoy beer about as cold as I can get it, as the Dead
Guy Ale warms up toward room temperature, it takes on a new and
remarkably pleasing character.
Dan O
> In article <he7fjn$jf...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> mclear...@comcast.net says...
Try this: Chill your Tecate cans so they're really cold. Just barely
crack the pop-top opening - leaving it substantially horizontal like a
little trap door, but broken and ready to readily open all the way.
Now pour a little pile of salt onto the pop-top, and fill the
surrounding rim with fresh lemon juice. Now open the pop-top fully,
dropping the salt into the beer, (quickly, before it erupts) tip it up
so the lemon juice runs into the mix as you slam about two-thirds of
the 12 oz can in one pull. Repeat.
Michael Press
Derk <nob...@invalid.org> wrote:
Yes.
Room temperature will get you chilblains.
Pub food won't kill you.
--
Michael Press
thirty-six
> In article <4b0704be$0$12213$e4fe5...@dreader26.news.xs4all.nl>,
>
> Derk <nob...@invalid.org> wrote:
> > Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> > > Most of these write from the UK.
> > These are the same people who drink beer at room temperature and enjoy pub
> > food. That should tell you something ;-)
>
> Yes.
> Room temperature will get you chilblains.
> Pub food won't kill you.
Never heard of wool socks and long johns?
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Yikes, I'll take your word for it. The tension of the spoke is felt in
the torque reaction of the SCREWDRIVER(??) or nipple key....YGBSM.
Derk
> Pub food won't kill you.
I hope so, because the first time I was in the UK and had pubfood, I got
beef (and horrible huge peas) during the beginning of the BSE period.
Derk
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Just visit the UK in the winter where room temp is mostly about the
temp of good beer..IOW, cool to cold.
Derk
> Just visit the UK in the winter where room temp is mostly about the
> temp of good beer..IOW, cool to cold.
Good idea! Then I'll be able to visit the places that James May and Oz Clark
recommended in their TV series in which they traveled through Britain with a
Rolsl and a caravan, visiting breweries, distilleries and pubs.
See:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-1109724/The-booze-brothers-
Why-James-May-Oz-Clarke-drinking-Britain.html
Derk