Does nobody care about two-speed hubs?

[jbeattie]

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireless-shifting-inside-and-11-gears-on-the-outside/

https://granfondo-cycling.com/classified-geared-hub-2020-test-2/

The Classified Powershift hub keeps coming up on my news feeds. https://classified-cycling.cc/en/powershift-hub I'm going to get one for my 2X gravel bike so I can have 44 gears -- and get an Excel spreadsheet that I can tape to my stem so I know what gear to pick, or maybe an app for my iPhone.

About $2700 USD, but it does come with a pair of CF wheels and a proprietary cassette. I feel sorry for the early adopters when the company goes belly-up, and those cassettes are no longer available. At least the SRAM boat-anchor IGH three speed used a standard cassette body.

The two-speed hub idea, however, is not too crazy -- and more attractive than the CeramicSpeed cheese grater. https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

Looks interesting but what problem does it solve. Everything is proprietary. Shifting in front seems to be a real problem. You can buy one here:

https://www.rosebikes.nl/rose-backroad-classified-2x11-2696931?product_shape=evil+pepper+green

Lou

[sms]

Add a Schlumpf drive and go to 88.
<http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/schlumpf-drive.html>.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/10/2021 11:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireless-shifting-inside-and-11-gears-on-the-outside/
>
> https://granfondo-cycling.com/classified-geared-hub-2020-test-2/
>
> The Classified Powershift hub keeps coming up on my news feeds. https://classified-cycling.cc/en/powershift-hub I'm going to get one for my 2X gravel bike so I can have 44 gears -- and get an Excel spreadsheet that I can tape to my stem so I know what gear to pick, or maybe an app for my iPhone.
>
> About $2700 USD, but it does come with a pair of CF wheels and a proprietary cassette. I feel sorry for the early adopters when the company goes belly-up, and those cassettes are no longer available. At least the SRAM boat-anchor IGH three speed used a standard cassette body.

Since it's new and better, I imagine most people here will be compelled
to buy one.

Is it OK if I wait a couple decades?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Most people here? Please pay attention. Most people here are old , retired and grumpy.

Lou

[AMuzi]

The original Sturmey internal gearbox, The X Hub, was a two
speed which sold well right from the start. After 120 years
a redesign without the gear wire isn't stupid at all.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Do you suppose that's why I'm the center of their universe? Frank wants to argue that dark colors for riding in are just as safe as bright colors. We have Johnny telling us that he made bells out of bomb casings. And Jay telling us that the ACTUAL value of money isn't what it is worth - that its "real" value is its exchange rate against other currencies. Russy has said that he got a degree in economics and is a CPA but somehow he doesn't understand what the consumer price index is.

We have them all crying in fear of a hoax disease that I have shown NEVER existed. Or at least it never killed anyone. I suppose that covid-19 possibly exists, But no one died from it. Perhaps you can get feeling pretty lousy from it, but you can get feeling pretty lousy from a cold as well can't you?

All of this might seem pretty irrelevant to you in Holland. But aren't they telling the same things to you? WHO was kissing up to China. And the economic fall of the west helps exactly whom? Or more importantly - I hope that you don't think that another bitter despot isn't making plans for Europe this very second. How would you know until it's too late? Again?

Note what is going on here. Joe Biden can't even change his own diapers. So someone else is running our country and the American people don't have any idea who it might be. We have two figureheads in the way of a demented old fool that can't repeat a single sentence without falling asleep and the woman that was the very lowest in approval ratings of all of the candidates. How do you know that whoever is running the USA isn't plotting against you this very second? Do you think that there wasn't a reason that we made our chief officer so public?

[AMuzi]

But not all of us!
Some are old, gainfully employed while addled and still
combative, not quite the same thing.

[jbeattie]

A couple of decades? How about 4. When you got your '87 ST800, it was already old tech.

IMO, FDs are one of the most improved components over the last 30 years. I was riding around today on a bike with a '90s 600EX FD on an 11 speed drive train (my commuter bike -- it was raining, sort of). It was the only thing on the bike that did not work well. Latest generation 105/Ultegra (I don't buy Dura Ace) are great, and Di2 FDs are even better with self-trimming and fast shifts under load. I'm going to buy a more modern FD for the commuter or see if I have anything sitting around, like on my son's college bike, now abandoned in the basement. Anyway, I'm content with modern FDs and 2X and don't feel the need for a two-speed hub, but if I were a big-time gravel racer worried about dropping my chain, the two-speed hub would be attractive.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

The only trouble I find with a two speed hub, is that you still have to have a manual chain keeper to prevent derailing the front ring when you're shifting an 11 or 12 speed over 1 3/4"

[William Crowell]

Oh, I thought you meant THIS kind of 2-speed hub:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JE0xKUKVttYP_4tKsuBXB22qsP1aDA2f/view?usp=sharing

I sure would like to have one of those because it would really separate the men from the boys.

[Lou Holtman]

I said most.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

There you go again. It is really getting tiresome. When I said grumpy I was polite.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Many years ago I rode briefly with a guy who used a Sturmey-Archer AW
fitted with a freewheel. It was an intriguing concept - enough that when
I stumbled upon the appropriate threaded driver (or adapter) I bought
it. But so far I haven't used it.

So I'm aware of the concept. The SRAM version was apparently fairly
popular in the folding bike community, but my impression is that they
were less than rock solid in reliability. I think a lot of those are now
non-working orphans.

Incidentally, I very much doubt the "99% efficiency" claim of this hub.
Not that it's a deal breaker; but you seldom get that efficiency from
meshing gears.

My skepticism is mostly from my usual benefits vs. detriments thinking.
Detriments are complexity (mechanical plus electronic) and cost compared
to a front derailleur and two rings. Benefits seem minimal unless (for
reasons I don't understand) more than one chainring is now the work of
Satan.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[William Crowell]

An old, old codger wrote: "But not all of us! Some are old, gainfully employed while addled and still combative, not quite the same thing." Andrew Muzi

It sure is wonderful how Old Age and Treachery Always Overcome Youth and Skill.

retroguy. Old as Hell.

[Frank Krygowski]

Those were the days! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/10/2021 4:52 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/10/2021 11:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>> About $2700 USD, but it does come with a pair of CF wheels and a proprietary cassette. I feel sorry for the early adopters when the company goes belly-up, and those cassettes are no longer available. At least the SRAM boat-anchor IGH three speed used a standard cassette body.
>> Since it's new and better, I imagine most people here will be compelled
>> to buy one.
>>
>> Is it OK if I wait a couple decades?
>
> A couple of decades? How about 4. When you got your '87 ST800, it was already old tech.

OK, I'll wait four decades.

> IMO, FDs are one of the most improved components over the last 30 years. I was riding around today on a bike with a '90s 600EX FD on an 11 speed drive train (my commuter bike -- it was raining, sort of). It was the only thing on the bike that did not work well.

I have three bikes still running half-step plus (rarely used) granny.
That system is really easy on the front derailleur. Well, the tandem
benefits from a plastic gizmo to make sure the chain lands on the
granny, but the others haven't needed that.

A lot of the improvement in front shifting came from non-derailleur
tricks - the pins and ramps on the chainrings. But yes, front shifting
is certainly better.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[William Crowell]

Those were the days! ;-)

Damned right, Frank! When you were a kid, did you ever ride an "English bike", as we called them, usually made from Falk straight-gauge or the equivalent, with a Sturmey Archer 3-speed planetary gearset? And if you didn't have the shift cable adjusted correctly, it would go into neutral when you stood on the pedals and tried to sprint? You'd rack your balls on the top tube in a most convincing fashion. It is actually a minor miracle that I was able to father my 3 kids.

[AMuzi]

Since those are off patent, Merry is importing new ones from
India now.
https://theradavist.com/2021/03/the-merry-sales-company-is-importing-eagle-2-speed-coaster-brake-hubs-in-usa/

Nicely made, small parts interchange to original Bendix (and
they do stock small parts). All three versions are once
again current.

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom is the most unhappy person I know - even including the internet
version of "know."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/10/2021 5:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 3:58 PM, William Crowell wrote:
>> Oh, I thought you meant THIS kind of 2-speed hub:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JE0xKUKVttYP_4tKsuBXB22qsP1aDA2f/view?usp=sharing
>>
>>
>> I sure would like to have one of those because it would really
>> separate the men from the boys.
>>
>
> Since those are off patent, Merry is importing new ones from India now.
> https://theradavist.com/2021/03/the-merry-sales-company-is-importing-eagle-2-speed-coaster-brake-hubs-in-usa/
>
>
> Nicely made, small parts interchange to original Bendix (and they do
> stock small parts). All three versions are once again current.

Mr. Crowell's link was to a flip-flop hub.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Thanks.
My screen showed a title 'two speed hub' and everything else
was black

[John B.]

But Frank, just think. Looking at current, upper class, bicycle prices
and lets face it, nobody wants to be caught riding anything but the
latest and greatest, the addition of a $2,700 rear "axle" might
increase the over all cost of a new bicycle to, oh maybe, 12 - 15
thousand dollars.

Just think, park the new bike outside the garage and Hot Damn! The
neighbors will be green with envy!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

The next door neighbors wouldn't know the difference between a Colnago and a cannoli. It's hard being a conspicuous consumer of bikes among non-cyclists. BTW, the $2700 is for a hub, wheel, through axle mechanism, cassette and a RF switch. Not on my wish-list, but you can spend $2700 on high-end wheels alone.

If some guy or gal spends $10K on bike he or she loves, who cares. I spent $1,600 in inflation adjusted dollars ($250 I think) buying a '69 PX10 when I was a sophomore in high school -- all my own money, and $5K in inflation adjusted dollars for my first custom bike ($1,000) in college, again all my own money. I didn't own a car and loved bikes -- I helped build my frames and put them together at the shop where I basically lived.

People should buy whatever makes them happy . . . so long as it is a Specialized or a Trek [product placement]. You can get a Bianchi from Muzi, and that would be O.K., too -- and anything made in the USofA.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Andre Jute]

.
I'll stack my Trek made in the Benelux -- my googlebug Slow Johnny will be here shortly to explain where that is -- with full-auto hub gearbox DI2 and active-adaptive electronic suspension against any of the obsolete, overpriced bikes in your garage, sport. Besides being functionally just nicer and less of a service bother, it's also prettier. See: http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html
And here's a day-outing on it:
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLEKilmacsimon1.html
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLEKilmacsimon2.html

Andre Jute
Even Trek doesn't want American xenophobes blathering on about "buying American".

[Andre Jute]

> Add a Schlumpf drive and go to 88.
> <http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/schlumpf-drive.html>.

.
Scharfie's joke is probably over the head of the most obsessed gearheads on RBT, who'd be delighted to have 88 gears, complete with a fold-open chart of clicks-to-the-left-and-clicks-to-the-right for each gear..

But I did look into Florian Schlumpf's two-speed bottom bracket gearboxes back in the days of the Shimano Nexus 7 and 8 speed HGBs. There were basically two Schlumpf boxes, one called the Speed for obvious reasons, and the other a torque multiplier called the Muni for Mountain Bike Mobdel, also useful for utility and delivery bikes. Either of those, with the associated machining, would cost more than an entire bike of the class one would put a Nexus HGB into to deliver 14 or 16 gears, of which perhaps 11 would be usable; in other words, you'd treble or quadruple the cost of the bike for perhaps 3 extra usable gears, and one of those Schlumpfs would break your Nexus in short order, and the other had the same potential so you'd have to be careful and remember which gears to exclude.Too much for a rationalist like me to pay for bragging rights. Shimano then came out with an 11 speed HGB, the Alfine, of which a later issue was intrinsically stronger than the Nexus, at least on paper; in any event, the gear spread was bigger than in the Nexus. Serious cyclists who'd done their homework instead bought the nearly unbreakable but then little-known 14-speed Rohloff and were happy as a bedbug in a cashmere rug; the Rohloff cost about a third of Another Less Capable Gearbox Plus Schlumpf. Just for the sake of completeness, I also looked at the stronger-than-Nexus gearbox then available in the 300 per cent gear range, the NuVinci, which about then gained an automatic gearbox, but was anyway a CVT so that gear changing shouldn't be a hassle even for non-cyclists; the standard Schlumpf could be used to add useful range to the NuVinci, again at much higher total cost than the Rohloff Speed 14. So the Rohloff was then, as now, a giant-killer of a bicycle gearbox at a very reasonable price when you consider that its MTBF is unknown but north of the cost of umpteen DuraAce gruppos. (There are any number of Rohloffs going strong at 250,000 plus kilometers. Show me a DuraAce group that's gone a tenth or a twentieth as far.)

This entire thread, and the USP of the new owners of the Schlumpf IPR is off-target. Florian Schlumpf was a monocycling mountaineer. (Mountain "uni"-cycling = "muni".) His gearbox was unique to mountain cycling; that is why the gear is changed by a button at the end of the pedal axle which you bum with your heel: there is no handlebar to attach a switch to. Trying to adapt a clear Muni idea to road bikes is an answer to a question no one asked, known in premium goods marketing as The Portals to Chapter Eleven, or for the hot-polloi as "stupid".

If you feel the urge, buy a Rohloff and be done with it. That's what you'll do in the end anyway, so avoid the waste of money on the way to a Rohloff, and head straight for it.

Andre Jute
There aren't enough ostentatious big spenders in cycling.

[AMuzi]

+1.

[sms]

On 10/10/2021 8:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireless-shifting-inside-and-11-gears-on-the-outside/
>
> https://granfondo-cycling.com/classified-geared-hub-2020-test-2/
>
> The Classified Powershift hub keeps coming up on my news feeds. https://classified-cycling.cc/en/powershift-hub I'm going to get one for my 2X gravel bike so I can have 44 gears -- and get an Excel spreadsheet that I can tape to my stem so I know what gear to pick, or maybe an app for my iPhone.
>
> About $2700 USD, but it does come with a pair of CF wheels and a proprietary cassette. I feel sorry for the early adopters when the company goes belly-up, and those cassettes are no longer available. At least the SRAM boat-anchor IGH three speed used a standard cassette body.
>

> The two-speed hub idea, however, is not too crazy -- and more attractive than the CeramicSpeed cheese grater. https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3

There was already the 27 speed 3x9 SRAM Dual Drive, which was popular on
folding bikes, so a 2 x 12 is not even as good.

Combine 24 speed rear gearing with a 2 speed front Schlumpf drive
<http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html>, and add a
Mountain Tamer Quad Plus <http://abundantadventures.com/quads.html> to a
front triple crankset, and you're at 27 x 2 x 4 = 216 speeds, though
there is bound to be a bunch of overlapping ratios.

[sms]

On 10/11/2021 6:28 AM, sms wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 8:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireless-shifting-inside-and-11-gears-on-the-outside/
>>
>>
>> https://granfondo-cycling.com/classified-geared-hub-2020-test-2/
>>
>> The Classified Powershift hub keeps coming up on my news feeds.
>> https://classified-cycling.cc/en/powershift-hub  I'm going to get one
>> for my 2X gravel bike so I can have 44 gears -- and get an Excel
>> spreadsheet that I can tape to my stem so I know what gear to pick, or
>> maybe an app for my iPhone.
>>
>> About $2700 USD, but it does come with a pair of CF wheels and a
>> proprietary cassette.  I feel sorry for the early adopters when the
>> company goes belly-up, and those cassettes are no longer available.
>> At least the SRAM boat-anchor IGH three speed  used a standard
>> cassette body.
>>
>> The two-speed hub idea, however, is not too crazy -- and more
>> attractive than the CeramicSpeed cheese grater.
>> https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3
>
> There was already the 27 speed 3x9 SRAM Dual Drive, which was popular on
> folding bikes, so a 2 x 12 is not even as good.

Correction, 27 speed rear, not 24 speed rear.

> Combine 27 speed rear gearing with a 2 speed front Schlumpf drive

> <http://www.schlumpfdrive.com/index.php/home-en.html>, and add a
> Mountain Tamer Quad Plus <http://abundantadventures.com/quads.html> to a
> front triple crankset, and you're at 27 x 2 x 4 = 216 speeds, though
> there is bound to be a bunch of overlapping ratios.

Actually, any Shimano freehub compatible 7,8,9 or 10 speed cassette fits
on the dual drive, so it really can be 30 x 4 x 2 for an even 240
speeds. And you can buy an NOS (new old stock) SRAM Dual Drive hub for
under $400, see <https://www.ebay.com/itm/114352521835>.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, please excuse me. I realize that you don't come here for additional worries but you have to be at least warned.

[Tom Kunich]

I have some legal questions but it will go in a new string.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/10/2021 10:29 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> If some guy or gal spends $10K on bike he or she loves, who cares. I spent $1,600 in inflation adjusted dollars ($250 I think) buying a '69 PX10 when I was a sophomore in high school -- all my own money, and $5K in inflation adjusted dollars for my first custom bike ($1,000) in college, again all my own money. I didn't own a car and loved bikes -- I helped build my frames and put them together at the shop where I basically lived.
>
> People should buy whatever makes them happy . . .

Ah, happiness and enlightenment through consumerism! How modern! How
trendy! If only the world's foremost philosophers recognized this answer
to the life, the universe and everything!

Here's the rub: Every hack advertiser spends their career telling people
"Buying THIS will make you happy!" And with bikes as with cell phones,
it's always the newest and most expensive gimmick that will finally
bring true meaning to one's life. Or at least, to one's ride or one's
video game. Should we really believe them all?

I think it's reasonable to ask whether the purported improvement is
real, and whether the benefits are greater than the detriments.

But I realize my thought processes are terribly unfashionable.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

No, your though processes are bizarre -- at least to me and for the dollars in question. Really, who cares if someone buys a bike that makes him or her happy, assuming it doesn't prompt economic ruin or household discord. A super-high end bike is still less than a top-end stereo amplifier or a cheap car -- and lots of other things people buy because it makes them happy. You can spend more on a European vacation. Have you priced a hotel room lately (basically anywhere worth visiting)?

You also imagine this entire, evil conspiracy of advertisers coercing people into buying bicycles and equipment. Where is it?
Personally, I can't think of a single bicycle product that I bought because of advertising, hard-sell and all the other things you imagine. I did feel some implied peer pressure from Jorge when purchasing a thorn-proof tube for the e-bike. I bought a FD on Sunday for my commuter - a Shimano 105 because Big Derailleur deceived me into believing I needed it, or it could be because my 1992 FD worked like shit. I'll be crushed financially.

In fact, the only product I felt compelled to buy was a Taco Bell taco because of that talking Chihuahua -- but I refrained. Big Taco was trying to control my mind, and I rejected it! Fight the power!

-- Jay Beattie.

[William Crowell]

"Really, who cares if someone buys a bike that makes him or her happy,..."

Jay, you're conflating two different phenomena. Nobody here is knocking freedom of choice, or would want to prevent somebody from buying anything they want. It just gets really old when people have their heads so far up their asses that they think buying expensive stuff is really going to make them happy. The truth of the matter is that they have an empty soul; that's why they're unhappy; and buying stuff is not going to make them happy. Certainly you're smart enough to understand this, but for some reason you resist the realization. You don't have very much self-awareness.

[AMuzi]

+1
The largest firms on earth, enhanced by the most successful,
deviously skilled manipulators in the advertising racket[1],
have failed to entice me into the largest most lucrative
consumer market segments in any way whatsoever. Not a
nickel[2]. If that's the best they have, the problem is not
as large as Frank imagines.


[1] gargantuan and more successful than our industry, $198
bilion vs $6 billion

https://www.statista.com/topics/1448/bicycle-industry-in-the-us/

https://www.brafton.com/blog/content-marketing/the-ultimate-list-of-marketing-spend-statistics-for-2019-infographic/

Even the tchotchkes and premiums racket is $24 billion
alone, 4x our entire industry!:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/732818/promotional-products-industry-sales-usa/

[2]television, video subscriptions, walk-around telephone,
social media, fast food, new (post 1968) cars, sneakers,
haircuts, beer, etc. The list is long.

[AMuzi]

On 10/11/2021 1:04 PM, William Crowell wrote:
> "Really, who cares if someone buys a bike that makes him or her happy,..."
>
> Jay, you're conflating two different phenomena. Nobody here is knocking freedom of choice, or would want to prevent somebody from buying anything they want. It just gets really old when people have their heads so far up their asses that they think buying expensive stuff is really going to make them happy. The truth of the matter is that they have an empty soul; that's why they're unhappy; and buying stuff is not going to make them happy. Certainly you're smart enough to understand this, but for some reason you resist the realization. You don't have very much self-awareness.
>

Which may be a problem of sorts for people who _say_ they
would rather have a soul. And yet...

Casinos. I rest my case.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/11/2021 1:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:57:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/10/2021 10:29 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>> If some guy or gal spends $10K on bike he or she loves, who cares. I spent $1,600 in inflation adjusted dollars ($250 I think) buying a '69 PX10 when I was a sophomore in high school -- all my own money, and $5K in inflation adjusted dollars for my first custom bike ($1,000) in college, again all my own money. I didn't own a car and loved bikes -- I helped build my frames and put them together at the shop where I basically lived.
>>>
>>> People should buy whatever makes them happy . . .
>> Ah, happiness and enlightenment through consumerism! How modern! How
>> trendy! If only the world's foremost philosophers recognized this answer
>> to the life, the universe and everything!
>>
>> Here's the rub: Every hack advertiser spends their career telling people
>> "Buying THIS will make you happy!" And with bikes as with cell phones,
>> it's always the newest and most expensive gimmick that will finally
>> bring true meaning to one's life. Or at least, to one's ride or one's
>> video game. Should we really believe them all?
>>
>> I think it's reasonable to ask whether the purported improvement is
>> real, and whether the benefits are greater than the detriments.
>>
>> But I realize my thought processes are terribly unfashionable.
>
> No, your though processes are bizarre -- at least to me and for the dollars in question.

OK, my thought processes are considered bizarre by you and the great
bulk of Americans. Here's a local example:

Our area just got its first new department store in quite a while. Over
800 people stood in a long line to be among the first to enter. Many
thousands in huge crowds packed the store during its first few days. I
assume they loade up their car trunks with electric egg peelers, compact
TVs for their bathrooms, cell phone cases, knickknacks and tchotchkes to
replace their existing knickknacks and tchotchkes, handheld vacuum
cleaners, bath towels and place mats.

Those people would never understand my question "Why watch TV on the
toilet?" or "How many place mats do you really need?" They'd say the
questions are bizarre. But they won't be any happier the next day.

> Really, who cares if someone buys a bike that makes him or her happy, assuming it doesn't prompt economic ruin or household discord. A super-high end bike is still less than a top-end stereo amplifier or a cheap car -- and lots of other things people buy because it makes them happy. You can spend more on a European vacation. Have you priced a hotel room lately (basically anywhere worth visiting)?

Regarding each person's choice, I don't generally care - although I do
know a few couples whose marriage failed at least in part because of
compulsive spending.

But I might turn the question around: Why is it so offensive to consider
benefits vs. detriments, and to try to quantify benefits?

> You also imagine this entire, evil conspiracy of advertisers coercing people into buying bicycles and equipment. Where is it?

Do you really need to ask? Perhaps "evil" is stretching it, but have you
never seen an issue of _Buycycling_ magazine? "The new saddles you've
GOT to try!!" and "Best lycra for sexy legs!" (OK, not direct quotes,
but not far off. Our library's closed today.)

> Personally, I can't think of a single bicycle product that I bought because of advertising, hard-sell and all the other things you imagine.

Hah! Are you claiming you're immune to the effects of advertising? If
so, can you give me a list of clothing, shoes, pedals, lights, saddles,
bar tape, tires, tubes and bikes that you did _not_ see in advertisements?

While not necessarily endorsing their practices, I note that Joerg and
Scharf at least seem to search for off-brand stuff they think is as
good. Your tendency seems to be to buy not the current "Best!!!" from
the most advertised manufacturers, but the slightly less advertised
second best from the same manufacturers.

I'd say one goal of the advertising industry is to convince people that
they made the wisest, most rational choice in their purchases - that is,
a choice completely unaffected by advertising. I think that with most
people, they're succeeding.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Most people do consider benefits and detriments -- although I imagine their columns look different than yours. To you, it is a benefit to have 40 year old technology. Most modern purchasers who have ridden 40 year old technology disagree.

> > You also imagine this entire, evil conspiracy of advertisers coercing people into buying bicycles and equipment. Where is it?
> Do you really need to ask? Perhaps "evil" is stretching it, but have you
> never seen an issue of _Buycycling_ magazine? "The new saddles you've
> GOT to try!!" and "Best lycra for sexy legs!" (OK, not direct quotes,
> but not far off. Our library's closed today.)

I don't subscribe to Bicycling. In the real world, people usually buy shorts by manufacturer because they have found a pair that fit right, or they buy off sale tables -- or they talk to sales people in stores who have recommendations, sometimes good and sometimes bad. They try stuff on. They go to Amazon or the internet to learn about fit. Do you know anyone who bought a pair of shorts because of an ad about sexy legs? I don't.

Yes, people do buy clothing for status, although not so much with bicycle clothing. Regrettably, Assos is really good clothing, although not worth the stratospheric prices -- but one could argue the point, unlike civilian clothing that is just a $50 t-shirt with a designer logo, and $50 because of the logo.

> > Personally, I can't think of a single bicycle product that I bought because of advertising, hard-sell and all the other things you imagine.
> Hah! Are you claiming you're immune to the effects of advertising? If
> so, can you give me a list of clothing, shoes, pedals, lights, saddles,
> bar tape, tires, tubes and bikes that you did _not_ see in advertisements?

Yes, I'm immune if you imagine advertising as some sort of mind control. And are you talking about ads or just a product description on a web-page? Whenever I buy off the internet, I look at the seller's product description -- which may or may not contain much in the way of promotion.

I don't remember an ad being responsible for anything I've purchased ever. I didn't see any ads for my gaggle of Specialized shoes. Guess where I got those? I got most of my jerseys from riding on teams, sale tables, from my son's teams or employers, or local companies with basically no advertising presence (Hyperthreads in SLC -- great stuff https://hyperthreads.com/ [product placement]). I had some Blix jerseys from a short-lived company in Portland in the 90s that sponsored a team I was on. Castelli USA is in Portland, and I bought stuff from their annual give-away. Rapha was here, too, but they got bought by the Walmart Bros. and moved to Arkansas! I didn't buy anything from their sale because it didn't fit. Showers Pass is PDX, too, but I bought my jacket on sale at Western Bikeworks after trying it on, along with a bunch of other jackets. I know they advertise, but I haven't seen one of their ads. Its just good stuff, but I'm still watching what my friends are buying to see if their jackets perform better.

I get EP at Specialized and have access to other products that many don't, but for other purchases like my FD, I surf the internet going first to Western where I have points that are about to expire. They were out of product, so I went elsewhere. I've never seen an ad and said "I need that!" Has anyone here done that?

> While not necessarily endorsing their practices, I note that Joerg and
> Scharf at least seem to search for off-brand stuff they think is as
> good. Your tendency seems to be to buy not the current "Best!!!" from
> the most advertised manufacturers, but the slightly less advertised
> second best from the same manufacturers.

Do you even know what I own or how I got it? All of my current bikes were bought as replacements for other bikes that had been stolen, failed or been destroyed. I got them either directly from the company (a client) or on sale at Western or as warranty replacement. I bought none of them based on advertisements Warranty replacements are take-it-or-leave-it.

> I'd say one goal of the advertising industry is to convince people that
> they made the wisest, most rational choice in their purchases - that is,
> a choice completely unaffected by advertising. I think that with most
> people, they're succeeding.

The advertising industry has become your white whale.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I might disagree slightly with you there. I probably have more in each of the bikes I have right now than I have in my 2007 Taurus. (The Ford, not the gun) And while the claim that slow Johnny would make is that it makes 18 mpg, I have always beat that in the city and driving too and from Phoenix ALWAYS got a minimum of 35 and topped out at 43.

[jbeattie]

If someone comes into your store wanting to order a Specialissima, you need to put them on a 24 hour psych hold -- or send them to midnight mass. Get a deposit, first, though.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

pffft.
Top of the line Bianchis are always cheaper than a midlife
crisis new girlfriend or a zippy red Italian Pagani/
Ferrari/ Lamborghini. Such a deal!

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/11/2021 4:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 11:47:47 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/11/2021 1:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>> Really, who cares if someone buys a bike that makes him or her happy, assuming it doesn't prompt economic ruin or household discord. A super-high end bike is still less than a top-end stereo amplifier or a cheap car -- and lots of other things people buy because it makes them happy. You can spend more on a European vacation. Have you priced a hotel room lately (basically anywhere worth visiting)?
>> Regarding each person's choice, I don't generally care - although I do
>> know a few couples whose marriage failed at least in part because of
>> compulsive spending.
>>
>> But I might turn the question around: Why is it so offensive to consider
>> benefits vs. detriments, and to try to quantify benefits?
>
> Most people do consider benefits and detriments -- although I imagine their columns look different than yours.

Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?

"Cute" and "trendy" and "what the pros use" and even "expensive" make
the positive column for lots of people (because they think anything that
costs more _must_ be better). I heartily disagree with all those.

> To you, it is a benefit to have 40 year old technology. Most modern purchasers who have ridden 40 year old technology disagree.

I don't go by the calendar. I go by function, reliability, repairability
and often simplicity - which is heavily connected to the latter two.

>
>>> You also imagine this entire, evil conspiracy of advertisers coercing people into buying bicycles and equipment. Where is it?
>> Do you really need to ask? Perhaps "evil" is stretching it, but have you
>> never seen an issue of _Buycycling_ magazine? "The new saddles you've
>> GOT to try!!" and "Best lycra for sexy legs!" (OK, not direct quotes,
>> but not far off. Our library's closed today.)
>
> I don't subscribe to Bicycling. In the real world, people usually buy shorts by manufacturer because they have found a pair that fit right, or they buy off sale tables -- or they talk to sales people in stores who have recommendations, sometimes good and sometimes bad. They try stuff on. They go to Amazon or the internet to learn about fit. Do you know anyone who bought a pair of shorts because of an ad about sexy legs? I don't.

Again, that was a bit of parody. But it seems naive in the extreme to
pretend that advertising doesn't affect the purchasing behavior of
customers. If that were true, the advertising industry would collapse.
As it is, Google claims it revenues are about 130 billion dollars per year.

> Yes, people do buy clothing for status, although not so much with bicycle clothing.

Because there's no such thing as team jerseys...

>>>
> I get EP at Specialized and have access to other products that many don't, but for other purchases like my FD, I surf the internet going first to Western where I have points that are about to expire. They were out of product, so I went elsewhere. I've never seen an ad and said "I need that!" Has anyone here done that?

You are probably unusual to a degree because of your unusual connections
to the industry. (One famous bike industry guy phones me on my birthday
but he doesn't give me stuff. Of course he doesn't own the company any
more...)

But when you buy your front derailleur, what brands do you search for?
Based on what you've said here, you favor Ultegra. Did you even
consider, say, the largely unadvertised Ultrashift?

>> While not necessarily endorsing their practices, I note that Joerg and
>> Scharf at least seem to search for off-brand stuff they think is as
>> good. Your tendency seems to be to buy not the current "Best!!!" from
>> the most advertised manufacturers, but the slightly less advertised
>> second best from the same manufacturers.
>
> Do you even know what I own or how I got it? All of my current bikes were bought as replacements for other bikes that had been stolen, failed or been destroyed. I got them either directly from the company (a client) or on sale at Western or as warranty replacement. I bought none of them based on advertisements Warranty replacements are take-it-or-leave-it.

Warranty replacements are typically replacements for a bike purchased
normally. Most people without deep industry connections normally make
purchases that are affected by advertisements. Again, if that were not
true, bike companies wouldn't bother to advertise. >

>> I'd say one goal of the advertising industry is to convince people that
>> they made the wisest, most rational choice in their purchases - that is,
>> a choice completely unaffected by advertising. I think that with most
>> people, they're succeeding.
>
> The advertising industry has become your white whale.

Well, I'm not a great fan. One of my college buddies - in a very
different major - was proud of landing a job doing ads for a grocery
store. Another acquintance - commercial artist - once proudly showed off
the front cover for an advertising catalog he designed. I failed at
feigning being impressed.

But my standards are different than a lot of cycling enthusiasts, who
like it or not, do give bonus points to trendiness, or just "NEW"-ness.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

And unlike the other items listed, bikes may help you to live long enough
to pay them off.

[Roger Merriman]

It’s a fairly low percentage who just go out and buy some lovely 10k carbon
beastie.

Certainly for myself the way bikes or at least road bikes have become less
specialised and more adaptable.

With technology such as diskbrakes which quite apart form their performance
allow wider tires to be introduced.

I even bought a new groupset or least most of it so I could get Hydraulic
as the cable was just dreadful I’ve not regretted it at all, only down side
is the pads are more expensive though they do last longer.

I’ve personally not used tubeless for number of reasons partly the cost,
partly the faff, and partly tubes I can fix on the side of a mountain
during a thunderstorm..

My bikes are 10/9s I only upgrade as and when I need and a extra cog isn’t
enough to temp me.

In short I’m like a lot of riders yes some will have new bling stuff but
most will be on tech from a few years back.

Roger Merriman.

[jbeattie]

Like a local team jersey - that you have to wear in races? I have a lot of those and some local teams that my son rode on like University of Utah. And I have some shop jerseys like Contender -- you have to support the shops. Are you talking Euro-team jerseys? I don't think those are status -- its more like fan-ware. You can get Chinese fan-ware jerseys for pennies practically. It's some of the cheapest junk on the interweb. Some of the fan-ware jerseys are actually negative status. You're immediately pegged as a dope if you're wearing the world-champion stripes -- or see-through white FdJ or now UAE white shorts.

> >>>
> > I get EP at Specialized and have access to other products that many don't, but for other purchases like my FD, I surf the internet going first to Western where I have points that are about to expire. They were out of product, so I went elsewhere. I've never seen an ad and said "I need that!" Has anyone here done that?
> You are probably unusual to a degree because of your unusual connections
> to the industry. (One famous bike industry guy phones me on my birthday
> but he doesn't give me stuff. Of course he doesn't own the company any
> more...)
>
> But when you buy your front derailleur, what brands do you search for?
> Based on what you've said here, you favor Ultegra. Did you even
> consider, say, the largely unadvertised Ultrashift?

You mean Microshift? I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.

> >> While not necessarily endorsing their practices, I note that Joerg and
> >> Scharf at least seem to search for off-brand stuff they think is as
> >> good. Your tendency seems to be to buy not the current "Best!!!" from
> >> the most advertised manufacturers, but the slightly less advertised
> >> second best from the same manufacturers.
> >
> > Do you even know what I own or how I got it? All of my current bikes were bought as replacements for other bikes that had been stolen, failed or been destroyed. I got them either directly from the company (a client) or on sale at Western or as warranty replacement. I bought none of them based on advertisements Warranty replacements are take-it-or-leave-it.

> Warranty replacements are typically replacements for a bike purchased
> normally. Most people without deep industry connections normally make
> purchases that are affected by advertisements. Again, if that were not
> true, bike companies wouldn't bother to advertise. >

Have you conducted market research to determine what drives bicycle purchasing decisions? Based on personal experience, advertising gets your brand out there -- but whether it results in a sale is a whole other thing. With similar products, its all about price, warranty, availability, aesthetics, brand-loyalty -- and the test ride. Sales people make a difference. Andrew probably sells a lot of bikes because he is Andrew. And yes, people who are serious hit the internet and read reviews, which may or may not be advertising, depending on the impartiality of the reviewer. Representations made in advertising can be important, but it is mostly product description like "not tubeless compatible" -- which is actually a selling point for me.

I admit, though, I don't know how civilians buy bikes, and in fact, I think it would be interesting to find out. When I was a civilian, I had a bike-crazy peer group, and I went to shops and looked at other peoples' bikes. I didn't see my first Bicycling magazine until maybe 1974. These days, I think people hit the internet or go to a local shop or REI. They come up with a price range and see what fits in it.

> >> I'd say one goal of the advertising industry is to convince people that
> >> they made the wisest, most rational choice in their purchases - that is,
> >> a choice completely unaffected by advertising. I think that with most
> >> people, they're succeeding.
> > The advertising industry has become your white whale.
> Well, I'm not a great fan. One of my college buddies - in a very
> different major - was proud of landing a job doing ads for a grocery
> store. Another acquintance - commercial artist - once proudly showed off
> the front cover for an advertising catalog he designed. I failed at
> feigning being impressed.
>
> But my standards are different than a lot of cycling enthusiasts, who
> like it or not, do give bonus points to trendiness, or just "NEW"-ness.

What you consider trendy is basically anything sold on a new bike these days. "When I was your age, I used Cambio Corsa . . . all this cable down-tube stuff is just fashion. Fashion is a powerful thing! [shaking his fist . . . shuffling forward in his walker]."
BTW, retro-fashion is a powerful thing, too.

What I want to know is why the kid on the SS fat bike I see struggling over the hill on my way home from work bought that bike. Why would any sane person buy that bike? If that purchase was the result of advertising, that advertising guy or gal should be given a raise.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Don't be ridiculous Frank. Of course the benefits are greater. Imagine
yourself as Sales Manager for a company and through careful and
skillful advertising you increase sales by 100% I can guarantee that
you will benefit greatly.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
> shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
> the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
> about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?

Do you find that immoral or something?

Lou

[Andre Jute]

Christ. As the only one here who actually knows anything about the practice of advertising, I can only admire the depth of your delusion, Jay. Count the brandnames that you place exactly in their relative environment in your "I'm immune to advertising" screed, and congratulate about 500 ad people who're right now having a rich laugh at you doing volunteer work for them, advertising goods (1) for whose sales they'll claim credit.

I've told you before: stick to what you know, not to what you think you know. You could have asked your clients about advertising, but you didn't, and it is obvious you didn't ask, you just sprayed ignorance off the top of your head.

Andre Jute
At least, for better or worse, Slow Johnny has looked up the subject on Wikipedia.

(1) And you're not doing just any old advertising, Jay, you're doing the very most valuable, word of mouth.

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:36:16 AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >
> With technology such as diskbrakes which quite apart form their performance
> allow wider tires to be introduced.

Depends how thoughtful the person who designed your fork was. I operate Magura rim hydraulics over 60mm Schwalbe Big Apples, run on the lowest possible inflation regime so that the "folding" sidewalls bulge out quite a bit when I hit a pothole at speed. I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary for the clients of my bike-maker: he intended the Big Apples to be the entire suspension of the bike, and for those clients who demand exquisitely progressive brakes to have the most progressive, the Magura rim hydraulics with the largest (i.e. weakest but most progressive) caliper chamber volume, and sans the stiffening brace. An amazing number of people with BMW money for a bike choose this apparently (to those who haven't tried such an installation on a fast downhill against discs or Shimano's dead-on roller stoppers) sissy set-up over the Magura discs, which when I specified my bike were actually cheaper.

>
> My bikes are 10/9s I only upgrade as and when I need and a extra cog isn’t
> enough to temp me.
>

I like buying gear on the day after its makers declare it obsolete. It's usually old enough by then for all the bugs to be worked out and for all the software/other components to have caught up.
>
Andre Jute
I don't follow fashions, I make them.

[Roger Merriman]

Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:36:16 AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>> With technology such as diskbrakes which quite apart form their performance
>> allow wider tires to be introduced.
>
> Depends how thoughtful the person who designed your fork was. I operate
> Magura rim hydraulics over 60mm Schwalbe Big Apples, run on the lowest
> possible inflation regime so that the "folding" sidewalls bulge out quite
> a bit when I hit a pothole at speed. I'm not doing anything out of the
> ordinary for the clients of my bike-maker: he intended the Big Apples to
> be the entire suspension of the bike, and for those clients who demand
> exquisitely progressive brakes to have the most progressive, the Magura
> rim hydraulics with the largest (i.e. weakest but most progressive)
> caliper chamber volume, and sans the stiffening brace. An amazing number
> of people with BMW money for a bike choose this apparently (to those who
> haven't tried such an installation on a fast downhill against discs or
> Shimano's dead-on roller stoppers) sissy set-up over the Magura discs,
> which when I specified my bike were actually cheaper.

My oldest and commute bike runs BigApple’s though in 50mm form i rate them
highly, I run them fairly low, too low and they will wander or potentially
rim strike, as the side wall is lovely and flexible!

I presume that the rim vs rotor that caused its low take up. I *think* I
may have seen one few years back but rare to see.

>>
>> My bikes are 10/9s I only upgrade as and when I need and a extra cog isn’t
>> enough to temp me.
>>
> I like buying gear on the day after its makers declare it obsolete. It's
> usually old enough by then for all the bugs to be worked out and for all
> the software/other components to have caught up.
>>

Depends on the cost vs performance, for example the Tiagra brakes, are
essentially rebadged GRX so fairly new tech but at lower price point, and
have worked brilliantly.

> Andre Jute
> I don't follow fashions, I make them.
>

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

> Roger Merman

Roller brakes in their limper form are common in The Netherlands on commuter/city bikes; I have one of those on the back of a Gazelle Toulouse, with a disc on the front for a beefier stop; in combination they make a sort of anti-skid brake. I also have also have Shimano's 70 or 75 rollers, real evil stoppers that'll plant you on your face if you're careless, front and rear on a Trek L700 frame fitted out as an automatic commuter; they're a long way from smooth enough for a social cyclist; they'll probably be beloved of the kind of cyclist who is grimly determined to get every ounce of performance out of his bike. I really don't know why Magura's rim hydraulics are not much more common, unless it is the thought that eventually they'll wear out the rim and the new rim will have to be respoked; they're brakes as keen as a puppydog to be whatever sort of friend you want, from ultra-smooth at my end of the spectrum to very powerful and even sudden at the other end; certainly more consistent than discs. As for discs, I never had any that were predictable to my standards of smooth stops, and I hated their constant demands for new pads. I developed my everyday bike to require an absolute minimum of service, currently at a gearbox oil change and shot of Phil into a switch box once.a year, and a new chain and tyres every few years. (The chain runs on the factory lube inside a Chainglider for its entire life, with zero cleaning, oiling or other service.) The Magura rim hydraulics fit that scheme perfectly: their proprietary blocks last 10k! -- Andre Jute

[jbeattie]

$20 is a good price for a ceramic acorn. Have you seen the price of ceramic acorns lately? I would have gotten two.
-- Jay Beattie.

[jbeattie]

> > > a choice completely unaffected by advertising. I think that with most A

> > > people, they're succeeding.
> > The advertising industry has become your white whale.
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> Christ. As the only one here who actually knows anything about the practice of advertising, I can only admire the depth of your delusion, Jay. Count the brandnames that you place exactly in their relative environment in your "I'm immune to advertising" screed, and congratulate about 500 ad people who're right now having a rich laugh at you doing volunteer work for them, advertising goods (1) for whose sales they'll claim credit.
>
> I've told you before: stick to what you know, not to what you think you know. You could have asked your clients about advertising, but you didn't, and it is obvious you didn't ask, you just sprayed ignorance off the top of your head.

Dear Oracle, I am an expert in me and have a pretty good idea of what motivates my purchases. And yes, I do receive information word of mouth, but that is not what Frank was talking about. I also suspect your advertising experience is a bit stale, being that we now have the internet -- and indoor plumbing. Did you really write this book in 1877? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F9QNHY0/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i4

I think the more interesting question is how civilians make their purchasing decision. I'm sure advertising plays a role -- and particularly brand awareness, but how many people watch the TdF or even know who Peter Sagan is? I doubt many people have even seen a Bicycling magazine. Most people do research on the internet and/or ask a friend. I bet YouTube is far more important now than Bicycling. Reviews are the advertising these days -- both professional and amateur.

How did you end up with your Byzantine Utopia Kranich? That must have been some weird advertising mind control.

I went from all custom steel frames to Cannondale aluminum frames purely by happenstance. I broke my steel racing frame and needed a quick replacement -- which meant making phone calls using the Yellow Pages. I found a shop near Portland with a 63cm Cannondale first generation frame hanging on the wall, and it was reasonably priced -- like $250, so I bought it. This was 1984-5. I had ridden on a racing team sponsored by Gary Klein in the '70s and early '80s, but could never afford one of his bikes -- but I liked the idea of stiff, particularly in a large size, and the Cannondale fit the bill. Nobody was riding Cannondale in the pro peloton, and with the cottage cheese welds, they were a lo-fi product, but I really liked the frame. I stayed brand loyal for many years. I'm surrounded by Trek stores and represented the company, and I represented Specialized and rode with its founder and knew a lot of the original employees, so I am loyal to those companies, too -- even before my son went to work for Specialized. But I'll still buy well-made off brand and sale table items.

-- Jay Beattie

[Frank Krygowski]

I count it as evidence that Jay's claim was wrong. He said
"Most people do consider benefits and detriments." The lady in question
apparently considered only "I _want_ that ceramic acorn."

Many purchases are like that, and that level of thinking is what most
advertisements strive to promote.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I suspect that you, sir, are no expert on the subtleties of
ceramic acorns.

I'll posit that you know about as much about ceramic
bric-a-brac as she does about half-step 3x6 gearing.

[Tom Kunich]

This is one of the things that I can't quite understand about Jay. Obviously an intelligent man, a rider, a man willing to pay the bill for at least descent equipment. But with idea about virtually everything else under the sun that he knows and understands it. He is as bad as Frank who doesn't even know that "mass" is only applicable on the quantum level. He thinks that acceleration of a bike is somehow dependent upon whether you specify the weight/mass of an object as kg or lbs.

[Tom Kunich]

And as we know, you didn't chose your bike - you inherited it from your great grandfather.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 3:56:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> You are probably unusual to a degree because of your unusual connections
>> to the industry. (One famous bike industry guy phones me on my birthday
>> but he doesn't give me stuff. Of course he doesn't own the company any
>> more...)
>>
>> But when you buy your front derailleur, what brands do you search for?
>> Based on what you've said here, you favor Ultegra. Did you even
>> consider, say, the largely unadvertised Ultrashift?
>
> You mean Microshift?

Yes, sorry, I did mean Microshift. Oddly, I don't keep brand names
foremost in my memory. Who could have guessed?

> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.

I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.

> Have you conducted market research to determine what drives bicycle purchasing decisions? Based on personal experience, advertising gets your brand out there -- but whether it results in a sale is a whole other thing. With similar products, its all about price, warranty, availability, aesthetics, brand-loyalty -- and the test ride. Sales people make a difference. Andrew probably sells a lot of bikes because he is Andrew. And yes, people who are serious hit the internet and read reviews, which may or may not be advertising, depending on the impartiality of the reviewer. Representations made in advertising can be important, but it is mostly product description like "not tubeless compatible" -- which is actually a selling point for me.
>
> I admit, though, I don't know how civilians buy bikes, and in fact, I think it would be interesting to find out. When I was a civilian, I had a bike-crazy peer group, and I went to shops and looked at other peoples' bikes. I didn't see my first Bicycling magazine until maybe 1974. These days, I think people hit the internet or go to a local shop or REI. They come up with a price range and see what fits in it.

About "how civilians buy bikes," (or components, accessories, etc.) your
position has been that most people don't let advertising influence them.
It's frankly ludicrous to think _we_ need to do market research on that
point. Any American consumer products company above the level of a craft
show booth employs advertising, because it works and everyone knows it.
Some ads and advertising techniques became so influential they're now
cultural memes.

Again, you may be different, at least to a degree. Our little
self-selected discussion group is surely different in many ways than
than the population of typical American bike buyers. But I very much
doubt that you're immune to advertising.

>> But my standards are different than a lot of cycling enthusiasts, who
>> like it or not, do give bonus points to trendiness, or just "NEW"-ness.
>
> What you consider trendy is basically anything sold on a new bike these days.

Sorry, that makes no sense. Try rephrasing if you want a response.

> BTW, retro-fashion is a powerful thing, too.

Yes, it can be. But I've never participated in a "tweed ride."
https://tinyurl.com/37v3vbdh

And while I do own one true antique bike, given to me by a friend, I
never ride it; it's stored in the garage attic.

My bikes are very well suited for their uses. I see no need to change
just because something new is on the market. And there certainly have
been benefits. Heck, I was able to completely skip the mania about close
clearance frames. And I probably saved many hundreds of dollars by not
following the fashion-of-the-day for bottom brackets.

What you portray as "retro fashion" is a refusal to adopt racing
oriented design choices. But my refusal is based on the simple fact that
I don't race. Also I feel no need to hide my age and increasing slowness
from myself by buying ever lighter, trickier bikes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/12/2021 10:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank
>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying?
>>>> I'd think most
>>>> shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at
>>>> an art gallery
>>>> the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a
>>>> ceramic acorn
>>>> about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of
>>>> a ceramic acorn?
>>>
>>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>>
>> I count it as evidence that Jay's claim was wrong. He said
>> "Most people do consider benefits and detriments." The lady
>> in question apparently considered only "I _want_ that
>> ceramic acorn."
>>
>> Many purchases are like that, and that level of thinking is
>> what most advertisements strive to promote.
>>
>
> I suspect that you, sir, are no expert on the subtleties of ceramic acorns.

Well, you've got me there.

What are they?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I have absolutely no clue. Which is why I wouldn't second
guess another person's choice.

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 3:56:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >> You are probably unusual to a degree because of your unusual connections
> >> to the industry. (One famous bike industry guy phones me on my birthday
> >> but he doesn't give me stuff. Of course he doesn't own the company any
> >> more...)
> >>
> >> But when you buy your front derailleur, what brands do you search for?
> >> Based on what you've said here, you favor Ultegra. Did you even
> >> consider, say, the largely unadvertised Ultrashift?
> >
> > You mean Microshift?
> Yes, sorry, I did mean Microshift. Oddly, I don't keep brand names
> foremost in my memory. Who could have guessed?
> > I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.

Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record. All the things you see as some sort of sinister plot are actually a plus for the ordinary consumer -- as proved by all of Tom's odd-ball non-recourse China purchases. And why is it a problem to have equipment that matches?

> > Have you conducted market research to determine what drives bicycle purchasing decisions? Based on personal experience, advertising gets your brand out there -- but whether it results in a sale is a whole other thing. With similar products, its all about price, warranty, availability, aesthetics, brand-loyalty -- and the test ride. Sales people make a difference. Andrew probably sells a lot of bikes because he is Andrew. And yes, people who are serious hit the internet and read reviews, which may or may not be advertising, depending on the impartiality of the reviewer. Representations made in advertising can be important, but it is mostly product description like "not tubeless compatible" -- which is actually a selling point for me.
> >
> > I admit, though, I don't know how civilians buy bikes, and in fact, I think it would be interesting to find out. When I was a civilian, I had a bike-crazy peer group, and I went to shops and looked at other peoples' bikes. I didn't see my first Bicycling magazine until maybe 1974. These days, I think people hit the internet or go to a local shop or REI. They come up with a price range and see what fits in it.
> About "how civilians buy bikes," (or components, accessories, etc.) your
> position has been that most people don't let advertising influence them.
> It's frankly ludicrous to think _we_ need to do market research on that
> point. Any American consumer products company above the level of a craft
> show booth employs advertising, because it works and everyone knows it.
> Some ads and advertising techniques became so influential they're now
> cultural memes.
>
> Again, you may be different, at least to a degree. Our little
> self-selected discussion group is surely different in many ways than
> than the population of typical American bike buyers. But I very much
> doubt that you're immune to advertising.

We're talking about bikes -- not shoes and sweat-shirts. What advertising is even seen by the average bicycle consumer? I would like to hear from a real consumer about why he or she bought a bike. Brand awareness and confidence are important things, but why someone buys a specific bike seems to be driven by need, features, price-point and things. People are not impulsively buying bikes at the cash register, although people can buy with little or no research. My son worked in Specialized and Trek shops, and families would come in and buy in bulk for a vacation. He was guilty about selling some sketchy guy a double-suspended fat bike for >$4K . . . on credit. The guy just wanted it -- but why? It's pretty useless for most riding. Why do people buy Wilier or Ridley or Felt? I can get pro deal on Felt . . . but passed because I don't know the company. Why did you buy a Cannondale instead of a Trek 510 -- or a Miyata 1000.

> >> But my standards are different than a lot of cycling enthusiasts, who
> >> like it or not, do give bonus points to trendiness, or just "NEW"-ness.
> >
> > What you consider trendy is basically anything sold on a new bike these days.
> Sorry, that makes no sense. Try rephrasing if you want a response.
> > BTW, retro-fashion is a powerful thing, too.
> Yes, it can be. But I've never participated in a "tweed ride."
> https://tinyurl.com/37v3vbdh
>
> And while I do own one true antique bike, given to me by a friend, I
> never ride it; it's stored in the garage attic.
>
> My bikes are very well suited for their uses. I see no need to change
> just because something new is on the market. And there certainly have
> been benefits. Heck, I was able to completely skip the mania about close
> clearance frames. And I probably saved many hundreds of dollars by not
> following the fashion-of-the-day for bottom brackets.

It's great you skipped ISIS and Octalink. I was buying those things because I broke cranks and not because I was impulse buying cranks or bikes.

"Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.

>
> What you portray as "retro fashion" is a refusal to adopt racing
> oriented design choices. But my refusal is based on the simple fact that
> I don't race. Also I feel no need to hide my age and increasing slowness
> from myself by buying ever lighter, trickier bikes.

No, retro fashion is cotton-duck handlebar bags and 1960s cranks. Basically historical reenacting. It's far more affected than just riding an OTC modern sport or gravel bike.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

So what? Again, do you find that immoral?

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

How dare you not read another person's mind? Frank does all the time.

[Tom Kunich]

Actually he has shown often that he thinks and anything newer than his steel touring bike and bar end shifter are immoral.

[Andre Jute]

I've saved that sentence for when Post-Chinese Pandemic my Post-Doctoral Tutorial starts meeting again; It'll be good for a laugh. Do you really think you'd know when I influenced you? You have a fridge in your kitchen, and a deepfreeze, don't you?. Check the brands in them. That's me, and people I trained, in your head and your wife's head.

>And yes, I do receive information word of mouth,

You've deliberately misunderstood me. You were giving -- as you do almost daily -- strong word of mouth accolades to heavily advertised brands. Of course you receive word of mouth advertising every day. That's hardly notable.

>but that is not what Frank was talking about.

Who cares shit what that pompous clot witters on about? Wake me when he says something interesting.

>I also suspect your advertising experience is a bit stale,

You don't even know what I did in advertising.

>being that we now have the internet -- and indoor plumbing. Did you really write this book in 1877? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F9QNHY0/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i4

It feels like it every time yet another typographer writes to ask if he can come make obeisance.

> I think the more interesting question is how civilians make their purchasing decision. I'm sure advertising plays a role -- and particularly brand awareness, but how many people watch the TdF or even know who Peter Sagan is? I doubt many people have even seen a Bicycling magazine. Most people do research on the internet and/or ask a friend. I bet YouTube is far more important now than Bicycling. Reviews are the advertising these days -- both professional and amateur.
>
> How did you end up with your Byzantine Utopia Kranich? That must have been some weird advertising mind control.

Easy. I knew what I wanted the bike to do, and I'm not bothered about the opinions of one-size-fits-all lemmings like you. I've never, either before or after I bought one, seen any Utopia-Velo advertising. They spend their marketing budget taking their bikes to shows and letting the public inspect them close up, and on very detailed long-read catalogues. In fact the significant recommendation that swayed my purchase came from RBT: Chalo Colina recommended the Utopia Kranich. I looked into Chalo and found him to have impressive achievements, and then looked into Utopia-Velo and found them to cling stubbornly to a unique vision; I'd earlier looked into the Kranich but rejected it as overpriced and pretty odd, but I decided, on hand of Chalo's recommendation and warming towards the Utopia-Velo design philosophy to try one of their bikes. I haven't regretted the decision a minute since. It's a first class bike, but you do need a fair bit of self-confidence to bring it off.

Andre Jute
Losers needn't apply.

PS. At one stage I had a Rolloff-equipped Europe-only Cannonade with truly beautiful rear frame-ends on order but they sold the last one to the guy before me.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
She should have bought a ceramic walnut or ceramic pecan. Humans eat walnuts and pecans. But we don't eat acorns from oak trees. At least I don't recall eating acorns before. But maybe I have and didn't know it. I am sure if we looked in the right religious bibles or texts we could interpret something in some of them saying its evil and satanic and unhygienic to eat acorns.

[jbeattie]

Oh, so you're some lemming that follows word-of-mouth advertising? Pffff. And all of my bikes fit me and are not some sissy sit-up-and-beg mixte frame from the industrial revolution. https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/UtopiaKranich0109/Bottom%20Bracket%20Shell.jpg That bike has enough tubing to re-plumb my house.
Speaking as a real man, I can tell you that real men do not ride those bikes. And as I understand it, the bike now has a motor, probably stolen from an 1950s Erector Set to match the over-all aesthetic. I imagine it is easier riding that bike during the pandemic since you can hide -- at least in part -- behind a face mask. And any time you want, I'll drag race you on the Vado. https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a26933762/specialized-turbo-vado-reivew/ Bicycling says it makes my legs look sexy.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

I believe that you are wrong with the "impulse buying". Most
divertimenti I see is intended to convincing the potential buyer that
THIS product is BETTER. And it works!

Think of the guys, right here, that are singing the praises of an
electrical shift. "Yesseree-Bob! It's Better! See, it shifts in 0.002
seconds, I timed it myself. And my old cable system took 200 times as
long to shift!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, you plant them out in the yard with the hopes that a ceramic
tree will grow and instead of having wash the dirty cups and plates
you can just throw them away and pick some new ones off the tree at
meal time (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

To be perfectly honest, I know the acorn purchase was a judgment based
on aesthetic taste. Those are not subject to much rational analysis. And
the price was minimal, so the incident matters mostly as an illustration
that impulse buying does exist - something Jay seemed to be denying.

But bikes and bike accessories are generally intended to be functional,
which means they can be rationally analyzed. The typical person who says
"Ooh, 11 cogs and a super high gear so I can go really fast!" is not
being rational. They are caving in to some sort of fashion or
advertising effort.

And is that immoral? Probably not; but it's far from smart.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

If you like ceramic acorns, they buying a ceramic acorn is a benefit
because it means you get to spend more time admiring your ceramic acorns.

And as long as you don’t have anything better to spend your money on, it’s
all good.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 3:56:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You are probably unusual to a degree because of your unusual connections
>>>> to the industry. (One famous bike industry guy phones me on my birthday
>>>> but he doesn't give me stuff. Of course he doesn't own the company any
>>>> more...)
>>>>
>>>> But when you buy your front derailleur, what brands do you search for?
>>>> Based on what you've said here, you favor Ultegra. Did you even
>>>> consider, say, the largely unadvertised Ultrashift?
>>>
>>> You mean Microshift?
>> Yes, sorry, I did mean Microshift. Oddly, I don't keep brand names
>> foremost in my memory. Who could have guessed?
>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
>
> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.

??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.

I can remember only one failed front derailleur, which I replaced for a
friend of mine. Her 1970-something SunTour FD broke its return spring.
This may sound weird, but we did not check the warranty, contact the
ghost of SunTour, track down an official dealer. I just put a different
derailleur on.

(OK, full disclosure: She first had her usual bike shop do it. They
installed a Shimano FD with an adapter shim to fit her unfashionably
small seat tube. But it wouldn't reliably shift into her granny. I
procured a NOS SunTour unit and put that on for her.)

> All the things you see as some sort of sinister plot are actually a plus for the ordinary consumer -- as proved by all of Tom's odd-ball non-recourse China purchases. And why is it a problem to have equipment that matches?

Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
bikes?

>> About "how civilians buy bikes," (or components, accessories, etc.) your
>> position has been that most people don't let advertising influence them.
>> It's frankly ludicrous to think _we_ need to do market research on that
>> point. Any American consumer products company above the level of a craft
>> show booth employs advertising, because it works and everyone knows it.
>> Some ads and advertising techniques became so influential they're now
>> cultural memes.
>>
>> Again, you may be different, at least to a degree. Our little
>> self-selected discussion group is surely different in many ways than
>> than the population of typical American bike buyers. But I very much
>> doubt that you're immune to advertising.
>
> We're talking about bikes -- not shoes and sweat-shirts.

Nice try, but that's not true. Anyone can read upthread to see.

> What advertising is even seen by the average bicycle consumer?

Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
exist. That's just silly.

>> My bikes are very well suited for their uses. I see no need to change
>> just because something new is on the market. And there certainly have
>> been benefits. Heck, I was able to completely skip the mania about close
>> clearance frames. And I probably saved many hundreds of dollars by not
>> following the fashion-of-the-day for bottom brackets.
>
> It's great you skipped ISIS and Octalink. I was buying those things because I broke cranks and not because I was impulse buying cranks or bikes.
>
> "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.

They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they were bought by
millions of riders who never raced, because they were the bikes that
were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other influencers.

>>
>> What you portray as "retro fashion" is a refusal to adopt racing
>> oriented design choices. But my refusal is based on the simple fact that
>> I don't race. Also I feel no need to hide my age and increasing slowness
>> from myself by buying ever lighter, trickier bikes.
>
> No, retro fashion is cotton-duck handlebar bags and 1960s cranks. Basically historical reenacting. It's far more affected than just riding an OTC modern sport or gravel bike.

I'll admit, one of the two handlebar bags I designed and built is made
of canvas. None of my other handlebar bags are. But none of my bikes
have 1960s cranks. I guess I'm not retro fashionable after all!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 10/12/2021 6:14 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:

<snip>

> If you like ceramic acorns, they buying a ceramic acorn is a benefit
> because it means you get to spend more time admiring your ceramic acorns.
>
> And as long as you don’t have anything better to spend your money on, it’s
> all good.

There's no upside in trying to tell someone else how they should spend
their disposable income. What one person thinks is a ridiculous waste of
money another person gets enjoyment from.

[John B.]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 07:34:27 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Damn! You just can't trust them there spelling checkers. See
"divertimenti", in the above was supposed to have been spelled
"advertisements" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

That statement implies a mistaken assumption. I'm not telling - that is,
commanding - anyone how to spend or not spend their money. But I don't
think all bike-related purchase choices are equally sensible. Some
choices are flat-out, obvious mistakes.

And I do think we should be able to discuss those choices on what
sometimes pretends to be a bicycle discussion group.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 3:56:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> You are probably unusual to a degree because of your unusual connections
> >>>> to the industry. (One famous bike industry guy phones me on my birthday
> >>>> but he doesn't give me stuff. Of course he doesn't own the company any
> >>>> more...)
> >>>>
> >>>> But when you buy your front derailleur, what brands do you search for?
> >>>> Based on what you've said here, you favor Ultegra. Did you even
> >>>> consider, say, the largely unadvertised Ultrashift?
> >>>
> >>> You mean Microshift?
> >> Yes, sorry, I did mean Microshift. Oddly, I don't keep brand names
> >> foremost in my memory. Who could have guessed?
> >>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
> >> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
> >
> > Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.

Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.

>
> I can remember only one failed front derailleur, which I replaced for a
> friend of mine. Her 1970-something SunTour FD broke its return spring.
> This may sound weird, but we did not check the warranty, contact the
> ghost of SunTour, track down an official dealer. I just put a different
> derailleur on.
>
> (OK, full disclosure: She first had her usual bike shop do it. They
> installed a Shimano FD with an adapter shim to fit her unfashionably
> small seat tube. But it wouldn't reliably shift into her granny. I
> procured a NOS SunTour unit and put that on for her.)
> > All the things you see as some sort of sinister plot are actually a plus for the ordinary consumer -- as proved by all of Tom's odd-ball non-recourse China purchases. And why is it a problem to have equipment that matches?
> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
> bikes?

No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together. Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough. It's six f****** dollars. I'm buying the better product.

> >> About "how civilians buy bikes," (or components, accessories, etc.) your
> >> position has been that most people don't let advertising influence them.
> >> It's frankly ludicrous to think _we_ need to do market research on that
> >> point. Any American consumer products company above the level of a craft
> >> show booth employs advertising, because it works and everyone knows it.
> >> Some ads and advertising techniques became so influential they're now
> >> cultural memes.
> >>
> >> Again, you may be different, at least to a degree. Our little
> >> self-selected discussion group is surely different in many ways than
> >> than the population of typical American bike buyers. But I very much
> >> doubt that you're immune to advertising.
> >
> > We're talking about bikes -- not shoes and sweat-shirts.
> Nice try, but that's not true. Anyone can read upthread to see.
> > What advertising is even seen by the average bicycle consumer?
> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
> exist. That's just silly.

I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation. Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't. Do people even buy magazines anymore? Go to your browser and type in "what bicycle should I buy?" It's not very enlightening. As Dr. Science, you should be more specific and identify particular advertisements that you think are coercing purchasers.

> >> My bikes are very well suited for their uses. I see no need to change
> >> just because something new is on the market. And there certainly have
> >> been benefits. Heck, I was able to completely skip the mania about close
> >> clearance frames. And I probably saved many hundreds of dollars by not
> >> following the fashion-of-the-day for bottom brackets.
> >
> > It's great you skipped ISIS and Octalink. I was buying those things because I broke cranks and not because I was impulse buying cranks or bikes.
> >
> > "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.
> They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they were bought by
> millions of riders who never raced, because they were the bikes that
> were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other influencers.

O.K., what influencers and what advertisements? Short-reach brakes were basically foisted upon consumers looking for a sport bike, although I got my wife a Trek 400 way back when, which still had standard reach brakes. She used that as her touring bike. What produced the tight-clearance and short-drop trend, I don't know. Maybe Andrew can shed some light on it.

> >> What you portray as "retro fashion" is a refusal to adopt racing
> >> oriented design choices. But my refusal is based on the simple fact that
> >> I don't race. Also I feel no need to hide my age and increasing slowness
> >> from myself by buying ever lighter, trickier bikes.
> >
> > No, retro fashion is cotton-duck handlebar bags and 1960s cranks. Basically historical reenacting. It's far more affected than just riding an OTC modern sport or gravel bike.
> I'll admit, one of the two handlebar bags I designed and built is made
> of canvas. None of my other handlebar bags are. But none of my bikes
> have 1960s cranks. I guess I'm not retro fashionable after all!

Your ST800 is not fashionable. This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 10/12/2021 8:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Your ST800 is not fashionable. This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.

Nice, but they really need to add the new square chainrings
<https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb15746918/p4pb15746918.jpg>.

[Sepp Ruf]

Your wife will love her new 12sp Kranich so much she will secretly call
it her Kunich! Just look at the pretty flowers matching!
<https://www.ebay.de/itm/203565052193>

Resistance is futile, Jay! Here is your very manly, zero-mixte dream bike:
<https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/utopia-herrenrad-rohloff-vollgefedert/1873029585-217>

[Andre Jute]

.
Don't forget to shave the hair off your ears at the same time as you shave your legs. You don't want to be mistaken for my bonobo Mini-Andre IV on his unicycle.

Andre Jute
Jay won't make it as a standup either. Sad.

[Radey Shouman]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 1:49:14 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> > Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
>> > shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
>> > the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
>> > about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?
>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>

> $20 is a good price for a ceramic acorn. Have you seen the price of
> ceramic acorns lately? I would have gotten two.

Ceramic acorns have much, much better than they used to be. If you have
any old ones laying around I suggest putting them on craigslist and
buying some good, modern ones. Or just take them out and shoot them.

[Radey Shouman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 10/12/2021 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
>>> shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
>>> the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
>>> about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?
>>
>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>

> I count it as evidence that Jay's claim was wrong. He said
> "Most people do consider benefits and detriments." The lady in
> question apparently considered only "I _want_ that ceramic acorn."

I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?

> Many purchases are like that, and that level of thinking is what most
> advertisements strive to promote.

--

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/13/2021 10:13 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 10/12/2021 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:56:50 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you pretend there's no such thing as impulse buying? I'd think most
>>>> shopkeepers would disagree. I was with a certain lady at an art gallery
>>>> the other day. Before I could blink, she paid $20 for a ceramic acorn
>>>> about the size of a baseball. Because of the benefits of a ceramic acorn?
>>>
>>> Do you find that immoral or something?
>>
>> I count it as evidence that Jay's claim was wrong. He said
>> "Most people do consider benefits and detriments." The lady in
>> question apparently considered only "I _want_ that ceramic acorn."
>
> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?

Check the advertisements. I'm sure somebody sells something claiming to
give you that power.

BTW, I know the lady in question very, very well.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:

> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?

Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need. Sigh... I stopped for a coffee and some pastry during todays ride. It was a impulse decision and spent 4.50 euro. Wait, wait I bought a new Ipad a couple of weeks ago to replace my 'old' Ipad air from 2014; slow but still working more or less. I will give it away. What is worse I bought the Ipad Pro 2021 12.9 inch. Totally unnecessary. It is hard to live like Frank.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

It has crossed my mind that I have an Eddy Merckx Elite - an aluminum bike - up for sale on craigslist. At the moment nothing is selling through the other day a guy bought the Lemond steel bike with the Di2 group on it. He paid my full asking price after I turned down several offers. I don't know if they were from him and from what he said, I don't think it was.

There is a steel bike with steel fork on the Internet very like the special Basso Loto I had. When I sell the Eddy, I am wondering if I should buy it, strip the parts off of one of the titanium bikes that has the 10 speed stuff on it, sell off that Ti frameset since the Merlin and Airborne (especially the Airborne) are such good bikes that I won't need any more ti bikes and they sell pretty rapidly. I miss the Basso and a ride-alike might be nice to have. The Basso's available are NOTHING like the one I had.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
>>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
>>>
>>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
>> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.
>
> Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.

It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims advertising doesn't
affect you, purposely picked your replacement derailleur based only on
its brand. It's about as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to
put a huge "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.

>> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
>> bikes?
>
> No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together. Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough. It's six f****** dollars. I'm buying the better product.

Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to praise the
finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll make you so proud! :-)

Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably have to praise
your radio controlled two speed hub instead.

>> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
>> exist. That's just silly.
>
> I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation.

I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.

> Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.

I have, and I watch VERY little TV.

> Do people even buy magazines anymore?

Hell yes! Do you never enter bookstores, grocery stores, pharmacies?

> Go to your browser and type in "what bicycle should I buy?" It's not very enlightening. As Dr. Science, you should be more specific and identify particular advertisements that you think are coercing purchasers.

It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry. Its entire
purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives by doing just that. It
astounds me that you pretend it has no effect.

>>> "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.
>> They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they were bought by
>> millions of riders who never raced, because they were the bikes that
>> were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other influencers.
>
> O.K., what influencers and what advertisements? Short-reach brakes were basically foisted upon consumers looking for a sport bike, although I got my wife a Trek 400 way back when, which still had standard reach brakes. She used that as her touring bike. What produced the tight-clearance and short-drop trend, I don't know. Maybe Andrew can shed some light on it.

I don't know either, any more than I know the precise mechanics behind
the sudden shift to disc brakes. Both produce negligible benefit for the
vast majority of purchases, but both were or are nearly universal within
a certain class of bike.

What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend here, just
as enthusiastically as we're now discussing marketing. I don't remember
what position you took, but I had people yelling at me, saying "less
weight!" and "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
allowed to fit a 28mm tire.

Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit 42mm
tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc brakes. But you're
pretending marketing is not influential?

>> I'll admit, one of the two handlebar bags I designed and built is made
>> of canvas. None of my other handlebar bags are. But none of my bikes
>> have 1960s cranks. I guess I'm not retro fashionable after all!
>
> Your ST800 is not fashionable.

Thank you. I prefer to ignore fashion.

> This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.

If they're really fashionable, they'll soon populate every bike shop you
walk into. Snap one up, Jay!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

BTW, the geometry/component group (abbreviated) is kind of bizarre:

Geometry / Handling / Fit:
These bikes are designed with a low-trail front-end geometry for a bent-elbows riding position with a light touch on the handlebars. If you tend to grip the handlebars firmly, these bikes will feel 'nervous,' as they react even to small handlebar inputs.
Like most Rene Herse bikes, the 80th anniversary models has a horizontal top tube and not much standover clearance, if any. In decades of riding, we have found that this is usually not an issue, since you put only one foot down when you stop.
Need a bike in a size outside the range we offer? Want a specific seat tube angle, generous stand-over clearance, or a geometry or fit that we don't offer? Please talk to a custom builder about making a bike for you – we're not expert bike fitters, and we offer these bikes only in the size range and with geometries where we have experience.
Specifications:
Frame: Kaisei tubing (Extralight, Mule or Oversize)
Click here for more info about our frame tubing
Fork: Kaisei 'TOEI Special' blades, Rene Herse crown, SON SL system
Bottom bracket: Rene Herse pressed-in bearings
Cranks: Rene Herse 12-speed double, titanium crank bolts
Derailleurs, choice of:
Nivex rear, Rene Herse lever-operated front
SRAM Force eTap 12-speed
* * * * *

So, you can get an odd-ball retro rear derailleur . . . or eTap 12sp? Whiplash. How about at a normal Campy/Shimano? And pressed in BB bearings? That makes no sense. The reason I would go retro is to get a BSA BB -- and maybe they mean bearings pressed in threaded cartridge, but it doesn't appear that way. The description of geometry and fit kind of screams "you don't want to buy this bike."

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/13/2021 10:48 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
>> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?
>

> Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need....

Seriously, I understand that problem perfectly.

I think most Americans would partially solve it by buying a much more
luxurious house. But we love where we live and recently put tens of
thousands of dollars into a lovely expansion.

Too much contentment makes it hard to spend money. I keep wondering how
to best choose charities. For example, https://worldbicyclerelief.org/


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank is the guy who would buy the cheapest regardless of reliability or ease of replacement. He would NEVER buy a 9-speed Microshift (which was notoriously unreliable) but if they had a 6 speed counterpart he would jump at it since it is $6 cheaper.

Microshift addressed their unreliability problem starting with the 10 and 11 speed front derailleurs and supposedly greatly improved them.

[sms]

That new iPad, in the U.S. costs around $1200. For that much money you
could have bought a dynamo wheel with a SON hub and a Supernova E3
Triple, with some left over.

But thank you for buying that new iPad Pro 12.9 inch. Why not take some
more of your disposable income and buy an iPhone 13 Pro Max, some
AirPods, and a new Macbook Pro?

[Frank Krygowski]

While I think Jan Heine has had some good and pretty original ideas, I'm
going to shock you by saying that I think his current presentations are
often nuts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:53:01 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
> >>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
> >>>
> >>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
> >> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.
> >
> > Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.
> It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims advertising doesn't
> affect you, purposely picked your replacement derailleur based only on
> its brand. It's about as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to
> put a huge "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.

O.K., if presented with the choice between a Microshift and a Shimano derailleur, with a price difference of $6, which would you buy? They are different designs, different finishes, and one is specifically recommended for your existing group. See, e.g., https://bikesale.com/microshiftcentosfrontderailleur11-speeddoublebraze-onshimanocompatible.aspx versus https://tinyurl.com/z6589eha BTW, I made a mistake. It's a $5 spread. So, for five bucks, you would get some Chinese knock-off or the derailleur designed for your levers?

And what possible advertising have I seen that would drive this choice? I know what I'm getting with the Shimano because I have the Ultegra version of the same derailleur on my Trek.

> >> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
> >> bikes?
> >
> > No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together. Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough. It's six f****** dollars. I'm buying the better product.
> Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to praise the
> finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll make you so proud! :-)
>
> Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably have to praise
> your radio controlled two speed hub instead.

You're changing subjects and making things up. We're talking about a demonstrably better FD -- which is inconsistent with 1X, BTW. I don't want a radio controlled 2-speed hub, but one day I might. Who knows. It may solve a future problem. And if somebody rode by with one, I could care less.

> >> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
> >> exist. That's just silly.
> >
> > I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation.
> I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.
> > Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.
> I have, and I watch VERY little TV.

What bike? I've never seen one, at least since Schwinn released the Stingray.

> > Do people even buy magazines anymore?
> Hell yes! Do you never enter bookstores, grocery stores, pharmacies?
> > Go to your browser and type in "what bicycle should I buy?" It's not very enlightening. As Dr. Science, you should be more specific and identify particular advertisements that you think are coercing purchasers.
> It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry. Its entire
> purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives by doing just that. It
> astounds me that you pretend it has no effect.

You see white whales everywhere and cannot point one out for me. This should be easy. Show me how evil Big Bike is bending the minds of witless consumers to buy useless stuff (by your definition as arbiter of what is "needed" or "useful").

> >>> "Close clearance frames" were a thing starting in the mid to late '70s, and you skipped it only because you didn't buy a racing bike -- and apparently didn't race. They were fine for racing bikes.
> >> They were fine for bikes used only for racing. And they were bought by
> >> millions of riders who never raced, because they were the bikes that
> >> were deemed "best" by the advertising industry and other influencers.
> >
> > O.K., what influencers and what advertisements? Short-reach brakes were basically foisted upon consumers looking for a sport bike, although I got my wife a Trek 400 way back when, which still had standard reach brakes. She used that as her touring bike. What produced the tight-clearance and short-drop trend, I don't know. Maybe Andrew can shed some light on it.
> I don't know either, any more than I know the precise mechanics behind
> the sudden shift to disc brakes. Both produce negligible benefit for the
> vast majority of purchases, but both were or are nearly universal within
> a certain class of bike.
>
> What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend here, just
> as enthusiastically as we're now discussing marketing. I don't remember
> what position you took, but I had people yelling at me, saying "less
> weight!" and "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
> allowed to fit a 28mm tire.
>
> Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit 42mm
> tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc brakes. But you're
> pretending marketing is not influential?

I'm not pretending anything. I'm asking you to point out what advertising, influencing, etc., etc. affects the decision to buy a particular bike. I agree that advertising promotes brand recognition and brand confidence -- and I see absolutely no problem with that. But you have this weird conspiracy theory of advertising -- like Big Bike is out to make you look bad for owning a museum piece. If advertising is making everybody buy something, I would like to see the advertising.

I'm going to ask some civilian friends why they bought what they bought. One of my partners got a custom steel frame, a Specialized Ruby and a Trek Checkpoint ALR -- all great purchases, and I guaranty you that the steel frame was unadvertised.

> >
> > Your ST800 is not fashionable.
> Thank you. I prefer to ignore fashion.
> > This is fashionable: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/bikes/80th-anniversary-rene-herse-bike-down-payment/ A steal at $14K.
> If they're really fashionable, they'll soon populate every bike shop you
> walk into. Snap one up, Jay!

Most shops are not into high fashion like Rene Herse -- which is more like couture than the off-the-rack. You have to plead with Jan Heine to actually own a Rene Herse.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 10/13/2021 9:40 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

It interesting that bicycle manufacturers don't spend any money on mass
media advertising. You might see a print ad in a bicycle magazine, but
I've never seen a TV commercial, or heard a radio ad, from a bicycle
manufacturer. I found one from 1980
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozJw_vZkDts>. Frank must watch a huge
amount of television if he managed to see a bicycle commercial.

[jbeattie]

Pffff. I beat Eric Heiden at a SLAC race. He crashed, along with the front-half of the field. BTW, I saw that commercial in 1980 and bought a bunch of Schwinn bikes, on impulse. Advertising is powerful.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 10/13/2021 10:36 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Pffff. I beat Eric Heiden at a SLAC race. He crashed, along with the front-half of the field.

But no one kissed the pavement where your tires touched.

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:22:25 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> On 10/13/2021 7:48 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:13:24 PM UTC+2, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >
> >> I wish I could read minds like that. Is there something I could buy?
> >
> > Good question. Frank got me into a moral dilemma. I only need 50% of my income to live comfortable (food, clothes, housing, insurance). What to do with the rest? Go on safari to Tanzania for 5000 euro pp to see some f*cking elephants and some lazy lions like a friend of mine? I discarded that idea; I watch the National Geographic channel. Pay off my mortgage? Damn, I already did that. Buy a new bike? Damn again, I have all the bikes I need. Sigh... I stopped for a coffee and some pastry during todays ride. It was a impulse decision and spent 4.50 euro. Wait, wait I bought a new Ipad a couple of weeks ago to replace my 'old' Ipad air from 2014; slow but still working more or less. I will give it away. What is worse I bought the Ipad Pro 2021 12.9 inch. Totally unnecessary. It is hard to live like Frank.
> That new iPad, in the U.S. costs around $1200. For that much money you
> could have bought a dynamo wheel with a SON hub and a Supernova E3
> Triple, with some left over.
>

Because of higher priority this was already taken care of. Well a Son Edelux II instead of the Supernova E3.

> But thank you for buying that new iPad Pro 12.9 inch. Why not take some
> more of your disposable income and buy an iPhone 13 Pro Max, some
> AirPods, and a new Macbook Pro?

Just got a Iphone 12 mini a year ago from my employer. It will last until my retirement. Airpods don't work with my ears. I will lose them within a day. The Ipad Pro is also a replacement for my 2009 Macbook Pro. Still working but stuck in El Capitan. Any other ideas?

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/13/2021 12:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:53:01 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 11:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/12/2021 12:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/11/2021 8:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had a Microshift RD, and it was O.K. Buying the Microshift Centos FD was a $6 savings over a Shimano 105 that matches the rest of my commuter-bike group. It's worth the $6 to me to get branded stuff.
>>>>>> I think that last sentence belies a lot of your previous arguments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? The branded stuff comes with usable warranties, dealer networks, direct contacts (my son contacts at Shimano and not Microshift) -- R&D and a track record.
>>>> ??? And you feel you need all that for a front derailleur? Wow.
>>>
>>> Yes, if I wanted a POS FD, I'd keep the one I have. You're arguing with me over $6.
>> It's not the $6. It's the fact that you, who claims advertising doesn't
>> affect you, purposely picked your replacement derailleur based only on
>> its brand. It's about as clever as the guys who pay $20 or whatever to
>> put a huge "FORD" decal on the back window of their Ford pickup truck.
>
> O.K., if presented with the choice between a Microshift and a Shimano derailleur, with a price difference of $6, which would you buy? They are different designs, different finishes, and one is specifically recommended for your existing group. See, e.g., https://bikesale.com/microshiftcentosfrontderailleur11-speeddoublebraze-onshimanocompatible.aspx versus https://tinyurl.com/z6589eha BTW, I made a mistake. It's a $5 spread. So, for five bucks, you would get some Chinese knock-off or the derailleur designed for your levers?
>
> And what possible advertising have I seen that would drive this choice? I know what I'm getting with the Shimano because I have the Ultegra version of the same derailleur on my Trek.

In real life, if I needed a derailleur I'd probably look in my
derailleur box. If none of those worked I'd probably bike to my closest
LBS and get what they had in stock. I wouldn't worry about compatibility
because friction is compatible with anything. Admittedly, I suppose
they'd more likely have Shimano than Microshift in stock.

But that's OK! Because the advertising you somehow didn't see on that
page said this:

"The Shimano FD-R7000 Front Derailleur offers lighter front shifting
with a natural stroke feel. The derailleur's cage design is optimized to
perform with disc brake road bikes, while multiple cable routing options
and integrated cable tension adjustment allow for precise setup and easy
adjustments. As part of Shimano's 105 R7000 series, this front
derailleur is ideal for beginner road cyclists, combining great value
with trickle-down technology from Shimano's top-tier groups."

By golly, I _want_ lighter, natural stroke feel! I want optimized, and I
want easy adjustments. But do I have to worry that I'm not a "beginner
road cyclist?" Hmm. Maybe I'd better get Dura-Ace...

>>>> Why do you care? Does Portland stage a Concourse d'Elegance for commuter
>>>> bikes?
>>>
>>> No, but you know it will work if it is all part of the same product group, e.g. R7000 series. The components in a series are designed to work well together.

Ah yes. It's designed so when you pull the cable, it moves the
derailleur. So sophisticated!

> Why would I want a Chinese off-brand when, for a mere $6, I can be sure the product will work and work really well? The finish is better, too. My Microshift 9sp RD was pretty rough.

And with the Commuter Bike Concours d'Elegance fast approaching...

>> Ah yes. If we ever meet in person, I'll try to remember to praise the
>> finish of your commuter's front derailleur! I'll make you so proud! :-)
>>
>> Of course, by then you'll have a 1x system. I'll probably have to praise
>> your radio controlled two speed hub instead.
>
> You're changing subjects and making things up. We're talking about a demonstrably better FD -- which is inconsistent with 1X, BTW.

:-) That was my point, Jay! (IOW: whoosh!)

>>>> Please, Jay. You keep trying to pretend bike-related advertising doesn't
>>>> exist. That's just silly.
>>>
>>> I'm serious. Direct me to any bicycle advertising in publications of general circulation.
>> I'm working by memory here, but try Outside magazine.
>>> Have you ever seen a T.V. commercial for a bike? I haven't.
>> I have, and I watch VERY little TV.
>
> What bike? I've never seen one, at least since Schwinn released the Stingray.

OK, try this one:
https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7PEu/giant-bicycles-the-ultimate-cycling-experience

although this one's more fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfQOjl9sk9A

>> It's not a particular advertisement, Jay. It's an industry. Its entire
>> purpose is to influence purchases, and it thrives by doing just that. It
>> astounds me that you pretend it has no effect.
>
> You see white whales everywhere and cannot point one out for me. This should be easy. Show me how evil Big Bike is bending the minds of witless consumers to buy useless stuff (by your definition as arbiter of what is "needed" or "useful").

Disc brakes. Close clearance frames. Octalink. 122" high gears. Have you
been asleep?

>> What I know is, we discussed the close clearance frame trend here, just
>> as enthusiastically as we're now discussing marketing. I don't remember
>> what position you took, but I had people yelling at me, saying "less
>> weight!" and "aerodynamics!" were the tremendous benefits of not being
>> allowed to fit a 28mm tire.
>>
>> Now, just a few years later, people are yelling "You can fit 42mm
>> tires!" to justify heavier and less aerodynamic disc brakes. But you're
>> pretending marketing is not influential?
>

> I'm not pretending anything. I'm asking you to point out what advertising, influencing, etc., etc. affects the decision to buy a particular bike. I agree that advertising promotes brand recognition and brand confidence ...

Why, thank you!

> -- and I see absolutely no problem with that. But you have this weird conspiracy theory of advertising -- like Big Bike is out to make you look bad for owning a museum piece. If advertising is making everybody buy something, I would like to see the advertising.
>
> I'm going to ask some civilian friends why they bought what they bought. One of my partners got a custom steel frame, a Specialized Ruby and a Trek Checkpoint ALR -- all great purchases, and I guaranty you that the steel frame was unadvertised.

Look at that Giant ad again. Because bicycling really is all about
racing and flying through the air on forest trails, isn't it? That's
what everyone does, so everyone should buy the bikes shown in that ad.

> Most shops are not into high fashion like Rene Herse -- which is more like couture than the off-the-rack. You have to plead with Jan Heine to actually own a Rene Herse.

Rene Herse niche is way too "high" to be high fashion. You can't have a
fashion if nobody can buy it.

I've talked before about one of our area's main shops, where I went
trying to help my friend buy a bike. This was just a few years ago.

"28 mm tires? No, you can't put them on this bike. They won't work with
the brakes."

That shop was into fashion - i.e. then-current fashion. So were about
four other shops we hit that day, driving hours to visit them.

BTW, I'm sure that first shop would be selling disc brake gravel bikes
with really fat tires today, because that's the now-current fashion.
Except the shop has closed. It's too bad, because he was a nice guy,
very helpful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Thank you Mr Shouman! Great idea!

I wish I had thought of ceramic bric-a-brac as targets when
I cleared out my mother's house.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

Frank, you don't know what you don't know. Sincerely.

For a 3x6 system a wide swath of cheap FD, new and vintage
will shift acceptably well.

On Mr Beattie's system a 'compatible' from china will be
markedly, annoyingly, less positive. There's significant
engineering in modern changers (cage plate dimensions, ramp
shape and placement, cage stiffness, pivot sleeve quality,
etc) beyond 'compatible' leverage and travel which in itself
can be 'kinds sorta' but not really.

[AMuzi]

or a really nice ceramic acorn...

[jbeattie]

I'll stop now, but you have bad shops. I could always buy an OTC bike with standard drop brakes, cantis, CPs or what-have-you. Trek has always sold the 520, and during the real short-wheelbase days, Specialized was selling Sequoias and an Expedition touring bike. Miyata 1000s were selling like hotcakes -- your ST800 and my ST1000 were easily available in the late '80s and into the '90s. Racing and sport bikes got tighter, and you had to rummage around for something like the Trek 400 with standard drop brakes, but they were out there.

Discs and fat tires are great -- my gravel bike is better than my 1970s racing bike. Lighter, more gears, more comfortable. It's better by any metric except simplicity. Yes, you have to plumb-in the brakes, but its a burden I'm willing to bear.

-- Jay Beattie.