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Spoke Thread?
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Ron Hardin
Jan 23, 2012, 3:48:12 PM1/23/12
to
I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
cut and thread them with the right sized die
What thread do spokes have?
--
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
cut and thread them with the right sized die
What thread do spokes have?
--
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
AMuzi
Jan 23, 2012, 3:58:02 PM1/23/12
to
Ron Hardin wrote:
> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> What thread do spokes have?
56tpi and the material is sized for a rolled thread.
> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> What thread do spokes have?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Ian Field
Jan 23, 2012, 4:37:10 PM1/23/12
to
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:4F1DC7...@mindspring.com...
know what the present day threads are.
Chalo
Jan 24, 2012, 2:49:03 AM1/24/12
to
AMuzi wrote:
>
> Ron Hardin wrote:
> >
> > I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> > long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> > cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> > What thread do spokes have?
>
> 56tpi and the material is sized for a rolled thread.
#2-56 nuts seem to fit okay on 2.0mm spokes, but real #2-56 threads
>
> Ron Hardin wrote:
> >
> > I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> > long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> > cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> > What thread do spokes have?
>
> 56tpi and the material is sized for a rolled thread.
are a little fatter when I have measured them. I haven't tried
tightening #2 nuts up on spokes, but I reckon the result would be
about the same as using 2.0mm nipples on 1.8mm spokes: They begin to
take tension, then the threads shear off.
Chalo
DougC
Jan 24, 2012, 4:32:48 AM1/24/12
to
threads usually are rolled--not cut with a die.
There was a debate a while back about why exactly that was, and if the
differences between rolling vs. cutting would be significant in the end
result.
One thing I do know for certain: it is difficult to take a normal
thread-cutting die and keep it centered for more than 2 or 3 diameters,
without a special setup to hold everything straight and centered.
Rolling a thread does not have this problem, since the rolling dies do
the forming from the outer diameter anyway.
AMuzi
Jan 24, 2012, 1:32:31 PM1/24/12
to
>> Ron Hardin wrote:
>>> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
>>> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
>>> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>>> What thread do spokes have?
>>> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
>>> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
>>> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>>> What thread do spokes have?
> AMuzi wrote:
>> 56tpi and the material is sized for a rolled thread.
>> 56tpi and the material is sized for a rolled thread.
Chalo wrote:
> #2-56 nuts seem to fit okay on 2.0mm spokes, but real #2-56 threads
> are a little fatter when I have measured them. I haven't tried
> tightening #2 nuts up on spokes, but I reckon the result would be
> about the same as using 2.0mm nipples on 1.8mm spokes: They begin to
> take tension, then the threads shear off.
An SAE #2 is 0.086". I don't know what the raised actual
> #2-56 nuts seem to fit okay on 2.0mm spokes, but real #2-56 threads
> are a little fatter when I have measured them. I haven't tried
> tightening #2 nuts up on spokes, but I reckon the result would be
> about the same as using 2.0mm nipples on 1.8mm spokes: They begin to
> take tension, then the threads shear off.
thread of an 0.080" spoke should be but I just measured
0.086" (both Hoshi and DT) so cutting a thread on a 2mm
spoke seems pointless with standard 2mm nipples.
DougC
Jan 25, 2012, 6:18:24 AM1/25/12
to
could find) the class of fit for bicycle spokes and nipples. Just saying
it's "#2-56" isn't really enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_thread#Classes_of_fit
The class of fit is the looseness that a screw has inside its threaded
hole. Both the screw (spoke end) and the threaded hole (nipple) can
either be cut oversize, undersize or on-size. The difference between
these is the fit.
For example, this page at Enco (machine tools & supplies) shows four
different #2-56 spiral-point taps in H1, H2, H3 and H5 fit.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMK32?PARTPG=INSRAR2
Dies can be made in specific fits, or you can get a split die that is
adjustable cross a range of fits, and has to be adjusted through
trial-and-error on test pieces of metal.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=314-1006&PMPXNO=942442
?
thirty-six
Jan 25, 2012, 6:56:44 AM1/25/12
to
On Jan 24, 9:32 am, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> On 1/24/2012 1:49 AM, Chalo wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > AMuzi wrote:
>
> >> Ron Hardin wrote:
>
> >>> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> >>> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> >>> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> >>> What thread do spokes have?
>
> >> 56tpi and the material is sized for a rolled thread.
>
> > #2-56 nuts seem to fit okay on 2.0mm spokes, but real #2-56 threads
> > are a little fatter when I have measured them. I haven't tried
> > tightening #2 nuts up on spokes, but I reckon the result would be
> > about the same as using 2.0mm nipples on 1.8mm spokes: They begin to
> > take tension, then the threads shear off.
>
> > Chalo
>
> #2-56 is the actual size for normal bicycle spokes now, but spoke
> threads usually are rolled--not cut with a die.
>
> There was a debate a while back about why exactly that was, and if the
> differences between rolling vs. cutting would be significant in the end
> result.
Cost to the manufacturer is always significant.
> On 1/24/2012 1:49 AM, Chalo wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > AMuzi wrote:
>
> >> Ron Hardin wrote:
>
> >>> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> >>> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> >>> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> >>> What thread do spokes have?
>
> >> 56tpi and the material is sized for a rolled thread.
>
> > #2-56 nuts seem to fit okay on 2.0mm spokes, but real #2-56 threads
> > are a little fatter when I have measured them. I haven't tried
> > tightening #2 nuts up on spokes, but I reckon the result would be
> > about the same as using 2.0mm nipples on 1.8mm spokes: They begin to
> > take tension, then the threads shear off.
>
> > Chalo
>
> #2-56 is the actual size for normal bicycle spokes now, but spoke
> threads usually are rolled--not cut with a die.
>
> There was a debate a while back about why exactly that was, and if the
> differences between rolling vs. cutting would be significant in the end
> result.
>
> One thing I do know for certain: it is difficult to take a normal
> thread-cutting die and keep it centered for more than 2 or 3 diameters,
> without a special setup to hold everything straight and centered.
>
> Rolling a thread does not have this problem, since the rolling dies do
> the forming from the outer diameter anyway.
The dies on hand-driven machines are adjustable, so the thread is
> One thing I do know for certain: it is difficult to take a normal
> thread-cutting die and keep it centered for more than 2 or 3 diameters,
> without a special setup to hold everything straight and centered.
>
> Rolling a thread does not have this problem, since the rolling dies do
> the forming from the outer diameter anyway.
eased in a number of passes to fit the nipple's thread. As fit is
assesed by hand, it will be correct for hand assembly, whether the die
is for 1.8mm or 15swg, or for 2.0mm or 14swg. I don't know if the
larger gauges are so close in sizing between English and European
gauges but AFAIK the regular bicycle gauges can use either a European
or English specified die for either thread without problem, just make
sure that you don't mix your nipples and that your test nipple is
taken from the box you are going to use.
kolldata
Jan 25, 2012, 9:22:55 AM1/25/12
to
>
> Dies can be made in specific fits, or you can get a split die that is
> adjustable cross a range of fits, and has to be adjusted through
> trial-and-error on test pieces of metal.http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=314-1006&PMPX...
> Dies can be made in specific fits, or you can get a split die that is
> adjustable cross a range of fits, and has to be adjusted through
>
> ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
eeek good the local hardware store doesn't stock that.....
grab ur magnifing glass and strong light. Clean spoke elbows with
CHOH. Examine spoke elbows. See lines ? Lines are cracks. Old spokes
equal lines ? Not always. Many bikes are bought but never ridden.
A primary use for an old spoke is bearking the threaded end. Spoke is
then useful for dribbling lube directly onto the intrended surface
like an exterior channel needle. This is an English invention. Gotta
give credit right ?
Place nozzle Finish Line Dry Lube with Wax onto the upper shaft, lower
point onto the driveway and squeeze after shaking violently.
lime...@gmail.com
Jan 25, 2012, 11:16:20 AM1/25/12
to
On Jan 23, 2:48 pm, Ron Hardin <rhhar...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> What thread do spokes have?
> --
> rhhar...@mindspring.com
> I have a lot of spokes off old wheels that are too
> long for my current wheels. It would be nice to
> cut and thread them with the right sized die
>
> What thread do spokes have?
> --
>
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Here is a die:-
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Like this one, for $6.39http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s417.htm
Hope this helps you.
Lewis
*****
kolldata
Jan 25, 2012, 8:46:58 PM1/25/12
to
lewis, that's ok but how use a cutting die when spoke threads are
rolled not cut ?
hmmmm hardware store ubolts same ?
does the suggested die deal with that difference ?
rolled not cut ?
hmmmm hardware store ubolts same ?
does the suggested die deal with that difference ?
AMuzi
Jan 25, 2012, 1:53:14 PM1/25/12
to
However, no die can cut 0.086" threads on a 0.080" wire.
DougC
Jan 26, 2012, 2:50:27 PM1/26/12
to
full strength in a typical application.
John B.
Jan 26, 2012, 8:21:26 PM1/26/12
to
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:50:27 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
wrote:
Quite the contrary. Any engineering book will tell you (and furnish
the calcs) that:
"The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
external threads stripping strength."
and further that:
" Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
See http://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm
for more details
--
John B.
wrote:
the calcs) that:
"The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
external threads stripping strength."
and further that:
" Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
See http://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm
for more details
--
John B.
thirty-six
Jan 27, 2012, 6:28:09 AM1/27/12
to
On Jan 27, 1:21 am, John B. <johnbsloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:50:27 -0600, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com>
> >>>http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=314-1006&PMPX...
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:50:27 -0600, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com>
>
> >>> ?
>
> >> All good points.
>
> >> However, no die can cut 0.086" threads on a 0.080" wire.
>
> >Yea,,, but it was never shown that large an OD was necessary to achieve
> >full strength in a typical application.
>
> Quite the contrary. Any engineering book will tell you (and furnish
> the calcs) that:
>
> "The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
> and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
> external threads stripping strength."
>
> and further that:
>
> " Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
> proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
> percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
>
> Seehttp://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm
>
> for more details
Spokes arn't bolts! !
> >>> ?
>
> >> All good points.
>
> >> However, no die can cut 0.086" threads on a 0.080" wire.
>
> >Yea,,, but it was never shown that large an OD was necessary to achieve
> >full strength in a typical application.
>
> Quite the contrary. Any engineering book will tell you (and furnish
> the calcs) that:
>
> "The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
> and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
> external threads stripping strength."
>
> and further that:
>
> " Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
> proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
> percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
>
> Seehttp://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm
>
> for more details
DougC
Jan 27, 2012, 5:08:02 PM1/27/12
to
On 1/26/2012 7:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Quite the contrary. Any engineering book will tell you (and furnish
> the calcs) that:
>
> "The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
> and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
> external threads stripping strength."
>
> and further that:
>
> " Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
> proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
> percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
>
> See http://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm
>
> for more details
>
>
>
> --
> John B.
Yea but no.
>
> Quite the contrary. Any engineering book will tell you (and furnish
> the calcs) that:
>
> "The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
> and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
> external threads stripping strength."
>
> and further that:
>
> " Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
> proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
> percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
>
> See http://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm
>
> for more details
>
>
>
> --
> John B.
Assuming that the wire is ~.080", and the measured spoke thread OD is
.086",
then this chart-
http://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm
shows that for a minimum 2A fit, you'd need an OD of .0813",
and for a minimum 3A fit, you'd need .0819".
So the cut threads would not be .006" under, they'd only be .0019" under
at most, to meet the minimum.
No matter which minor diameter you use (.0635" or .0641") the cut
threads are still going to end up way over 60% of the listed height, for
either fit. -Over 90% for either, if I did it right...
johnbs...@gmail.com
Jan 27, 2012, 9:30:44 PM1/27/12
to
On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:08:02 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
wrote:
What "Yea but no"? Just work the formula and see what the strength of
the thread is.
You will usually find that in order to get the thing to screw together
the minor diameter of the male part will need to be pretty close to
the minor diameter that the chart mentions. If the major diameter is
0.080 then the height of the thread will be about 15% less then that
of that shown as the minimum standard diameter, and 27% using the
basic major diameter.
You can work out whether thread strength is directly proportional to
the height of the thread using the formula in the site I mentioned.
Cheers
John B.
wrote:
the thread is.
You will usually find that in order to get the thing to screw together
the minor diameter of the male part will need to be pretty close to
the minor diameter that the chart mentions. If the major diameter is
0.080 then the height of the thread will be about 15% less then that
of that shown as the minimum standard diameter, and 27% using the
basic major diameter.
You can work out whether thread strength is directly proportional to
the height of the thread using the formula in the site I mentioned.
Cheers
John B.
thirty-six
Jan 27, 2012, 10:17:31 PM1/27/12
to
On Jan 28, 2:30 am, johnbsloc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:08:02 -0600, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com>
I think that when 14 turns of thread are involved rather than the four
typically seen with a nut then there is some larger tolerance in fit
applicable. In practice cut spoke threads have worked well with
standard nipples. It also allows a more directly tenacious stickum to
be used for instant effect. In fact I'd say its a condition of being
able to effectively use tubular mounting cement with ease and speed as
a thread-binder of spoke nipples.
Cool !
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:08:02 -0600, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 1/26/2012 7:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> >> Quite the contrary. Any engineering book will tell you (and furnish
> >> the calcs) that:
>
> >> "The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
> >> and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
> >> external threads stripping strength."
>
> >> and further that:
>
> >> " Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
> >> proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
> >> percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
>
> >> Seehttp://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 1/26/2012 7:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> >> Quite the contrary. Any engineering book will tell you (and furnish
> >> the calcs) that:
>
> >> "The variation in the dimensions of the thread, (such as major, pitch
> >> and minor diameters) has a significant effect on both internal and
> >> external threads stripping strength."
>
> >> and further that:
>
> >> " Studies have shown that for threaded assemblies of usual
> >> proportions, tap-drill size is relatively unimportant so long as the
> >> percentage of thread height is greater than 60%"
>
typically seen with a nut then there is some larger tolerance in fit
applicable. In practice cut spoke threads have worked well with
standard nipples. It also allows a more directly tenacious stickum to
be used for instant effect. In fact I'd say its a condition of being
able to effectively use tubular mounting cement with ease and speed as
a thread-binder of spoke nipples.
Cool !
johnbs...@gmail.com
Jan 28, 2012, 5:34:39 AM1/28/12
to
factor in bolt failure. But we were talking about the strength of
threads.If you are assembling them with some sort of "tenacious
stickum" like JB Weld then all bets are off.
Cheers
John B.
thirty-six
Jan 28, 2012, 7:11:24 AM1/28/12
to
soft brass nipple is a factor in the success of the connection in
whether or not the nipple holds.
> But we were talking about the strength of
> threads.If you are assembling them with some sort of "tenacious
> stickum" like JB Weld then all bets are off.
it to stick tub's on. IIRC the best recipes for nipple holding
cement were said to contain some resin. The last professional
wheelbuilder I knew that would have likely concocted his own spoke
cement passed on about 15 years ago. The elders of the trade now will
use tubular cement (not the gutta type) or a thickened linseed oil.
kolldata
Jan 28, 2012, 10:29:25 AM1/28/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
used 3 types spoke fixers in my brief wheel biulding life...
> - Show quoted text -
a white fluid from ? worthless or worser
red loctite spoke fixer from DT ? excellent worth 3 adjustments if
turning is kept to a minimum tight tight on first app
regular store linseed...not tight but BTN...prevents corrosion and
lubes for pennies AND YOU CAN EAT IT ! in natural form off course...
how does one doctor thicken linseed ?
the formullah please !
thirty-six
Jan 28, 2012, 2:30:13 PM1/28/12
to
are not buying boiled linseed oil. With the boiled just leave the
container you are going to work from open until it reaches a gummy
consistency.. Sunlight and heat work best.
kolldata
Jan 28, 2012, 2:38:12 PM1/28/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
yup right off the top:
> - Show quoted text -
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&sugexp=pfwl&tok=jIdeb4A3tAEs_oiYHpAfSQ&cp=13&gs_id=1e&xhr=t&q=walnut+shells&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&pbx=1&oq=walnut+shells&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e616f04cfd1bf78a&biw=960&bih=512
first thought was uh gypsum or AHA! BENTONITE...
oh yeah the white fluid ? bentonite...
kolldata
Jan 28, 2012, 2:44:59 PM1/28/12
to
>
> first thought was uh gypsum or AHA! BENTONITE...
> oh yeah the white fluid ? bentonite...- Hide quoted text -
> first thought was uh gypsum or AHA! BENTONITE...
>
> - Show quoted text -
hmmmm I was considering a video camera.....
> - Show quoted text -
first, a cannibal's cauldron....maybe i can borrow one from The
Pirhana....
johnbs...@gmail.com
Jan 28, 2012, 7:55:16 PM1/28/12
to
distance from the threads...
Out of curiosity have you some figures for the minimum depth of
threads on a spoke that will hold?
>> But we were talking about the strength of
>> threads.If you are assembling them with some sort of "tenacious
>> stickum" like JB Weld then all bets are off.
>
>No, that probably would not be appropriate, I certainly wouldn't use
>it to stick tub's on. IIRC the best recipes for nipple holding
>cement were said to contain some resin. The last professional
>wheelbuilder I knew that would have likely concocted his own spoke
>cement passed on about 15 years ago. The elders of the trade now will
>use tubular cement (not the gutta type) or a thickened linseed oil.
John B.
kolldata
Jan 28, 2012, 8:21:05 PM1/28/12
to
thread strength is rumored highly variable in generic spokes served up
by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
lots of junk metal no one will go near......
arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
while but not forever butbutbut what abt the nipple or insert angle
from hub or wether ura maniac or load up at Wal then blow down the
pike with a tail wind or....
gotta go all the way in less two threads for additional corrections
by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
lots of junk metal no one will go near......
arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
while but not forever butbutbut what abt the nipple or insert angle
from hub or wether ura maniac or load up at Wal then blow down the
pike with a tail wind or....
gotta go all the way in less two threads for additional corrections
DougC
Jan 28, 2012, 11:17:28 PM1/28/12
to
No matter which minor diameter you use (.0635" or .0641") the cut
threads are still going to end up way over 60% of the listed height, for
either fit. -Over 90% for either, if I did it right...
outer edge of a ~.082" diameter spoke thread.... On spokes that are made
from plain drawn wire, that has ~.001" variances all over its length and
diameter anyway. It ain't worth worrying about, especially if the spokes
are turned ~3x diameters into the nipples anyway.
thirty-six
Jan 29, 2012, 4:17:48 AM1/29/12
to
On Jan 29, 12:55 am, johnbsloc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 04:11:24 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 04:11:24 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
steel rimmed wheel, has a maximum insertion depth of 16 turns with the
threads disappearing at 14 turns. Experience tells me the normal safe
limit is about 11, although I have had spokes hold at 7 turns, not
sure which thread but it's more likely to have been 15swg than 14swg.
I suppose that was my earliest experience showing spokes didn't need
to be ping tight. .
thirty-six
Jan 29, 2012, 4:25:50 AM1/29/12
to
On Jan 29, 1:21 am, kolldata <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> thread strength is rumored highly variable in generic spokes served up
> by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
> lots of junk metal no one will go near......
>
> arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
>
> but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
> while but not forever
I'd expect a 14swg to hold well on 5 turns of thread with a hard
> thread strength is rumored highly variable in generic spokes served up
> by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
> lots of junk metal no one will go near......
>
> arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
>
> but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
> while but not forever
setting cement, but it's not a desirable state of affairs.
> butbutbut what abt the nipple or insert angle
> from hub or wether ura maniac or load up at Wal then blow down the
> pike with a tail wind or....
turns.
johnbs...@gmail.com
Jan 29, 2012, 6:04:01 AM1/29/12
to
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 01:25:50 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>On Jan 29, 1:21 am, kolldata <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> thread strength is rumored highly variable in generic spokes served up
>> by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
>> lots of junk metal no one will go near......
>>
>> arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
>>
>> but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
>> while but not forever
>
>I'd expect a 14swg to hold well on 5 turns of thread with a hard
>setting cement, but it's not a desirable state of affairs.
>
Then either they are really loose threads or the nipples are very
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>On Jan 29, 1:21 am, kolldata <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> thread strength is rumored highly variable in generic spokes served up
>> by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
>> lots of junk metal no one will go near......
>>
>> arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
>>
>> but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
>> while but not forever
>
>I'd expect a 14swg to hold well on 5 turns of thread with a hard
>setting cement, but it's not a desirable state of affairs.
>
weak. The usual calculation for minimum thread engagement is 1.5 X
diameter. Based on that formula that would be about 7 turns. On the
other hand I have seen 1 diameter used and that is just about your 5
turns.
>> butbutbut what abt the nipple or insert angle
>> from hub or wether ura maniac or load up at Wal then blow down the
>> pike with a tail wind or....
>
>With a hard setting cement or possibly soldered I'd try my luck on 4.5
>turns.
>
>>
>> gotta go all the way in less two threads for additional corrections
John B.
johnbs...@gmail.com
Jan 29, 2012, 6:33:12 AM1/29/12
to
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:17:28 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
Are you using the normal tap drill (#51) size in your calculations?
Since you are reference 0.0635./0.0641 apparently as the minor
diameter in your calculation and a #51 drill is 0.067"...
>
>What we're talking about here is less than .002" missing off the very
>outer edge of a ~.082" diameter spoke thread.... On spokes that are made
>from plain drawn wire, that has ~.001" variances all over its length and
>diameter anyway. It ain't worth worrying about, especially if the spokes
>are turned ~3x diameters into the nipples anyway.
Cheers
John B.
Since you are reference 0.0635./0.0641 apparently as the minor
diameter in your calculation and a #51 drill is 0.067"...
>
>What we're talking about here is less than .002" missing off the very
>outer edge of a ~.082" diameter spoke thread.... On spokes that are made
>from plain drawn wire, that has ~.001" variances all over its length and
>diameter anyway. It ain't worth worrying about, especially if the spokes
>are turned ~3x diameters into the nipples anyway.
John B.
DougC
Jan 29, 2012, 7:31:01 AM1/29/12
to
The only specs I was referencing were the ones for external thread fit
given here-
http://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm
internal threads is a different chart-
http://www.engineersedge.com/thread_strength/internal_screw_threads_chart.htm
thirty-six
Jan 29, 2012, 9:28:49 AM1/29/12
to
On Jan 29, 11:04 am, johnbsloc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 01:25:50 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 01:25:50 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
>
> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >On Jan 29, 1:21 am, kolldata <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> thread strength is rumored highly variable in generic spokes served up
> >> by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
> >> lots of junk metal no one will go near......
>
> >> arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
>
> >> but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
> >> while but not forever
>
> >I'd expect a 14swg to hold well on 5 turns of thread with a hard
> >setting cement, but it's not a desirable state of affairs.
>
> Then either they are really loose threads or the nipples are very
> weak.
Yes, brass nipples. It's nigh on impossible to get steel nipples
> >On Jan 29, 1:21 am, kolldata <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> thread strength is rumored highly variable in generic spokes served up
> >> by generic LBS franchise shops buying, ahhhhexcuse, purchasing large
> >> lots of junk metal no one will go near......
>
> >> arrrrgfggg gunfragus muckwa EXPLETIVE DLETED....
>
> >> but with DT and DT's higher qualities uh 3.5 threads will hold for a
> >> while but not forever
>
> >I'd expect a 14swg to hold well on 5 turns of thread with a hard
> >setting cement, but it's not a desirable state of affairs.
>
> Then either they are really loose threads or the nipples are very
> weak.
today, that could lead to silly wheelbuiding with as much tension in
the spokes as the rim can bear, and you know where that ends up.
> The usual calculation for minimum thread engagement is 1.5 X
> diameter. Based on that formula that would be about 7 turns. On the
> other hand I have seen 1 diameter used and that is just about your 5
> turns.
must be in the wrong group?
kolldata
Jan 29, 2012, 10:18:22 AM1/29/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
what yawl get involved in with minimal threading is a lot of work
> - Show quoted text -
wasted when the spoke snaps out 400 yards down the road esp for a
commuter.
Commuters should only use correctly set, quality brand name spokes.
DougC
Jan 29, 2012, 1:06:58 PM1/29/12
to
On 1/29/2012 8:28 AM, thirty-six wrote:
> .......
>
>
Some grades of brass aren't necessarily that much weaker than some
grades of stainless/carbon steel would be. Lots of references online
about machinery construction will note this.
One from-
http://machinedesign.com/article/comparing-brass-versus-stainless-steel-threaded-inserts-1117
"... (brass) Possesses good strength and actually overlaps the tensile
strength of 12L14 low-carbon steel. When designers must make a threaded
part stronger, a simple increase in (brass) thread length is often
adequate — this can avoid the higher cost of stainless steel. ..."
With the production machinery that makes the nipples, the brass might
work better than steel or other metals.
> .......
> Yes, brass nipples. It's nigh on impossible to get steel nipples
> today, ...
>
>
Some grades of brass aren't necessarily that much weaker than some
grades of stainless/carbon steel would be. Lots of references online
about machinery construction will note this.
One from-
http://machinedesign.com/article/comparing-brass-versus-stainless-steel-threaded-inserts-1117
"... (brass) Possesses good strength and actually overlaps the tensile
strength of 12L14 low-carbon steel. When designers must make a threaded
part stronger, a simple increase in (brass) thread length is often
adequate — this can avoid the higher cost of stainless steel. ..."
With the production machinery that makes the nipples, the brass might
work better than steel or other metals.
thirty-six
Jan 29, 2012, 1:33:23 PM1/29/12
to
On Jan 29, 6:06 pm, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> On 1/29/2012 8:28 AM, thirty-six wrote:
>
> > .......
> > Yes, brass nipples. It's nigh on impossible to get steel nipples
> > today, ...
>
> Some grades of brass aren't necessarily that much weaker than some
> grades of stainless/carbon steel would be. Lots of references online
> about machinery construction will note this.
>
> One from-http://machinedesign.com/article/comparing-brass-versus-stainless-ste...
> On 1/29/2012 8:28 AM, thirty-six wrote:
>
> > .......
> > Yes, brass nipples. It's nigh on impossible to get steel nipples
> > today, ...
>
> Some grades of brass aren't necessarily that much weaker than some
> grades of stainless/carbon steel would be. Lots of references online
> about machinery construction will note this.
>
>
> "... (brass) Possesses good strength and actually overlaps the tensile
> strength of 12L14 low-carbon steel. When designers must make a threaded
> part stronger, a simple increase in (brass) thread length is often
> adequate — this can avoid the higher cost of stainless steel. ..."
>
> With the production machinery that makes the nipples, the brass might
> work better than steel or other metals.
it was probably initially used because it was a known material and
> "... (brass) Possesses good strength and actually overlaps the tensile
> strength of 12L14 low-carbon steel. When designers must make a threaded
> part stronger, a simple increase in (brass) thread length is often
> adequate — this can avoid the higher cost of stainless steel. ..."
>
> With the production machinery that makes the nipples, the brass might
> work better than steel or other metals.
cheapest to process. The conformability of the brass thread being a
bonus in the early days of standardisation which of course had to
occur with bicycle spokes.
It is the shear strength of the material which is important in brass
nipples, the tensile strength is immaterial. Brass is adequate and
the choice was gunmetal (used for hubs, red brass) or yellow brass.
Bicycle nipples are made of the same stuff door knobs were, nothing
special, just yellow brass. There's not been any changes in a century
of use despite the tighter is righter brigade, just a little more
insertion depth to satisfy the foolhardy who think the universe
rotates around a hub stuck...
kolldata
Jan 29, 2012, 4:13:39 PM1/29/12
to
steel nipples inthere somewhere with an importer
used for taxi cycles ?
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=+taiwan+steel+bicycle+spoke+nipples&psj=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e616f04cfd1bf78a&biw=960&bih=512
used for taxi cycles ?
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=+taiwan+steel+bicycle+spoke+nipples&psj=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e616f04cfd1bf78a&biw=960&bih=512
AMuzi
Jan 29, 2012, 4:30:14 PM1/29/12
to
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
johnbs...@gmail.com
Jan 29, 2012, 6:53:33 PM1/29/12
to
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:31:01 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
Then you are assuming that a spoke doesn't use a connecting thread?
That although the connection is through a taper there is no wedging
effect that enlarges the nut?
You can't simply look at the thread form of the male device without
considering the mating female part. After all a normal threaded
attachment does not have 100% contact between the two parts. If you
don't factor the initial fit into your calculations you are not going
to get an accurate answer which is why the formula I mentioned is
used.
Cheers
John B.
That although the connection is through a taper there is no wedging
effect that enlarges the nut?
You can't simply look at the thread form of the male device without
considering the mating female part. After all a normal threaded
attachment does not have 100% contact between the two parts. If you
don't factor the initial fit into your calculations you are not going
to get an accurate answer which is why the formula I mentioned is
used.
Cheers
John B.
johnbs...@gmail.com
Jan 29, 2012, 7:01:25 PM1/29/12
to
failures - it is not surprising.
Think Lockheed Electra for an incentive to develop theories for
determining fatigue failures in aluminum :-)
>> >> butbutbut what abt the nipple or insert angle
>> >> from hub or wether ura maniac or load up at Wal then blow down the
>> >> pike with a tail wind or....
>>
>> >With a hard setting cement or possibly soldered I'd try my luck on 4.5
>> >turns.
>>
>> >> gotta go all the way in less two threads for additional corrections
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> John B.
John B.
kolldata
Jan 29, 2012, 9:28:35 PM1/29/12
to
On Jan 29, 2:30 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> kolldata wrote:
> > steel nipples inthere somewhere with an importer
> > used for taxi cycles ?
>
> >https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&output=search&s...
> kolldata wrote:
> > steel nipples inthere somewhere with an importer
> > used for taxi cycles ?
>
>
> an image search has some NSFW stuff in it.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
eyeyehahahhahaha NFSW ! steel nips were heavy maybe 16 grams ? more ?
> an image search has some NSFW stuff in it.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
spokes were sapim from late '70's not mating with local LBS or there
nipples , corroding with salt humidity pulling out unnngh beastly...
before Sheldon !
ahhhh DT !
national federation of sugar workers ! I am asshole deep in NFSW here
as they have fled south.
DougC
Jan 30, 2012, 5:16:47 AM1/30/12
to
Yea but nobody so far has been able to provide the actual thread fit
specification. Somewhere there is a number.
The thread fit is the space between external and mating internal
threads--and there is almost always space. Before you can go arguing
over thousandths of an inch, you have to know how many you need.
2A and 3A are common fit specs that many machine bolts use, and in the
case of a #2-56 thread with a 2A or a 3A fit, that .002" off the OD
isn't really going to matter much.
kolldata
Jan 30, 2012, 10:02:23 AM1/30/12
to
On Jan 30, 3:16 am, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> On 1/29/2012 5:53 PM, johnbsloc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:31:01 -0600, DougC<dcim...@norcom2000.com>
a hyena..
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=thread+micrometer+gauge+bicycle+spoke+nipples&psj=1&oq=thread+micrometer+gauge+bicycle+spoke+nipples&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=4389l94610l0l97242l73l47l0l0l0l4l6027l20428l7-1.0.4l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e616f04cfd1bf78a&biw=1152&bih=614
> On 1/29/2012 5:53 PM, johnbsloc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:31:01 -0600, DougC<dcim...@norcom2000.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> I did not note any tap drill at all, since a spoke has external threads.
>
> >> The only specs I was referencing were the ones for external thread fit
> >> given here-
> >>http://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm
>
> >> internal threads is a different chart-
> >>http://www.engineersedge.com/thread_strength/internal_screw_threads_c...
>
> >> I did not note any tap drill at all, since a spoke has external threads.
>
> >> The only specs I was referencing were the ones for external thread fit
> >> given here-
> >>http://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm
>
> >> internal threads is a different chart-
>
> > Then you are assuming that a spoke doesn't use a connecting thread?
> > That although the connection is through a taper there is no wedging
> > effect that enlarges the nut?
>
> > You can't simply look at the thread form of the male device without
> > considering the mating female part. ...
>
> Yea but nobody so far has been able to provide the actual thread fit
> specification. Somewhere there is a number.
>
> The thread fit is the space between external and mating internal
> threads--and there is almost always space. Before you can go arguing
> over thousandths of an inch, you have to know how many you need.
>
> 2A and 3A are common fit specs that many machine bolts use, and in the
> case of a #2-56 thread with a 2A or a 3A fit, that .002" off the OD
> isn't really going to matter much.- Hide quoted text -
> > Then you are assuming that a spoke doesn't use a connecting thread?
> > That although the connection is through a taper there is no wedging
> > effect that enlarges the nut?
>
> > You can't simply look at the thread form of the male device without
> > considering the mating female part. ...
>
> Yea but nobody so far has been able to provide the actual thread fit
> specification. Somewhere there is a number.
>
> The thread fit is the space between external and mating internal
> threads--and there is almost always space. Before you can go arguing
> over thousandths of an inch, you have to know how many you need.
>
> 2A and 3A are common fit specs that many machine bolts use, and in the
> case of a #2-56 thread with a 2A or a 3A fit, that .002" off the OD
>
> - Show quoted text -
numbers are only curiosities in this area....you could speak Greek to
> - Show quoted text -
a hyena..
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=thread+micrometer+gauge+bicycle+spoke+nipples&psj=1&oq=thread+micrometer+gauge+bicycle+spoke+nipples&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=4389l94610l0l97242l73l47l0l0l0l4l6027l20428l7-1.0.4l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e616f04cfd1bf78a&biw=1152&bih=614
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