WSJ article on Dutch helmet-resistance
carl...@comcast.net
"Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
"But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Tom Sherman °_°
> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>
> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
The Dutch must not realize that Magic Foam Bicycle Hats™ prevent over
70% of *leg* injuries.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
landotter
> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>
> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
The article states that the Dutch don't have a particularly high rate
of head injury via bike riding, then goes on to say that adults are
hard headed (ha) to not wear a helmet.
It's a classic concern troll ploy. Cycling isn't dangerous, but if you
don't wear a helmet you don't care about safety.
Showering isn't dangerous but if you don't...
Lou Holtman
Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
up with that idea...
Lou
Duane Hébert
> Op 3-11-2010 7:19, carl...@comcast.net schreef:
>> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
>> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>>
>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
>> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>>
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304248704575574250616160146.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>
> Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
> Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
> up with that idea...
>
> Lou
"The Netherlands boasts the world's highest per capita use of bicycles.
It has thousands of miles of paved bicycle paths, with traffic lights
specifically for riders. It is dotted with sheltered bike parking.
Trains have bike compartments. Bikers get priority on most roads, and
youngsters take biking tests."
landotter
> On 11/3/2010 12:52 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
> >> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>
> >> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> >> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
> >> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> > Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
> > Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
> > up with that idea...
>
> > Lou
>
> "The Netherlands boasts the world's highest per capita use of bicycles.
> It has thousands of miles of paved bicycle paths, with traffic lights
> specifically for riders. It is dotted with sheltered bike parking.
> Trains have bike compartments. Bikers get priority on most roads, and
> youngsters take biking tests."
Those things are too abstract, they need to wear a symbol of caring
about safety on their heads, regardless of the efficacy or risk.
Lou Holtman
> On 11/3/2010 12:52 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> Op 3-11-2010 7:19, carl...@comcast.net schreef:
>>> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
>>> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>>>
>>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
>>> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
>>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>>>
>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304248704575574250616160146.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Carl Fogel
>>
>>
>> Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
>> Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
>> up with that idea...
>>
>> Lou
>
> "The Netherlands boasts the world's highest per capita use of bicycles.
> It has thousands of miles of paved bicycle paths, with traffic lights
> specifically for riders. It is dotted with sheltered bike parking.
> Trains have bike compartments. Bikers get priority on most roads, and
> youngsters take biking tests."
>
>
Exactly, and that without wearing helmets.
Let me tell you a story.
When I was in highschool (middelbare school in Dutch), all the teenagers
between 16 and 18 years old rode mopeds (brommers in Dutch). We could
ride them without helmets up to 40 km/hr. At some moment helmets became
mandatory and guess what, within a eyeblink mopeds almost vanished
completely. When they introduced mopeds that couldn't go faster that 25
km/hr and could be rode without helmets, mopeds got popular again by
teenagers. But of course upgrade kits got available very soon....
Mandatory helmets for bicycles in the Netherlands is not gonna happen.
Period.
Lou
Duane Hébert
> Op 3-11-2010 18:10, Duane H�bert schreef:
>> On 11/3/2010 12:52 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> Op 3-11-2010 7:19, carl...@comcast.net schreef:
>>>> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
>>>> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>>>>
>>>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
>>>> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
>>>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>>>>
>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304248704575574250616160146.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Carl Fogel
>>>
>>>
>>> Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
>>> Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
>>> up with that idea...
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> "The Netherlands boasts the world's highest per capita use of bicycles.
>> It has thousands of miles of paved bicycle paths, with traffic lights
>> specifically for riders. It is dotted with sheltered bike parking.
>> Trains have bike compartments. Bikers get priority on most roads, and
>> youngsters take biking tests."
>>
>>
>
> Exactly, and that without wearing helmets.
facilities <ducking...>
> Let me tell you a story.
> When I was in highschool (middelbare school in Dutch), all the teenagers
> between 16 and 18 years old rode mopeds (brommers in Dutch). We could
> ride them without helmets up to 40 km/hr. At some moment helmets became
> mandatory and guess what, within a eyeblink mopeds almost vanished
> completely. When they introduced mopeds that couldn't go faster that 25
> km/hr and could be rode without helmets, mopeds got popular again by
> teenagers. But of course upgrade kits got available very soon....
> Mandatory helmets for bicycles in the Netherlands is not gonna happen.
> Period.
Yeah, I was just adding that part about the facilities to show
that the Netherlands isn't typical compared to North America.
Jay Beattie
> Op 3-11-2010 18:10, Duane H bert schreef:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11/3/2010 12:52 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
> >>> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>
> >>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> >>> nonexistent and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
> >>> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
> >>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>
>
> >>> Cheers,
>
> >>> Carl Fogel
>
> >> Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
> >> Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
> >> up with that idea...
>
> >> Lou
>
> > "The Netherlands boasts the world's highest per capita use of bicycles.
> > It has thousands of miles of paved bicycle paths, with traffic lights
> > specifically for riders. It is dotted with sheltered bike parking.
> > Trains have bike compartments. Bikers get priority on most roads, and
> > youngsters take biking tests."
>
> Exactly, and that without wearing helmets.
> Let me tell you a story.
> When I was in highschool (middelbare school in Dutch), all the teenagers
> between 16 and 18 years old rode mopeds (brommers in Dutch). We could
> ride them without helmets up to 40 km/hr. At some moment helmets became
> mandatory and guess what, within a eyeblink mopeds almost vanished
> completely. When they introduced mopeds that couldn't go faster that 25
> km/hr and could be rode without helmets, mopeds got popular again by
> teenagers. But of course upgrade kits got available very soon....
> Mandatory helmets for bicycles in the Netherlands is not gonna happen.
> Period.
>
I have to ask -- what did the kids who quit riding mopeds do for
transportation? Did they drive cars, ride bikes, skateboard? I don't
get the big issue with helmets -- why that would be a deal breaker for
cruising around on a moped. It's not like you're working up a sweat.
I understand that some people think that riding with a helmet makes
them look like a dork, or musses their hair or makes them hot -- so
they don't ride. That's the part I don't understand. I rode a bike
with a CAM walker fracture boot on one leg or the other for over six
months. http://orthotape.com/cam_walker.asp You would have to put a
boat anchor on my head before I quit riding. -- Jay Beattie.
Duane Hébert
> On Nov 3, 11:22 am, Lou Holtman<lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>> Op 3-11-2010 18:10, Duane H bert schreef:
> I have to ask -- what did the kids who quit riding mopeds do for
> transportation? Did they drive cars, ride bikes, skateboard? I don't
> get the big issue with helmets -- why that would be a deal breaker for
> cruising around on a moped. It's not like you're working up a sweat.
>
> I understand that some people think that riding with a helmet makes
> them look like a dork, or musses their hair or makes them hot -- so
> they don't ride. That's the part I don't understand. I rode a bike
> with a CAM walker fracture boot on one leg or the other for over six
> months. http://orthotape.com/cam_walker.asp You would have to put a
> boat anchor on my head before I quit riding. -- Jay Beattie.
My 13 year old son has no problem with helmets. He grew up with them.
Cycling, skating, skiing etc. You won't get him to wear lycra shorts
though. He'd definitely not ride if they were mandatory <g>.
Guess it just depends on the kids.
Lou Holtman
We went back to bicycles and wait until we got our drivers licence at 18
year.
Did they drive cars, ride bikes, skateboard? I don't
> get the big issue with helmets -- why that would be a deal breaker for
> cruising around on a moped. It's not like you're working up a sweat.
No but we went everywhere with our mopeds and we had to carry our
helmets with us. Could not leave them because they got stolen.
The girls worried about their haircuts.
>
> I understand that some people think that riding with a helmet makes
> them look like a dork, or musses their hair or makes them hot -- so
> they don't ride. That's the part I don't understand. I rode a bike
> with a CAM walker fracture boot on one leg or the other for over six
> months. http://orthotape.com/cam_walker.asp You would have to put a
> boat anchor on my head before I quit riding.
Figure a 72 year old lady that goes to a grocery store, with and without
a helmet.
Figure all the people who go by bike to the trainstation a take the
train from there to their work.
Figure all the kids who go to school by bike.We have to install lockers
for all the helmets. Thousand of them on every medium size highschool.
etc. etc.
Helmets are not practical and are unnecessary. Leave us alone please ;-)
Lou
Andre Jute
> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>
> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Don't be such a provincial jerk, Carl. The cycling milieu and motorist
mindset in The Netherlands is completely different from that in
States. The Dutch don't need helmets, Americans do. Read the New York
report, and if you don't have the mental staying power, read my
idiot's summary of it made for Krygowski. I assume you can google your
way to it. -- Andre Jute
SMS
> On 11/3/2010 12:52 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> Op 3-11-2010 7:19, carl...@comcast.net schreef:
>>> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
>>> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>>>
>>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
>>> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
>>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>>>
>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304248704575574250616160146.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Carl Fogel
>>
>>
>> Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
>> Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
>> up with that idea...
>>
>> Lou
>
> "The Netherlands boasts the world's highest per capita use of bicycles.
> It has thousands of miles of paved bicycle paths, with traffic lights
> specifically for riders. It is dotted with sheltered bike parking.
> Trains have bike compartments. Bikers get priority on most roads, and
> youngsters take biking tests."
Exactly. That's covered in Myth 29 at
"http://sites.google.com/site/bicyclehelmetmythsandfacts/".
I think we all wish that other countries could have a cycling
environment like the Netherlands, but until then, helmets are a necessity.
John Forrester, author of Effective Cycling, writes: "The maximum safe
speed for Dutch voonerven has been given as 8 mph. Average travel speeds
on Dutch urban bikepaths are universally described as very slow,
probably below 10 mph. On the other hand, speeds of American bicycle
commuters, now easily measured with electronic speedometers, typically
are in the 16-22 mph range. Dutch cyclists tolerate their low speeds for
two reasons: travel times are not great because they travel short
distances and motoring is so inconvenient that it would probably take
longer. American cyclists would not tolerate Dutch speeds because of the
longer distances they must travel. _The facilities, traffic rules and
speed-controlling attitudes that are acceptable to one nation are
obviously unacceptable to another_" (underlining mine).
Ben Pfaff
> Figure all the kids who go to school by bike.We have to install
> lockers for all the helmets. Thousand of them on every medium size
> highschool. etc. etc.
Why don't they lock their helmets to their bikes? That's what I
do with my helmet.
--
"Mon peu de succès près des femmes est toujours venu de les trop aimer."
--Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Andre Jute
> On 11/3/2010 12:52 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
> >> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>
> >> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> >> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
> >> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> > Whoe, ha,ha,ha..
> > Dutch wearing helmets for daily use cycling? Must be a foreigner to come
> > up with that idea...
>
> > Lou
>
> "The Netherlands boasts the world's highest per capita use of bicycles.
> It has thousands of miles of paved bicycle paths, with traffic lights
> specifically for riders. It is dotted with sheltered bike parking.
> Trains have bike compartments. Bikers get priority on most roads, and
> youngsters take biking tests."
And a motorist who runs down a bicyclist had better have a very good
explanation. The American explanation of 'I didn't see him and a
cyclist shouldn't be on the road anyway,' will earn a stiff jail
sentence. -- Andre Jute
Andre Jute
> When I was in highschool (middelbare school in Dutch), all the teenagers
> between 16 and 18 years old rode mopeds (brommers in Dutch).
Heh-heeeh! With us it was small motorbikes, 50cc (probably actually
49cc) Honda and Yamaha. They sounded like farm creamery machines, so I
called them 'snot separators' because they were just fast enough if
you rode them without a helmet -- which I don't remember being
required for bikes under 50cc -- to cause streams of phlegm to fly.
The school bully offered to beat me up for the name, which he and his
gang felt detracted from their cool poses on their... snot separators!
-- Andre Jute
Jay Beattie
> > boat anchor on my head before I quit riding.
>
> Figure a 72 year old lady that goes to a grocery store, with and without
> a helmet.
> Figure all the people who go by bike to the trainstation a take the
> train from there to their work.
> Figure all the kids who go to school by bike.We have to install lockers
> for all the helmets. Thousand of them on every medium size highschool.
> etc. etc.
> Helmets are not practical and are unnecessary. Leave us alone please ;-)
Hey, I don't care if the Netherlands mandates helmets or not. I just
didn't understand why someone would abandon a mode of transportation
just because he or she had to wear a helmet. The Netherlands is
probably the last place where riders need helmets, but if Queen
Beatrix told me to where a helmet, I'd do it. I wouldn't sit up in my
stone house looking down at all those sweet bicycle avenues and refuse
to ride. I'd put on my Orange helmet and go.
http://www.chubbyscruisers.com/shop/nutcase-street-helmet-supersolids-dutch-orange-matte-finish-p-898.html
I'd go a wholloping 10kmh down the avenue on my beater town bike with
baskets, but I'd go! -- Jay Beattie.
SMS
> Lou Holtman<lhollaatd...@planet.nl> writes:
>
>> Figure all the kids who go to school by bike.We have to install
>> lockers for all the helmets. Thousand of them on every medium size
>> highschool. etc. etc.
>
> Why don't they lock their helmets to their bikes? That's what I
> do with my helmet.
Of course you are aware that Lou is just kidding. No school installs
lockers for helmets. Look on any campus where there are a lot of bicycle
commuters and you'll see the helmets hanging from the handlebars,
usually unlocked, occasionally locked.
AMuzi
My current girlfriend is Dutch so for the near future I'll
use her helmet exemption when I ride. Is that OK with you?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Chalo
>
> I have to ask -- what did the kids who quit riding mopeds do for
> transportation? Did they drive cars, ride bikes, skateboard? I don't
> get the big issue with helmets -- why that would be a deal breaker for
> cruising around on a moped. It's not like you're working up a sweat.
>
> I understand that some people think that riding with a helmet makes
> them look like a dork, or musses their hair or makes them hot -- so
> they don't ride. That's the part I don't understand. I rode a bike
> with a CAM walker fracture boot on one leg or the other for over six
> months. http://orthotape.com/cam_walker.asp You would have to put a
> boat anchor on my head before I quit riding.
Okay, look at it this way. Say there is a grocery store in your
neighborhood that won't let you in unless you are wearing ANSI
certified protective eyewear with side shields, steel-toed boots with
oil-resistant non-slip soles, and a hard hat.
All these things reduce the risk of injuries that foreseeably could
happen to you-- that have been demonstrated to occur repeatedly-- in a
grocery store. And wearing those required items can be considered to
offer some protection in almost any circumstances whatsoever. And the
items are inexpensive and easy to wear. You can even buy them right
at the store in question.
So do you wear them to do your grocery shopping, or do you simply do
your shopping another grocery store that doesn't require them? And
how would you regard a person who decided it was not only expedient,
but actually necessary to wear such safety gear to address the many
risks of grocery shopping?
Chalo
Chalo
>
> Carl Fogel wrote:
> >
> > "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> > nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
> > bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
> > the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
> >
> > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230424870457557425061616...
>
> mindset in The Netherlands is completely different from that in
> States. The Dutch don't need helmets, Americans do.
You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
for the rest of the world.
Chalo
James
Weapon of mass protection?
JS.
(PeteCresswell)
>Why don't they lock their helmets to their bikes? That's what I
>do with my helmet.
In Hawaii, after they passed a mandatory motorcycle helmet law,
you couldn't leave a helmet unattended - locked or otherwise -
for even twenty minutes without a good chance of it not being
there when you got back.
--
PeteCresswell
damyth
> > boat anchor on my head before I quit riding.
>
> Figure a 72 year old lady that goes to a grocery store, with and without
> a helmet.
> Figure all the people who go by bike to the trainstation a take the
> train from there to their work.
> Figure all the kids who go to school by bike.We have to install lockers
> for all the helmets. Thousand of them on every medium size highschool.
> etc. etc.
> Helmets are not practical and are unnecessary. Leave us alone please ;-)
>
> Lou
Bah. You clearly don't understand what's at stake here.
Helmet manufacturers such as Bell, Limar, Lazer, etc. are probably
saying to themselves "Look at all the Dutch cyclists (big untapped
market!!), if we can only make helmets mandatory there! (We'd make a
killing!)"
You need no further proof of this since this article appeared, of all
places, in the Wall St. Journal, a business-oriented paper. It's a
wonder why there has not yet been an article in WSJ on all the Chinese
cyclists that don't wear helmets.
(PeteCresswell)
>You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
>improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
>helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
>for the rest of the world.
Lotta years ago, I quit riding my road bike when I realized that
my bud's practice of carrying a loaded .44 magnum in his
motorcycle's gas tank bag was starting to sound reasonable to me.
--
PeteCresswell
Ben C
[...]
> Hey, I don't care if the Netherlands mandates helmets or not. I just
> didn't understand why someone would abandon a mode of transportation
> just because he or she had to wear a helmet.
That's because you're an enthusiast. Most of those Netherlanders are
just going to the shops.
Dutch people on racing bikes wearing lycra often do wear helmets. It's
an accoutremaw as Gene put it.
damyth
> boat anchor on my head before I quit riding. -- Jay Beattie.
Sometimes I really do wonder. Cycling to do errands is becoming a
real chore these days, even before you step out the door. It's bad
enough to have to ride around with a heavy Kryptonite lock. Now I
gotta carry around lights, and put on my cleats just to step out.
Never mind the helmet and the sweatband.
When did cycling become this complicated? In some respects, I almost
feel like a woman, gotta spend an hour putting my "face" on before
stepping outside. Then when you arrive at your destination you gotta
spend a few more additional minutes to remove the front wheel for
locking purposes.
Once I was straddling my bike, not going anywhere, just waiting for
some buddies, and I fainted (probably due to low blood sugar, cause I
hadn't eaten). When I came to, I found that my Giro helmet cracked in
half. After that incident I figured out that the helmet was just a
fashion statement and didn't offer much, if any, protection.
Andre Jute
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Nov 3, 6:19 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
> >> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>
> >> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> >> nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
> >> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
> >> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>
> >>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230424870457557425061616...
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> > Don't be such a provincial jerk, Carl. The cycling milieu and motorist
> > mindset in The Netherlands is completely different from that in
> > States. The Dutch don't need helmets, Americans do. Read the New York
> > report, and if you don't have the mental staying power, read my
> > idiot's summary of it made for Krygowski. I assume you can google your
> > way to it. -- Andre Jute
>
> My current girlfriend is Dutch
Gee, have you told her she's slated for replacement?
> so for the near future I'll
> use her helmet exemption when I ride.
And that she'll be gone soon?
> Is that OK with you?
I don't know if it is okay. I need more data. This is about the
relation on the road between cars and bikes. Do you have cars out
there in the boonies of Madison?
Andre Jute
Just the fax, mam, or you could send an e-mail
Andre Jute
> You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
> improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
> helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
> for the rest of the world.
>
> Chalo
Now you're getting the hang of driver education, Chalo. -- Andre Jute
Jay Beattie
Well, if milk were $.60 a gallon, I'd wear them -- and gloves, too.
It would be cheaper than a Costco membership. Plus, I have seen
plenty of bars where the clothing you describe is worn voluntarily --
along with studded chokers, chaps and thongs.
I don't support MHLs, but I still find it amazing that there are
people who would give up a mode of transportation because they have to
wear a 6 oz helmet. -- Jay Beattie.
Lou Holtman
Show me that picture please.
Lou
AMuzi
>>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
>>> nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
>>> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
>>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230424870457557425061616...
> Andre Jute wrote:
>> Don't be such a provincial jerk, Carl. The cycling milieu and motorist
>> mindset in The Netherlands is completely different from that in
>> States. The Dutch don't need helmets, Americans do.
Chalo wrote:
> You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
> improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
> helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
> for the rest of the world.
As a cyclist and gun owner, I am the absolute last person to
advocate carrying on a bike. I've got provocation a couple
of times every day.
Smack a door and dent it with a lock? Probably reasonable.
Splatter texter's brains all over her stupid electronics
laden piece of crap? Most juries would not be sympathetic,
however just it may be.
James
> Chalo wrote:
> > You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
> > improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
> > helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
> > for the rest of the world.
>
> As a cyclist and gun owner, I am the absolute last person to
> advocate carrying on a bike. I've got provocation a couple
> of times every day.
Mine are too big to carry, being long arms, but the .338 Win Mag would
probably stop a vehicle, if the projectile struck a vital bit. The
recoil would possibly shunt you backward a bit, on a bike.
As a lad I used to cycle to nearby fields with my archery gear and
shoot rabbits and foxes. Thought nothing of riding through suburbia
with a 50lb recurve in my backpack (it is a take down model) or later
with a 75lb compound bow. The fields are now covered by houses and
the rabbits displaced further afield.
James "Nostalgic" Steward.
Tom Sherman °_°
grocery store (with the possible exception of the boots).
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
Andre Jute
> As a lad I used to cycle to nearby fields with my archery gear and
> shoot rabbits and foxes. Thought nothing of riding through suburbia
> with a 50lb recurve in my backpack (it is a take down model) or later
> with a 75lb compound bow. The fields are now covered by houses and
> the rabbits displaced further afield.
>
> James "Nostalgic" Steward.
Today the Victoria cops will probably surround you with a SWAT team
and call up a helicopter to take you out with rockets, then tell your
mother you have a thick file as a terrorist. -- AJ
Duane Hebert
"Tom Sherman °_°" <twsherm...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote in message
news:iar762$eao$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 11/3/2010 1:19 AM, carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets Is Like Tilting at Windmills"
>> "Bicycle-Loving Dutch Hate Headgear; 'We Are Not in Germany'"
>>
>> nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
>
> The Dutch must not realize that Magic Foam Bicycle Hats™ prevent over 70%
> of *leg* injuries.
Someone posted this link below:
http://sites.google.com/site/bicyclehelmetmythsandfacts/
See numbers 11 and 20.
Did you know this author? Seems like he personalized this
page for you <g>
SMS
> Hey, I don't care if the Netherlands mandates helmets or not. I just
> didn't understand why someone would abandon a mode of transportation
> just because he or she had to wear a helmet. The Netherlands is
> probably the last place where riders need helmets, but if Queen
> Beatrix told me to where a helmet, I'd do it. I wouldn't sit up in my
> stone house looking down at all those sweet bicycle avenues and refuse
> to ride. I'd put on my Orange helmet and go.
While mandatory helmet laws are probably a bad idea, in the places
they've been implemented there has never been a decrease in cycling as a
result. See
<http://sites.google.com/site/bicyclehelmetmythsandfacts/#TOC-Myth-8:-Studies-show-that-when-helm>.
James
Riding with the compound bow was a little ungainly, and I recall
riding along the footpath with the bow in one hand, a back pack on and
arrows strapped to the top tube of the mountain bike. I had a helmet
on, but shouldn't have been on the foot path. Mr. Plod stopped me and
asked a few questions. He didn't like the bow, repeatedly calling it
a crossbow - ignorant twit. However after a few minutes of
explanation of my travel plans, he let me go with a warning, and made
sure I rode on the road.
Yes, I think today it would be a different story, sadly.
JS.
SMS
Indeed, many items on that site are the direct results of the
intentional mis-statements of the AHZs on Usenet.
(PeteCresswell)
> When I came to, I found that my Giro helmet cracked in
>half. After that incident I figured out that the helmet was just a
>fashion statement and didn't offer much, if any, protection.
If it was on your head at the time, wouldn't it be reasonable to
assume that the force that went into cracking it would have gone
into your head instead?
I ask this after having seen a video of a guy getting killed as
he fell off of a skateboard doing all of 2 mph. He slapped his
melon on the curb - and not that hard by all appearances - and
that was it for him.
--
PeteCresswell
damyth
Yeah, the helmet protected me just fine when I was at 0mph (just
standing, wasn't going anywhere). If I'd been traveling at say 15mph
(and consequently fell), you think the same helmet that cracked in
half would have save my noggin?
I mean seriously, at this rate, why isn't a foam lid mandatory while
walking? A person walking was going faster than I was when I fainted.
Jay Beattie
I got stopped and detained by the TSA because I had a spoke wrench on
my key chain -- and they didn't know what it was or whether it could
be used to wreak havoc on the flight crew. One of these:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/deanlung/2930440697/ Fly this plane to
Cuba, or I will tighten your nipples! -- Jay Beattie.
P.S., that tool is really handy and has saved a number of rides.
Frank Krygowski
Yesterday, a fellow student in a class I'm taking asked about a
particular neighborhood in the city. "Isn't that dangerous? If I
were going there, I'd carry my gun."
I told him I ride my bike through there frequently, and have done so
for decades, with never a problem. I never carry a gun.
I guess he needs one to avoid feeling afraid. He's basically a nice
guy, so I won't call him a coward. But what do you call someone who's
so terrified of events that are so extremely unlikely?
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> Once I was straddling my bike, not going anywhere, just waiting for
> some buddies, and I fainted (probably due to low blood sugar, cause I
> hadn't eaten). When I came to, I found that my Giro helmet cracked in
> half. After that incident I figured out that the helmet was just a
> fashion statement and didn't offer much, if any, protection.
Wrong conclusion! You're supposed to say "See? It saved my life!"
and exhort us all to never stand around without wearing a CPSC-
approved helmet!
- Frank Krygowski
SMS
> On Nov 3, 4:32 pm, "(PeteCresswell)"<x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>> Per damyth:
>>
>>> When I came to, I found that my Giro helmet cracked in
>>> half. After that incident I figured out that the helmet was just a
>>> fashion statement and didn't offer much, if any, protection.
>>
>> If it was on your head at the time, wouldn't it be reasonable to
>> assume that the force that went into cracking it would have gone
>> into your head instead?
>>
>> I ask this after having seen a video of a guy getting killed as
>> he fell off of a skateboard doing all of 2 mph. He slapped his
>> melon on the curb - and not that hard by all appearances - and
>> that was it for him.
>> --
>> PeteCresswell
>
> Yeah, the helmet protected me just fine when I was at 0mph (just
> standing, wasn't going anywhere). If I'd been traveling at say 15mph
> (and consequently fell), you think the same helmet that cracked in
> half would have save my noggin?
You'd be a lot better off with a helmet at 15mph than without one. It's
never about completely eliminating the possibility of injury, it's about
minimizing the injury by taking reasonable precautions.
> I mean seriously, at this rate, why isn't a foam lid mandatory while
> walking? A person walking was going faster than I was when I fainted.
See
<http://sites.google.com/site/bicyclehelmetmythsandfacts/#TOC-Myth-16:-Other-activities-besides-b>
Frank Krygowski
> real chore these days, even before you step out the door. It's bad
> enough to have to ride around with a heavy Kryptonite lock. Now I
> gotta carry around lights, and put on my cleats just to step out.
> Never mind the helmet and the sweatband.
>
> When did cycling become this complicated? In some respects, I almost
> feel like a woman, gotta spend an hour putting my "face" on before
> stepping outside. Then when you arrive at your destination you gotta
> spend a few more additional minutes to remove the front wheel for
> locking purposes.
For the record, the great majority of my riding is done in ordinary
clothing. That's one of the reasons my bikes have toe clips, not
clipless pedals. My preparation consists of two safety pins to
control my pants cuffs (assuming I'm in long pants) and usually,
clipping on my eyeglass mirror.
Regarding locks, mine is a homemade coated cable, plus a small padlock
with a key. This isn't a high crime area, and I never leave the bike
unattended for hours at a time, unless it's in a secure location (out
of sight, or under someone's watchful eye). The only times I've used
stouter locks have been in unfamiliar cities and foreign tours,
figuring I don't know the culture and so can't judge bike security.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
> I just
> didn't understand why someone would abandon a mode of transportation
> just because he or she had to wear a helmet. The Netherlands is
> probably the last place where riders need helmets, but if Queen
> Beatrix told me to where a helmet, I'd do it.
Jay, you consistently underestimate how uncommon your own situation
is.
You are a person who's passionate about riding. It seems to be a
major factor in your identity. You're at the right end of some sort
of bell curve. Millions of others are much less committed to riding a
bike, and adding a requirement they don't like will certainly put many
of them off riding.
There are probably dozens of reasons people don't like helmets. We've
listed many of them. Whether or not you understand the reasons, those
reasons are valid for those who state them. And they are common
enough that enforced helmet laws measurably discourage cycling. (No
matter what Mr. Scharf pretends.)
- Frank Krygowski
DirtRoadie
> "Getting These Cyclists to Use Helmets .....
Carl-
Nicely done!
DR
Andre Jute
I bought a Kindle e-reader to read in the bath because thick reference
books and thicker novels were giving me sore wrists. I'm saving my
wrists so my bike can give me RSI... So I'm reading the Kindle fora,
where I find:
The cabin staff on one internal US flight banned the reading of the
Kindle. Not electronic pads in general, just the Kindle by name. The
Kindlers were speculating that Barnes & Noble paid the stew, or maybe
Jeff Bezos threw his weight around on her flight and pissed her off...
Andre Jute
LOL
Tom Sherman °_°
Foam Bicycle Hats™.
Jay Beattie
I agree that I am an exceptional person, but let's not talk about me.
I'm talking about all those Dutch bicycle roads that go right to the
store, school, dope/coffee house, etc. Would you stop riding your
bike on those (apparently) direct routes just because someone told you
to wear a helmet? I am NOT advocating for a Dutch helmet law, but
really, If someone told you that you could put on a helmet and ride
300 meters to the store OR get on the road, ride 2K through winding
city streets with uber-high gas prices, heavy traffic, etc., what
would you do? Or even more importantly after the election, what would
Jesus do? http://www.flickr.com/photos/26297839@N05/2573325386/ Note
the headgear. And this is a dude that can come back from the dead!
http://3story.org/stories/post/2006/06/18/helmet
SMS
> I don't support MHLs, but I still find it amazing that there are
> people who would give up a mode of transportation because they have to
> wear a 6 oz helmet. -- Jay Beattie.
What makes you believe that there are such people? Look at all the
statistics from all over the world. A MHL has never resulted in fewer
cyclists. It's almost like the threat by so many left-wingers to move to
Canada if the Republicans take over the U.S.. They never move, but they
make a lot of noise.
Lou Holtman
> the headgear. And this is a dude that can come back from the dead!http://3story.org/stories/post/2006/06/18/helmet- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
It is just a hypothetical question we are discussing here. It is not
gonna happen here as I said. Come over here and you understand it
after half an hour. Do you think a nice lady who went to the
hairdresser on her bike, like she does now, will do that if she has to
wear a helmet the way home? Do you think a couple of friends nicely
dressed go to a restaurant by bike when they have to wear a helmet? I
don't think so. They will take their car I'm sure (for you information
cabs are very expensive here). Helmets are not necessary here for
daily bike use. To make helmet use mandatory for Dutch cyclist is
like:
- forbid arm possesion for Americans because it is dangerous,
- a general speed limit on the Autobahns for Germans because it is
dangerous,
- forbid fish and chips for the English because it is unhealthy,
etc. etc.
Lou
Lou
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Say there is a grocery store in your
> > neighborhood that won't let you in unless you are wearing ANSI
> > certified protective eyewear with side shields, steel-toed boots with
> > oil-resistant non-slip soles, and a hard hat.
> >
> > All these things reduce the risk of injuries that foreseeably could
> > happen to you-- that have been demonstrated to occur repeatedly-- in a
> > grocery store. And wearing those required items can be considered to
> > offer some protection in almost any circumstances whatsoever. And the
> > items are inexpensive and easy to wear. You can even buy them right
> > at the store in question.
> >
> > So do you wear them to do your grocery shopping, or do you simply do
> > your shopping another grocery store that doesn't require them? And
> > how would you regard a person who decided it was not only expedient,
> > but actually necessary to wear such safety gear to address the many
> > risks of grocery shopping?
>
> people who would give up a mode of transportation because they have to
> wear a 6 oz helmet.
Giving up a mode of transportation is not the same as giving up
transportation. If the authorities demand that you do something
retarded, you simply switch to another less encumbered means of
getting around. Most Dutch bicycle riders are not cycling enthusiasts
per se; they ride bikes because it makes good sense in their
situation. If mandatory helmet wear laws cause cycling to make less
sense for them, they'll switch to something else.
If you (for instance) had an electric kick scooter that you found
convenient for some short distance trips, but then the local
authorities required that you wear a G-string to ride it or else pay a
fine, you'd probably just let it go, wouldn't you? Many of us have
concluded that cycle helmets make no more sense than G-strings (and
they look even dumber).
Chalo
Lou Holtman
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
Exactly.
Lou
(PeteCresswell)
>Yeah, the helmet protected me just fine when I was at 0mph (just
>standing, wasn't going anywhere). If I'd been traveling at say 15mph
>(and consequently fell), you think the same helmet that cracked in
>half would have save my noggin?
I'm no expert but having taken my share of falls (including
getting hit by a drunk on my Yamaha YDS-6 doing about 50 mph) my
experience is that the head's impact speed on the pavement or
whatever is far, far less than (maybe even unrelated to...) the
speed at which the crash occurred. Also, there's a big diff
between the body's weight being behind it and not. Spinal cord
injury and all that....
>
>I mean seriously, at this rate, why isn't a foam lid mandatory while
>walking? A person walking was going faster than I was when I fainted.
I wouldn't advocate mandatory helmets for *anything*, *ever*.
Having said that, when is the last time you fell and hit you head
while walking? I'm a total klutz, and I can't recall that ever
happening to me. I can't think of a single person I've known
that it happened to either. I'm sure that people slip on icy
pavement... and somebody I know probably has... but I just never
heard about it... but it's certainly an anomaly.
OTOH, if you ride a bike, you're going down - maybe sooner, maybe
later, but you're going down.
I've ridden tens of thousands of miles with the wind in my hair.
Right now, I happen to be on a helmet kick. But next year I might
be bare-headed.
I would re-iterate, I'm against mandatory helmets for *anything*,
*ever*.
--
PeteCresswell
(PeteCresswell)
>Regarding locks, mine is a homemade coated cable, plus a small padlock
>with a key. This isn't a high crime area, and I never leave the bike
>unattended for hours at a time, unless it's in a secure location (out
>of sight, or under someone's watchful eye). The only times I've used
>stouter locks have been in unfamiliar cities and foreign tours,
>figuring I don't know the culture and so can't judge bike security.
I made a conscious decision to not use anything except coated
cable.
My Rationale:
- The coated cable prevents impulse/opportunistic theft.
Bubba's not going to throw my bike into the back of his F150
and some kid with emotional problems isn't going to jump on
it and ride away for the amusement of his friends.
- OTOH, the guy who steals bikes in Philly and ships them up to
NYC for sale is going to cut that cable - and, I assume,
anything else - in about two seconds....
OK, maybe two minutes if he has to use a grinder on a
heavy chain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbklkFuFk-4
- Using something stronger than coated cable will eventually
delude me into thinking that I can safely leave the wrong bike
in the wrong place for the wrong length of time.
I'm really looking forward to the development of tracking
technology (A-La LoJack) to where it's practical to make bike
theft a *lot* more dangerous that it currently is.
--
PeteCresswell
SMS
> Per Frank Krygowski:
>> Regarding locks, mine is a homemade coated cable, plus a small padlock
>> with a key. This isn't a high crime area, and I never leave the bike
>> unattended for hours at a time, unless it's in a secure location (out
>> of sight, or under someone's watchful eye). The only times I've used
>> stouter locks have been in unfamiliar cities and foreign tours,
>> figuring I don't know the culture and so can't judge bike security.
>
> I made a conscious decision to not use anything except coated
> cable.
>
> My Rationale:
>
> - The coated cable prevents impulse/opportunistic theft.
>
> Bubba's not going to throw my bike into the back of his F150
> and some kid with emotional problems isn't going to jump on
> it and ride away for the amusement of his friends.
>
> - OTOH, the guy who steals bikes in Philly and ships them up to
> NYC for sale is going to cut that cable - and, I assume,
> anything else - in about two seconds....
>
> OK, maybe two minutes if he has to use a grinder on a
> heavy chain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbklkFuFk-4
>
> - Using something stronger than coated cable will eventually
> delude me into thinking that I can safely leave the wrong bike
> in the wrong place for the wrong length of time.
There's cable and there's cable. 9/16" 19 core x 7 strand steel cable is
very time consuming to cut.
Frank Krygowski
>
> I agree that I am an exceptional person, but let's not talk about me.
Nicely phrased! ;-)
>
> I'm talking about all those Dutch bicycle roads that go right to the
> store, school, dope/coffee house, etc. Would you stop riding your
> bike on those (apparently) direct routes just because someone told you
> to wear a helmet? I am NOT advocating for a Dutch helmet law, but
> really, If someone told you that you could put on a helmet and ride
> 300 meters to the store OR get on the road, ride 2K through winding
> city streets with uber-high gas prices, heavy traffic, etc., what
> would you do?
OK, to talk specifically about the Netherlands: the question is so
unrealistic, it's moot. There is no way on earth that a mandatory
helmet law is going to pass. Their society won't allow that, because
it values cycling too highly. If a MHL were to pass, it would never
be enforced.
To broaden that notion: Mandatory helmet laws are politically
possible only in places where cyclists are a small, oppressible
minority. This gives the necessary unfamiliarity that allows people
to pretend cycling is very dangerous, and the necessary isolation from
the consequences (as in "It doesn't matter to me, I never ride a
bike.")
In such places, almost all people must structure their lives so that
cycling (unlike motoring) is a highly optional activity. Nearly
everyone who rides will do so only when conditions are perfect. Adding
another possible disincentive reduces the amount of cycling.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
>
> Having said that, when is the last time you fell and hit you head
> while walking? I'm a total klutz, and I can't recall that ever
> happening to me. I can't think of a single person I've known
> that it happened to either. I'm sure that people slip on icy
> pavement... and somebody I know probably has... but I just never
> heard about it... but it's certainly an anomaly.
If someone did convince walkers to wear helmets - say, when things are
apt to be slippery or icy outside, for a start - you'd soon be able to
harvest lots of stories where people hit not their head, but their
helmet. Helmets are significantly bigger than heads.
By the same token, if you wore oversized styrofoam clown shoes around
the house all day long, they'd soon be covered with dents.
And by the logic of some helmet fans, each dent would be evidence of
protection from crippling fractures.
- Frank Krygowski
(PeteCresswell)
>There's cable and there's cable. 9/16" 19 core x 7 strand steel cable is
>very time consuming to cut.
Check out the video.
--
PeteCresswell
Jay Beattie
Anyone who has concluded that helmets make "no more sense" than a G-
string is a kook. Helmets are not G-strings, or leather boots, or
thorny crowns, etc., etc. Just for a refresher, this is a bicycle
helmet: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebicyclemuse/5105138498/
and this, too: http://www.flickr.com/photos/42968944@N03/4245238720/
The old lady was clearly returning from a hair appointment.
MHLs are not on my to-do list, but I sure get exhausted by the
hyperbole. -- Jay Beattie.
Frank Krygowski
>
> MHLs are not on my to-do list, but I sure get exhausted by the
> hyperbole. -- Jay Beattie.
Just as many of us get exhausted by the pro-helmet hyperbole. (85%
benefit, anyone?)
A major difference is, none of us helmet skeptics are working to make
our views the only legal choice.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
> helmet:http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebicyclemuse/5105138498/
>
> hyperbole. -- Jay Beattie.
Oh, and by the way, speaking of hyperbole:
Did you notice the caption on the photo you linked?
How can we tell those seniors were demonstrating cycling safety? Why,
because they wore helmets, of course! Safety = helmet, helmet =
safety, and anything else is irrelevant!
- Frank Krygowski
Lou Holtman
I'm not discussing whether helmets are effective or not. They not
necessary here in the Netherlands for daily use cycling. We have no problem.
Lou
MikeWhy
"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:0mk3d61ecqg0orokv...@4ax.com...
> Per Chalo:
>>You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
>>improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
>>helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
>>for the rest of the world.
>
> Lotta years ago, I quit riding my road bike when I realized that
> my bud's practice of carrying a loaded .44 magnum in his
> motorcycle's gas tank bag was starting to sound reasonable to me.
Yup. There's very little else less useful than an unloaded .44 magnum.
Loading it would seem to make good sense.
Jay Beattie
> >> Carl Fogel wrote:
> >>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
> >>> nonexistent—and resistance to them is fierce. Only 0.1% of Dutch
> >>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
> >>>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230424870457557425061616...
> > Andre Jute wrote:
> >> Don't be such a provincial jerk, Carl. The cycling milieu and motorist
> >> mindset in The Netherlands is completely different from that in
> >> States. The Dutch don't need helmets, Americans do.
> Chalo wrote:
> > You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
> > improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
> > helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
> > for the rest of the world.
>
> advocate carrying on a bike. I've got provocation a couple
> of times every day.
>
> Smack a door and dent it with a lock? Probably reasonable.
> Splatter texter's brains all over her stupid electronics
> laden piece of crap? Most juries would not be sympathetic,
> however just it may be.
And by the same token, why couldn't we shoot other cyclists? I
encountered a couple idiot, bullet-worthy riders on my way in to work
this morning. How about pedestrians, particularly those with eight
dogs on a multi-use path. I'd do the dogs, too. Blam, blam, blam.
Make my day! -- Jay Beattie.
James
> - forbid arm possesion for Americans because it is dangerous,
I agree. Americans with arms is a dangerous combination. They should
be amputated at birth, just like we do here for the Tasmanians born
with a second head.
JS.
SMS
> I'm talking about all those Dutch bicycle roads that go right to the
> store, school, dope/coffee house, etc. Would you stop riding your
> bike on those (apparently) direct routes just because someone told you
> to wear a helmet? I am NOT advocating for a Dutch helmet law, but
> really, If someone told you that you could put on a helmet and ride
> 300 meters to the store OR get on the road, ride 2K through winding
> city streets with uber-high gas prices, heavy traffic, etc., what
> would you do?
Well we know what would (or wouldn't) happen in several other countries,
where despite dire predictions, there was no decrease in cycling
following the imposition of a helmet law. I suppose it's possible that
someone, somewhere, decided to cut off their nose to spite their face
and give up cycling, but there's no evidence that helmet laws ever
caused anyone to give up riding, or discouraged new riders.
AMuzi
>>>>> "But among Holland's millions of bikers, helmets are almost
>>>>> bikers wear helmets, in contrast to 15% in nearby Sweden and 38% in
>>>>> the U.S., according to the British cycling organization CTC."
>>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230424870457557425061616...
>>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>>> Don't be such a provincial jerk, Carl. The cycling milieu and motorist
>>>> mindset in The Netherlands is completely different from that in
>>>> States. The Dutch don't need helmets, Americans do.
>> Chalo wrote:
>>> You know, the safety situation for American cyclists might actually
>>> improve if there were mandatory wear laws for guns instead of
>>> helmets. That would also present a more distinctively American image
>>> for the rest of the world.
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> As a cyclist and gun owner, I am the absolute last person to
>> advocate carrying on a bike. I've got provocation a couple
>> of times every day.
>> Smack a door and dent it with a lock? Probably reasonable.
>> Splatter texter's brains all over her stupid electronics
>> laden piece of crap? Most juries would not be sympathetic,
>> however just it may be.
Jay Beattie wrote:
> And by the same token, why couldn't we shoot other cyclists? I
> encountered a couple idiot, bullet-worthy riders on my way in to work
> this morning. How about pedestrians, particularly those with eight
> dogs on a multi-use path. I'd do the dogs, too. Blam, blam, blam.
> Make my day! -- Jay Beattie.
Exactly.
The normal aggravations of the day, what with humans
meandering all over the place, are just the background
hassle of our culture, easily forgotten by the next morning
usually.
Putting oneself in a position to overreact at the moment is
not a good idea.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
AMuzi
>> - forbid arm possesion for Americans because it is dangerous,
James wrote:
> I agree. Americans with arms is a dangerous combination. They should
> be amputated at birth, just like we do here for the Tasmanians born
> with a second head.
http://erzulies.com/images/durga_pic.jpg
James
> > Lou Holtman <lou.holt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> - forbid arm possesion for Americans because it is dangerous,
> James wrote:
> > I agree. Americans with arms is a dangerous combination. They should
> > be amputated at birth, just like we do here for the Tasmanians born
> > with a second head.
>
> http://erzulies.com/images/durga_pic.jpg
I'll raise you a real person picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lilcrabbygal/3463435864/
JS.
Michael Press
<946545c9-13fa-4976...@o15g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Jay Beattie <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
Does not prevent you answering the call.
--
Michael Press
Jay Beattie
> In article
> <946545c9-13fa-4976-bb4c-a4147b9ec...@o15g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Someone has to beat back the hyperbolators. I'm going to have an anti-
hyperbole rally in Washington, DC. It will be good, but just good --
not great. -- Jay Beattie.
Frank Krygowski
>
> I'm not discussing whether helmets are effective or not. They not
> necessary here in the Netherlands for daily use cycling. We have no problem.
>
> Lou
Despite propaganda to the contrary, we have no problem with bicycling
head injuries in America, either. All we have is an energetic
campaign to delude people.
Bicycling causes fewer than 1% of the fatal head injuries in the US.
Motor vehicle occupants are roughly 50%. Pedestrians are at far
higher risk per mile than bicyclists. There are way more than 8
million miles ridden on bikes per bike fatality. And massive uptake
of helmets doesn't seem to have improved any of the above - not that
it needs much improving.
There is - or at least, should be - such a thing as "safe enough."
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Sherman °_°
> SMS<scharf...@geemail.com> considered Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:12:01
> -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 03/11/10 1:29 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, I don't care if the Netherlands mandates helmets or not. I just
>>> didn't understand why someone would abandon a mode of transportation
>>> just because he or she had to wear a helmet. The Netherlands is
>>> probably the last place where riders need helmets, but if Queen
>>> stone house looking down at all those sweet bicycle avenues and refuse
>>> to ride. I'd put on my Orange helmet and go.
>>
>> While mandatory helmet laws are probably a bad idea, in the places
>> they've been implemented there has always been a decrease in cycling as a
>> result. See
>> http://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/c2024.pdf
> http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1194.html
> http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1033.html
>
>
> I fixed that for you.
Editorial changes to quoted text should be in square brackets.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
Andre Jute
> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> > Lotta years ago, I quit riding my road bike when I realized that
> > my bud's practice of carrying a loaded .44 magnum in his
> > motorcycle's gas tank bag was starting to sound reasonable to me.
>
> Yup. There's very little else less useful than an unloaded .44 magnum.
Oh, I wouldn't go quite that far. An unloaded 44 Magnum would make a
very convenient boat anchor for the cyclist who wants to load up his
bike to strengthen his legs before the big race. It works in other
sports, so why do cyclists ignore the wisdom of the ages?
> Loading it would seem to make good sense.
Yup, every cartridge should be weighed and the Magnum loaded with only
enough cartridges to finetune the weight. Any time the cyclist feels
there are too many cartridges in the cylinder he can reduce their
number by shooting an assistant coach. That should keep the buggers'
math honest!
Andre Jute
Not an assistant coach
Andre Jute
Jay Beattie
> Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> considered Wed, 3 Nov 2010
> 15:02:16 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write:> >> > I have to ask -- what did the kids who quit riding mopeds do for
> >> > transportation? Did they drive cars, ride bikes, skateboard? I don't
> >> > get the big issue with helmets -- why that would be a deal breaker for
> >> > cruising around on a moped. It's not like you're working up a sweat.
>
> >> > I understand that some people think that riding with a helmet makes
> >> > them look like a dork, or musses their hair or makes them hot -- so
> >> > they don't ride. That's the part I don't understand. I rode a bike
> >> > with a CAM walker fracture boot on one leg or the other for over six
> >> > months. http://orthotape.com/cam_walker.asp You would have to put a
> >> > boat anchor on my head before I quit riding.
>
> >> Okay, look at it this way. Say there is a grocery store in your
> >> neighborhood that won't let you in unless you are wearing ANSI
> >> certified protective eyewear with side shields, steel-toed boots with
> >> oil-resistant non-slip soles, and a hard hat.
>
> >> All these things reduce the risk of injuries that foreseeably could
> >> happen to you-- that have been demonstrated to occur repeatedly-- in a
> >> grocery store. And wearing those required items can be considered to
> >> offer some protection in almost any circumstances whatsoever. And the
> >> items are inexpensive and easy to wear. You can even buy them right
> >> at the store in question.
>
> >> So do you wear them to do your grocery shopping, or do you simply do
> >> your shopping another grocery store that doesn't require them? And
> >> how would you regard a person who decided it was not only expedient,
> >> but actually necessary to wear such safety gear to address the many
> >> risks of grocery shopping?
>
> >It would be cheaper than a Costco membership. Plus, I have seen
> >plenty of bars where the clothing you describe is worn voluntarily --
> >along with studded chokers, chaps and thongs.
>
> >I don't support MHLs, but I still find it amazing that there are
> >people who would give up a mode of transportation because they have to
>
> It's not wearing it that is the problem.
> It's being lumbered with lugging the damned thing around with you
> everywhere you go. That is why it doesn't affect the leisure or
> sporting cyclists, who only use a bicycle when they are going out
> specifically to cycle, but heavily impacts the utility cyclists who
> use a bicycle to actually travel to destinations not specific to the
> act of cycling.- Hide quoted text -
I put mine in my backpack or lock it to my bike -- or put it under my
desk at work. I also lug around gloves and the battery pack from my
headlight. Yes, I use a batterly light and not a generator. When I
go shopping by bike, the biggest lug is a cable lock. I think the
Dutch are more trusting or trustworthy. I don't lock my bike at the
local store which is only about a quarter-mile away because it caters
to the upscale organic crowd, and they're all too sickly to steal it.
I don't wear my helmet on that ride -- and in fact, I ride my son's
bike with platform pedals. He's 6'4" so his bike fits me perfectly,
and it gives me a chance to make sure his bike is not falling apart
and unsafe to ride. -- Jay Beattie.
Dan O
Then what the hell are you on about? Nobody else here is, either.
But some of are very derisive of other people's personal choice,
nonetheless.
Dan O
I got charged by a loose Dingo today - came all the way out onto the
road after me.
Tom Sherman °_°
> On Nov 4, 1:15 pm, Frank Krygowski<frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 4, 3:55 pm, Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> MHLs are not on my to-do list, but I sure get exhausted by the
>>> hyperbole. -- Jay Beattie.
>>
>> Just as many of us get exhausted by the pro-helmet hyperbole. (85%
>> benefit, anyone?)
>>
>> A major difference is, none of us helmet skeptics are working to make
>> our views the only legal choice.
>>
>
> Then what the hell are you on about? Nobody else here is, either.
Without gross overstatement of the protective benefits of foam bicycle
hats, there would be no mandatory use laws.
> But some of are very derisive of other people's personal choice,
> nonetheless.
Including several prominent Liddites™.
SMS
LOL, I can't ever remember anyone in this group coming out in favor of
an MHL.
What several of us have decried is the pathological lying of people like
Krygowski, Lee, etc., on the subject. They make up these incredible
stories because they have no facts to support their position.
Look at all the medical data on helmet usage, all the data on cycling
rates after MHLs are introduced, and the facts are clear. Injuries and
deaths always decrease as helmet usage increases, and despite the
desperate attempts to lie about it, there has never been a case of an
mandatory helmet law causing a decrease in the rates of cycling. Perhaps
cycling rates might have increased at a faster rate without an MHL, but
there's no way of knowing that.
You can see all the myths about helmets, and the corresponding facts at
"http://sites.google.com/site/bicyclehelmetmythsandfacts/".
RobertH
> I agree. Americans with arms is a dangerous combination. They should
> be amputated at birth, just like we do here for the Tasmanians born
> with a second head.
Why do you amputate the arms of a person born with two heads? To
prevent them from consuming all the cheesecake?
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> LOL, I can't ever remember anyone in this group coming out in favor of
> an MHL.
But to be fair, there's an awful lot you can't seem to remember on
this subject.
- Frank Krygowski
James
Interesting twist, but no, we amputate a head to make them look
"normal". Even with no arms and two heads, the cheesecake would still
quickly be consumed, along with the wolf nipple tips and jaguars
earlobes.
JS.
James
And even more you seem to all to often regurgitate.
JS.
MikeWhy
> On Nov 4, 9:06 pm, "MikeWhy" <boat042-nos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>>> Lotta years ago, I quit riding my road bike when I realized that
>>> my bud's practice of carrying a loaded .44 magnum in his
>>> motorcycle's gas tank bag was starting to sound reasonable to me.
>>
>> Yup. There's very little else less useful than an unloaded .44
>> magnum.
>
> Oh, I wouldn't go quite that far. An unloaded 44 Magnum would make a
> very convenient boat anchor for the cyclist who wants to load up his
> bike to strengthen his legs before the big race. It works in other
> sports, so why do cyclists ignore the wisdom of the ages?
That, or carry 3 extra liters of electrolyte beverage.
>
>> Loading it would seem to make good sense.
>
> Yup, every cartridge should be weighed and the Magnum loaded with only
> enough cartridges to finetune the weight. Any time the cyclist feels
> there are too many cartridges in the cylinder he can reduce their
> number by shooting an assistant coach. That should keep the buggers'
> math honest!
Well, I'm the head coach, but that doesn't decrease my appreciation for the
heft of an N-frame. I saw the other day a large frame 2-1/2" barrel
chambered in 10mm. I think I'm headed to the gun shop this weekend to find
out more about it.
Ben C
> On Nov 4, 6:07 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> It's not wearing it that is the problem.
>> It's being lumbered with lugging the damned thing around with you
>> everywhere you go. That is why it doesn't affect the leisure or
>> sporting cyclists, who only use a bicycle when they are going out
>> specifically to cycle, but heavily impacts the utility cyclists who
>> use a bicycle to actually travel to destinations not specific to the
>> act of cycling.- Hide quoted text -
>
> I put mine in my backpack or lock it to my bike
I just leave it hanging off the handlebar. Who's going to nick someone
else's sweaty old helmet?
> I think the Dutch are more trusting or trustworthy.
And lazy. But usually their lights are built-in and they have little
built-in locks on the back-wheel. Also if you're leaving your bike in the
car park next to 300 identical Gazelles there's some safety in numbers.
SMS
> On 2010-11-05, Jay Beattie<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 4, 6:07 pm, Phil W Lee<p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> [...]
>>> It's not wearing it that is the problem.
>>> It's being lumbered with lugging the damned thing around with you
>>> everywhere you go. That is why it doesn't affect the leisure or
>>> sporting cyclists, who only use a bicycle when they are going out
>>> specifically to cycle, but heavily impacts the utility cyclists who
>>> use a bicycle to actually travel to destinations not specific to the
>>> act of cycling.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> I put mine in my backpack or lock it to my bike
>
> I just leave it hanging off the handlebar. Who's going to nick someone
> else's sweaty old helmet?
Precisely. No one wants to wear it, and it has no resale value.
>
>> I think the Dutch are more trusting or trustworthy.
>
> And lazy. But usually their lights are built-in and they have little
> built-in locks on the back-wheel.
I put in one of those locks on my "around town" bike. It's great.
Peter Cole
> Jay Beattie<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> considered Wed, 3 Nov 2010
> It's being lumbered with lugging the damned thing around with you
> everywhere you go. That is why it doesn't affect the leisure or
> sporting cyclists, who only use a bicycle when they are going out
> specifically to cycle, but heavily impacts the utility cyclists who
> use a bicycle to actually travel to destinations not specific to the
> act of cycling.
This has become a big problem for bike sharing programs in cities where
there are MHL's. Sharing a bike is one thing, but who wants to share a
helmet?
Duane Hébert
> On 11/4/2010 9:42 PM, Dan 0verman wrote:
>> On Nov 4, 1:15 pm, Frank Krygowski<frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Nov 4, 3:55 pm, Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> MHLs are not on my to-do list, but I sure get exhausted by the
>>>> hyperbole. -- Jay Beattie.
>>>
>>> Just as many of us get exhausted by the pro-helmet hyperbole. (85%
>>> benefit, anyone?)
>>>
>>> A major difference is, none of us helmet skeptics are working to make
>>> our views the only legal choice.
>>>
>>
>> Then what the hell are you on about? Nobody else here is, either.
>
> Without gross overstatement of the protective benefits of foam bicycle
> hats, there would be no mandatory use laws.
So then you ARE trying to make your view the only legal choice?
>> But some of are very derisive of other people's personal choice,
>> nonetheless.
>
> Including several prominent Liddites™.
And several prominent Luddites as well.
Frank Krygowski
> On 2010-11-05, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
> > I put mine in my backpack or lock it to my bike
>
> I just leave it hanging off the handlebar. Who's going to nick someone
> else's sweaty old helmet?
Back in the day when I wore one regularly, I had one stolen. I was
riding the 80 hilly miles to a relative's house, where I was to spend
the night before returning. I stopped in a convenience store to buy
some juice, which I took outside to drink as I rested. I forgot my
helmet on the counter.
Having finished my rest and getting ready to ride, I realized I'd
forgotten the hat, so I went back inside. The person behind the
counter said "Oh, a woman was in here just after you, she said she'd
give it to you." But she didn't. She drove off with it.
That happened north of Pittsburgh PA, in a state with a mandatory
helmet law for kids. Maybe she figured she'd save herself the cost of
buying her kid one.
- Frank Krygowski
Duane Hébert
My father used to tell me that some people will steal anything not
riveted to the ground and even then be looking for a hack saw.
I've had no reason to argue with that based on past experience.
SMS
> My father used to tell me that some people will steal anything not
> riveted to the ground and even then be looking for a hack saw.
> I've had no reason to argue with that based on past experience.
Some people sure, but most people aren't going to steal something that
they can't use or sell. A used helmet has no value, and the person low
enough to steal one just because the opportunity arises is probably too
dumb to use a helmet for its intended purpose anyway.